((((UPC FLASH)))))) Announcing the Next Possible General SUPT. Of the UPC!!!

[Thad]

**** NEWS FLASH ****
Have you heard that Jack Cunningham is being Groomed to be the Next GS of the UPC????????

I wont say who is promoting it but they are in the position to do it !!!

[PastorD]

**** NEWS FLASH ****
Have you heard that Jack Cunningham is being Groomed to be the Next GS of the UPC????????

I wont say who is promoting it but they are in the position to do it !!!



Groomed? I would never put groomed and Jack Cunningham in the same sentence. :jolly

[Thad]

Groomed? I would never put groomed and Jack Cunningham in the same sentence. :jolly


wow that sure was cold D - I'm telling JC you said that :christmasjig

[Jack Shephard]

I like JC I guess. But is he the right person the UPC wants? I think he would do a fine job, but do you think that he could preside over the UPC and make a bigger difference than the previous leaders? I think that JC would do ok, but not sure the consticuency would agree. I would be fine if I am wrong.

[SDG]

Jack's days in the limelight have long passed ... IMO.

He represents, fairly or not, the days of NU's administration .... when high charisma and deficit/wasteful spending were en vogue.

[Thad]

Jack's days in the limelight have long passed ... IMO.

He represents the days of NU's administration .... when high charisma and deficit spending were en vogue.


UH??? Now that was one Nutty post I'll tell ya! :bells

[staysharp]

Jack's days in the limelight have long passed ... IMO.

He represents the days of NU's administration .... when high charisma and deficit/wasteful spending were en vogue.

There's more truth here than most do not realize. Navigators for rentals, 5 star hotels, steaks, crab...there was a particular evangelist that raised money for Home Missions and took a percentage of what he raised.

[Jack Shephard]

There's more truth here than most do not realize. Navigators for rentals, 5 star hotels, steaks, crab...there was a particular evangelist that raised money for Home Missions and took a percentage of what he raised.

Surely you jest!?!?!?:jolly

[staysharp]

Surely you jest!?!?!?:jolly

Nope, first hand knowledge.:gotcha

[Fonix]

Isnt JC some sort of kin to N.A Urshan? I would think JC days are in the early 90's

[pelathais]

There's more truth here than most do not realize. Navigators for rentals, 5 star hotels, steaks, crab...there was a particular evangelist that raised money for Home Missions and took a percentage of what he raised.

Surely you jest!?!?!?:jolly

Nope, first hand knowledge.:gotcha
Surely, you must unmuzzle the ox that grindeth out the corn.

[staysharp]

Isnt JC some sort of kin to N.A Urshan? I would think JC days are in the early 90's

He's passe. He's Billy Cole's nephew.

[staysharp]

Surely, you must unmuzzle the ox that grindeth out the corn.

If the truth were revealed, most pastors would be much more cautious in their giving, or would want to give directly to a specific cause.

[SDG]

Isnt JC some sort of kin to N.A Urshan? I would think JC days are in the early 90's

I know JC is kin of Billy Cole. I don't know if he's related to NU in any way.

[SDG]

If the truth were revealed, most pastors would be much more cautious in their giving, or would want to give directly to a specific cause.

A concern and desire of the UC crowd .... is it not???

[SDG]

IMO, JJ and DKB have the best chance as the next GS ....

JJ is chomping at the bit.

[Fonix]

Thats right..It is BC not N.A

[revrandy]

I'm thinking more along the lines of Jerry Jones....

[Fonix]

I'm thinking more along the lines of Jerry Jones....

My own pastor wanted him last time............

[SoCaliUPC]

I personally do not ever see Jerry Jones as GS.

Neither do I see Jack Cunningham....at least not the next.

[rooted]

There is no way JJ would be the next Sup., he is a great secretary and preacher but not the kind of man to cast vision over an entire movement...on that note JC is a man of high integrity...healthy character...a man of God that is not only capable of casting vision, but one who has and is exercising church growth and revival...just my thoughts...

[Pastor G]

Pastor D, that was funny... I do not see JC being GS at all... I am not sure that anywhere close to a majority want him to represent them to the world..

[RevBuddy]

Go re read Daniel's first post. He's right on!

JC has too much baggage from his GHMD days. KH had to clean all that up...

[ChicagoPastor]

Go re read Daniel's first post. He's right on!

JC has too much baggage from his GHMD days. KH had to clean all that up...

baggage?
NO ONE in the history of the UPC can boast the numbers of people filled with the HG, churches planted, people baptized, crusades, ect like those of the JC administration.

Headquarters misses him. Haney didn't want him to quit.
Home Missions hasn't been the same since he left.

[ChicagoPastor]

Cunningham took over about a 300 member church in Virginia, about 3 years ago. The Church now runs over 700 people. They're in the process of breaking ground on a 2000 plus seat sanctuary. In just the last 6 weeks they have baptized 59 people....and no they're not in any special revival, just regular church.
The man knows how to have revival

[ChicagoPastor]

He has been out of the national spotlight since moving to Virginia but that has been by his own choosing. He was elected the Dist Supt, within a year of moving back to VA. He is very much consumed with the VA. District.

Now, Bro. Haney has made him the Director of "Global Impact" which is the UPCI's new program for revival. Every time you see a picture, it has Haney and Cunningham in it. Through this Global Impact program you will see him start to get a lot of National Attention again.

NO, I'm not some big fan of JC, just stating the facts I know.

[Thad]

He has been out of the national spotlight since moving to Virginia but that has been by his own choosing. He was elected the Dist Supt, within a year of moving back to VA. He is very much consumed with the VA. District.

Now, Bro. Haney has made him the Director of "Global Impact" which is the UPCI's new program for revival. Every time you see a picture, it has Haney and Cunningham in it. Through this Global Impact program you will see him start to get a lot of National Attention again.

NO, I'm not some big fan of JC, just stating the facts I know.


