PDA

View Full Version : Saved Without A Pastor??


Pages : [1] 2

Harmony
12-15-2007, 02:02 PM
Can a person be saved without a Pastor?

I have been reading the threads on salvation that have been up lately and I just want to scream....You can go thru every step that is out there and your salvation is still unsure......There is really know way to know if you are saved or not.

I am only going off my experience in attending a UPC church all of my life. Absolute submission to the Pastor was KEY to your salvation. If you felt God leading you in a certain way on a "matter" you still needed to have the approval of the Pastor, if they didn't think it was right they expected you to follow there opinion and yes, your salvation was at stake....there are so many weird mind games that were played....and they are all tied into salvation, if you don't adhere to what they wanted then you are in rebellion, and we know that nobody will make it to heaven in a rebellious state!

I have been away from that influence for several years. I have a real concern for family that is still in the church. I am very aware of the "Godly Fear" they live in. They are not sure of there salvation. They don't think on thier own....they think through a filter of "What would my pastor think"..not what would God think....

BrotherEastman
12-15-2007, 02:47 PM
Can a person be saved without a Pastor?

I have been reading the threads on salvation that have been up lately and I just want to scream....You can go thru every step that is out there and your salvation is still unsure......There is really know way to know if you are saved or not.

I am only going off my experience in attending a UPC church all of my life. Absolute submission to the Pastor was KEY to your salvation. If you felt God leading you in a certain way on a "matter" you still needed to have the approval of the Pastor, if they didn't think it was right they expected you to follow there opinion and yes, your salvation was at stake....there are so many weird mind games that were played....and they are all tied into salvation, if you don't adhere to what they wanted then you are in rebellion, and we know that nobody will make it to heaven in a rebellious state!

I have been away from that influence for several years. I have a real concern for family that is still in the church. I am very aware of the "Godly Fear" they live in. They are not sure of there salvation. They don't think on thier own....they think through a filter of "What would my pastor think"..not what would God think....
I think we all need a pastor, just not to that extent.

Harmony
12-15-2007, 03:21 PM
I think we all need a pastor, just not to that extent.

Do you think you need a pastor to maintiain your salvation?

OneAccord
12-15-2007, 03:50 PM
Our salvation is based on His Grace. Nothing more, nothing less. I can do nothing to obtain my salvation. I can maintain my salvation by following the principles set forth in the Word of God. I can maintain my salvation by keeping myself unspotted from the world and by following the leadership of the Holy Spirit.

That being said... God placed certain ministries in the church that are designed to give us teaching to help us maintain our salvation. Those 5 ministries are listed in Eph 4 and were instituted by God for the reasons given in that same chapter. Those ministries, including that of "pastor", are for our benefit. We are perfected, not by the pastor or the evangelist, but by the Truth they teach. Remember it is the Truth that sets us free. The Body of Christ is edified, again, not by the teacher or prophet, but by the Word they bring. Any preacher, Pastor, Evangelist or District Superintendent that is worth a plug nickle will tell you they are mere servants to the Church. They are but Messengers. It is not THEY THEMSELVES who do anything...it is the Word of God they teach that benefits us. If a pastor says we can't be saved without them , then he no pastor at all. He is a Wolf in Sheeps Clothing. A lord over God's heritage. A real, God-ordained pastor won't tell you that. He will only tell you that you can not be saved without Jesus. He will point you to the Word.

We need the 5 fold ministry as never before. We need the pastor to help to strengthen our relationship with the Lord. I can't say we'd be lost without a pastor... but I can say this...our walk with the Lord would be a lot rougher... a lot more treacherous, if not for the ministry of the Pastor, as well as the other ministry gifts.

What the present day church needs to hear is the call of the Prophet. Not these self-appointed Kim Clements, but real God called prophets whose message agrees with what the Spirit is saying in these last days.

Steve Epley
12-15-2007, 03:53 PM
ALL pastors are hinderances and one should never have a pastor they will only abuse you and you will get hurt. Instead get your instructions from forum gurus that have never built a church.

nahkoe
12-15-2007, 04:14 PM
ALL pastors are hinderances and one should never have a pastor they will only abuse you and you will get hurt. Instead get your instructions from forum gurus that have never built a church.

:spirit

nahkoe
12-15-2007, 04:17 PM
We need the 5 fold ministry as never before. We need the pastor to help to strengthen our relationship with the Lord. I can't say we'd be lost without a pastor... but I can say this...our walk with the Lord would be a lot rougher... a lot more treacherous, if not for the ministry of the Pastor, as well as the other ministry gifts.

I've been trying to answer this all day (lol..ok my sense of time is warped, I have NO demands on my time today and it's showing I guess) and this comes about as close to what I've been trying to say as anything I've typed yet.

You don't need a pastor to be saved. You need Jesus. But, you need support and accountability. I know some who have managed to live for God for a time without a pastor or a church. I didn't do such a good job of that though. I'll never take for granted the keeping power of a pastor and a church family. But I don't look to my pastor for salvation either.

OneAccord
12-15-2007, 04:36 PM
The pastor, like all ministries, is nothing more than a maintenance man. They didn't save us, nor can they keep us saved. All they do is provide us with the tools (The Word) to help us stay in God's Grace. They are, in fact, invaluable in keeping us running!

pelathais
12-15-2007, 04:41 PM
Can a person be saved without a Pastor?

I have been reading the threads on salvation that have been up lately and I just want to scream....You can go thru every step that is out there and your salvation is still unsure......There is really know way to know if you are saved or not.
Hi Harmony. You really bring up some important points. That nagging doubt about one's own salvation and the doubts about the salvation of others still plagues Christian fellowship after 2,000 years.

From reading the history of Charles Parham, the man who introduced the teaching of "Holy Ghost baptism evidenced by speaking in other tongues..." I'm getting the impression that he was plagued by many of the same questions. This is why he spent years trying to get the "evidence" to operate.

I am only going off my experience in attending a UPC church all of my life. Absolute submission to the Pastor was KEY to your salvation. If you felt God leading you in a certain way on a "matter" you still needed to have the approval of the Pastor, if they didn't think it was right they expected you to follow there opinion and yes, your salvation was at stake....there are so many weird mind games that were played....and they are all tied into salvation, if you don't adhere to what they wanted then you are in rebellion, and we know that nobody will make it to heaven in a rebellious state!
Putting such confidence in one man is often a formula for error. I too was brought up with that mind set. After high school when I wanted to go to college, I asked my pastor about it. He angrily denounced college as a breeding ground for "secular humanism." So I didn't go to college.

I met K.H., the president of an Apostolic Bible school and I was determined then to go to CLC. When I brought the idea to my pastor, he at first approved and then after consulting with some of his friends he came back and told me, "That K.H. has a real problem with compromise..." so I went to another, struggling Bible School. That school closed down at least twice in the one year that I was there and the president got tangled up in a fraud indictment (he was later cleared).

