Should A Minister Be Able To Preach?

[BrotherEastman]

Question, does anyone here believe that a minister who suffers from depression be able to minister? If not, should he turn in his license?

I only ask, because if a preacher is going through major depression, maybe he shouldn't be preaching to a bunch of happy people. Does his depression negate the "call of God"? Should he sit and seek council if he is mentally ill?

I know this might be a dumb thread, but in light of some ex pentecostals who obviously had issues, I was wondering if this was Gods way of sitting a minister down.

[Brother Price]

The call of God is sacred. But, man must be obedient to the call. If a man is doing what the Lord has called him to do, despite his own feelings and emotions, God will bless and anoint that man abundantly!

[Praxeas]

Question, does anyone here believe that a minister who suffers from depression be able to minister? If not, should he turn in his license?

I only ask, because if a preacher is going through major depression, maybe he shouldn't be preaching to a bunch of happy people. Does his depression negate the "call of God"? Should he sit and seek council if he is mentally ill?

I know this might be a dumb thread, but in light of some ex pentecostals who obviously had issues, I was wondering if this was Gods way of sitting a minister down.
Im disappointed. I thought this would be another topic. The topic I thought this was about is does the word "minister" mean someone has to preach...

An alter worker is a minister, even though he may never preach, he or she I should say....they minister when they pray with a seeker...

Depression does not necessarily prevent someone from hearing from God or ministering, though they may really NOT feel like doing it

[BrotherEastman]

The call of God is sacred. But, man must be obedient to the call. If a man is doing what the Lord has called him to do, despite his own feelings and emotions, God will bless and anoint that man abundantly!
What if he is to depressed to obey Gods call?

[BrotherEastman]

Im disappointed. I thought this would be another topic. The topic I thought this was about is does the word "minister" mean someone has to preach...

An alter worker is a minister, even though he may never preach, he or she I should say....they minister when they pray with a seeker...

Depression does not necessarily prevent someone from hearing from God or ministering, though they may really NOT feel like doing it
Sorry to disappoint you Prax. You are right, one doesn't necessarily have to preach to minister.

[AmazingGrace]

Question, does anyone here believe that a minister who suffers from depression be able to minister? If not, should he turn in his license?

I only ask, because if a preacher is going through major depression, maybe he shouldn't be preaching to a bunch of happy people. Does his depression negate the "call of God"? Should he sit and seek council if he is mentally ill?

I know this might be a dumb thread, but in light of some ex pentecostals who obviously had issues, I was wondering if this was Gods way of sitting a minister down.

Just had the funniest thought!!! Have you ever met a pastor going thru a building program? Or a pastor of a home missions church? Or an Evangelist who is wondering where the next invite will be? Seriously this is really kind of an odd question because first of all we know that with ministry comes trials and not everyone is just all jumpin for joy during some of those trials... we all get depressed a little bit when things arent going too great???? So if the going gets tough and we get depressed a little bit then do we run or do we press on through it?

I know there is a difference between serious depression and all but still... I think Bro E needs to look at the bigger picture

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Just had the funniest thought!!! Have you ever met a pastor going thru a building program? Or a pastor of a home missions church? Or an Evangelist who is wondering where the next invite will be? Seriously this is really kind of an odd question because first of all we know that with ministry comes trials and not everyone is just all jumpin for joy during some of those trials... we all get depressed a little bit when things arent going too great???? So if the going gets tough and we get depressed a little bit then do we run or do we press on through it?

I know there is a difference between serious depression and all but still... I think Bro E needs to look at the bigger picture

Ministers who lose a spouse would be depressed indeed.

Now, getting some Pastors to admit depression and SEEK help is another story......

[Ronzo]

What if studying God's word and edifying others is the way they stave off the depression?

Should they quit and give up all hope? Wouldn't that make the depression worse?

Yeah... take away one of the things that gives them joy. That'll help them with their depression! That'll show 'em! How dare they get depressed!??!?!? You get the tar! I'll get the feathers!



Dumb idea...

[AmazingGrace]

What if studying God's word and edifying others is the way they stave off the depression?

Should they quit and give up all hope? Wouldn't that make the depression worse?

Yeah... take away one of the things that gives them joy. That'll help them with their depression! That'll show 'em! How dare they get depressed!??!?!? You get the tar! I'll get the feathers!



