Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Sanctuary > Deep Waters
Facebook

Notices

Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 11-02-2017, 12:13 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,408
Jehovah connected to Jesus (Jehoshua)

A couple of tweaks are needed.

First, I am not looking for every nuance, so I will be happy to tweak what I have if corrections or additions are needed. Also I use the Y and J interchangeably, ie. as equivalents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
The name Yehoshua, or the Aramaic form Yeshua
There are two forms in Hebrew.

The long form Yehoshua (which is translated Joshua in the AV 216 times and Jehoshua twice) can be five letters or six in the Hebrew Bible.
יְהוֹשֻׁעַ יְהוֹשׁוּעַ
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...gs=H3091&t=KJV

Blue Letter Bible is showing the six letter form, in the pic from the Gesenius it shows both forms.

The AV does have Jehoshua twice:

Numbers 13:16 (AV)
These are the names of the men which Moses sent to spy out the land.
And Moses called Oshea the son of Nun Jehoshua.

1Chronicles 7:27 (AV)
Non his son, Jehoshua his son.


And the short form Yeshua, יֵשׁוּעַ (which is translated in the AV as Jeshua, 29 times, mostly in Ezra and Nehemiah, also once in 1 Chronicles and once in 2 Chronicles )
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...gs=H3442&t=KJV

Ezra 5:2 has the similar Aramaic (using Hebrew letters) form וְיֵשׁוּעַ , also translated Jeshua in the AV.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/.../t_conc_408002

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
from whence we get the name Jesus, is a theophoric name, meaning, that the name of God is embedded within the Messiah's name.
You can see the theophoric element directly only in the long form:

Yeho-vah
Yeho-shua

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
In pagan ancient Greece, for one example, you have the goddess Aphrodite. But you also have the name Epaphroditus (See: Philippians 2:25 and 4:18). It is a distinct name, but the name of the goddess is nonetheless embedded in the name.

It's the same with Yehoshua (Jesus/Yeshua).
Reasonable enough, although I am not familiar with the Greek side of this example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
The Tetragrammaton, often written in English as YHWH (or, for example, among some Jews, YHVH), is, in Hebrew, yud hey vav hey or in modern Hebrew orthography (read from right to left):

יהוה‎

In Hebrew, the name Yehoshua looks like this:

יְהוֹשֻׁעַ

You can see then, that in the name Yehoshua, three of the four letters are represented, as follows:

יְ = yud or "Y"
וֹ = hey or "H"
וֹ = vav or "O"

Or, more simply:

Yud = Y
Hey = H
Vav = O
Here I think it is better to say that two letters with their vowels are identical. Placing the cholem "o" as the Vav does not look right.

Basically the:

Yud = Y - with the sheva vowel == Ye
Hey = H - with the cholem vowel == ho

Gives us the Yeho- theophoric component that is in dozens of Hebrew Bible names. (examples below.) The sheva vowel is a short e, or perhaps ultra-short, and the third syllable in Ye-ho-vah gets the emphasis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
This is the truncated form of the name of God in the Old Testament, often written in English as Jah or Yah
The abbreviated form does not match in that type of way. Some have said that it is an abbreviation of the first and last parts of the name. However, the short name being Yah from Yehovah more likely has to do with a common type of elongation of vowels that occurs in Hebrew words. Here we are in geek-tech-land, although a Hebrew grammar writer, Shadal (Samuel David Luzzato, 1800-1865) is very helpful with an explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
(The remainder of the name Yehoshua, that is, "-shua", is from the Hebrew word yasha, meaning to be safe, hence the meaning "Yah is Salvation").
Reasonable for the salvation. I am planning to do some checking as to whether it is proper to say the two forms have the same root, described as above.

And I would put it as "Yeho- is salvation." There is no Yah sound as a prefix in either the tetragram or in the Messiah's name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
For a comparison, the prophet Elijah, in transliterated Hebrew, is written as Eliyahu, noting that the y, h, and u (English "o" and "u" are represented by the same letter in Hebrew) represent the truncated form of God's Name (Elijah, therefore, is also a theophoric name).
Whoops. Here we have a problem.