The funny thing is; over the years, with just one exception, everyone else who came out of the same church went to CLC with the pastor's blessing! And none of them really sought his advice, they just told him where they wanted to go and had him sign the approval. And, almost all of that same pastor's children went on to secular colleges, a couple getting advanced degrees. I asked his son about it once and he rather sympathetically told me, (words to the effect) "You've got to be responsible for your own future."

So, "playing by the rules" cost me when it came to obedience to the pastor. Many of our pastors just aren't trained or educated. We run some terrible risks by listening to them and taking their advice at times.

I have been away from that influence for several years. I have a real concern for family that is still in the church. I am very aware of the "Godly Fear" they live in. They are not sure of there salvation. They don't think on thier own....they think through a filter of "What would my pastor think"..not what would God think....
This is truly a sad state of affairs and it is responsible for the divisions that hinder the growth of Apostolic churches. The pastors should be equipping people to think for themselves.

I truly believe that pastors will have to give an account for the souls that God has sent their way (Hebrews 13:17). We take that scripture in an authoritarian way, which will cost some pastors dearly on the day of reckoning. When the pastor gives "an order" that is to be "obeyed" he should really be giving "tools" that will enable a saint to apply unchanging principles in an ever changing world.

If the only "tool" the saint has is "because the pastor said so...!" then most likely that pastor will suffer grief at the time of accounting.

pelathais
12-15-2007, 04:56 PM
Do you think you need a pastor to maintiain your salvation?
I don't think you do (see Steve Epley's words of wisdom above!). He's one of our forum gurus here and often has sage and wizened counsel.

But irony aside, we all should seek personal human relationships where we are accountable for our behavior and lives. This is one very important purpose of a church. We don't need to go through the "confessional" routine like Catholic churches- and even some Protestant churches do.

But we need feedback. We need fellowship. We need examples of good conduct that we can model. A good pastor(s) fills this role. We need pastors. The criticisms that you will hear often come from people (and pastors!) who have had bad experiences.

Also, in my mind, the role of a pastor in the Apostolic Faith movement has not been founded correctly. This situation will cause more bad experiences for both pastors and saints, but it is not cause to throw out the Biblical office of a pastor. The problems I perceive are with us, not with Biblical pastors.

BoredOutOfMyMind
12-15-2007, 04:59 PM
The pastor, like all ministries, is nothing more than a maintenance man. They didn't save us, nor can they keep us saved. All they do is provide us with the tools (The Word) to help us stay in God's Grace. They are, in fact, invaluable in keeping us running!

One key point here- they are fallable.

Brother Eastman said it best.

I think we all need a pastor, just not to that extent.

Of of the chief complaints of the Jesus Movement was they were "saved hippies" with no accountability. I like that my Pastor has accountability to another for safekeeping, and yet he does not ask where I am going on vacation. I consult with him regarding vacation so he knows I am planning to be gone. If that meant I was going fishing/hunting/golfing on a Sunday and he felt I would do my soul harm, it is his job to advise me of such.

nahkoe
12-15-2007, 05:00 PM
Also, in my mind, the role of a pastor in the Apostolic Faith movement has not been founded correctly. This situation will cause more bad experiences for both pastors and saints, but it is not cause to throw out the Biblical office of a pastor. The problems I perceive are with us, not with Biblical pastors.

Well said.

Harmony
12-15-2007, 05:20 PM
One key point here- they are fallable.

Brother Eastman said it best.

I think we all need a pastor, just not to that extent.

Of of the chief complaints of the Jesus Movement was they were "saved hippies" with no accountability. I like that my Pastor has accountability to another for safekeeping, and yet he does not ask where I am going on vacation. I consult with him regarding vacation so he knows I am planning to be gone. If that meant I was going fishing/hunting/golfing on a Sunday and he felt I would do my soul harm, it is his job to advise me of such.

Who is your pastor held accountable to? Is there a structure set in place where a saint can place a formal complaint/concern and it would be taken seriously?

I hear pastors say they are accountable to so and so, when in reality it is their buddy...in the same position in another town. To me that is not accountability.

Nahum
12-15-2007, 05:27 PM
Yes, we pastors are the abomination of desolation.

We are only out to steal your time and money.

That's why so many of us are not full-time pastors. We are out making more money when we should be living off of $5k a year. To receive more money from the church would hurt critical programs like the superbowl party and the praise dance team.

LaVonne
12-15-2007, 05:29 PM
I like how Bro. Eastman and One Accord have responded.

I am one who has always believed I needed a Pastor to be saved. I'm not so sure anymore...I love my pastor, but he does not save me, nor keep me saved...that is my job and I'm responsible for maintaining my relationship with Jesus Christ. I think it's good to have a pastor, he's one in the 5 fold ministry and I do believe it to be scriptural.

Raven
12-15-2007, 05:44 PM
Our salvation is based on His Grace. Nothing more, nothing less. I can do nothing to obtain my salvation. I can maintain my salvation by following the principles set forth in the Word of God. I can maintain my salvation by keeping myself unspotted from the world and by following the leadership of the Holy Spirit.

That being said... God placed certain ministries in the church that are designed to give us teaching to help us maintain our salvation. Those 5 ministries are listed in Eph 4 and were instituted by God for the reasons given in that same chapter. Those ministries, including that of "pastor", are for our benefit. We are perfected, not by the pastor or the evangelist, but by the Truth they teach. Remember it is the Truth that sets us free. The Body of Christ is edified, again, not by the teacher or prophet, but by the Word they bring. Any preacher, Pastor, Evangelist or District Superintendent that is worth a plug nickle will tell you they are mere servants to the Church. They are but Messengers. It is not THEY THEMSELVES who do anything...it is the Word of God they teach that benefits us. If a pastor says we can't be saved without them , then he no pastor at all. He is a Wolf in Sheeps Clothing. A lord over God's heritage. A real, God-ordained pastor won't tell you that. He will only tell you that you can not be saved without Jesus. He will point you to the Word.

We need the 5 fold ministry as never before. We need the pastor to help to strengthen our relationship with the Lord. I can't say we'd be lost without a pastor... but I can say this...our walk with the Lord would be a lot rougher... a lot more treacherous, if not for the ministry of the Pastor, as well as the other ministry gifts.

What the present day church needs to hear is the call of the Prophet. Not these self-appointed Kim Clements, but real God called prophets whose message agrees with what the Spirit is saying in these last days.

Good post OneAccord! Spoken very well.

Raven

LadyChocolate
12-15-2007, 05:51 PM
Yes, we pastors are the abomination of desolation.

We are only out to steal your time and money.

That's why so many of us are not full-time pastors. We are out making more money when we should be living off of $5k a year. To receive more money from the church would hurt critical programs like the superbowl party and the praise dance team.

Thank you for your honesty bro PP! I know that was hard for you to admit! But us saints feel better knowing the truth!












jk:lol:neener:heeheehee

BoredOutOfMyMind
12-15-2007, 06:01 PM
Who is your pastor held accountable to? Is there a structure set in place where a saint can place a formal complaint/concern and it would be taken seriously?

