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Old 12-15-2007, 12:36 AM
SDG SDG is offline
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When was Jesus GLORIFIED? POST RESURRECTION OR AFTER HIS ASCENSION OR OTHER?

John speaks about Jesus being glorified in various instances .... throughout his book ....
  1. Quote:
    John 7:39
    By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
  2. Quote:
    John 11:4
    When he heard this, Jesus said, "This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God's glory so that God's Son may be glorified through it."
    Quote:
    John 11:3-5 (in Context) John 11 (Whole Chapter)
  3. Quote:
    John 12:16
    At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.
    Quote:
    John 12:15-17 (in Context) John 12 (Whole Chapter
  4. Quote:
    John 12:23
    Jesus replied, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.
    Quote:
    John 12:22-24 (in Context) John 12 (Whole Chapter)
  5. Quote:
    John 12:29
    Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it, and will glorify it again." The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.
    Quote:
    John 12:28-30 (in Context) John 12 (Whole Chapter)
  6. Quote:
    John 13:31,32
    [ Jesus Predicts Peter's Denial ] 31When he was gone, Jesus said, "Now is the Son of Man glorified and God is glorified in him. 32 If God is glorified in him,[a] God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once.
    Quote:
    John 13:30-32 (in Context) John 13 (Whole Chapter)
We often teach that Jesus had a glorified body POST RESURRECTION ... yet some of us also teach the he was glorified after his ASCENSION when applying John 7:39 to "tongues or hell" doctrine?

WHEN WAS HE GLORIFIED? WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

Please support your answers w/ scripture.
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Old 12-15-2007, 01:04 AM
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Neck Neck is offline
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He told Mary in the Garden near the Tomb. John 20:17

Don't touch me I have not yet ascended.

He ascended and then appears unto them through a closed door.

Then allows Thomas to touch him.

He received his gloried body between the Garden near his tomb, his ascension and the room where he appears unto the disciples.

I would say he received his glorified state as he enters the gates in heaven.

Returns to his rightful home with battle scars and a form of humanity but without the nature of humanity.

He enters the gates in heaven with a peace offering for all time (The blood of the Lamb slain.)

As the hosts of Angels stand in formation.

Each seeing blood for the first time.

As he did not call them down to take him from the cross.

The Angels see the glow of this Eternal Embodied DNA that was to erase the sins of fallen Man!

I see the Arch Angel being handed the Trump of God.

I see a bright flash of light (As a picture for All-Time) shining off the Golden road to the throne.

Jesus stands at the center of Eternity, "Hero of the ages".

He steps to the throne as all the host can see.

There is no vail for this Mighty God alone, With hands outstretched he pours the blood from his right hand.

Thus to remit the sins of every man.

With all the host of Angel's round about, singing Glory to God in the Highest!

Amen!
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Old 12-15-2007, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neckstadt View Post
He told Mary in the Garden near the Tomb. John 20:17

Don't touch me I have not yet ascended.

He ascended and then appears unto them through a closed door.

Then allows Thomas to touch him.

He received his gloried body between the Garden near his tomb, his ascension and the room where he appears unto the disciples.

I would say he received his glorified state as he enters the gates in heaven.

Returns to his rightful home with battle scars and a form of humanity but without the nature of humanity.

He enters the gates in heaven with a peace offering for all time (The blood of the Lamb slain.)

As the hosts of Angels stand in formation.

Each seeing blood for the first time.

As he did not call them down to take him from the cross.

The Angels see the glow of this Eternal Embodied DNA that was to erase the sins of fallen Man!

I see the Arch Angel being handed the Trump of God.

I see a bright flash of light (As a picture for All-Time) shining off the Golden road to the throne.

Jesus stands at the center of Eternity, "Hero of the ages".

He steps to the throne as all the host can see.

There is no vail for this Mighty God alone, With hands outstretched he pours the blood from his right hand.

Thus to remit the sins of every man.

With all the host of Angel's round about, singing Glory to God in the Highest!

Amen!

So he ascended twice, Neck? Once before the book of Acts?

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  #4  
Old 12-15-2007, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post

So he ascended twice, Neck? Once before the book of Acts?

If this is true (not saying it is) could this have been the second coming?
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Old 12-15-2007, 08:14 AM
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Nathan,

I see the connection you have made for your conclusion that he was glorified between his apparition to Mary and his apparition to Thomas,
10 verses later. Are we sure there is accurate based on scriptural evidence?

Yet, in th KJV ... Jesus does say "Do not touch me ... " but did he really say this in that connotation of him not being yet glorified? Does HIS glorification happen based on his physical body being ascended to heaven, post resurrection, after his 3rd day appearance to Mary?

John 20:17

Mary Magdalene recognized Jesus only when he spoke her name, "Mary." She replied, "Rabboni" ("teacher"). It was then that Jesus told her not to touch him, giving as the reason for this the fact that he had not yet "returned" to his Father (John 20:17).

and then 10 verses later it states ...