Dumb idea...

I totally agree

[Encryptus]

Question, does anyone here believe that a minister who suffers from depression be able to minister?

B.E.,

Personally know G.C. quality evangelists who preached great revivals while in the grip of suicidal depression.

For some reason depression is equated to SAD.

In most cases even clinical depression the person has a flat affect. More often than not its symptoms include LACK of emotion.

Can an experienced evangelist preach through it? Yes

SHOULD they? Totally different question.

However, until Evangelicals as a whole get better educated on the issue. It will continue to be masked, and hidden.

Yes, it is wrong for a Christian to remain in a mental state of sadness. But more often than not clinical depression involves a treatable chemical imbalance.

If your faith allows you to take heart medicine, or insulin for diabetes then you should not hesitate to seek professional medical help.

Should one continue to minister? Impossible to answer, must be evaluated on a case by case basis.

[Ronzo]

I totally agree
Show me a minister or preacher who claims to "have it all together" and I'll show you an EVANG-ELASTIC speaker.

EVERY ONE has issues... some are more visible than others.

[pelathais]

Question, does anyone here believe that a minister who suffers from depression be able to minister? If not, should he turn in his license?

I only ask, because if a preacher is going through major depression, maybe he shouldn't be preaching to a bunch of happy people. Does his depression negate the "call of God"? Should he sit and seek council if he is mentally ill?

I know this might be a dumb thread, but in light of some ex pentecostals who obviously had issues, I was wondering if this was Gods way of sitting a minister down.
It's obviously a complicated issue. But if we are trying to divine the "reasons" God had for "sitting someone down," howcome God doesn't "sit down" adulterers and homosexuals and those who cover up the sins of adulterers and homosexuals?

Now that's depressing! So God instead "sits down those" who have been victimized by the those people while allowing sin to prosper? No wonder the Gospel message is languishing!

God Himself must be hindering the work. Maybe God is depressed? Maybe He has already "sat Himself down?"

[dizzyde]

Just had the funniest thought!!! Have you ever met a pastor going thru a building program? Or a pastor of a home missions church? Or an Evangelist who is wondering where the next invite will be? Seriously this is really kind of an odd question because first of all we know that with ministry comes trials and not everyone is just all jumpin for joy during some of those trials... we all get depressed a little bit when things arent going too great???? So if the going gets tough and we get depressed a little bit then do we run or do we press on through it?

I know there is a difference between serious depression and all but still... I think Bro E needs to look at the bigger picture

Funny thing is, my pastor walked into the church office the other day and said "I understand now why a lot of pastors retire after a building program" ! LOL!

On a more serious note, I have actually experienced having a pastor (not my current pastor) who was dealing with a serious clinical depression.

As I view this as medical condition, not spiritual, I feel the same way about it as I would if I had a pastor who was dealing with aggressive cancer or any seriously debilitating disease.

It is in their best interest, and the congregations best interest for them to step aside for a season to deal with whatever it is, and let someone that they trust carry the load for a while.

I have experienced clinical depression myself, and it is very consuming, there are very few things that I remember clearly from that time frame, it is a big blank spot in my mind.

I can't imagine trying to pastor in that condition. To say that because he is "Man of God", he should be able to overcome it is a little simplistic to me. Once again, the key word here is MAN, he is human like the rest of us, we are all subject to human frailty.

[pelathais]

Funny thing is, my pastor walked into the church office the other day and said "I understand now why a lot of pastors retire after a building program" ! LOL!

On a more serious note, I have actually experienced having a pastor (not my current pastor) who was dealing with a serious clinical depression.

As I view this as medical condition, not spiritual, I feel the same way about it as I would if I had a pastor who was dealing with aggressive cancer or any seriously debilitating disease.

It is in their best interest, and the congregations best interest for them to step aside for a season to deal with whatever it is, and let someone that they trust carry the load for a while.

I have experienced clinical depression myself, and it is very consuming, there are very few things that I remember clearly from that time frame, it is a big blank spot in my mind.

I can't imagine trying to pastor in that condition. To say that because he is "Man of God", he should be able to overcome it is a little simplistic to me. Once again, the key word here is MAN, he is human like the rest of us, we are all subject to human frailty.
Excellent thoughts Dizzyde.