The "o" in the theophoric names is a cholem, a dot high in the sky. The "u" or "oo" comes from a vav with a dagesh, a dot placed alongside, to the left, of the vav.

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
In fact many names found in the Bible are theophoric in nature, such as Isaiah or Yeshayahu, Jeremiah or Yirmeyahu, Adonijah or Adoniyah, Nehemiah or Nehemyah, and etc.
True, however you are missing the dozens of theophoric names that begin with Jeho- .

Here are some examples, with the AV spelling.

Jehoshua
Jehozabad
Jehozadak
Jehoshaphat
Jehonathan
Jehoiada
Jehoram
Jehoahaz

Here is a chart with many of these names with a little commentary that I placed on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...&theater&ifg=1

These names are a perfect match to the first two of the full vowels of the tetragram that gives us Jeho-vah. Thus, these names, along with the Masoretic text pointings looked at closely, and the many Hebraic references affirming continuity and knowledge of the name as Jehovah, really seal the tetragram issue.

Jehovah (Yehovah) is the proper representation (AV has it seven times, including compound names, other times LORD is the most common.)

"Yahweh" simply does not work at all. As I explained on another thread, it is actually the devil entity Jupiter trying to muscle its way into Christianity.

connecting dots - Acts 14 pagan Jupiter is yahweh
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=50557

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
So, it is correct to say that God's Name is embedded or inside of the name of Jesus, according to the Late Hebrew version of the name.
Since Yehoshua goes back to Exodus, and works perfectly, the "Late" is unneeded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Now, this theophoric name of the Messiah does not indicate positively or even negatively, that the name Jesus is the name of God. That is a Theological and Christological concern having naught to do with the grammar and nature of the name of our Lord.

For example: Jesus was not the only person in the Bible so named. Joshua, the son of Nun, in late Hebrew, is Yehoshua, as well. This doesn't make him God, however.

So, whether or not Jesus is God is not based on His name, but on the revelation given to us through the Holy Scriptures of Who Jesus is.

In fact, the revelation of the name of Jesus as given to Joseph by the messenger Gabriel was not so much on account of Christ's identity as God, but rather, on His role as Savior (e.g. "...he shall save his people from their sins..."; Matthew 1:21).

Therefore, the focus on why Jesus was named Jesus is not on the YHO or theophoric aspect of His name, but rather on the compounded -shua aspect of His name.

To discover the manner in which it can be said that Jesus is God, or that Jesus is the name of God, is not so much through the name Jesus, but rather, through Christ's other name, that is: עִמָּנוּאֵל‎/Immanu' el, or "With us is God" (the reason I italicized the word "is", is because it is implied in the Hebrew, but not literally present, since Hebrew does not have a verb form that matches or means "is").
Generally, the above all looks sensible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Therefore, in conclusion, the question in the original post is not an invalid or worthless question, but the answer to it, as given above, does not help to determine whether or not the Person of Christ is the same as the Person of God. That's a separate issue.
The OP:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broseanrichard View Post
Can anyone help me figure this out. The father/lord is translated in the Old Testament as Yahweh(YHWH). In the New Testament we call messiah yeshua (Jesus). If Jesus is GOD(Yahweh) how does this work with 2 different names?
had a big problem in using the faux "Yahweh". From that start it does not fit. This is why the know-nothing sacred namers in the USA in the 1930s fabricated the phony attempt Yahshua.

(And I do not use the terminology of comparing "Persons".)

Anyway, it looks to me that the OP is more concerned about the duality of names than the way to describe the deity of Jesus.

The name of Jesus:

Matthew 1:21 (AV)
And she shall bring forth a son,
and thou shalt call his name JESUS:
for he shall save his people from their sins
.

Clearly helps to make Jesus the representation and fulfillment of the one Saviour.