And there ya have it folks! :santathumb

[Thad]

There is no way JJ would be the next Sup., he is a great secretary and preacher but not the kind of man to cast vision over an entire movement...on that note JC is a man of high integrity...healthy character...a man of God that is not only capable of casting vision, but one who has and is exercising church growth and revival...just my thoughts...


how's JJs health?? he came pretty close to death just this past summer didn't he ???

[ChicagoPastor]

JJ would take it if elected. It was no secret that he was NU's choice to be next Supt. ( i think NU's first choice would've been PM but he knew that JJ had a better shot)

NU openly showed his frustration when Jones wasn't elected, it was pretty comical.

[Thad]

JJ would take it if elected. It was no secret that he was NU's choice to be next Supt. ( i think NU's first choice would've been PM but he knew that JJ had a better shot)

NU openly showed his frustration when Jones wasn't elected, it was pretty comical.



and Haney's obvious choice is???? ___________ :bells:bells:bells:christmasjig

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

JJ would take it if elected. It was no secret that he was NU's choice to be next Supt. ( i think NU's first choice would've been PM but he knew that JJ had a better shot)

NU openly showed his frustration when Jones wasn't elected, it was pretty comical.

I told my wife tonight PM may have wanted the top job in Louisville, but I doubt with grandkids he wants it now.

Then again if Thad is right, Oregon is half gone, California fell, Alberta and South Dakota are history as well as Idaho. Not much left for voters after Tulsa. Wonder if JC is going?!?

[Thad]

I told my wife tonight PM may have wanted the top job in Louisville, but I doubt with grandkids he wants it now.

Then again if Thad is right, Oregon is half gone, California fell, Alberta and South Dakota are history as well as Idaho. Not much left for voters after Tulsa. Wonder if JC is going?!?


I didn't post anything about south dakota,Alberta or Idaho.
I did start threads about oregon and North dakota

[ChicagoPastor]

I told my wife tonight PM may have wanted the top job in Louisville, but I doubt with grandkids he wants it now.

Then again if Thad is right, Oregon is half gone, California fell, Alberta and South Dakota are history as well as Idaho. Not much left for voters after Tulsa. Wonder if JC is going?!?

JC is most definatley staying in the UPC.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

JC is most definatley staying in the UPC.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut Is he going?

[nwlife]

I didn't post anything about south dakota,Alberta or Idaho.
I did start threads about oregon and North dakota

after talking with a couple people from there, they didn't want to give any details, but apparently there is a little more to oregon than meets the eye right now. But it was something that was bound to happen regardless of the vote at the UPC gen. confer.

[Thad]

after talking with a couple people from there, they didn't want to give any details, but apparently there is a little more to oregon than meets the eye right now. But it was something that was bound to happen regardless of the vote at the UPC gen. confer.


A litte more than meets the eye meaning????

[PastorD]

baggage?
NO ONE in the history of the UPC can boast the numbers of people filled with the HG, churches planted, people baptized, crusades, ect like those of the JC administration.

Headquarters misses him. Haney didn't want him to quit.
Home Missions hasn't been the same since he left.


Now Carl Rove.....easy on the numbers. :rudolph

[Pastor G]

Now Carl Rove.....easy on the numbers. :rudolph

Pastor D, I heard your good friend GM was politicking for the next GS...

[PastorD]

George?

[Pastor G]

George?

think he will get it? he might get one vote

[SDG]

baggage?
NO ONE in the history of the UPC can boast the numbers of people filled with the HG, churches planted, people baptized, crusades, ect like those of the JC administration.

Headquarters misses him. Haney didn't want him to quit.
Home Missions hasn't been the same since he left.

Hmm.....

[SDG]

Go re read Daniel's first post. He's right on!

JC has too much baggage from his GHMD days. KH had to clean all that up...

baggage?
NO ONE in the history of the UPC can boast the numbers of people filled with the HG, churches planted, people baptized, crusades, ect like those of the JC administration.

Headquarters misses him. Haney didn't want him to quit.
Home Missions hasn't been the same since he left.

No one loves JC more than many of us who have seen his ministry flourish ... and know and appreciate him on a personal level.

His resume speaks for itself and his contributions to the work of God are yet mounting.

I submit that in the world of UPCI politics ... there are realities one must accept when making predictions or supporting a candidacy...

I sat at a table years ago when several men on the "inside" were advocating JC ... and told this "young buck" that Jones would probably win but they were part of a push to back JC.

This inexperienced kid then boldly predicted Kenneth Haney would be the next GS ... they laughed.

----------------------------

CP ... I will remind you that numbers are just that ... numbers.

RevBuddy is no neophyte, either.

[Coonskinner]

What happens in Tulsa will have a direct impact on who the next GS is.

If Tulsa flourishes and draws away a lot of conservative men, JC's chances will increase dramatically, because conservatives will not vote for him.

[SDG]

What happens in Tulsa will have a direct impact on who the next GS is.

If Tulsa flourishes and draws away a lot of conservative men, JC's chances will increase dramatically, because conservatives will not vote for him.

Quotes like these are confusing ... I thought many are staying and still joining the other fellowship????

I would imagine that a man like PM would have a good chance as the next GS if those double dipping mobilize a grassroots movement.

[Coonskinner]

Quotes like these are confusing ... I thought many are staying and still joining the other fellowship????

I would imagine that a man like PM would have a good chance as the next GS if those double dipping mobilize a grassroots movement.

Why would it be confusing?

I think many men will initially stay in the UPC and yet join the Tulsa movement.

Whether they will remain in the UPC if the Tulsa thing does well is another matter.

I am of the opinion that the move out of the UPC will be something many do in increments.

Going to Tulsa is probably the first step on that journey. Some will never go any farther; others will.

If the Tulsa thing goes big, more men will eventually join, leaving a gap in the UPC which will be filled by something.

The fact is that I don't think anybody really knows or can know exactly what is coming out of Tulsa, or where it will be in a couple of years.

But if it is a flourishing, signifigant entity, it will affect the political climate of the UPC in a major way.

So tell me, how is a quote like mine confusing?

I'm not trying to stir a fuss, just curious as to your thinking.

[SDG]

Why would it be confusing?

