The prophets of baal thrived for a while as well. We know how that cult ended up. The wpf leaders mislead people and deliberately caused division in non-salvational issues. They worship the brazen serpent of traditionalism. When people stopped drinking their kook aid they realized the only thing legalists wanted was status quo. WPF leaders were violating scripture long before becoming an official organization. Spiritually speaking the organization is no better than those who wear white hoods and burn crosses. Scripture is explicit about division over minor issues. Paul says in Galations that legalism is whitchcraft. When one bases their doctrine on legalism one may as well turn their Star of David into a pentegram. That's what it looks like in God's eyes/
[quote=TCSQ;573891][quote=Tim Rutledge;573872]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TCSQ
TCSQ,
Talk about embitterment.. the upc can't stand that the WPF is thriving.
THAT is becoming more and more evident given the tenor of much of what appears on this board by those who are not in that group.
I dont see any where near that kind of hate coming from the WPF crowd on this board to the UPC. Maybe its just the squeaky wheels though, they need to be greased or something. I am sure there are lots of people who do NOT belong to the WPF who dont take every opportunity they can to inmpugn its ledership, or its members.
__________________
A religious spirit allows people to tolerate hatred and anger under the guise of passion and holiness. Bill Johnson
Legalism has no pity on people. Legalism makes my opinion your burden, makes opinion your boundary, makes my opinion your obligation-Lucado
Some get spiritual because they see the light. Others because they feel the heat.Ray Wylie Hubbard
Definition of legalism- Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. TV
With all due respect, I went back over all the posts on this thread and can't for the life of me find anyone taking pot shots at other people of God, although some do indeed express their opposition to what they may see as the substitution of technological special effects for a genuine move of the Holy Ghost. No one seems to have taken their reservations or opposition seriously only attempting to refute those feelings by insult and dismissal.
I saw NO claims of "NEW FOUND" spiritual enlightenment, rather the expression of frustration at what ALL of us must see as a problem that faces each stage of our generational walk with God and that being of course the fearful desire that the NEXT generation will not receive a "relgion" as much as they receive a RELATIONSHIP with God.
As I said earlier the fear in back of all of this has NOTHING to do with lights or fog but rather with those special effects OFTENTIMES masking the absence of a genuine move of God. And to quote Justice Potter Stewart, even though "I may not be able to DEFINE that ...I KNOW IT WHEN I SEE IT!"
Overall the whining I see comes from people like Tv1 who has from the beginning betrayed some kind of minor obsession with taking every opportunity they have to denigrate the men who formed the WPF. And believe me they did not form it ALONE. Nor did they form it overnight.
But hundreds if not thousands of Apostolic Men and Women have for quite some time felt very uncomfortable with the trends and direction that they saw THEIR organization following and in several YEARS of behind the scenes conversations and meetings have pushed for and hoped for an alternative to that.
If someone wants to continue down that road, certainly no one will stop them, but this constant complaining about "whining" is coming from one of the biggest whiners out there. (At least when it comes to the WPF)
But to return to the theme of THIS thread I see NO ONE pointing at anything other than the aforementioned distaste (at least in their mouth) for what they see as the substitution of technology for an old fashioned move of the Holy Ghost.
And instead of jumping on them a wise man would take a moment and ask them WHY DO YOU FEEL THAT THAT IS LACKING?
TC, anyone with two brain cells can see what the reference to lights and such was all about. For some reason this has become a recurring criticism of the UPC (not just something mentioned in passing on this thread). My point was that I would much rather see a praise report without the subsequent pot shots.
My statement about newfound enlightenment and greater spirituality is something that I hear from both sides of the spectrum in a number of venues (both online and in person). It is just my observation that I personally don't see the fruit of it in people's attitudes and conversation.
Personally, I could generally care less what others are doing. I'm just glad to be a part of a revival church who pulls in and affects more unchurched people (who have never heard this Apostolic message)...than churches 3 times our size. Evangelism and reaching those who have never heard this message is what matters to me.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
TC, anyone with two brain cells can see what the reference to lights and such was all about. For some reason this has become a recurring criticism of the UPC (not just something mentioned in passing on this thread). My point was that I would much rather see a praise report without the subsequent pot shots.
I definitely would too, but really I think we can all draw back just a bit and see that there is a lot more to the criticism of lights and smoke machines than a criticism of the United Pentecostal Church, especially as ***IN*** the United Pentecostal Church there are many loyal members in the ministry who have no intention presently of leaving it that are deeply disturbed by the TREND that those things represent (at least to them) and feel the right to vocalize those feelings. (They Do have that right don't they?)
