Disfunctional people and the love of God.

[nahkoe]

Awhile back, my pastor made a comment that I thought about quite a bit and then filed away. I've been thinking about it again lately.

He said that when people come into the church, they do fine for awhile. As long as there are things they need to do, repent, change, etc. They understand that language, they get things being wrong with them. But when the love of God comes into the picture, the pure, amazing, powerful love of God, they back up. Some back right out of the church, some struggle awhile and eventually find their footing. He said the more disfunctional they are before coming into the church, the more difficult this is for them.

Or something like that. lol It's been several months.

Thoughts?

Ways to make it easier to stay on track? heh

[Rhoni]

Awhile back, my pastor made a comment that I thought about quite a bit and then filed away. I've been thinking about it again lately.

He said that when people come into the church, they do fine for awhile. As long as there are things they need to do, repent, change, etc. They understand that language, they get things being wrong with them. But when the love of God comes into the picture, the pure, amazing, powerful love of God, they back up. Some back right out of the church, some struggle awhile and eventually find their footing. He said the more disfunctional they are before coming into the church, the more difficult this is for them.

Or something like that. lol It's been several months.

Thoughts?

Ways to make it easier to stay on track? heh


Actually, I look at this from a different perspective. The more dysfunctional they were; the more they love Jesus, and the better saints they make.

It is people who think they are 'normal' who have a more difficult time changing and adjusting to the life of mercy and grace. They try to 'work' their way into heaven.

The dysfunctional know they can't get to heaven except for the grace of God and they are the easiest to change and adapt to Christian living...it is what they were hoping and praying for:star

Blessings, Rhoni

[SDG]

The more dysfunctional they were; the more they love Jesus, and the better saints they make.

It is people who think they are 'normal' who have a more difficult time changing and adjusting to the life of mercy and grace. They try to 'work' their way into heaven.

The dysfunctional know they can't get to heaven except for the grace of God and they are the easiest to change and adapt to Christian living...it is what they were hoping and praying forAmen, Sister Rhoni .... I would like to add to your thoughts.

I was thinking about this during the week and especially during the last two days.

As a teacher of Special Education ... and well aware that many of us have various needs and disabilities ... I worry that the church is not addressing those needs.

In the classroom, we modify instruction and make accommodations for those w/ physical disabilities, learning disabilities and even emotional disturbance.

In the church ... I see that some have made some strides to address the needs of those w/ physical and maybe even learning disabilities - i.e. sign language, wheel chair ramps, etc.

We even give those w/ learning disabilities a pass when we deal w/ them ... passing off their quirks as "they ain't just all there ... you gotta be patient w/ him/her"

Yet, I am deeply concerned about how we have dealt w/ those w/ emotional disturbance and mental illness. Our theology and practical approach to those w/ these needs is not scriptural, unloving and unhealthy - IMO.

Most in the church utilize the 'TOUGH LOVE' approach ... when dealing w/ the wide realm of confusing issues that are inherent w/ those w/ mental illness and emotional disturbance.

We chalk off their behaviors as ... they're just choosing to live in sin or disobedience. "I'm not going to excuse that sin or behavior because they've been in church long enough" ....

We often give folks time lines to shape up or ship out ... and are willing to even shun the brother or sister if they don't straighten up.

We must first realize that those w/ emotional disturbance/mental illness have a real disability... we may not see it w/ our own physical eyes ... but it's real ...

Whether it be because of a trauma ... or chemical imbalance ... or neurological defect ... it's REAL.

We are patient and loving w/ the person in the wheelchair who may be obstructing our path ... yet when we deal w/ those w/ mental or emotional issues .... we blow up ... and lose it.

I submit that we should not excuse sinful behavior or give a license to sin ... but are not our illnesses a product of sin?

Rhoni, the more dysfunctional they were ... the more love Jesus showed them.

Those who knew better he was hard on ... but those who were in need ... were shown incredible amounts of patience, love and grace.

Some will say "well ... I treat everyone the same" ... "I treat everyone fairly".

Yet, I fear some measure fairness based on the offering equality of results ....

Fairness is meeting everyone's need. Giving them what is necessary and beneficial as to having an equal opportunity to succeed.

Also understanding that they may never attain what others have.

That's where grace comes in ...

Not everything is fixed, peachy and restored when someone prays through at the altar ... we've got a microwave mentality in Pentecost.

Thank God for His Grace ... I need it more than others and some more than me.

[staysharp]

Awhile back, my pastor made a comment that I thought about quite a bit and then filed away. I've been thinking about it again lately.

He said that when people come into the church, they do fine for awhile. As long as there are things they need to do, repent, change, etc. They understand that language, they get things being wrong with them. But when the love of God comes into the picture, the pure, amazing, powerful love of God, they back up. Some back right out of the church, some struggle awhile and eventually find their footing. He said the more disfunctional they are before coming into the church, the more difficult this is for them.

Or something like that. lol It's been several months.

Thoughts?

Ways to make it easier to stay on track? heh

From the viewpoint of a pastor, here are my observations. "Dysfunctional" and "normal" are subjective terms. Most dysfunctional people do not consider themselves to be dysfunctional. Just as most legalist don't consider themselves to be legalists, etc.

Usually, these behaviors were introduced during the formative years and have become "normal" to them. This is all they know as "normal". This is why when you introduce them into grace or unconditional love, they cannot receive it because it is not "normal" to them.

When "normal" behavior growing up was hearing your mom and dad kick, fight, scream, etc. the child will consider that to be "normal" and usually repeat it through adulthood, unless he/she is able to see clearly through it, however I have noticed that even when the child becomes an adult and understands it's wrong behavior, they usually engage in it out of unconscious habit and will deny its existence in their lives.

I have tried a myriad of techniques to help people from classes to counseling, however since they don't think they have a problem, in their eyes they don't need help and will do everything to get out of attending.

Most dysfunctional behavioral issues stem from the child/adult unconsciously trying to fix whatever was wrong growing up. If a man was not validated by his mother, he will enter in and out female relationships always looking for the love he never received from his mother, but to no avail, because unconsciously he's trying to marry his mother, and most normal women do not want to mother their husbands. Occasionally however, he strikes gold and finds a woman who is looking to "fix" her relationship with her father and "WOW" love at first sight.

My point is this; the church can only do so much, at some point the responsibility for Godly living falls on the shoulders of the individual and unless they are willing to take responsibility for their healing, they won't survive except under strict legalism and then of course their not surviving at all.

