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Old 01-07-2011, 11:19 AM
DAII DAII is offline
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Have we confused tongues/int. with prophecy?

I think the distinctions between Charismatics and Pentecostals ... are interesting when it comes to gifts ...

Some we know have made a distinction between evidentiary tongues and the tongues we find in 1 Cor. 12-14 ... I don't know if the argument is compelling ...

but I personally have some questions as to the purpose of tongues and interpretation and the gift of prophecy in light of what we've been taught ....

I find the beginning verses of 1 Cor. 14 to add to those questions ...

Quote:
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.
My observations:

1. Surely, Paul believes love is the ultimate fruit .... manifestation of the Spirit
but he then say we are earnestly desire the gifts but especially ...

that we may prophesy ... no, not desiring tongues or the other gifts ... but rather prophesy. I do not see this in the OP movement.

I find this to be a direct link and in harmony to Joel's prophecy .... where we find sons, daughters, men, women PROPHESYING as they are overwhelmed by the pouring out of the Spirit.

2. Tongues are unto God ... and clearly says these tongues do not speak unto man. (verse 2) When the Spirit is poured out on Pentecost we find those filled speaking or proclaiming the wonders and signs of God ... or his mighty deeds (Joel 2 and Acts 2)

They remark clearly " ...we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God.”12 And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, “What does this mean?”

This seems to be in line with Paul saying that he who speaks in tongues speaks in mysteries.
In the case of Cornelius and his household .... they speaks in tongues ... BUT LUKE also includes ... and they MAGNIFIED/EXALTED GOD.

Acts 10:42 - For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God.

There seems to be element of praise in this prophetic and spiritual manifestation.

3. Paul speaks that the function of prophesying is to edify the church, exhort and comfort ... a more direct speaking from God towards man ... specifically BELIEVERS or the corporate Body... yet in the OP and Pentecostal paradigm this seems to be the function of tongues and interpretation.

??????
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Last edited by DAII; 01-07-2011 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 01-07-2011, 11:46 AM
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Re: Have we confused tongues/int. with prophecy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAII View Post
I think the distinctions between Charismatics and Pentecostals ... are interesting when it comes to gifts ...

Some we know have made a distinction between evidentiary tongues and the tongues we find in 1 Cor. 12-14 ... I don't know if the argument is compelling ...

but I personally have some questions as to the purpose of tongues and interpretation and the gift of prophecy in light of what we've been taught ....

I find the beginning verses of 1 Cor. 14 to add to those questions ...



My observations:

1. Surely, Paul believes love is the ultimate fruit .... manifestation of the Spirit
but he then say we are earnestly desire the gifts but especially ...

that we may prophesy ... no, not desiring tongues or the other gifts ... but rather prophesy. I do not see this in the OP movement.

I find this to be a direct link and in harmony to Joel's prophecy .... where we find sons, daughters, men, women PROPHESYING as they are overwhelmed by the pouring out of the Spirit.

2. Tongues are unto God ... and clearly says these tongues do not speak unto man. (verse 2) When the Spirit is poured out on Pentecost we find those filled speaking or proclaiming the wonders and signs of God ... or his mighty deeds (Joel 2 and Acts 2)

They remark clearly " ...we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God.”12 And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, “What does this mean?”

This seems to be in line with Paul saying that he who speaks in tongues speaks in mysteries.
In the case of Cornelius and his household .... they speaks in tongues ... BUT LUKE also includes ... and they MAGNIFIED/EXALTED GOD.

Acts 10:42 - For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God.

There seems to be element of praise in this prophetic and spiritual manifestation.

3. Paul speaks that the function of prophesying is to edify the church, exhort and comfort ... a more direct speaking from God towards man ... specifically BELIEVERS or the corporate Body... yet in the OP and Pentecostal paradigm this seems to be the function of tongues and interpretation.

??????


As was shown here earlier, the two are often, if not usually, confused.

From my angle, whether or not they are confused or misused, they are both certainly abused.
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Old 01-07-2011, 12:01 PM
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Re: Have we confused tongues/int. with prophecy?

Is tongues and interpretation not prophesying?
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He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV

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Old 01-07-2011, 12:36 PM
DAII DAII is offline
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Re: Have we confused tongues/int. with prophecy?

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Is tongues and interpretation not prophesying?
Exhibit A. I think they are prophetic in nature but Paul talks about a distinction between the gifts of tongues, interpretation and prophecy
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Last edited by DAII; 01-07-2011 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 01-07-2011, 01:10 PM
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Re: Have we confused tongues/int. with prophecy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAII View Post
3. Paul speaks that the function of prophesying is to edify the church, exhort and comfort ... a more direct speaking from God towards man ... specifically BELIEVERS or the corporate Body... yet in the OP and Pentecostal paradigm this seems to be the function of tongues and interpretation.