I hear pastors say they are accountable to so and so, when in reality it is their buddy...in the same position in another town. To me that is not accountability.

23 months ago our Pastor resigned after visits from Board members. Yes, there is a system in place. I don't know of the ALJC, but the UPC has a specific process in place for complaints.

pelathais
12-15-2007, 06:02 PM
Yes, we pastors are the abomination of desolation.

We are only out to steal your time and money.

That's why so many of us are not full-time pastors. We are out making more money when we should be living off of $5k a year. To receive more money from the church would hurt critical programs like the superbowl party and the praise dance team.
When I heard you describe your flock as "God's people" I actually felt drawn to Illinois. Superbowl party or not, there's some folks out there who are truly blessed to have a grat pastor.

RandyWayne
12-15-2007, 06:12 PM
Superbowl parties can be great moral boosters..... And why not charge people to be members of the praise dance team? My old dance lessons were about 7 bucks an hour. Great profit potential!

Sister Truth Seeker
12-15-2007, 06:19 PM
23 months ago our Pastor resigned after visits from Board members. Yes, there is a system in place. I don't know of the ALJC, but the UPC has a specific process in place for complaints.
Well they don't work everywhere....the process must be broke here or they think the pastor is always right....

Harmony
12-15-2007, 07:31 PM
Well they don't work everywhere....the process must be broke here or they think the pastor is always right....

There is NO process in the UPC churches I have been in.

Harmony
12-15-2007, 07:36 PM
ALL pastors are hinderances and one should never have a pastor they will only abuse you and you will get hurt. Instead get your instructions from forum gurus that have never built a church.

I am glad to know that there are pastors who are out there who don't feel they have to govern every aspect of the saints life. There are pastors out there that actually have faith in their flock. They believe they actually want to live for God and are not being forced to.

Also I want to express how thankful I am for this forum and others like it that have allowed me to have the freedom to say how I feel about things.

In the church that I have been brought up in you didn't get that luxury!! If I were to say how I truly felt, or asked honest questions that I had, I would have paid a price for it....I think there are a few on this forum that know what I am trying to say.

BrotherEastman
12-15-2007, 07:44 PM
Do you think you need a pastor to maintiain your salvation?
If God put into place a five fold ministry, then I believe it is imperitive that we have not only a pastor for salvational reasons, but also apostles, prophets, evagalists, and teachers as well. Does that answer your question? It is through these that God delivers his word, I do apologize if someone abuses or misconscues what someone does, but if the Lord didn't think it necessary then we would not have to have salvational need for the five fold ministry.

BrotherEastman
12-15-2007, 07:45 PM
Yes, we pastors are the abomination of desolation.

We are only out to steal your time and money.

That's why so many of us are not full-time pastors. We are out making more money when we should be living off of $5k a year. To receive more money from the church would hurt critical programs like the superbowl party and the praise dance team.
yer just bitter!

Harmony
12-15-2007, 07:50 PM
If God put into place a five fold ministry, then I believe it is imperitive that we have not only a pastor for salvational reasons, but also apostles, prophets, evagalists, and teachers as well. Does that answer your question? It is through these that God delivers his word, I do apologize if someone abuses or misconscues what someone does, but if the Lord didn't think it necessary then we would not have to have salvational need for the five fold ministry.

Actually it makes salvation much more then a 1,2,3, step process. Why tell someone that they can gain eternal salvation if they follow the three steps above and then come along at a later time and say....well actually there is steps 4,5,6,7,&8 and then you "may" make it into heaven.

What is the reason "Salvation" is so important to gain, when really you don't "gain" it...it is still obscure..

Theophil
12-15-2007, 07:50 PM
ALL pastors are hinderances and one should never have a pastor they will only abuse you and you will get hurt. Instead get your instructions from forum gurus that have never built a church.

You have a sense of humor? :jolly

BrotherEastman
12-15-2007, 07:54 PM
Actually it makes salvation much more then a 1,2,3, step process. Why tell someone that they can gain eternal salvation if they follow the three steps above and then come along at a later time and say....well actually there is steps 4,5,6,7,&8 and then you "may" make it into heaven.

What is the reason "Salvation" is so important to gain, when really you don't "gain" it...it is still obscure..
Maybe I'm wrong, but I always understood if one "endures to the end" the same shall be saved (or have salvation).

Joelel
12-15-2007, 07:55 PM
Can a person be saved without a Pastor?

I have been reading the threads on salvation that have been up lately and I just want to scream....You can go thru every step that is out there and your salvation is still unsure......There is really know way to know if you are saved or not.

I am only going off my experience in attending a UPC church all of my life. Absolute submission to the Pastor was KEY to your salvation. If you felt God leading you in a certain way on a "matter" you still needed to have the approval of the Pastor, if they didn't think it was right they expected you to follow there opinion and yes, your salvation was at stake....there are so many weird mind games that were played....and they are all tied into salvation, if you don't adhere to what they wanted then you are in rebellion, and we know that nobody will make it to heaven in a rebellious state!

I have been away from that influence for several years. I have a real concern for family that is still in the church. I am very aware of the "Godly Fear" they live in. They are not sure of there salvation. They don't think on thier own....they think through a filter of "What would my pastor think"..not what would God think....

I'll tell you the truth.All who are saved will not be the bride.I believe there will be many more guests.

Math.22:[1] And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,[2] The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,[3] And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.[4] Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.[5] But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:[6] And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.[7] But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.[8] Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.[9] Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.[10] So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.[11] And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:[12] And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.[13] Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.[14] For many are called, but few are chosen

Joelel
12-15-2007, 08:03 PM
The pastor, like all ministries, is nothing more than a maintenance man. They didn't save us, nor can they keep us saved. All they do is provide us with the tools (The Word) to help us stay in God's Grace. They are, in fact, invaluable in keeping us running!

Yes and hope and pray they give you the right tool or the truth.Many I know don't.

Joelel
12-15-2007, 08:17 PM
Can a person be saved without a Pastor?

I have been reading the threads on salvation that have been up lately and I just want to scream....You can go thru every step that is out there and your salvation is still unsure......There is really know way to know if you are saved or not.

I am only going off my experience in attending a UPC church all of my life. Absolute submission to the Pastor was KEY to your salvation. If you felt God leading you in a certain way on a "matter" you still needed to have the approval of the Pastor, if they didn't think it was right they expected you to follow there opinion and yes, your salvation was at stake....there are so many weird mind games that were played....and they are all tied into salvation, if you don't adhere to what they wanted then you are in rebellion, and we know that nobody will make it to heaven in a rebellious state!

I have been away from that influence for several years. I have a real concern for family that is still in the church. I am very aware of the "Godly Fear" they live in. They are not sure of there salvation. They don't think on thier own....they think through a filter of "What would my pastor think"..not what would God think....

