View Full Version : Are Apostolics Wise?
staysharp
12-14-2007, 08:03 AM
Since this is a day of great wisdom, shall we consider this deep and philosophical thought.
Just because you are Apostolic does that make one wise?
Does having perceived truth or revelation make on wise?
Because you baptize in Jesus Name does that make you wiser than other Christians?
Does having the H.G. make you wiser?
And lastly, does education or learning give you wisdom?
Does wisdom equate to intellect? Many geniuses can't function in the real world.
Does too much learning actually make you mad? (as in crazy)
Raised in the church and in the ministry most of my adult life, I've witnessed pastors, preachers and laity alike do some pretty dumb stuff.
If we really do have the full revelation of the Godhead, the full revelation of Salvation, the full revelation of the H.G., why are we so backward and stupid at times?
Brother Price
12-14-2007, 08:06 AM
Being Apostolic does not mean one is wise. It means that one has received from the Lord.
staysharp
12-14-2007, 08:08 AM
Being Apostolic does not mean one is wise. It means that one has received from the Lord.
Received from the Lord what? If any man lack wisdom, let him ask of God who gives it liberally...If we are so spiritual, why are we so stupid? Have we not asked for wisdom?
Mrs. LPW
12-14-2007, 08:45 AM
Apostolics should be harmless as doves and wise as serpents, but you know...
DividedThigh
12-14-2007, 08:47 AM
i believe wisdom is acknowledging god and living according to his precepts so of course apostolics should be wise, now are they, oh no, not all the time for any of us, lol,dt:bells
Titus2Mom
12-14-2007, 08:48 AM
Very truthfully, wisdom is something I pray for repeatedly, and have ever since I was "birthed" as a child of God.
Proverbs 9:10 - "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding."
But it is the wisdom of the Lord that I pray for, not the wisdom of man, nor the wisdom of this world.
Cindy
12-14-2007, 08:49 AM
I would like to be wiser but then there are some things I just don't want to know.
RevBuddy
12-14-2007, 08:52 AM
Sorry, but "dumb post."
staysharp
12-14-2007, 09:29 AM
Sorry, but "dumb post."
Just when I was beginning to like you mighty mouse. It's only dumb to those who have no wisdom.
RandyWayne
12-14-2007, 09:35 AM
Christians ARE told to be wise and to "test all things"..... Yet far too many are all to willing to appeal to the "God of the gaps" for most of their knowledge.
staysharp
12-14-2007, 09:39 AM
Christians ARE told to be wise and to "test all things"..... Yet far too many are all to willing to appeal to the "God of the gaps" for most of their knowledge.
Excellent point. Vulnerability is a by product of ignorance. My experience has led me to question the wisdom of people who claim spirituality and holiness.
Holiness biblically defined is "ones proximity to God". How can Apostolics claim holiness, without wisdom? Assumptions, suppositions, jumping to conclusions, this is not wisdom, but stupidity.
Sister Alvear
12-14-2007, 09:39 AM
I have seen people fall for about any new thing that comes along...
Parson
12-14-2007, 11:10 AM
I remember Pastor Charles Grisham from Detroit preaching this in Georgia...
"If a judge gets the Holy Ghost, you have a saved judge.
If a policeman gets the Holy Ghost, you have a saved policeman.
If a dingbat gets the Holy Ghost, you have a saved dingbat."
Unless the elder is in error, I reckon that the Holy Ghost does not MAKE one smarter.
However, the Holy Ghost WILL lead and guide you into all truth. Trouble is--you gotta follow.
Blessings
Parson
Sept5SavedTeen
12-14-2007, 11:23 AM
I've been around a few churches and denominations, just to name a few and there were plenty of dumb; Catholics, Congregationalists, Methodists, Seventh-Day Advenist, Charismatics and AoG people... Why the need to pick on Apostolics? There are plenty of people dumber than us and some smarter than us, but none of them are saved like us, and whatever they have isn't what I want, cause I've been there and done that, and the grass is greener right here- in GOD's Church!
GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex
freeatlast
12-14-2007, 11:34 AM
I've been around a few churches and denominations, just to name a few and there were plenty of dumb; Catholics, Congregationalists, Methodists, Seventh-Day Advenist, Charismatics and AoG people... Why the need to pick on Apostolics? There are plenty of people dumber than us and some smarter than us, but none of them are saved like us, and whatever they have isn't what I want, cause I've been there and done that, and the grass is greener right here- in GOD's Church!
GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex
It is our Elitist attitude that is our plague. I got the holy ghost and they don't.
So many stop right therre and stdy the word no further for themselves.
We have among us some of the most biblically ignorant people in the world.
Before you all shoot me, we do have some among us who have studied the word in depth.
For instance, [you] one of the most studious posters among us. Always right on topic. Always the right answer. [you] is the the greatest all time smartest poster on this forum. :jolly:jolly :christmasjig
Mrs. LPW
12-14-2007, 11:37 AM
It is our Elitist attitude that is our plague. I got the holy ghost and they don't.
So many stop right therre and stdy the word no further for themselves.
We have among us some of the most biblically ignorant people in the world.
Before you all shoot me, we do have some among us who have studied the word in depth.
For instance, [you] one of the most studious posters among us. Always right on topic. Always the right answer. [you] is the the greatest all time smartest poster on this forum. :jolly:jolly :christmasjig
... Yes yes.. I really think that [you] is the most studious! Pastor you are the wisest though.
staysharp
12-14-2007, 11:39 AM
It is our Elitist attitude that is our plague. I got the holy ghost and they don't.
So many stop right therre and stdy the word no further for themselves.
We have among us some of the most biblically ignorant people in the world.
Before you all shoot me, we do have some among us who have studied the word in depth.
For instance, [you] one of the most studious posters among us. Always right on topic. Always the right answer. [you] is the the greatest all time smartest poster on this forum. :jolly:jolly :christmasjig
I'd rather belong to the mutual admiration society any day. Why are you always playing with your big fish?
freeatlast
12-14-2007, 11:39 AM
... and after that his signature says... "I'm just kidding..." He's doing that "you" thing again folks!!!
Gotsha again [you]
staysharp
12-14-2007, 11:40 AM
I remember Pastor Charles Grisham from Detroit preaching this in Georgia...
"If a judge gets the Holy Ghost, you have a saved judge.
If a policeman gets the Holy Ghost, you have a saved policeman.
If a dingbat gets the Holy Ghost, you have a saved dingbat."
Unless the elder is in error, I reckon that the Holy Ghost does not MAKE one smarter.
However, the Holy Ghost WILL lead and guide you into all truth. Trouble is--you gotta follow.
Blessings
Parson
I agree, but the bible tells us to ask God for wisdom and he will give it to us. Again, if we are so spiritual, why are we so STUPID!!!
staysharp
12-14-2007, 11:41 AM
... Yes yes.. I really think that [you] is the most studious! Pastor you are the wisest though.
I like you too...tell monkey man hello for me. We grew up together, he just doesn't know it. I'm incognito.
Sept5SavedTeen
12-14-2007, 11:42 AM
It is our Elitist attitude that is our plague. I got the holy ghost and they don't.
So many stop right therre and stdy the word no further for themselves.
We have among us some of the most biblically ignorant people in the world.
Before you all shoot me, we do have some among us who have studied the word in depth.
For instance, [you] one of the most studious posters among us. Always right on topic. Always the right answer. [you] is the the greatest all time smartest poster on this forum. :jolly:jolly :christmasjig
AHHHH! That's so confusing that thing where everyone's name shows up.
Anyways, call it elitist, but I do believe there is one way to salvation. Now GOD can be more merciful than HE said in HIS Word, but we're not promised that. So are "they" saved like us, no.
GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex
freeatlast
12-14-2007, 11:46 AM
AHHHH! That's so confusing that thing where everyone's name shows up.
Anyways, call it elitist, but I do believe there is one way to salvation. Now GOD can be more merciful than HE said in HIS Word, but we're not promised that. So are "they" saved like us, no.
GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex
You correct Sept5SavedTeen, they are saved by grace thru their faith...not like us, by our works. :christmaskiss
Sept5SavedTeen
12-14-2007, 11:49 AM
Bro,
Acts 2:38 was not salvation by "works" for me.
GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex
Mrs. LPW
12-14-2007, 11:50 AM
I like you too...tell monkey man hello for me. We grew up together...
... wow... so were you institutialized for very long afterward:jolly?
institutianalized... how do you spell that?
staysharp
12-14-2007, 11:57 AM
Bro,
Acts 2:38 was not salvation by "works" for me.
GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex
This is not very wise...why is it that you guys can't look past acts 2:38? This is exactly what I'm talking about.
staysharp
12-14-2007, 11:59 AM
... wow... so were you institutialized for very long afterward:jolly?
institutianalized... how do you spell that?
You can download spellchecker for internet explorer for free. It'll work with any web page. I've known the Ramirez family my whole life.
I agree, but the bible tells us to ask God for wisdom and he will give it to us. Again, if we are so spiritual, why are we so STUPID!!!
who says "we" are so stupid? why would we be more wise than anyone else?
the bible says "get wisdom" it doesnt say you get it by virtue of getting the Holy Ghost.
also, what kind of wisdom are you talking about? Wisdom that is from above or human wisdom?
staysharp
12-14-2007, 12:51 PM
who says "we" are so stupid? why would we be more wise than anyone else?
the bible says "get wisdom" it doesnt say you get it by virtue of getting the Holy Ghost.
also, what kind of wisdom are you talking about? Wisdom that is from above or human wisdom?
We is a universal term. We would be more wise because we are supposed to be more spiritual. As I stated earlier, the holier you are the closer you are to God. If we are really holy, we should be wise too.
Solomon received wisdom from above. All wisdom comes from God. All intellect comes from God. There is no such thing as human wisdom. Any wisdom we receive would be a gift from God.
My point is this; many people think just because they receive the H.G., they suddenly have all wisdom and refuse to open their minds to greater understanding. This is evidenced by ignorant thinking. The possibility of being wrong eludes many.
Carpenter
12-14-2007, 01:05 PM
Since this is a day of great wisdom, shall we consider this deep and philosophical thought.
Just because you are Apostolic does that make one wise?
Does having perceived truth or revelation make on wise?
Because you baptize in Jesus Name does that make you wiser than other Christians?
Does having the H.G. make you wiser?
And lastly, does education or learning give you wisdom?
Does wisdom equate to intellect? Many geniuses can't function in the real world.
Does too much learning actually make you mad? (as in crazy)
Raised in the church and in the ministry most of my adult life, I've witnessed pastors, preachers and laity alike do some pretty dumb stuff.
If we really do have the full revelation of the Godhead, the full revelation of Salvation, the full revelation of the H.G., why are we so backward and stupid at times?
I have learned that while the Holy Ghost can direct behavior, the Holy Ghost does not instantly change someone's nature, nor does it change personality.
I know some pretty stupid people who have the Holy Ghost, who have advance degrees, and conversely some of the wisest and most intelligent people I have ever met had neither.
This is the basis for one of MY conundrums, why is it that folks in the UPC believes that everyone in the mainstream who receives the Holy Ghost will soon be knocking at their door.
We is a universal term. We would be more wise because we are supposed to be more spiritual. As I stated earlier, the holier you are the closer you are to God. If we are really holy, we should be wise too.
Solomon received wisdom from above. All wisdom comes from God. All intellect comes from God. There is no such thing as human wisdom. Any wisdom we receive would be a gift from God.
My point is this; many people think just because they receive the H.G., they suddenly have all wisdom and refuse to open their minds to greater understanding. This is evidenced by ignorant thinking. The possibility of being wrong eludes many.
the good think is, we have identified another point to disagree on! LOL!
I know some folk that are as lost as two boys kissing that are wise in the ways of the world.
being spiritual doesnt make one wise. it makes one spiritual.
being Apostolic doesnt make one wise it makes one Apostolic.
staysharp
12-14-2007, 01:16 PM
I have learned that while the Holy Ghost can direct behavior, the Holy Ghost does not instantly change someone's nature, nor does it change personality.
I know some pretty stupid people who have the Holy Ghost, who have advance degrees, and conversely some of the wisest and most intelligent people I have ever met had neither.
This is the basis for one of MY conundrums, why is it that folks in the UPC believes that everyone in the mainstream who receives the Holy Ghost will soon be knocking at their door.
Carp, I agree with your post. I am a little dumbfounded with the statement "the H.G. does not instantly change someone's nature". This tends to fly against traditional thinking of what happens when one is born again. I think I know what you mean, and I would agree to an extent.
Again, I ask you does intelligence bring wisdom. Does having knowledge of nuclear physics make one wise?
You're a smart guy, does that make you wise? Solomon was wise, but wasn't very smart at times.
As to your last statement I would equate that to spiritual elitism or religious pride.
staysharp
12-14-2007, 01:17 PM
the good think is, we have identified another point to disagree on! LOL!
I know some folk that are as lost as two boys kissing that are wise in the ways of the world.
being spiritual doesnt make one wise. it makes one spiritual.
being Apostolic doesnt make one wise it makes one Apostolic.
Hmnn, so what you are saying is because you are spiritual or apostolic does not make you wise. Interesting.
ChTatum
12-14-2007, 01:39 PM
Intellect and wisdom are often miles apart. Wisdom is the application of intellect.
Hmnn, so what you are saying is because you are spiritual or apostolic does not make you wise. Interesting.
that is what I am saying.
Intellect and wisdom are often miles apart. Wisdom is the application of intellect.