I think many men will initially stay in the UPC and yet join the Tulsa movement.

Whether they will remain in the UPC if the Tulsa thing does well is another matter.

I am of the opinion that the move out of the UPC will be something many do in increments.

Going to Tulsa is probably the first step on that journey. Some will never go any farther; others will.

If the Tulsa thing goes big, more men will eventually join, leaving a gap in the UPC which will be filled by something.

The fact is that I don't think anybody really knows or can know exactly what is coming out of Tulsa, or where it will be in a couple of years.

But if it is a flourishing, signifigant entity, it will affect the political climate of the UPC in a major way.

So tell me, how is a quote like mine confusing?

I'm not trying to stir a fuss, just curious as to your thinking.

Perhaps because some have said that the way the new fellowship is structured no one will really need to be "drawn" out or really leave ...

If this premise is true that one can be part of both fellowships indefinitely and many cons choose this option ... then it would make sense that the new fellowship would be able to orchestrate a more mobilized and unified conservative agenda even w/ in the UPCI.

The political climate could then be affected by outside forces still influential within.

Does this make sense?

[Coonskinner]

Perhaps because some have said that the way the new fellowship is structured no one will really need to be "drawn" out or really leave ...

If this premise is true that one can be part of both fellowships indefinitely and many cons choose this option ... then it would make sense that the new fellowship would be able to orchestrate a more mobilized and unified conservative agenda even w/ in the UPCI.

The political climate could then be affected by outside forces still influential within.

Does this make sense?

From what I understand, it is the intent of the Tulsa men to allow for two levels of membership in the new fellowship--one being credentialed membership, and the other being more of just a fellowship status, allowing the minister to hold credentials with the UPC still.

However, my opinion is that this kind of set up won't last forever.

Knowing the nature of men and organizations, I think eventually there will be a push to either fish or cut bait. I don't think the either-or option can remain workable forever. But again, that is just my opinion.

Feelings are too strong on both sides of the divide. One or the other is going to move eventually to curtail having your cake and eating it too, I think.

But that's just my predicition, and what do I know?

[rgcraig]

From what I understand, it is the intent of the Tulsa men to allow for two levels of membership in the new fellowship--one being credentialed membership, and the other being more of just a fellowship status, allowing the minister to hold credentials with the UPC still.

However, my opinion is that this kind of set up won't last forever.

Knowing the nature of men and organizations, I think eventually there will be a push to either fish or cut bait. I don't think the either-or option can remain workable forever. But again, that is just my opinion.

Feelings are too strong on both sides of the divide. One or the other is going to move eventually to curtail having your cake and eating it too, I think.

But that's just my predicition, and what do I know?
:santathumb Have to say, I agree with ya here!

[SDG]

From what I understand, it is the intent of the Tulsa men to allow for two levels of membership in the new fellowship--one being credentialed membership, and the other being more of just a fellowship status, allowing the minister to hold credentials with the UPC still.

However, my opinion is that this kind of set up won't last forever.

Knowing the nature of men and organizations, I think eventually there will be a push to either fish or cut bait. I don't think the either-or option can remain workable forever. But again, that is just my opinion.

Feelings are too strong on both sides of the divide. One or the other is going to move eventually to curtail having your cake and eating it too, I think.

But that's just my predicition, and what do I know?

I agree that folks will have to choose one or the other ... however if this option is open even for a short while ... it will be interesting to see how this double-dipping dynamic will work and if it will have effects in elections.

[ChicagoPastor]

In response to BOOM. JC is not leaving the UPC. He is conservative from his up bringing but through the years he has become more of a moderate.
His Church would not be considered con at all. It is what I'd call "normal" UPC but not con or lib.

In reponse to DA: You're right. numbers are numbers....but you know as well as I do that numbers mean A LOT in the UPC.

IF Haney starts promoting JC a lot and people hear that he's taken a church fom 300 too over 700 in less than 3 years....it's going to get people's attention. Especially since the Church doesn't stop growing. JMO

[Coonskinner]

I agree that folks will have to choose one or the other ... however if this option is open even for a short while ... it will be interesting to see how this double-dipping dynamic will work and if it will have effects in elections.

True.

If I could have my way about it, I would like to see the double dipping option, as you call it, remain viable for as long as possible, and the new alliance could be a means of mobilizing voters to attend GC's and make their voices heard.

[SDG]

True.

If I could have my way about it, I would like to see the double dipping option, as you call it, remain viable for as long as possible, and the new alliance could be a means of mobilizing voters to attend GC's and make their voices heard.

This could be nipped ....

If the UPCI chooses to eliminate this option on their end.

Either by placing some of the Tulsa group leadership under question w/ the cooperation of DS's and their boards ....

or

pressuring those w/ dual membership to "make up their" minds through other methods.


Those in leadership may explore these options so they can preserve their livelihoods.

[SDG]

In response to BOOM. JC is not leaving the UPC. He is conservative from his up bringing but through the years he has become more of a moderate.
His Church would not be considered con at all. It is what I'd call "normal" UPC but not con or lib.

In reponse to DA: You're right. numbers are numbers....but you know as well as I do that numbers mean A LOT in the UPC.

IF Haney starts promoting JC a lot and people hear that he's taken a church fom 300 too over 700 in less than 3 years....it's going to get people's attention. Especially since the Church doesn't stop growing. JMO

JC is still in my mind very conservative .... perhaps his view on technology puts him in the center?

JC has always been an expert on church planting ... he was seeing phenomenal growth in VA before his stint in the Vatican.

I don't know if expertise on growing a local church relates to being the next GS.... will this be enough ... especially under the current political climate?.

[ChicagoPastor]

JC is still in my mind very conservative .... perhaps his view on technology puts him in the center?

JC has always been an expert on church planting ... he was seeing phenomenal growth in VA before his stint in the Vatican.

I don't know if expertise on growing a local church relate to being the next GS.... will this be enough ... especially under the current climate?.

He's not 'liberal' minded but he's not anywhere close to be ultra-con.

