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Old 06-13-2008, 08:11 AM
SDG SDG is offline
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Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jesus?

--------------------------------
Prologue - The Sovereignty of God
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Last Wednesday night a visiting preacher told us that “God needed Judas to carry out His plan of salvation’. His statement has remained in my mind although it was made in passing. His message that night was on the sovereignty of God.

Romans 11:33-36 reads:

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?


For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.



One Christian writer describing the sovereignty of God says:

Quote:
We see this in many Scriptures. Ephesians 1:11 says "we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will..." First, notice that God works, or in other words "brings about," all things. Everything is brought about by God. Second, notice that God does this according to His own plan, "the counsel of His will." This plan was not governed by anything external to his own will. It is "the counsel of His will." Thus, "God both chooses what will happen and also works it out according to his plan."[2]

Thus, all things have their source in God's eternal decrees, all things are brought to pass by God's almighty power, and all things have as their ultimate goal God's glory. In Proverbs 21:1 we read "The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes." Daniel 4:35 says "And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, `What hast Thou done?'"[3]

Since God controls all things, this means that evil is also under the control of God. We see this explicitly in many verses. Psalm 105:25, speaking of the Egyptians in the time period of the Exodus, says that God "turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants." In Isaiah 10:5-15 we read of how God used the wicked nation of Assyria to carry out his judgements upon Israel. In Deuteronomy 2:30 we read "But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today." The crucifixion of Christ, which was the most sinful human act in all of history, was said to have been according to "the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God" even though it was "by the hands of godless men" that Christ was put to death (Acts 2:23; see also 4:28).[4]
And yet we know He is not the author of sin….

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Old 06-13-2008, 08:11 AM
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Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes

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For discussion
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Here’s the crux of the matter (and please don't think I've formulated any conclusions based on what I am submitting for discussion):

Many philosophers, Gnostics, atheists and even some Christians believe that the commonly held beliefs of what Judas represents in mainstream Christian theology produces the following dilemma:

Quote:
If Judas hadn't betrayed Jesus he would never have been able to redeem the sins of men. If Judas hadn't betrayed Jesus, Jesus would not have set us free and fulfill his purpose on earth.


Christianity teaches that Judas was a figure of evil, yet it also teaches we should thank God for sending His son to be sacrificed for our good. But doesn't this seem to suggest God was acting THROUGH Judas? And if so, why is Judas so condemned?

Also, if God knew in advance that Judas was going to betray Jesus, this suggests the whole event was predetermined. So, contrary to the Bible, Judas couldn't have been acting through his own free will, but the will of God.


So why is Judas so condemned, if, after all, HE allowed mankind to be redeemed?

http://allphilosophy.com/topic/950



1. Jesus had foreknowledge of Judas' future actions:

The bible says:

But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. (NASB) John 6:64


2. Jesus Chose Judas. Yet, Jesus chose Judas Iscariot as a disciple anyway,

Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him. (NASB) John 6:71

3. Jesus reveals the reason for Judas' future betrayal

Why Jesus Chose Judas. The main reason Jesus chose Judas is given to us in John 13:18-22,

I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.' . . . He became troubled in spirit . . . and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, that one of you will betray Me." The disciples began looking at one another, at a loss to know of which one He was speaking. (NASB) John 13:18-22

It was done so that the prophecies of old would be fulfilled.
The prophecy quoted here is Psalm 41:9. Judas was such an evil man that John 17:12 tells us that Judas is the son of perdition.

While I was with them, I was keeping them in Thy name which Thou hast given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. (NASB) John 17:


Also as part of the discussion ... I submit the argument made by some that Judas did not betray Jesus in the sense that is commonly held.

Various writers explain the two opposing views held by bible scholars as follows:


Quote:
Matthew 26:14-16 implies that Judas betrayed Jesus out of simple greed for the bribe money, whereas Luke 22:3 and John 13:27 suggest that the Devil entered into him and made him do it. But some biblical scholars have put forward another theory. They say that Judas wanted Jesus to lead a revolt against the Romans, and turned against him when it became clear that no revolt was planned.
Quote:
But most theologians contend that Judas did act in free will and should be punished for it. And in Matthew 26:24, Jesus says "woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born." Even so, the Catholic Church has no official position on whether Judas was punished. However, In Dante's Inferno he is condemned to the lowest circle of Hell, doomed to be chewed for eternity in the mouths of the triple-headed Satan.