And it definitely helps to reinforce:

1 Timothy 3:16 (AV)
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh,
justified in the Spirit,
seen of angels,
preached unto the Gentiles,
believed on in the world,
received up into glory.


And it fits beautifully with:

Isaiah 9:6 (AV)
For unto us a child is born,
unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller,
The mighty God,
The everlasting Father,
The Prince of Peace.


As well as the verse referenced by Votive:

Matthew 1:23 (AV)
Behold, a virgin shall be with child,
and shall bring forth a son,
and they shall call his name Emmanuel,
which being interpreted is,
God with us.


The basic answer to the OP is that the name of Jesus is in fact closely connected to Jehovah. How you relate that to the "Jesus is God" question (or perhaps the "Jesus is God manifest in the flesh" question) is an interpretative issue, as Votive points out. However, the main point is to simply show the close connection, and let the interpreters take it from there.

Steven

Last edited by Steven Avery; 11-02-2017 at 01:15 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-02-2017, 05:33 AM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
Re: Jehovah connected to Jesus (Jehoshua)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
A couple of tweaks are needed.

First, I am not looking for every nuance, so I will be happy to tweak what I have if corrections or additions are needed. Also I use the Y and J interchangeably, ie. as equivalents.

There are two forms in Hebrew.

The long form Yehoshua (which is translated Joshua in the AV 216 times and Jehoshua twice) can be five letters or six in the Hebrew Bible.
יְהוֹשֻׁעַ יְהוֹשׁוּעַ
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...gs=H3091&t=KJV

Blue Letter Bible is showing the six letter form, in the pic from the Gesenius it shows both forms.

The AV does have Jehoshua twice:

Numbers 13:16 (AV)
These are the names of the men which Moses sent to spy out the land.
And Moses called Oshea the son of Nun Jehoshua.

1Chronicles 7:27 (AV)
Non his son, Jehoshua his son.


And the short form Yeshua, יֵשׁוּעַ (which is translated in the AV as Jeshua, 29 times, mostly in Ezra and Nehemiah, also once in 1 Chronicles and once in 2 Chronicles )
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...gs=H3442&t=KJV

Ezra 5:2 has the similar Aramaic (using Hebrew letters) form וְיֵשׁוּעַ , also translated Jeshua in the AV.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/.../t_conc_408002

You can see the theophoric element directly only in the long form:

Yeho-vah
Yeho-shua

Reasonable enough, although I am not familiar with the Greek side of this example.

Here I think it is better to say that two letters with their vowels are identical. Placing the cholem "o" as the Vav does not look right.

Basically the:

Yud = Y - with the sheva vowel == Ye
Hey = H - with the cholem vowel == ho

Gives us the Yeho- theophoric component that is in dozens of Hebrew Bible names. (examples below.) The sheva vowel is a short e, or perhaps ultra-short, and the third syllable in Ye-ho-vah gets the emphasis.

The abbreviated form does not match in that type of way. Some have said that it is an abbreviation of the first and last parts of the name. However, the short name being Yah from Yehovah more likely has to do with a common type of elongation of vowels that occurs in Hebrew words. Here we are in geek-tech-land, although a Hebrew grammar writer, Shadal (Samuel David Luzzato, 1800-1865) is very helpful with an explanation.

Reasonable for the salvation. I am planning to do some checking as to whether it is proper to say the two forms have the same root, described as above.

And I would put it as "Yeho- is salvation." There is no Yah sound as a prefix in either the tetragram or in the Messiah's name.

Whoops. Here we have a problem.

The "o" in the theophoric names is a cholem, a dot high in the sky. The "u" or "oo" comes from a vav with a dagesh, a dot placed alongside, to the left, of the vav.

True, however you are missing the dozens of theophoric names that begin with Jeho- .

Here are some examples, with the AV spelling.

