Gino Jennings On Soul Sleep

[Esaias]

Brother Blume said: Paul's confidence in, and desire to, be absent from the body to be present with the Lord was speaking in reference to the groaning he experienced in his body, and the better situation of not being in it and weighted down by the groanings it caused.

So Paul said he groaned to be in the "intermediate naked state"? Yet he specifically wrote:

2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

He specifically stated we do not groan for the unclothed or naked intermediate state, but rather for the clothed resurrected state.

[Esaias]

1 Thessalonians 4:17 says the manner we shall be with the Lord is via the resurrection. Therefore, there can be no literal "to be with the Lord" apart from resurrection. And therefore, Paul in 2 Corinthians cannot be saying he or anyone else will be "with the Lord" at death prior to the resurrection.

Paul is not describing an intermediate pre resurrection state in 2 Cor 5.

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Jesus said BOTH body AND SOUL can be destroyed. He most certainly did NOT say the body can be killed but the soul lives on.

Men can kill the body, but there is hope, called the resurrection. But in GEHENNA (which is NOT the grave, NOT hades, NOT Sheol, NOT where you go if killed by mere men) GOD HIMSELF will destroy not only the body but the soul as well. Gehenna is a garbage dump, and is used as a metaphor or symbol of the Judgment of God. The final judgment results in the permanent destruction of the wicked, thus the body AND soul are destroyed.

Physical death is a temporary situation. A saint can be confident that if this body is destroyed, they have another they will receive in the resurrection. Thus, they shall live on forever. But those facing the wrath of God have no such hope, they will be destroyed in the judgment.

It looks to me like Jesus' definition of soul and your definition of soul are different.
Your def says if the body dies the soul dies because the body and spirit make up the soul.
Jesus says that ones body dies but not necessarily the soul.
what Jesus calls the soul you call the spirit.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

It looks to me like Jesus' definition of soul and your definition of soul are different.
Your def says if the body dies the soul dies because the body and spirit make up the soul.
Jesus says that ones body dies but not necessarily the soul.
what Jesus calls the soul you call the spirit.

Nope.

Jesus talked about killing or destroying the body and soul in Gehenna. That places an immediate and definite context on the discussion: the Judgment Day.

Again, a man may kill the body, but the soul is not lost, it can live again in the resurrection. But God can destroy, not just the body, but the soul, "in Gehenna". Gehenna is not Hades or Sheol, the grave. It is the burning garbage dump outside Jerusalem, used as a metaphor or symbol of the fiery judgment of God, aka the second death.

Further, all this proves the (more important) doctrine of conditional immortality: the wicked will not live forever anywhere, but will be utterly destroyed and will be no more.

[Michael The Disciple]

Souls being slain.

Joshua 10:28

28And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain: and he did to the king of Makkedah as he did unto the king of Jericho.

Joshua 10:29-30

29Then Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, unto Libnah, and fought against Libnah: 30And the LORD delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it; but did unto the king thereof as he did unto the king of Jericho.

Joshua 10:31-32

31And Joshua passed from Libnah, and all Israel with him, unto Lachish, and encamped against it, and fought against it: 32And the LORD delivered Lachish into the hand of Israel, which took it on the second day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein, according to all that he had done to Libnah.

Joshua 10:34-35

34And from Lachish Joshua passed unto Eglon, and all Israel with him; and they encamped against it, and fought against it: 35And they took it on that day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein he utterly destroyed that day, according to all that he had done to Lachish.

Joshua 10-36-37

36And Joshua went up from Eglon, and all Israel with him, unto Hebron; and they fought against it: 37And they took it, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof, and all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining, according to all that he had done to Eglon; but destroyed it utterly, and all the souls that were therein.

38And Joshua returned, and all Israel with him, to Debir; and fought against it: 39And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining: as he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir, and to the king thereof; as he had done also to Libnah, and to her king.

The Israelites killed, or utterly destroyed many souls.

The Holy Spirit then INSPIRES the definition of SOULS in verse 40.

Joshua 10:40

40So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.

He left no soul alive. They were defined as ALL THAT BREATHED.

And according to Mr. Strongs the primary definition of soul is "a breathing creature".

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Souls being slain.