You look like you are at least in the same neighbourhood age wise as I am, maybe a tad younger, BUT I am sure you remember where all the psychedelic lights and disco balls and strobes and smoke machines had their origin.
I think every time I see them "One pill takes you up and the other makes you small and the ones your mother gives you dont do anything at all, ask Alice what the door mouse said, feed your head , feeeeeed your head."
Many of us who DO remember where those things first appealed to young people the atmosphere we found OURSELVES in and the aura that they created, we are asking ourselves repeatedly, what part of that atmosphere are they trying to recreate? The strobes, the flashes, the colours dancing around, all were part of simulating and STIMULATING acid trips. Is it any wonder that there is a very STRONG distaste to see those accoutrements of LSD and DRUG USE now being incorporated into Pentecostal worship? And dont you think that those reservations deserve to be heard?
********************THEN YOU SAID********************
My statement about newfound enlightenment and greater spirituality is something that I hear from both sides of the spectrum in a number of venues (both online and in person). It is just my observation that I personally don't see the fruit of it in people's attitudes and conversation.
I dont either! I feel that both the conservatives as well as the liberals are so far from the place that God is desperately trying to bring us to and we are debating yay or nay on Strobe Lights when we definitely need to move WAAAAAY past that. I will say though that I was referring to THIS sspecific thread and noted that the one who raised the voice about the pot shots and stuff was actually the very first one to go negative in his attack of what he perceives to be Baal Worshippers. ( Now do you see the real spirit that I am reacting to? IT'S CERTAINLY NOT YOUR POST , just wanted to point out that on THIS thread as best as I can tell the REAL negativity begins in posts 12 and 13 where the meeting was pretty much marginalized and the implication of falsification and lying about attendance was levelled by the same man who goes on in this SAME thread to level the charge of the WPF brethren being Baal Worshippers, having deceived ministers (as though the men who have left the UPC are all mindless idiots, weak minded individuals, rubes ripe for the pickin') To me and I ask you, do you see ANYTHING even approaching that level of vitriol being voiced towards the United Pentecostal Church on THIS thread? Because it seemed to me that what the claim was that it was on THIS thread that the pot shots all started and people were just responding to it, and frankly, its just not here.
***********************YOU SAID************************
Personally, I could generally care less what others are doing. I'm just glad to be a part of a revival church who pulls in and affects more unchurched people (who have never heard this Apostolic message)...than churches 3 times our size.
*********************I RESPOND***************************
I agree one TRILLION percent. I have been in churches where they put on Dowel Rod presentations and was deeply and wonderfully touched. I would have no problem with the strobe lights etc in some kind of appropriate setting like a play or something, but honestly Brother, in the WORSHIP service? Those lights have a definite affect on peoples senses, in fact they can have such an effect that people can and have literally gone into seizures from being in that atmosphere. Again, WHY would we want to bring this into the worship service for either our Older saints or our Youth?
Evangelism and reaching those who have never heard this message is what matters to me.
*************************I RESPOND************
Exactly! Evangelism, reaching the lost! That is done like Paul of Old said with the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost NOT by the technological special effects (and that IS what they are no matter how we cut it) of the day.
I think ultimately you and I are on the same page, however the issue really is NOT about the lights per se, but rather a lot of people who DO have the right to voice concerns and worries and even distaste for certain things are evidently the Priests and Prophets of Baal for doing so. Tell me someone doesn't have a bit of a screw loose at least in that area.
*************************I RESPOND************
Exactly! Evangelism, reaching the lost! That is done like Paul of Old said with the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost NOT by the technological special effects (and that IS what they are no matter how we cut it) of the day.
I think ultimately you and I are on the same page, however the issue really is NOT about the lights per se, but rather a lot of people who DO have the right to voice concerns and worries and even distaste for certain things are evidently the Priests and Prophets of Baal for doing so. Tell me someone doesn't have a bit of a screw loose at least in that area.
TC, I have had church in perhaps every imaginable circumstance...including services where the nearest electricty was hundreds of miles away so there was not even incadescent light. I have had church in the most cutting edge of sanctuaries and in mud huts and outside under a tree. I have sung where the only instruments were what you could make with your hands and this morning we had church with three keyboards, a drumset, two percussionist, and a B-3 organ. In all of those environments I have seen God move mightily and have learned to keep the main thing the main thing.