Yet some people still argue that Judas shouldn't be blamed. Some scholars have suggested that he was merely the negotiator in a secret prearranged surrender, and that his later portrayal as a traitor is a historical distortion. Variations on this idea were put forward in the book The Passover Plot by Hugh J. Schonfield, and also in the controversial film The Last Temptation of Christ.

This idea surfaced again with the discovery of an ancient copy of a previously lost "Gospel of Judas". According to some scholars, this gospel suggests that Jesus showed special favor to Judas and gave him secret revelations. Later Jesus told him about the need for a betrayal and asked him to take the blame for it. But the only existing copy of this gospel is badly damaged, and much guesswork is involved in determining exactly what it says. As a result, questions have arisen as to how it really depicts Judas. In any case, because it probably wasn't written until the second century, most scholars doubt that it is a reliable source of information.
http://www.gospel-mysteries.net/judas-iscariot.html


Another writer brings to the table that the word betray is a mistranslation of the Greek text

Quote:
Author William Klassen suggests that Judas did not betray Jesus at all. 5 He suggests that the word "betrayal" found throughout English versions of the Bible is a mistranslation of the Greek word "paradidomi." An accurate translation would be "handed over."

Klassen suggests that Judas was only planning to give Jesus over to the Jewish authorities so that they could evaluate his claims. This theory cannot account for the word translated as "traitor" in Luke 6:16. The "traitor" could have been a mistake by the author of Luke, or a copyist's error.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/gospj3.htm


In Spanish, our bibles don't use the English word betray but rather "to hand over" as indicated by the Greek word paradidomi

Simón el cananita y Judas Iscariote, quien le entregó

-----------------------------------
Questions
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And the questions I bring, not pretending to have all the answers, ... before you are:

1. If the Judas' role in the Gospels was pre-ordained prophetically ... was it God's will for Judas to hand Jesus over? How does one reconcile this with free will?

2. If so, can it be argued that Jesus needed Judas? If so, how does one reconcile this with condemning Judas for this act that appears to be divinely pre-ordained?

3. Is our characterization of Judas fair when we vilify him as the one who betrayed Christ? Did not Peter betray him also? As did all those who were responsible for his crucifixion, including us, betray him? Or do you think is he fairly portrayed by most of Christianity?

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Old 06-13-2008, 08:32 AM
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Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes

A poster in another forum commented about this topic ....

Quote:
Unfortunately, I don't even get that far...

Also, if Jesus knowingly chose a "devil" to follow him, how can we assume that all respected preachers have good intentions? I assume Judas had a good reputation at some point, otherwise everyone would have wondered why he was an apostle in the first place...
Jim, as they say at ROL ... Well, c'mon now!!!

Back on topic ...
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:32 AM
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Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes

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Old 06-13-2008, 08:35 AM
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Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes

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Originally Posted by clgustaveson View Post
blaspheme
Is that a command? A comment? A concern?

Care to elaborate my sports junky friend?
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:39 AM
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Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes

i believe myself he used Judas greed to facilitate his plan to be delivered to the jews and thus be crucified for our sins, so he used Judas, my opinion, glad to see you danny, how is that girl, dt
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:51 AM
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Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes

1) God did not need Judas to betray him, there is a shadow set forth with this, the plot had been set long before the betrayal. All Judas did was divulge the location of Jesus, this situation was kind of like an "et tu Brute" type situation. There is no doubt without Judas it would have been fulfilled but with Judas we see the constant vacillation man faces. The hypocracy in Judas' heart is even more profound. Judas then hung himself, he wasn't banished to hell for selling Jesus, he even knew Jesus was aware of his upcoming betrayal. The fact is that Judas did not create the sentiment towards Jesus, he merely exposed his location.

2) God didn't need Judas, God didn't need Mary.

The irony is that Judas just had to wait a month before it wouldn't have mattered.
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:00 AM
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Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes

The questions posed will be answered as an individual according to that individual's view of Calvinism.

Foreknowledge vs Predestined:

Free will vs puppet in a play.
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:02 AM
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Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Encryptus View Post
The questions posed will be answered as an individual according to that individual's view of Calvinism.

Foreknowledge vs Predestined:

Free will vs puppet in a play.
And your thoughts on the matter ....
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:05 AM
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Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes

Dan

I think the Father foreknew what was in the heart of Judas. Thus, he put Judas in the position where he was needed (like pharoh). Judas' heart was what it was. God needed that type of heart for that type of situation, so God placed Judas there. This does not negate Judas' will. If Judas would have repented and not turned Jesus over, there would have been another person with a similar unrepentant heart who would have been willing to sale his soul.
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