This is a great point.
wisdom isnt being smart.
if one was born dumb as a box of rocks, they may appear to be unwise when really they just dont have much smarts to apply wisdom to.
staysharp
12-14-2007, 01:45 PM
Intellect and wisdom are often miles apart. Wisdom is the application of intellect.
Very nice! So smart people should be wise as long as they apply their intellect? Is it possible to be wise without having intellect? There are plenty of rich dumb people who made millions by mistake.
Carpenter
12-14-2007, 02:05 PM
Carp, I agree with your post. I am a little dumbfounded with the statement "the H.G. does not instantly change someone's nature". This tends to fly against traditional thinking of what happens when one is born again. I think I know what you mean, and I would agree to an extent.
Again, I ask you does intelligence bring wisdom. Does having knowledge of nuclear physics make one wise?
You're a smart guy, does that make you wise? Solomon was wise, but wasn't very smart at times.
As to your last statement I would equate that to spiritual elitism or religious pride.
I do not believe that the Holy Ghost changes the nature of an individual, the scripture never says anything about that. If an individual is short tempered, opinionated, outspoken, if they like Jazz, if their favorite crayola color is brick red, all these will be the same after they get the Holy Ghost. Unfortunately their tastes in other things will be the same too.
Does intelligence bring wisdom? Yes because an intelligent person will foster those things that will make him wise. Information makes you wise, experience makes you wise, observation makes you wise and the intelligent individual will continue to embrace those things that will improve his character as well as to avoid repeating history and making the same mistakes twice.
Solomon's intelligence made him wise when he had the motivation to be intelligent. Afterward, he still had the intelligence, but he relied on something else to influence and motivate the source of his wisdom or lack of wisdom after the fact.
Carpenter
12-14-2007, 02:06 PM
Intellect and wisdom are often miles apart. Wisdom is the application of intellect.
Goodness, I just typed a book saying the exact same thing and he said it here in one sentence!
Good form ChT!
John Atkinson
12-14-2007, 04:05 PM
I've been called a wise guy before, that count?
BrotherEastman
12-14-2007, 04:11 PM
Received from the Lord what? If any man lack wisdom, let him ask of God who gives it liberally...If we are so spiritual, why are we so stupid? Have we not asked for wisdom?
Don't ask for something you just might get.
John Atkinson
12-14-2007, 04:11 PM
I do not believe that the Holy Ghost changes the nature of an individual, the scripture never says anything about that. If an individual is short tempered, opinionated, outspoken, if they like Jazz, if their favorite crayola color is brick red, all these will be the same after they get the Holy Ghost. Unfortunately their tastes in other things will be the same too.
Does intelligence bring wisdom? Yes because an intelligent person will foster those things that will make him wise. Information makes you wise, experience makes you wise, observation makes you wise and the intelligent individual will continue to embrace those things that will improve his character as well as to avoid repeating history and making the same mistakes twice.
Solomon's intelligence made him wise when he had the motivation to be intelligent. Afterward, he still had the intelligence, but he relied on something else to influence and motivate the source of his wisdom or lack of wisdom after the fact.
On the whole I agree with this. I believe the Holy Ghost gives us the ability to overcome our baser natures and grown into the nature of Christ. God imparts wisdom, this is biblical, but I rather think that impartation occurs over years of learning and growth not so much in a bright flash.
staysharp
12-14-2007, 04:42 PM
I do not believe that the Holy Ghost changes the nature of an individual, the scripture never says anything about that. If an individual is short tempered, opinionated, outspoken, if they like Jazz, if their favorite crayola color is brick red, all these will be the same after they get the Holy Ghost. Unfortunately their tastes in other things will be the same too.
Does intelligence bring wisdom? Yes because an intelligent person will foster those things that will make him wise. Information makes you wise, experience makes you wise, observation makes you wise and the intelligent individual will continue to embrace those things that will improve his character as well as to avoid repeating history and making the same mistakes twice.
Solomon's intelligence made him wise when he had the motivation to be intelligent. Afterward, he still had the intelligence, but he relied on something else to influence and motivate the source of his wisdom or lack of wisdom after the fact.
In the hearts of all that are wise hearted I have put wisdom, that they may make all that I have commanded thee; Exodus 31:7
And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship; Exodus 35:31
And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: Deut 34:9
And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much, and largeness of heart, even as the sand that is on the sea shore. 30And Solomon’s wisdom excelled the wisdom of all the children of the east country, and all the wisdom of Egypt. 31For he was wiser than all men; I Kings 4:29
And God said to Solomon, Because this was in thine heart, and thou hast not asked riches, wealth, or honour, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life; but hast asked wisdom and knowledge for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king: 12Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee; 2 Chronicles 1:12
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 1 Cor. 1:30
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 1 Cor. 12:8
If what you say is true, then God does not give man wisdom and His word is not true. Wisdom is a gift of the Spirit.
You are saying wisdom follows intellect, I am saying wisdom is a divine impartaion of the Holy Ghost and if we are filled with the Holy Ghost, why don't we have it?
staysharp
12-14-2007, 04:44 PM
but I rather think that impartation occurs over years of learning and growth not so much in a bright flash.
Do you receive all the H.G. when you are filled or does it take years to get the fullnes of what He has to give us. The previous post tells us that wisdom is a divine gift of the Spirit. We should walk in wisdom when we walk with God.
If I'm the most Apostolic poster here ... and Apostolics are wise
then ....
staysharp
12-14-2007, 04:46 PM
If I'm the most Apostolic poster here ... and Apostolics are wise
then ....
Please comment on my previous post. I really would like an intelligent take on why Christians do not have divine wisdom.
On the whole I agree with this. I believe the Holy Ghost gives us the ability to overcome our baser natures and grown into the nature of Christ. God imparts wisdom, this is biblical, but I rather think that impartation occurs over years of learning and growth not so much in a bright flash.
Staysharp ... you have a beef w/ this statement???
staysharp
12-14-2007, 04:56 PM
Staysharp ... you have a beef w/ this statement???
Partly, it infers that God does not impart the gifts with the Holy Spirit. I understand wisdom comes with time, experience, learning, etc. But, biblically, wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit. (previous post)
As you read the previous passages of text, we see God does impart wisdom supernaturally. If men claim to be filled with he Holy Ghost, claim to have all truth, claim to have superior understanding to salvation, why then are they so ignorant?
Jesus was 12 years old and confounded the teachers of the temple; supernatural wisdom.
I really am trying to understand why Apostolics who claim to have the fullness of God, do not have more wisdom.
So many pastors make so many mistakes and hurt the flock, situations that could have been handled with more wisdom, have destroyed people.
Scott Hutchinson
12-14-2007, 05:12 PM
To be wise means to use wisdom ,so listening to the Holy Ghost and walking in the Spirit brings wisdom about spiritual things.
A wise will say things in the right way,one can say rights things in a wrong spirit and do much damage.
staysharp
12-14-2007, 05:15 PM
To be wise means to use wisdom ,so listening to the Holy Ghost and walking in the Spirit brings wisdom about spiritual things.
A wise will say things in the right way,one can say rights things in a wrong spirit and do much damage.
I agree. Is it possible that much of the damage that happens in the church is because men are not led of the H.G.?
Scott Hutchinson
12-14-2007, 05:17 PM
Yes one can have the HG,and not be led by it.
The Holy Ghost is a perfect gentleman, so many folks in church hurt people it makes one wonder what spirit they have ?
John Atkinson
12-14-2007, 05:51 PM
Partly, it infers that God does not impart the gifts with the Holy Spirit. I understand wisdom comes with time, experience, learning, etc. But, biblically, wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit. (previous post)
Correct. Look at it like this: I could give you a CNC milling machine, you would have it, it would be yours. But it would take some time and study for you to operate the gift I gave you. Since I used a tool as analogy, and you used Bezaleel in another post. Bezaleel was already a seriously talented crafter, the wisdom God imparted to him was the ability to do the work according to the fashion God directed. I have seen dozens of models of the ark of the covanent....all built from the description of scripture, and all different. None of these modelers had what God gave Bezaleel. I have put some time and effort over the years in pondering Bezaleel. He is definately one of the heaviest dudes in scripture.
Same with us tho, we need to Holy Ghost to be complete, it takes both Word and Spirit to make a life the Jesus wants built[/quote]
As you read the previous passages of text, we see God does impart wisdom supernaturally. If men claim to be filled with he Holy Ghost, claim to have all truth, claim to have superior understanding to salvation, why then are they so ignorant?
How are they ignorant? Is their ignorance judged by scripture? By suposition? What defines ignorance? According to some folks I am absolutely ignorant because I take Peter's preaching in Acts 2:38 at absolute face value and don't try and interpret anything into it, and figure when he echoed that to Cornelius that he knew what he was doing. Hey, Maybe Peter was ignorant.
Jesus was 12 years old and confounded the teachers of the temple; supernatural wisdom.
Jesus was also the messiah, he was wisdom given life, breath and human form. And besides God can work his will any way, anyhow and any when with whatever he chooses to work that will with.
I really am trying to understand why Apostolics who claim to have the fullness of God, do not have more wisdom.
So many pastors make so many mistakes and hurt the flock, situations that could have been handled with more wisdom, have destroyed people.
Not everyone who gets the Holy Ghost follows it necessarily. Not every preacher in the Apostolic movement is necessarily called of God to be such.
Some folks choose to go to Bible College just like other choose to study engineering. And they go on to be preachers just because grandpa was and daddy was and yadda yadda.
As a result you get a lot of novices doing stuff they shouldn't, and causing havoc where if they had just became an engineer they would have been good at it.
This could go on and on. The system itself where Preachers "try out" for a church like it was a Job interview where everyone but the pastor is the "HR" dept.
PArt of "wisdom" on the part of someone is knowing when you are called to preach and when you just want to.
Seen a few people end up shipwrecked because they didn't follow the wisdom from above because it didn't match their want to. And when the ship gets wrecked while someone is pretending to be captain, there are alway the passengers who get drowned or crushed in the process.
Believe me. Wisdom is something the Apostolic movement needs a whole lot more. God's giving it, but like the Holy Ghost, we have to recieve it.
John Atkinson
12-14-2007, 06:12 PM
Addendum to Post # 51
By the same token, the saints who have recieved the Holy Ghost need to be able to recieve the fact that just because a preacher dropped the football that doesn't mean God did. Just because the man behind the pulpit threw himself off a cliff, doesn't mean the saints have to go find the opposite clif and throw themselves off. God is still powerful, apostolic doctrine is still true. Men may fail. God does not.
The tragedy is that all four of the last statements I made have become cliches.
I cannot find the wisdom to remedy that....yet.
staysharp
12-14-2007, 08:45 PM
How are they ignorant? Is their ignorance judged by scripture? By suposition? What defines ignorance?
Ignorance is simply defined as being uneducated in a particular area of study. I am not inferring that you or any one else is ignorant because you believe in a literal interpretation of particular texts. However, Paul did not want his churches to remain ignorant, so he wrote detailed instructions.
Many refuse to acknowledge biblical and historical truths even when faced with overwhelming evidence.
The early disciples were called ignorant and unlearned, yet the testimony they held... "they had been with Jesus." This testimony overcame their ignorance.
Jesus was also the messiah, he was wisdom given life, breath and human form. And besides God can work his will any way, anyhow and any when with whatever he chooses to work that will with.
My point here is that Jesus was supernaturally empowered with wisdom as were many others throughout the scriptures. God does give supernatural wisdom. Instantaneous wisdom for a specific situation. This is the word of wisdom. (gift of the Spirit)
Jesus told the disciples as he sent them out to preach, not to even take a script, the H.G. would speak through them. Again, divine wisdom. The early Apostles had been given it also.
Not everyone who gets the Holy Ghost follows it necessarily. Not every preacher in the Apostolic movement is necessarily called of God to be such.
I agree wholeheartedly.
As a result you get a lot of novices doing stuff they shouldn't, and causing havoc where if they had just became an engineer they would have been good at it.
This could go on and on. The system itself where Preachers "try out" for a church like it was a Job interview where everyone but the pastor is the "HR" dept.
PArt of "wisdom" on the part of someone is knowing when you are called to preach and when you just want to.
I Agree, however I am dumbfounded as to over 50 years of UPC influence, why aren't the bible schools better equipped to teach proper etiquette and wisdom in real life situations. How to handle crisis, character building, etc.
Seen a few people end up shipwrecked because they didn't follow the wisdom from above because it didn't match their want to. And when the ship gets wrecked while someone is pretending to be captain, there are alway the passengers who get drowned or crushed in the process.
Believe me. Wisdom is something the Apostolic movement needs a whole lot more. God's giving it, but like the Holy Ghost, we have to recieve it.
A surrendered heart, mind and emotion will go a long way in remedying this. I do believe God does impart supernatural knowledge and wisdom for specific situations, yet many refuse to submit to His nature.
I just know the fields are littered with dead, mutilated and wounded souls who will never reenter the doors of the church because of how situations were handled.
Jekyll
12-15-2007, 12:56 AM
We are to put on the mind of Christ. We cannot do this without the Holy Ghost. Most of us don't do this even when we receive the Holy Ghost.
Wise? hmmm
I've got to think about this for awhile
Coonskinner
12-15-2007, 06:31 AM
Partly, it infers that God does not impart the gifts with the Holy Spirit. I understand wisdom comes with time, experience, learning, etc. But, biblically, wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit. (previous post)
As you read the previous passages of text, we see God does impart wisdom supernaturally. If men claim to be filled with he Holy Ghost, claim to have all truth, claim to have superior understanding to salvation, why then are they so ignorant?