[Rhoni]

Amen, Sister Rhoni .... I would like to add to your thoughts.

I was thinking about this during the week and especially during the last two days.

As a teacher of Special Education ... and well aware that many of us have various needs and disabilities ... I worry that the church is not addressing those needs.

In the classroom, we modify instruction and make accommodations for those w/ physical disabilities, learning disabilities and even emotional disturbance.

In the church ... I see that some have made some strides to address the needs of those w/ physical and maybe even learning disabilities - i.e. sign language, wheel chair ramps, etc.

We even give those w/ learning disabilities a pass when we deal w/ them ... passing off their quirks as "they ain't just all there ... you gotta be patient w/ him/her"

Yet, I am deeply concerned about how we have dealt w/ those w/ emotional disturbance and mental illness. Our theology and practical approach to those w/ these needs is not scriptural, unloving and unhealthy - IMO.

Most in the church utilize the 'TOUGH LOVE' approach ... when dealing w/ the wide realm of confusing issues that are inherent w/ those w/ mental illness and emotional disturbance.

We chalk off their behaviors as ... they're just choosing to live in sin or disobedience. "I'm not going to excuse that sin or behavior because they've been in church long enough" ....

We often give folks time lines to shape up or ship out ... and are willing to even shun the brother or sister if they don't straighten up.

We must first realize that those w/ emotional disturbance/mental illness have a real disability... we may not see it w/ our own physical eyes ... but it's real ...

Whether it be because of a trauma ... or chemical imbalance ... or neurological defect ... it's REAL.

We are patient and loving w/ the person in the wheelchair who may be obstructing our path ... yet when we deal w/ those w/ mental or emotional issues .... we blow up ... and lose it.

I submit that we should not excuse sinful behavior or give a license to sin ... but are not our illnesses a product of sin?

Rhoni, the more dysfunctional they were ... the more love Jesus showed them.

Those who knew better he was hard on ... but those who were in need ... were shown incredible amounts of patience, love and grace.

Some will say "well ... I treat everyone the same" ... "I treat everyone fairly".

Yet, I fear some measure fairness based on the offering equality of results ....

Fairness is meeting everyone's need. Giving them what is necessary and beneficial as to having an equal opportunity to succeed.

Also understanding that they may never attain what others have.

That's where grace comes in ...

Not everything is fixed, peachy and restored when someone prays through at the altar ... we've got a microwave mentality in Pentecost.

Thank God for His Grace ... I need it more than others and some more than me.


Dan,

This is an awesome post. My mother and I just had lunch and she was reminiscing about he experience when she first came into the Apostolic way. She was known for her "shouting in the spirit".

A critical person asked the Pastor why my mother had to rejoice and 'shout' like that in every service? The wise Pastor said, "You don't know what she has to put up with when she goes home!"

There are many mentally ill people who look for peace in our churches and sometimes we shun them or mark them and never try to meet their needs. This is why it is so important to have a counselor on staff, separate from the Pastor who needs time to minister to other needs, in order to help bring stability to a person's life. This is as much a part of 'discipling' as any thing else.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Carpenter]

I can't imagine someone with a dysfunctional background coming into the church and being scared off by intimacy whether it be spiritual or social. In fact, these are the things that a church thrives on for growth. It is the highly disfuntional who lock into the structured culture because of the lack of structure they had on the outside.

I will also caution a guess that the more dysfunctional people are probably less educated, come from less than stable family relationships, and are on the lower end of the socioeconomic scales.

Unfortunately the love of God comes in second after a person assimilates into the culture, and maybe, just maybe this could be the way it is designed whether the church recognizes or realizes it or not. Why the thrust, NOT to encourage a spiritual personal relationship with the Lord, but instead adherance to those cultural aspects that will "...bring you into a greater and stronger relationship with Jesus."

I am not just talking about the UPC, but you gotta admit you will be hard pressed to find a more rigid social and culturally structured organization.

[Rhoni]

From the viewpoint of a pastor, here are my observations. "Dysfunctional" and "normal" are subjective terms. Most dysfunctional people do not consider themselves to be dysfunctional. Just as most legalist don't consider themselves to be legalists, etc.

This may be true of some but many do admit they have 'issues'.

Usually, these behaviors were introduced during the formative years and have become "normal" to them. This is all they know as "normal". This is why when you introduce them into grace or unconditional love, they cannot receive it because it is not "normal" to them.

I disagree with this. I do not espouse Freud or his psychology and 'normal' is subjective. If you are talking about Biblical family hierarchy and structure...this is a learned behavior from family of origin, but spiritual 'normalcy' is subjective to the 'religious' environment you were raised in. Quite frankly both family and religiosity are traditions of men/groups/church communities. I do agree that many who are 'legalistic' don't think they are, as many self-righteous traditional Christians aren't really Christians at all.

I think we are discussing those with mental illness and handicaps d/t physical or sexual abuse, chemical imbalances which result in psychosis, chronic depression, or manic behaviors. This is different and needs addressed in our churches just like having singles ministries, men's ministries, women's ministries, and children's ministries.

When "normal" behavior growing up was hearing your mom and dad kick, fight, scream, etc. the child will consider that to be "normal" and usually repeat it through adulthood, unless he/she is able to see clearly through it, however I have noticed that even when the child becomes an adult and understands it's wrong behavior, they usually engage in it out of unconscious habit and will deny its existence in their lives.

They can't deny what they experienced. But just like some who are raise din an alcoholic environment who never choose to drink; those who have experienced domestic violence choose not to hit. It is not an unconscious habit but a personal choice to which everyone should be accountable.

I have tried a myriad of techniques to help people from classes to counseling, however since they don't think they have a problem, in their eyes they don't need help and will do everything to get out of attending.

You cannot help people by telling them they 'need' counseling. They have to realize they have a need and you must have the resources available to meet that need. Example: You can have a "Divorce Recovery Class" available but only those who are ready for the change will sign up. The person has to be empowered to make their own decisions and you cannot force the decision upon them. Maybe your tactics have not been right. Just a thought.

Most dysfunctional behavioral issues stem from the child/adult unconsciously trying to fix whatever was wrong growing up. If a man was not validated by his mother, he will enter in and out female relationships always looking for the love he never received from his mother, but to no avail, because unconsciously he's trying to marry his mother, and most normal women do not want to mother their husbands. Occasionally however, he strikes gold and finds a woman who is looking to "fix" her relationship with her father and "WOW" love at first sight.