[James Griffin]

B.E.,

Personally know G.C. quality evangelists who preached great revivals while in the grip of suicidal depression.

For some reason depression is equated to SAD.

In most cases even clinical depression the person has a flat affect. More often than not its symptoms include LACK of emotion.

Can an experienced evangelist preach through it? Yes

SHOULD they? Totally different question.

However, until Evangelicals as a whole get better educated on the issue. It will continue to be masked, and hidden.

Yes, it is wrong for a Christian to remain in a mental state of sadness. But more often than not clinical depression involves a treatable chemical imbalance.

If your faith allows you to take heart medicine, or insulin for diabetes then you should not hesitate to seek professional medical help.

Should one continue to minister? Impossible to answer, must be evaluated on a case by case basis.

Agreed.

As one who experienced clinical depression about 10 years ago, I can attest it is still stigmatized. If not for the intervention of an observant friend I might not be here. She recognized the signs.

And yes at the time I was successfully carrying on an active felony trial practice. A professional speaker can mask.

It turned out to be a serotonin imbalance corrected by a few months of SSRIs.

Pet peeve is those who believe they are some kind of "happy pills", if your serotonin is NOT out of whack they don't have an effect.

[dizzyde]

Agreed.

As one who experienced clinical depression about 10 years ago, I can attest it is still stigmatized. If not for the intervention of an observant friend I might not be here. She recognized the signs.

And yes at the time I was successfully carrying on an active felony trial practice. A professional speaker can mask.

It turned out to be a serotonin imbalance corrected by a few months of SSRIs.

Pet peeve is those who believe they are some kind of "happy pills", if your serotonin is NOT out of whack they don't have an effect.


We agree completely!! :highfive

[embonpoint]

Every time I see the title to this thread I want to say, "Not neccessarily but a preach sure needs to be able to minister!"

[Harmony]

Question, does anyone here believe that a minister who suffers from depression be able to minister? If not, should he turn in his license?

I only ask, because if a preacher is going through major depression, maybe he shouldn't be preaching to a bunch of happy people. Does his depression negate the "call of God"? Should he sit and seek council if he is mentally ill?

I know this might be a dumb thread, but in light of some ex pentecostals who obviously had issues, I was wondering if this was Gods way of sitting a minister down.

I am so shocked right now!! I was thinking of this very thing on the way to work this morning!!

[Harmony]

I will gather my thoughts and post more later.

[ManOfWord]

A pastor/minister really isn't worth his weight in salt if he hasn't been able to work his way through a bout(s) of depression. Not all depression is clinical. Pastors who really care about people and the condition of their church are quite susceptible to depression due to the fact that they're always longing to see more happen and more live changed.

How do I know that? Been there, done that! It comes with the territory. NO ONE who enters the ministry can expect a bed of roses with no spiritual attacks that at times lead you into and out of a "funk." Just part of life in the ministry. :D

[Rhoni]

Question, does anyone here believe that a minister who suffers from depression be able to minister? If not, should he turn in his license?

I only ask, because if a preacher is going through major depression, maybe he shouldn't be preaching to a bunch of happy people. Does his depression negate the "call of God"? Should he sit and seek council if he is mentally ill?

I know this might be a dumb thread, but in light of some ex pentecostals who obviously had issues, I was wondering if this was Gods way of sitting a minister down.

Depression is not from God and a minister who has it need only lead by example:
1. If it is a chemical imbalance then they should be evaluated and treated with the lowest dose of medication that is possible.
2. If it is situational then they should do what they preach to others to do about it: trust God and give the situation over to Him.

God will not use depression to 'sit a minister down'. That is just another man's opinion of what God has going on which is usually wrong. Depression is not from God.:star

Blessings, Rhoni

[Rhoni]

B.E.,

Personally know G.C. quality evangelists who preached great revivals while in the grip of suicidal depression.

For some reason depression is equated to SAD.

In most cases even clinical depression the person has a flat affect. More often than not its symptoms include LACK of emotion.

Can an experienced evangelist preach through it? Yes

SHOULD they? Totally different question.

However, until Evangelicals as a whole get better educated on the issue. It will continue to be masked, and hidden.

Yes, it is wrong for a Christian to remain in a mental state of sadness. But more often than not clinical depression involves a treatable chemical imbalance.