Jesus was 12 years old and confounded the teachers of the temple; supernatural wisdom.
I really am trying to understand why Apostolics who claim to have the fullness of God, do not have more wisdom.
So many pastors make so many mistakes and hurt the flock, situations that could have been handled with more wisdom, have destroyed people.
I didn't have to read through the whole thread to figure out where this was going; I knew when I saw the title.
But it makes responding more convenient when it finally gets spelled out in plain language.
What we have here, gentle reader, is yet another blanket accusation and broadbrush criticism of the Church, pastors, and Apostolic people in general. How quaint and how original. :)
If men claim to be filled with he Holy Ghost, claim to have all truth, claim to have superior understanding to salvation, why then are they so ignorant?
Anybody can claim anything. In this profound, probing and insightful question, you have postured yourself as the guy qualified to judge these imaginary, rhetorical "ignorant" men. Who are they? How do we know they are ignorant? What makes your testimony trustworthy?
Of course, there aren't any answers here. Just another salvo from the corkgun brigade, calibrated to sow a little more disdain for God's people.
I really am trying to understand why Apostolics who claim to have the fullness of God, do not have more wisdom.
So many pastors make so many mistakes and hurt the flock, situations that could have been handled with more wisdom, have destroyed people
The New Birth is the entrance to the Kingdom. It is the starter's gun, not the finish line. It is a birth, not a diploma. It is the beginning of spiritual life, not a miraculous impartation of wisdom and spiritual maturity. Those things take time and willingness to learn and grow.
Certainly there are pastors who make terrible mistakes and hurt people. There are men filling pulpits who are probably no more called to preach than Hillary Clinton.
Human nature is what it is. Flesh is what it is.
But you are barking up the wrong tree when you try to denigrate the Truth of the Apostles doctrine by pointing out that there are people who know it who aren't everything they ought to be. You are bringing your accusation from a false premise.
If salvation instantly conferred perfection, there would be no need for the Epistles. Thus your little attempt to take a shot at Apostolics and their doctrine by pointing out a lack of wisdom in some of them is all smoke.
Nice try, though, and hey...be encouraged. :)
There are some folks who are always looking for another reason to justify their backsliding who will nod their heads, buy into your little deal here, and think you are one more smart cookie, sticking it to "the man" once again.:)
revrandy
12-15-2007, 06:46 AM
The Bible is a sure enough example of grace and mercy seeing how many of the folks in it made mistakes...had problems...and faced trials..... Maybe we could take a lesson from it and offer to others the same Grace & Mercy that is extended to us....imo....
staysharp
12-15-2007, 06:53 AM
The Bible is a sure enough example of grace and mercy seeing how many of the folks in it made mistakes...had problems...and faced trials..... Maybe we could take a lesson from it and offer to others the same Grace & Mercy that is extended to us....imo....
Yes, however nobody want to take responsibility. This is problematic. How are we as a movement ever going to gain wisdom when we won't acknowledge we need it?
Coonskinner
12-15-2007, 07:14 AM
Yes, however nobody want to take responsibility. This is problematic. How are we as a movement ever going to gain wisdom when we won't acknowledge we need it?
"Movements" are neither wise nor unwise; that is the province of individuals.
James said, "If any man lack wisdom, let him ask of God..."
Many years ago, an elder told me that I should pray every day for wisdom, understanding, and knowledge. I took his advice, and am still praying that prayer and ackowledging daily that need.
You can't charge a movement for the lack of wisdom displayed by individuals.
God doesn't judge movements;He judges men.
Movements don't pray and study;en pray and study.
Movements can't and don't acknowledge anything; men can and should.
Put the broadbrush down.
staysharp
12-15-2007, 07:20 AM
I didn't have to read through the whole thread to figure out where this was going; I knew when I saw the title.
Here we go again...more assumptions! Jumping the gun. You UC's are famous for this.
What we have here, gentle reader, is yet another blanket accusation and broadbrush criticism of the Church, pastors, and Apostolic people in general. How quaint and how original.
No what we have here is an ignorant response that seeks to place blame and refuses to take responsibility. Coon, the foundation for generational Apostolicdom is our educational institutions. Why shouldn't we question what is being produced?[/QUOTE[
Anybody can claim anything. In this profound, probing and insightful question, you have postured yourself as the guy qualified to judge these imaginary, rhetorical "ignorant" men. Who are they? How do we know they are ignorant? What makes your testimony trustworthy?
A typical response from an insecure UC. Anytime anyone asks sincere honest questions, you guys shift the blame, act like it isn't happening, ignore it and attack the one asking the questions. Why can't you just admit you have areas of ignorance too? I do, you do, we all do. Ignorance is simply uneducated in a particular area of study.
i am a pastor, preacher, teacher, etc. When it comes to nuclear fusion, I am ignorant. However, i am not a nuclear scientist, I am a pastor and as such, I should not be ignorant in any scope of study relating to my field. I should learn, grow, study to show myself approved, until I die and write what I have learned for the future generations.[/QUOTE]
Of course, there aren't any answers here. Just another salvo from the corkgun brigade, calibrated to sow a little more disdain for God's people.
Again, shift the blame, get defensive and refuse to answer honestly.
The New Birth is the entrance to the Kingdom. It is the starter's gun, not the finish line. It is a birth, not a diploma. It is the beginning of spiritual life, not a miraculous impartation of wisdom and spiritual maturity. Those things take time and willingness to learn and grow.
Well, I agree in part, however are you denying the supernatural impartation of the gifts of the Spirit? Is the word of wisdom a gift of the H.G. Are you saying it takes years for this gift to develop?
Certainly there are pastors who make terrible mistakes and hurt people. There are men filling pulpits who are probably no more called to preach than Hillary Clinton.
Human nature is what it is. Flesh is what it is.
HALLELUJAH!!!
But you are barking up the wrong tree when you try to denigrate the Truth of the Apostles doctrine by pointing out that there are people who know it who aren't everything they ought to be. You are bringing your accusation from a false premise.
If salvation instantly conferred perfection, there would be no need for the Epistles. Thus your little attempt to take a shot at Apostolics and their doctrine by pointing out a lack of wisdom in some of them is all smoke.
No one is saying salvation instantly brings perfection. I am asking a legitimate question that deserves a legitimate response from you. I am simply stating that Apostolics claim to have superior revelations. If that is true, then why don't we have greater wisdom.
Most UC's believe everyone else who doesn't follow Acts 2:38 is hell bound. If that is the case, then why don't you have greater wisdom to help everyone else get out of hell?
Why are these men arguing over TV and its merit as a vehicle to carry the gospel? They should be parading their wisdom to the lost and preaching on it!
You cannot get any more ignorant than to argue TV vs. Internet the way they have defended their position. TV for entertainment, Internet for education? C'mon, this supercedes ignorance.
And then get mad and leave because they didn't get their way? Childish, ignorant behavior.
There are some folks who are always looking for another reason to justify their backsliding who will nod their heads, buy into your little deal here, and think you are one more smart cookie, sticking it to "the man" once again.:)
Now, I know why I started this thread, you are the perfect example, the poster child of its content.
staysharp
12-15-2007, 07:24 AM
"Movements" are neither wise nor unwise; that is the province of individuals.
James said, "If any man lack wisdom, let him ask of God..."
Many years ago, an elder told me that I should pray every day for wisdom, understanding, and knowledge. I took his advice, and am still praying that prayer and ackowledging daily that need.
You can't charge a movement for the lack of wisdom displayed by individuals.
God doesn't judge movements;He judges men.
Movements don't pray and study;en pray and study.
Movements can't and don't acknowledge anything; men can and should.
Put the broadbrush down.
I agree its a little broad; so you are saying as an organization we shouldn't demand a higher standard for our graduates? Headquarters shouldn't train, develop and teach the pastors?
The Southern Baptist movement has strict guidelines. Their schools are accountable. Churning out professional pastors. Their not perfect, but look at what they have accomplished?
Coonskinner
12-15-2007, 07:31 AM
If you think our educational institutions are "the foundation for generational Apostolicdom," then we are nowhere near the same page.
The local church is the foundation. God ordained that, not Bible Schools.
And if the benchmark for "wisdom" is agreeing with your position on tv advertising, etc. then your definition is pretty simplistic.
Furthermore, the supernatural gift you are referring to is called "the word of wisdom," which is not the same as wisdom in the context of James' writings regarding the wisdom from above vs. that which is earthly, sensual, and devilish. And yes, that takes some time to develop.
The word of wisdom is situation specific, as I understand it. Wisdom, generally speaking, as a characteristic and a character trait is something that comes through time, teaching, observation, and experience.
Coonskinner
12-15-2007, 07:37 AM
I agree its a little broad; so you are saying as an organization we shouldn't demand a higher standard for our graduates? Headquarters shouldn't train, develop and teach the pastors?
The Southern Baptist movement has strict guidelines. Their schools are accountable. Churning out professional pastors. Their not perfect, but look at what they have accomplished?
You are comparing apples and pinto beans. We should indeed have better Bible Schools, and I am sure not against them. I have a close friend whom I have tremendous respect for as a man of God who is a dean at what I consider our best Bible School.
But the Baptists turn out professonal Baptist pastors. Professionalism is a good thing, but that in itself won't turn out an Apostolic preacher. There is a little more to it than what you can learn in a classroom.
You can't compare us to them, as we are in completely different realms. We are in the Kingdom of God; they aren't.
They can do what they do without God being anywhere in the picture; we can't.
Are there things we can learn from them? Sure. Jesus said the children of the world are wiser in some areas than the children of light.
But trying to replicate their stuff would be akin to david thinking he could out-cart the Philistines when it came to Ark moving.
Coonskinner
12-15-2007, 07:40 AM
Here we go again...more assumptions! Jumping the gun. You UC's are famous for this.
No what we have here is an ignorant response that seeks to place blame and refuses to take responsibility. Coon, the foundation for generational Apostolicdom is our educational institutions. Why shouldn't we question what is being produced?[/QUOTE[
A typical response from an insecure UC. Anytime anyone asks sincere honest questions, you guys shift the blame, act like it isn't happening, ignore it and attack the one asking the questions. Why can't you just admit you have areas of ignorance too? I do, you do, we all do. Ignorance is simply uneducated in a particular area of study.
i am a pastor, preacher, teacher, etc. When it comes to nuclear fusion, I am ignorant. However, i am not a nuclear scientist, I am a pastor and as such, I should not be ignorant in any scope of study relating to my field. I should learn, grow, study to show myself approved, until I die and write what I have learned for the future generations.
Again, shift the blame, get defensive and refuse to answer honestly.
Well, I agree in part, however are you denying the supernatural impartation of the gifts of the Spirit? Is the word of wisdom a gift of the H.G. Are you saying it takes years for this gift to develop?
HALLELUJAH!!!
No one is saying salvation instantly brings perfection. I am asking a legitimate question that deserves a legitimate response from you. I am simply stating that Apostolics claim to have superior revelations. If that is true, then why don't we have greater wisdom.
Most UC's believe everyone else who doesn't follow Acts 2:38 is hell bound. If that is the case, then why don't you have greater wisdom to help everyone else get out of hell?
Why are these men arguing over TV and its merit as a vehicle to carry the gospel? They should be parading their wisdom to the lost and preaching on it!
You cannot get any more ignorant than to argue TV vs. Internet the way they have defended their position. TV for entertainment, Internet for education? C'mon, this supercedes ignorance.
And then get mad and leave because they didn't get their way? Childish, ignorant behavior.
Now, I know why I started this thread, you are the perfect example, the poster child of its content.
[/QUOTE]A couple of other points--I am not what most would consider an Ultra Con.
Most UC's believe everyone else who doesn't follow Acts 2:38 is hell bound.
That is Apostolic doctrine, not an ultra-con distinctive. There is no other entrance into the Kingdom than the New Birth.
Falla39
12-15-2007, 07:43 AM
Could it be said that the saving of a soul is the miracle of the moment,
But the making of a mature saint is the work of a lifetime??
staysharp
12-15-2007, 07:44 AM
If you think our educational institutions are "the foundation for generational Apostolicdom," then we are nowhere near the same page.
The local church is the foundation. God ordained that, not Bible Schools.
Many local churches have schools and should. A bible school can be a local church. Any institution that teaches is a school. Again, shift the blame.
And if the benchmark for "wisdom" is agreeing with your position on tv advertising, etc. then your definition is pretty simplistic.
As it should be Coon, if men can't find common ground on such a simplistic platform, how are we going to reach a world? This to me shows the height of ignorance in men who are unwilling to consider others may be right.
Furthermore, the supernatural gift you are referring to is called "the word of wisdom," which is not the same as wisdom in the context of James' writings regarding the wisdom from above vs. that which is earthly, sensual, and devilish. And yes, that takes some time to develop.
Either wisdom comes from God or it doesn't I agree earthly or sensual understanding is developmental, however I am asking about H.G. filled men of God and why the supernatural gift of wisdom does not seem to be in operation.
The word of wisdom is situation specific, as I understand it.
I have no problem with that statement, but you and I should agree there has been many 'situations' it should of been applied.
If we are so wise, then why are we so dumb? I'm not throwing stones Coon, I'm including myself. Shouldn't there be more wisdom from above?
staysharp
12-15-2007, 07:46 AM
You are comparing apples and pinto beans. We should indeed have better Bible Schools, and I am sure not against them. I have a close friend whom I have tremendous respect for as a man of God who is a dean at what I consider our best Bible School.
