View Full Version : OK, One more time...at which "step" is one rapture ready?
ManOfWord
12-11-2007, 11:02 AM
Might as beat this horse into a pulp.....
Given all the current discussions lately regarding "steppers", at what point do you think a person is rapture ready?
1. At genuine repentance, giving oneself completely to the Lord and all that means.
2. After water baptism (you know how we do it)
3. After speaking in tongues @ the reception of the Holy Spirit baptism.
4. None of these matter unless they have the oneness revelation and they take place in a oneness church.
5. After speaking in tongues, but not yet water baptized.
I know this is over simplified due to the numerous variations of each of these three "steps" but to cover all the bases would take far too many options and make it even more confusing than it already is.....to some. :D
Apparently, I can't edit the poll to add #5 - maybe someone can do that for me (hint, hint)
mizpeh
12-11-2007, 11:07 AM
You forgot:
5) At faith
6) Upon fullfillment of 1, 2, and 3
7) Upon fullfillment of 1, 2, and 3 and walking by faith (You could have obeyed 1, 2, 3 then went shipwreck concerning faith)
Dedicated Mind
12-11-2007, 11:13 AM
Rom 8:11 is clear,
"But IF the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dweleth in you."
Holy Ghost baptism is the step and can be step 2 or 3, making room for lots of charismatics.
John Atkinson
12-11-2007, 11:18 AM
0.5 = Believe the Gospel
1+2+3 = Respond to and obey the gospel
5 = Continue in the Gospel
0.5 through 3 is the on-ramp that puts us on the highway of holiness
mizpeh's #5 is what keeps us walking on the highway until we reach our exit. Being "Saved" also involves enduring to the end. Staying on the highway until we hit our exit.
Without #5 we can't do that.
The only way I can say "I am saved" right now is through faith and confidence that he is able to keep that which is placed in his hand.
I won't say that Acts 2:38 "saved" me. But it is the only way to get on the narrow road. I am niether a 1 stepper or a 3 stepper. If all we take is one step we haven't got on the road yet. If all we take is three steps we are on the road and about to get run over.
This is a journey, we have thousands of steps every day day after day until the exit ramp appears...
ManOfWord
12-11-2007, 11:30 AM
But a sincere person wants to truly know, "If I died this moment, based upon my response to God, would I "make it" in the rapture?
I don't want to hear any "hee haw" either along the lines of "Well I'm not God and only the Lord knows."
Those words usually come out of the mouth of a bona fide three stepper who jukes and jives until they've spoken in tongues and then they'll tell you that you're ready....but not until. :D
Dedicated Mind
12-11-2007, 11:37 AM
Only God and those in heaven know. :penguin
Is this a trick question????
staysharp
12-11-2007, 11:43 AM
Might as beat this horse into a pulp.....
Given all the current discussions lately regarding "steppers", at what point do you think a person is rapture ready?
1. At genuine repentance, giving oneself completely to the Lord and all that means.
2. After water baptism (you know how we do it)
3. After speaking in tongues @ the reception of the Holy Spirit baptism.
4. None of these matter unless they have the oneness revelation and they take place in a oneness church.
5. After speaking in tongues, but not yet water baptized.
I know this is over simplified due to the numerous variations of each of these three "steps" but to cover all the bases would take far too many options and make it even more confusing than it already is.....to some. :D
Apparently, I can't edit the poll to add #5 - maybe someone can do that for me (hint, hint)
Rapture? What rapture? That's not in the bible...:santathumb
John Atkinson
12-11-2007, 11:44 AM
But a sincere person wants to truly know, "If I died this moment, based upon my response to God, would I "make it" in the rapture?
Then I would answer that person. "You aren't dying right now, so I would suggest we find some water and get you baptized right and God will give you the Holy Ghost. Because it could happen and we don't know when."
Those women in the parable of the ten virgins sincerely wanted some oil.
