Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by Sean

I think that when Jesus said, concerning Ephesus.....11 He that hath an ear, let him hear
what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second
death. He means every believer of the Church Age.

Do you believe that the word directed to each church was given at different
times/intervals? You said "no".
It should have been phrased differently. Surely the word was given to all the
churches with no intervals; but did the prophesy BEGIN to be fulfilled at the same
time, or did each prophecy begin to be fulfilled in different eras?

Brother Villa

[mfblume]

The HOUR of temptation is not 60 minutes nor a time period so much as it is an EXPERIENCE.

Rev_3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

You cannot escape the TIME PERIOD this is referring to. The only way to escape the time period is the time-travel from before the start of the period to after it is over, and not miss a beat, as though that time period never occurred. If people are in heaven during this time period, they have not escaped the TIME PERIOD. They exist and are conscious when that time period occurs on earth.

Jesus prayed to be saved "FROM THIS HOUR".

John 12:27 KJV Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

What did he mean? A time period? Time-travel me past this time period so I do not even have the consciousness that it occurred, because I was not present when that time lapsed? Of course not!

He meant to be spared the EXPERIENCE of suffering.

That is what Revelation is talking about. Being SPARED THE EXPERIENCE, not being absent for a time period.

That was a then-cultural way of speaking of a bad experience one wanted to avoid, not a time period to be avoided. And this is one example of how 21st century people, living 2000 years after these things were written, and half a world away, do not understand manners of speech used then, and translate them into 21st century uses of those same words.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

His NAME is Jesus!



Do you believe that the word directed to each church was given at different
times/intervals? You said "no".
It should have been phrased differently. Surely the word was given to all the
churches with no intervals; but did the prophesy BEGIN to be fulfilled at the same
time, or did each prophecy begin to be fulfilled in different eras?

Brother Villa

I believe the church is taken as indicated in Rev 4:1, then the events begin sequentially, as seen in the following chapters.
It all happens in the span of 7 years...actually shorter, lest no flesh is saved.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The HOUR of temptation is not 60 minutes nor a time period so much as it is an EXPERIENCE.

Rev_3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

You cannot escape the TIME PERIOD this is referring to. The only way to escape the time period is the time-travel from before the start of the period to after it is over, and not miss a beat, as though that time period never occurred. If people are in heaven during this time period, they have not escaped the TIME PERIOD. They exist and are conscious when that time period occurs on earth.

Jesus prayed to be saved "FROM THIS HOUR".

John 12:27 KJV Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

What did he mean? A time period? Time-travel me past this time period so I do not even have the consciousness that it occurred, because I was not present when that time lapsed? Of course not!

He meant to be spared the EXPERIENCE of suffering.

That is what Revelation is talking about. Being SPARED THE EXPERIENCE, not being absent for a time period.

That was a then-cultural way of speaking of a bad experience one wanted to avoid, not a time period to be avoided. And this is one example of how 21st century people, living 2000 years after these things were written, and half a world away, do not understand manners of speech used then, and translate them into 21st century uses of those same words.

You make no sense.

God will keep the church FROM the hour of temptation that will come upon all the world to try them that dwell on the earth.

God did not keep Jesus FROM his hour but THROUGH it.

Your point is pointless.

[Originalist]

Sean is pre-trib. Why am I not surprised. "Church taken in Chapter 4". Tyical, horrible pre-trib hermeneutics.

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by Sean

I believe the church is taken as indicated in Rev 4:1, then the events begin sequentially, as seen in the following chapters.
It all happens in the span of 7 years...actually shorter, lest no flesh is saved.

Hm-mm. You seem to promote that the catching away of the saints is before
the tribulation. Which means that you must also espouse that the seals, though
opened, are still held at bay and not fulfilled. If that is true, according to you,
the church will not be privy to the coming apostasy nor will the "...man of
sin..." be revealed to her. Is that correct?

Brother Villa

[Esaias]

The rapture cult claims that there is no mention of the church on earth after Revelation ch 3, and therefore the church is in heaven after ch 3, and therefore the rapture must have taken place before ch 4 begins.

This is false.

First of all, it is false because - once again - there is NO ACTUAL TEXT STATING THE CHURCH IS RAPTURED BEFORE REVELATION CHAPTER 4 BEGINS. That is an assumption based upon a predetermined belief in the rapture doctrine. Just like trinitarian "proof texts" which are not proof texts at all, just INTERPRETATIONS which require a pre existing doctrine of trinitarianism. Nobody just reading the Bible would come away with a pre trib rapture belief. They must first hear the doctrine, THEN reinterpret the Bible to fit the doctrine.

Secondly, the church IS FOUND ON THE EARTH AFTER CHAPTER 3!

Ch 4 is the four living creatures and the 24 elders seated on thrones around the throne.

Ch 5 is the four living creatures, the 24 elders, and an innumerable host of angels, and the Lamb, in the throne room.

Ch 6 has saints who were martyred calling to be avenged. It is stated they had to rest a while longer until their FELLOWSERVANTS should be killed like they were. THIS IS PROOF THERE ARE SAINTS ON THE EARTH IN CHAPTER 6.