But the Baptists turn out professonal Baptist pastors. Professionalism is a good thing, but that in itself won't turn out an Apostolic preacher. There is a little more to it than what you can learn in a classroom.
You can't compare us to them, as we are in completely different realms. We are in the Kingdom of God; they aren't.
They can do what they do without God being anywhere in the picture; we can't.
Are there things we can learn from them? Sure. Jesus said the children of the world are wiser in some areas than the children of light.
But trying to replicate their stuff would be akin to david thinking he could out-cart the Philistines when it came to Ark moving.
I can't believe I just read this.
staysharp
12-15-2007, 07:48 AM
Could it be said that the saving of a soul is the miracle of the moment,
But the making of a mature saint is the work of a lifetime??
Yes, however shouldn't the H.G. be leading and guiding us? Is it that we aren't following? Isn't the church the incubator for such growth?
philjones
12-15-2007, 07:51 AM
I can't believe I just read this.
What part don't you agree with? You are still Apostolic aren't you? Perhaps you are more of universalist and believe doctrine does not matter?
I know I know... Pharisaical Self Righteous judges who don't believe that everyone who utters the name of Jesus are saved. Just overlook us in our ignorance oh wise one.
Surely, as a man who has the audacity to start a thread of this nature, you must be submitted to the Holy Ghost and ALL KNOWING and ALL WISE!
Please continue with your propositions and continue to wow us with the breadth and depth of your astounding wisdom!
I bow before you!
Again, you need to get your UCdar fixed. You are picking up all kinds of false signals with that faulty device you are using called by some a brain!:D
John Atkinson
12-15-2007, 07:51 AM
Could it be said that the saving of a soul is the miracle of the moment,
But the making of a mature saint is the work of a lifetime??I don't consider myself to be all that wise. I do consider Sis Falla to be very much so. I can witness from two forums, when she types something, it is way worth reading and heeding.
Coonskinner
12-15-2007, 07:54 AM
Many local churches have schools and should. A bible school can be a local church. Any institution that teaches is a school. Again, shift the blame.
As it should be Coon, if men can't find common ground on such a simplistic platform, how are we going to reach a world? This to me shows the height of ignorance in men who are unwilling to consider others may be right.
Either wisdom comes from God or it doesn't I agree earthly or sensual understanding is developmental, however I am asking about H.G. filled men of God and why the supernatural gift of wisdom does not seem to be in operation.
I have no problem with that statement, but you and I should agree there has been many 'situations' it should of been applied.
If we are so wise, then why are we so dumb? I'm not throwing stones Coon, I'm including myself. Shouldn't there be more wisdom from above?
How is pointing out that God ordained local churches and not organization institutions of education shifting the blame?
If men aren't being developed properly, the blame is on the ministry, specifically pastors, of which I am one. Bible schools are in my opinion a stopgap measure that is regrettably filling a need because pastors aren't mentoring as they should. They are a bandaid but not the ideal solution.
You can have ten thousand instructors, but the real need is fathers.
Either wisdom comes from God or it doesn't I agree earthly or sensual understanding is developmental, however I am asking about H.G. filled men of God and why the supernatural gift of wisdom does not seem to be in operation.
You keep failing to acknowledge the dichotomy between the gift of the word of wisdom, and the wisdom from above that James talks about.
Every believer should have wisdom--from God, His Word, and His imparted nature, and from experience.
This is not the same thing as the supernatral gift Paul references in I Corinthians 12.
And again, your judgment that anyone who is against tv ministry is dumb and ignorant is incredibly arrogant and simplistic. That in itself is no litmus test.
There are men with a lot of wisdom, good minds and good hearts on both sides of that issue.
Coonskinner
12-15-2007, 07:55 AM
I don't consider myself to be all that wise. I do consider Sis Falla to be very much so.
I feel the same way about myself and our dear elder sister.
staysharp
12-15-2007, 07:56 AM
What part don't you agree with? You are still Apostolic aren't you? Perhaps you are more of universalist and believe doctrine does not matter?
I know I know... Pharisaical Self Righteous judges who don't believe that everyone who utters the name of Jesus are saved. Just overlook us in our ignorance oh wise one.
Surely, as a man who has the audacity to start a thread of this nature, you must be submitted to the Holy Ghost and ALL KNOWING and ALL WISE!
Please continue with your propositions and continue to wow us with the breadth and depth of your astounding wisdom!
I bow before you!
Again, you need to get your UCdar fixed. You are picking up all kinds of false signals with that faulty device you are using called by some a brain!:D
I have already stated I need more wisdom. I am not all wise. As a matter of fact, I was simply looking for a reasonable explanation as to why wisdom is not supernatural among us.
We seek for healing, we seek for prophecy, we seek for miracles, why don't we seek for wisdom?
Honestly, Dr. Phil, you've been to hell and back as we all have, give me an honest answer. Why don't we seek for wisdom from above as a sign of God's approval?
philjones
12-15-2007, 07:57 AM
How is pointing out that God ordained local churches and not organization institutions of education shifting the blame?
If men aren't being developed properly, the blame is on the ministry, specifically pastors, of which I am one. Bible schools are in my opinion a stopgap measure that is regrettably filling a need because pastors aren't mentoring as they should. They are a bandaid but not the ideal solution.
You can have ten thousand instructors, but the real need is fathers.
You keep failing to acknowledge the dichotomy between the gift of the word of wisdom, and the wisdom from above that James talks about.
Every believer should have wisdom--from God, His Word, and His imparted nature, and from experience.
This is not the same thing as the supernatral gift Paul references in I Corinthians 12.
And again, your judgment that anyone who is against tv ministry is dumb and ignorant is incredibly arrogant and simplistic. That in itself is no litmus test.
There are men with a lot of wisdom, good minds and good hearts on both sides of that issue.
Now, CS, you know you cannot say that or you are being deceptive... after all you are an UCon and cannot believe such silliness! :D
Sorry I missed your call... would have loved to visit!
Coonskinner
12-15-2007, 07:59 AM
I can't believe I just read this.
Sharpy, the belief that one must obey Acts 2:38 to enter the Kingdom is not a weird, fringe doctrine held by only a few rabid cons; that is mainstream Apostolic doctrine and this is an Apostolic forum. There are some PCI types that have a slightly different view, but you have no reason to act surprised on this forum that someone would not consider Southern Baptists to be saved and in the Kingdom.
philjones
12-15-2007, 08:00 AM
I have already stated I need more wisdom. I am not all wise. As a matter of fact, I was simply looking for a reasonable explanation as to why wisdom is not supernatural among us.
We seek for healing, we seek for prophecy, we seek for miracles, why don't we seek for wisdom?
Honestly, Dr. Phil, you've been to hell and back as we all have, give me an honest answer. Why don't we seek for wisdom from above as a sign of God's approval?
Staysharp,
I guess I find the question to be difficult to zero in on because that is a daily prayer that I pray and a daily prayer most men I know pray. Certainly we are daily facing a changing world and persistent yet morphing attacks from the deceiver so Godly Wisdom is essential. I cannot imagine there are any true men of God who do not seek to be empowered through the leading and guiding of the Holy Ghost in every deed, decision and doctrine that they pursue.
Is your experience contrary to mine?
Coonskinner
12-15-2007, 08:00 AM
I have already stated I need more wisdom. I am not all wise. As a matter of fact, I was simply looking for a reasonable explanation as to why wisdom is not supernatural among us.
We seek for healing, we seek for prophecy, we seek for miracles, why don't we seek for wisdom?
Honestly, Dr. Phil, you've been to hell and back as we all have, give me an honest answer. Why don't we seek for wisdom from above as a sign of God's approval?
Speak for yourself.
I do, have for years, and know many men who do also.
Maybe you need to get away from some of your current unwise fellowship and let me hook you up with some good men who can help you in the wisdom department.
Coonskinner
12-15-2007, 08:02 AM
Staysharp,
I guess I find the question to be difficult to zero in on because that is a daily prayer that I pray and a daily prayer most men I know pray. Certainly we are daily facing a changing world and persistent yet morphing attacks from the deceiver so Godly Wisdom is essential. I cannot imagine there are any true men of God who do not seek to be empowered through the leading and guiding of the Holy Ghost in every deed, decision and doctrine that they pursue.
Is your experience contrary to mine?
Brother, I think some men look through their own keyhole, and get the idea that they are viewing a panaramic vista of the Kingdom.
philjones
12-15-2007, 08:03 AM
Brother, I think some men look through their own keyhole, and get the idea that they are viewing a panaramic vista of the Kingdom.
You may be on to something!
freeatlast
12-15-2007, 08:04 AM
Staysharp,
I guess I find the question to be difficult to zero in on because that is a daily prayer that I pray and a daily prayer most men I know pray. Certainly we are daily facing a changing world and persistent yet morphing attacks from the deceiver so Godly Wisdom is essential. I cannot imagine there are any true men of God who do not seek to be empowered through the leading and guiding of the Holy Ghost in every deed, decision and doctrine that they pursue.
Is your experience contrary to mine?
Think you nailed it there Br Phil
37 years that I have been in christ my prayer has been for God's word to be revealed to me.
Prayer for wisdom, study for wisdom has been a daily pursuit.
Stay Sharp's question is faulty. Can not be answered.
staysharp
12-15-2007, 08:06 AM
Sharpy, the belief that one must obey Acts 2:38 to enter the Kingdom is not a weird, fringe doctrine held by only a few rabid cons; that is mainstream Apostolic doctrine and this is an Apostolic forum. There are some PCI types that have a slightly different view, but you have no reason to act surprised on this forum that someone would not consider Southern Baptists to be saved and in the Kingdom.
Coon, your post was filled with elitism. This is the problem. You guys don't even realize it. Why couldn't you say...yes, we have a lot to learn from the baptists. They have accomplished great things. Orphanages, schools, missionaries, doctors, etc.
Why attack them as not being in the kingdom? There is nothing wrong with being a professional pastor. It simply states you have taken your calling and profession seriously.
Again, skirt the issue, deny anybody else could be right.
Oh well, I guess I got my answer. We have no wisdom from above, because we do not seek it. It's just that simple.
John Atkinson
12-15-2007, 08:06 AM
You are on target Bro. CS
BTW, if you get around to it. I have always wanted a Daniel Boone hat.
Seriousley though, you are dead on.
staysharp
12-15-2007, 08:12 AM
Staysharp,
I guess I find the question to be difficult to zero in on because that is a daily prayer that I pray and a daily prayer most men I know pray. Certainly we are daily facing a changing world and persistent yet morphing attacks from the deceiver so Godly Wisdom is essential. I cannot imagine there are any true men of God who do not seek to be empowered through the leading and guiding of the Holy Ghost in every deed, decision and doctrine that they pursue.
Is your experience contrary to mine?
Thanks for an honest answer. Yes, my experiences have taken me to the altar of wisdom many times seeking God for direction.
My question is sincere. Do you believe God imparts supernatural wisdom today? Is not the gift of wisdom a new testament impartation along with faith, prophecy, healing, etc.?
staysharp
12-15-2007, 08:15 AM
You are on target Bro. CS
BTW, if you get around to it. I have always wanted a Daniel Boone hat.
Seriousley though, you are dead on.
Dead on what? Shifting blame? Criticizing the baptists? No one has answered my original question.
Shouldn't the gift of wisdom be a part of the new covenant experience? Shouldn't it be demonstrated as a gift from above???
Coonskinner
12-15-2007, 08:16 AM
Coon, your post was filled with elitism. This is the problem. You guys don't even realize it. Why couldn't you say...yes, we have a lot to learn from the baptists. They have accomplished great things. Orphanages, schools, missionaries, doctors, etc.
Why attack them as not being in the kingdom? There is nothing wrong with being a professional pastor. It simply states you have taken your calling and profession seriously.
Again, skirt the issue, deny anybody else could be right.
Oh well, I guess I got my answer. We have no wisdom from above, because we do not seek it. It's just that simple.
You need to go back and read again.
Stating that people who have never been born again are not in the Kingdomisn't an attack; it is an acknowledgement of a Scriptural truth that happens to be germane to the discussion.
Good works in the social services department such as orphanages, hospitals, and so on is nice. But we are called to win souls primarily, not build hospitals to treat sick bodies, as admirable as that is.
The Social Gospel takes hold when people have no heavenly vision.
Their hospitals, orphanages, and doctors are all good things, but they aren't getting anybody in the Kingdom.
I admire all that, but I am not called to build hospitals; I am called to preach the only saving message to the lost.
The Baptists do good things as far as this present world is concerned, but they are dead in trespasses and sins, as are their converts.
So we are doing two different things.
Coonskinner
12-15-2007, 08:19 AM
Dead on what? Shifting blame? Criticizing the baptists? No one has answered my original question.
Shouldn't the gift of wisdom be a part of the new covenant experience? Shouldn't it be demonstrated as a gift from above???
It is at work today.
But you keep confusing a spiritual gift as per I Corinthians 12 with the kind of wisdom that develops thrugh time, study, and walking with God.
John Atkinson
12-15-2007, 08:23 AM
Dead on what? Shifting blame? Criticizing the baptists? No one has answered my original question.
Shouldn't the gift of wisdom be a part of the new covenant experience? Shouldn't it be demonstrated as a gift from above???
It is. Sorry Bro, but I just don't get where you are missing it. It is manifested every day right in front of us. In my pastor, In myself when I just want to whack some guy upside the head but speak a kind word instead, in Sis Falla's posts, in Pastor Skinner of Coon's words.
