PDA

View Full Version : Did everyone?


Adino
12-15-2007, 07:37 AM
Is it your experience that EVERYONE who repented and was baptized in Jesus name spoke in tongues? (sorry the question must have been too long for the poll)

Did they ALL speak in other tongues?

Hoovie
12-15-2007, 07:43 AM
I gave you your first no vote, but this obviously a set up. What is it you really want to say? :)

Ronzo
12-15-2007, 07:50 AM
I also gave you a no... speaking in tongues does not save anyone

philjones
12-15-2007, 07:53 AM
I also gave you a no... speaking in tongues does not save anyone

Can one ultimately be saved without speaking in tongues?

Just curious.

freeatlast
12-15-2007, 07:57 AM
It does say in the bible that everyone who repents and is baptized will receive the Holy Spirit.

The word never said they'd speak in tongues.

Ronzo
12-15-2007, 08:06 AM
Can one ultimately be saved without speaking in tongues?

Just curious.
Yep. Sho'nuff.

philjones
12-15-2007, 08:10 AM
Yep. Sho'nuff.

OK... I was just curious.

Thanks!

Ronzo
12-15-2007, 08:11 AM
OK... I was just curious.

Thanks!

No problemo

freeatlast
12-15-2007, 08:38 AM
Yep. Sho'nuff.


OK... I was just curious.

Thanks!




now that was just plan hilarious. :gift

Ronzo
12-15-2007, 09:04 AM
now that was just plan hilarious. :gift
I guess I missed the hilarity of it...

freeatlast
12-15-2007, 09:08 AM
Yep. Sho'nuff.

I guess I missed the hilarity of it...

that would have been in Phils response....

"Ok ... I was just curious"

Ronzo
12-15-2007, 09:18 AM
that would have been in Phils response....

"Ok ... I was just curious"
Well... I guess if you say it was funny... it must be.


I still don't get it...

Michael The Disciple
12-15-2007, 11:37 AM
How about this:

a. Tongues is the only acceptable initial evidence
b. Speaking in tongues was/is a normal experience (perhaps not the only one) that follows the Holy Spirit baptism.

Of these 2 I would go with b.

Adino
12-15-2007, 01:10 PM
It does say in the bible that everyone who repents and is baptized will receive the Holy Spirit.Good job, freeatlast. You went right to the point.

100% agree that not everyone they have seen repent and be baptized in Jesus name has spoken in tongues YET Acts 2:38 plainly states that those who repent and are baptized SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Everyone who repents and is baptized in Jesus name SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Since all who've repented and have been baptized in Jesus name have not spoken in tongues, it follows that either:

A) The author was in error and NOT ALL who repent and are baptized in Jesus name SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

or...

B) The author was correct and all who repent and are baptized in Jesus name indeed SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost but this does not mean they will ALL speak in tongues.

I, personally, choose "B" because I believe Acts 2:38.

If the evidential tongues doctrine is true, why have NOT ALL spoken in tongues who have repented and have been baptized in Jesus name?

BrotherEastman
12-15-2007, 01:14 PM
Not everybody did, but everybody should.

Adino
12-15-2007, 01:21 PM
Not everybody did, but everybody should.Praise the Lord, Bro. Eastman. Do you think that Luke, the author of Acts, was incorrect when he said that those who did repent and get baptized in Jesus name WOULD receive the Holy Ghost?

BoredOutOfMyMind
12-15-2007, 01:55 PM
Adino, if you present that repentance and baptism alone show the infilling of the Holy Ghost, how do you dismiss the argument presented that tongues is evidence of the infilling? Likewise, what do you present for evidence of a person having the infilling?

BrotherEastman
12-15-2007, 02:35 PM
Praise the Lord, Bro. Eastman. Do you think that Luke, the author of Acts, was incorrect when he said that those who did repent and get baptized in Jesus name WOULD receive the Holy Ghost?
I don't think Luke was incorrect, is that what you wanted to hear? BTW, I do believe one should speak in tongues for me to actually believe they are filled with the HG.

ManOfWord
12-15-2007, 03:08 PM
In my over 23 yrs. of pastoring, I have seen some people get baptized and speak in tongues and some get baptized and not speak in tongues.

My observation is that some who haven't spoken in tongues have lived a better Christian life than some who have spoken in tongues. (and, obviously, vice versa) :D

crakjak
12-15-2007, 03:18 PM
In my over 23 yrs. of pastoring, I have seen some people get baptized and speak in tongues and some get baptized and not speak in tongues.

My observation is that some who haven't spoken in tongues have lived a better Christian life than some who have spoken in tongues. (and, obviously, vice versa) :D

Of course, that doesn't matter those that have not will fry, according to many.

Adino
12-15-2007, 03:23 PM
In my over 23 yrs. of pastoring, I have seen some people get baptized and speak in tongues and some get baptized and not speak in tongues.

My observation is that some who haven't spoken in tongues have lived a better Christian life than some who have spoken in tongues. (and, obviously, vice versa) :DLOL... ever the diplomat! I agree!

Adino
12-15-2007, 03:40 PM
If I can keep the focus on Acts 2:38.....

Does the phrase "and ye SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" come as an unconditional promise to those who adhere to the preceding words of the passage?

Have ALL who have repented and been baptized in Jesus Name received the gift of the Holy Ghost?

If we say, NO, then we really do not believe in Acts 2:38 as much as we thought do we?

Steve Epley
12-15-2007, 03:47 PM
Good job, freeatlast. You went right to the point.

100% agree that not everyone they have seen repent and be baptized in Jesus name has spoken in tongues YET Acts 2:38 plainly states that those who repent and are baptized SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Everyone who repents and is baptized in Jesus name SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Since all who've repented and have been baptized in Jesus name have not spoken in tongues, it follows that either:

A) The author was in error and NOT ALL who repent and are baptized in Jesus name SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

or...

B) The author was correct and all who repent and are baptized in Jesus name indeed SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost but this does not mean they will ALL speak in tongues.

I, personally, choose "B" because I believe Acts 2:38.

If the evidential tongues doctrine is true, why have NOT ALL spoken in tongues who have repented and have been baptized in Jesus name?

They have the promise.

Steve Epley
12-15-2007, 03:50 PM
If I can keep the focus on Acts 2:38.....

Does the phrase "and ye SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" come as an unconditional promise to those who adhere to the preceding words of the passage?

Have ALL who have repented and been baptized in Jesus Name received the gift of the Holy Ghost?

If we say, NO, then we really do not believe in Acts 2:38 as much as we thought do we?

The promise is given it doesn't say WHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are only two reasons folks do not recieve the Holy Ghost.
1. They have not repented.
2. They do not believe.