Jesus Appears to Thomas


24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." 26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may[a] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

-----------------------------------------------

One writer gives a more plausible reason for him telling Mary this:

"The meaning of the original Greek in the New Testament here, though, conveyed a meaning more like "Don’t hold on to me," or "Don’t cling to me"—which Mary Magdalene, in her impetuosity and great joy at recognizing Jesus alive after what had seemed the irreparable loss of Good Friday, evidently attempted to do. (We know from Matthew 28:9 that the women embraced, touched, the feet of the risen Jesus when they saw him for the first time). Some modern versions of the New Testament such as the New American Bible and the Revised Standard Version accordingly translate the passage as, "Don’t cling to me," or "Don’t hold on to me," having dropped the word "touch" entirely.

But why did Jesus not want Mary Magdalene to touch or cling to him? Ten verses farther on in the same chapter of John’s Gospel, Jesus tells doubting Thomas to touch him: "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless but believing" (John 20:28). Jesus wanted to prove to Thomas that his glorified body was real, that he was no ghost or apparition, but that he had indeed risen from the dead.

That is why he gives as the reason why she should not touch him that he had "not yet ascended to the Father." As Mary Magdalene no doubt well knew, along with the other disciples of Jesus, Jesus had promised before his crucifixion, "A little while, and you will see me no more; again a little while, and you will see me" (John 16:16)"

Keep in mind, at first, she seemed not to recognize him .... in his resurrected body. She thought he was the gardener. [John 17:15]

"This non-recognition of their Master in his glorified body was the typical first impression of the disciples who encountered the risen Jesus. It happened on the road to Emmaus, as Luke relates (24:13–35). It happened to the group of the apostles on the shore of the Sea of Galilee (John 21:1–23). Mary Magdalene recognized Jesus only when he spoke her name, "Mary." She replied, "Rabboni" ("teacher"). It was then that Jesus told her not to touch him, giving as the reason for this the fact that he had not yet "returned" to his Father (John 20:17)."
--------------------------------------------

Also, Neck would you say that the Christ, or the Lamb, was glorified in the description you've given ???...

because Jesus said he had shared glory w/ the father from the beginning. ....

Below is the breakdown of the Greek to produce a more accurate version of John 17:5 as the Greek transliterated text -

Kaí nún dóxasón me sú Páter pará seautoó teé dóxee heé eíchon pró toú tón kósmon eínai pará soí.

An appropriate translation for John 17:5, reflecting the contrast between the glory Jesus shared in the transfiguration with the existence or condition of the world’s inhabitants reads as follows:

John 17:5 And soon, at the fit time, glorify me with Thyself Father, in the power of Your presence, with the magnificence, kingly dignity and honor I held together with You in preeminence to this world existence.” (TAT)

-----------------------------------

Clearly, Jesus had glorified God and shared glory w/ the Father, BEFORE his ministry, no? His prayer, in Gethsaname is to glorify, the Son so that the Son may glorify the Father.


1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Here is an outline I found in researching this that speaks of Jesus glory before coming to earth and during his ministry.

Quote:
Jesus’ Glory
1. Before coming to earth
a. Jn 17:5 Jesus had glory before the world began; his personal glory, entirely
separate from anything he did on earth.


2. During earthly ministry
a. Isa 53:2 his glory not visible during earthly ministry; looked like typical human
b. Jn 2:11 revealed his glory thru miraculous signs
c. Jn 11:40 revealed God's glory by raising Lazarus from dead
d. Jn 17:4 Jesus glorified Father by completing his assignment
e. Lk 9:29-32 appearance changed, clothes extremely bright: his glory in visible
form (Mt 17:2, 5 Mk 9:3) http://foxven.com/s-glory2.html
-----------------------------------------------------------

In addition, let's consider that after the Triumphant Entry when Jesus predicts his death in John 12....

A voice from heaven, the Father?, states that his name has been glorified but will glorify it again, through the Son.


John 12:


27"Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28Father, glorify your name!"
Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it, and will glorify it again." 29The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.
30Jesus said, "This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
3
2But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

34The crowd spoke up, "We have heard from the Law that the Christ[f] will remain forever, so how can you say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this 'Son of Man'?"

Also, doesn't Jesus refer to his being lifted up, or glorified ... as a reference to HIS DEATH, as evidenced by the passage just quoted?
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Old 12-15-2007, 09:26 AM
Coonskinner Coonskinner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post

So he ascended twice, Neck? Once before the book of Acts?

The Scripture indicates that He did, because he admonished Mary not to touch Him at that point "because i am not yet ascended to My father."

Later, He did invite Thomas to touch Him, which seems to indicate that He had ascended.


My personal opinion is that when Mary saw Him at the tomb, He was on His way to offer His own blood on the mercy seat in the Heavenlies in His role as High Priest.

The ascension is Acts was what Jesus referred to when He said, ""If I go not away, the comforter will not come."

The same Apostle who recorded those words also gave us the words you referenced in John 7.

So that had to be the glorification John was talking about.
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Old 12-15-2007, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coonskinner View Post
The Scripture indicates that He did, because he admonished Mary not to touch Him at that point "because i am not yet ascended to My father."

Later, He did invite Thomas to touch Him, which seems to indicate that He had ascended.


