|
Tab Menu 1
Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun! |
|
|
03-15-2007, 05:17 PM
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,289
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbpew
so let me try to get the criteria for the comparative consideration this thread is proposing:
some are looking to the GS of a member-minister fellowship organization to stand on the front of the boat (bow?) and chart the course of the faithful 'rowers' behind him.
To expect that role for the GS, one would have to move from fellowship with a member-minister organization to a denomination.
IMO, a cooperative among independant agents is the overarching character of a member-minister fellowship. Why do we long for (or place our hopes in) something other than what we have chosen to continue to be a part of?
We either are denominal or we are not.
I believe Nathanial Urshan did not assert his views as any form of central governance, and certainly not as requirements for continued fellowship. The premise was established before him and he provided a point of continuity with "them that are without". His stature was as statesman; his family name was viewed as among the pioneers of "searching the spirit for life choices established in relationship with God"
Haney will do and is doing a very similar role within a set of organizational behaviors established within a framework of a member-minister fellowship.
If we want to raise up/anoint a king, or some very, very, special man, it will be paid for by what we give up in our individual calling and election in Christ.
If you want central vision commanding the forward advancement of the troops, join a denomination, engage the political machine, pay your dues and wait for your big chance.
|
What? Are you kidding me? You need to go to the UPC website and order Brother Urshan's 1992 GC sermon.
I don't have the time to fully agree with you, I am going to have to come back in a while and do it in detail...
|
03-15-2007, 05:23 PM
|
|
Not riding the train
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 48,541
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by vrblackwell
There will be no split. A splinter maybe, but not a split.
Both of these men are great men of God who deserve our respect. They however, are two different men, with two different personalities and no doubt different ideas and visions.
I think it is silly to compare their successes and failures. Times were a lot different when Bro. Urshan served then they are now. And I doubt that Bro. Haney will serve the length of time that Bro. Urshan served.
However, in future years I am confident that I will be able to look back and honor and respect both men for their great contributions to the kingdom of God. I will choose to respect them for their successes, as opposed to criticizing them for any failure as I would want the same mercy and kindness shown to me.
|
Excellent points, VB! There are some things about the organization I don't like, but I sure have always liked these two men!
__________________
|
03-15-2007, 06:44 PM
|
|
www.capitalcommunity.ca
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,300
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neckstadt
Urshan to me had presence. He spoke at my Father's funeral in 1978.
He also was connected to the beginnings by his Father Andrew Urshan.
Haney just had a big church at the time of his election...
Just my thoughts no strife intended.
|
Sorry bud, have to chime in here. Haney just....hmmmm. JUST took a small established church and made it a juggernaut in the community, state, district, and world. His reach JUST has been world-wide,from small churches built overseas, to Bible schools being helped, to JUST millions of dollars given to missions.
His business savvy JUST has made his financial legacy last.
His restoration ministry has JUST helped many who struggle get back on their feet and go back to their callings.
His mentoring ministry has JUST launched hundreds of Apostolic ministries around the globe.
Just....puh-leeeze, you and I would be lucky if we could JUST tie his shoes,
And that goes out to the rest of you arm-chair quarterbacks too...JUST, whatever!
|
03-15-2007, 06:46 PM
|
|
www.capitalcommunity.ca
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,300
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd
one of the most dangerous attibutes a great leader has is a massive personality.
The danger comes when the leader is no longer the leader. Their presonality often leaves a hole that cannot be filled for any reason by anyone.
Some other man just as capable may be fully able to fill the shoes from a technical perspective but that personality thing becomes the defining thing.
We see this in many walks of life. the Post Regan era republican party has been in search for "Another Reagan" since 1988 but still has not found one.
The Devner Broncos are still looking for the next John Elway and still have not found one.
Brother Urshan was a masterful leader. I think Brother Haney has proven thru a lifetime of leadership in ministry that he is as well.
I dont think the problem is with either Brother Urshan or Brother Haney.
I think if there is any conflict or problem it is with us looking at brother Haney, defining the position he fills by Brother Urshan's PERSONALITY.
|
Great Ferd! You are one of the best!
|
03-15-2007, 07:32 PM
|
|
Registered Member
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 775
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by vrblackwell
There will be no split. A splinter maybe, but not a split.
Both of these men are great men of God who deserve our respect. They however, are two different men, with two different personalities and no doubt different ideas and visions.
I think it is silly to compare their successes and failures. Times were a lot different when Bro. Urshan served then they are now. And I doubt that Bro. Haney will serve the length of time that Bro. Urshan served.
However, in future years I am confident that I will be able to look back and honor and respect both men for their great contributions to the kingdom of God. I will choose to respect them for their successes, as opposed to criticizing them for any failure as I would want the same mercy and kindness shown to me.
|
Great Post my sentiments exactly!
|
03-15-2007, 07:52 PM
|
|
"It's Never Too Late"
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,415
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyman
Sorry bud, have to chime in here. Haney just....hmmmm. JUST took a small established church and made it a juggernaut in the community, state, district, and world. His reach JUST has been world-wide,from small churches built overseas, to Bible schools being helped, to JUST millions of dollars given to missions.