Ch 7 has the angels about to hurt the earth, but are told to wait until the servants of God had been sealed. THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS ON THE EARTH IN CHAPTER 7.

Ch 7 also has an innumerable company of saints around the throne out of every nation. Who are they? According to verse 14 they are those which "came out of great tribulation." The Greek is literally "which came out of the great tribulation." In fact, the Greek is actually MORE emphatic than any English translation could be - "they which came out of the tribulation the great." THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS ON THE EARTH DURING THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

Ch 8 has the angel offering the incense in heaven, "with the prayers of all the saints". Saints in heaven have no need to pray, they would be in the very literal presence of God. Therefore, THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS ON THE EARTH IN CHAPTER 8.

Ch 9 has the locust army from the bottomless pit being allowed to hurt ONLY those who do not have the seal of God. THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS UPON THE EARTH IN CHAPTER 9.

Ch 12 states explicitly that the dragon persecutes - in the earth - those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS ON THE EARTH IN CHAPTER 12.

Ch 13 describes the Beast arising from the sea and making war with the saints and persecuting them. THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS UPON THE EARTH IN CHAPTER 13.

Ch 14 declares "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth." THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS ON THE EARTH IN CHAPTER 14.

Ch 17 describes the great whore, Babylon, and chapter 18 announces her impending destruction at the hands of the Beast's horns, and a call is given to God's people to come out of Babylon to escape the judgements that are about to come upon her. THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS ON THE EARTH IN CHAPTERS 17-18.

Ch 20 describes the first resurrection, which includes those who had gotten the victory over the Beast and who had rejected his mark. THIS PROVES THERE WERE SAINTS ON THE EARTH DURING THE REIGN OF THE BEAST POWER.

So much for pre trib nonsense.

[Esaias]

The rapturists claim that all these mentions of the saints throughout the Revelation are "tribulation saints", people who "get saved" during the tribulation.

But, "Houston, we have a problem."

1. According to the rapture cult, the "restrainer" is the Holy Ghost, and the Spirit must be "removed" in order for the man of sin to be revealed, whom they claim is "The Antichrist". And to do this, God beams up the church (the "rapture"). So, according to them, the tribulation and the man of sin is ushered in when the Holy Ghost leaves the earth via "the rapture" when the church is taken out of the world (contrary to Jesus' prayer in John 17:5). But if that were true, then nobody could be saved during the tribulation, because the Holy Ghost (who is necessary for anyone to be saved) is "gone". If rapturism is true, then nobody COULD be saved during the tribulation, and therefore rapturism is self refuting.

2. The church is the people of God, the saints. If there are saints on the earth during the tribulation, then the church is on the earth during the tribulation. And the claims of rapturists are refuted.

3. There is no mention of the saints of God being resurrected except in Revelation ch 20. It is expressly called "the FIRST resurrection". It occurs AFTER the events of Revelation 19, the Second Coming, Armageddon, the destruction of the beast and false prophet, and the binding of satan. The saints therefore are resurrected at the BEGINNING of the thousand years, and this is the FIRST resurrection. According to rapturism, the saints have already been raptured some 7 or more years prior to the beginning of the thousand years. The thousand years would have been called "the thousand and seven+ years" if rapturism were true. The saints are resurrected at the end of the beast era, when the beast is destroyed, at the START of the thousand years. The "rapture" is the event in which the saints are resurrected, therefore the "rapture" takes place at the start of the 1000 years, when the beast is destroyed and satan is bound. And therefore the pre-trib rapture (as well as the mid trib and the pre wrath raptures) are refuted.

4. If the saints were raptured and resurrected seven years prior to the Millennium, then the first resurrection would be the second resurrection, and the second would be the third. Pre trib is Watchtower Society-level silliness.

5. Paul explicitly states the timeline of events of resurrections in 1 Corinthians 15, and specifically says "those that are Christ's at His coming". Thus the saints are resurrected at the coming of Christ. And the coming of Christ is what destroys the man of sin. Therefore the saints are resurrected during the same event in which the man of sin is destroyed. Which means the saints are on the earth during the rise, the revealing, and the career of the man of sin. And thus pre tribberism is refuted.

Etc etc etc.

[Esaias]

[Michael The Disciple]

Mike, I get that you believe a person will split hell wide open for having the wrong belief of when events will happen.

I never said that. One may not know the precise order of all the events of the endtime. The concern and urgency expressed by Paul to the Church deals with those who were disturbing the minds of the Church members by teaching them that Jesus could return at just any moment.

It is those same teachers whom I fear may be rejected of the Lord. They have the same message today as they had then. That the saints would not have to go through the great tribulation Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24. They were rebelling against the word of God and rejecting the truth as many are today.

I am not ashamed to say I fear for their souls. I am trying to open their eyes that they might understand and walk in the truth.

BTW I thought you told me several years ago you were post trib? If so why the offence over truth?