But ALL speak in tongues when they do.

Adino
12-15-2007, 03:57 PM
Adino, if you present that repentance and baptism alone show the infilling of the Holy Ghost, how do you dismiss the argument presented that tongues is evidence of the infilling?BOOMM, I do not equate Spirit filling with Spirit baptism. I do not see anywhere in the Bible where the phrase "filled with the Holy Ghost" speaks of regeneration and/or salvation. Acts 2:38 does not promise that the person will be "filled with the Holy Ghost," it promises that they will receive the "gift of the Holy Ghost" which taken in context is eternal life. Those who turned back to God would receive LIFE. That tongues may be a sign of Spirit "filling" has nothing to do with Acts 2:38.

Likewise, what do you present for evidence of a person having the infilling?There are many manifestations of Spirit "filling". BUT, I would say that evidence of the presence of the indwelling Spirit of LIFE is FAITH. He that believeth is passed from death unto life (John 3:15-16, 36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26).

jrLA
12-15-2007, 04:04 PM
The promise is given it doesn't say WHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are only two reasons folks do not recieve the Holy Ghost.
1. They have not repented.
2. They do not believe.

But ALL speak in tongues when they do.

Thanks Elder....Very well spoken and plain truth!:bells

Adino
12-15-2007, 05:03 PM
The promise is given it doesn't say WHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are only two reasons folks do not recieve the Holy Ghost.
1. They have not repented.
2. They do not believe.

But ALL speak in tongues when they do.Ah.... so the baptism would have been performed on an unrepentant unbelieving sinner meaning that it would have had no effect at all for those who teach baptismal sin remission. Bro. Epley, do you rebaptize everyone who does not immediately speak in tongues upon their baptism? You are telling me the reason they do not speak in tongues is because they are unrepentant and/or unbelieving which would mean their baptism was meaningless. How long do you give a guy before you say there was something wrong with his heart? Can you do me a favor and show me the passage defining an adequate waiting period while the candidate is in spiritual limbo?

If you take the position that the baptism was indeed valid, then you are taking the position that an unrepentant and unbelieving man can have his sins remitted in baptism whether he repents/believes or not. I don't think you believe this.

If you take the position that the baptism was valid and the person did repent and believe, then we are left with another problem....

Colossians 2:12, at the very least, teaches we are risen with Christ at the time of baptism. How can a person be risen with Christ if he does not have the resurrecting Spirit of Life dwelling in him? Even if you say the time between repentance/faith/baptism and tongues speech is relatively short, any time gap begs the question how a person can be risen with Christ without the Spirit. How can this be?

SDG
12-15-2007, 05:44 PM
Ah.... so the baptism would have been performed on an unrepentant unbelieving sinner meaning that it would have had no effect at all for those who teach baptismal sin remission. Bro. Epley, do you rebaptize everyone who does not immediately speak in tongues upon their baptism? You are telling me the reason they do not speak in tongues is because they are unrepentant and/or unbelieving which would mean their baptism was meaningless. How long do you give a guy before you say there was something wrong with his heart? Can you do me a favor and show me the passage defining an adequate waiting period while the candidate is in spiritual limbo?

If you take the position that the baptism was indeed valid, then you are taking the position that an unrepentant and unbelieving man can have his sins remitted in baptism whether he repents/believes or not. I don't think you believe this.

If you take the position that the baptism was valid and the person did repent and believe, then we are left with another problem....

Colossians 2:12, at the very least, teaches we are risen with Christ at the time of baptism. How can a person be risen with Christ if he does not have the resurrecting Spirit of Life dwelling in him? Even if you say the time between repentance/faith/baptism and tongues speech is relatively short, any time gap begs the question how a person can be risen with Christ without the Spirit. How can this be?

Another one of those theological dilemmas added to the mounting stack .

BoredOutOfMyMind
12-15-2007, 05:51 PM
BOOMM, I do not equate Spirit filling with Spirit baptism. I do not see anywhere in the Bible where the phrase "filled with the Holy Ghost" speaks of regeneration and/or salvation. Acts 2:38 does not promise that the person will be "filled with the Holy Ghost," it promises that they will receive the "gift of the Holy Ghost" which taken in context is eternal life. Those who turned back to God would receive LIFE. That tongues may be a sign of Spirit "filling" has nothing to do with Acts 2:38.

There are many manifestations of Spirit "filling". BUT, I would say that evidence of the presence of the indwelling Spirit of LIFE is FAITH. He that believeth is passed from death unto life (John 3:15-16, 36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26).

The devils believe and tremble.


I asekd this in another thread but it fits here- I am curious how you can convince some one to receive The Holy Ghost (Spirit of the Christ) if you don't see it as essential.

Steve Epley
12-15-2007, 05:59 PM
Ah.... so the baptism would have been performed on an unrepentant unbelieving sinner meaning that it would have had no effect at all for those who teach baptismal sin remission. Bro. Epley, do you rebaptize everyone who does not immediately speak in tongues upon their baptism? You are telling me the reason they do not speak in tongues is because they are unrepentant and/or unbelieving which would mean their baptism was meaningless. How long do you give a guy before you say there was something wrong with his heart? Can you do me a favor and show me the passage defining an adequate waiting period while the candidate is in spiritual limbo?

If you take the position that the baptism was indeed valid, then you are taking the position that an unrepentant and unbelieving man can have his sins remitted in baptism whether he repents/believes or not. I don't think you believe this.

If you take the position that the baptism was valid and the person did repent and believe, then we are left with another problem....

Colossians 2:12, at the very least, teaches we are risen with Christ at the time of baptism. How can a person be risen with Christ if he does not have the resurrecting Spirit of Life dwelling in him? Even if you say the time between repentance/faith/baptism and tongues speech is relatively short, any time gap begs the question how a person can be risen with Christ without the Spirit. How can this be?

Adino Firstly I baptize in water HE baptizes in the Holy Ghost. I have never knowingly baptized anyone who had not repented however I am man and NOT God thus He knows I do not. The Promise is recieved by faith Gal.3:14 after repenting and being baptized they must believe the Holy Ghost is promised to them. Heb.11:6 All promises are conditioned on when we recieve them by faith.

mizpeh
12-15-2007, 06:10 PM
If I can keep the focus on Acts 2:38.....

Does the phrase "and ye SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" come as an unconditional promise to those who adhere to the preceding words of the passage?

Have ALL who have repented and been baptized in Jesus Name received the gift of the Holy Ghost?

If we say, NO, then we really do not believe in Acts 2:38 as much as we thought do we?