Wisdom is all around us. And God DOES impart it to us supernaturally...
It just don't come with fireworks.
freeatlast
12-15-2007, 08:25 AM
Coon, your post was filled with elitism. This is the problem. You guys don't even realize it. Why couldn't you say...yes, we have a lot to learn from the baptists. They have accomplished great things. Orphanages, schools, missionaries, doctors, etc.
Why attack them as not being in the kingdom? There is nothing wrong with being a professional pastor. It simply states you have taken your calling and profession seriously.
Again, skirt the issue, deny anybody else could be right.
Oh well, I guess I got my answer. We have no wisdom from above, because we do not seek it. It's just that simple.
Sir, I believe you missed about three answers..You are making an acusation that is false, That we have NO wisdom.
Three of us just declared we seek for it daily, four if we include you.
The gift of wisdom is in operation in our churches.
Some may choose to operate the "gift" of ignorance on occasion but that does not negate the fact that God is at work among Apostolics.
Coonskinner
12-15-2007, 08:28 AM
Sir, I believe you missed about three answers..You are making an acusation that is false, That we have NO wisdom.
Three of us just declared we seek for it daily, four if we include you.
The gift of wisdom is in operation in our churches.
Some may choose to operate the "gift" of ignorance on occasion but that does not negate the fact that God is at work among Apostolics.
Since I so rarely have the opportunity to do it, wisdom dictates that I should say a big "AMEN" to your post.
;)
Ronzo
12-15-2007, 08:30 AM
Just when I was beginning to like you mighty mouse. It's only dumb to those who have no wisdom.
Just when I was beginning to like you breadslicer...
Gimme a break...
staysharp
12-15-2007, 08:31 AM
Good works in the social services department such as orphanages, hospitals, and so on is nice. But we are called to win souls primarily, not build hospitals to treat sick bodies, as admirable as that is.
Typical. Maybe this will help.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
The Social Gospel takes hold when people have no heavenly vision.
Luke 10:8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
No, social assistance is very much a part of the Gospel. This is why we as Apostolics don't have hospitals, professional schools, doctors, orphanages, because nobody cares about what Jesus cared about. Unbelievable.
I admire all that, but I am not called to build hospitals; I am called to preach the only saving message to the lost.
MAYBE YOU NEED TO READ THE GOOD SAMARITAN, SO HERE IT IS: Luke 10
27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
29But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
30And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
I know its not Acts 2;38 but it happens to be the words of our Lord.
freeatlast
12-15-2007, 08:32 AM
Since I so rarely have the opportunity to do it, wisdom dictates that I should say a big "AMEN" to your post.
;)
I was just thinking the same thing...that Phil and Coonskiner must be shocked to see me posting on "their" side of the fence.
:bells Merry Christmas to ya Lady and Mrs CS...hope the ice storm didn't get ya to bad down there in KS.
Coonskinner
12-15-2007, 08:37 AM
I was just thinking the same thing...that Phil and Coonskiner must be shocked to see me posting on "their" side of the fence.
:bells Merry Christmas to ya Lady and Mrs CS...hope the ice storm didn't get ya to bad down there in KS.
The end time must surely be upon us. :)
Merry Christmas to you too, friend, and unfortunately, the storm wiped us out...our house has been without power for almost a week, and may be for another two weeks.
Rural water is also out as of yesterday.
We are staying in town where there is electricity.
staysharp
12-15-2007, 08:38 AM
Sir, I believe you missed about three answers..You are making an acusation that is false, That we have NO wisdom.
Three of us just declared we seek for it daily, four if we include you.
The gift of wisdom is in operation in our churches.
Some may choose to operate the "gift" of ignorance on occasion but that does not negate the fact that God is at work among Apostolics.
Do you actually think post 84 is a wise answer? I am not accusing any one of being specifically ignorant. Ignorant is not bad, it just attributes to the need for more education.
Defensiveness refuses to accept responsibility, therefore negating the need to change.
You answered, you seek for it daily, and I am asking you, do you feel it empower you as a gift from above. As a part of H.G. as in faith, healing, miracles, etc. Does wisdom come to you for a specific situation from God?
staysharp
12-15-2007, 08:40 AM
The end time must surely be upon us. :)
Merry Christmas to you too, friend, and unfortunately, the storm wiped us out...our house has been without power for almost a week, and may be for another two weeks.
Rural water is also out as of yesterday.
We are staying in town where there is electricity.
Wisdom would have made sure you had a generator, propane. Next time be prepared, Sorry for your dilemma though. Been there done that. We had an ice storm that destroyed everything too for about 2 weeks.
Coonskinner
12-15-2007, 08:40 AM
Typical. Maybe this will help.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Luke 10:8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
No, social assistance is very much a part of the Gospel. This is why we as Apostolics don't have hospitals, professional schools, doctors, orphanages, because nobody cares about what Jesus cared about. Unbelievable.
MAYBE YOU NEED TO READ THE GOOD SAMARITAN, SO HERE IT IS: Luke 10
27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
29But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
30And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
I know its not Acts 2;38 but it happens to be the words of our Lord.
We give to and help the poor.
So did the Apostles.
Did they build hospitals?
I did not say these were not good things; I said they were not as high a priority as the salvation of souls.
Coonskinner
12-15-2007, 08:42 AM
Sharpy, I have a question for you:
Do you believe it takes Acts 2:38 to be saved?
Please don't squirm around, just tell me yea or nay.
The end time must surely be upon us. :)
Merry Christmas to you too, friend, and unfortunately, the storm wiped us out...our house has been without power for almost a week, and may be for another two weeks.
Rural water is also out as of yesterday.
We are staying in town where there is electricity.
Oh that's Bad
you people that live where you have all these ice storms every year - I don't understand any of it.Last year it was a couple of months before they got power back to most residence. we've had a cold front hovering over the west coast all week. when this thing moves out your way look out. It's been COLD here(no ice though). Our citrus crops are in danger of being ruined again(2yrs in a row).
freeatlast
12-15-2007, 08:47 AM
Do you actually think post 84 is a wise answer? I am not accusing any one of being specifically ignorant. Ignorant is not bad, it just attributes to the need for more education.
Defensiveness refuses to accept responsibility, therefore negating the need to change.
You answered, you seek for it daily, and I am asking you, do you feel it empower you as a gift from above. As a part of H.G. as in faith, healing, miracles, etc. Does wisdom come to you for a specific situation from God?
You first...do iyou feel it empower you as a supernatural gift. How do you personally "operate" in the gift of wisdom.
The post #84 is not how I would have responded to you. I don't agree with some of it's content. That in and of itself has nothing to do with me or CS's gifting of wisdom.
Me and the Coon may have some differences in our learning..in our knowledge that we have gained thru our many years of searching God's word.
He and I and even you if given the same scripture to discern it's meanning may come to different conclusions.....tell me Staysharp, what that has to do with the GIFT of wisdom?
Parson
12-15-2007, 08:47 AM
Oh that's Bad
you people that live where you have all these ice storms every year - I don't understand any of it.Last year it was a couple of months before they got power back to most residence. we've had a cold front hovering over the west coast all week. when this thing moves out your way look out. It's been COLD here(no ice though). Our citrus crops are in danger of being ruined again(2yrs in a row).
Hmmmm. Must be that global WARMING thing Gore was talking about.
Hope things get better weather wise for the both of you.
Parson
staysharp
12-15-2007, 08:48 AM
Sharpy, I have a question for you:
Do you believe it takes Acts 2:38 to be saved?
Please don't squirm around, just tell me yea or nay.
I believe all scriptures together form our salvational doctrines, not just one specifically. Without getting into a doctrinal war of words, suffice it to say, I baptize in Jesus name and preach the H.G. as a separate gift from God.
I do not tell anyone who has faith in Christ and loves him, they are not saved. I am not their judge and have not been given the right to dictate any one's personal salvation. I did not die for them, and have not right scripturally to question anothers faith.
Thanks, for your input, sorry for your dilemma. Time to get up and be productive. God bless and have a great weekend.
freeatlast
12-15-2007, 08:48 AM
Wisdom would have made sure you had a generator, propane. Next time be prepared, Sorry for your dilemma though. Been there done that. We had an ice storm that destroyed everything too for about 2 weeks.
The gift of wisdom or just plain common sense wisdom ?
Coonskinner
12-15-2007, 08:49 AM
Wisdom would have made sure you had a generator, propane. Next time be prepared, Sorry for your dilemma though. Been there done that. We had an ice storm that destroyed everything too for about 2 weeks.
I've got propane and a generator.
But I also have a dear lady in our church, a widow with a large house who has been very close to our family, who invited us to camp out with her until our power comes back on.
Wisdom dictated that her offer was a better solution.
Coonskinner
12-15-2007, 08:50 AM
The gift of wisdom or just plain common sense wisdom ?
This is getting curiouser and curiouser, Bro.:)
philjones
12-15-2007, 08:50 AM
I've got propane and a generator.
But I also have a dear lady in our church, a widow with a large house who has been very close to our family, who invited us to camp out with her until our power comes back on.
Wisdom dictated that her offer was a better solution.
IS she a good cook or does she at least let Lady CS get to the stove? :D
Hmmmm. Must be that global WARMING thing Gore was talking about.
Hope things get better weather wise for the both of you.
Parson
can you believe that Guy? even some of the Libs scoff at him
It's okay in the day time-bearable, about 58-62(sunny no wind at all) but nights have been going down to freezing
okay staysharp we'll stop hyjacking your thread now :santathumb
freeatlast
12-15-2007, 08:52 AM
This is getting curiouser and curiouser, Bro.:)
Ain't it the truth !!!
Would like to see an answer before staysharp ducks out for the weekend on his operation of the gift.
staysharp
12-15-2007, 08:53 AM
You first...do iyou feel it empower you as a supernatural gift. How do you personally "operate" in the gift of wisdom.
The post #84 is not how I would have responded to you. I don't agree with some of it's content. That in and of itself has nothing to do with me or CS's gifting of wisdom.
Me and the Coon may have some differences in our learning..in our knowledge that we have gained thru our many years of searching God's word.
He and I and even you if given the same scripture to discern it's meanning may come to different conclusions.....tell me Staysharp, what that has to do with the GIFT of wisdom?
I actually do feel wiser at times dealing with God's people. I have had instances when I felt instant knowledge or wisdom, or God would bring back something to my remembrance to be used situationally.
I do believe the gift of wisdom is and should be operational as a gift. Personally, when I take time to seek the Lord and not get in a hurry, look through every possible scenario, then I make wiser choices.
I do believe God will empower us in greater wisdom if we seek it. Of course, submitting to it, now thats a different animal all together. God bless.
Coonskinner
12-15-2007, 08:53 AM
I believe all scriptures together form our salvational doctrines, not just one specifically. Without getting into a doctrinal war of words, suffice it to say, I baptize in Jesus name and preach the H.G. as a separate gift from God.
I do not tell anyone who has faith in Christ and loves him, they are not saved. I am not their judge and have not been given the right to dictate any one's personal salvation. I did not die for them, and have not right scripturally to question anothers faith.
Thanks, for your input, sorry for your dilemma. Time to get up and be productive. God bless and have a great weekend.
I don't make it my business to go around telling folks they are all going to hell either; I just don't see Scripturally how we can be saved without being born again as per John 3:5 and Acts 2:38.
I aksed because if you don't believe in the essentiality of the New Birth, the discussion we are having is going to be affected by that.
We are coming from two totally different perspectives, and may have a hard time not taling pat each other.
Coonskinner
12-15-2007, 08:55 AM
IS she a good cook or does she at least let Lady CS get to the stove? :D
She is a good cook.
We've got her,Sarilda, and my Granny under one roof...suffice to say we are eatin high on the hog.:)
philjones
12-15-2007, 08:56 AM
She is a good cook.
We've got her,Sarilda, and my Granny under one roof...suffice to say we are eatin high on the hog.:)
Wisdom is definitely at work!:shockamoo Shicka mo Shy pass me that pie! :D
freeatlast
12-15-2007, 08:56 AM
I actually do feel wiser at times dealing with God's people. I have had instances when I felt instant knowledge or wisdom, or God would bring back something to my remembrance to be used situationally.
I do believe the gift of wisdom is and should be operational as a gift. Personally, when I take time to seek the Lord and not get in a hurry, look through every possible scenario, then I make wiser choices.
I do believe God will empower us in greater wisdom if we seek it. Of course, submitting to it, now thats a different animal all together. God bless.
Your answer is pretty correct SS...i know that because I am wise :santathumb
It is also very close to the answer that would be given by just about any one of us.
So then...why do you think we are all ignorant?? :rudolph
Nahum
12-15-2007, 08:57 AM
staysharp is yet another example of a non-Apostolic bashing those of us who do believe the doctrine on AFF.
The idea that the Acts 2:38 response to the gospel is somehow a "fringe" idea in Pentecost is laughable.
Coonskinner
12-15-2007, 08:57 AM
Wisdom is definitely at work!:shockamoo
The results may be a little short of supernatural, but they are super. :)
Coonskinner
12-15-2007, 08:58 AM
Your answer is pretty correct SS...i know that because I am wise :santathumb
It is also very close to the answer that would be given by just about any one of us.
So then...why do you think we are all ignorant?? :rudolph
I was wondering what was revelatory or unique about that myself....?????
freeatlast
12-15-2007, 08:59 AM
The results may be a little short of supernatural, but they are super. :)
.........andthats supper.