John Atkinson
12-11-2007, 11:48 AM
Then I would answer that person. "You aren't dying right now, so I would suggest we find some water and get you baptized right and God will give you the Holy Ghost. Because it could happen and we don't know when."
Those women in the parable of the ten virgins sincerely wanted some oil.
Sorry to quote myself, but on the Holy Ghost bit I think most our churches promote that wrong....the whole spit and slobber in their face whilst giving a concusion and inner ear damage is more hinderence than help. God promised....
sorry, digression.....
RevDWW
12-11-2007, 11:51 AM
Romans 8:9 - 11 (KJV) 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
If you are not possessed of The Spirit, you are not His.
Don't get mad at me, Paul said it.............
OneAccord
12-11-2007, 11:52 AM
Number 1
rgcraig
12-11-2007, 11:53 AM
If you are not possessed of The Spirit, you are not His.
Don't get mad at me, Paul said it.............
There's just that small debate of "when" you are possessed of The Spirit.
Encryptus
12-11-2007, 11:58 AM
There's just that small debate of "when" you are possessed of The Spirit.
I'm shocked at you young lady, attempting logic, nay even common sense, on a thread of this nature!!
:star
staysharp
12-11-2007, 12:00 PM
There's just that small debate of "when" you are possessed of The Spirit.
And of course it would behoove us to ask "what kinda spirit?"
RevDWW
12-11-2007, 12:03 PM
There's just that small debate of "when" you are possessed of The Spirit.
I wonder when Simon the Sorcerer knew the Samaritan folks received the Holy Ghost when the Apostles laid hands on them? Acts 8
How did Peter and his Jewish brethern know that Cornelius and his household received the Holy Ghost? Acts 10 & 11
RevDWW
12-11-2007, 12:06 PM
I'm shocked at you young lady, attempting logic, nay even common sense, on a thread of this nature!!
:star
What logic? :noidea:tease
RevDWW
12-11-2007, 12:08 PM
And of course it would behoove us to ask "what kinda spirit?"
Doesn't the phrase "The Spirit" ring a bell? :doh
MrsMcD
12-11-2007, 12:14 PM
:nothingtoadd
I wonder when Simon the Sorcerer knew the Samaritan folks received the Holy Ghost when the Apostles laid hands on them? Acts 8
How did Peter and his Jewish brethern know that Cornelius and his household received the Holy Ghost? Acts 10 & 11
hmmm...
And all this time I thought tongues was a sign unto the unbeliever ....
Brothers and sisters, do not be children in your thinking. Instead, be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature. 21It is written in the law: "By people with strange tongues and by the lips of strangers I will speak to this people, yet not even in this way will they listen to me," says the Lord. 22 So then, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers (I Corinthians 14:20-22, NET Bible).
I know Pentecost loves to count tongue talkers ... but is this the fruit of a Spirit-filled person???
21 instances of conversions in the book of Acts and only 4 accompanied by tongues ...
RevDWW
12-11-2007, 12:32 PM
hmmm...
And all this time I thought tongues was a sign unto the unbeliever ....
Brothers and sisters, do not be children in your thinking. Instead, be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature. 21It is written in the law: "By people with strange tongues and by the lips of strangers I will speak to this people, yet not even in this way will they listen to me," says the Lord. 22 So then, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers (I Corinthians 14:20-22, NET Bible).
I know Pentecost loves to count tongue talkers ... but is this the fruit of a Spirit-filled person???
21 instances of conversions in the book of Acts and only 4 accompanied by tongues ...
Because tongues was not mentioned does that mean it did not happen?
How many instances of conversions took place with & without water baptism?
Because tongues was not mentioned does that mean it did not happen?
How many instances of conversions took place with & without water baptism?
Nor does it mean that it did ... Dan. Your dillema is making "tongues or hell" a salvific doctrine.
Genuine conversions result in baptisms ... always. Yet your dilemma is supporting that a properly administered baptism causes salvation.
Encryptus
12-11-2007, 12:47 PM
Nor does it mean that it did ... Dan. Your dillema is making "tongues or hell" a salvific doctrine.