Ask the Holy Ghost everything,follow no man.1 John 2:[26] These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
[27] But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him

Sister Alvear
12-15-2007, 08:41 PM
I think everyone needs a pastor but we should have common sense when looking for one.
I would NOT want a pastor that would ask me about every single thing in my life BUT I would want one that I could feel I could talk with him about anything I needed to.
Some men are not pastors they enjoy ruling and being the boss BUT dear ones there are some GOD called pastors out there too! I am blessed to have one.

Now for another point of veiw...some people just want a pastor to suit their fancy...try to help them (correct them) and you will see how much they want a pastor...

BrotherEastman
12-16-2007, 08:14 AM
Actually it makes salvation much more then a 1,2,3, step process. Why tell someone that they can gain eternal salvation if they follow the three steps above and then come along at a later time and say....well actually there is steps 4,5,6,7,&8 and then you "may" make it into heaven.

What is the reason "Salvation" is so important to gain, when really you don't "gain" it...it is still obscure..
Here we go with the three step conversation. Did Dan put you up to this? I believe one should obey Acts 2:38, but I also believe that those who obeyed Acts 2:38 still have a ways to go. I do not believe in a three step salvation as one would so elequently put it. If one backslides are they still saved just because they obeyed a three step plan?

simplyme
12-16-2007, 08:55 AM
Ask the Holy Ghost everything,follow no man.1 John 2:[26] These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
[27] But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him

HALLELUJAH, there you have it!
BIBLE sense., I have been saved by the most High Priest, JESUS., whom is the HG that lives in me, and is my pastor, in the spirit., my GOD period.
In both spiritual and physical sense, I already submit to the pastor GOD gave me -
my husband! ;)

Sister Truth Seeker
12-16-2007, 09:03 AM
I think everyone needs a pastor but we should have common sense when looking for one.
I would NOT want a pastor that would ask me about every single thing in my life BUT I would want one that I could feel I could talk with him about anything I needed to.
Some men are not pastors they enjoy ruling and being the boss BUT dear ones there are some GOD called pastors out there too! I am blessed to have one.

Now for another point of veiw...some people just want a pastor to suit their fancy...try to help them (correct them) and you will see how much they want a pastor...
I agree with this completely some are not pastors or shepards they are rulers, and I think the problem comes when they go into the ministry because its what is expected of them instead of a true calling....

Yes there are those who want the pastor to be a yes man, but that is not Harmony's desire I know that....

Good points sis

Sister Truth Seeker
12-16-2007, 09:04 AM
Ask the Holy Ghost everything,follow no man.1 John 2:[26] These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
[27] But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him
AMEN....preach it!

Michael Phelps
12-16-2007, 09:15 AM
ALL pastors are hinderances and one should never have a pastor they will only abuse you and you will get hurt. Instead get your instructions from forum gurus that have never built a church.

Strawman.

So, Elder, in all seriousness, do you believe one can be saved without a pastor?

Harmony
12-16-2007, 09:51 AM
Now for another point of veiw...some people just want a pastor to suit their fancy...try to help them (correct them) and you will see how much they want a pastor...


I understand your point. I think I need a pastor in my life. I just don't think that my obedience to a pastor is going to determine my salvation. I don't think being in rebelion is right either. I just think that I should have a say in what goes on in my life.

I was under the leadership of a pastor for 15+ years and I know that I was not respected as a person. There are so many times I wanted to withdraw from a responsibility because I was raising 4 children and didn't have the energy....If I withdrew I would pay in an subliminal punishment. I didn't have the heart for God's kingdom, I was rejected by their spirits until I got back into the "program" 100%. My kids and husband paid a high price for my involvement. My husbad was very involved as well and our relationship suffered. It takes alot of energy to raise and maintiain family relationships. It can not be done spending 50% of your time on your job, 30% at church, and 20% at home.........

Sister Alvear
12-16-2007, 10:43 AM
very sad, my friend.
In travels I have been and am acquainted with all types...from those that want to know what goes on in the bedroom to those who just want your tithes...
However each one of us needs someone we feel that can be our leader, our helper NOT our abuser. And remember some people are never satisfied…
It is a very hard job to fulfill the godly calling of a pastor. Since my husband left for the states I along with a group of ministers am trying to fill his big shoes for a month.
Yesterday a group of us (32) I believe it was were on our way to a special service when the church van had a wreck. It was not our brother that was driving fault but a girl on a bicycle run out in front of the van...It was pretty bad but the girl was not killed but is in the hospital. Hit so hard it busted out the van window and did some damage (not a lot). The people were pretty shaken up.I was on my way in an old car that belongs to our son Raul Jr (ours I let someone else use) so I was going another way and another van following me to make sure I didn´t break down...soon as our people called we turned around went to the scene of the accident...it took a long time to resolve things...the police hauled the church van away...but I prayed with our people and told them we must not let the devil defeat us so we got them all loaded up (sardines) stopped by the bread store and I bought them something to eat and drink and we went on to another one of our churches in town...we were late for their service but it was awesome...
I have been all morning trying to solve problems...everyone has such a sweet spirit. I am not their pastor but my husband is and taking them to church was what I felt would help them after such a scare.
They respect me and I respect them.
Our bus that had took a group over to sing at another church broke down...another problem I have to solve but I have a group of brothers that are seeing what can be done.
All churches will have those that are trouble makers and those that spread lies and gossip and shun the pastor or overseer...but all churches will have those that rally together and uplift the pastor´s hands.
I think we should be careful who we choose to watch over our souls.

There are two sides to every story...I had a pastor call me last week and ask me, Sister Alvear what about so and so...I said Brother in time you will find out...who gives problems one place will give problems somewhere else in time.
And that not only is true of members a pastor that abuses in one place will do the same in another place.
I have a friend who worked many years for the FBI...the person changed names for people that were involved in dangerous crimes for their testimonies...My friend told me, Janice, you can change a person´s name, change their looks but you never really change their likes and dislikes. I have often thought about that...How true it is. The human heart can only be changed by God and even at that there must be a want to and a humbleness to want to change. God resists the proud but giveth grace to the humble.
I do not know what you have suffered but you do and I will earnestly pray for you.
another thing a pastor that does not try to build up strong homes something is selfish in his spirit...a church can be no stronger than the homes that make up the church...

nahkoe
12-16-2007, 11:05 AM
This isn't a pastor. This is..that other type of leader people keep mentioning here.

A pastor is available, but not overbearing. Ready with counsel, but doesn't demand obedience.

My pastor has said things, answered questions, yes it's clear what he'd like me to do, but he won't even go so far as to tell me what to do. And his treatment towards me is absolutly no different while I'm not doing it than after I do. He expects me to pray about his counsel and do what *God* leads me to do. So far, those have lined up exactly.

My pastor would like me to be involved in the church more than I am, but he knows I have reasons for hesitating and he respects those reasons.

I understand your point. I think I need a pastor in my life. I just don't think that my obedience to a pastor is going to determine my salvation. I don't think being in rebelion is right either. I just think that I should have a say in what goes on in my life.