You have been listening to too much secular psychology.

My point is this; the church can only do so much, at some point the responsibility for Godly living falls on the shoulders of the individual and unless they are willing to take responsibility for their healing, they won't survive except under strict legalism and then of course their not surviving at all.

The church can do much more than it is doing and has done. Don't blame the people for not meeting the needs of your community.

Blessigns, Rhoni

[staysharp]

Dan,

This is an awesome post. My mother and I just had lunch and she was reminiscing about he experience when she first came into the Apostolic way. She was known for her "shouting in the spirit".

A critical person asked the Pastor why my mother had to rejoice and 'shout' like that in every service? The wise Pastor said, "You don't know what she has to put up with when she goes home!"

There are many mentally ill people who look for peace in our churches and sometimes we shun them or mark them and never try to meet their needs. This is why it is so important to have a counselor on staff, separate from the Pastor who needs time to minister to other needs, in order to help bring stability to a person's life. This is as much a part of 'discipling' as any thing else.

Blessings, Rhoni

Rhoni, I agree there needs to be a counselor on staff apart from the pastor. Most pastors think they need to do all the counseling and of course most are unequipped to do so. Having said that, a pastor should not counsel too, and here's why.

When a pastor knows the intimate details of the parishioners lives, the parishioner will eventually distance him/herself from their spiritual leader. The opposite of what should happen.
And if the pastor intervenes or tries to help, they will view it as an intrusion.

Most people are insanely afraid of exposure at any level and as a pastor, I recommend to other pastors to maintain proper boundaries. If you give them advice and something goes wrong, they look for someone to blame and that's usually the one who gave the advice. A counselor apart from the pastor is the only thing that works properly. Then, when spiritual advice is given, it will be from a level of generic guidance and not intrusive. God bless.

[Rhoni]

I can't imagine someone with a dysfunctional background coming into the church and being scared off by intimacy whether it be spiritual or social. In fact, these are the things that a church thrives on for growth. It is the highly disfuntional who lock into the structured culture because of the lack of structure they had on the outside.

I will also caution a guess that the more dysfunctional people are probably less educated, come from less than stable family relationships, and are on the lower end of the socioeconomic scales.

Unfortunately the love of God comes in second after a person assimilates into the culture, and maybe, just maybe this could be the way it is designed whether the church recognizes or realizes it or not. Why the thrust, NOT to encourage a spiritual personal relationship with the Lord, but instead adherance to those cultural aspects that will "...bring you into a greater and stronger relationship with Jesus."

I am not just talking about the UPC, but you gotta admit you will be hard pressed to find a more rigid social and culturally structured organization.

There are some good thought and some misconceptions here:

dysfunction crosses racial, socioeconomic lines, classes, and cultures.
assimilation into a church culture does nto necessarily mean healing has happened.
education, those with more or less, does not determine dysfunctionality! Some of the most 'dysfucntional' people I know are therapists and highly educated people. At least they know it, try to understand it, and try to overcome it.Just some things to think about.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Felicity]

From the viewpoint of a pastor, here are my observations. "Dysfunctional" and "normal" are subjective terms. Most dysfunctional people do not consider themselves to be dysfunctional. Just as most legalist don't consider themselves to be legalists, etc.

Usually, these behaviors were introduced during the formative years and have become "normal" to them. This is all they know as "normal". This is why when you introduce them into grace or unconditional love, they cannot receive it because it is not "normal" to them.

When "normal" behavior growing up was hearing your mom and dad kick, fight, scream, etc. the child will consider that to be "normal" and usually repeat it through adulthood, unless he/she is able to see clearly through it, however I have noticed that even when the child becomes an adult and understands it's wrong behavior, they usually engage in it out of unconscious habit and will deny its existence in their lives.

I have tried a myriad of techniques to help people from classes to counseling, however since they don't think they have a problem, in their eyes they don't need help and will do everything to get out of attending.

Most dysfunctional behavioral issues stem from the child/adult unconsciously trying to fix whatever was wrong growing up. If a man was not validated by his mother, he will enter in and out female relationships always looking for the love he never received from his mother, but to no avail, because unconsciously he's trying to marry his mother, and most normal women do not want to mother their husbands. Occasionally however, he strikes gold and finds a woman who is looking to "fix" her relationship with her father and "WOW" love at first sight.

My point is this; the church can only do so much, at some point the responsibility for Godly living falls on the shoulders of the individual and unless they are willing to take responsibility for their healing, they won't survive except under strict legalism and then of course their not surviving at all.Good post! Great observations!

**thumbsup**


;) :)

[staysharp]

The church can do much more than it is doing and has done. Don't blame the people for not meeting the needs of your community.

Blessigns, Rhoni

No, just 22 years of dealing with people. lol Everybody is broken at some level. I agree with your analysis, and our church does have classes, but getting them to attend, now that's another challenge.

[sherr34]

Rhoni,
I agree. I have Bipolar disorder and if I dont take my medication I get extremely irritable. I went to my husband's Graduation from Dale carnegie the other night and I want to feel good physically while there. But while there I was getting stressed our and irritable. why all because I didnt take my medication. While at the graduation my husband spilled his soda and of course I was getting irritable and then we went to church after that and while there he knocked something of a table while putting on his coat of course I got irritable again. Well I stormed right out of the church.
Well the pastor said I was disrespectful but I didnt have my medication. I have given him brochures on Bipolar and he doesnt understand. I do go to christian counseling so that does help and I even went to see my Pdoc the other day and I dont have to go back for 3 months.
I agree that churches should have counselors on staff that can handle people with conditions like me.

[Rhoni]

Rhoni, I agree there needs to be a counselor on staff apart from the pastor. Most pastors think they need to do all the counseling and of course most are unequipped to do so. Having said that, a pastor should not counsel too, and here's why.

When a pastor knows the intimate details of the parishioners lives, the parishioner will eventually distance him/herself from their spiritual leader. The opposite of what should happen.
And if the pastor intervenes or tries to help, they will view it as an intrusion.

Most people are insanely afraid of exposure at any level and as a pastor, I recommend to other pastors to maintain proper boundaries. If you give them advice and something goes wrong, they look for someone to blame and that's usually the one who gave the advice. A counselor apart from the pastor is the only thing that works properly. Then, when spiritual advice is given, it will be from a level of generic guidance and not intrusive. God bless.


