Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongues

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So a lack of works is a sign of lack of obedience. And therefore, as applied to tongues...?

If tongues are necessary for salvation, in the verse we are discussing, then all of these are necessary for salvation:
- cast out devils
- speak with new tongues
- take up serpents
- drink any deadly thing
- lay hands on the sick

Do you teach you must do all of the above list in order to be saved?


Mark 16:15-20 teaches this (and Acts 2:38 identifies with this as well).
1.Salvation includes two acts of obedience: Faith (believing) and baptism.
2. Signs (works if you will) follow that obedience.

Simple.

So... If you don't speak in tongues, are you saved, or not?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

If tongues are necessary for salvation, in the verse we are discussing, then all of these are necessary for salvation:
- cast out devils
- speak with new tongues
- take up serpents
- drink any deadly thing
- lay hands on the sick

Do you teach you must do all of the above list in order to be saved?


Mark 16:15-20 teaches this (and Acts 2:38 identifies with this as well).
1.Salvation includes two acts of obedience: Faith (believing) and baptism.
2. Signs (works if you will) follow that obedience.

Simple.

So... If you don't speak in tongues, are you saved, or not?

Yes, indeed, it IS simple. Which is why you seem to be avoiding the point about works, which is that nobody with zero works is saved even though works aren't done to be saved.

If one has never spoken in tongues, they have not the Biblical evidence of having received the Spirit. And if there is no evidence of receiving the Spirit, there is no basis for believing they have the Spirit. And if there is no basis for believing they have the Spirit, there is no basis for believing they are saved, unless one can be assured of salvation apart from having the Spirit.

One does not speak in tongues to be saved. Rather, one believes in Christ, Who testifies to one's faith by giving the Spirit. And the giving of the Spirit is accompanied by the individual speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance. It also results in works that demonstrate their continued faith in Christ. But one does not do works to be saved.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Yes, indeed, it IS simple. Which is why you seem to be avoiding the point about works, which is that nobody with zero works is saved even though works aren't done to be saved.

If one has never spoken in tongues, they have not the Biblical evidence of having received the Spirit. And if there is no evidence of receiving the Spirit, there is no basis for believing they have the Spirit. And if there is no basis for believing they have the Spirit, there is no basis for believing they are saved, unless one can be assured of salvation apart from having the Spirit.

One does not speak in tongues to be saved. Rather, one believes in Christ, Who testifies to one's faith by giving the Spirit. And the giving of the Spirit is accompanied by the individual speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance. It also results in works that demonstrate their continued faith in Christ. But one does not do works to be saved.

Salvation depends on two acts of obedience that one can do: Faith/repentance and baptism. The next act - receiving the Spirit, depends on the Lord, and is a sign that follows the initial act of being saved, per Mark 16:15 and Acts 2:38.

So, if one believes, repents, and is baptized, and does not receive the gift of tongues, are they saved, yes or no?

You see this is a subjective thing. What if you want to be saved, and seek and seek and seek and never receive the gift of tongues? What then?

This is the problem with the OP understanding. Can God choose NOT to give someone the gift of tongues, yet still fill them with His spirit?

Can we judge someone to not be saved when they have not spoken in tongues, because God has not gifted them with the tongue gift?

[covey]

Originally Posted by RonMurray

It's not a perversion of the gospel. I went to God and asked Him if it eas true that everyone who receives the Holy Ghost will speak in tongues. And He answered by leading me to Isaiah 28:11 & 12 and opened my understanding of it, and showed me the connection between that and what Jesus said in Matthew 11:28, and made me to know that it's true, that everyone who receives the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues. So this is what God Himself teaches.

Ron, John 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

A lot of people don't know this, but the Greek word for "sound" in this verse ishōnē. It literally translates a sound that can come from inanimate things like the wind, but when it comes from animate things, like a person, the sound comes from the voice and tongue of that person. Therefore, Jesus told Nicodemus, EVERYONE born of the Spirit will hear the sound of their voice that comes from speech. The books of Acts confirmns this sound is speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance.

Definition of phōnē:
1) a sound, a tone
A) of inanimate things, as musical instruments

2) a voice
A)of the sound of uttered words

3) speech
A) of a language, tongue

Aee above. We can rule out #1, However, #2 and #3 clearly explain where the sound comes from and how it is spoken when we are born of the Spirit.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Well, let's look at that "fallacious argument". If you don't speak in tongues, are you saved or not?

That's putting the cart before the horse. Your thinking is so twisted on this subject, I don't see how we can come to an understanding. Your mind is set on how you think I (and others like myself) believe, that no matter what Esaias or I say, we can't seem to shake you from your perception of it.

Until you realize that we're not saying what you claim we're saying, I'm not sure there's anywhere else to go in this discussion.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Jito463

That's putting the cart before the horse. Your thinking is so twisted on this subject, I don't see how we can come to an understanding. Your mind is set on how you think I (and others like myself) believe, that no matter what Esaias or I say, we can't seem to shake you from your perception of it.

Until you realize that we're not saying what you claim we're saying, I'm not sure there's anywhere else to go in this discussion.

That's fine. Call my thinking twisted, instead of discussing the issue. Gotcha. You don't have an answer, so instead you want to provide a rabbit trail to run down. lol. I'm not going to chase you. God Bless.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

That's fine. Call my thinking twisted, instead of discussing the issue. Gotcha. You don't have an answer, so instead you want to provide a rabbit trail to run down. lol. I'm not going to chase you. God Bless.

You're the one who keeps insisting what we claim isn't really what we claim. How else should I interpret that?

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Well, let's look at that "fallacious argument". If you don't speak in tongues, are you saved or not?

Okay, I'll try to answer you. If you haven't spoken in tongues, I would say that you haven't experienced the full new birth experience by receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Does that help to clarify anything for you?

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Jito463

Okay, I'll try to answer you. If you haven't spoken in tongues, I would say that you haven't experienced the full new birth experience by receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Does that help to clarify anything for you?

Thanks for your honest answer.

I agree partly. I believe that one hasn't experienced the fullness of the experience available if they haven't received the gift of tongues, but I also would never say that one is not saved who has not spoken in tongues, because the Bible just does not say that explicitly.

Mark 16 is the closest we have to any scripture in the Bible that says exactly what salvation is comprised of, and it does not include tongues in that.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Salvation depends on two acts of obedience that one can do: Faith/repentance and baptism. The next act - receiving the Spirit, depends on the Lord, and is a sign that follows the initial act of being saved, per Mark 16:15 and Acts 2:38.

So, if one believes, repents, and is baptized, and does not receive the gift of tongues, are they saved, yes or no?

You see this is a subjective thing. What if you want to be saved, and seek and seek and seek and never receive the gift of tongues? What then?

This is the problem with the OP understanding. Can God choose NOT to give someone the gift of tongues, yet still fill them with His spirit?

Can we judge someone to not be saved when they have not spoken in tongues, because God has not gifted them with the tongue gift?

So, one can be saved but not have the Spirit? Can one be saved and yet not born of the Spirit? Can one be saved, all the way to the end, and wind up not entering the kingdom?

And why did you switch to talking about "receiving the GIFT OF TONGUES"? None of us have argued one must receive the GIFT OF TONGUES to be saved.