Jehoshua
Jehozabad
Jehozadak
Jehoshaphat
Jehonathan
Jehoiada
Jehoram
Jehoahaz

Here is a chart with many of these names with a little commentary that I placed on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...&theater&ifg=1

These names are a perfect match to the first two of the full vowels of the tetragram that gives us Jeho-vah. Thus, these names, along with the Masoretic text pointings looked at closely, and the many Hebraic references affirming continuity and knowledge of the name as Jehovah, really seal the tetragram issue.

Jehovah (Yehovah) is the proper representation (AV has it seven times, including compound names, other times LORD is the most common.)

"Yahweh" simply does not work at all. As I explained on another thread, it is actually the devil entity Jupiter trying to muscle its way into Christianity.

connecting dots - Acts 14 pagan Jupiter is yahweh
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=50557

Since Yehoshua goes back to Exodus, and works perfectly, the "Late" is unneeded.

Generally, the above all looks sensible.

The OP:

had a big problem in using the faux "Yahweh". From that start it does not fit. This is why the know-nothing sacred namers in the USA in the 1930s fabricated the phony attempt Yahshua.

(And I do not use the terminology of comparing "Persons".)

Anyway, it looks to me that the OP is more concerned about the duality of names than the way to describe the deity of Jesus.

The name of Jesus:

Matthew 1:21 (AV)
And she shall bring forth a son,
and thou shalt call his name JESUS:
for he shall save his people from their sins
.

Clearly helps to make Jesus the representation and fulfillment of the one Saviour.

And it definitely helps to reinforce:

1 Timothy 3:16 (AV)
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh,
justified in the Spirit,
seen of angels,
preached unto the Gentiles,
believed on in the world,
received up into glory.


And it fits beautifully with:

Isaiah 9:6 (AV)
For unto us a child is born,
unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller,
The mighty God,
The everlasting Father,
The Prince of Peace.


As well as the verse referenced by Votive:

Matthew 1:23 (AV)
Behold, a virgin shall be with child,
and shall bring forth a son,
and they shall call his name Emmanuel,
which being interpreted is,
God with us.


The basic answer to the OP is that the name of Jesus is in fact closely connected to Jehovah. How you relate that to the "Jesus is God" question (or perhaps the "Jesus is God manifest in the flesh" question) is an interpretative issue, as Votive points out. However, the main point is to simply show the close connection, and let the interpreters take it from there.

Steven
Very good!
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-02-2017, 10:50 AM
thephnxman thephnxman is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Phoenix, AZ.: Baptized in the NAME of the Lord Jesus in 1982.
Posts: 2,065
Re: Question on oneness doctrine?

His NAME is Jesus!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broseanrichard View Post
Can anyone help me figure this out.
The father/lord is translated in the Old Testament as Yahweh(YHWH).
In the New Testament we call messiah yeshua (Jesus). If Jesus is GOD
(Yahweh) how does this work with 2 different names?
THERE IS ONLY ONE NAME

The problem is reading the scriptures in English, and having them
translated from two different languages. So we have the KJV written
in English, from the Hebrew and Greek.

YAH-WEH – God’s NAME as revealed to Moses in the Old Testament.
It denotes the NAME of Promise: for He has promised to save, deliver,
provide, justify, heal, etc., by that NAME.
YAH: means SAVIOR. God’s actual name.
WEH: The ONE who will do it by Himself. In other words, He who will
fulfill what He has promised. ie: The SAVIOR who will save by Himself.

YAH-SHUA – God’s NAME revealed in the New Testament. It reveals
how God fulfilled all the promises made to the believers.
YAH: means SAVIOR. God’s actual name.
SHUA: The ONE who did it by Himself. In other words, He who has
fulfilled all his promises. ie: The SAVIOR who saved by Himself.

Or have we forgotten that "...ALL the promises of God in Him are YEA,
and in Him AMEN...?
?
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-03-2017, 04:24 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,408
Re: Question on oneness doctrine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thephnxman View Post
His NAME is Jesus!
....
YAH-WEH – God’s NAME as revealed to Moses in the Old Testament.
...
YAH-SHUA – God’s NAME revealed in the New Testament.
Yahweh is a false representation of the tetragram that was foisted by liberal and unbelieving German scholars in the 1800s and tries to sneak into Christian circles, despite being the same name and sound as the Latin devil Jove (Jove-Pater == Jupiter == Yahweh Father).