Genuine conversions result in baptisms ... always. Yet your dilemma is supporting that a properly administered baptism causes salvation.
Hate to butt in but you should have also highlighted the word "PROPERLY".
Cause if it done ain't right yalls jes back down to two steppin.
staysharp
12-11-2007, 01:09 PM
Hate to butt in but you should have also highlighted the word "PROPERLY".
Cause if it done ain't right yalls jes back down to two steppin.
One step, two step, three steps, sounds like I'm watching "Dancing with the stars".
ManOfWord
12-11-2007, 02:19 PM
Then I would answer that person. "You aren't dying right now, so I would suggest we find some water and get you baptized right and God will give you the Holy Ghost. Because it could happen and we don't know when."
Those women in the parable of the ten virgins sincerely wanted some oil.
Ok, let's take a step further then, say the person IS on their death bed and has lived the worst life you could almost imagine...guilt and conviction grip them, God is certainly dealing with their heart, they can't be baptized due to medical situations...the person TRULY repents with all of their heart and asks God to forgive them...they wipe the tears from their eyes and ask the question. You're not answering as God, you're answering as a man of God who has lead them to the throne do grace...
This is not necessarily to you, JA, but just to take it a little further for all to read.
I don't know how I got dragged into this AGAIN....I promised myself that I would only post a LITTLE bit when Renda asked me.....:D
Revelationist
12-11-2007, 05:04 PM
Since the word Rapture means, "over filled with joy", it would have to be after receiving the Holy Ghost. I felt better after repentance and being baptized, but I was Raptured when I got the Holy Ghost.
Whole Hearted
12-11-2007, 06:02 PM
After one has repented, be baptised in Jesus name FOR the remissions of sine, received the Holy Ghost, and living a holy and separated life.
RandyWayne
12-11-2007, 06:19 PM
After one has repented, be baptised in Jesus name FOR the remissions of sine, received the Holy Ghost, and living a holy and separated life.
Can't go to heaven with that one-eyed devil in the house eh? LOL
Even if all the other steps are somehow followed A, B, and C on a persons death bed?
philjones
12-11-2007, 06:44 PM
Nor does it mean that it did ... Dan. Your dillema is making "tongues or hell" a salvific doctrine.
Genuine conversions result in baptisms ... always. Yet your dilemma is supporting that a properly administered baptism causes salvation.
Dan,
How do you know the conversion was genuine? How does anyone?
MOW,
How do you measure or determine "genuine" repentance? What quantifies and qualifies one's repentance as 'genuine"? Don't tell me you start fruit inspecting or looking at the works or behaviors or attitudes demonstrated by the repentee. Surely you don't do that?
philjones
12-11-2007, 06:45 PM
One step, two step, three steps, sounds like I'm watching "Dancing with the stars".
The way you and Dan dance on most issues ya'll could probably win the blue ribbon!:shockamoo:shockamoo
Pastor Keith
12-11-2007, 07:22 PM
Might as beat this horse into a pulp.....
Given all the current discussions lately regarding "steppers", at what point do you think a person is rapture ready?
1. At genuine repentance, giving oneself completely to the Lord and all that means.
2. After water baptism (you know how we do it)
3. After speaking in tongues @ the reception of the Holy Spirit baptism.
4. None of these matter unless they have the oneness revelation and they take place in a oneness church.
5. After speaking in tongues, but not yet water baptized.
I know this is over simplified due to the numerous variations of each of these three "steps" but to cover all the bases would take far too many options and make it even more confusing than it already is.....to some. :D
Apparently, I can't edit the poll to add #5 - maybe someone can do that for me (hint, hint)
I think it is clear that the normative way that the New Birth Happens in the NT is Acts 2:38, but it is healthy and biblical to seperate salvation from the New Birth experience.
But before I get accused of heresey, I belive the new birth to a part of salvation but does not encompass all there is to salvation.
So what does this mean, from God's perspective faith saves us, faith keeps us, faith will have saved us.