Staysharp,

This is so true. For this very reason Pastors should have a staff counselor. Dual relationships in any leadership positions are very tenuous at best. Even as a counselor; there have been people who I have loved and who have loved me, within the church setting, that have asked for my counsel. When it has been given and I know their secrets...they separate themselves from me thinking that I am thinking something when truly...I love them as much, and sometimes more when I have heard all they have been through and see the healing and restoration in their lives.

Pastor's need to maintain 'boundaries', one of which is not to check to see who is and isn't paying tithes...this as well as knowing other's shortcomings/mistakes/sins can't help but 'bias' opinions, sermons, and ultimately...relationships.

It is kind of like our relationship to Jesus. When we sin...we stop praying because we are condemned and just think Jesus doesn't love us any more because we have been 'bad'. This is a lie from the pit...but sin does separate us from God...because we let it. God has made things so simple that we forget...all we have to do is ask him to forgive us and it is done. He loves us and holds us when we are reaping the consequences of our sins.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Felicity]

What about these women who call their husbands or the significant other in their life ... "Daddy"?!! LOL! :jolly

What I need from the man I married isn't "fathering". And that isn't why I married him either. Hehe. :rudolph

[SDG]

Rhoni,
I agree. I have Bipolar disorder and if I dont take my medication I get extremely irritable. I went to my husband's Graduation from Dale carnegie the other night and I want to feel good physically while there. But while there I was getting stressed our and irritable. why all because I didnt take my medication. While at the graduation my husband spilled his soda and of course I was getting irritable and then we went to church after that and while there he knocked something of a table while putting on his coat of course I got irritable again. Well I stormed right out of the church.
Well the pastor said I was disrespectful but I didnt have my medication. I have given him brochures on Bipolar and he doesnt understand. I do go to christian counseling so that does help and I even went to see my Pdoc the other day and I dont have to go back for 3 months.
I agree that churches should have counselors on staff that can handle people with conditions like me.

Exactly ... there is ignorance in our circles about emotional and mental health realities ....

You are an example of someone aware of their condition ... and have sought to educate others .... and even like this people often don't factor this into the equation in dealing w/ behaviors....

Imagine when both the pastor and the person w/ needs are unaware of the deeper causes.

[Felicity]

No, just 22 years of dealing with people. lol Yep. A Master's degree in life experience and working with and observing people qualifies you for understanding and knowing a lot about dysfunctional people for sure.

Everybody is broken at some level. If for no other reason than that we were all born sinners.

[Rhoni]

Rhoni,
I agree. I have Bipolar disorder and if I dont take my medication I get extremely irritable. I went to my husband's Graduation from Dale carnegie the other night and I want to feel good physically while there. But while there I was getting stressed our and irritable. why all because I didnt take my medication. While at the graduation my husband spilled his soda and of course I was getting irritable and then we went to church after that and while there he knocked something of a table while putting on his coat of course I got irritable again. Well I stormed right out of the church.
Well the pastor said I was disrespectful but I didnt have my medication. I have given him brochures on Bipolar and he doesnt understand. I do go to christian counseling so that does help and I even went to see my Pdoc the other day and I dont have to go back for 3 months.
I agree that churches should have counselors on staff that can handle people with conditions like me.

Sherr,

You and I both know that consistent taking of medications is a must:). The only way I know to help in this area is by speaking publicly in churches. I spoke in several Florida churches about Bipolar and ADHD and the many different treatments, some medications, some diet, and some with natural vitamins and herbs which help with mood stability.

There is also behavioral techniques that can be taught to church staff on how to deal with specific situations and people in the classroom settings...especially those with children with ADHD. Giving them red dye in kool-aid and cookies is not the answer.

Those with Bi-polar or schizophrenia who go into psychosis...one needs to know what is the difference between demon possessiona nd what to do when a person is actively psychotic. Over stimulation with a gang of people storming at you to pray can cause increased agitation and even suicidality.

Sherr, it is courageous of you to expose your condition on a public forum. Please do not take any negative criticism to heart here...people make statements out of their ignorance of the disease.

Blessings, Rhoni

[staysharp]

Staysharp,

This is so true. For this very reason Pastors should have a staff counselor. Dual relationships in any leadership positions are very tenuous at best. Even as a counselor; there have been people who I have loved and who have loved me, within the church setting, that have asked for my counsel. When it has been given and I know their secrets...they separate themselves from me thinking that I am thinking something when truly...I love them as much, and sometimes more when I have heard all they have been through and see the healing and restoration in their lives.

Pastor's need to maintain 'boundaries', one of which is not to check to see who is and isn't paying tithes...this as well as knowing other's shortcomings/mistakes/sins can't help but 'bias' opinions, sermons, and ultimately...relationships.

It is kind of like our relationship to Jesus. When we sin...we stop praying because we are condemned and just think Jesus doesn't love us any more because we have been 'bad'. This is a lie from the pit...but sin does separate us from God...because we let it. God has made things so simple that we forget...all we have to do is ask him to forgive us and it is done. He loves us and holds us when we are reaping the consequences of our sins.

Blessings, Rhoni

I agree, a condition of the sin nature. I have been criticized for loving unconditionally from the UPC crowd. They view it as "greasy grace" lol. I've come to the conclusion, most involved in what we grew up in do no not understand the love of God because it was not properly modeled before them.

God was always mean and condemning, had so many rules you couldn't remember them all. I've come to the conclusion that's not who God is, neither is that what he represents.

I will say this, I teach a surrendered heart on a regular basis for the ills of the sin nature. I have found that regardless of how dysfunctional a person is...ie homosexuality to drug addiction, a truly surrendered heart can heal with the help of the Holy Spirit. And with grace, time and love, many can come into the fullness of Christ.

[staysharp]

What about these women who call their husbands or the significant other in their life ... "Daddy"?!! LOL! :jolly

What I need from the man I married isn't "fathering". And that isn't why I married him either. Hehe. :rudolph

As in sugar daddy??? Diamonds, pearls, vacations...sounds kinda nice huh!!! lol

[Rhoni]

Yep. A Master's degree in life experience and working with and observing people qualifies you for understanding and knowing a lot about dysfunctional people for sure.

If for no other reason than that we were all born sinners.

Felicity,

Years of ignorance in the area of experience only promotes ignorance. Not everyone learns from experience in the same way.