Yahshua is not a name in any shape or form, and was only fabricated by the sacred name movement in the 1930s, by people who were not Hebrew-savvy, to try to give a companion name to Yahweh. (I have come in my Father's name.) A cohort of connivance.

If you want true representations:

Jehovah or Yehovah are names == the tetragram, JHVH (or YHVH.)

Yeshua or Yehoshua will be the Hebrew equivalent of Jesus, and could be appropriate in some circumstances e.g. in Israel (from where I am writing today.)

Thanks!

Steven

Last edited by Steven Avery; 11-03-2017 at 04:27 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-03-2017, 05:21 AM
Michael The Disciple's Avatar
Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 14,648
Re: Question on oneness doctrine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
Yahweh is a false representation of the tetragram that was foisted by liberal and unbelieving German scholars in the 1800s and tries to sneak into Christian circles, despite being the same name and sound as the Latin devil Jove (Jove-Pater == Jupiter == Yahweh Father).

Yahshua is not a name in any shape or form, and was only fabricated by the sacred name movement in the 1930s, by people who were not Hebrew-savvy, to try to give a companion name to Yahweh. (I have come in my Father's name.) A cohort of connivance.

If you want true representations:

Jehovah or Yehovah are names == the tetragram, JHVH (or YHVH.)

Yeshua or Yehoshua will be the Hebrew equivalent of Jesus, and could be appropriate in some circumstances e.g. in Israel (from where I am writing today.)

Thanks!

Steven
So are you saying Yehoshua or Yeshua are NOT appropriate here in the USA?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-03-2017, 11:40 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 31,124
Re: Question on oneness doctrine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
The name Yeshua has the name Yahweh in it.
it is a compounded name.
the name Yeshua actually comes from the combination of the words
Yahweh is salvation or Yahweh the savior.

so the son already has the name of the father in his own name.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-05-2017, 01:51 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,408
Re: Question on oneness doctrine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
So are you saying Yehoshua or Yeshua are NOT appropriate here in the USA?
They are not appropriate if designed to supplant or deny the name of Jesus. Which is often the case. I run into this sometimes with American Messianics.

For singing a Hebrew song, practicing Hebrew, reading a Hebrew NT, talking to someone with Hebrew savvy and limited English ... all fine.

Last edited by Steven Avery; 11-05-2017 at 01:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-05-2017, 04:51 AM
votivesoul's Avatar
votivesoul votivesoul is offline
Administrator


 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: WI
Posts: 5,440
Re: Question on oneness doctrine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
A couple of tweaks are needed.

First, I am not looking for every nuance, so I will be happy to tweak what I have if corrections or additions are needed. Also I use the Y and J interchangeably, ie. as equivalents.

There are two forms in Hebrew.

The long form Yehoshua (which is translated Joshua in the AV 216 times and Jehoshua twice) can be five letters or six in the Hebrew Bible.
יְהוֹשֻׁעַ יְהוֹשׁוּעַ
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...gs=H3091&t=KJV

Blue Letter Bible is showing the six letter form, in the pic from the Gesenius it shows both forms.
Correct, the second form is permissible as long as the kubutz is applied underneath the shin so as to direct the reader to pronounce the name with a long /u/, as in Yehoshua. Otherwise, without the niqqud, the correct pronunciation would have to be inferred.

Quote:
The AV does have Jehoshua twice:

Numbers 13:16 (AV)
These are the names of the men which Moses sent to spy out the land.
And Moses called Oshea the son of Nun Jehoshua.

1Chronicles 7:27 (AV)
Non his son, Jehoshua his son.