If we count Peter's words as being inspired of God, then yes, everyone who has repented and been baptized in Jesus name should expect to recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit.

If they have not, then I believe something is hindering their faith.

Truly Blessed
12-15-2007, 07:27 PM
Good job, freeatlast. You went right to the point.

100% agree that not everyone they have seen repent and be baptized in Jesus name has spoken in tongues YET Acts 2:38 plainly states that those who repent and are baptized SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Everyone who repents and is baptized in Jesus name SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Since all who've repented and have been baptized in Jesus name have not spoken in tongues, it follows that either:

A) The author was in error and NOT ALL who repent and are baptized in Jesus name SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

or...

B) The author was correct and all who repent and are baptized in Jesus name indeed SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost but this does not mean they will ALL speak in tongues.

I, personally, choose "B" because I believe Acts 2:38.

If the evidential tongues doctrine is true, why have NOT ALL spoken in tongues who have repented and have been baptized in Jesus name?

I like the Chinese version of Acts 2:38. The word translated "Shall" is "yut ding wui" which means "definitely will". So there is no question as to whether one will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost or not.

Hoovie
12-15-2007, 07:32 PM
I like the Chinese version of Acts 2:38. The word translated "Shall" is "yut ding wui" which means "definitely will". So there is no question as to whether one will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost or not.

Is this then in conflict with those who see the events of "repentance & baptism" and reception of the gift of the Holy Spirit as synonymous events?

Joelel
12-15-2007, 09:09 PM
Can one ultimately be saved without speaking in tongues?

Just curious.

Acts.2:16: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.17: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.

Joelel
12-15-2007, 09:21 PM
How about this:

a. Tongues is the only acceptable initial evidence
b. Speaking in tongues was/is a normal experience (perhaps not the only one) that follows the Holy Spirit baptism.

Of these 2 I would go with b.

Yes amoung pentecostals tongues is the only acceptable initial evidence, the bible don't say tongues is the initial evidence,how about what God said ?

Believe what God says NOT man.God said they would prophesy and have dreams and visions when he pours out his Spirit.Acts.2:16: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.17: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.

Joelel
12-15-2007, 09:30 PM
Good job, freeatlast. You went right to the point.

100% agree that not everyone they have seen repent and be baptized in Jesus name has spoken in tongues YET Acts 2:38 plainly states that those who repent and are baptized SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Everyone who repents and is baptized in Jesus name SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Since all who've repented and have been baptized in Jesus name have not spoken in tongues, it follows that either:

A) The author was in error and NOT ALL who repent and are baptized in Jesus name SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

or...

B) The author was correct and all who repent and are baptized in Jesus name indeed SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost but this does not mean they will ALL speak in tongues.

I, personally, choose "B" because I believe Acts 2:38.

If the evidential tongues doctrine is true, why have NOT ALL spoken in tongues who have repented and have been baptized in Jesus name?

This tongue talking was referred to as prophecy,Why ? Because the people understood what was being said.They were giving prophecy to these people in their own tongue.The following scripture will teach us this.

Acts2:

1: And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2: And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3: And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5: And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6: Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7: And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8: And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9: Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10: Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11: Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12: And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13: Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14: But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

stmatthew
12-15-2007, 09:35 PM
During Phillips revival meeting at Samaria, those present had repented of their sins, and Phillip had baptized them. But the bible states very plainly that they had not received the Holy Ghost.

Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

It was possibly days or even weeks (we do not know for sure how long) before Peter and John arrived and started a Holy Ghost rally.


The above is proof enough that the Holy Ghost is given in Gods time, and not mans. It simply states that it SHALL be given, but that does not mean it is automatic upon repentance and water baptism.

Joelel
12-15-2007, 09:35 PM
Not everybody did, but everybody should.

Why ?

Joelel
12-15-2007, 09:44 PM
Adino, if you present that repentance and baptism alone show the infilling of the Holy Ghost, how do you dismiss the argument presented that tongues is evidence of the infilling? Likewise, what do you present for evidence of a person having the infilling?

Where does the word say tongues is the evidence ? Even Jesus said these signs shall follow.We know all these signs don't follow in everyones lives.A person can speak in tongues and never cast out devils.A person can cast out devils and never speak in tongues.

Different signs follow in each persons life.Mark16:17: And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;18: They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover

Joelel
12-15-2007, 09:50 PM
I don't think Luke was incorrect, is that what you wanted to hear? BTW, I do believe one should speak in tongues for me to actually believe they are filled with the HG.

I think you said it right.We see here the apostles were astonished because God gave the gentiles the Holy Ghost.We see in the scripture that tongues is a sign to the unbelievers.Who was the unbelievers here ? The ones who didn't believe God gave the Holy Ghost to the gentiles,they were unbelievers because they didn't believe God was giving the Holy Ghost to the gentiles.So tongues was a sign to the apostles that God gave the Holy Ghost to the gentiles.You see the apostles were not unbelievers in that they didn't believe in God but they were unbelievers because they didn't believe God was giving the Holy Ghost to the gentiles.So many times people speak in tongues because people don't believe they are filled unless they do speak in tongues.

Acts10:[44] While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
[45] And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[46] For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
[47] Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
[48] And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days

1 Cor.14:22] Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe

Adino
12-15-2007, 09:50 PM
The devils believe and tremble.


I asekd this in another thread but it fits here- I am curious how you can convince some one to receive The Holy Ghost (Spirit of the Christ) if you don't see it as essential.The Spirit of Christ is absolutely essential. Without it we are none of His. Do not equate receiving the living Spirit of Christ with being "filled with the Holy Ghost." I see evidence that the former is salvific, while the latter is a work of the already possessed Spirit in the life of the believer as it fully takes control.

Joelel
12-15-2007, 09:54 PM
In my over 23 yrs. of pastoring, I have seen some people get baptized and speak in tongues and some get baptized and not speak in tongues.

My observation is that some who haven't spoken in tongues have lived a better Christian life than some who have spoken in tongues. (and, obviously, vice versa) :D

Where do you pastor ? If your close I would like to stop by.

Adino
12-15-2007, 09:56 PM
I like the Chinese version of Acts 2:38. The word translated "Shall" is "yut ding wui" which means "definitely will". So there is no question as to whether one will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost or not.Beautiful. Thanks for sharing, Truly Blessed.

Joelel
12-15-2007, 10:00 PM
If I can keep the focus on Acts 2:38.....

Does the phrase "and ye SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" come as an unconditional promise to those who adhere to the preceding words of the passage?

Have ALL who have repented and been baptized in Jesus Name received the gift of the Holy Ghost?

If we say, NO, then we really do not believe in Acts 2:38 as much as we thought do we?