Remember the definition of 'idiot'...doing the same thing again and again hoping to get a different result.

Jesus stated in his word..."The times of this ignorance God winked at but now commands all men everywhere to repent'. This is talking about many situations...God is not winking at ignorance any more. We live in an information age and any topic you wish to understand and know about...many times all you have to do is ....google!

Blessings, Rhoni

[Felicity]

As in sugar daddy??? Diamonds, pearls, vacations...sounds kinda nice huh!!! lolI get "sugar" from my husband. Not my "daddy".

LOL! :)

[Rhoni]

:starI agree, a condition of the sin nature. I have been criticized for loving unconditionally from the UPC crowd. They view it as "greasy grace" lol. I've come to the conclusion, most involved in what we grew up in do no not understand the love of God because it was not properly modeled before them.

God was always mean and condemning, had so many rules you couldn't remember them all. I've come to the conclusion that's not who God is, neither is that what he represents.

I will say this, I teach a surrendered heart on a regular basis for the ills of the sin nature. I have found that regardless of how dysfunctional a person is...ie homosexuality to drug addiction, a truly surrendered heart can heal with the help of the Holy Spirit. And with grace, time and love, many can come into the fullness of Christ.

:hornI agree:)

[staysharp]

What about these women who call their husbands or the significant other in their life ... "Daddy"?!! LOL! :jolly

What I need from the man I married isn't "fathering". And that isn't why I married him either. Hehe. :rudolph

Everybody knows you married him for his money! ha ha ha :lol:lol

[Carpenter]

There are some good thought and some misconceptions here:

dysfunction crosses racial, socioeconomic lines, classes, and cultures.
assimilation into a church culture does nto necessarily mean healing has happened.
education, those with more or less, does not determine dysfunctionality! Some of the most 'dysfucntional' people I know are therapists and highly educated people. At least they know it, try to understand it, and try to overcome it.Just some things to think about.

Blessings, Rhoni

Well, of course you are correct however I think what you said is an exception instead of the rule save your second point. I think in many cases the church is seen as being on the side of the fence where the grass is greenest, however you cannot outrun your dysfunctionality by virtue of simply running. There IS a healing that needs to take place and yes, the church is a great place to find it.

I have found, at least in the case of most psychiatrists, they become psychiatrists to reconcile their own psychoses...

[staysharp]

Felicity,

Years of ignorance in the area of experience only promotes ignorance. Not everyone learns from experience in the same way.

Remember the definition of 'idiot'...doing the same thing again and again hoping ot get a different result.

Jesus stated in his word..."The times of this ignorance God winked at but now commands all men everywhere to repent'. This is talking about many situations...God is not winking at ignorance any more. We live in an information age and any topic you wish to understand and know about...many times all you have to do is ....google!

Blessings, Rhoni

This only works if you have some level of intelligence...lol

[SDG]

I agree, a condition of the sin nature. I have been criticized for loving unconditionally from the UPC crowd. They view it as "greasy grace" lol. I've come to the conclusion, most involved in what we grew up in do no not understand the love of God because it was not properly modeled before them.

God was always mean and condemning, had so many rules you couldn't remember them all. I've come to the conclusion that's not who God is, neither is that what he represents.

I will say this, I teach a surrendered heart on a regular basis for the ills of the sin nature. I have found that regardless of how dysfunctional a person is...ie homosexuality to drug addiction, a truly surrendered heart can heal with the help of the Holy Spirit. And with grace, time and love, many can come into the fullness of Christ.

Yes, sir. :santathumb This has been the experience of many ... not all ...

[staysharp]

I have found, at least in the case of most psychiatrists, they become psychiatrists to reconcile their own psychoses...

Ouch!!! Watch it...Rhoni is a counselor! lol I'm just wondering how many psychs you know to come to such an astounding conclusion? Is it that you have visited many???lol

[SDG]

There is a paranoia among ministers in regards to psychiatrists, psychologists and/or bible-based counselors ...

at least the latter go in w/ a wealth of knowledge ....

the former don't even go in w/ a bible.

[Rhoni]

Well, of course you are correct however I think what you said is an exception instead of the rule save your second point. I think in many cases the church is seen as being on the side of the fence where the grass is greenest, however you cannot outrun your dysfunctionality by virtue of simply running. There IS a healing that needs to take place and yes, the church is a great place to find it.

I have found, at least in the case of most psychiatrists, they become psychiatrists to reconcile their own psychoses...


Carpenter,

I am sure what you mean is all counselors and mental health professionals study psychology to resolve their own 'issues'.

Psychosis includes:

irrational thought processes
hearing voices [commanding or whispers]
seeing images/ghost that aren't thereSo, in knowing the terms, I think you can't say that Psychiatrists [Doctors who prescribe medications] are psychotic:santathumb

Blessings, Rhoni

[nahkoe]

I can't let this post go..altho I'm not sure I'm going to do a real great job at responding.

I can't imagine someone with a dysfunctional background coming into the church and being scared off by intimacy whether it be spiritual or social.

You can't imagine a person who has been hurt in every important relationship they've ever had struggling with a relationship with God? "The Bride of Christ" very nearly kept me away from God. Add in a few more things and it starts looking like a miracle that I'm where I am....

In fact, these are the things that a church thrives on for growth. It is the highly disfuntional who lock into the structured culture because of the lack of structure they had on the outside.

This is what my pastor was talking about, the people who thrive on the structure but never make it to a relationship.

I will also caution a guess that the more dysfunctional people are probably less educated, come from less than stable family relationships, and are on the lower end of the socioeconomic scales.

Birth and death are universal, so is dysfunction. Even the most functional of people go through times of dysfunction in their lives.

Ok honestly? I really need to reign in my attitude here. Cuz let me tell you I have attitude. I wonder what it would be like to be so naive? [/quote]

Unfortunately the love of God comes in second after a person assimilates into the culture, and maybe, just maybe this could be the way it is designed whether the church recognizes or realizes it or not. Why the thrust, NOT to encourage a spiritual personal relationship with the Lord, but instead adherance to those cultural aspects that will "...bring you into a greater and stronger relationship with Jesus."

Once again, I'm grateful for where God has placed me. The focus is strictly on developing a relationship with God. The love of God comes into play first, the outside extra stuff follows that. This is also the context of the sermon where the original statement was made. That people coming in can handle the rules, and will cling to them, but the rules don't save anyone, they don't heal anyone, they don't set anyone free, only a relationship with Jesus will do those things. And yes, I see what I said in the original post..lol

I am not just talking about the UPC, but you gotta admit you will be hard pressed to find a more rigid social and culturally structured organization.