If your faith allows you to take heart medicine, or insulin for diabetes then you should not hesitate to seek professional medical help.

Should one continue to minister? Impossible to answer, must be evaluated on a case by case basis.


:santathumb:horn

[Ronzo]

Some people are just looking for reasons why this one or that one "shouldn't preach"... As if anyone is perfect has has things all figured out...

I'm reminded of some words I read somewhere...


Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.


The concept is eerily familiar... Make a whole bunch of edicts about why this one or that one shouldn't be allowed to do this or that... and not do anything to see if they can help anyone get through what they're going through...

So much for loving one another "as I have loved you"...

[staysharp]

What if he is to depressed to obey Gods call?

Your thread is too depressing!!!

[OneAccord]

This is a difficult question to answer with the information thats been given. The problem is with the word "depression" and how it is defined.

Some of the greatest minds in history are those of people who would be diagnosed as clinically depressed by todays standards. It is said Abraham Lincoln suffered from terrible depression. The 19th century preacher Spurgeon was severely depressed. I read an "analysis" of Jesus based on His life as given in the Gospels. He was diagnosed as "suicidal" and clinically depressed. Every preacher, every minister, and everybody, for that matter, suffers from depression in some degree or another. Its not their "illness" that determines whether or not they should fulfill their lifes role. It is how they deal with, or handle their depression. How they respond to it...that is the key in determining their ability to lead. Think of King Saul. His depression lead him to react in irrational ways. He lost his leadership abilities. Others, like David, after his sin, was severely depressed. But Davids depression lead him to pen some of the greatest Psalms of his career, many of which help us to deal with our depression and anxieties.

I wouldn't say anyone who suffers from depression should be removed from their position of authority, unless their "illness" diminshes their leadership abilities.

[BrotherEastman]

Depression is not from God and a minister who has it need only lead by example:
1. If it is a chemical imbalance then they should be evaluated and treated with the lowest dose of medication that is possible.
2. If it is situational then they should do what they preach to others to do about it: trust God and give the situation over to Him.

God will not use depression to 'sit a minister down'. That is just another man's opinion of what God has going on which is usually wrong. Depression is not from God.:star

Blessings, Rhoni
But what if a minister suffered lots of abuse as a child, and thinks he is called because he heard ''a voice"? There are people who are in psyche wards that hear voices all the time.

[Neck]

Question, does anyone here believe that a minister who suffers from depression be able to minister? If not, should he turn in his license?

I only ask, because if a preacher is going through major depression, maybe he shouldn't be preaching to a bunch of happy people. Does his depression negate the "call of God"? Should he sit and seek council if he is mentally ill?

I know this might be a dumb thread, but in light of some ex pentecostals who obviously had issues, I was wondering if this was Gods way of sitting a minister down.

Last time I checked depression is not a sin.

[Encryptus]

But what if a minister suffered lots of abuse as a child, and thinks he is called because he heard ''a voice"? There are people who are in psyche wards that hear voices all the time.

Depression- your original question, has NOTHING to do with "hearing voices"

If you are suggesting on starting a thread on how to you know if the voice you are hearing is of God- that would be a different theme altogether.

Sounds almost as though you have a particular "friend" in mind. Visiting with a professional should be paramount if there is a possibility of psychosis.

[Nahum]

Two thoughts:


1. Elijah under a juniper and then in a cave.

2. Jonah underneath it all.


Did God use them during their depression?

[Ronzo]

But what if a minister suffered lots of abuse as a child, and thinks he is called because he heard ''a voice"? There are people who are in psyche wards that hear voices all the time.
Stay with us Easty... don't drift off into la-la-land.

[BrotherEastman]

Depression- your original question, has NOTHING to do with "hearing voices"

If you are suggesting on starting a thread on how to you know if the voice you are hearing is of God- that would be a different theme altogether.

Sounds almost as though you have a particular "friend" in mind. Visiting with a professional should be paramount if there is a possibility of psychosis.
But I thought that if someone heard voices, it was because they were depressed.

[Ronzo]

Two thoughts:


1. Elijah under a juniper and then in a cave.

2. Jonah underneath it all.


Did God use them during their depression?
No. He sat them down, told them to repent of their depression, and refuse to use them until they got right with him and becamse perfect.