Not saying his growing a local church will be the premise upon which he is elected however I think it will get people talking...

What will give him a thrust to being a potential candidate is his leadership as the National Leader of Global Impact.

[Coonskinner]

This could be nipped ....

If the UPCI chooses to eliminate this option on their end.

Either by placing some of the Tulsa group leadership under question w/ the cooperation of DS's and their boards ....

or

pressuring those w/ dual membership to "make up their" minds through other methods.


Those in leadership may explore these options so they can preserve their livelihoods.

The absolute worst thing the UPC could do is put the Tulsa men under question.

If they did that, the indignation generated by such an act would send men running toward Tulsa in droves, and I would be leading the charge.

It would be nice, if in the aftermath of such a grievous self-inflicted wound, we could see cool heads prevail on both sides of the divide.

[ChicagoPastor]

He's my opinion on the Global Impact Initiative.
The whole program is about evangelizing, teaching home Bible studies and growing Churches.
WHICH dept. should be in charge of such an initiative? The obvious choice is the Home Mission Department........however it was NOT put under their leadership.
Haney went and brought back "a blast from the past" lol in JC.
Why? I don't think he trusted that the current HM admin could handle the program.

The current HM admin. is said to be against crusades, and are always downplaying numbers....which is the complete opposite of JC's admin. where crusades were the norm.

The only reason there are HG crusades at GC is becuase Bro. Haney wants them, not Coon.

[rooted]

ChicagoPastor...
In addition to JC taking the current church that has grown, in Newport News, VA he took a church with 1 member (an elderly lady) and built the church to well over 300...souls are a part of who he is...in addition, JC is a preachers friend and a mentor to many young ministers...and based upon the numbers that is something that the UPC is lacking

[ChicagoPastor]

The absolute worst thing the UPC could do is put the Tulsa men under question.

If they did that, the indignation generated by such an act would send men running toward Tulsa in droves, and I would be leading the charge.

It would be nice, if in the aftermath of such a grievous self-inflicted wound, we could see cool heads prevail on both sides of the divide.



Coon,
please note: I am not accusing just giving a "what if" scenario

IF the Tulsa men started to make any kind of effort of calling and encouraging men to leave the UPC and join the Tulsa group, I think the UPC would have the right to put the Tulsa movement "under question"

[Coonskinner]

Coon,
please note: I am not accusing just giving a "what if" scenario

IF the Tulsa men started to make any kind of effort of calling and encouraging men to leave the UPC and join the Tulsa group, I think the UPC would have the right to put the Tulsa movement "under question"

On this we disagree.

Should the ALJC declare a UPC pastor out of bounds of fellowship if the pastor encourages an ALJC friend of his to join the UPC?

Organizations are not local churches with unscrupulous pastors trying to proselyte.

That parallel doesn't work.

I think a preacher ought to be free to join whatever organization he wants to join.

Why be so territorial and defensive and vindictive?

[ChicagoPastor]

ChicagoPastor...
In addition to JC taking the current church that has grown, in Newport News, VA he took a church with 1 member (an elderly lady) and built the church to well over 300...souls are a part of who he is...in addition, JC is a preachers friend and a mentor to many young ministers...and based upon the numbers that is something that the UPC is lacking

JC has started a new program called Timothy Group. net (don't know if the website is up yet) It's been in exsistance for two years. Some of you that are associated with him or the old HM admin will remember Barnabas group? It's the same thing, but with a different name and it's more involved.

It is a mentorship program for young ministers and/or aspiring ministers.
Twice a year he meets with these men, doesn't charge them anything, gives them food and lodging.
He and two other friends mentor and teach the young men.

They committ to helping the young men start out in the ministry.

[ChicagoPastor]

On this we disagree.

Should the ALJC declare a UPC pastor out of bounds of fellowship if the pastor encourages an ALJC friend of his to join the UPC?

Organizations are not local churches with unscrupulous pastors trying to proselyte.

That parallel doesn't work.

I think a preacher ought to be free to join whatever organization he wants to join.

Why be so territorial and defensive and vindictive?

Agreed, it's not like a local church, but the UPC has to protect it's best intrest. If there's an outside or inside influence encouraging ministers to leave and join another organization, it'll hurt the UPC financially and number wise.
For that matter they have a right to try to block whoever it is.

[SDG]

The absolute worst thing the UPC could do is put the Tulsa men under question.

If they did that, the indignation generated by such an act would send men running toward Tulsa in droves, and I would be leading the charge.

It would be nice, if in the aftermath of such a grievous self-inflicted wound, we could see cool heads prevail on both sides of the divide.

I don't know if the parallel is adequate but if they do so ... as I view it ...

it could be similar to the decision Union leadership made to secure and not abandon Fort Sumter in South Carolina.

Depending on who you ask you will get different perspectives as to whether the decision to preserve the fort or attack the fort was justified or not.

It sparked the Civil War ... and yet we know it was not the cause.

Some decisions are deemed necessary.

[retsambeW]

On this we disagree.

Should the ALJC declare a UPC pastor out of bounds of fellowship if the pastor encourages an ALJC friend of his to join the UPC?

Organizations are not local churches with unscrupulous pastors trying to proselyte.

That parallel doesn't work.

I think a preacher ought to be free to join whatever organization he wants to join.

Why be so territorial and defensive and vindictive?

Actually, for once, we disagree.

If a UPC pastor encourages a friend from another group to become UPC, he is simply promoting the UPC. If a UPC preacher that is leaving encourages others to leave with him, I call that division. A lot of folks look at it that way.

Of course, as you noted, and on this we do agree, the final choice belongs with the individual, and they have every right to exercise that choice without interference from others.

[ChicagoPastor]

Coon,
I'm not talking so much about one friend encouraging another to join them.
i'm more against a concerted effort to pull people out. Where the plan is to hurt the organization

[philjones]

Actually, for once, we disagree.

If a UPC pastor encourages a friend from another group to become UPC, he is simply promoting the UPC. If a UPC preacher that is leaving encourages others to leave with him, I call that division. A lot of folks look at it that way.