I'm not UPC and never have been, so your point here is rather lost on me.

[staysharp]

"The Bride of Christ" very nearly kept me away from God. Add in a few more things and it starts looking like a miracle that I'm where I am....

You and 4,564,894,564 other people.

[Rhoni]

There is a paranoia among ministers in regards to psychiatrists and/or bible-based counselors ...

.

This is true.
:bells

[nahkoe]

There are some good thought and some misconceptions here:

dysfunction crosses racial, socioeconomic lines, classes, and cultures.
assimilation into a church culture does nto necessarily mean healing has happened.
education, those with more or less, does not determine dysfunctionality! Some of the most 'dysfucntional' people I know are therapists and highly educated people. At least they know it, try to understand it, and try to overcome it.Just some things to think about.

Blessings, Rhoni


I think quite a few tend to over-educate themselves in an attempt to leave the past behind. The more you know, the less you have to feel? Unfortunately, it doesn't really work that way. I do think plenty find healing along the way though.

As for dysfunction (Oh every time I see that I cringe knowing I misspelled it in my OP) crossing all lines, it just does. No matter how put together you are, no matter how good your life is today, tomorrow could be a completely different story. Don't tell me if your spouse died, or a young child, or who knows what one event could impact you more than any other, don't tell me you wouldn't enter a state of dysfunction. Some events leave scars, some leave open wounds. You can't know before hand how you're going to respond or to what level something will impact you. All you can really do is be grateful for what you have today and pray for the grace you need tomorrow.

[staysharp]

This is true.
:bells

Insecurity...fear the parishioner will like the counselor more than the pastor! And the pastor should have all the answers...he looks weak if he doens't. IGNORAMOUSES

[SDG]

Carpenter,

I am sure what you mean is all counselors and mental health professionals study psychology to resolve their own 'issues'.

Psychosis includes:
irrational thought processes
hearing voices [commanding or whispers]
seeing images/ghost that aren't thereSo, in knowing the terms, I think you can't say that Psychiatrists [Doctors who prescribe medications] are psychotic:santathumb

Blessings, Rhoni

Surely if Carp had a mulligan he would have used the word neurosis in lieu of psychosis ...

and surely everyone knows that psychiatrists enter the field to self-medicate.

[nahkoe]

I will say this, I teach a surrendered heart on a regular basis for the ills of the sin nature. I have found that regardless of how dysfunctional a person is...ie homosexuality to drug addiction, a truly surrendered heart can heal with the help of the Holy Spirit. And with grace, time and love, many can come into the fullness of Christ.

That is just an awesome statement. :santathumb

[staysharp]

I think quite a few tend to over-educate themselves in an attempt to leave the past behind. The more you know, the less you have to feel? Unfortunately, it doesn't really work that way. I do think plenty find healing along the way though.

As for dysfunction (Oh every time I see that I cringe knowing I misspelled it in my OP) crossing all lines, it just does. No matter how put together you are, no matter how good your life is today, tomorrow could be a completely different story. Don't tell me if your spouse died, or a young child, or who knows what one event could impact you more than any other, don't tell me you wouldn't enter a state of dysfunction. Some events leave scars, some leave open wounds. You can't know before hand how you're going to respond or to what level something will impact you. All you can really do is be grateful for what you have today and pray for the grace you need tomorrow.

Well said, that's why we need each other in the body of Christ. Relationships are primary to our survival. (healthy relationships)

[SDG]

Well said, that's why we need each other in the body of Christ. Relationships are primary to our survival. (healthy relationships)

Yes ... yes ... yes.

[Rhoni]

I think quite a few tend to over-educate themselves in an attempt to leave the past behind. The more you know, the less you have to feel? Unfortunately, it doesn't really work that way. I do think plenty find healing along the way though.

.

I don't think you know this for sure. I think one can never get enough education:):starIf it we true about me...I would not feel a thing and thanks to menopause...I am feeling more than I need to.

Blessings, Rhoni:jolly

[staysharp]

I don't think you know this for sure. I think one can never get enough education:):starIf it we true about me...I would not feel a thing and thanks to menopause...I am feeling more than I need to.

Blessings, Rhoni:jolly

What about the adage...much learning hath made thee mad? lol

[nahkoe]

I don't think you know this for sure. I think one can never get enough education:):starIf it we true about me...I would not feel a thing and thanks to menopause...I am feeling more than I need to.

Blessings, Rhoni:jolly

I thought about putting a smiley there..... lol

I don't think there's such a thing as too much education either. I kind of like education (I'd better with a life goal of never leaving the university campus...) :christmasjig

I have seen enough who have tried to fill the empty spaces with education, pursuit of knowledge, income, whatever, to know that it happens. "As soon as I get this BS, MS, PhD, I'll feel better...." but they don't.

Menopause had better keep it's face away for awhile...a good long while....oh please... :begging

[nahkoe]

Ain't that the truth. :star

You and 4,564,894,564 other people.

[nahkoe]

Felicity,

Years of ignorance in the area of experience only promotes ignorance. Not everyone learns from experience in the same way.

Remember the definition of 'idiot'...doing the same thing again and again hoping to get a different result.

Jesus stated in his word..."The times of this ignorance God winked at but now commands all men everywhere to repent'. This is talking about many situations...God is not winking at ignorance any more. We live in an information age and any topic you wish to understand and know about...many times all you have to do is ....google!

Blessings, Rhoni


At least I'm not an idiot! I haven't made the same mistake twice. :jolly

[Felicity]

My husband has no paranoia of counselors or therapists, but as pastor he has qualifications that come from experience, from the Word of God and the wisdom and knowledge that comes alongside as a result of Holy Ghost anointing.

I've seen people who spent many hours in the offices of those who have licenses and degrees who were helped and changed after only a few sessions talking with a good pastor.

I think that good Christian counselors and therapists are an option. And thank God for men and women who care about others to the point where they become educated so they can help hurting and dysfunctional people or those who have been through terrible situations at the hands of others. Some even consider it a call I guess.

I also know that understanding and help can come as a result of spending time with God and allowing His Word and Spirit to minister to them. I think people need to be encouraged to learn to seek God and to learn how to hear from Him. He has all the answers!

