Question on oneness doctrine?

[Esaias]

Is YHVH to be pronounced "yuh HOH vuh" or "yah HOH vuh"?

Is a sheva the same as a schwa? Thus "yuh HOH vah"?

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Is YHVH to be pronounced "yuh HOH vuh" or "yah HOH vuh"? Is a sheva the same as a schwa? Thus "yuh HOH vah"?

No, different.

Stress is on last syllable in Hebrew.

Ye-ho-VAH would be fine, the e can be ultra-short.

Plane taking off from Israel, more laters.

Steven

[Raffi]

Just a quick reply to the original question without getting too much into the semantics of correct pronunciation here:

At our congregation, we hold to the following theory about WHY two different names.

The Tetragrammaton (YHWH, Yehovah, Yahweh, Yahuah, etc) is the Eternal "HEAVENLY" Name of God Pre-Incarnation. It remains as the Heavenly Name of the Transcendent Aspect of God in His Divine Mode of "Father".

Yeshua is the "earthly" Covenant Name of God as God has become Incarnate in flesh as a man -- the man Yeshua (Jesus), and remains as the Covenant Name we Humans use to access and petition the Benefits of The Divine Covenant to usward. It is, therefore, the name of God in His Imminent, Covenantal Aspect and Divine Mode as "Son".

So "God" has two names entangled upon a single root syllable YHW/YHU . . . Yehovah/Yahweh/Yahuah is the Name of God in His Heavenly Transcendent Reality . . . Yeshua is the name of God in His Imminent, Covenantal Reality. We access God via His Imminent Reality because we are NOT transcendent beings. So we employ His name YESHUA (Jesus, Esu, Yaysus, Iso, Isho, etc.. There are arguments among Christians about how to pronounce this earthly, imminent name as you can see by reading this thread.)

Since the Imminent name Yeshua is the one revealed in The NEW Covenant for us to use, that's the one we should use to approach The Godhead. But it doesn't replace or cancel the Transcendental Name, it just makes God accessible to us Humans. When speaking about or referring about "God" in His Heavenly, Transcendental Mode as "Eternal Father" we usually use The Tetragrammaton according to the pronunciation we use in our Movement. But when making our requests to "God" according to Covenant, we petition the name Yeshua.

Does anyone have a response pro or con to this theological approach?

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Raffi

The Tetragrammaton (YHWH, Yehovah, Yahweh, Yahuah, etc) ... Yeshua is the "earthly" Covenant Name
.... usually use The Tetragrammaton according to the pronunciation we use in our Movement.

Allowing the "theological appraoch", the name of Yeshua == Yehoshua and matches up in the theophoric names with Yehovah. There are dozens of such matching names in the Hebrew Bible.

The words, or sounds, Yahweh and Yahuah never appear anywhere in Hebrew and Yahweh is only a scholatic conjectural fabrication.

By contrast Yehovah is in 1,000+ Hebrew manuscripts, matches the theophoric names throughout the Hebrew Bible and has about 15 supports as the proper pronunciation in Jewish literature. The name was never lost, and the Masoretic three vowels that give Yehovah are the accurate sound representation. And the use of the LORD is a perfectly fine and acceptable representation.

This problem is exacerbated by the fact that the "Yahweh" failure is actually the name of the devil entity "Jove" (Jupiter), as has been explained and is rather easy to understand. Why would we want to invoke the name of a devil entity, even accidentally or ignorantly?

Jupiter == Jove-pater == father Yahweh

Thus when the pagans like Antiochus Ephiphanes or the Romans in 70 AD or Hadrian in 135 AD would suppress the Heberw faith and the tetragram (Yehovah) their substitute pagan devil entity was Yahweh. At one point the Samaritan temple, under pressure from the pagans, was dedicated to Jupiter (Yahweh).

It was quite a sly trick of the deceiver to use German unbelieving pseudo-scholarship to convince Christians and Messianics to call upon a devil entity, thinking that is the God of Israel.

As "Yahweh" becomes more central in any group, there will be a tendency to leave Jesus and Yeshua and bring in his cohort Yahshua. And worship, prayer and praise and travail will tend to drift more and more towards Yahweh, with the Lord Jesus Christ being reduced to a secondary, auxiliary position. Sometimes the water baptism will lose its apostolic elements of the name of Jesus.

This is not just theoretical. It has occurred to various degrees in many places, and my original fellowship home, now named Homestead Heritage, has barrelled and skidded downhill. Eternity is the issue when Jesus is replaced with "Yahweh-worship."

Steven

[Raffi]

Thank you, Brother.