Everyone who is filled with the Holy Ghost will have at least one sign or gift.

Joelel
12-15-2007, 10:06 PM
The promise is given it doesn't say WHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are only two reasons folks do not recieve the Holy Ghost.
1. They have not repented.
2. They do not believe.

But ALL speak in tongues when they do.

They do ? What did God say ? Acts.2:16: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.17: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams

ManOfWord
12-15-2007, 10:08 PM
The devils believe and tremble.


I asekd this in another thread but it fits here- I am curious how you can convince some one to receive The Holy Ghost (Spirit of the Christ) if you don't see it as essential.

I guess I just tell people that it is a gift promised from God and that power comes with it and that it is wonderful. I guess I just don't think that I have to resort to pressure tactics to get people to receive a gift from God. Truth will set people free and not everything has to be salvational to get folks to buy into it.

Where do you pastor ? If your close I would like to stop by.

The church I pastor is in Sandusky, OH. You would be welcome any time!!

www.newlife-church.org

stmatthew
12-15-2007, 10:08 PM
Thet do ? What did God say ? Acts.2:16: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.17: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams

So are you saying that everyone has the Holy Ghost since the verse you have quoted numerous times states that God will pour his spirit out on ALL flesh??

Adino
12-15-2007, 10:11 PM
If we count Peter's words as being inspired of God, then yes, everyone who has repented and been baptized in Jesus name should expect to recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit.

If they have not, then I believe something is hindering their faith.I would agree that everyone WILL receive. In fact, since I believe the man with faith has passed from death to life (John 3:15-16, 36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26), I believe that man has received the "gift of the Holy Ghost" which is eternal life when he repents unto faith (i.e., repents unto life - Acts 11:18). The gift of God is eternal life (Romans 6:23). This was the "promise of the Holy Ghost" Christ received of the Father (Acts 2:33). This was the promise "made unto the fathers" (Acts 13:32-33) which is also to "you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call" (Acts 2:39).

stmatthew
12-15-2007, 10:13 PM
I would agree that everyone WILL receive. In fact, since I believe the man with faith has passed from death to life (John 3:15-16, 36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26), I believe that man has received the "gift of the Holy Ghost" which is eternal life when he repents unto faith (i.e., repents unto life - Acts 11:18). The gift of God is eternal life (Romans 6:23). This was the "promise of the Holy Ghost" Christ received of the Father (Acts 2:33). This was the promise "made unto the fathers" (Acts 13:32-33) which is also to "you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call" (Acts 2:39).



During Phillips revival meeting at Samaria, those present had repented of their sins, and Phillip had baptized them. But the bible states very plainly that they had not received the Holy Ghost.

Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

It was possibly days or even weeks (we do not know for sure how long) before Peter and John arrived and started a Holy Ghost rally.


The above is proof enough that the Holy Ghost is given in Gods time, and not mans. It simply states that it SHALL be given, but that does not mean it is automatic upon repentance and water baptism.

Bump

Joelel
12-15-2007, 10:20 PM
BOOMM, I do not equate Spirit filling with Spirit baptism. I do not see anywhere in the Bible where the phrase "filled with the Holy Ghost" speaks of regeneration and/or salvation. Acts 2:38 does not promise that the person will be "filled with the Holy Ghost," it promises that they will receive the "gift of the Holy Ghost" which taken in context is eternal life. Those who turned back to God would receive LIFE. That tongues may be a sign of Spirit "filling" has nothing to do with Acts 2:38.

There are many manifestations of Spirit "filling". BUT, I would say that evidence of the presence of the indwelling Spirit of LIFE is FAITH. He that believeth is passed from death unto life (John 3:15-16, 36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26).


Jesus told them here in the first chapter 5:ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence,so they obeyed and was filled as we see in the second chapter,4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost.We see very clear baptized in the Holy Ghost and filled with the Holy Ghost is the same thing.

Acts1:1: The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2: Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5: For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6: When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7: And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9: And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10: And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11: Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12: Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
13: And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
14: These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
15: And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
16: Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17: For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18: Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19: And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
20: For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
21: Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22: Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
23: And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24: And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25: That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26: And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

2: 1: And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2: And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3: And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance

Adino
12-15-2007, 10:33 PM
BumpYour answer is in verse 16 which says the Spirit had not "fallen" upon them. The Spirit "fell" on these of Samaria in a non-saving way as it "fell" on prophets in the OT (Ezekiel 11:5). The Spirit "fell on," "came on," and "filled" people in the NT as it "fell on," "came on," and "filled" prophets in the OT. The leaders of Jerusalem had to come offer the right hand of fellowship with the half-breed Samarians because the full-blooded Jews would not have accepted them into the body had they not. The bestowal of Spiritual gifts to the saved believers of Samaria only stamped God's approval on them as well. Who then could argue that they were to be allowed into the fold? Much like Cornelius in Acts 10.

Luke was using terms connected to Spirit manifestation in the OT to follow the manifestations of the Spirit as the signs and wonders confirmed the word in the NT (Mark 16:20), very likely because he knew his audience would recognize them as such. He was following the expansion of the Church by pointing out the signs and wonders which expanded with it. These signs and wonders had nothing to do with salvation. They were only indicative of the growing Church of God.

Joelel
12-15-2007, 10:40 PM
The Spirit of Christ is absolutely essential. Without it we are none of His. Do not equate receiving the living Spirit of Christ with being "filled with the Holy Ghost." I see evidence that the former is salvific, while the latter is a work of the already possessed Spirit in the life of the believer as it fully takes control.

The word Christ means anoint.Christ is not part of Jesus name.They called him Jesus Christ or Jesus anointed.Jesus was anointed of the Holy Ghost.So,the Holy Ghost in us anoints us.If we are filled with the Holy Ghost we are anointed and if we are not filled we are not anointed.Acts.10
[38] How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Joelel
12-15-2007, 10:44 PM
I guess I just tell people that it is a gift promised from God and that power comes with it and that it is wonderful. I guess I just don't think that I have to resort to pressure tactics to get people to receive a gift from God. Truth will set people free and not everything has to be salvational to get folks to buy into it.



The church I pastor is in Sandusky, OH. You would be welcome any time!!

www.newlife-church.org

Long way off,I'm in Texas.Use to live in Buffalo,New York

stmatthew
12-15-2007, 10:50 PM
Your answer is in verse 16 which says the Spirit had not "fallen" upon them. The Spirit "fell" on these of Samaria in a non-saving way as it "fell" on prophets in the OT (Ezekiel 11:5). The Spirit "fell on," "came on," and "filled" people in the NT as it "fell on," "came on," and "filled" prophets in the OT. The leaders of Jerusalem had to come offer the right hand of fellowship with the half-breed Samarians because the full-blooded Jews would not have accepted them into the body had they not. The bestowal of Spiritual gifts to the saved believers of Samaria only stamped God's approval on them as well. Who then could argue that they were to be allowed into the fold? Much like Cornelius in Acts 10.