My personal opinion is that when Mary saw Him at the tomb, He was on His way to offer His own blood on the mercy seat in the Heavenlies in His role as High Priest.

The ascension is Acts was what Jesus referred to when He said, ""If I go not away, the comforter will not come."

The same Apostle who recorded those words also gave us the words you referenced in John 7.

So that had to be the glorification John was talking about.
But wasn't Mary also w/ this group of women, in Matthew 28???

8And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word. 9And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Would embracing his feet be in effect touching him???


Did Jesus indeed say not to touch him or not to cling/hold him for too long?

A writer on the topic states:


"This is no doubt because the Scripture passage in question" is "known in its Latin Vulgate version as "Noli me tangere," or "Touch me not."


The meaning of the original Greek in the New Testament here, though, conveyed a meaning more like "Don’t hold on to me," or "Don’t cling to me"—which Mary Magdalene, in her impetuosity and great joy at recognizing Jesus alive after what had seemed the irreparable loss of Good Friday, evidently attempted to do. (Again, we know from Matthew 28:9 that the women embraced, touched, the feet of the risen Jesus when they saw him for the first time). Some modern versions of the New Testament such as the New American Bible and the Revised Standard Version accordingly translate the passage as, "Don’t cling to me," or "Don’t hold on to me," having dropped the word "touch" entirely.


That is why he gives as the reason why she should not hold him that he had "not yet returned to the Father." As Mary Magdalene no doubt well knew, along with the other disciples of Jesus, Jesus had promised before his crucifixion, "A little while, and you will see me no more; again a little while, and you will see me" (John 16:16)"

For Jesus had also said that he was "leaving the world and going to the Father" (John 16:28)—that is, that he was "returning" to the Father, as he again told Mary this time around. He had also, of course, promised the disciples as well that he would send the Holy Spirit "to be with you forever" (John 14:16).

Lastly the Greek demonstrates this point even more clearly in John 20:17.... Jesus uses the word "hapto" when speaking to Mary ....

Hapto - to fasten to, adhere to
  1. to fasten fire to a thing, kindle, set of fire
Could the offering you speak of, Coonskinner, have been done before his encounter w/ Mary?

Also I see no reference to the term ascension or glorification in John 7 .... nor the term ascension being referred to in John 17 .... just a statement the Christ had not yet been glorified.
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Old 12-15-2007, 10:32 AM
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I would also like to submit to this discussion ... that I believe that Hebrews 9 is misapplied to this topic of Christ's glorification and understanding it.

Christ hung on the cross is the mercy seat.

Jesus said: 32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

One theologian elaborates saying:

Quote:
Based on a superficial reading of Hebrews 9:7 and 12 -- some Bible teachers have proposed that Christ took His literal blood into heaven and sprinkled it upon the heavenly mercy seat.

However, a detailed study of the passages in question leads to the conclusion that Christ did not offer His blood upon the heavenly mercy seat, but that His sacrifice for sin was completed at the cross of Calvary.

The basis for much of this erroneous view of the blood of Christ can generally be traced to the teachings of the Socinians in the seventeenth century and John Albert Bengel (1687–1752), a German Lutheran Greek scholar and textual critic, in the eighteenth century.
http://chafer.edu/journal/back_issues/v8n2_3.pdf
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Old 12-15-2007, 10:57 AM
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Steve Epley Steve Epley is offline
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Paul said sown a natural body raised a spiritual body.1Cor. 15:44 Thus He raised incorruptible glorified that is.
Yes I do think Jesus ascended twice. When He told Mary not to touch him for he had not ascended He was functioning as the Great High Priest carrying the blood to the Mercy Seat into Heaven itself to finish the atonement as pictured in the atonement. Heb.9:12
Then He returned and they were able to touch Him for he had fulfilled that act. And then ascended into Heaven until He comes and recieves His church unto Himself.
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Old 12-15-2007, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
Paul said sown a natural body raised a spiritual body.1Cor. 15:44 Thus He raised incorruptible glorified that is.
Yes I do think Jesus ascended twice. When He told Mary not to touch him for he had not ascended He was functioning as the Great High Priest carrying the blood to the Mercy Seat into Heaven itself to finish the atonement as pictured in the atonement. Heb.9:12
Then He returned and they were able to touch Him for he had fulfilled that act. And then ascended into Heaven until He comes and recieves His church unto Himself.
Elder .... I do not see how your quoting of 1 Corinthians 15:44 is prooftext that he ascended twice ....???

A careful reading of the text and passage you've provided ... all of 1 Corinthians 15 lends credence that our Victorious Lamb rose initially w/ a spiritual body ... incorruptible glorified .... w/ eternal life and having defeated Death.

We find the Creator, who blew life into the first Adam making him a living soul, breathing from the eternal life provided by His Sacrifice and Resurrection into his disciples who continued to believe.... on Him .... in John 20 ... as their GLORIFIED Savior. A glorification we both agreed had already happened by verse 22 of John 17:

22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

he later says:

29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may[a] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.


It is this Spirit of Christ, the breath of the Incarnate Word in us, that quickens us to his promise of newness of eternal life.
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