Modesty vs Holiness

[Esther]

A friend mentioned something this weekend that I think we can discuss.

Why do we call what is modesty holiness?

Where did this originate?

[NLYP]

It originated by men!
Dress is NOT Holiness......it is a standard of Holiness.
But Modesty and dress and hair and yada yada yada in NOT HOLINESS!!!!

[JTULLOCK]

Originally Posted by Esther

A friend mentioned something this weekend that I think we can discuss.

Why do we call what is modesty holiness?

Where did this originate?

Not sure exactly, but I am sure that it came from the "with out holiness no one shall see God" thing. Since most op's preach that holiness standards are essential to making heaven and "with out holiness no one shall see God"...thus getting the Holiness Standard title. I think it is a weird statement, because there is no real corliation between dress and being Holy by scripture unless you are a UC, OP that see it differently.

If anything dressing "holy" can be more for protecting your holiness life. I think that people have replaced the term modesty with holiness standards...the truth is that we need modesty, but a dress code is not what we need. But I think it is a mixing up of terms.

[Esther]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Not sure exactly, but I am sure that it came from the "with out holiness no one shall see God" thing. Since most op's preach that holiness standards are essential to making heaven and "with out holiness no one shall see God"...thus getting the Holiness Standard title. I think it is a weird statement, because there is no real corliation between dress and being Holy by scripture unless you are a UC, OP that see it differently.

If anything dressing "holy" can be more for protecting your holiness life. I think that people have replaced the term modesty with holiness standards...the truth is that we need modesty, but a dress code is not what we need. But I think it is a mixing up of terms.

This is true without holiness you can not see God. But holy living is more than about appearances.

Some have put all their emphases there and not enough on behavior. JMO

Plus I think if you are holy on the inside it will show on the outside.

[Praxeas]

1. The state or quality of being modest.
2. Reserve or propriety in speech, dress, or behavior.
3. Lack of pretentiousness; simplicity.

2.free from ostentation or showy extravagance: a modest house. 3.having or showing regard for the decencies of behavior, speech, dress, etc.; decent: a modest neckline on a dress.

Holy From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

1Jn 3:3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
1Jn 3:5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Pure hag-nos'
From the same as G40; properly clean, that is, (figuratively) innocent, modest, perfect: - chaste, clean, pure.

Mat 5:48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Perfect
teleios
Thayer Definition:
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature

Mat 23:25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
Mat 23:26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.

Clean
kath-ar-id'-zo
From G2513; to cleanse (literally or figuratively): - (make) clean (-se), purge, purify.

[Esther]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

1. The state or quality of being modest.
2. Reserve or propriety in speech, dress, or behavior.
3. Lack of pretentiousness; simplicity.

2.free from ostentation or showy extravagance: a modest house. 3.having or showing regard for the decencies of behavior, speech, dress, etc.; decent: a modest neckline on a dress.

Holy From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

1Jn 3:3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
1Jn 3:5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Pure hag-nos'
From the same as G40; properly clean, that is, (figuratively) innocent, modest, perfect: - chaste, clean, pure.

Mat 5:48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Perfect
teleios
Thayer Definition:
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature

So what are you trying to say here Prax?

[JTULLOCK]

Originally Posted by Esther

This is true without holiness you can not see God. But holy living is more than about appearances.

Some have put all their emphases there and not enough on behavior. JMO

Plus I think if you are holy on the inside it will show on the outside.

You got it right! Well said. Though the showing on the outside is up to opinion. There are some that would tend agree with UC's some would tend to agree with the Mod/Libs. I think that your holiness reflects on the outside, but not to the traditions of what man have said that it "should be." You will be modest, but you also will not look good on the outside alone. The insides affect the outsides the outsides rarely affect the inward man.

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by Esther

A friend mentioned something this weekend that I think we can discuss.

You might be surprised . . .

Why do we call what is modesty holiness?

I have no idea. Perhaps because we Pentecostals often appear to the rest of the world to dress in a similar fashion to those who attend Wesleyan Holiness churches?

Where did this originate?

I'm interested too.

To me, holiness is purity of heart, a constant attitude of repentance and desire to do God's will and reflect God's love.

To me, modesty is just what Prax has shown us from yonder dictionary. Polite, discreet, genteel conversation. Not flaunting our earthly bodies or earthly wealth, since it all comes from God and He can take it right back again.

[Newman]

Esther- The idea that modesty equals holiness is probably related to the Catholic Church and some of the leaders a few hundred years after Christ who viewed women as temptations of satan; and consequently equated holiness with being covered up. Think of the kind of clothing nuns used to wear.

Some groups even went so far as to equate lack of bathing with holiness (less temptation). Other groups were distraught at the idea that one might wear colored clothing. After all, if God wanted us to have purple robes, he would have made purple sheep.

So modesty equals holiness has been with us a long time and seems to taken foothold about the same time the Catholic Church began keeping Scripture from lay people. Imagine that.

[stmatthew]

Modesty is a result of holiness in ones life.