I was under the leadership of a pastor for 15+ years and I know that I was not respected as a person. There are so many times I wanted to withdraw from a responsibility because I was raising 4 children and didn't have the energy....If I withdrew I would pay in an subliminal punishment. I didn't have the heart for God's kingdom, I was rejected by their spirits until I got back into the "program" 100%. My kids and husband paid a high price for my involvement. My husbad was very involved as well and our relationship suffered. It takes alot of energy to raise and maintiain family relationships. It can not be done spending 50% of your time on your job, 30% at church, and 20% at home.........

LaVonne
12-16-2007, 04:16 PM
Strawman.

So, Elder, in all seriousness, do you believe one can be saved without a pastor?

You HAD to ask?!? :heeheehee

Coonskinner
12-16-2007, 04:25 PM
Strawman.

So, Elder, in all seriousness, do you believe one can be saved without a pastor?

From reading here, a more pertinent question is can one be saved with a pastor...:)

BrotherEastman
12-16-2007, 05:00 PM
From reading here, a more pertinent question is can one be saved with a pastor...:)
Is it possible? LOL!

Felicity
12-16-2007, 05:21 PM
Haven't read through the thread but answering the topic starter question, I doubt very much I'd be saved without a pastor. A person can scarce be saved WITH one so how on earth could they make it without a spiritual guide/mentor/leader/pastor in their life? I can't fathom it.

It was God's plan that we have a shepherd/pastor/teacher/leader to guide, instruct, rebuke, correct and love us and I am OH SO THANKFUL!!!!! for the wonderful pastors I've had in my own life and for those who have come alongside to be my friend with encouragement, instruction, correction and prayer.

I am soooooooo thankful to God for each of them!

Harmony
12-16-2007, 05:24 PM
From reading here, a more pertinent question is can one be saved with a pastor...:)


Or....Who is qualified to be a pastor...scriptually? I am a PK and I have wondered how in the world some of the pastors I have met were ever given a license.

Please do not think I am a pastor hater....I AM NOT. I do not agree with how the UPC oversees the leadership. In fact is there any overseeing?

BrotherEastman
12-16-2007, 05:44 PM
Haven't read through the thread but answering the topic starter question, I doubt very much I'd be saved without a pastor. A person can scarce be saved WITH one so how on earth could they make it without a spiritual guide/mentor/leader/pastor in their life? I can't fathom it.

It was God's plan that we have a shepherd/pastor/teacher/leader to guide, instruct, rebuke, correct and love us and I am OH SO THANKFUL!!!!! for the wonderful pastors I've had in my own life and for those who have come alongside to be my friend with encouragement, instruction, correction and prayer.

I am soooooooo thankful to God for each of them!
No no Felicity, you were seved following the three step plan of salvation. LOL!

Sister Truth Seeker
12-16-2007, 05:53 PM
I have heard this argument more than once on the forum....


I was saved by Jesus Christ....no one on earth can save me or anyone else and no one can keep anyone saved either...its up to us as children of God to stay in His fold....we are saved through Jesus Christ...

Once I am saved I don't have to have a pastor, because I have the great shephard and His word...there is preaching to be had everywhere...internet, TV, radio...I think fellowship is wonderful, but if you had to have a pastor to be saved there are probably millions of people who have given their hearts and souls to the Lord and don't make it to church much if ever, and I don't think they are in jepordy of hell.


Church's are so big, so political, so tainted by mens thinking and desires...I am wanting to start a home church, not affiliated with any oraganization, just a few friends that are interested in studying the word of God and having fellowship....

BrotherEastman
12-16-2007, 06:01 PM
I have heard this argument more than once on the forum....


I was saved by Jesus Christ....no one on earth can save me or anyone else and no one can keep anyone saved either...its up to us as children of God to stay in His fold....we are saved through Jesus Christ...

Once I am saved I don't have to have a pastor, because I have the great shephard and His word...there is preaching to be had everywhere...internet, TV, radio...I think fellowship is wonderful, but if you had to have a pastor to be saved there are probably millions of people who have given their hearts and souls to the Lord and don't make it to church much if ever, and I don't think they are in jepordy of hell.


Church's are so big, so political, so tainted by mens thinking and desires...I am wanting to start a home church, not affiliated with any oraganization, just a few friends that are interested in studying the word of God and having fellowship....
You're probably right, why have a five fold ministry in place when you can be a five fold ministry? Apostles, prophets, evangalist, pastors, and teachers is something one can easily attain, w/out the call of God of course.

Sister Truth Seeker
12-16-2007, 06:14 PM
You're probably right, why have a five fold ministry in place when you can be a five fold ministry? Apostles, prophets, evangalist, pastors, and teachers is something one can easily attain, w/out the call of God of course.NO one can attain those things if they don't have the call of God that was my earlier point...one of the problems is so many pastors are such because there father handed them the church....and it was accepted and expected they would pastor even though they may have not been called and wanted to do something else, in my experience the five fold ministry is very important, but is not allowed in a lot of churchs becauset the pastor wants the only and final say on things....

Michael Phelps
12-16-2007, 08:12 PM
From reading here, a more pertinent question is can one be saved with a pastor...:)

Leaving aside non-sequitirs and funny remarks, can anyone show me scripture that says a person cannot be saved without a pastor?

Just for the sake of discussion, of course........

Coonskinner
12-16-2007, 08:28 PM
Leaving aside non-sequitirs and funny remarks, can anyone show me scripture that says a person cannot be saved without a pastor?

Just for the sake of discussion, of course........

There is no verse that says "thou must have a pastor to be saved."

This is one I will not argue about.

I don't think anybody here thinks that some person in extreme circumstances, marooned on a desert island, would be doomed automatically to hell if they had to live without a pastor.

I also think it is highly unlikely that anyone who doesn't want a pastor is going to be saved. There are no good reasons for that attitude, and when you look at the whole counsel of Scripture, the case is pretty clear.

Scott Hutchinson
12-16-2007, 08:34 PM
I don't believe in Spiritual abusive pastors, or cultic dictators, but yes we all need a loving pastor and a home church.
The ministry helps one get established in God.
The ministry and the church are God ordained things.
No-one is a lone ranger or a island to themselves, and we need those who hold us accountable.

PastorD
12-16-2007, 08:50 PM
Or....Who is qualified to be a pastor...scriptually? I am a PK and I have wondered how in the world some of the pastors I have met were ever given a license.

Please do not think I am a pastor hater....I AM NOT. I do not agree with how the UPC oversees the leadership. In fact is there any overseeing?



WOW!! Is there any???? I am signing statements, standing before boards, presbyters know what I do before I do it, credit checks, and assumed guilty until proved innocent with any rumor. I think there is plenty of oversight! :rudolph

Scott Hutchinson
12-16-2007, 08:58 PM
God calls folks to ministerial giftings, a group cannot call a person to ministry ,nor can they take a ministerial gifting anyone from someone either.