Coonskinner
12-15-2007, 08:59 AM
staysharp is yet another example of a non-Apostolic bashing those of us who do believe the doctrine on AFF.
The idea that the Acts 2:38 response to the gospel is somehow a "fringe" idea in Pentecost is laughable.
That is pretty much my take too, and was from the beginning.
I haven't seen much evidence to change my mind.
staysharp
12-15-2007, 09:00 AM
Your answer is pretty correct SS...i know that because I am wise :santathumb
It is also very close to the answer that would be given by just about any one of us.
So then...why do you think we are all ignorant?? :rudolph
Just the fact we are going round and round and round seems pretty ignorant to me.
Nahum
12-15-2007, 09:00 AM
That is pretty much my take too, and was from the beginning.
I haven't seen much evidence to change my mind.
His/her sole purpose seems to be to show us the error of our ways.:jolly:jolly
staysharp is yet another example of a non-Apostolic bashing those of us who do believe the doctrine on AFF.
The idea that the Acts 2:38 response to the gospel is somehow a "fringe" idea in Pentecost is laughable.
It was discovered just this week that There's a group of folks here that are plants from the Expentecostal forum.
freeatlast
12-15-2007, 09:01 AM
Just the fact we are going round and round and round seems pretty ignorant to me.
You started it !! :star
Nahum
12-15-2007, 09:02 AM
It was discovered just this week that There's a group of folks here that are plants from the Expentecostal forum.
Yes, there is that.
And then there is the fact that Daniel Alicea has invited a slew of his little buddies over here as well.
Yes, there is that.
And then there is the fact that Daniel Alicea has invited a slew of his little buddies over here as well.
Well I perfer the balance and mix of what the forum has always represented.
Dan, don't tilt the forum too far the left. I wouldn't want the cons tilting it to nothing but hardline either.
Dan,The cons will feel threatend and leave if it gets out of balanced. we've dealt with that many times before.
those ExPentecostal plants are too much - they've even helped to create a crazed mass muderer
freeatlast
12-15-2007, 09:11 AM
Well I perfer the balance and mix of what the forum has always represented.
Dan, don't tilt the forum too far the left. I wouldn't want the cons tilting it to nothing but hardline either.
Dan,The cons will feel threatend and leave if it gets out of balanced. we've dealt with that many times before.
those ExPentecostal plants are too much - they've even helped to create a crazed mass muderer
Who are they Thad??
Who are they Thad??
there was a thread in Thad's Tab but the admin deleted it.
someone from our forum had access to their private forum and came over here and spilled the goods- posted the threads from their forum. they was sending spies over here to purposely do damage to AFF.
the admin. here had to delete it - it named names of people here that were plants
RandyWayne
12-15-2007, 07:16 PM
I am sure there are one (maybe two) who assume I am a plant.
Muhawww hawww HAWWWW!!
(But I'm nothing but a small town sheriff trying to end one world-ending crisis after another.....)
mizpeh
12-16-2007, 01:37 PM
Who are they Thad??
The two who were explicitly named haven't posted here with their nicks since that thread was posted. Timmy and Sheltiedad. I was hoping they would come by with an apology for being deceptive and trying to sow discord and discontent but they haven't. There is a female here as well but I never got the name she uses here although she did admit to liking the interaction she found on AFF at times. And even Coonskinner was paid a compliment over there on the expentecostal forum!
Coonskinner
12-16-2007, 01:44 PM
The two who were explicitly named haven't posted here with their nicks since that thread was posted. Timmy and Sheltiedad. I was hoping they would come by with an apology for being deceptive and trying to sow discord and discontent but they haven't. There is a female here as well but I never got the name she uses here although she did admit to liking the interaction she found on AFF at times. And even Coonskinner was paid a compliment over there on the expentecostal forum!
You have no idea the joy that brings me.
BoredOutOfMyMind
12-16-2007, 01:51 PM
Well I perfer the balance and mix of what the forum has always represented.
Dan, don't tilt the forum too far the left. I wouldn't want the cons tilting it to nothing but hardline either.
Dan,The cons will feel threatend and leave if it gets out of balanced. we've dealt with that many times before.
those ExPentecostal plants are too much - they've even helped to create a crazed mass muderer
Thad, this last one is totally unfair. We have had a few crazies here that some thought capable of being so mentally unstable to cause harm to another. None of us were there to read who did or did not interact and no way can we completely blame that board for what tragedy happened. This is as absurd as can be.
J-Roc
12-16-2007, 02:13 PM
Thad, this last one is totally unfair. We have had a few crazies here that some thought capable of being so mentally unstable to cause harm to another. None of us were there to read who did or did not interact and no way can we completely blame that board for what tragedy happened. This is as absurd as can be.
Ditto
J-Roc
12-16-2007, 02:41 PM
The New Birth is the entrance to the Kingdom. It is the starter's gun, not the finish line. It is a birth, not a diploma. It is the beginning of spiritual life, not a miraculous impartation of wisdom and spiritual maturity. Those things take time and willingness to learn and grow.
Certainly there are pastors who make terrible mistakes and hurt people. There are men filling pulpits who are probably no more called to preach than Hillary Clinton.
Human nature is what it is. Flesh is what it is.
But you are barking up the wrong tree when you try to denigrate the Truth of the Apostles doctrine by pointing out that there are people who know it who aren't everything they ought to be. You are bringing your accusation from a false premise.
If salvation instantly conferred perfection, there would be no need for the Epistles.
I concur....good post! :santathumb
anapko
12-16-2007, 03:40 PM
Gotsha again [you]
Man...my head was majorly swimming with your gratuitous post freeatlast! I believe I will carefully insert the rest of my body into my wisdom! LOL:amen
pelathais
12-16-2007, 03:53 PM
Gotsha again [you]
Man...my head was majorly swimming with your gratuitous post freeatlast! I believe I will carefully insert the rest of my body into my wisdom! LOL:amen
Just trying to find freeat last's post...
pelathais
12-16-2007, 04:06 PM
The two who were explicitly named haven't posted here with their nicks since that thread was posted. Timmy and Sheltiedad. I was hoping they would come by with an apology for being deceptive and trying to sow discord and discontent but they haven't. There is a female here as well but I never got the name she uses here although she did admit to liking the interaction she found on AFF at times. And even Coonskinner was paid a compliment over there on the expentecostal forum!
Maybe it's just me, but sheltiedad seemed kind of transparent about where he was coming from. He had been burned in an OP environment a long time ago and was an open skeptic about things.
Timmy was more opaque but I don't think anyone believed he was a professing OP. These two guys seemed to be more interested in stirring the pot. There were others that snickered about the posts and the replies.
The AFF poster Cupcake was also "indicted." But her politics were so incredibly leftist and her general tone on AFF was so bitter that I don't think anyone took her for anything other than what she appeared to be.
Coon was complimented and AFF in general was complimented. The "openess" of this forum and the give and take that goes on was praised.
I don't know that it's fair to say the "ex-PC" forum created the shooter. Psychologists have been debating what creates those types for centuries. The shooter's posts were condemened for being very bitter and there were attempts to reach out to the guy. When the posts became threatening the authorities were notified.
In fact, as the investigation was just starting there were news reports that there "may be a link" between the two shootings and it seemed like the cops were following up on that angle from the start. The reason the cops had for suspecting a link seems to have been the info provided by the "ex-PC" forum.
mizpeh
12-16-2007, 05:04 PM
Maybe it's just me, but sheltiedad seemed kind of transparent about where he was coming from. He had been burned in an OP environment a long time ago and was an open skeptic about things. I agree, SD was open. But the impression I got from reading the other sites posts is that they were here to undermine what we believe and catch the weak and struggling out.
Deuteronomy 25:17-18 Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, when ye were come forth out of Egypt; How he met thee by the way, and smote the hindmost of thee, even all that were feeble behind thee, when thou wast faint and weary; and he feared not God
Timmy was more opaque but I don't think anyone believed he was a professing OP. These two guys seemed to be more interested in stirring the pot. There were others that snickered about the posts and the replies. Stirring the pot was their reason for being here but hopefully they learned not to classify all OP's into a lump.
The AFF poster Cupcake was also "indicted." But her politics were so incredibly leftist and her general tone on AFF was so bitter that I don't think anyone took her for anything other than what she appeared to be.True.
Coon was complimented and AFF in general was complimented. The "openess" of this forum and the give and take that goes on was praised. Don't forget Daniel A. and Michlow got kudos as well. :)
I don't know that it's fair to say the "ex-PC" forum created the shooter. Psychologists have been debating what creates those types for centuries. The shooter's posts were condemened for being very bitter and there were attempts to reach out to the guy. When the posts became threatening the authorities were notified. I didn't say they created a shooter! Neither did I say they encouraged the shooter to commit crimes. Nor am I saying they are 'bad' people. I am saying that they came here with an underhanded agenda. I feel sorry for them and their inability to get past their bad experiences with some pentecostals.
Sheltiedad
12-16-2007, 05:04 PM
I don't really plan on posting further, defending myself or apologizing... I will just say I never lied and was one of the first ones to speak up on several occassions that I was a member at both sites... in fact, I found the original FCF through that site. Between various incarnations of FCF, NFCF and AFF, I have accumulated well over 4000 posts total between those forums while having somewhere around 600 total over 5 years on the ex-pentecostal site.
I still have not even seen the PRIVATE posts from those forums which were posted here, I have only heard about them... so I am not even sure what to apologize for... I'm sure I've written worse than whatever the dishonest person (from here) who was digging for stuff posted over here... but I imagine they are not much different than the manner in which I posted here, except it being a private forum, I could name names... and I believe posts where I was laughing about my ban being revoked after only a few hours were listed here too from what I heard. Some of the posts that I was quoted were posts that I posted directly on this forum and not just in the private forum over there.
I had already pretty much decided to stop posting when several people blamed the members of the ex-pen site for the Colorado shooter... I could use the same logic to blame this site for Nathan robbing the bank.... or blame Christianity as a whole for abortion clinic bombings, but I won't. That logic just makes me sick and I see no further sense in having anything to do with these forums... which is a shame since it was pretty much my only interaction with pentecostals except at family gatherings.
So, that's where I am... and where I went.
I have never lied here about who I am... although I have downplayed the intense dislike I have towards the Apostolic culture... but if that wasn't already transparent, then... I don't know what to tell you. The only alt I have here is Don Quixote, which I created as a joke... you will not find me posting under any other name here. I have no reason to hide behind alternate screen names.
Fiyahstarter
12-16-2007, 05:06 PM
Gotsha again [you]
I'm so confused....
Felicity
12-16-2007, 05:29 PM
Haven't read through this thread, but answering the initial question that started the thread quickly here in fewer words than the questions probably deserve but oh well ....... ;) :)
Wisdom is found in seeking after God, understanding His will and His ways and obeying the commands, precepts and living according to the principles set forthe in Scripture. We can have it (wisdom) if we are lacking and if we ask for it.
Self-seeking and going after what satisfies flesh results in the opposite of wisdom - namely foolishness and folly - and will lead to destruction.
Felicity
12-16-2007, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by freeatlast:
Gotsha again FelicityHuh? Got me again? Where?
LOL. :jolly
anapko
12-16-2007, 07:06 PM
I'm so confused....
Don't worry...just one of my very few fans! And I didn't even know. LOL!!!
Fiyahstarter
12-16-2007, 07:31 PM
It is our Elitist attitude that is our plague. I got the holy ghost and they don't.
So many stop right therre and stdy the word no further for themselves.
We have among us some of the most biblically ignorant people in the world.
Before you all shoot me, we do have some among us who have studied the word in depth.
For instance, [you] one of the most studious posters among us. Always right on topic. Always the right answer. [you] is the the greatest all time smartest poster on this forum. :jolly:jolly :christmasjig
Clever, clever. You had me.
pelathais
12-16-2007, 07:57 PM
I didn't say they created a shooter! Neither did I say they encouraged the shooter to commit crimes. Nor am I saying they are 'bad' people. I am saying that they came here with an underhanded agenda. I feel sorry for them and their inability to get past their bad experiences with some pentecostals.
No you didn't. I went from responding to you to just speaking in general. Some one (I forget who) on the deleted thread had said words to that effect about the "ex-PC" forum.
Sorry for the apparent confusion. I'll try and be more specific with my confusion in the future. http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon11.gif
staysharp
12-16-2007, 08:07 PM
No you didn't. I went from responding to you to just speaking in general. Some one (I forget who) on the deleted thread had said words to that effect about the "ex-PC" forum.
Sorry for the apparent confusion. I'll try and be more specific with my confusion in the future. http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon11.gif
Thanks guys for the hijack...still trying to figure out what any of this has to do with wisdom from above. Maybe I need some wisdom to figure that out. lol
Yes, there is that.
And then there is the fact that Daniel Alicea has invited a slew of his little buddies over here as well.
Who are these "slew" of friends, PP, that I've invited here?
Seriously this is more hysterical hormonal hyperbole. <<< [that there was unintended alliteration]
I've invited/referred a childhood friend in Jeff [J-Roc], my sister Darcie, James Griffin [friend and NCO compatriot] and one other poster who has registered but has never posted. I also assisted in making sure RevBuddy's [UPCI minister and family friend] registration was processed ... upon his request.
The more you obfuscate and try to marginalize me ... the more you make yourself out to be a radical temperamental poster who can no longer taken seriously.
Please clarify who these slew of friends are ... I'm sure we'd all like to hear a good conspiracy theory.
