Apostles and Prophets?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

The phrase "apostles and prophets" is found only three times in the NT and two of those times in Ephesians. Does the phrase have to necessarily mean the same thing each time....the NT apostles and the NT prophets? or can it mean in one place the NT apostles and the OT prophets and in another place the NT apostles and the OT prophets? I agree with you on Eph 3:5 that for two reasons, 1) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men and 2) the word, NOW, is speaking of the NT apostles and the NT prophets.

I'm still not convinced that because this Eph 3:5 uses the word, prophets, to speak of the present day prophets that Eph 2:20 is doing the same thing. What do you think of this verse below if we add it into the mix?


2 Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

Prax, I'm not totally ruling out your claim that "the prophets" is speaking of the NT prophets in both places in Ephesians BUT I'm not convinced of it. I'll have to do some more searching in the word.

Given the context of Ephesians I'd say both times there it's the same thing

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Prax, your adding the word, now, to Ephesians 2:20.

I think you should search more to be absolutely sure Ephesians 2:20 is not referring to the OT prophets. I agree Ephesians 3:5 is referring to the prophets at that time.

If the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets of that day, does that mean the apostles and prophets of our day can add to that foundation in building the walls, rooms, roof, etc of the body of Christ? And would this imply a "progressive understanding" of the word of God, such as the doctrine of the Trinity?

No I am not adding the word NOW. Im quoting the Eph 3:5. I never quoted the other verse. I was drawing a conclusion
ESV Eph 3:5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.

Eph 2:20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,
Eph 2:21 in whom every building having been fitly framed together, grows into a holy sanctuary in the Lord;
Eph 2:22 in whom you also are built together for a dwelling place of God through the Spirit.
Eph 3:1 For this cause, I, Paul, am the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you nations,
Eph 3:2 if you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given to me toward you,
Eph 3:3 that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I wrote before in few words,
Eph 3:4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it is now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit,

[PMBrown]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Seeing the "now" that way is how I intend it...but that still presents some of us with the same conundrum

Eph 3:5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.

There was a hidden truth Paul is speaking of never before revealed to sons of men in OTHER generations as it has NOW been revealed TO His Holy Apostles AND Prophets.

The foundation that the church is built on are the NOW (their day) Apostles and Prophets. This can not be referring to OT prophets

The part in bold is exactly what I am getting at.

Right, it was a new truth revealed to the apostles and prophets. And according to the context in Ephesians, its definitely talking about a foundation built on the prophets and apostles that existed at the time the letter was written.
But we're all forgetting something:

The New Testament as we know it wasn't written yet! For us nowadays our foundation - the knowledge of the plan of salvation and who Jesus is - is based on the Bible. So for us, our foundation is what those apostles and prophets wrote as the Bible. But for the people back then, the Bible as we know it was yet to be assembled, and certainly no one had a copy of the New Testament. Their foundation -i.e. the plan of salvation, and the knowledge of who Jesus is - was based primarily on the testimony of the apostles and prophets who were living then. Only after hearing them proclaim the gospel could they go back to OT prophecies to check if it was true: like the Bereans in Acts! But their foundational knowledge was based on what the prophets and apostles told them.
This sheds some light on why prophecy was so important, and why it was so important to weed out false prophets. The Spirit of God would speak through prophets with revelation of who Jesus is. Thats why the book of 1 John 4:1-6 says what it does, and why Revelation 19:10 says the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
So, in light of all this, to use these verses to say that we are built on the foundation of modern day apostles and prophets with new revelation is to add something the text simply does not say. Now, this doesn't mean that the Spirit doesn't give new revelation to modern day apostles and prophets, but that revelation given to modern prophets and apostles are not our foundation. In fact, thats what the Mormons (and in a way, the Muslims) did - and see where that got them!!

The foundation of the apostles and prophets got written down as our Bible!!!

