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Old 07-10-2010, 01:06 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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UPC doctrinal contradiction

Ok, first of all I am a little bugged by something. The UPCI website does not publish the articles of faith. Yet, for doctrines of the UPCI, they publish a bunch of lame tracts..TRACTS! In one place I read that we (the UPCI) don't believe in creeds and articles of faith. That seems to be a contradiction itself. Why not publish the AOF on the website?

Well, that led me to this, pointed out by an anti-Oneness Trinitarian. He was making an issue of Oneness saying sins are forgiven by water baptism. I quoted the AOF saying sins are forgiven by faith when we repent. He quoted David Bernard's booik saying sins are remitted by baptism

"Baptism is important only because God has ordained it to be so. God could have chosen to remit sin without baptism, but in the New Testament church He has chosen to do so at the moment of baptism. Our actions at baptism do not provide salvation or earn it from God; God alone remits sins based on Christ's atoning death. When we submit to water baptism according to God's plan, God honors our obedient faith and remits our sin. "

"The New Birth" by David Bernard, chap. 6 entitled "Water Baptism"


What do you all think on this?
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Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


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  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
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  #2  
Old 07-10-2010, 01:14 PM
OilCityCajun OilCityCajun is offline
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

Remission is not the same as forgiveness. Repentence brings forgiveness, Baptism brings cleansing, Spiritual birth brings power to remain clean.

To use the same analogy Christ used in Matthew 12:43-45 and Luke 11:24-26, an evil spirit was cast out and after a time returned to find the "house" swept (repented), and garnished (baptized) but empty (not filled with the Holy Ghost). That spirit went and invited 7 more spirits even more evil than himself and started a commune.

Sweeping is good to keep the "cobwebs of sin" down, but baptism washes out the spider and the Holy Ghost keeps him from returning. Therefore, all three steps are crucial to becoming and remaining saved.

Another, more direct analogy would be this: Repentance stops <insert sin of your choice>, but could leave the <vehicle of aforementioned sin> in one's house. Baptism throws the <vehicle for sin> away. The Holy Ghost gives the power to resist accessing another <vehicle>.

Last edited by OilCityCajun; 07-10-2010 at 01:21 PM.
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  #3  
Old 07-10-2010, 01:16 PM
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Hoovie Hoovie is offline
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

It's been murky for a long time (remission/forgiveness) I still hear the thing about "forgiveness occurs at repentance" and "remission occurs at baptism" which of course does not acknowledge the fact the terms are used interchangeably at times.

About the "no creeds" position - it is likely fostered by the refusal to accept the Nicene creeds and others like it. Perhaps, they should publish the UPCIAOF "creed" along with it's development from the merger and other subsequent changes.
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I am a firm believer in the Old Paths

Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945

"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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Old 07-10-2010, 01:19 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by OilCityCajun View Post
Remission is not the same as forgiveness. Repentence brings forgiveness, Baptism brings cleansing, Spiritual birth brings power to remain clean.

To use the same analogy Christ used in Matthew 12:43-45 and Luke 11:24-26, an evil spirit was cast out and after a time returned to find the "house" swept (repented), and garnished (baptized) but empty (not filled with the Holy Ghost). That spirit went and invited 7 more spirits even more evil than himself and started a commune.

Sweeping is good to keep the "cobwebs of sin" down, but baptism washes out the spider and the Holy Ghost keeps him from returning. Therefore, all three steps are crucial to becoming and remaining saved.
Remission IS the same as forgiveness. Acts 2:38 uses the word "remission" in the KJV but in the greek it's the same word for forgiveness.
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #5  
Old 07-10-2010, 01:21 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

ESV Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

áphesis; gen. aphéseōs, fem. noun. from aphíēmi (G863), to cause to stand away, to release one's sins from the sinner. Forgiveness, remission.

Dictionary.com
REMISSION
1.the act of remitting.

2.pardon; forgiveness, as of sins or offenses.
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #6  
Old 07-10-2010, 01:22 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

The AOF don't say remission happens at baptism
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #7  
Old 07-10-2010, 01:22 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie View Post
It's been murky for a long time (remission/forgiveness) I still hear the thing about "forgiveness occurs at repentance" and "remission occurs at baptism" which of course does not acknowledge the fact the terms are used interchangeably at times.

About the "no creeds" position - it is likely fostered by the refusal to accept the Nicene creeds and others like it. Perhaps, they should publish the UPCIAOF "creed" along with it's development from the merger and other subsequent changes.
But the UPCI has an Article of Faith and other faith statements and loyalty oaths
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #8  
Old 07-10-2010, 01:30 PM
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Hoovie Hoovie is offline
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
But the UPCI has an Article of Faith and other faith statements and loyalty oaths
Understood. I don't shun creeds necessarily. The Apostles Creed works for me - with Catholic meaning "universal".
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Creed-apos.jpg (81.2 KB, 19 views)
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005

I am a firm believer in the Old Paths

Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945

"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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  #9  
Old 07-10-2010, 01:43 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie View Post
Understood. I don't shun creeds necessarily. The Apostles Creed works for me - with Catholic meaning "universal".
Right. A "creed" or "Article of faith" simply serves to declare what it is we believe. I think it's rather an embarrassment to have tracts serve as a "what we believe"
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-10-2010, 01:46 PM
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Hoovie Hoovie is offline
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Right. A "creed" or "Article of faith" simply serves to declare what it is we believe. I think it's rather an embarrassment to have tracts serve as a "what we believe"
Many are indeed "lame" as you noted. They make much more sweeping judgement than the AOF.
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005

I am a firm believer in the Old Paths

Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945

"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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