Luke was using terms connected to Spirit manifestation in the OT to follow the manifestations of the Spirit as the signs and wonders confirmed the word in the NT (Mark 16:20), very likely because he knew his audience would recognize them as such. He was following the expansion of the Church by pointing out the signs and wonders which expanded with it. These signs and wonders had nothing to do with salvation. They were only indicative of the growing Church of God.


That is the biggest bunch of garbage I have seen in a while. Don't try confusing this issue by saying some mumbo jumbo about the Holy Ghost falling on them being OT. The Holy Ghost fell on the day of Pentecost. It was a New Birth experience.

The FACTS are as follows:

- Phillip preached on things that pertained to the Kingdom of God.
- He must have mentioned water baptism in Jesus name during his discourse
- The folks must have repented, and submitted to water baptism
- They had not received the Holy Ghost until Peter and John came


Now the facts are that they had NOT RECEIVED the Holy Ghost, though they had repented and been water baptized. Again, they had not received the Promise yet. This answers your initial question.

Joelel
12-15-2007, 10:53 PM
So are you saying that everyone has the Holy Ghost since the verse you have quoted numerous times states that God will pour his spirit out on ALL flesh??

No,what I'm saying is on the day of pentecost the about 120 that were filled with the Holy Ghost were giving prophecy to the ones who understood in their own tongue.That is why they spoke in tongues,because God was speaking to them.The tongue talking was referred to as prophecy.

Acts, chapter 2
1: And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2: And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3: And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5: And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6: Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7: And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8: And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9: Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10: Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11: Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12: And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13: Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14: But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy

Adino
12-15-2007, 10:54 PM
Jesus told them here in the first chapter 5:ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence,so they obeyed and was filled as we see in the second chapter,4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost.We see very clear baptized in the Holy Ghost and filled with the Holy Ghost is the same thing.To be filled with the Spirit is to be fully controlled by the Spirit (Ephesians 5:18). Nowhere in the NT is the phrase "filled with the Holy Ghost" used to reference a saving work of God.

The phrase is used of John the baptist in Luke 1:15, his mother Elisabeth in Luke 1:41, his father Zacharias in Luke 1:67, and of a group of men in Acts 4:31 who were being "filled with the Holy Ghost" a second time, for these were the same "filled with the Holy Ghost" in Acts 2:4. I doubt you will say they were made regenerate again, so why should we say the author, who did not intend the phrase to refer to regeneration in any other passage, uses it to mean regeneration in Acts 2:4?

Luke uses the term "filled with the Holy Ghost" in reference to special empowerment in Luke 1:15, 41, 67 and in Acts 4:31. I think the evidence is clear it should be understood in the same fashion in Acts 2:4.

It is certainly possible that a man baptized (or indwelt) with the Spirit can be immediately fully controlled (i.e., "filled") by that same Spirit to the point of manifestation, though this should certainly not be considered a normative by any means.

Adino
12-15-2007, 11:10 PM
That is the biggest bunch of garbage I have seen in a while. Don't try confusing this issue by saying some mumbo jumbo about the Holy Ghost falling on them being OT. The Holy Ghost fell on the day of Pentecost. It was a New Birth experience.

The FACTS are as follows:

- Phillip preached on things that pertained to the Kingdom of God.
- He must have mentioned water baptism in Jesus name during his discourse
- The folks must have repented, and submitted to water baptism
- They had not received the Holy Ghost until Peter and John came


Now the facts are that they had NOT RECEIVED the Holy Ghost, though they had repented and been water baptized. Again, they had not received the Promise yet. This answers your initial question.Ignoring the language of Luke is your prerogative, Bro.. Evidence is strong that those of Samaria were not receiving the indwelling Spirit, but an impartation of some spiritual gift as the elders came to lay hands on them (1Timothy 4:14; Romans 1:11). It was this ability to impart which Simon wished to purchase from the elders. The man who RECEIVES the Spirit at faith subsequently RECEIVES blessings from that self-same Spirit as God sees fit.

Accept it or not, there are alternative plausible ways of interpreting the passages you have grown accustomed to viewing through a lens handed down to you from 20th preachers in early American pentecostalism.

BoredOutOfMyMind
12-15-2007, 11:12 PM
Jesus told them here in the first chapter 5:ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence,so they obeyed and was filled as we see in the second chapter,4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost.We see very clear baptized in the Holy Ghost and filled with the Holy Ghost is the same thing.

They tarried 10 days. They did not tarry in Acts 8 and Simon must have seen something to KNOW they had received the Holy Ghost. They did not tarry in Acts 10, they received the Holy Ghost and spoke with tongues. In Acts 19, well what do you know, men who were repentant and were baptized, were re-baptized and well what do you know- they received the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues.

My Step-Father tarried for years and would get in the altar praying and shake his head no. He would then go home and sometimes leave bruises on the family. Bro Epley is right, he did not receive the Holy Ghost, for he was not repentant. Mom finally threw the abusive bum out.

stmatthew
12-15-2007, 11:15 PM
Ignoring the language of Luke is your prerogative, Bro.. Evidence is strong that those of Samaria were not receiving the indwelling Spirit, but an impartation of some spiritual gift as the elders came to lay hands on them (1Timothy 4:14; Romans 1:11). It was this ability to impart which Simon wished to purchase from the elders. The man who RECEIVES the Spirit at faith subsequently RECEIVES blessings from that self-same Spirit as God sees fit.

Accept it or not, there are alternative plausible ways of interpreting the passages you have grown accustomed to viewing through a lens handed down to you from 20th preachers in early American pentecostalism.

It is not I that is ignoring what is plainly stated. You have read into this something that is not there. How many ways can one view it when it plainly states that the Holy Ghost had not fallen on them, but then goes on to clarify that after prayer the RECEIVED the Holy Ghost.

Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

I am sorry, but either they didn't have it, and received it, or they didn't have it, and received it.

Adino
12-15-2007, 11:26 PM
It is not I that is ignoring what is plainly stated. You have read into this something that is not there. How many ways can one view it when it plainly states that the Holy Ghost had not fallen on them, but then goes on to clarify that after prayer the RECEIVED the Holy Ghost.

Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

I am sorry, but either they didn't have it, and received it, or they didn't have it, and received it.What they did not have was whatever operation of the Spirit which takes place when the Spirit "falls". The Spirit fell, came, and filled men of the OT as well. These instances were not regenerative what makes you think they are here?