But from the Human responsibility factor, a believer needs to repent of sins, needs to be baptized and there needs to be regeneration for the sin nature to be conquered or ruled.
I think to that it is clear that it isnt a all of nothing thing, salvation is a process.
staysharp
12-11-2007, 07:27 PM
The way you and Dan dance on most issues ya'll could probably win the blue ribbon!:shockamoo:shockamoo
Thanks for the compliment, I really like your new pic, it's very flattering.
...
Those women in the parable of the ten virgins sincerely wanted some oil.
The 10 women spoken of in Matthew 25:1-13 who "took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom and the bride," were they 10 potential brides for a harem but only five became actual brides, or just how would they fit into the wedding celebration?
...
21 instances of conversions in the book of Acts and only 4 accompanied by tongues ...
only 4 where tongues are mentioned
freeatlast
12-11-2007, 07:58 PM
The 10 women spoken of in Matthew 25:1-13 who "took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom and the bride," were they 10 potential brides for a harem but only five became actual brides, or just how would they fit into the wedding celebration?
WHOA ...the 10 were the attendants to the bride in this parable of a wedding.
They weren't getting hitched, just going to a wedding.
WHOA ...the 10 were the attendants to the bride in this parable of a wedding.
They weren't getting hitched, just going to a wedding.
If they aren't the bride,
why do we use this parable to preach that the oil is necessary to be in the bride?
And who are these folks who are part of the wedding festivities in addition to the bride?
freeatlast
12-11-2007, 08:08 PM
If they aren't the bride,
why do we use this parable to preach that the oil is necessary to be in the bride?
And who are these folks who are part of the wedding festivities in addition to the bride?
It's just the telling of a hebraic wedding to make a point to plan ahead.
The foolish didn't plan ahead and take an extra vessel of oil to keep their lamps lit in the even the bridegroom did'nt show when they expected that he would.
Jack Shephard
12-11-2007, 09:14 PM
Dan,
How do you know the conversion was genuine? How does anyone?
We don't and that is the point. If you were to see a genuine aligator skin brief case that cost $1,000 and that is what you fancy you might find it as a good investment because the case shoud actually cost over 3k. You might wannna take it. But you would never know if it was really genuine. Only the maker knows if it is genuine. We don't.
MOW,
How do you measure or determine "genuine" repentance? What quantifies and qualifies one's repentance as 'genuine"? Don't tell me you start fruit inspecting or looking at the works or behaviors or attitudes demonstrated by the repentee. Surely you don't do that?
First, you do not measure it. We do not judege people by motives, but by their actions, yes? God judges by motives. It is up to God to judge the "quick and the dead." Our job is not to decipher whether one is saved or not. It is our job to lead them to Jesus and He alone does the work. I have a friend that his family owns a fruit store. He said there are people that sell fruit then there are others that sell FRUIT. Only experts knows what real good fruit looks like. IF someone is really change and has made a decision for Christ then the fruit on their tree will change some casual lookers might not notice right out front, but the ones that are in the 'know' will see the change.
It's just the telling of a hebraic wedding to make a point to plan ahead.
The foolish didn't plan ahead and take an extra vessel of oil to keep their lamps lit in the even the bridegroom did'nt show when they expected that he would.
So, they all had oil but some didn't have enough?
Harmony
12-11-2007, 09:28 PM
None of the above.
ManOfWord
12-11-2007, 09:30 PM
Dan,
How do you know the conversion was genuine? How does anyone?
MOW,
How do you measure or determine "genuine" repentance? What quantifies and qualifies one's repentance as 'genuine"? Don't tell me you start fruit inspecting or looking at the works or behaviors or attitudes demonstrated by the repentee. Surely you don't do that?
I know the same way I know a "genuine" anything. Sure I could be wrong but I believe I know the fate of anyone who has genuinely given themselves to the Lord, whether I can correctly judge an individual or not. My ability to correctly discern does nothing to their true eternal destiny.