[Rhoni]

What about the adage...much learning hath made thee mad? lol
:jollyBelieve me, I can get mad quite often:santathumb

[Rhoni]

My husband has no paranoia of counselors or therapists, but as pastor he has qualifications that come from experience, from the Word of God and the wisdom and knowledge that comes alongside as a result of Holy Ghost anointing.

I've seen people who spent many hours in the offices of those who have licenses and degrees who were helped and changed after only a few sessions talking with a good pastor.

I think that good Christian counselors and therapists are an option. And thank God for men and women who care about others to the point where they become educated so they can help hurting and dysfunctional people or those who have been through terrible situations at the hands of others. Some even consider it a call I guess.

I also know that understanding and help can come as a result of spending time with God and allowing His Word and Spirit to minister to them. I think people need to be encouraged to learn to seek God and to learn how to hear from Him. He has all the answers!

:hornGood post. I agree. Every situation is individual and some people are crippled by mental illness to the point they cannot help themselves. It is always good when God uses those who have given their lives to minister to this special population. There is such a need for it.

Mom and I were talking about this today...one does not have to be a card carrying preacher to 'minister' to folks. Spirit-filled people minister everyday in one way or another. A "calling" is utilizing the gifts God has given one to minister to others at their point of need. This need is different for everyone.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Rhoni]

I thought about putting a smiley there..... lol

I don't think there's such a thing as too much education either. I kind of like education (I'd better with a life goal of never leaving the university campus...) :christmasjig

I have seen enough who have tried to fill the empty spaces with education, pursuit of knowledge, income, whatever, to know that it happens. "As soon as I get this BS, MS, PhD, I'll feel better...." but they don't.

Menopause had better keep it's face away for awhile...a good long while....oh please... :begging

Nahkoe,

People pursue education for different reasons and the reasons change over time.

For myself:
JCM: 1975-1978 was about wanting to minister and prepare for ministry.
BSU: 1992-1996 was about supporting my children post-divorce.
IWU: 1999-2002 was about me...all about me.:star

Blessings,Rhoni

[nahkoe]

Nahkoe,

People pursue education for different reasons and the reasons change over time.

For myself:
JCM: 1975-1978 was about wanting to minister and prepare for ministry.
BSU: 1992-1996 was about supporting my children post-divorce.
IWU: 1999-2002 was about me...all about me.:star

Blessings,Rhoni

:santathumb

I started school in order to support my children post divorce. I've found my reasons changing, not that supporting my children isn't still a big reason for going.

(BSU??)

[Rhoni]

:santathumb

I started school in order to support my children post divorce. I've found my reasons changing, not that supporting my children isn't still a big reason for going.

(BSU??)

Ball State University: Bachelor of Social Work
Indiana Wesleyan University: Master of Arts [Marriage & Family Therapy]

In the last couple of years I had to make my life about me. Children grow up and start their own families and then you have to live with yourself.

My goals at this time of my life are to cement my retirement income, and purchase affordable housing. I have a home in mind and I think it will take me two years to get it...but that is my priority right now.

Blessings, Rhoni

[nahkoe]

Ball State University: Bachelor of Social Work
Indiana Wesleyan University: Master of Arts [Marriage & Family Therapy]

In the last couple of years I had to make my life about me. Children grow up and start their own families and then you have to live with yourself.

My goals at this time of my life are to cement my retirement income, and purchase affordable housing. I have a home in mind and I think it will take me two years to get it...but that is my priority right now.

Blessings, Rhoni

I'm seeing that future, where the kids grow up. I know it'll come too soon, but it still seems a long ways off some days. (They're 9, 8, 6, 3) I've started changing my goals based on what *I* want to do. I have a pretty extensive set of goals that include getting a degree that I can get a decent job with (BS in Material Science Engineering, minor in Biomedical Engineering) and also turn into what I really want to do later on (teach at a college level, heavy research involvement in biomed engineering).

My original declared major was finance. Good job, not really something I want to do with my life. I do enough of that just to get through each month, I really don't need to get paid to do it. lol

I think it's interesting how things have changed since I started school. I'm finishing my first year (I did go over the summer so it's kind of like 3 semesters) and I'm definitely not the same person I was when I started.

Oh, my biggest goal right now is to have my BS and have it paid off, AND have a job that can pay for my kids' college educations before they're college aged. Right now, that's actually looking possible.

[SDG]

Ball State University: Bachelor of Social Work
Indiana Wesleyan University: Master of Arts [Marriage & Family Therapy]

In the last couple of years I had to make my life about me. Children grow up and start their own families and then you have to live with yourself.

My goals at this time of my life are to cement my retirement income, and purchase affordable housing. I have a home in mind and I think it will take me two years to get it...but that is my priority right now.

Blessings, Rhoni

I think it's awesome that you've taken the bull by the horns ... Rhoni. You are an example to all women.

I pray that God give you the desires of your heart.

[SDG]

I'm seeing that future, where the kids grow up. I know it'll come too soon, but it still seems a long ways off some days. (They're 9, 8, 6, 3) I've started changing my goals based on what *I* want to do. I have a pretty extensive set of goals that include getting a degree that I can get a decent job with (BS in Material Science Engineering, minor in Biomedical Engineering) and also turn into what I really want to do later on (teach at a college level, heavy research involvement in biomed engineering).

My original declared major was finance. Good job, not really something I want to do with my life. I do enough of that just to get through each month, I really don't need to get paid to do it. lol

I think it's interesting how things have changed since I started school. I'm finishing my first year (I did go over the summer so it's kind of like 3 semesters) and I'm definitely not the same person I was when I started.

Oh, my biggest goal right now is to have my BS and have it paid off, AND have a job that can pay for my kids' college educations before they're college aged. Right now, that's actually looking possible.

Wow!!! 4 kids and going to school ... Nahkoe, that is to be admired. I pray God give you the desires of your heart also.

[Rhoni]

I'm seeing that future, where the kids grow up. I know it'll come too soon, but it still seems a long ways off some days. (They're 9, 8, 6, 3) I've started changing my goals based on what *I* want to do. I have a pretty extensive set of goals that include getting a degree that I can get a decent job with (BS in Material Science Engineering, minor in Biomedical Engineering) and also turn into what I really want to do later on (teach at a college level, heavy research involvement in biomed engineering).