Then there's the other side of the coin which says, God used a donkey so the fact that they were depressed doesn't mean it's ok to be depressed.

[BrotherEastman]

Stay with us Easty... don't drift off into la-la-land.
sorry.

[dizzyde]

But I thought that if someone heard voices, it was because they were depressed.

If someone is hearing voices, depression is not the issue. That is not a symptom of depression. Someone who is hearing voices should probably be seen by a mental health professional (read doctor) as soon as possible.

[Scott Hutchinson]

If my understanding is correct isn't depression due to a chemical imbalance with the brain or something,so if a minister is getting help and taking medication why couldn't he preach ?
People preach who have physical conditions and such due to issues in their body.
If people preach who have medical conditions then ,couldn't someone who suffers from a chemical imbalance preach as well ?

[Jack Shephard]

Having known someone that went through the lose of a child and almost going nuts in the process for him what happened was the church board and other friends called a meeting to discuss this type of thing. What happened was the church brought several different ministers in and did two week revival type deals. I can not remember the amount of men that came and preached, but this went on for about a year. The man stayed as pastor, but it took awhile for him to get back in the pulpit and the truth is the man was a better minister and preacher than he was before.

I said all that to say this, I think it is very important to surround yourself-as a minister- with people you can trust no matter what happens. You will know that no matter what goes on they have yours and the church best intrest at heart. Having a good base group such as a church board or advisory board made up of ministers out side that local assemblycould be key in getting around these types of things as they arise.

[BrotherEastman]

If my understanding is correct isn't depression due to a chemical imbalance with the brain or something,so if a minister is getting help and taking medication why couldn't he preach ?
People preach who have physical conditions and such due to issues in their body.
If people preach who have medical conditions then ,couldn't someone who suffers from a chemical imbalance preach as well ?
Where would his faith be if he had to take medications? Would that in of itself disqualify him?

[BrotherEastman]

Having known someone that went through the lose of a child and almost going nuts in the process for him what happened was the church board and other friends called a meeting to discuss this type of thing. What happened was the church brought several different ministers in and did two week revival type deals. I can not remember the amount of men that came and preached, but this went on for about a year. The man stayed as pastor, but it took awhile for him to get back in the pulpit and the truth is the man was a better minister and preacher than he was before.

I said all that to say this, I think it is very important to surround yourself-as a minister- with people you can trust no matter what happens. You will know that no matter what goes on they have yours and the church best intrest at heart. Having a good base group such as a church board or advisory board made up of ministers out side that local assemblycould be key in getting around these types of things as they arise.
Did this minister get away from the church setting for awhile?

[Scott Hutchinson]

Where would his faith be if he had to take medications? Would that in of itself disqualify him?

If The Lord was agains't doctors and medicine what did Luke write books of the Bible ?
No I don't think taking medicine disqualifys one from Christian service.

[Rhoni]

Agreed.

As one who experienced clinical depression about 10 years ago, I can attest it is still stigmatized. If not for the intervention of an observant friend I might not be here. She recognized the signs.

And yes at the time I was successfully carrying on an active felony trial practice. A professional speaker can mask.

It turned out to be a serotonin imbalance corrected by a few months of SSRIs.

Pet peeve is those who believe they are some kind of "happy pills", if your serotonin is NOT out of whack they don't have an effect.

Bro. Griffin,

You are correct about misdiagnosis in the past. The signs and symptoms have lent credence to the diagnosis and let's face it...in the past the church has looked at depression as something you can just 'get over' and should.

A chemical imbalance can be helped with short-term medication treatment to right the neurotransmitters in the brain. The neuro-transmitters are like telephone wires that the right side of the brain and the left side of the brain utilize to communicate/send messages. If the communication is interrupted by a chemical imbalance then a person exhibits syptoms such as; an inability to concentrate, inability to make decisions in the individulas best interst, inability to function at a level conducive to 'normal' adult daily living, and it plays havoc with intimate relationships then medication tx is the best treatment.

Thank God for someone who saw the signs and symptoms you were exhibiting and pointed you in the right direction. I only refer clients to psychiatrists if they are unable to participate in therapy because of lack of concentration and inability to function. Unless one is diagnosed with a serious mental illness such as; schizophrenia, bi-polar, chronic manic depression, or any of the above with active psychosis in which long-term use of medication tx is necessary to function, then a few months combined with counseling should be sufficient to get back on track.