Sister Truth Seeker
12-16-2007, 09:11 PM
There is no verse that says "thou must have a pastor to be saved."

This is one I will not argue about.

I don't think anybody here thinks that some person in extreme circumstances, marooned on a desert island, would be doomed automatically to hell if they had to live without a pastor.

I also think it is highly unlikely that anyone who doesn't want a pastor is going to be saved. There are no good reasons for that attitude, and when you look at the whole counsel of Scripture, the case is pretty clear.
I disagree with this...not wanting a pastor has nothing to do with salvation at all...he can not save me or keep me saved...it is my choice totally on where I end up, between me and God....He(God) knows all about me, He knows where I am weak, where I am strong, and what I need...a pastor as a man, knows only what I tell him, and can not see into my heart and soul, but God is already there.....a pastor can be a friend, a councilor, a teacher, many things...but can not make my salvation a sure thing. Only God can do that!

Harmony
12-16-2007, 10:01 PM
Or....Who is qualified to be a pastor...scriptually? I am a PK and I have wondered how in the world some of the pastors I have met were ever given a license.

Please do not think I am a pastor hater....I AM NOT. I do not agree with how the UPC oversees the leadership. In fact is there any overseeing?


WOW!! Is there any???? I am signing statements, standing before boards, presbyters know what I do before I do it, credit checks, and assumed guilty until proved innocent with any rumor. I think there is plenty of oversight! :rudolph

I disagree. I stood along side my husband as he went through the same process to become a licensed minister. He went through the same scrutiny you mention to become a minister. During the 8 years of being a minister of the UPC he was never given a review on his "performance". He was a minister for 8 years and was very involved in the District Youth Dept., he was a sectional Youth leader for those 8 years.

Being a pastor is considered one of the highest callings. All of the other professions out in there don't even come cose. All of these other professions have a Board that oversee's them. A place where we (the little peons) can issue a complaint to and it will be reviewed by a panel of men/women and then a decision is made that will resolve the issue. Why is there not a place for the "saint" to safely go and express a concern about their pastor?

Neck
12-16-2007, 10:18 PM
Can a person be saved without a Pastor?

I have been reading the threads on salvation that have been up lately and I just want to scream....You can go thru every step that is out there and your salvation is still unsure......There is really know way to know if you are saved or not.

I am only going off my experience in attending a UPC church all of my life. Absolute submission to the Pastor was KEY to your salvation. If you felt God leading you in a certain way on a "matter" you still needed to have the approval of the Pastor, if they didn't think it was right they expected you to follow there opinion and yes, your salvation was at stake....there are so many weird mind games that were played....and they are all tied into salvation, if you don't adhere to what they wanted then you are in rebellion, and we know that nobody will make it to heaven in a rebellious state!

I have been away from that influence for several years. I have a real concern for family that is still in the church. I am very aware of the "Godly Fear" they live in. They are not sure of there salvation. They don't think on thier own....they think through a filter of "What would my pastor think"..not what would God think....

Yes

Coonskinner
12-17-2007, 05:58 AM
I disagree with this...not wanting a pastor has nothing to do with salvation at all...he can not save me or keep me saved...it is my choice totally on where I end up, between me and God....He(God) knows all about me, He knows where I am weak, where I am strong, and what I need...a pastor as a man, knows only what I tell him, and can not see into my heart and soul, but God is already there.....a pastor can be a friend, a councilor, a teacher, many things...but can not make my salvation a sure thing. Only God can do that!

If you would care to support your views with Scripture, rather than just how you feel, I would be interested in reading.

I know of a passage or two that seem to contradict your philosophy.

Coonskinner
12-17-2007, 06:04 AM
The five fold ministry is a gift God gave the church.

How do you think God feels about you rejecting His Gifts, and deciding you have no need for them?

I have Bible for this...how's about you giving me some Bible for your rejection of His Gift to you?

Not your experiences, how you "feel," etc. but the Scripture.

We are going to be judged by the Word, not by what we feel, think, or have experienced.

Titus2Mom
12-17-2007, 06:46 AM
I believe we need fellowship. I believe we need biblical elders to learn from, but the idea that we need some official institutional leader with a piece of paper saying his is the "qualified" leader, to me is nonsense. Do I think pastors are evil, NO!!! I am not saying that. I believe that most of the people who become pastors do so with the best of intentions. That they truly have the heart to add to The Church. But, I do know that position and power can corrupt, and priorities can shift. I do not think that an abiblical system is the governing voice of salvation. That would be quite "pope-ish" I believe, and really stepping outside the Word...adding to it even.

COOPER
12-17-2007, 06:48 AM
Can a baby grow up with out a father?

revrandy
12-17-2007, 06:58 AM
I wonder why God needed Apostles at all???

Not Really, A Pastor generally for the most part is a Shepherd who leads God's Sheep... A number of folks (I can include myself here) here represent a few experiences that are definitely not encouraging but for the most part represent a small percentage of Pentecost as a whole...

I have found in my life that as a Preachers Kid I never understood the Pastor/Saint issue... and still struggle with it today..I have pastored and will pastor again... but understanding the importance of Godly leadership and Godly vision along with Godly encouragement and Godly understanding brings an element of Christianity that is much needed in my life...

Role models and Mentors are extremely important in the kingdom...That some do take things to far is going to happen...but I would encourage those that have been in that situation and are going thru that situation if you can't find peace or solution where your at...find a place where you can... let God work on you....that's right I said "YOU".... because unless God does the work... all your labor will be in vain...

I never really had a Pastor growing up until I left home and never realized I had a Pastor until the man we set under became a Mentor to me... It just happened when I realized how important he was to me... and the influence he had in my life to help me serve God...

I know many will argue the fact... but I do think that Godly Pastors are important and there are many good men out there doing what they can for the Lord...

Just my thoughts...

Randy...

Falla39
12-17-2007, 07:53 AM
Can a baby grow up with out a father?

Bro. Cooper,

Yes a baby can grow up without a father, but what kind of a father

will that "baby" make! You can't "make" a baby without a man! He may

not be a "spiritual" or even a good "natual" father. That is why if there

were not "spiritual" fathers, there could be no "spiritual" sons.


There is a need for "spiritual" mothers AND fathers in the church in order

for there to be "spiritual sons AND daughters. Paul taught or mentored young

Timothy in the gospel. His natural father (a greek)wasn't a believer, although

perhaps taught him some responsibilities. Paul recognized potential in this

young man!


He had a grandmother and mother was perhaps were used in the church to

mentor young women coming into the church. Young Timothy could sow the

Word. Paul told Timothy not to rebuke elder men and women but to treat

them as fathers and mothers, and the younger men as brothers and the

young women as sisters, with all purity.


There was a place for everyone to be used. Like a family. The older helped

with the younger. In our family, we older children helped the younger with

many things, including helping with their homework. No way Dad and Mom

could do everything.