BoredOutOfMyMind
12-15-2007, 11:28 PM
What they did not have was whatever operation of the Spirit which takes place when the Spirit "falls". The Spirit fell, came, and filled men of the OT as well. These instances were not regenerative what makes you think they are here?

<Game Show Buzzer here for WRONG answer>

John 7:37-39

37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Joelel
12-15-2007, 11:30 PM
That is the biggest bunch of garbage I have seen in a while. Don't try confusing this issue by saying some mumbo jumbo about the Holy Ghost falling on them being OT. The Holy Ghost fell on the day of Pentecost. It was a New Birth experience.

The FACTS are as follows:

- Phillip preached on things that pertained to the Kingdom of God.
- He must have mentioned water baptism in Jesus name during his discourse
- The folks must have repented, and submitted to water baptism
- They had not received the Holy Ghost until Peter and John came


Now the facts are that they had NOT RECEIVED the Holy Ghost, though they had repented and been water baptized. Again, they had not received the Promise yet. This answers your initial question.

The word believe has different depth in meaning.Yes they believed and was not filled but other scripture teaches as many that believe is born of God.

1John.5
[1] Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

stmatthew
12-15-2007, 11:30 PM
What they did not have was whatever operation of the Spirit which takes place when the Spirit "falls". The Spirit fell, came, and filled men of the OT as well. These instances were not regenerative what makes you think they are here?

We are not talking about OT. We are talking about NT. They had not received the Spirit until Peter and John came. At the laying on of hands, they received the Spirit. Why are you intent on making this say something it is not saying.

Very plain scripture that one would have to stumble over not to understand it.

They had not received the Holy Ghost until Peter and John came and prayed for them.

Joelel
12-16-2007, 01:45 AM
To be filled with the Spirit is to be fully controlled by the Spirit (Ephesians 5:18). Nowhere in the NT is the phrase "filled with the Holy Ghost" used to reference a saving work of God.

The phrase is used of John the baptist in Luke 1:15, his mother Elisabeth in Luke 1:41, his father Zacharias in Luke 1:67, and of a group of men in Acts 4:31 who were being "filled with the Holy Ghost" a second time, for these were the same "filled with the Holy Ghost" in Acts 2:4. I doubt you will say they were made regenerate again, so why should we say the author, who did not intend the phrase to refer to regeneration in any other passage, uses it to mean regeneration in Acts 2:4?

Luke uses the term "filled with the Holy Ghost" in reference to special empowerment in Luke 1:15, 41, 67 and in Acts 4:31. I think the evidence is clear it should be understood in the same fashion in Acts 2:4.

It is certainly possible that a man baptized (or indwelt) with the Spirit can be immediately fully controlled (i.e., "filled") by that same Spirit to the point of manifestation, though this should certainly not be considered a normative by any means.

There is a regeneration that take place during a persons whole life,but I showed you very clearly where being baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost is the same.Every step we take in obeying God's word regenerates us.Jesus is the word of God and the word or Jesus regenerates us.The word born means regenerate.The more truth we receive and obey,the more we are filled with the Holy Ghost.

2Cor.9
[10] Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;)
John.3
[30] He must increase, but I must decrease.

The reason many people can't stop sinning is because they are not getting food of truth.

1 John003:009Whosoever is born (regenerated)of God doth not commit sin; for his seed (Word) remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born(regenerated) of God

Eph.5:25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;5:26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing (regeneration)of water by the word,5:27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

You must be born (regenerated) of the truth of the word.Only the truth can regenerate you.

1 John002:005 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected (full grown) hereby know we that we are in him

1 John004:007Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born (regenerated) of God (Word,Truth), and knoweth God. 004:008He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Believe means to believe his truth and obey it.

1 John005:001 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born (regenerated)of God:and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.005:002By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep (obey) his commandments.

1 John005:018 We know that whosoever is born of God (word,Truth) sinneth not (by habit); but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

John6:48. I am that bread (word ,Truth) of life.49. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.50. This is the bread (word,Truth) which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

53. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh (word) of the Son of man, and drink his blood (Spirit), ye have no life in you

Joelel
12-16-2007, 01:56 AM
They tarried 10 days. They did not tarry in Acts 8 and Simon must have seen something to KNOW they had received the Holy Ghost. They did not tarry in Acts 10, they received the Holy Ghost and spoke with tongues. In Acts 19, well what do you know, men who were repentant and were baptized, were re-baptized and well what do you know- they received the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues.

My Step-Father tarried for years and would get in the altar praying and shake his head no. He would then go home and sometimes leave bruises on the family. Bro Epley is right, he did not receive the Holy Ghost, for he was not repentant. Mom finally threw the abusive bum out.

The only reason they terried untill the day of pentecost is because the Holy Ghost was not sent to where it was given to everyone yet.The point I was making is,being baptized in the Holy Ghost and filled is the same and that took place on the day of pentecost,Acts 2:1-

Joelel
12-16-2007, 02:02 AM
What they did not have was whatever operation of the Spirit which takes place when the Spirit "falls". The Spirit fell, came, and filled men of the OT as well. These instances were not regenerative what makes you think they are here?

The old testament prophets were not filled with the Holy Ghost,it just fell on them from time to time.

mizpeh
12-16-2007, 06:53 AM
To be filled with the Spirit is to be fully controlled by the Spirit (Ephesians 5:18).
How do you come to that conclusion by that one verse?


Nowhere in the NT is the phrase "filled with the Holy Ghost" used to reference a saving work of God.Romans 8:9-11 teaches us that without the Spirit of Christ dwelling within us, we do not belong to Christ. Jesus stated in John 3:5 that we must be born again of the water and the Spirit to enter into the kingdom of God. We are not born with the Spirit of God within us like John the Baptist so somewhere along the line there is a point in time in which the Holy Spirit enters us or fills us or comes to dwell within us. It first happened in new convenant times in Acts 2:4 and it has continued to happen in a like manner to all who come to Christ since that time. Being baptized in the Holy Spirit is the same as being filled with the Spirit or the Spirit coming upon someone, or falling on someone, or being poured out on someone. These terms from what I can see in the NT are the same when the Spirit dwells a person for the first time.

We need and must have this 'filling with the Holy Ghost' to save us.