And the short form Yeshua, יֵשׁוּעַ (which is translated in the AV as Jeshua, 29 times, mostly in Ezra and Nehemiah, also once in 1 Chronicles and once in 2 Chronicles )
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...gs=H3442&t=KJV

Ezra 5:2 has the similar Aramaic (using Hebrew letters) form וְיֵשׁוּעַ , also translated Jeshua in the AV.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/.../t_conc_408002
Great examples!

Quote:
You can see the theophoric element directly only in the long form:

Yeho-vah
Yeho-shua
True. Our current English "Jesus" does not give off any indications of theophorism, either orthographically or phonetically (which is something I think ought to be reconsidered, lest many not comprehend the Hebrew derivation, meaning, and context as it relates to God's name YHVH.

Quote:
Here I think it is better to say that two letters with their vowels are identical. Placing the cholem "o" as the Vav does not look right.

Basically the:

Yud = Y - with the sheva vowel == Ye
Hey = H - with the cholem vowel == ho

Gives us the Yeho- theophoric component that is in dozens of Hebrew Bible names. (examples below.) The sheva vowel is a short e, or perhaps ultra-short, and the third syllable in Ye-ho-vah gets the emphasis.
The reason I suggest that not just two, but the first three of the Hebrew letters of the Tetragram (yud, hey, and vav) correspond to English Y, H, and O, respectively, in the name Yehoshua, is because if you look at names like Yehoshua, or Joel (pronounced Yo'el in Hebrew), it is seen that in each case, the letter vav is present in the corresponding location, and in each instance, the cholem is present, that is, the dot above and just to the left of the Hebrew letter vav, or וֹ, thus indicating that the vav in question is supposed to be pronounced like an /o/.

Additionally, vav, when the shuruk is present (a dot in the middle and to the left of vav, looking like this: וּ, vav is to be pronounced as a /u/. This is the case in the theophoric name Eliyahu, and even in the first form of Yehoshua. The underlined "u" in the proceeding sentence is the Hebrew letter vav. So, apart from the two different niqqud (one above and one to the side), we see that in many such names, the vav is designed to fulfill a mater lectionis, and so, be pronounced as a vowel.

Therefore, in the Tetragram, the corresponding letters for yud, hey, and vav are likewise represented in the name Yehoshua.

Notice in the Tetragram the following:

יְהוָ֣ה

The kamatz (the small "T" shape) is below the vav, not the hey. This often means an /a/ phoneme, but can also indicate an /o/ phoneme. So, if we take the vav to have a /v/ phoneme in order to create the name Jehovah, we would also have to consider the possibility that the kamatz underneath the vav suggests not an /a/, but rather, an /o/. Considering how these diacritics came about centuries after the Hebrew canon was written and sealed, and that so often, in Hebrew nomenclature, any name that has /o/ (in English) in it, has for a matching letter, the letter vav, with a cholem, I think it's pretty clear that in these various theophoric names, the vav that is present in them, that gives us an /o/ phoneme in English ought to be recognized as the very same vav of the Tetragram.

Quote:
The abbreviated form does not match in that type of way. Some have said that it is an abbreviation of the first and last parts of the name. However, the short name being Yah from Yehovah more likely has to do with a common type of elongation of vowels that occurs in Hebrew words. Here we are in geek-tech-land, although a Hebrew grammar writer, Shadal (Samuel David Luzzato, 1800-1865) is very helpful with an explanation.
Here again I assert differently.

Take the following theophoric names and see their corresponding Hebrew orthography:

- Elijah or אֵ֣לִיָּ֔הוּ, pronounced Eliyahu
- Jeremiah or יִרְמְיָ֖הוּ, pronounced Yirmeyahu
- Azariah or עֲזַרְיָ֙הוּ֙, pronounced Azar-yahu

or

- Jonathan or יְה֣וֹנָתָ֔ן, pronounced Yeho-netan (compare to Netanyahu)
- Jehoshaphat or יהוֹשָׁפָ֖ט, pronounced Yeho-shaphat.

All these and others like them, like the ones you have already named, all contain the Hebrew letter vav, the third letter of the Tetragram.