There will always be some differences in what we have and what we utilize. I'm sure that there are many instruments and technologies that we use for good that people also use for evil. I just hate to see so many people majoring in the minors.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
TC, I have had church in perhaps every imaginable circumstance...including services where the nearest electricty was hundreds of miles away so there was not even incadescent light. I have had church in the most cutting edge of sanctuaries and in mud huts and outside under a tree. I have sung where the only instruments were what you could make with your hands and this morning we had church with three keyboards, a drumset, two percussionist, and a B-3 organ. In all of those environments I have seen God move mightily and have learned to keep the main thing the main thing.
There will always be some differences in what we have and what we utilize. I'm sure that there are many instruments and technologies that we use for good that people also use for evil. I just hate to see so many people majoring in the minors.
Me too. However, right after I posted that last reply concerning the lights and stuff, I thought, "Why not surf the net to see, WHAT are the effects of this kind of thing. And so lo and behold on the VERY FIRST SEARCH THIS comes up, I will post the link here. Amazing to see virtually my whole opinion stated NOT in a religious forum but rather in a secular article.
I think that the real problem is (AGAIN) that the people who are uncomfortable with these lights are just not articulating the REASON why they feel that way very well, and as with most Pentecostal Issues, EMOTION takes over rather than a calm discussion. Without question the affect of these lights is to put people into an altered state, stimulating the brain through distorting the senses (In this case the visual senses) The more I consider it the more I am opposed to this as well. It certainly has not brought out the best in some of us I am sure, but ultimately something that CAN produce an altered state of consciousness is NOT something I want MY young people that I am responsible for exposed to, and have to ask why the desire for it?
Me too. However, right after I posted that last reply concerning the lights and stuff, I thought, "Why not surf the net to see, WHAT are the effects of this kind of thing. And so lo and behold on the VERY FIRST SEARCH THIS comes up, I will post the link here. Amazing to see virtually my whole opinion stated NOT in a religious forum but rather in a secular article.
I think that the real problem is (AGAIN) that the people who are uncomfortable with these lights are just not articulating the REASON why they feel that way very well, and as with most Pentecostal Issues, EMOTION takes over rather than a calm discussion. Without question the affect of these lights is to put people into an altered state, stimulating the brain through distorting the senses (In this case the visual senses) The more I consider it the more I am opposed to this as well. It certainly has not brought out the best in some of us I am sure, but ultimately something that CAN produce an altered state of consciousness is NOT something I want MY young people that I am responsible for exposed to, and have to ask why the desire for it?
I suppose, based on this article, we should get rid of them on our police cars are burglar alarms too. Also, we shouldn't use them for scientific purposes.
__________________ "Many people view their relationship with God like a "color by number" picture. It's easier to let someone else define the boundaries, tell them which blanks to fill in, and what color to use than it is for them to take a blank canvas and seek inspiration from the Source in order to paint their own masterpiece"
I suppose, based on this article, we should get rid of them on our police cars are burglar alarms too. Also, we shouldn't use them for scientific purposes.
No what you CAN suppose based on this article is that these lights are widely recognized as producing altered states of consciousness, were designed to enhance LSD and other HALLUCINOGENIC drug trips, can lead to such an altered state of consciousness that they can induce seizures and that the desire to bring these things into Pentecostal worship displays a very troubling trend.
Or were you now contending that we should bring in Police car lights and set off burglar alarms to enhance the worship as well?
Its not as ludicrous as it sounds as all THOSE special effects also go hand in hand with the direction that this is leading in.
No what you CAN suppose based on this article is that these lights are widely recognized as producing altered states of consciousness, were designed to enhance LSD and other HALLUCINOGENIC drug trips, can lead to such an altered state of consciousness that they can induce seizures and that the desire to bring these things into Pentecostal worship displays a very troubling trend.
Or were you now contending that we should bring in Police car lights and set off burglar alarms to enhance the worship as well?
Its not as ludicrous as it sounds as all THOSE special effects also go hand in hand with the direction that this is leading in.
Lol, to say that strobe lights induce an altered state of consciousness in and of themselves is to say that black hair dye causes brain cancer.
Sorry.
I would not disagree that prolonged exposure to strobe lights with mind altering chemicals could create an alternate reality, and yes, I wouldn't doubt that the drug scene utilizes strobe lights.
However, they utilize guitars, amplifiers, drums, keyboards, etc. too - are we now going to outlaw THOSE in our worship services?
Aren't there enough real evils to preach against without having to make something innocuous like a strobe light evil in and of itself?
And, I would be curious as to how many people who preach against strobe lights in worship use them in Easter dramas and CHristmas dramas?
