Should we teach others to rebel against standards?

[1ofthechosen]

Tithesmaster I have to go to church. I'll go in depth on all the passages in Revelations, when I get home. And I'll show why contextually James Strong was correct, and not Thayer on that one. Ttyl.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

What did Thayer say? "The presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church, of the overseers of the Christian assemblies, of kings and princes, A shepherd in the Near East was responsible for watching out for enemies trying to attack the sheep, defending the sheep from attackers, healing the wounded and sick sheep, finding and saving lost or trapped sheep, loving them, and sharing their lives and to earn their trust."

Do you know what "The" means above? The same as in Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

It's like "The President", denoting how many?

Wait, are you saying that a pastor is a president? Not at all, but that apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers have different functions yet are all elders. We actually don't have anywhere in the New Testament (definitely not in the old) where apostles, evangelists, pastors, prophets and teachers aren't elders of the congregation. Also they are to work themselves out of a job so to speak. Where they are constantly MATURING and BUILDING more MINISTERS. This insures that the Body can build itself in love Ephesians 4:16 .

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Wait, are you saying that a pastor is a president? Not at all, but that apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers have different functions yet are all elders. We actually don't have anywhere in the New Testament (definitely not in the old) where apostles, evangelists, pastors, prophets and teachers aren't elders of the congregation. Also they are to work themselves out of a job so to speak. Where they are constantly MATURING and BUILDING more MINISTERS. This insures that the Body can build itself in love Ephesians 4:16 .

No I'm not saying a pastor is the president. I was using that as a example saying that the word "The" denotes a title. Just as saying "the" president or "the" vice president. It was just a example. Thats what it is intended when saying the pastor, to go with all the things Thayer defined it with. I put in bold the stuff, considering that someone is saying it's not part of God's plan. There is no GOD APPOINTED MAN OF GOD in the NT.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Wait, are you saying that a pastor is a president? Not at all, but that apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers have different functions yet are all elders. We actually don't have anywhere in the New Testament (definitely not in the old) where apostles, evangelists, pastors, prophets and teachers aren't elders of the congregation. Also they are to work themselves out of a job so to speak. Where they are constantly MATURING and BUILDING more MINISTERS. This insures that the Body can build itself in love Ephesians 4:16 .

EB I like your explanation here. Pastors are elders among the congregation, similar to the other four components of the five fold ministry. They serve unique purposes, however they are all to work to edify.

I find myself wanting to defend chosen one about the post that you responded to, however I am truly not sure what he meant.

The crux of the matter seems to be that he believes that pastors are angels, based upon them being messengers. If that were the criteria for being an angel, wouldn’t all of the five fold ministers be angels as well. Even your mailman could be an angel. At some point we have to define angel more narrowly.

EB, what is your opinion on the seven stars in Revelation, which are said to be angels, being the pastors of the seven churches?

Also the elect angels in 1Timothy 5:21? Are they pastors? Are they even human beings? Or are they heavenly beings?

I believe they are all heavenly beings.

[1ofthechosen]

In Revelation 1:12-20 the text draws a picture. In verse 12-13 the text says "And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; [13] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle."
Now in Verse 19-20 the text explains it "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; [20] The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches." Which we have discussed and He told him to "Write."

Now who are these angels? Ok in 2:1 of Revelation He tells John to "Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks." Then He gives praise unto the angel and the congregation in verse 2-3. While yet rebuking them in verse 4-5.

Then 2:8 He says "And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write." While He gives the angel and the congregation praise in verse 9-10.

Then in 2:12 He says "And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write." So in verse 14-16 we see "But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. [15] So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. [16] Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth." Then Jesus rebukes this angel who John is writing the letter to. So is He speaking of a angelic being or as Strong's says "a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor"?

But there's more but I'm going to leave it off here. Because the last 2 show enough. In 2:18 He says "And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write." So in verse 20-23 Jesus rebukes the church "Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. [21] And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. [22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. [23] And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." But now look now what it says in verse 24 "But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden." So we know Jesus wasn't talking to John, or an angelic being. Because if a angelic being was doing wrong he would be sinning and we know God didn't place demons over the church! This has to be a man. As is the same throughout. This shows that James Strong had the right interpretation by saying "a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor."

Which in light of that we can see 1 Timothy 5:21 is showing that "charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality." These angels these men of God have been "elected". Because as the scripture says in Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God." With that said Tithesmaster fighting against Gods way is as Gamaliel says in Acts 5:38-39 "now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: [39] But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."

This was said at church today and I'll leave you with this "God didn't say in His word you would understand everything, but He did say disobedience is as the sin of witchcraft. While He did give you the Word and say here is My Word and My principals apply to your life, and learn to walk in it!"

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

No I'm not saying a pastor is the president. I was using that as a example saying that the word "The" denotes a title. Just as saying "the" president or "the" vice president. It was just a example. Thats what it is intended when saying the pastor, to go with all the things Thayer defined it with. I put in bold the stuff, considering that someone is saying it's not part of God's plan. There is no GOD APPOINTED MAN OF GOD in the NT.

I believe you’re wrong. Insert teacher after “the”. It doesn’t make teacher a title. The elders does not make elders a title. The garbage man. The mailman. The child. The doesn’t make what follows either singular or plural, proper noun or common.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I believe you’re wrong. Insert teacher after “the”. It doesn’t make teacher a title. The elders does not make elders a title. The garbage man. The mailman. The child. The doesn’t make what follows either singular or plural, proper noun or common.

I'm saying in Thayers definition "the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church, of the overseers of the Christian assemblies" I'm denoting what "the" means here in that context.

Is as the same as in Isaiah 9:6 when it says "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." What does "The" mean there?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

I'm saying in Thayers definition "the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church, of the overseers of the Christian assemblies" I'm denoting what "the" means here in that context.

Likewise, in the example you have quoted, presiding officer, manager, director of any assembly, doesn’t make a title any more than carpenter lawyer or Indian chief. Or landscaper, or painter. It is a job description, it is not a title.

What do you do?

Are you the mower of lawns, are you the home builder or the garbage collector?

These are all descriptions of what you do. They are not titles. Are you a pastor, elder, teacher, evangelist or apostle? What is your job description in the kingdom of God? Notice that none of these are capitalized.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Likewise, in the example you have quoted, presiding officer, manager, director of any assembly, doesn’t make a title any more than carpenter lawyer or Indian chief. Or landscaper, or painter. It is a job description, it is not a title.

What do you do?

Are you the mower of lawns, are you the home builder or the garbage collector?

These are all descriptions of what you do. They are not titles. Are you a pastor, elder, teacher, evangelist or apostle? What is your job description in the kingdom of God? Notice that none of these are capitalized.

I'm saying it denotes there's not several or many In this context here. Though I have heard of Co pastor but thats more a modern day thing. I never have heard of that in a Apostolic church. Or in the Context of the 5 fold ministry we see in Epesians 4. While some of the roles of the 5 fold ministry could be carried out by many in the church body. The Pastor of an assembly as we see through Thayers definition would be carried out by one person in a assembly.

[FlamingZword]

Should we teach others to rebel against standards?

If those are only man-made standards, then absolutely 1,000,000,000% yes.