Joshua 10:28



Joshua 10:29-30

29Then Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, unto Libnah, and fought against Libnah: 30And the LORD delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it; but did unto the king thereof as he did unto the king of Jericho.

Joshua 10:31-32

31And Joshua passed from Libnah, and all Israel with him, unto Lachish, and encamped against it, and fought against it: 32And the LORD delivered Lachish into the hand of Israel, which took it on the second day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein, according to all that he had done to Libnah.

Joshua 10:34-35

34And from Lachish Joshua passed unto Eglon, and all Israel with him; and they encamped against it, and fought against it: 35And they took it on that day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein he utterly destroyed that day, according to all that he had done to Lachish.

Joshua 10-36-37

36And Joshua went up from Eglon, and all Israel with him, unto Hebron; and they fought against it: 37And they took it, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof, and all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining, according to all that he had done to Eglon; but destroyed it utterly, and all the souls that were therein.

38And Joshua returned, and all Israel with him, to Debir; and fought against it: 39And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining: as he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir, and to the king thereof; as he had done also to Libnah, and to her king.

The Israelites killed, or utterly destroyed many souls.

The Holy Spirit then INSPIRES the definition of SOULS in verse 40.

Joshua 10:40

40So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.

He left no soul alive. They were defined as ALL THAT BREATHED.

And according to Mr. Strongs the primary definition of soul is "a breathing creature".

I believe soul in all these scriptures means simply "living being".

soul as defined by Webster is Definition of soul. (Entry 1 of 2) 1 : the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life. 2a : the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe. b capitalized, Christian Science : god sense 1b.

It seems a person according to scripture can possess a soul and be a soul at the same time.
Gen 2:7..."be a soul"
3 John 1:2 "possessing a soul"

[Michael The Disciple]

Heb 4:12

12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

IMO "soul" in this verse speaks of the natural man as here:

1 Cor. 15:42-49

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Many times the soul simply refers to man himself which includes a body. Man also has a spirit. The word of God discerns where one starts and the other ends.

The same verse gives a parellism speaking of the joints and marrow (natural man, flesh) and thoughts and intents of the heart, (spirit", inner man).

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

I believe soul in all these scriptures means simply "living being".

soul as defined by Webster is Definition of soul. (Entry 1 of 2) 1 : the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life. 2a : the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe. b capitalized, Christian Science : god sense 1b.

It seems a person according to scripture can possess a soul and be a soul at the same time.
Gen 2:7..."be a soul"
3 John 1:2 "possessing a soul"

This is powerful truth.

It seems a person according to scripture can possess a soul and be a soul at the same time.
Gen 2:7..."be a soul"
3 John 1:2 "possessing a soul"

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

I believe soul in all these scriptures means simply "living being".

soul as defined by Webster is Definition of soul. (Entry 1 of 2) 1 : the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life. 2a : the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe. b capitalized, Christian Science : god sense 1b.

It seems a person according to scripture can possess a soul and be a soul at the same time.
Gen 2:7..."be a soul"
3 John 1:2 "possessing a soul"

You are getting closer!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Heb 4:12

12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

IMO "soul" in this verse speaks of the natural man as here:

1 Cor. 15:42-49

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Many times the soul simply refers to man himself which includes a body. Man also has a spirit. The word of God discerns where one starts and the other ends.

The same verse gives a parellism speaking of the joints and marrow (natural man, flesh) and thoughts and intents of the heart, (spirit", inner man).

I am thinking the Word being like a sword is a simile (or metaphor). And therefore "dividing asunder" is part of the metaphor/simile of the sword. A sharp two-edged sword can split joint and marrow apart. It can also "divide soul and spirit", that is, separate a living soul from its life-giving energy (spirit), or in simple terms, kill a man. That deadly efficiency is transferred to the rhema (Spirit-anointed prophetic preaching of the Gospel, see Eph 6:17) in that the rhema/logos can discern (or disclose) the thoughts and intents of the heart (1 Cor 14:24-25).

So I am saying the passage is NOT saying that "the Bible separates or distinguishes the soul from the spirit". Dividing of soul and spirit seems more a euphemism for taking a life, a function of a sharp sword, just like cleaving joints and marrow.

Which actually relates to the idea of God slaying enemies by His mouth, word, or sword that comes from His mouth, but that's another tangent.