My original declared major was finance. Good job, not really something I want to do with my life. I do enough of that just to get through each month, I really don't need to get paid to do it. lol

I think it's interesting how things have changed since I started school. I'm finishing my first year (I did go over the summer so it's kind of like 3 semesters) and I'm definitely not the same person I was when I started.

Oh, my biggest goal right now is to have my BS and have it paid off, AND have a job that can pay for my kids' college educations before they're college aged. Right now, that's actually looking possible.


Nahkoe,

You will accomplish all you set out to do. I admire your ability to work with numbers. I do not even know that side of my brain! LOL.

I pray God's blessings on you and your children,
Rhoni

[Rhoni]

I think it's awesome that you've taken the bull by the horns ... Rhoni. You are an example to all women.

I pray that God give you the desires of your heart.

Bro. Dan,
That is so kind of you to say but many would differ with you on that. Thank-you for the blessing. I don't even know what the desires of my heart are anymore but when God figures it out...He'll let me know.:santathumb

Blessings, Rhoni

[nahkoe]

Wow!!! 4 kids and going to school ... Nahkoe, that is to be admired. I pray God give you the desires of your heart also.

Thank you. :santathumb

Although I'm not really sure if I should be admired, or if you should point at me and laugh. I'll let ya know in 4 or 5 years when I graduate and things slow down enough that I can think again. lol

[nahkoe]

Nahkoe,

You will accomplish all you set out to do. I admire your ability to work with numbers. I do not even know that side of my brain! LOL.

I pray God's blessings on you and your children,
Rhoni


Thanks Rhoni. :christmoose

[staysharp]

Thank you. :santathumb

Although I'm not really sure if I should be admired, or if you should point at me and laugh. I'll let ya know in 4 or 5 years when I graduate and things slow down enough that I can think again. lol

Keep going my sister graduated with 5 kids running around the house. She would study with em yelling, screaming, but it was worth it, she is now 50, her husband was taken with cancer and her children are grown, but she is able to take care of herself. Kudos to you!

[SDG]

Thank you. :santathumb

Although I'm not really sure if I should be admired, or if you should point at me and laugh. I'll let ya know in 4 or 5 years when I graduate and things slow down enough that I can think again. lol

Just persist.

I am now considering getting a doctorate or a second master's.

The idea of getting a second master's is becoming more and more appealing because the state of Texas is willing to pay for a lot of it.

It would probably be in Curriculum and Instruction ... or Educational Administration ....

I will be attending a seminar this week to learn more about this master's offering. They are offering the option to studying online, too.

My goal is to have it done by the time I'm 40.

[nahkoe]

Keep going my sister graduated with 5 kids running around the house. She would study with em yelling, screaming, but it was worth it, she is now 50, her husband was taken with cancer and her children are grown, but she is able to take care of herself. Kudos to you!


LOL Yep! I told someone the other day that I'm not sure how I'm going to do on my math final. I don't think I can do math in silence. I usually have my 4 plus a few more running around. And 3 of mine are boys.

Oh and do not ever nominate me for housekeeping awards. Actually, just make sure you give me a week's notice before you visit. Seriously, my pastor and his wife come over every other week for Bible study, and that's about how often it's clean. At least where the doors don't close...

I keep hoping balancing everything will get easier. It doesn't. I just study lots during session, then clean lots when I'm on break. Oh well.

[nahkoe]

Just persist.

I am now considering getting a doctorate or a second master's.

The idea of getting a second master's is becoming more and more appealing because the state of Texas is willing to pay for a lot of it.

It would probably be in Curriculum and Instruction ... or Educational Administration ....

I will be attending a seminar this week to learn more about this master's offering. They are offering the option to studying online, too.

My goal is to have it done by the time I'm 40.

I've noticed there are a few online master's in education programs here. I like the online option, it's nice and perfectly fits my learning style. Unfortunately, I really have no desire to teach at any level lower than college. I just really don't think I could handle teaching someone who doesn't want to be there w/o having the option of pointing at the door. lol I do respect those who can teach at the lower grade levels. I've been tutoring this semester and enjoy it so much! Although I've found that if I get paired with a student who's less than motivated, I get a little cranky about my wasted time. heh

[SDG]

I've noticed there are a few online master's in education programs here. I like the online option, it's nice and perfectly fits my learning style. Unfortunately, I really have no desire to teach at any level lower than college. I just really don't think I could handle teaching someone who doesn't want to be there w/o having the option of pointing at the door. lol I do respect those who can teach at the lower grade levels. I've been tutoring this semester and enjoy it so much! Although I've found that if I get paired with a student who's less than motivated, I get a little cranky about my wasted time. heh

I like the classroom but it may be time to get out ...

These to master's options will afford me the opportunity to.

What school are you enrolled in? PM if you don't want to disclose on public forum?

[sherr34]

Bump

[Rhoni]

Thank you for bringing this thread back to the forfront. In the past few years I have found that some Pastors are onboard and see the need for a counseling ministry while others cannot trust or turn loose of the control they have over the saints of the church and their lives.

Confidentiality and Ethics are the cornerstone to good counseling. People need a safe place to lay out their thoughts, and even their family dysfunctions on the table, without them being used against them or thrown up in their face when things come up in church.

It is difficult to understand and allow counseling ministry when one is unaware of mental illness, cause and effects, and the liability of having one on staff. Ignorance creates more fear than necessary.

Licensed professionals have to have their own malpractice insurance. Professional counselors refrain from giving advice but help the client to explore their own values and strengths to find the answer for themselves.

Sometimes people just need a safe place to speak their own thoughts so they can see them from alternative perspectives. If a person does not understand mental illness and is afraid of the signs and symptoms of it; they cannot but make the client uncomfortable and even afraid to open up to them.

What Pastor's don't realize:
1. The counselor cannot give out confidential information on a client just because the Pastor feels he has a right to know about the saints he Pastors.
2. There has to be a release of information signed and dated by the client to allow anyone access to the content of the sessions.
3. The counselor has a duty to report any child abuse, or intent to harm self, or others.
4. Counselors are there to help the minister not to take his/her place.

Mental illness is a reality and if you want to meet the needs of your congregation then there are things you must know, or have someone on staff who knows.

Just some thoughts on this matter.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Rhoni]

*bump*

[nahkoe]

Interesting timing for *me* for this thread to show up again.

8 months after posting this, 14 months after walking into a church after a whole lot of years out, and I think I may have finally laid to rest my reason for posting this in the first place. Interesting timing.