The phrase is used of John the baptist in Luke 1:15, his mother Elisabeth in Luke 1:41, his father Zacharias in Luke 1:67, and of a group of men in Acts 4:31 who were being "filled with the Holy Ghost" a second time, for these were the same "filled with the Holy Ghost" in Acts 2:4. I doubt you will say they were made regenerate again, so why should we say the author, who did not intend the phrase to refer to regeneration in any other passage, uses it to mean regeneration in Acts 2:4?There were many Jewish folks in the OT who were filled with the Spirit and it was manifested for the most part by prophecy. Not all of God's people were filled with the Spirit under the Old covenant although Moses lamented this fact. I tend to think that it was not a temporary manifestation for those who had the Spirit in the OT for David prayed "take not thy Holy Spirit from me'. And the gifts and calling of God are without repentance which is written in Romans (NT) but is directed to the Jewish people for they will always be the chosen of God and the natural branches.

The distinction I believe the Bible makes is that of the INITIAL infilling. Acts 2:4 is the initial infilling of the Spirit for the disciples that were in the house in Jerusalem when the Holy Spirit 'fell' on them. This 'infilling' is now given to all men that call upon the Lord. It is part of the new covenant experience and is no longer limited to certain ones that the Lord choses as He did under the old covenant but it is for whosoever wants to drink of the living waters of life.

Luke uses the term "filled with the Holy Ghost" in reference to special empowerment in Luke 1:15, 41, 67 and in Acts 4:31. I think the evidence is clear it should be understood in the same fashion in Acts 2:4.I agree with your point about special empowerment or anointing that God provides at various times as well.

To sum this up I find two meanings to 'filled with the Spirit'.

1) The initial indwelling of the Spirit into a believer when it is considered part of regeneration or being born again.
2) An added anointing for a specific reason...such as Stephen at his stoning, or as a blessing in which case these are not regenerative.

Adino
12-16-2007, 09:30 AM
How do you come to that conclusion by that one verse?

I guess, in a similar way others have. For example, commenting on Ephesians 5:18... Conversely, the positive command is, Be filled with the Spirit. Thus a believer, rather than controlling himself, is controlled by the Holy Spirit. It may be more accurate to say that the Holy Spirit is the “Agent” of the filling (cf. Gal. 5:16) and Christ is the Content of the filling (Col. 3:15). Thus in this relationship, as a believer is yielded to the Lord and controlled by Him, he increasingly manifests the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23). The Spirit’s indwelling (John 7:37-39; 14:17; Rom. 5:5; 8:9; 1 Cor. 2:12; 6:19-20; 1 John 3:24; 4:13), sealing (2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13; 4:30), and baptism (1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27) occur at the time of regeneration and thus are not commanded. However, believers are commanded to be filled constantly with the Holy Spirit. Each Christian has all the Spirit, but the command here is that the Spirit have all of him. The wise walk, then, is one that is characterized by the Holy Spirit’s control.(Walvoord, John F., and Zuck, Roy B., The Bible Knowledge Commentary, [Wheaton, Illinois: Scripture Press Publications, Inc.] 1983, 1985.)


Romans 8:9-11 teaches us that without the Spirit of Christ dwelling within us, we do not belong to Christ. Jesus stated in John 3:5 that we must be born again of the water and the Spirit to enter into the kingdom of God. We are not born with the Spirit of God within us like John the Baptist so somewhere along the line there is a point in time in which the Holy Spirit enters us....... There is a point in time at which our heart is quickened from death to life. There is a point in time at which the Spirit of God "gives birth" to life in the heart of man. The spirit of man is born of the Spirit of God.

....or fills us or comes to dwell within us. It first happened in new convenant times in Acts 2:4 and it has continued to happen in a like manner to all who come to Christ since that time.The Spirit of God "came on" Samson repeatedly in the OT. You must concede that there is a work of the Spirit which is NON-REGENERATIVE. Yes (it can be argued), we today have the opportunity to be INDWELT by the Spirit of God in a way not experienced by OT believers. BUT, it must be understood that the Spirit which now abides in us can work FROM WITHIN us in NON-REGENERATIVE ways. In fact, this whole issue is rather silly because even those who teach evidential tongues must concede that the Spirit which enables the miracle of tongues must FIRST indwell the believer. Cause and effect. The Spirit which indwells performs ANOTHER work by overwhelming the individual to the point of external manifestation ... such as tongues.


Being baptized in the Holy Spirit is the same as being filled with the Spirit or the Spirit coming upon someone, or falling on someone, or being poured out on someone. These terms from what I can see in the NT are the same when the Spirit dwells a person for the first time. I disagree. It can be argued that Spirit baptism doesn't even take place on an individual basis but was the phrase used of the Spirit's initial "giving" to mankind. Any other time it appears in the NT, it appears to show the extent of the "original" baptism given to the world. Pentecostals, on the other hand, will argue Spirit baptism does take place on an individual basis at the time of conversion, but subsequent "fillings" follow in the life of the believer. In fact, I believe a confusion of these terms in American Pentecostalism eventually helped Haywood to draw tongues into the conversion experience.

R.A. Torrey, had much to do with confusing the terms early on....

"The late Dr. Ernest M. Wadsworth, for many years director of the Great Commission Prayer League, once shared a telling instance of the Torrey problem which illustrates the importance of precision in the use of doctrinal terms, especially in public ministry."

"It was a well-known fact that Dr. Torrey used the terms 'baptism' and 'filling with the Spirit' very loosely, and he had been widely quoted by some of the most erratic of the cultists as supporting their position, which led to great excesses in practice.

"At the Montrose Bible Conference, Dr. W. P. White, founder of The Biblical Seminary in New York, was on the platform as co-speaker with Dr. Torrey. When the latter said, 'What we all need tonight is a new baptism of the Holy Spirit!' Dr. White said, in a stage whisper, 'You mean "filling," do you not, Dr. Torrey?' The preacher turned on him and replied, 'What difference does it make how I say it? These men know what I mean.'

"After the meeting they went to Torrey Lodge, and soon Dr. Torrey called Dr. White into his room and thanked him for what he had whispered to him at the meeting, acknowledging that it was best to speak of the things of the Spirit in the correct terms.

"He told Dr. White that he regretted that certain Pentecostal leaders quoted him as they did, since he did not believe their teaching on the Person and work of the Holy Spirit. He admitted that he used the terms 'baptism' and 'filling' with the Spirit synonymously, but he did not think it best to call attention publicly to his mistake, and did not see the necessity for correcting the word 'baptism' in his books--even though he himself used the scriptural term thereafter." Excerpt from a paper written by Miles J. Stanford..... ( http://withchrist.org/MJS/torrey.htm ) Torrey's influence was great and his damage unknowable.