Of course, as you noted, and on this we do agree, the final choice belongs with the individual, and they have every right to exercise that choice without interference from others.

So.... Only the UPC has the right to encourage men to forsake their current environment for one that might better meet their needs and support their views?

Come on Webbie... you are not serious... are you?:D

[Falla39]

Remember Israel. They wanted a (human) king like all the others nations

(peoples). God wanted to be their king, but they would not hear of it. He

gave them the desire of their (hard) hearts but sent leanness to their souls.

Is there a parallel!

Man has a hard time evidently trusting and serving in something they cannot

see with physical eyes.

What if Americans decided we do not need an earthly president with all the

politics, etc. What if they again looked to God. (Looking unto Jesus, The

Author and The Finisher of our faith.

What if God's people once again turned to HIM with ALL of their hearts,

souls, minds and strengths! Where would it start and how would it begin!

O, LORD GOD, Would it be possible that YOU would let (allow,permit) it to

begin in this earthen vessel. If You are the CONTENTS within! If not, why not!

If not me, who.? If not here, where? If not now, when!!!

Blessed are they which have not seen yet have believed.

Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not,
yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory.

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Blessings,

Falla39

[Carpenter]

Actually, for once, we disagree.

If a UPC pastor encourages a friend from another group to become UPC, he is simply promoting the UPC. If a UPC preacher that is leaving encourages others to leave with him, I call that division. A lot of folks look at it that way.

Of course, as you noted, and on this we do agree, the final choice belongs with the individual, and they have every right to exercise that choice without interference from others.

I agree with you that if someone leaves and makes an attempt to have others leave as well, it IS division. It becomes grey when the individual doing the talking criticizes the UPC or criticizes principals, the organization notwithstanding.

I think Tulsa is the one shot that many on the Booker/Morton/Wilson side of things have to actually encourage UPC ministers to re-consider their affilliation. I don't believe there will be another (global) opportunity.

[Carpenter]

Coon,
I'm not talking so much about one friend encouraging another to join them.
i'm more against a concerted effort to pull people out. Where the plan is to hurt the organization

I don't believe the plan is to hurt the organization, the plan is really nothing more than an organized protest to somehow send the UPC monkey mucks a message.

[Coonskinner]

I don't know if the parallel is adequate but if they do so ... as I view it ...

it could be similar to the decision Union leadership made to secure and not abandon Fort Sumter in South Carolina.

Depending on who you ask you will get different perspectives as to whether the decision to preserve the fort or attack the fort was justified or not.

It sparked the Civil War ... and yet we know it was not the cause.

Some decisions are deemed necessary.

What is justifiable in a war is not justifiable between brethren who disagree on some issues.

[SDG]

What is justifiable in a war is not justifiable between brethren who disagree on some issues.

Agreed ... but when trying to preserve one's self, group or belief system .... there can be a domino effect ... for every action there is a reaction.

[Coonskinner]

Agreed ... but when trying to preserve one's self, group or belief system .... there can be a domino effect ... for every action there is a reaction.

That doesn't justify wrongdoing.

It might explain it, but it doesn't justify it.

[SDG]

That doesn't justify wrongdoing.

It might explain it, but it doesn't justify it.

My vantage point is to try explain it ... and to point out how perceptions often lead people to justify their actions ... there's a lot of justifying going around on both sides.

[RevDWW]

I paid for my own hair cut this week and I have shaved a few days as well, I'm grooming myself to be the GS of my household.........:nod:heeheehee:lol:killinme

[Coonskinner]

My vantage point is to explain it ... and to point out how perceptions often lead people to justify their actions ... there's a lot of justifying going around on both sides.

Yep.

[RevDWW]

This could be nipped ....

If the UPCI chooses to eliminate this option on their end.

Either by placing some of the Tulsa group leadership under question w/ the cooperation of DS's and their boards ....

or

pressuring those w/ dual membership to "make up their" minds through other methods.


Those in leadership may explore these options so they can preserve their livelihoods.

The UPCI has a stipulation that a minister can not hold license in organizations other than the UPC. So will the new "fellowship" be in the spirit of this bylaw or just keeping to the letter?

[TRIPLE E]

Jack's days in the limelight have long passed ... IMO.

He represents, fairly or not, the days of NU's administration .... when high charisma and deficit/wasteful spending were en vogue.

Again we agree!:santathumb

[TRIPLE E]

Pastor D, that was funny... I do not see JC being GS at all... I am not sure that anywhere close to a majority want him to represent them to the world..

Again agreed!

[retsambeW]

So.... Only the UPC has the right to encourage men to forsake their current environment for one that might better meet their needs and support their views?

Come on Webbie... you are not serious... are you?:D

Yes, I am indeed. Sustitute any acronym there, and you will have an understanding of my true meaning. Since we are dealing with the UPC, that is why they are included.

My main point is, that the difference between what Coon said and what I am saying is this:

A UPC man promoting the UPC is one thing. A UPC man tearing down his own group is another. I am personally aware of a conversation (I was there) where arm twisting and anti UPC rhetoric was being used to persuade myself and someone else to go to Tulsa and drop. Keep in mind, this was not by a member of the committee, but it is happening. It is unethical the way it was being done. I do not appreciate it in the least. And, it would not matter if you substituted any organization if this was happening to some other group. The principle is the same, regardless.

[philjones]

Yes, I am indeed. Sustitute any acronym there, and you will have an understanding of my true meaning. Since we are dealing with the UPC, that is why they are included.

My main point is, that the difference between what Coon said and what I am saying is this:

A UPC man promoting the UPC is one thing. A UPC man tearing down his own group is another. I am personally aware of a conversation (I was there) where arm twisting and anti UPC rhetoric was being used to persuade myself and someone else to go to Tulsa and drop. Keep in mind, this was not by a member of the committee, but it is happening. It is unethical the way it was being done. I do not appreciate it in the least. And, it would not matter if you substituted any organization if this was happening to some other group. The principle is the same, regardless.

I guess we all have a different perspective on the issue. I don't see your postion but then I am not standing in your shoes.