All I'm saying is that for the sake of argument, let's assume that they have the "real deal" repentance. :D
crakjak
12-11-2007, 11:43 PM
I think it is clear that the normative way that the New Birth Happens in the NT is Acts 2:38, but it is healthy and biblical to seperate salvation from the New Birth experience.
But before I get accused of heresey, I belive the new birth to a part of salvation but does not encompass all there is to salvation.
So what does this mean, from God's perspective faith saves us, faith keeps us, faith will have saved us.
But from the Human responsibility factor, a believer needs to repent of sins, needs to be baptized and there needs to be regeneration for the sin nature to be conquered or ruled.
I think to that it is clear that it isnt a all of nothing thing, salvation is a process.
And I thought it was the blood of Jesus, that saves us?:itsover
Jimmy Carter tells a story in one of his books about a person who was a "soul winner." He was working on a prospect. He'd made his pitch and wanted to close the deal. He asked a man several times very pointedly, "Are you a Christian?" The man reached into his pocket, took out a piece of paper and a pencil, and then wrote something on the paper. Handing the paper to the "soul winner" he said, "These are the names of some folks who have known me for a long time. They can tell you whether I'm a Christian or not."
Jesus said that we can tell the real ones by their fruit, their love toward one another. Of course, things like that can be faked and a false front put up for a while, but, give people some time, watch how they react in adverse or difficult circumstances, watch how they treat people who don't have anything to provide to them for personal gain or recognition. In time you'll see who's real and who is not.
Brother Price
12-12-2007, 03:22 AM
And I thought it was the blood of Jesus, that saves us? :itsover
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. {Ephesians 2:8-9}
RevDWW
12-12-2007, 06:05 AM
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. {Ephesians 2:8-9}
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
philjones
12-12-2007, 09:06 AM
Thanks for the compliment, I really like your new pic, it's very flattering.
Is that a misspelling? I think you meant to type "FATTERING" ROFL
Also, how would you know how Flattering it is. That might not even be me... I could have stolen all those pictures of that family from some web site.:ranting
philjones
12-12-2007, 09:08 AM
We don't and that is the point. If you were to see a genuine aligator skin brief case that cost $1,000 and that is what you fancy you might find it as a good investment because the case shoud actually cost over 3k. You might wannna take it. But you would never know if it was really genuine. Only the maker knows if it is genuine. We don't.
First, you do not measure it. We do not judege people by motives, but by their actions, yes? God judges by motives. It is up to God to judge the "quick and the dead." Our job is not to decipher whether one is saved or not. It is our job to lead them to Jesus and He alone does the work. I have a friend that his family owns a fruit store. He said there are people that sell fruit then there are others that sell FRUIT. Only experts knows what real good fruit looks like. IF someone is really change and has made a decision for Christ then the fruit on their tree will change some casual lookers might not notice right out front, but the ones that are in the 'know' will see the change.
JT,
Why is that you guys on your side of the aisle in this bipartisan arena of faith can get away with the duh... I don't know answer but those who are on our side of the aisle are forbidden to answer any question with only God knows in the ultimate sense of knowledge?
I guess when the game is constantly reinvented you can write the rules anyway you wish! :D
berkeley
12-12-2007, 09:09 AM
5 pages and all that is on my mind is the harem...
Pastor Keith
12-12-2007, 09:45 AM
And I thought it was the blood of Jesus, that saves us?:itsover
I have said this on similar threads, I think it is worth repeating here
The basis of salvation has always been the Blood of Jesus
The requirement of salvation has always been Faith
The object of faith has always been God
The requirement or application for salvation have been different according to the dispensation or covenant
ManOfWord
12-12-2007, 10:16 AM
5 pages and all that is on my mind is the harem...
Dude, take a cold shower!!! :D
RevDWW
12-12-2007, 11:12 AM
I have said this on similar threads, I think it is worth repeating here
The basis of salvation has always been the Blood of Jesus
The requirement of salvation has always been Faith
The object of faith has always been God
The requirement or application for salvation have been different according to the dispensation or covenant
If I had any logical sense I'd say this was a good statement.