His business savvy JUST has made his financial legacy last.
His restoration ministry has JUST helped many who struggle get back on their feet and go back to their callings.
His mentoring ministry has JUST launched hundreds of Apostolic ministries around the globe.
Just....puh-leeeze, you and I would be lucky if we could JUST tie his shoes,
And that goes out to the rest of you arm-chair quarterbacks too...JUST, whatever!
|
Correction to my point. My intentions were not about a lack of leadership or ability on the part of Bro. Haney.
My mention of him just having a large church.
Was to define the men who voted for him because he had a big church.
There are many great men who would never even get a token look.
I have seen men build large churches before and then go to another situation and bomb.
It takes the right folks around you to build anything....
My intentions also were to give the Late Nathaniel Urshan his just due.
his legacy and life have passed.
The book is still open on Bro. Haney.
I meant no disrespect.
This is a very hard thread to post on.
|
03-15-2007, 08:17 PM
|
Registered Member
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,177
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd
one of the most dangerous attibutes a great leader has is a massive personality.
The danger comes when the leader is no longer the leader. Their presonality often leaves a hole that cannot be filled for any reason by anyone.
Some other man just as capable may be fully able to fill the shoes from a technical perspective but that personality thing becomes the defining thing.
We see this in many walks of life. the Post Regan era republican party has been in search for "Another Reagan" since 1988 but still has not found one.
The Devner Broncos are still looking for the next John Elway and still have not found one.
Brother Urshan was a masterful leader. I think Brother Haney has proven thru a lifetime of leadership in ministry that he is as well.
I dont think the problem is with either Brother Urshan or Brother Haney.
I think if there is any conflict or problem it is with us looking at brother Haney, defining the position he fills by Brother Urshan's PERSONALITY.
|
Ferd, GREAT post! I totally agree with what is bolded in red. Unless you have worked with Kenneth Haney, you have no idea of the kind of leader the man is. And the man DOES have charisma - just not the same type as Brother Urshan.
Like someone else stated.... we will could never really compare the effect that Brother Haney could have had on this organization with the effect that Brother Urshan had because he will not be in office as long as Brother Urshan was. And that could be a good thing.... I for one (and I think many others) personally think that Brother Urshan stayed in office too long. That is not to take anything away from Brother Urshan - I highly respect the man - but new blood was needed long before Brother Haney was elected. JMHO.
__________________
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11
|
03-15-2007, 08:19 PM
|
Registered Member
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,177
|
|
[/SIZE][/B]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annie
The huge difference that I see from where I am standing is,
Bro. Haney has no Jean Urshan for a wife!!!!!
|
No, Joy Haney is no Jean Urshan........... but you must not know Sister Haney very well if you think that is a bad thing!
Maybe you're standing in balcony by the cheap seats and can't see too well!
__________________
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11
|
03-15-2007, 08:45 PM
|
|
"It's Never Too Late"
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,415
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpenter
I was thinking after reading several posts and threads and I don't believe there has been a discussion on the differences between the two GSs of our generation. Brother Urshan held the scepter during some of the most difinitive times of the UPC, while Brother Haney is still trying to define his administration and legacy.
I am wondering what does/did Urshan have that Haney does not and vice versa.
I know for a fact that during the Urshan administration, the UPC had definition and objectivity, perhaps fueled by the 1992 AS, but nevertheless, I think after he passed from the scene, that is when the lines of the UPC became very fuzzy.
...and I am only sitting watching and listening for things from the peanut gallery.
I think a definition here goes beyond a comparison between the two men, I believe it carries the weight of the state of the organization as well.
|
My vote is the UPCI should limit the term of any new GS to 6 years. So the organization can move forward.
Nathan Eckstadt
|
03-15-2007, 09:53 PM
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,289
|
|
I am certain, again, based on the most prolific sermons and leadership decisions made by Brother Urshan (especially as I mentioned the 1992 GC sermon), were undeniably conservative.
I am curious, was Brother Urshan more or less conservative that Brother Haney?
Did Brother Urshan represent a united constituency, or was the organization divided? Some may think this question to be rhetorical.
Is history repeating itself?
I am wondering what would have happened had Brother Haney been the G.S. during the affirmation statement saga???
It appears that history could indeed be repeating itself and it causes me to wonder that if there is an exodus comparable to 1992 given the TV issue, how will Brother Haney react compared with how Brother Urshan reacted.
I have seen and heard of Brother Haney coddling all sides, the ultra-conservatives, the moderates, and on some issues, the more liberal. Maybe this is a sign of a good leader, but I just don't see Brother Urshan doing that...right or wrong, good or bad.
This isn't to call either brother in contempt.
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:23 PM.
| |