Yes, we have our particular way we pronounce The Tetragrammaton as well, but putting the pronunciation part aside for the time being, how does the above stated theory jostle theologically, namely in light of the fact that as Apostolics we believe that JESUS/YESHUA (whichever the case you choose to argue) is THE Name of "God" as "Father/Son/Holy Ghost". I think that was the intended point of the OP.

Thank you.

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Raffi

Thank you, Brother. Yes, we have our particular way we pronounce The Tetragrammaton as well,

And I believe that is far more consequential than the nuance of how you describe the deity of the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh.

Originally Posted by Raffi

Tbut putting the pronunciation part aside for the time being,

An error, because people have been intimidated by the yahwehista not to study, learn and then speak the truth about that creepy devil entity.

Originally Posted by Raffi

how does the above stated theory jostle theologically,

I understand, although I avoid the terms theology and theologically. Our goal is to experience God, to be in relationship, not to study God.

Originally Posted by Raffi

namely in light of the fact that as Apostolics we believe that JESUS/YESHUA (whichever the case you choose to argue)

Yeshua is equivalent for Jesus, but there is a common doctrine of not using the name of Jesus, which is a disaster

Originally Posted by Raffi

is THE Name of "God" as "Father/Son/Holy Ghost". I think that was the intended point of the OP.

Earthly covenant name of God looks consistent with the key verse (as long as you are using the Reformation Bible, the Received Text, as in the AV) :

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh,
justified in the Spirit,
seen of angels,
preached unto the Gentiles,
believed on in the world,
received up into glory.

Originally Posted by Raffi

The Tetragrammaton (YHWH, Yehovah ...) is the Eternal "HEAVENLY" Name of God Pre-Incarnation. It remains as the Heavenly Name of the Transcendent Aspect of God in His Divine Mode of "Father".

Noticing the correction with the ... removing the false names, I can say amen to that.

Originally Posted by Raffi

Yeshua is the "earthly" Covenant Name of God as God has become Incarnate in flesh as a man -- the man Yeshua (Jesus), and remains as the Covenant Name we Humans use to access and petition the Benefits of The Divine Covenant to usward. It is, therefore, the name of God in His Imminent, Covenantal Aspect and Divine Mode as "Son".

1 John 2:23
Whosoever denieth the Son,
the same hath not the Father:
but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

In general what you say after that is similarly scriptural, but I chaff at seeing the emphasis on "Yeshua". And the seeming reluctance to use and declare the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is beyond the dancing around and apparently using the devil name yahweh. Which, in my view, destroys the whole testimony.

Steven

[Raffi]

Okay, thank you Brother Steven.
Actually, I was expecting a little bit of kickback against the theory, but I am glad YOU approve (name pronunciations aside). But concerning the central assumption as I stated it above, does anyone else have any input for or against the theory? I would be interested to hear any one's criticisms and explore other group's theories as to how and why The Bible has revealed TWO distinct Names for ONE selfsame Deity. I remember some time back hearing Brother David K. Bernard talk about the subject also (although to Steven's dismay, Brother Bernard DID use the "Yahweh" pronunciation).

Peace

[Raffi]

Oh, btw, Steven . . . we don't use the pronunciation "Yahweh" in our fellowship.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Raffi

Okay, thank you Brother Steven.
Actually, I was expecting a little bit of kickback against the theory, but I am glad YOU approve (name pronunciations aside). But concerning the central assumption as I stated it above, does anyone else have any input for or against the theory? I would be interested to hear any one's criticisms and explore other group's theories as to how and why The Bible has revealed TWO distinct Names for ONE selfsame Deity. I remember some time back hearing Brother David K. Bernard talk about the subject also (although to Steven's dismay, Brother Bernard DID use the "Yahweh" pronunciation).

Peace

I find it interesting that the apostles, in teaching Greek speaking gentiles, never mentioned anything about a Hebrew pronunciation of God's name. Instead they follow the precedent set by the LXX in rendering the Tetragrammaton as "Kurios" (Lord), or else just referred to Theos (the Father). The only name they emphasized was Jesus Christ.

They did carry over Hebrew and Aramaic words and phrases, such as amen, maranatha, and alleluia. But they did not seemed concerned about any correct pronunciation of YHVH as being needful for gentile Christians to know.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I find it interesting that the apostles, in teaching Greek speaking gentiles, never mentioned anything about a Hebrew pronunciation of God's name. Instead they follow the precedent set by the LXX in rendering the Tetragrammaton as "Kurios" (Lord), or else just referred to Theos (the Father). The only name they emphasized was Jesus Christ.

They did carry over Hebrew and Aramaic words and phrases, such as amen, maranatha, and alleluia. But they did not seemed concerned about any correct pronunciation of YHVH as being needful for gentile Christians to know.

I am never ever using anything but Jesus for fear of drifting off into some whacked out Hebrews roots or demonic heresy.