Get real ... get help.
pelathais
12-16-2007, 08:49 PM
Hey, no problemo Sharpie! Your thread struck me a being something of a cynical swipe at OP's that was based upon the thread I had started to try and bring a little laughter and goodness into their lives. Judge my attitudes accordingly.
But to get you back on "topic" here, consider that Wisdom "goes crying in the street" seeking those who would follow "her." This gives me the idea that wisdom is found as one journeys and gains experience. We need to learn from our experiences and the experiences of others. We don't have to make all of the mistakes ourselves.
But to have the wisdom needed to gain wisdom in the first place requires that we listen, and not be always dictating the terms of the discussion. Listen to others. Learn from their experiences. It could be that you're overlooking a vast store of wisdom that is right under your nose. :thumbsup
I don't really plan on posting further, defending myself or apologizing... I will just say I never lied and was one of the first ones to speak up on several occassions that I was a member at both sites... in fact, I found the original FCF through that site. Between various incarnations of FCF, NFCF and AFF, I have accumulated well over 4000 posts total between those forums while having somewhere around 600 total over 5 years on the ex-pentecostal site.
I still have not even seen the PRIVATE posts from those forums which were posted here, I have only heard about them... so I am not even sure what to apologize for... I'm sure I've written worse than whatever the dishonest person (from here) who was digging for stuff posted over here... but I imagine they are not much different than the manner in which I posted here, except it being a private forum, I could name names... and I believe posts where I was laughing about my ban being revoked after only a few hours were listed here too from what I heard. Some of the posts that I was quoted were posts that I posted directly on this forum and not just in the private forum over there.
I had already pretty much decided to stop posting when several people blamed the members of the ex-pen site for the Colorado shooter... I could use the same logic to blame this site for Nathan robbing the bank.... or blame Christianity as a whole for abortion clinic bombings, but I won't. That logic just makes me sick and I see no further sense in having anything to do with these forums... which is a shame since it was pretty much my only interaction with pentecostals except at family gatherings.
So, that's where I am... and where I went.
I have never lied here about who I am... although I have downplayed the intense dislike I have towards the Apostolic culture... but if that wasn't already transparent, then... I don't know what to tell you. The only alt I have here is Don Quixote, which I created as a joke... you will not find me posting under any other name here. I have no reason to hide behind alternate screen names.
I asked this very same question ... in the deleted thread ... Brad has been around from the beginning ... eliminating this Taliban-style accusation that he's a plant.
It was discovered just this week that There's a group of folks here that are plants from the Expentecostal forum.
Who is this group??? Have you joined the kookfringers too??? Shelitie is a senior member of the FCF forums .... leaving this "group" to being Timmy and CB1 ... who apparently still was a member of the ExPentecostal forum before he "broke the non-story".
Well I perfer the balance and mix of what the forum has always represented.
Dan, don't tilt the forum too far the left. I wouldn't want the cons tilting it to nothing but hardline either.
Dan,The cons will feel threatend and leave if it gets out of balanced. we've dealt with that many times before.
those ExPentecostal plants are too much - they've even helped to create a crazed mass muderer
Do you think I wield that much influence here, Thaddy?
The last bolded statement may be the most ignorant thing you've ever posted. Well ... take it back .... a strong second behind PP's remarks in this thread.
staysharp
12-16-2007, 08:57 PM
Hey, no problemo Sharpie! Your thread struck me a being something of a cynical swipe at OP's that was based upon the thread I had started to try and bring a little laughter and goodness into their lives. Judge my attitudes accordingly.
But to get you back on "topic" here, consider that Wisdom "goes crying in the street" seeking those who would follow "her." This gives me the idea that wisdom is found as one journeys and gains experience. We need to learn from our experience and the experience of others. We don't have to make all of the mistakes ourselves.
But to have the wisdom needed to gain wisdom in the first place requires that we listen, and not be always dictating the terms of the discussion. Listen to others. Learn from their experiences. It could be that you're overlooking a vast store of wisdom that is right under your nose. :thumbsup
I agree, I too have been a recipient of many who have paved the way, learned from others as they were gracious to share with me their experiences.
I was not swiping OP, I was really interested in knowing if Pentecostals sought for the gift of wisdom as they would seek for the gift of healing, miracles, prophecy, discernment, etc. I know many preachers who would fast for days for the gift of healing or prophecy, yet I have never heard anyone seek the gift of wisdom.
My point is why aren't we? Why do young preachers seek after healing or prophecy and never wisdom? I think wisdom from above is critical to taking care of God's people. More than the other gifts.
Could it be that prophecy or healing elevates the flesh? Yet wisdom glorifies God?
pelathais
12-16-2007, 09:04 PM
Yes, there is that.
And then there is the fact that Daniel Alicea has invited a slew of his little buddies over here as well.
You have taken a rather cynical turn for the worse recently, PP. Just my observation. You've been angry and lashing out at folks. One day you started a whole string of threads that were all rather sour in mood.
About that same time the whole UPCI fellowship seemed to have become something unpleasant for you. What gives?
Oh, and I'm not one of DA's "minions." I planted the user name here before I started to post as a way to kind of "break the ice." In fact, I am DA and a member of the Moravian Brethren seeking to convert all Oneness Pentecostals to our simple ways of Christian unity and love. I just made up all of that stuff about my "dad" being a preacher and NYC and other stuff to mess with ya.
My "slew of little buddies" include [you]. And this is one poster you don't want to mess with.
pelathais
12-16-2007, 09:05 PM
I agree, I too have been a recipient of many who have paved the way, learned from others as they were gracious to share with me their experiences.
I was not swiping OP, I was really interested in knowing if Pentecostals sought for the gift of wisdom as they would seek for the gift of healing, miracles, prophecy, discernment, etc. I know many preachers who would fast for days for the gift of healing or prophecy, yet I have never heard anyone seek the gift of wisdom.
My point is why aren't we? Why do young preachers seek after healing or prophecy and never wisdom? I think wisdom from above is critical to taking care of God's people. More than the other gifts.
Could it be that prophecy or healing elevates the flesh? Yet wisdom glorifies God?
Excellent thoughts!
staysharp
12-16-2007, 09:09 PM
Please clarify who these slew of friends are ... I'm sure we'd all like to hear a good conspiracy theory.
[/B]
Daniel, I for one am proud to be your friend!
Scott Hutchinson
12-16-2007, 09:12 PM
I might not agree with Daniel on everything but I do consider him as a friend and a brother.
No you didn't. I went from responding to you to just speaking in general. Some one (I forget who) on the deleted thread had said words to that effect about the "ex-PC" forum.
Sorry for the apparent confusion. I'll try and be more specific with my confusion in the future. http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon11.gif
I read her post and walked away w/ the same impression ... I also asked her to clarify her remarks but apparently she did not see my remarks because the thread was deleted.
Thank you Scott, Pel, and StaySharp ... I admire and love you too.
Now tell them the truth ... I planted you guys on this thread.
Scott Hutchinson
12-16-2007, 09:39 PM
Yeah you payed me a large sum of money to be planted on this thread.
Timmy
12-16-2007, 10:42 PM
there was a thread in Thad's Tab but the admin deleted it.
someone from our forum had access to their private forum and came over here and spilled the goods- posted the threads from their forum. they was sending spies over here to purposely do damage to AFF.
the admin. here had to delete it - it named names of people here that were plants
First, I want to say that the one who posted the private threads has apologized, and I have forgiven him. Some of the posters on the thread, before it was pulled, were cheering him on. None of them have apologized, to my knowledge. They knew that what was being done would be against our wishes (said to hurry before we ban him, e.g.), but didn't seem to have any qualms about the activity (with an exception or two).
Thad, your post is inaccurate in the following points:
1. Nobody sent anybody here. There are no plants. We are all individuals, free to register and post on whatever sites will have us. The ex-pentecostals site doesn't encourage nor discourage anyone's posting on AFF. All the posters were acting of their own accord. (Some AFF members have joined our forum, by the way.)
2. Nobody that I know of (certainly not me) intend to damage AFF. Many of you have already noted that we have complimented AFF in its openness and tolerance. I have done so, both on the ex-pente board and here. I can speak only for myself as to intentions, and they were to stir the pot, for sure (just as a good many OPs do!), to encourage you good folks to think about what you believe, to defend your doctrines. To exercise 1 Peter 3:15! I have never hidden my ex-pentecostalness. To the contrary, I have affirmed it several times. No one ever asked me if I also post on the ex-pente board, but if they had, I would have gladly admitted it. Why wouldn't I?
3. If you mean that an admin had to delete the thread because it named names, well, you'd have to ask the admins, I suppose, but it may be because it publicly exposed private communications, and was deleted at our request. Oddly, some posters here are aghast about our copying some AFF posts to our board in private areas, and at least one has thought that it may be illegal. Quoting public posts in a private forum, illegal? Hmm.
Timmy
12-16-2007, 10:50 PM
Maybe it's just me, but sheltiedad seemed kind of transparent about where he was coming from. He had been burned in an OP environment a long time ago and was an open skeptic about things.
Timmy was more opaque but I don't think anyone believed he was a professing OP. These two guys seemed to be more interested in stirring the pot. There were others that snickered about the posts and the replies.
The AFF poster Cupcake was also "indicted." But her politics were so incredibly leftist and her general tone on AFF was so bitter that I don't think anyone took her for anything other than what she appeared to be.
Coon was complimented and AFF in general was complimented. The "openess" of this forum and the give and take that goes on was praised.
I don't know that it's fair to say the "ex-PC" forum created the shooter. Psychologists have been debating what creates those types for centuries. The shooter's posts were condemened for being very bitter and there were attempts to reach out to the guy. When the posts became threatening the authorities were notified.
In fact, as the investigation was just starting there were news reports that there "may be a link" between the two shootings and it seemed like the cops were following up on that angle from the start. The reason the cops had for suspecting a link seems to have been the info provided by the "ex-PC" forum.
Thanks, Pel. That's correct. In fact, both the FBI and the Arvada police were notified between the two shootings, as soon as the threatening posts were seen. Unfortunately, there was not enough information to identify his next target. We gave them IP addresses, access to the posts, all the info we had.
BoredOutOfMyMind
12-16-2007, 11:03 PM
My "slew of little buddies" include [you]. And this is one poster you don't want to mess with.
piffle
Timmy
12-16-2007, 11:08 PM
those ExPentecostal plants are too much - they've even helped to create a crazed mass muderer
In answer to the thread's question, some Apostolics are very unwise.
Coonskinner
12-17-2007, 05:45 AM
I agree, I too have been a recipient of many who have paved the way, learned from others as they were gracious to share with me their experiences.
I was not swiping OP, I was really interested in knowing if Pentecostals sought for the gift of wisdom as they would seek for the gift of healing, miracles, prophecy, discernment, etc. I know many preachers who would fast for days for the gift of healing or prophecy, yet I have never heard anyone seek the gift of wisdom.
My point is why aren't we? Why do young preachers seek after healing or prophecy and never wisdom? I think wisdom from above is critical to taking care of God's people. More than the other gifts.
Could it be that prophecy or healing elevates the flesh? Yet wisdom glorifies God?
Sigh.
I guess we must travel in totally different circles.
My experience and perspective have been completely different than yours.
I have heard about preachers going on long fasts for specific gifts, like prophecy or healing, but I have never known that to be a mainstream practice. I don't think that is a valid approach anyway, fasting to try and get God to give you something that is a gift operated at His discretion. Fasting isn't spiritual green stamps that we trade in for stuff in the catalog. So from the beginning, your premise doesn't ring with me.
And as a young man, I was taught by my elders to pray for wisdom, understanding, and knowledge, every day. Make that a daily prayer.
I practice this and teach my young men this same thing.
Furthermore, I read a chapter of proverbs every day, reading through the entire Book every month, and require my young preachers to practice this also. I have been doing this for years.
I have seen a lot of people healed, and been used in prophecy and various other gifts too, but have not ever fasted a day for any specific "gift." I would question the motives of someone doing that.
I think it is far better to seek Jesus, who is the Giver, and if I get Him, I'll have all the gifts I need when they are needed.
So your foundational premise--that Pentecostals are all about seeking sensational, flesh exalting supernatural gifts, and have no interest in wisdom and basic principles of godliness--is absolutely false from where I stand.
It may apply to some fringe elements without a doubt. And maybe that's all you have had experience with. On one post, you mentioned Richard Heard...that explains a lot.
But this is not true for the vast majority of Apostolic men who are in the trenches, digging out works for God day in and day out, and not making the news.
staysharp
12-17-2007, 07:19 AM
Sigh.
I guess we must travel in totally different circles.
My experience and perspective have been completely different than yours.
I have heard about preachers going on long fasts for specific gifts, like prophecy or healing, but I have never known that to be a mainstream practice. I don't think that is a valid approach anyway, fasting to try and get God to give you something that is a gift operated at His discretion. Fasting isn't spiritual green stamps that we trade in for stuff in the catalog. So from the beginning, your premise doesn't ring with me.
And as a young man, I was taught by my elders to pray for wisdom, understanding, and knowledge, every day. Make that a daily prayer.
I practice this and teach my young men this same thing.
Furthermore, I read a chapter of proverbs every day, reading through the entire Book every month, and require my young preachers to practice this also. I have been doing this for years.
I have seen a lot of people healed, and been used in prophecy and various other gifts too, but have not ever fasted a day for any specific "gift." I would question the motives of someone doing that.
I think it is far better to seek Jesus, who is the Giver, and if I get Him, I'll have all the gifts I need when they are needed.