[Esther]

Originally Posted by PMBrown

Right, it was a new truth revealed to the apostles and prophets. And according to the context in Ephesians, its definitely talking about a foundation built on the prophets and apostles that existed at the time the letter was written.
But we're all forgetting something:

The New Testament as we know it wasn't written yet! For us nowadays our foundation - the knowledge of the plan of salvation and who Jesus is - is based on the Bible. So for us, our foundation is what those apostles and prophets wrote as the Bible. But for the people back then, the Bible as we know it was yet to be assembled, and certainly no one had a copy of the New Testament. Their foundation -i.e. the plan of salvation, and the knowledge of who Jesus is - was based primarily on the testimony of the apostles and prophets who were living then. Only after hearing them proclaim the gospel could they go back to OT prophecies to check if it was true: like the Bereans in Acts! But their foundational knowledge was based on what the prophets and apostles told them.
This sheds some light on why prophecy was so important, and why it was so important to weed out false prophets. The Spirit of God would speak through prophets with revelation of who Jesus is. Thats why the book of 1 John 4:1-6 says what it does, and why Revelation 19:10 says the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
So, in light of all this, to use these verses to say that we are built on the foundation of modern day apostles and prophets with new revelation is to add something the text simply does not say. Now, this doesn't mean that the Spirit doesn't give new revelation to modern day apostles and prophets, but that revelation given to modern prophets and apostles are not our foundation. In fact, thats what the Mormons (and in a way, the Muslims) did - and see where that got them!!

The foundation of the apostles and prophets got written down as our Bible!!!

Good post, IMO.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by PMBrown

Right, it was a new truth revealed to the apostles and prophets. And according to the context in Ephesians, its definitely talking about a foundation built on the prophets and apostles that existed at the time the letter was written.
But we're all forgetting something:

The New Testament as we know it wasn't written yet! For us nowadays our foundation - the knowledge of the plan of salvation and who Jesus is - is based on the Bible. So for us, our foundation is what those apostles and prophets wrote as the Bible. But for the people back then, the Bible as we know it was yet to be assembled, and certainly no one had a copy of the New Testament. Their foundation -i.e. the plan of salvation, and the knowledge of who Jesus is - was based primarily on the testimony of the apostles and prophets who were living then. Only after hearing them proclaim the gospel could they go back to OT prophecies to check if it was true: like the Bereans in Acts! But their foundational knowledge was based on what the prophets and apostles told them.
This sheds some light on why prophecy was so important, and why it was so important to weed out false prophets. The Spirit of God would speak through prophets with revelation of who Jesus is. Thats why the book of 1 John 4:1-6 says what it does, and why Revelation 19:10 says the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
So, in light of all this, to use these verses to say that we are built on the foundation of modern day apostles and prophets with new revelation is to add something the text simply does not say. Now, this doesn't mean that the Spirit doesn't give new revelation to modern day apostles and prophets, but that revelation given to modern prophets and apostles are not our foundation. In fact, thats what the Mormons (and in a way, the Muslims) did - and see where that got them!!

The foundation of the apostles and prophets got written down as our Bible!!!

Im talking about what the written word says now grammatically which implies, in Paul's words, they had two classes of people among them. Apostles and Prophets. That was the topic. Did they have real prophets in those days? It was never meant to ask if we are built on the foundation of MODERN prophets...where did I say that?

[Lafon]

If my understanding of the words of Luke 16:16 is correct (and I tend to embrace a belief that it is), then my question must be - Does not every member of the worldwide oneness apostolic pentecostal church hold the title as a "prophet" (that is to say, a "spokesman" for God)?

Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

It is my understanding that whenever Jesus made this statement He was in essence saying that God's method of dealing with mankind (and specifically the Israelites) prior to the beginning of the ministry of John the baptist, was by means of the law as proclaimed by His chosen prophets, however, since that time "every" member of His chosen people, Jew and Gentile, is "pressed" into the business of proclaiming the good news of the gospel message of salvation which was wrought by the atonement of His sacrificial death, burial and resurrection.

This explanation, to me at least, sounds much more plausible than any other that I have heard regarding the words of this passage of scripture, and if correct, then it should settle the question concerning the "prophets" of the early church of which apostle Paul noted.

Is not each person who endeavors to utilize the context of the sacred scriptures in an effort to influence the fundamental beliefs of another, or attempt to persuade them to accept, embrace and obey a particular doctrine, acting in the capacity as a "spokesman" for God (for that is the definition of the word "prophet")?

[ultrajet]

Prophet is a function and still works the same as the Old testament. But it doesn't mean that you are higher than others if you are a prophet

Also, gift of prophecy and an office of prophet is different.

Check this site for more information

http://www.takehisheart.com/propheto...ofaprophet.htm