??????
I think a lot of people misunderstand what prophecy in the New Testament is (not saying you do, just speaking generally). The Greek word propheteuo has the "the primary meaning of telling forth the divine counsels" (Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 2:492-493.) The secondary, less frequent usage is "foretelling the future."

There is no doubt that foretelling the future happened in the New Testament church (see Acts 19:10-14 for just one of many examples), but the meaning in 1 Cor. 14 is speaking words of edification, exhortation, and consolation (1 Cor. 14:3) as inspired by the Holy Spirit.

That's why I think Paul could say that prophecy is to be desired over tongues, because prophecy exhorts the entire church. Tongues, on the other hand, does not edify the church unless there is an interpreter present.

There's definitely a confusion on the roles of prophecy / tongues / interpretation. I think part of the reason is because Western society has become so individualized that we place an inordinate amount of focus on the individual experience, whereas New Testament Christianity was more focused on the edification of the body of believers. I think that very few Western Christians in any denomination walk into church thinking, "How can I use my gifts to edify the body of Christ today?" I know that some do--especially teachers and obviously preachers. But for the most part Christians show up to be edified, not to edify.
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Old 01-07-2011, 01:23 PM
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Re: Have we confused tongues/int. with prophecy?

DAII - Love it. I think you broke the code, as it were.

jmspiers - Outstanding observations.

notofworks - 'abused' is such a nice way of putting it! LOLOL

Thanks kids - we, as individuals, a church, and as a movement, stand in need of a good shaking of our religious traditions and frequently strange interpretation of scripture.
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Old 01-07-2011, 01:27 PM
DAII DAII is offline
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Re: Have we confused tongues/int. with prophecy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmspiers View Post
I think a lot of people misunderstand what prophecy in the New Testament is (not saying you do, just speaking generally). The Greek word propheteuo has the "the primary meaning of telling forth the divine counsels" (Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 2:492-493.) The secondary, less frequent usage is "foretelling the future."

There is no doubt that foretelling the future happened in the New Testament church (see Acts 19:10-14 for just one of many examples), but the meaning in 1 Cor. 14 is speaking words of edification, exhortation, and consolation (1 Cor. 14:3) as inspired by the Holy Spirit.

That's why I think Paul could say that prophecy is to be desired over tongues, because prophecy exhorts the entire church. Tongues, on the other hand, does not edify the church unless there is an interpreter present.

There's definitely a confusion on the roles of prophecy / tongues / interpretation. I think part of the reason is because Western society has become so individualized that we place an inordinate amount of focus on the individual experience, whereas New Testament Christianity was more focused on the edification of the body of believers. I think that very few Western Christians in any denomination walk into church thinking, "How can I use my gifts to edify the body of Christ today?" I know that some do--especially teachers and obviously preachers. But for the most part Christians show up to be edified, not to edify.
JM ... I have discussed the multiple layers of prophecy in the OT context on AFF ... and I agree it is not just "foretelling" or foretelling exclusively ... there are elements of proclamations, exhortation, words of comfort and even praise of the wonders of the Lord.

Joel's prophecy ... spoke of women and men prophesying the wonders and signs of God.

I see this in Acts 2 ... as their xenolalia was intelligible to its listeners, doing just this ... different from what we hear as tongues today.
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Last edited by DAII; 01-07-2011 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 01-07-2011, 01:37 PM
DAII DAII is offline
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Re: Have we confused tongues/int. with prophecy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaShaliach View Post
DAII - Love it. I think you broke the code, as it were.

jmspiers - Outstanding observations.

notofworks - 'abused' is such a nice way of putting it! LOLOL

Thanks kids - we, as individuals, a church, and as a movement, stand in need of a good shaking of our religious traditions and frequently strange interpretation of scripture.
You have quite a bit of knowledge on the Hebraic concept of prophesying, AW. It would be great to hear from you ...

We must also keep in mind that when Paul wrote his letter either in the Kione or Aramaic he chose words that were not his first language in the theological sense ... rather choosing words that best fit ...

so when Paul ... is speaking of prophesying we must keep in mind his context ... as a scholar of the law and his Hebraic schema.

Prophesying would not just mean foretelling to Paul.
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Old 01-07-2011, 01:48 PM
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Re: Have we confused tongues/int. with prophecy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAII View Post
JM ... I have discussed the multiple layers of prophecy in the OT context on AFF ... and I agree it is not just "foretelling" or foretelling exclusively ... there are elements of proclamations, exhortation, and even praise of the wonders of the Lord.

Joel's prophecy ... spoke of women and men prophesying the wonders and signs of God.

I see this in Acts 2 ... as their xenolalia was intelligible to its listeners ... different from what we hear as tongues today.
I agree. I view tongues in the Bible as being xenoglossia.
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Old 01-07-2011, 01:50 PM
DAII DAII is offline
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Re: Have we confused tongues/int. with prophecy?

Spiers aren't you the author over at ExpertoCreed or WhyIleft?
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