__________________ "Many people view their relationship with God like a "color by number" picture. It's easier to let someone else define the boundaries, tell them which blanks to fill in, and what color to use than it is for them to take a blank canvas and seek inspiration from the Source in order to paint their own masterpiece"
[QUOTE=Michael Phelps;574004]Lol, to say that strobe lights induce an altered state of consciousness in and of themselves is to say that black hair dye causes brain cancer.
Sorry.
****I RESPOND*************************
Actually it is NOT. Strobe lights can and DO cause altered states of consciousness, perception and Can and DO cause seizures WITHOUT being combined with mind altering drugs. They are mind altering in and of themselves! Just because that is something you dont want to hear does not make it any less true.
I would not disagree that prolonged exposure to strobe lights with mind altering chemicals could create an alternate reality, and yes, I wouldn't doubt that the drug scene utilizes strobe lights.
However, they utilize guitars, amplifiers, drums, keyboards, etc. too - are we now going to outlaw THOSE in our worship services?
*****************************I RESPOND*****************
If they produce ALTERED STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS I would be among the first to shout YES!
*******************************YOU SAY*******************
Aren't there enough real evils to preach against without having to make something innocuous like a strobe light evil in and of itself?
You know, when different men of God start to raise a warning flag, it would do us well to consider that warning. It certainly is not a major issue with them, but the current need to confront this thing DOES MAKE IT SEEM THAT WAY. THEY SENSE THAT THERE IS MUCH MORE TO THIS TREND THAN MERELY A BLINKING LIGHT. You should know that. It is not a reaction to electricity. Not a reaction to smoke, there is definitely something else in back of all of this which is why people are becoming SPIRITUALLY and SOULISHLY or EMOTIONALLY worked up on this issue. Again WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?
****************YOU SAY*****************************
And, I would be curious as to how many people who preach against strobe lights in worship use them in Easter dramas and CHristmas dramas?
***************I RESPOND*******************************
Again in their place such as a play they may indeed have a place, although the more I look into the effect they are KNOWN to produce the more I would feel it is not something good to do.
I remember many years ago the effect that strobe lights had on ME.
I was NOT on drugs, had been in church for years. Some of us had gone to one of those Youth for Christ type haunted houses. As we were going through it, we went into one room where every thing was painted checkerboard black and white. The walls the floors and there was some guy in there bouncing around and HE was painted in black and white squares to blend in with the background. Well that was kind of dorky, no affect at all, but then they turned on the strobes, and in seconds I literally was losing consciousness, I have never had an epileptic seziure but that was all I can compare my reaction to, I felt my eyes rolling UP back inside my head, I reached out to the brother in front of me and said, somethings wrong ....., and started to buckle and go down to the floor, my friends literally had to grab me by each arm and lift me and walk me out of the room.
There is such a strong feeling FOR the use of these lights that it makes me wonder WHY!? Could it be that there IS a mild or even stronger state of altererd consciousness that these are producing that is almost druglike in its affect and that the voices so adamantly in demand of this are really betraying an almost addict like desire for their fix?
Just a thought, I really feel it is something much more akin to this picture in my mind......
Little kids being told they cant have something that they desperately want and throwing themselves down on the floor and kicking with their heels yelling................I WANT MY LIGHTS GIMME MY LIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGHTSS!!!!
If you are in a church or as a pastor have decided to have these lights... knock yourself out!
But the more I look into them and the KNOWN effect the have on people the more certain I am becoming that there definitely is a very serious trend toward something other than spiritual worship that the demand for these lights is symptomatic or indicative of.
If you are in a church or as a pastor have decided to have these lights... knock yourself out!
But the more I look into them and the KNOWN effect the have on people the more certain I am becoming that there definitely is a very serious trend toward something other than spiritual worship that the demand for these lights is symptomatic or indicative of.
Now, this I can agree with.
It's all about the application. With strobe lights, in my opinion, it's all about moderation. THe sun is good, but if you stare into it, you can go blind. Water is good, but if you get in over your head, you can drown. Music is great, but as we know, according to some, certain types of music can make a person want to do drugs, commit suicide, etc. (Ref: Steve Timmons, the anti-rock and roll preacher).
I appreciate your attitude toward this issue, and your study of the subject is admirable.
I really don't see anyone kicking and screaming and throwing a fit for their lights, they, along with me, are simply questioning the stance that some have taken AGAINST the lights and fog machines.
__________________ "Many people view their relationship with God like a "color by number" picture. It's easier to let someone else define the boundaries, tell them which blanks to fill in, and what color to use than it is for them to take a blank canvas and seek inspiration from the Source in order to paint their own masterpiece"
Linear Mode