So, for example, Elijah means "Yahu [is] my God". Jonathan means "Yahu gives/gifts". There is no reasonable purpose for saying that the truncated form of the Tetragram when contained in theophoric nomenclature has to be reduced to simply yud and hey when it's perfectly clear that the third letter, namely vav is clearly present as well.

Quote:
Reasonable for the salvation. I am planning to do some checking as to whether it is proper to say the two forms have the same root, described as above.
My daughter's name is Yasha. We have thoroughly researched the matter, but of course, look into it. Here is a link to help you begin:

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3091.htm

Here is a quote from my Strong's from e-sword:

Quote:
A primitive root; properly to be open, wide or free, that is, (by implication) to be safe; causatively to free or succor: - ..X at all, avenging, defend, deliver (-er), help, preserve, rescue, be safe, bring (having) salvation, save (-iour), get victory.
Quote:
And I would put it as "Yeho- is salvation." There is no Yah sound as a prefix in either the tetragram or in the Messiah's name.
There is minimal difference between "Yeh" and "Yah" in Hebrew. The name Yehoshua in Hebrew contains the same niqqud below the yud as the name "Yah" from Psalm 68:4.

Quote:
Whoops. Here we have a problem.

The "o" in the theophoric names is a cholem, a dot high in the sky. The "u" or "oo" comes from a vav with a dagesh, a dot placed alongside, to the left, of the vav.
Maybe I didn't point that out clearly or somehow conflated the two types of niqqud for vav in my previous post, but I think I show above that you and I agree here.

Quote:
True, however you are missing the dozens of theophoric names that begin with Jeho- .

Here are some examples, with the AV spelling.

Jehoshua
Jehozabad
Jehozadak
Jehoshaphat
Jehonathan
Jehoiada
Jehoram
Jehoahaz

Here is a chart with many of these names with a little commentary that I placed on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...&theater&ifg=1

These names are a perfect match to the first two of the full vowels of the tetragram that gives us Jeho-vah. Thus, these names, along with the Masoretic text pointings looked at closely, and the many Hebraic references affirming continuity and knowledge of the name as Jehovah, really seal the tetragram issue.

Jehovah (Yehovah) is the proper representation (AV has it seven times, including compound names, other times LORD is the most common.)
An excellent list, well researched, and clearly given much time, which speaks to dedication and devotion.

Quote:
"Yahweh" simply does not work at all. As I explained on another thread, it is actually the devil entity Jupiter trying to muscle its way into Christianity.

connecting dots - Acts 14 pagan Jupiter is yahweh
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=50557
I recall the thread. I don't subscribe to the Yahweh theory, either.

Quote:
...
Since the rest of your post doesn't really address me, I've left it unquoted above as represented by the ellipses.
__________________
For anyone devoted to His fear:

http://votivesoul.wordpress.com/

Last edited by votivesoul; 11-05-2017 at 04:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-05-2017, 11:41 AM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
Re: Question on oneness doctrine?

I find it interesting God preserved no record whatsoever of the apostles teaching Greek gentile converts to use any "Hebrew pronunciation" of the name of either God or Messiah.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-05-2017, 01:10 PM
Michael The Disciple's Avatar
Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 14,648
Re: Question on oneness doctrine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
They are not appropriate if designed to supplant or deny the name of Jesus. Which is often the case. I run into this sometimes with American Messianics.

For singing a Hebrew song, practicing Hebrew, reading a Hebrew NT, talking to someone with Hebrew savvy and limited English ... all fine.
So is it inappropriate for Jews to use the English Jesus? If not why?

Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 11-05-2017 at 03:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Criticism of oneness doctrine- pinasamb Fellowship Hall 21 03-26-2013 06:43 PM
Oneness Doctrine:Going Deeper Michael The Disciple Fellowship Hall 11 09-06-2012 03:52 PM
Is This Apostolic Oneness Doctrine? Jekyll Fellowship Hall 11 11-20-2007 10:02 AM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by Salome

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.