How are you by the way? I trust all is well. Hug the kids for me and wish them a Merry Christmas for the white headed fat boy!:sad

[RevBuddy]

I thought the subject WAS JC & the GS...

KH will not push JC...believe me...

JC is doing GI because he's the best for it...CC is not...but having said that...

it doesn't a GS make.

[Coonskinner]

The UPCI has a stipulation that a minister can not hold license in organizations other than the UPC. So will the new "fellowship" be in the spirit of this bylaw or just keeping to the letter?


Are we going to discuss the merits of keeping the spirit versus the letter of the law?

That would be a rich discussion if we got the AS thrown in there. :)

[RevDWW]

Are we going to discuss the merits of keeping the spirit versus the letter of the law?

That would be a rich discussion if we got the AS thrown in there. :)

That actually might be a good discussion to have, with or without the AS thrown in. Perhaps a new thread might be in order.........in the spirit with letters of course...;)

[PastorD]

ChicagoPastor...
In addition to JC taking the current church that has grown, in Newport News, VA he took a church with 1 member (an elderly lady) and built the church to well over 300...souls are a part of who he is...in addition, JC is a preachers friend and a mentor to many young ministers...and based upon the numbers that is something that the UPC is lacking



Been there a few times......"well over 300" is a stretch.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

That actually might be a good discussion to have, with or without the AS thrown in. Perhaps a new thread might be in order.........in the spirit with letters of course...;)

The way the AS gets trashed normally by many of the members here, we can see already where that would head.

[ChicagoPastor]

I thought the subject WAS JC & the GS...

KH will not push JC...believe me...

JC is doing GI because he's the best for it...CC is not...but having said that...

it doesn't a GS make.

believe me he will and IS pushing JC.

[ChicagoPastor]

Been there a few times......"well over 300" is a stretch.

I live by there and the church he originally pastored is WELL over 500 right now

The one he pastors now is over 700.

no stretching, just facts.

[commonsense]

If the truth were revealed, most pastors would be much more cautious in their giving, or would want to give directly to a specific cause.

I heard something along this line from a former Foreign Missionary back in 1988, so I am not surprised. I know of a church (in the 70's) that always supported UPC Foreign Missionaries, but sent funds direct, not thru the org.

Does anyone audit WEC?

[Ferd]

Are we going to discuss the merits of keeping the spirit versus the letter of the law?

That would be a rich discussion if we got the AS thrown in there. :)

LOL! cuz in addition to discussing all those signing the letter but not living by it, we could discuss how the letter itself is a violation of the spirit of the merger!


this could lead to all sorts of Forum fun

[Ferd]

I heard something along this line from a former Foreign Missionary back in 1988, so I am not surprised. I know of a church (in the 70's) that always supported UPC Foreign Missionaries, but sent funds direct, not thru the org.

Does anyone audit WEC?

I dont know the name of the firm, but the answer is yes. WEC is audited on a regular basis by an outside auditing firm. One of the big 5 i think....(Is it the big 5 or big4?)

If memory serves, it was stated at GC this year that WECs adminstrative expendatures were lower than the average denomination.

[Neck]

**** NEWS FLASH ****
Have you heard that Jack Cunningham is being Groomed to be the Next GS of the UPC????????

I wont say who is promoting it but they are in the position to do it !!!

Retread

[PreacherV]

Agreed, it's not like a local church, but the UPC has to protect it's best intrest. If there's an outside or inside influence encouraging ministers to leave and join another organization, it'll hurt the UPC financially and number wise. For that matter they have a right to try to block whoever it is.


Yer not about right, you ARE right! For this very reason, I don't think the double-dippers will be tolerated for long. Every pastor knows that when a saint (or should I say attendee) becomes disgruntled/apathetic/rebellious, etc., the first place you will usually notice a change is in their giving.

On an organizational level, I gather that many cons are questioning how monies are being allocated by FMD and I assume other departments. I have recently received letters promoting an alternative method of giving to missionaries. The idea is to send your money to this independent distributor who will then send 100% of your offerings to the missionary of your choosing-- whether they be UPC, ALJC, or some other OP group--thus ensuring that the missionary is really getting the money. This is a blatant end run around the org's bureacracy, and of course I received this letter soon after GC.

The first thing the Tulsa group will do (if they indeed try to stay in the org and become some sort of lobbying group to turn the org back in their direction) is try to starve the UPC of cash.

I say if you want out, just get out, because the effect this tactic will have is the UPC will then cut off the detracting group and swing even further to the left. The U-cons place in the org will then be quickly filled by U-libs, which I don't think is necessarily a good thing, but it's probably no worse than the other. I'm just not a big fan of extremism on either end. Anyways, in my evermore increasingly humble opinion (haha), the Tulsa group needs to generate a huge, diehard following quickly or they will be nothing more than a
self-marginalized splinter group that the average Apostolic will never know existed 5 years from now.

[stmatthew]

Yer not about right, you ARE right! For this very reason, I don't think the double-dippers will be tolerated for long. Every pastor knows that when a saint (or should I say attendee) becomes disgruntled/apathetic/rebellious, etc., the first place you will usually notice a change is in their giving.

On an organizational level, I gather that many cons are questioning how monies are being allocated by FMD and I assume other departments. I have recently received letters promoting an alternative method of giving to missionaries. The idea is to send your money to this independent distributor who will then send 100% of your offerings to the missionary of your choosing-- whether they be UPC, ALJC, or some other OP group--thus ensuring that the missionary is really getting the money. This is a blatant end run around the org's bureacracy, and of course I received this letter soon after GC.

The first thing the Tulsa group will do (if they indeed try to stay in the org and become some sort of lobbying group to turn the org back in their direction) is try to starve the UPC of cash.

I say if you want out, just get out, because the effect this tactic will have is the UPC will then cut off the detracting group and swing even further to the left. The U-cons place in the org will then be quickly filled by U-libs, which I don't think is necessarily a good thing, but it's probably no worse than the other. I'm just not a big fan of extremism on either end. Anyways, in my evermore increasingly humble opinion (haha), the Tulsa group needs to generate a huge, diehard following quickly or they will be nothing more than a
self-marginalized splinter group that the average Apostolic will never know existed 5 years from now.