Haywood later reconnected Spirit baptism to being born of God at conversion, but instead of reinstating the distinction between Spirit baptism and Spirit filling he simply drew BOTH terms into the conversion experience. Since he continued to connect Spirit "filling" with Spirit "baptism" he connected BOTH to salvation when he reconnected Spirit "baptism" to Spirit "BIRTH." Ewart approached the issue from another way but I believe this confusion of terms came into play with Haywood. Nowhere prior to these men was it taught that a tongues experience was part of conversion.


We need and must have this 'filling with the Holy Ghost' to save us.I disagree. Being "filled with the Holy Ghost" is a NON-REGENERATIVE work of the Spirit in the life of the indwelt believer.

To sum this up I find two meanings to 'filled with the Spirit'.

1) The initial indwelling of the Spirit into a believer when it is considered part of regeneration or being born again.
2) An added anointing for a specific reason...such as Stephen at his stoning, or as a blessing in which case these are not regenerative.
Rather convenient having dual definitions, don't you think?

Adino
12-16-2007, 10:05 AM
The old testament prophets were not filled with the Holy Ghost,it just fell on them from time to time.Exodus 31:1-3....And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: 3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God....

Exodus 35:30-31....And Moses said unto the children of Israel, See, the LORD hath called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah; 31 And he hath filled him with the spirit of God....

People were, indeed, "filled" with the Spirit in the OT. A non-regenerative work of the Spirit.

Adino
12-16-2007, 10:33 AM
Back to the original issue:

I think, because of Haywood's ultimate influence on Oneness Pentecostal soteriology, many, following his lead, have mistakenly drawn a non-regenerative work of the Spirit into Acts 2:38. Whereas the passage speaks of the gift of eternal life, Haywood mistakenly drew non-regenerative "fillings" into the conversion equation. "Fillings" which have nothing to do with the reception of eternal life were forced into the salvation experience.

I should add here that Haywood mistakingly thought the word "power" [exousia] in John 1:12-13 had the same meaning as the word "power" [dunamis] in Acts 1:8. This error made him completely miss the point that those of John 1:12-13 who had simply received Christ by faith were those who had been born of God and given the privilege of sonship. He then went on to incorrectly connect the "dunamis" (power) to conversion.

While it is absolutely true that ALL who repent and are baptized in Jesus name DO receive the gift of eternal life..... NOT ALL who repent and are baptized in Jesus name receive a non-regenerative "filling" resulting in tongues speech.

Joelel
12-16-2007, 12:04 PM
Exodus 31:1-3....And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: 3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God....

Exodus 35:30-31....And Moses said unto the children of Israel, See, the LORD hath called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah; 31 And he hath filled him with the spirit of God....

People were, indeed, "filled" with the Spirit in the OT. A non-regenerative work of the Spirit.

I said the Holy Ghost only fell on the old testament prophets.Is there any scripture where the prophets were filled ? Was Ezek. filled ? Ezek.11
[5] And the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and said unto me, Speak; Thus saith the LORD; Thus have ye said, O house of Israel: for I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them.

Fiyahstarter
12-16-2007, 12:27 PM
The day I received Christ, I was sitting in a pew at a Pentecostal church, when HE knocked at my heart once, twice, and then a third and final time. I then stepped out of my pew toward the altar in submission to his call, and it was AT THAT MOMENT that I felt a mighty influx of breath into my being. I personally know this moment to be my consummation with Christ . . . although I did not speak in tongues that day.

However, I did later speak in tongues (months later)... and also have been used of Him in healings and in discernment... but in my heart I know that first encounter ... the day I stepped out of that pew... is without a doubt the day I became His.

ManOfWord
12-16-2007, 02:56 PM
The day I received Christ, I was sitting in a pew at a Pentecostal church, when HE knocked at my heart once, twice, and then a third and final time. I then stepped out of my pew toward the altar in submission to his call, and it was AT THAT MOMENT that I felt a mighty influx of breath into my being. I personally know this moment to be my consummation with Christ . . . although I did not speak in tongues that day.

However, I did later speak in tongues (months later)... and also have been used of Him in healings and in discernment... but in my heart I know that first encounter ... the day I stepped out of that pew... is without a doubt the day I became His.

For me, the first time I went to the altar was the first time I really surrendered my life completely to Jesus Christ. That night I was baptized. It was an awesome experience! I did not speak in tongues until 3 mos after that. However, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if the rapture had taken place or I had died, I would have gone to heaven! There is absolutely no question in my mind whatsoever! :D

Fiyahstarter
12-16-2007, 05:18 PM
For me, the first time I went to the altar was the first time I really surrendered my life completely to Jesus Christ. That night I was baptized. It was an awesome experience! I did not speak in tongues until 3 mos after that. However, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if the rapture had taken place or I had died, I would have gone to heaven! There is absolutely no question in my mind whatsoever! :D

Bingo!

Scott Hutchinson
12-16-2007, 08:50 PM
How can one be regenerate without having the Holy Ghost, now where does the bible teach a difference between receiving and be baptized with the Holy Ghost ?

Hoovie
12-16-2007, 09:28 PM
I was listening to folks pray on a "forbidden" tape player, and as I was compelled to pray with them Jesus came into my heart - 23 years ago!

Adino
12-17-2007, 05:18 AM
How can one be regenerate without having the Holy Ghost, now where does the bible teach a difference between receiving and be baptized with the Holy Ghost ?You cannot be regenerate without the Spirit. The Spirit quickens. He that believes is passed from death to life (John 3:15-16, 36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26).

If you require a sign for Spirit reception.... you do not have it by faith.

Adino
12-17-2007, 08:52 PM
My first post with my new laptop and wireless internet connection....... COOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hoovie
12-17-2007, 08:56 PM
My first post with my new laptop and wireless internet connection....... COOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great! I am going to tap your connection and post as a liberal using your name. :santathumb

Just watch me!

Adino
12-17-2007, 09:41 PM
Hey, I peeked at the link at the bottom of your post.

Two things:

1) My wife and I had dinner in Ephrata, Pennsylvania with an Old Order River Brethren family during our honeymoon trip back in 1987. It was a lot of fun.

2) My kids love the chimney sweeper's song and dance in Mary Poppins!

Hoovie
12-17-2007, 11:41 PM
Hey, I peeked at the link at the bottom of your post.

Two things:

1) My wife and I had dinner in Ephrata, Pennsylvania with an Old Order River Brethren family during our honeymoon trip back in 1987. It was a lot of fun.

2) My kids love the chimney sweeper's song and dance in Mary Poppins!

I was born just a few miles from Ephrata - in Stevens. Old Order River Brethren were our anabaptist brothers - sort of "separate but equal".:winkgrin


A Sweep is as lucky as lucky can be...!

"Lucky Sweep" is the name of my company. :)