Now as to your fourth statement; The requirement or application for salvation according to this dispensation and covenant is?
Pastor Keith
12-12-2007, 12:07 PM
If I had any logical sense I'd say this was a good statement.
Now as to your fourth statement; The requirement or application for salvation according to this dispensation and covenant is?
Well I guess that is what is the issue isn't it.
stmatthew
12-12-2007, 12:15 PM
at new birth
deltaguitar
12-12-2007, 12:37 PM
Rapture? What rapture? That's not in the bible...:santathumb
Ha ha. I think Jimmy Swaggert would call it the resurrection?
crakjak
12-13-2007, 07:50 AM
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. {Ephesians 2:8-9}
Yes, Brother I agree with you!
crakjak
12-13-2007, 07:55 AM
I have said this on similar threads, I think it is worth repeating here
The basis of salvation has always been the Blood of Jesus
The requirement of salvation has always been Faith
The object of faith has always been God
The requirement or application for salvation have been different according to the dispensation or covenant
Not really, it has always been by faith alone, the law was added because of man's rebellion. Abraham is the true example from the beginning, God keeps seeking man to come to Him in faith. Before the law, God was calling whosoever will by faith alone, Jesus came to give man a clear object of his faith, this is God seeking until He "finds".
berkeley
12-13-2007, 10:34 AM
If I had any logical sense I'd say this was a good statement.
Now as to your fourth statement; The requirement or application for salvation according to this dispensation and covenant is?
Dispensations only exist in the mids of men.
Pastor Keith
12-13-2007, 11:50 AM
Dispensations only exist in the mids of men.
Well that is why I put covenants, God is did institute various covenants with man, and the requirements of faith were different for each covenant.
Pastor Keith
12-13-2007, 11:52 AM
Not really, it has always been by faith alone, the law was added because of man's rebellion. Abraham is the true example from the beginning, God keeps seeking man to come to Him in faith. Before the law, God was calling whosoever will by faith alone, Jesus came to give man a clear object of his faith, this is God seeking until He "finds".
Not sure what you meant here, but it is clear that the requirements for faith were objective. Abel offered blood sacrifice, Cain didn't therefore Abel was of faith, Cain's wasn't.
We could get into the whole discussion of showing faith by works, but I am sure you know that already.
RevDWW
12-13-2007, 12:03 PM
Dispensations only exist in the mids of men.
Ok, what's your definition of "Dispensation"?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Dispensation
Any part of this? Seems covenant and dispensation could be pretty close to the same............
J-Roc
12-13-2007, 12:04 PM
Dan,
How do you know the conversion was genuine? How does anyone?
MOW,
How do you measure or determine "genuine" repentance? What quantifies and qualifies one's repentance as 'genuine"? Don't tell me you start fruit inspecting or looking at the works or behaviors or attitudes demonstrated by the repentee. Surely you don't do that?
This is quite simple to answer. The perspective you are looking at this is from a perspective of one person determining someone else's salvation. However, the matter of salvation is personal and the Bible informs one on how to be saved. The preacher teaches what repentance is...the hearer then, alone (with God), knows in their own heart if they have repented genuinely.
So, to answer your question, genuine repentance is determined by the person that is doing the repenting. They alone know their own motives whether genuine or not...they need salvation for themselves, not to show it to someone else. As for us, knowing whether we are dealing with a fellow believer, that is where the fruit will show in due time. Jesus taught us to judge a tree by the fruit it bears, that's how we know if we are dealing with a poser or not.
...but most everyone here is looking at this from a viewpoint that one person has to determine whether the other is saved. Time to change the glasses and look at it from a different vantage point.
Ok, what's your definition of "Dispensation"?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Dispensation
Any part of this? Seems covenant and dispensation could be pretty close to the same............
What ?????
Ok, what's your definition of "Dispensation"?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Dispensation
Any part of this? Seems covenant and dispensation could be pretty close to the same............