In a family if the "baby" always remains a baby, will they ever become

true fathers and mothers themselves. Sometimes we "enable" babies to

remain babies by not giving them responsibilities, and building confidence

that they are needed whether in the home or work of God!


The apostle Paul (although not a natural father) knew an awful lot about

fathering. No doubt he learned from his Father (who was also his Spiritual

Father). It has to start somewhere!!


Paul was a "spiritual" father, sowing (teaching and mentoring) young men

to be "spiritual" fathers. Timothy, (father a greek) had been "raised and

influenced" by a godly grandmother and mother. There was the need for

a "father" figure in his life. God used Paul to do this. Paul mentored or

"fathered". God will raise up what is needed or lacking to fulfill HIS PLAN

or PURPOSE!


Paul told the Corinthian church that although they might have

ten thousand instuctors in Christ, yet they didn't have many "fathers".

He explained that he had begotten (caused to be) them through the

gospel. They were in the church because Paul had sowed (planted)

them through the gospel.


If it had been left up to "natural" fathers, many would not be in the

church today. My father was both my natural and my spiritual father.

His mother (like Eunice) planted the "seed" of the Word of God in his

young heart. As they studied and obeyed the Word, by the time we

children came along, Dad started endeavoring to follow the Word of

God and being led by the Spirit of God, to raise his family in a biblically

order. He couldn't look to his father as his mentor in that area, although

his earthly father taught him many good principals, etc.,things pertaining

to life.

I thank God for all the good influences in my life, both natural and

spiritually.

Blessings,

Falla39

Sister Truth Seeker
12-17-2007, 07:55 AM
The five fold ministry is a gift God gave the church.

How do you think God feels about you rejecting His Gifts, and deciding you have no need for them?

I have Bible for this...how's about you giving me some Bible for your rejection of His Gift to you?

Not your experiences, how you "feel," etc. but the Scripture.

We are going to be judged by the Word, not by what we feel, think, or have experienced.CS.....I can not quote scripture...sorry....and you may be right maybe I am rejecting "organized" religion. I am tired of the politics, the back biting, the gossip, the cliques, the hypocricy....I just want to have a relationship with God, and fellowship with others...I think friends that are living for God can fill the roles of the five fold ministry....My SIL is a minister and I can go to him with question if I feel the need, I listen to preaching on the radio, I have tapes, I can do bible studies with myself or a friend, or a group, many church offer them without you having to "JOIN"...I was a card carrying UPC for over 7 years in my very adult life....I had bad burns when I left...it was hard; still cry over it; the things that happened....so brother walk in my shoes "well they are probably way to small" ....... my experience could have been different, I don't know what will come, but God is my shepard, and He leads me...

COOPER
12-17-2007, 08:38 AM
Sister Truth Seeker[/B];329223]CS.....I can not quote scripture...sorry....and you may be right maybe I am rejecting "organized" religion. I am tired of the politics, the back biting, the gossip, the cliques, the hypocricy....I just want to have a relationship with God, and fellowship with others...I think friends that are living for God can fill the roles of the five fold ministry....My SIL is a minister and I can go to him with question if I feel the need, I listen to preaching on the radio, I have tapes, I can do bible studies with myself or a friend, or a group, many church offer them without you having to "JOIN"...I was a card carrying UPC for over 7 years in my very adult life....I had bad burns when I left...it was hard; still cry over it; the things that happened....so brother walk in my shoes "well they are probably way to small" ....... my experience could have been different, I don't know what will come, but God is my shepard, and He leads me...

A woman preacher?

Sister Truth Seeker
12-17-2007, 09:11 AM
A woman preacher?OH mercy NO....when I was in the church I thought it was wrong for women to stand up and teach MEN....it made me uncomfortable....even though I loved hearing the teaching it was just strange in the realm of UPC....I was as card caring member of the UPC....my church....you have to be approved to get the card, you have to sign a paper stating how you will fallow all the rules....ya know, like no TV, in the articles of faith, did anyone here know it says you will NOT be in a position of military, or police where you Will carry a gun and shoot someone. My hubby had a hard time with that one...I wonder how many ever really read this book....we did before we signed on...

LaVonne
12-17-2007, 09:38 AM
I disagree. I stood along side my husband as he went through the same process to become a licensed minister. He went through the same scrutiny you mention to become a minister. During the 8 years of being a minister of the UPC he was never given a review on his "performance". He was a minister for 8 years and was very involved in the District Youth Dept., he was a sectional Youth leader for those 8 years.

Being a pastor is considered one of the highest callings. All of the other professions out in there don't even come cose. All of these other professions have a Board that oversee's them. A place where we (the little peons) can issue a complaint to and it will be reviewed by a panel of men/women and then a decision is made that will resolve the issue. Why is there not a place for the "saint" to safely go and express a concern about their pastor?

I would have to agree with you Harmony. While my husband was not licensed, we certainly have a much better understanding now then we did back then of the "system". I think it depends on the district you are in, but it's true that in some areas the Pastor is the highest calling, they don't believe in the five fold ministry.

LaVonne
12-17-2007, 09:39 AM
The five fold ministry is a gift God gave the church.
How do you think God feels about you rejecting His Gifts, and deciding you have no need for them?

I have Bible for this...how's about you giving me some Bible for your rejection of His Gift to you?

Not your experiences, how you "feel," etc. but the Scripture.

We are going to be judged by the Word, not by what we feel, think, or have experienced.

This is true!

BrotherEastman
12-17-2007, 11:54 AM
NO one can attain those things if they don't have the call of God that was my earlier point...one of the problems is so many pastors are such because there father handed them the church....and it was accepted and expected they would pastor even though they may have not been called and wanted to do something else, in my experience the five fold ministry is very important, but is not allowed in a lot of churchs becauset the pastor wants the only and final say on things....
LOL! So, you're wanting to do the work of "good ole' fashion bible discussions w/out a pastor? Does this mean you want to take up the position of pastor evangalist prophet teacher, apostle to do this very work?

BrotherEastman
12-17-2007, 11:57 AM
CS.....I can not quote scripture...sorry....and you may be right maybe I am rejecting "organized" religion. I am tired of the politics, the back biting, the gossip, the cliques, the hypocricy....I just want to have a relationship with God, and fellowship with others...I think friends that are living for God can fill the roles of the five fold ministry....My SIL is a minister and I can go to him with question if I feel the need, I listen to preaching on the radio, I have tapes, I can do bible studies with myself or a friend, or a group, many church offer them without you having to "JOIN"...I was a card carrying UPC for over 7 years in my very adult life....I had bad burns when I left...it was hard; still cry over it; the things that happened....so brother walk in my shoes "well they are probably way to small" ....... my experience could have been different, I don't know what will come, but God is my shepard, and He leads me...
Not to begrudge your past, but why listen to tapes at all?

Coonskinner
12-17-2007, 12:27 PM
Your good buddies cannot fill the role of God called ministry.

Sorry, sis, but that one won't fly.