So your foundational premise--that Pentecostals are all about seeking sensational, flesh exalting supernatural gifts, and have no interest in wisdom and basic principles of godliness--is absolutely false from where I stand.
It may apply to some fringe elements without a doubt. And maybe that's all you have had experience with. On one post, you mentioned Richard Heard...that explains a lot.
But this is not true for the vast majority of Apostolic men who are in the trenches, digging out works for God day in and day out, and not making the news.
Well, after 15 pages, I get an answer! Great! I really appreciate it. I have witnessed sensationalism in certain extreme environments growing up. Also, have had some exposure to UPC bible school and can say that what I witnessed did encourage sensationalism.
Also, beyond UPC and into mainstream pentecostalism, we see sensationalism elevated as a sign or approval of God. Gold teeth, gold falling out of the sky, laughing, barking, prophecy, etc.
Its good to hear from a balanced perspective from the grass roots. I do agree with you that fasting, extreme prayer, etc. is not the appropriate venue to seek God's hand. However, those methods are taught as a sign of spiritualism.
It would behoove our educational institutions to teach balance and wisdom as practical applications. Even role playing certain situations, crisis intervention, hostile saints, etc. Thanks for your input.
In answer to the thread's question, some Apostolics are very unwise.
the wording i used was too strong for which i apologize.
I got chastised last night for making that comment.
I do believe though that if someone is already emotionally unstable, constant hate speech can cause unstable people to do things that normal people would never dream of doing without it being the intention of those discussing those they hate
mizpeh
12-17-2007, 10:56 AM
Well, after 15 pages, I get an answer! Great! I really appreciate it. I have witnessed sensationalism in certain extreme environments growing up. Also, have had some exposure to UPC bible school and can say that what I witnessed did encourage sensationalism.
Also, beyond UPC and into mainstream pentecostalism, we see sensationalism elevated as a sign or approval of God. Gold teeth, gold falling out of the sky, laughing, barking, prophecy, etc.
Its good to hear from a balanced perspective from the grass roots. I do agree with you that fasting, extreme prayer, etc. is not the appropriate venue to seek God's hand. However, those methods are taught as a sign of spiritualism.
I, personally, have not witnessed extremism when it comes to the gifts of the Spirit in the three different churches I have been a member of, although I have heard it is out there. There are biblical teachings concerning these things in 1 Corinthians. I would have disagree with you and Coonskinner regarding seeking spiritual gifts. I see nothing wrong with praying for spiritual gifts and fasting along with prayer. The motive of some may be wrong but prayer and fasting for spiritual gifts so that the manifestation of the Spirit is present in the church is not wrong.
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.1 Cor 14:1
Paul talked about coming to Rome in the fullness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ, Rom 15:29, and to Corinth in the power of the Spirit:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Co 4:19-20 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power. For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
It would behoove our educational institutions to teach balance and wisdom as practical applications. Even role playing certain situations, crisis intervention, hostile saints, etc. I agree with what Coonskinner has said about wisdom and the differences between the wisdom God gives us when we pray and the supernatural gift of wisdom. I've even followed his example and have added a chapter of Proverbs to my daily devotions.
I would also agree that Coonskinner is right on about these things being taught at the local church level. We shouldn't have to go away to Bible school to be introduced to these things. After all isn't that partly what the ministry is for:
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
But I find it insulting to put all the onus on the ministry. The saints themselves are responsible to work out their own salvation, to walk with God daily, and to seek God for wisdom. We can't put all the blame on the ministry. If you know of a minister that lacks wisdom, pray for him, and fast for him.
For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; Col 1:9
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. James 1:5
It's much easier to lay blame instead of praying for others.
Timmy
12-17-2007, 11:01 AM
the wording i used was too strong for which i apologize.
I got chastised last night for making that comment.
I do believe though that if someone is already emotionally unstable, constant hate speech can cause unstable people to do things that normal people would never dream of doing without it being the intention of those discussing those they hate
Apology accepted.
As to the comment about constant hate speech, I guess we see what we want to see. (And perhaps some of the things posted here on AFF are not really as hateful toward us as I perceive them.) I can't even count the number of times Matthew was encouraged to move on with his life, not to let the people that hurt him determine his future. He was urged, many times, to get help. In fact, he was in counseling for at least a while, though I don't know if that was due to our advice or not.
Anyway, as I said, I accept your apology. And it would be nice if this verbal jousting could just end, here and now. If it continues, nobody would win.
Apology accepted.
As to the comment about constant hate speech, I guess we see what we want to see. (And perhaps some of the things posted here on AFF are not really as hateful toward us as I perceive them.) I can't even count the number of times Matthew was encouraged to move on with his life, not to let the people that hurt him determine his future. He was urged, many times, to get help. In fact, he was in counseling for at least a while, though I don't know if that was due to our advice or not.
Anyway, as I said, I accept your apology. And it would be nice if this verbal jousting could just end, here and now. If it continues, nobody would win.
This is what happens w/ montage reporting ... it is possible to thread enough text, audio, pictures, etc ... in such a way to persuade people to believe what you want them to believe.
It's unfortunate some are not wise enough to be objective and critically process what they read and see.
mizpeh
12-17-2007, 11:48 AM
This is what happens w/ montage reporting ... it is possible to thread enough text, audio, pictures, etc ... in such a way to persuade people to believe what you want them to believe.
It's unfortunte some are not wise enough to objective and critically process what they read and see.
Dan, did you read the thread that was deleted? What did you think of some of the stuff Luther (I think I have the name right) wrote about pentecostals and his plans to detox them from their cult? I understood completely what he was saying in his post. I'm all the more wiser for knowing what their (his) agenda is.
And, Dan, I like discussing the Bible with those that don't agree with me or it. I was once an atheist and I remember the mindset I had then. So I'm not adverse to Timmy and SheltieDad being here but I don't like deceitfulness. :rudolph
Scott Hutchinson
12-17-2007, 11:51 AM
MIZPEH you an athesist that is really hard to believe as you seem so on-fire for God.
RevDWW
12-17-2007, 11:55 AM
It's unfortunte some are not wise enough to objective and critically process what they read and see.
Hey Dan, not that I don't agree with this statement; but who died and left you the arbiter of what is wise and/or logical? :nahnah
Hey Dan, not that I don't agree with this statement; but who died and left you the arbiter of what is wise and/or logical? :nahnah
he picked up that title from reading Fudge's book.
RevDWW
12-17-2007, 12:01 PM
he picked up that title from reading Fudge's book.
My wife makes really good chocolate fudge and I eat it, does that give me and special powers? :nutso
rgcraig
12-17-2007, 12:03 PM
My wife makes really good chocolate fudge and I eat it, does that give me and special powers? :nutso
Naw, probably just extra pounds.
philjones
12-17-2007, 12:04 PM
I agree, I too have been a recipient of many who have paved the way, learned from others as they were gracious to share with me their experiences.
I was not swiping OP, I was really interested in knowing if Pentecostals sought for the gift of wisdom as they would seek for the gift of healing, miracles, prophecy, discernment, etc. I know many preachers who would fast for days for the gift of healing or prophecy, yet I have never heard anyone seek the gift of wisdom.
My point is why aren't we? Why do young preachers seek after healing or prophecy and never wisdom? I think wisdom from above is critical to taking care of God's people. More than the other gifts.
Could it be that prophecy or healing elevates the flesh? Yet wisdom glorifies God?
Staysharp,
You persist in asking a question that is nothing more than baseless assumption. I know of no young preachers who are seeking the gifts of healing or prophecy that did not begin by seeking for wisdom.
I ask you, please submit proof (other than your individual experience, perhaps) that your claim is based on anything more than your own feeling or overt supposition?
philjones
12-17-2007, 12:09 PM
In answer to the thread's question, some Apostolics are very unwise.
Now, Timmy, are you really being honest here? Based on the posts we have seen and read, you believe that ALL Apostolics are unwise and even more, you believe they are all dangerous to the spiritual and mental health of all whose lives they touch.
Why don't you just post honestly or don't post at all?:santathumb
staysharp
12-17-2007, 12:13 PM
Staysharp,
You persist in asking a question that is nothing more than baseless assumption. I know of no young preachers who are seeking the gifts of healing or prophecy that did not begin by seeking for wisdom.
I ask you, please submit proof (other than your individual experience, perhaps) that your claim is based on anything more than your own feeling or overt supposition?
Dr. Phil, you should know by now that our perceptions are based on life experiences. I'm glad your experience has been the opposite, but that makes neither of us any better than the other. I went to clc and was introduced to the school of the prophets there. I wholeheartedly agree we should seek for wisdom first. Maybe this thread will help our young ministers to do the same.
Coonskinner
12-17-2007, 12:13 PM
I, personally, have not witnessed extremism when it comes to the gifts of the Spirit in the three different churches I have been a member of, although I have heard it is out there. There are biblical teachings concerning these things in 1 Corinthians. I would have disagree with you and Coonskinner regarding seeking spiritual gifts. I see nothing wrong with praying for spiritual gifts and fasting along with prayer. The motive of some may be wrong but prayer and fasting for spiritual gifts so that the manifestation of the Spirit is present in the church is not wrong.
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.1 Cor 14:1
Paul talked about coming to Rome in the fullness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ, Rom 15:29, and to Corinth in the power of the Spirit:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Co 4:19-20 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power. For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
I agree with what Coonskinner has said about wisdom and the differences between the wisdom God gives us when we pray and the supernatural gift of wisdom. I've even followed his example and have added a chapter of Proverbs to my daily devotions.
I would also agree that Coonskinner is right on about these things being taught at the local church level. We shouldn't have to go away to Bible school to be introduced to these things. After all isn't that partly what the ministry is for:
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
But I find it insulting to put all the onus on the ministry. The saints themselves are responsible to work out their own salvation, to walk with God daily, and to seek God for wisdom. We can't put all the blame on the ministry. If you know of a minister that lacks wisdom, pray for him, and fast for him.
For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; Col 1:9
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. James 1:5
It's much easier to lay blame instead of praying for others.
I may not have expressed myself well.
I am all for praying and fasting as integral elements of consecration and spiritual discipline so that we can be in a condition where God can use us.
It's the idea of going on a particular fast for some particular gift that makes me a little nervous.
RevDWW
12-17-2007, 12:17 PM
I may not have expressed myself well.
I am all for praying and fasting as integral elements of consecration and spiritual discipline so that we can be in a condition where God can use us.
It's the idea of going on a particular fast for some particular gift that makes me a little nervous.
I agree with you Coonskinner! Some folks cry out to be used, when thy ought to be crying out to God to be made usable.
staysharp
12-17-2007, 12:18 PM
I may not have expressed myself well.
I am all for praying and fasting as integral elements of consecration and spiritual discipline so that we can be in a condition where God can use us.
It's the idea of going on a particular fast for some particular gift that makes me a little nervous.
Amen, I had an evangelist friend who would go on extended fasts for the miracle ministry. He fasted so much his body began to deteriorate and this strained his already fragile marriage. He resigned the ministry totally disheartened. He literally though he could make God respond to him and his sacrificial offerings to bring the gifts into existence.
He never really saw any miracles.
staysharp
12-17-2007, 12:19 PM
I agree with you Coonskinner! Some folks cry out to be used, when thy ought to be crying out to God to be made usable.
Now that's a good post. Deliver me first, so I can deliver others.
Coonskinner
12-17-2007, 12:21 PM
Dr. Phil, you should know by now that our perceptions are based on life experiences. I'm glad your experience has been the opposite, but that makes neither of us any better than the other. I went to clc and was introduced to the school of the prophets there. I wholeheartedly agree we should seek for wisdom first. Maybe this thread will help our young ministers to do the same.
The picture is growing clearer.
The SOP is not typical of the Apostolic movement in general, that I can pomise you. You are making sweeping generalizations based on observations of what a lot of men would consider fringe activity.
I am a fervent supporter of Apostolicministry, gifts of the Spirit, healing, miracles, and all the rest.
But balance is critical.
staysharp
12-17-2007, 12:25 PM
The picture is growing clearer.
The SOP is not typical of the Apostolic movement in general, that I can pomise you. You are making sweeping generalizations based on observations of what a lot of men would consider fringe activity.
I am a fervent supporter of Apostolicministry, gifts of the Spirit, healing, miracles, and all the rest.
But balance is critical.
Well, we finally found some common ground. Now we'll have to find something else to argue about...hmnnn what about "pentecostal puffs"? Are they scriptural?
mizpeh
12-17-2007, 12:30 PM
I may not have expressed myself well.
I am all for praying and fasting as integral elements of consecration and spiritual discipline so that we can be in a condition where God can use us.
It's the idea of going on a particular fast for some particular gift that makes me a little nervous.
There is something I'm curious about. It's the passage where Paul speaks about the signs of an apostle being wrought in him. After reading and thinking about it one day I'd wondered myself whether only apostles are used in these gifts, miracles and healings. But Paul says in Corinthians that each of us is given several gifts of the Spirit according to the will of God to benefit the body withal. 1 Cor 12:7, 11 Then I had read an article by Jason Dulle in which he had concluded that God would not use him in the gifts of healings or miracles since he wasn't called to be an apostle. It made me a little sad that he had given up seeking something he had desired of God.
http://theosophical.blogspot.com/2007/05/should-we-expect-to-see-miracles-like.html
Hey Dan, not that I don't agree with this statement; but who died and left you the arbiter of what is wise and/or logical? :nahnah
Praxeas, "Mr. Logic" did ...
and he said I could being that he's out to lunch!!!
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