Could it be the IAM foundation that you are talking about. This particular effort was started by Jonathan Alvear, and has been around for quite a while. It has nothing to do with the UPC or Tulsa. He is AMF. But I do know that a lot of UPCI ministers are tired of the beurocracy and deceit of the FMD, and have rerouted their funds to the missionaries through IAM.

I think that IF the main goal is that the missionary gets the funds he needs to fulfill his calling, then the goal is reached no matter where it comes from. I personally will send nothing through the FMD.

[Carpenter]

JC is doing GI because he's the best for it...CC is not...but having said that...

Is JC having his stomach stapled? Liposuction? WhAT?!!

I assume the "doing GI" above stands for doing Gastro-intestinal (procedure)?

:D


(intended)

[PreacherV]

Could it be the IAM foundation that you are talking about. This particular effort was started by Jonathan Alvear, and has been around for quite a while. It has nothing to do with the UPC or Tulsa. He is AMF. But I do know that a lot of UPCI ministers are tired of the beurocracy and deceit of the FMD, and have rerouted their funds to the missionaries through IAM.

I think that IF the main goal is that the missionary gets the funds he needs to fulfill his calling, then the goal is reached no matter where it comes from. I personally will send nothing through the FMD.

St. Matthew, could you elaborate on the bolded portion? Perhaps give me an example?

I can't remember the group that sent me that info, although that name sounds familiar for some reason. I could have just saw it in the bible,though. I just know I had never received anything from them before and then suddenly, after GC, it appeared in my mailbox.

I agree that so long as the missionary gets the money, the source doesn't matter. But IMO the org will not sit idly by if huge amounts of finance are being siphoned off. They will figure out a way to regenerate their funds.....Just hoping they don't see raising our dues as the best short-term solution.

[Ferd]

St. Matthew, could you elaborate on the bolded portion? Perhaps give me an example?

I can't remember the group that sent me that info, although that name sounds familiar for some reason. I could have just saw it in the bible,though. I just know I had never received anything from them before and then suddenly, after GC, it appeared in my mailbox.

I agree that so long as the missionary gets the money, the source doesn't matter. But IMO the org will not sit idly by if huge amounts of finance are being siphoned off. They will figure out a way to regenerate their funds.....Just hoping they don't see raising our dues as the best short-term solution.

I do know that FMD does take some % for administrative use. it exceeds 10% but is not 20%. if you send any missionary any money via FMD, they will take that %.

as to the hypocracy issue, there have been many charges thru the years. there are ongoing issues even now. As to their validity, it seems to me, that depends on which side of the debate you are on.

[Nahum]

I will admit I haven't gone through this entire thread, but I can tell you that JC will never be GS of the UPC.


JC wants it, but he couldn't control departmental spending when he was at HQ. Why elect another guy who will just ask for more money to be thrown away on $7K desks as well as over $200k for the renovation of a delapidated historical building (Whiteway) in downtown St. Louis that has never been used?

JJ wants it, and truth be told runs it now. But the Oracle installation at WEC was his idea and has almost sunk a few departments. That system has costed us dearly (to the tune of millions) and is still not even fully functional.

I would like to know why members of the General Board never reigned in either man.

David Bernard is the best choice for the job.

Period.

[Nahum]

I do know that FMD does take some % for administrative use. it exceeds 10% but is not 20%. if you send any missionary any money via FMD, they will take that %.

as to the hypocracy issue, there have been many charges thru the years. there are ongoing issues even now. As to their validity, it seems to me, that depends on which side of the debate you are on.

No, but FMD is covering other depts. debt with money donated specifically to missionaries.

[SDG]

I will admit I haven't gone through this entire thread, but I can tell you that JC will never be GS of the UPC.


JC wants it, but he couldn't control departmental spending when he was at HQ. Why elect another guy who will just ask for more money to be thrown away on $7K desks as well as over $200k for the renovation of a delapidated histrorical building (Whiteway) in downtown St. Louis that has never been used?

JJ wants it, and truth be told runs it now. But the Oracle installation at WEC was his idea and has almost sunk a few departments. That system has costed us dearly (to the tune of millions) and is still not even fully functional.

I would like to know why members of the General Board never reigned in either man. David Bernard is the best choice for the job.

Period.

Now dat dere is a moutful.

[Nahum]

I will admit I haven't gone through this entire thread, but I can tell you that JC will never be GS of the UPC.


JC wants it, but he couldn't control departmental spending when he was at HQ. Why elect another guy who will just ask for more money to be thrown away on $7K desks as well as over $200k for the renovation of a delapidated historical building (Whiteway) in downtown St. Louis that has never been used?

JJ wants it, and truth be told runs it now. But the Oracle installation at WEC was his idea and has almost sunk a few departments. That system has costed us dearly (to the tune of millions) and is still not even fully functional.

I would like to know why members of the General Board never reigned in either man.

David Bernard is the best choice for the job.

Period.

Too bad there isn't anyone with General Board connections on AFF.

I would like to have an answer as to why this type of spending was allowed.

Especially the Whiteway Tabernacle building fiasco.

The building is not in use because thieves (in the worst part of St. Louis) continue to pillage it. Yet, over $200K was spent to renovate it.

I wonder how many church plants that could have helped?

[SDG]

Too bad there isn't anyone with General Board connections on AFF.

I would like to have an answer as to why this type of spending was allowed.

Especially the Whiteway Tabernacle building fiasco.

The building is not in use because thieves (in the worst part of St. Louis) continue to pillage it. Yet, over $200K was spent to renovate it.

I wonder how many church plants that could have helped?

Well ... er ... uh .... um.

Where is that whistling smiley??? ....

[Nahum]

Speaking of mismanagement, I especially loved it when I was a struggling home missionary and found out that, immediately after General Conference, and a record offering, all HM dept. employees were rewarded with an all expenses paid trip to Branson for a "planning session" complete with some very nice gifts.