I agree with those who said that a preacher's ability to function despite situations which cause temporary depression is what is important. I think some people just like to infere in God's business and decide when a preacher/minister should not minsiter anymore. These pillars of the church need a good prayer meeting and an attitude adjustment. God doesn't need their help.:rudolph

Blessigns, Rhoni

[HeavenlyOne]

Question, does anyone here believe that a minister who suffers from depression be able to minister? If not, should he turn in his license?

I only ask, because if a preacher is going through major depression, maybe he shouldn't be preaching to a bunch of happy people. Does his depression negate the "call of God"? Should he sit and seek council if he is mentally ill?

I know this might be a dumb thread, but in light of some ex pentecostals who obviously had issues, I was wondering if this was Gods way of sitting a minister down.

Should a man who has cancer minister to a bunch of healthy folks?

I'm not sure why you think church is full of happy people, but that's far from the truth, I don't care where one lives or attends church.

And depression isn't a mental illness. Just a mental condition and easily treatable in most cases.

[Jack Shephard]

Did this minister get away from the church setting for awhile?

Well this man did not go crazy, but became so weak he could not do anything which is not altogether different that going crazy at times. This man did not leave the church. He actually stayed and helped in the business portion as much as he could, which basically all that meant was that he went into the office and made phone calls. When he did go to the church he actually was not a big help cause the others in the church stepped up and helped in all the everyday running of the church. This man did later take back over the church and was the GS of the ALJC for a while.

I may have some of the details mixed up, but this was about what happened. He was there the day his son drowned and it almost destroyed him. His name is Steve Willson. He is a great man of God from Mississippi. He would be a great person to talk to, if this thread is a real case that is close to you. He will be able to help guide people in this type of thing.

[HeavenlyOne]

B.E.,

Personally know G.C. quality evangelists who preached great revivals while in the grip of suicidal depression.

For some reason depression is equated to SAD.

In most cases even clinical depression the person has a flat affect. More often than not its symptoms include LACK of emotion.

Can an experienced evangelist preach through it? Yes

SHOULD they? Totally different question.

However, until Evangelicals as a whole get better educated on the issue. It will continue to be masked, and hidden.

Yes, it is wrong for a Christian to remain in a mental state of sadness. But more often than not clinical depression involves a treatable chemical imbalance.

If your faith allows you to take heart medicine, or insulin for diabetes then you should not hesitate to seek professional medical help.

Should one continue to minister? Impossible to answer, must be evaluated on a case by case basis.

I think the biggest problem with that statement is that people who suffer from medical conditions aren't seen as someone unstable, but mention a mental problem and you might as well admit you are like Sybil or demon possessed.

It's a sad day in our society when the church views a brain illness with the mindset of 1960's and beyond. Gone are the days when we locked up people for brain illnesses. Gone are the days when we exorcised those people, believing their problems to be demonic.

The church needs to let go of those stigmas.

[HeavenlyOne]

But what if a minister suffered lots of abuse as a child, and thinks he is called because he heard ''a voice"? There are people who are in psyche wards that hear voices all the time.

We will know them by their fruits.

[HeavenlyOne]

But I thought that if someone heard voices, it was because they were depressed.

Nope. That's schizophrenia.

[HeavenlyOne]

Where would his faith be if he had to take medications? Would that in of itself disqualify him?

Me thinks you are pot-stirring with this post!!!!

[Rhoni]

I think the biggest problem with that statement is that people who suffer from medical conditions aren't seen as someone unstable, but mention a mental problem and you might as well admit you are like Sybil or demon possessed.

It's a sad day in our society when the church views a brain illness with the mindset of 1960's and beyond. Gone are the days when we locked up people for brain illnesses. Gone are the days when we exorcised those people, believing their problems to be demonic.

The church needs to let go of those stigmas.

HeavenlyOne,

You have made many good comments on this thread. This is an excellent post:star

Blessings, Rhoni

[HeavenlyOne]

HeavenlyOne,

You have made many good comments on this thread. This is an excellent post:star

Blessings, Rhoni

Thank you.

I'm trying to help educate people on mental conditions and illnesses even among those in the church.

If we opened our eyes, we'd be shocked at what we would see in others and how their smiles cover well the problems going on.