Dispensation is time: How about you stop looking at time and start thinking about Eternity!
RevDWW
12-13-2007, 12:08 PM
What ?????
Read this slowly:
A dispensation can be defined as a length or amount of time God deals with mankind in a particular covenant relationship.
RevDWW
12-13-2007, 12:09 PM
Dispensation is time: How about you stop looking at time and start thinking about Eternity!
Say what? How about you think about what the Lord does for use in this "time" we call life and how it effects eternity?
Is every covenant eternal?
Ok, what's your definition of "Dispensation"?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Dispensation
Any part of this? Seems covenant and dispensation could be pretty close to the same............
Read this slowly:
A dispensation can be defined as a length or amount of time God deals with mankind in a particular covenant relationship.
Even if we accepted your definition ...
You stated that they are pretty much the same ... that's like saying a car and highway are putting much the same.
Logic escapes a few when trying to make points.
RevDWW
12-13-2007, 12:16 PM
Even if we accepted your definition ...
You stated that they are pretty much the same ... that's like saying a car and highway are putting much the same.
Pardon me of great wordsmith. :tease I retract that statement and would like to rephrase with:
One is the contract the other is the amount of time it is in force.
DividedThigh
12-13-2007, 12:18 PM
this is what i believe number 1, faith, 2, repentance, 3, baptism, 4, receive the holy ghost, 5, live a godly overcoming life, that is my humble opinion, always has been even when a upc pastor, and now not, dt:horn
this is what i believe number 1, faith, 2, repentance, 3, baptism, 4, receive the holy ghost, 5, live a godly overcoming life, that is my humble opinion, always has been even when a upc pastor, and now not, dt:horn
When are we regenerated .... DT?
DividedThigh
12-13-2007, 12:21 PM
regeneration is a process, it is progressive, that is what i believe, regeneration or becoming a new creature does not equal perfection but a state of heart and relationship to christ, dt
J-Roc
12-13-2007, 12:23 PM
Dan,
How do you know the conversion was genuine? How does anyone?
MOW,
How do you measure or determine "genuine" repentance? What quantifies and qualifies one's repentance as 'genuine"? Don't tell me you start fruit inspecting or looking at the works or behaviors or attitudes demonstrated by the repentee. Surely you don't do that?
This is quite simple to answer. The perspective you are looking at this is from a perspective of one person determining someone else's salvation. However, the matter of salvation is personal and the Bible informs one on how to be saved. The preacher teaches what repentance is...the hearer then, alone (with God), knows in their own heart if they have repented genuinely.
So, to answer your question, genuine repentance is determined by the person that is doing the repenting. They alone know their own motives whether genuine or not...they need salvation for themselves, not to show it to someone else. As for us, knowing whether we are dealing with a fellow believer, that is where the fruit will show in due time. Jesus taught us to judge a tree by the fruit it bears, that's how we know if we are dealing with a poser or not.
...but most everyone here is looking at this from a viewpoint that one person has to determine whether the other is saved. Time to change the glasses and look at it from a different vantage point.
In addition, because many think that they need to determine whether someone else is saved or not (not by admission of the convert, since that is not enough evidently), logically, they think they need a supernatural sign to determine this salvation which is why they lean on tongues (though Dan already pointed out it was a sign for unbeliever and not believers).
Brother Price
12-13-2007, 03:40 PM
The gifts are for the believer, while the signs are for the unbeliever.
RevDWW
12-13-2007, 04:48 PM
In addition, because many think that they need to determine whether someone else is saved or not (not by admission of the convert, since that is not enough evidently), logically, they think they need a supernatural sign to determine this salvation which is why they lean on tongues (though Dan already pointed out it was a sign for unbeliever and not believers).
When is the last time you read the book of Acts? :doh
Ronzo
12-13-2007, 05:00 PM
The gifts are for the believer, while the signs are for the unbeliever.
What does that say about those who demand a sign within the church walls?
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