[HangingOut]

That is totally wrong and designed for wealth.
They should operate within a budget and no more. Under that system, they end up with money they have to figure out how to spend.


I do know that FMD does take some % for administrative use. it exceeds 10% but is not 20%. if you send any missionary any money via FMD, they will take that %.

as to the hypocracy issue, there have been many charges thru the years. there are ongoing issues even now. As to their validity, it seems to me, that depends on which side of the debate you are on.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Could it be the IAM foundation that you are talking about. This particular effort was started by Jonathan Alvear, and has been around for quite a while. It has nothing to do with the UPC or Tulsa. He is AMF. But I do know that a lot of UPCI ministers are tired of the beurocracy and deceit of the FMD, and have rerouted their funds to the missionaries through IAM.

I think that IF the main goal is that the missionary gets the funds he needs to fulfill his calling, then the goal is reached no matter where it comes from. I personally will send nothing through the FMD.

St. Matthew, could you elaborate on the bolded portion? Perhaps give me an example?

I can't remember the group that sent me that info, although that name sounds familiar for some reason. I could have just saw it in the bible,though. I just know I had never received anything from them before and then suddenly, after GC, it appeared in my mailbox.

I agree that so long as the missionary gets the money, the source doesn't matter. But IMO the org will not sit idly by if huge amounts of finance are being siphoned off. They will figure out a way to regenerate their funds.....Just hoping they don't see raising our dues as the best short-term solution.

I do know that FMD does take some % for administrative use. it exceeds 10% but is not 20%. if you send any missionary any money via FMD, they will take that %.

as to the hypocracy issue, there have been many charges thru the years. there are ongoing issues even now. As to their validity, it seems to me, that depends on which side of the debate you are on.

The 10-20% includes Health and Retirement for some and for some missionaries the money exchange rates are hurting them big time. Many feared the Resolution for fear it would cause them to lose funding. Some of the numbers thrown out are not factual given the exchange rates. If you gave $10 in July, that $10 is now $8.50 (or less) in some markets.

No one should completely drop Missionaries and should use IAM as an alternative if they have issues in their mind with FMD.

I don't think the issues of FMD are all about money but that is a closed subject for this board....

[dizzyde]

The 10-20% includes Health and Retirement for some and for some missionaries the money exchange rates are hurting them big time. Many feared the Resolution for fear it would cause them to lose funding. Some of the numbers thrown out are not factual given the exchange rates. If you gave $10 in July, that $10 is now $8.50 (or less) in some markets.

No one should completely drop Missionaries and should use IAM as an alternative if they have issues in their mind with FMD.

I don't think the issues of FMD are all about money but that is a closed subject for this board....

I don't have any "facts" to throw out, other than I do know someone who has had a close relationship with the foreign missions board over the years, and he doesn't have issues with how the money is handled.

Being as how he is the most financially responsible and fiscally prudent man that I know, I trust his opinion.

[mizpeh]

Speaking of mismanagement, I especially loved it when I was a struggling home missionary and found out that, immediately after General Conference, and a record offering, all HM dept. employees were rewarded with an all expenses paid trip to Branson for a "planning session" complete with some very nice gifts.

Interesting. Do you give to home missions?

[staysharp]

I just heard from a very well known long standing member of the upper UPCI and from the same state as JC. He said JC's health is really bad. He takes numerous insulin shots a day and has heart issues. He also recently had a terrible staff infection.

If this is the case, his health would definitely be an issue.

[embonpoint]

I agree with you that if someone leaves and makes an attempt to have others leave as well, it IS division. It becomes grey when the individual doing the talking criticizes the UPC or criticizes principals, the organization notwithstanding.

I think Tulsa is the one shot that many on the Booker/Morton/Wilson side of things have to actually encourage UPC ministers to re-consider their affilliation. I don't believe there will be another (global) opportunity.

Why do you include Bro Morton in this. I have not heard any credible information linking him to the Tulsa initiative. Neither his letter (posted on AFF) nor his address at WCC (I was there and heard it first hand) encouraged anyone to leave the UPC. In fact he stated that it was something that every man would have to decide for himself. Neither one made any reference to the Tulsa meeting in any manner I could see.

Not a big deal just seeking accuracy and don't think it is quite fair to link him at this point particularly in a negative context.

[Bullwinkle]

I had the opportunity to work on a project with JC.
Just some observations.
* When JC was running HMD it was the class of the organization. It was cutting edge for the UPCI. Other divisions were taking their cues from the innovations coming out of HMD.
* JC knows how to raise money and knows how to spend money. Whether this is good or bad depends on your vantage point.
* The man has a heart for revival and growth. His passion for it comes through big time.
After having worked with him for a bit I have nothing negative to say.

[dizzyde]

Why do you include Bro Morton in this. I have not heard any credible information linking him to the Tulsa initiative. Neither his letter (posted on AFF) nor his address at WCC (I was there and heard it first hand) encouraged anyone to leave the UPC. In fact he stated that it was something that every man would have to decide for himself. Neither one made any reference to the Tulsa meeting in any manner I could see.

Not a big deal just seeking accuracy and don't think it is quite fair to link him at this point particularly in a negative context.

I think that this is just an assumption that people make when they hear he is leaving. Most people outside of CA don't understand the dynamics of how the lines are drawn out here.

[ChicagoPastor]

Too bad there isn't anyone with General Board connections on AFF.

I would like to have an answer as to why this type of spending was allowed.

Especially the Whiteway Tabernacle building fiasco.

The building is not in use because thieves (in the worst part of St. Louis) continue to pillage it. Yet, over $200K was spent to renovate it.

I wonder how many church plants that could have helped?

PP bring it up next year at GC. Step to the mic and ask away. I'll back you up, I promise! :santathumb lol (yea right!)

[SDG]

PP bring it up next year at GC. Step to the mic and ask away. I'll back you up, I promise! :santathumb lol (yea right!)

Would back him up if it was asked at a district business meeting?