I understand that you have had some bad experiences, and for that i am sorry. It grieves me to hear of things like that happening.

But you need to remember this--when you stand before God, those things will not excuse your rejection of His ways revealed in His Word.

I promise you there are people who endured far worse who did NOT throw the baby out with the bathwater.

You are obviously a sweet person and I believe sincere, but you are deceiving yourself if you think you and your friends who also reject Scriptural ministry can make it with some coffee club church, where you play at being apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers for one another.

jacksonst
12-17-2007, 12:54 PM
steve not all pastors are a hinderance and not all will hurt and abuse you, but a small few can be a real disapointment.

Coonskinner
12-17-2007, 01:09 PM
steve not all pastors are a hinderance and not all will hurt and abuse you, but a small few can be a real disapointment.

Same deal with saints. Most in my experience are precious, but a small few can be a real disappointment.

I refuse, however, to go on an anti-saint crusade and bash saints because of the actions of a small minority.

LaVonne
12-17-2007, 01:11 PM
Same deal with saints. Most in my experience are precious, but a small few can be a real disappointment.

I refuse, however, to go on an anti-saint crusade and bash saints because of the actions of a small minority.

I don't think that was the spirit of this thread from its inception. The thread starter said that they wanted a pastor in their life, but had questions.

Coonskinner
12-17-2007, 01:14 PM
I don't think that was the spirit of this thread from its inception. The thread starter said that they wanted a pastor in their life, but had questions.

I don't figure it was the intent of the thread starter either, but I can promise you, that spirit is rank around these parts, and if it hasn't shown up on the thread yet, it is apt to.

We've been around this mulberry bush before.

LaVonne
12-17-2007, 01:15 PM
I don't figure it was the intent of the thread starter either, but I can promise you, that spirit is rank around these parts, and if it hasn't shown up on the thread yet, it is apt to.

We've been around this mulberry bush before.

Yes, we have.

Just for the record, I love our pastor...he's the most loving, caring shepherd we've ever had in our lives.

Coonskinner
12-17-2007, 01:18 PM
Yes, we have.

Just for the record, I love our pastor...he's the most loving, caring shepherd we've ever had in our lives.


I'm so glad, Sister.

I know you folks haven't walked the easiest of roads, but because you didn't toss in the towel, God made a way. He'll do that if we givve Him the chance.

LaVonne
12-17-2007, 01:27 PM
I'm so glad, Sister.

I know you folks haven't walked the easiest of roads, but because you didn't toss in the towel, God made a way. He'll do that if we givve Him the chance.

Thanks brother, I really needed to hear this today!:santathumb

BrotherEastman
12-17-2007, 03:09 PM
Your good buddies cannot fill the role of God called ministry.

Sorry, sis, but that one won't fly.

I understand that you have had some bad experiences, and for that i am sorry. It grieves me to hear of things like that happening.

But you need to remember this--when you stand before God, those things will not excuse your rejection of His ways revealed in His Word.

I promise you there are people who endured far worse who did NOT throw the baby out with the bathwater.

You are obviously a sweet person and I believe sincere, but you are deceiving yourself if you think you and your friends who also reject Scriptural ministry can make it with some coffee club church, where you play at being apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers for one another.
LOL! Yer just bitter.





















































j/k

Sister Truth Seeker
12-17-2007, 03:15 PM
Your good buddies cannot fill the role of God called ministry.

Sorry, sis, but that one won't fly.

I understand that you have had some bad experiences, and for that i am sorry. It grieves me to hear of things like that happening.

But you need to remember this--when you stand before God, those things will not excuse your rejection of His ways revealed in His Word.

I promise you there are people who endured far worse who did NOT throw the baby out with the bathwater.

You are obviously a sweet person and I believe sincere, but you are deceiving yourself if you think you and your friends who also reject Scriptural ministry can make it with some coffee club church, where you play at being apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers for one another.I know you all have good intentions and I don't reject everything you say, but for now I am not wanting to be in a church, and God knows the reason why....I am at the end of my dicussion here so I won't be resonding on this thread anymore...its all be sidetracked a bit from what was asked, which I did answer...everyone has a different walk, some easier than others, but none the less personal...I know where I am and I know where I stand.....and most important so does God..................................

tbpew
12-17-2007, 03:42 PM
ALL pastors are hinderances and one should never have a pastor they will only abuse you and you will get hurt. Instead get your instructions from forum gurus that have never built a church.

3rd option:
get your instruction from the one who is the builder and maker of his own church.

RandyWayne
12-17-2007, 03:56 PM
I look at pastors like I do government. A necessary evil.
It would be nice if you didn't need one.... but in the end, for long term success, you really do.

dizzyde
12-17-2007, 04:37 PM
I know you all have good intentions and I don't reject everything you say, but for now I am not wanting to be in a church, and God knows the reason why....I am at the end of my dicussion here so I won't be resonding on this thread anymore...its all be sidetracked a bit from what was asked, which I did answer...everyone has a different walk, some easier than others, but none the less personal...I know where I am and I know where I stand.....and most important so does God..................................

Sister, I understand where you are coming from, but you cannot throw out the Word of God because of your experience. I am completely opposed to men abusing their position, and it is totally wrong. But as CS said, you cannot throw the baby out with the bathwater.

There is a biblical principle in the authority and role of a pastor. The fact that some men abuse this authority does not negate the word of God. And to wash your hands of all authority, just because you have had a bad experience with the authority you were under, doesn't make any sense to me.

I know that you have been deeply wounded, and I feel as though you are probably still in the healing phase of this experience, but I feel as though, at the very least, you are robbing yourself of a real blessing by not having a Godly pastor to help guide you in your walk.

My pastor is a tremendous blessing to me, and I feel very safe and protected under his guidance. Of course, the philosophy of my pastor is that there is only one church, and God is the head of it. If you can find a pastor who operates under that mentality, I think that you will find it a whole different experience.

I am praying for you, and hope that you understand that I am not trying to attack your position, I know what you have been through

PastorD
12-17-2007, 07:37 PM
I am shocked at the preacher/pastor/tithe haters on AFF.

Fiyahstarter
12-17-2007, 09:35 PM
CS.....I can not quote scripture...sorry....and you may be right maybe I am rejecting "organized" religion. I am tired of the politics, the back biting, the gossip, the cliques, the hypocricy....I just want to have a relationship with God, and fellowship with others...I think friends that are living for God can fill the roles of the five fold ministry....My SIL is a minister and I can go to him with question if I feel the need, I listen to preaching on the radio, I have tapes, I can do bible studies with myself or a friend, or a group, many church offer them without you having to "JOIN"...I was a card carrying UPC for over 7 years in my very adult life....I had bad burns when I left...it was hard; still cry over it; the things that happened....so brother walk in my shoes "well they are probably way to small" ....... my experience could have been different, I don't know what will come, but God is my shepard, and He leads me...

I feel your pain, Sister. In the same boat. Praying for you... I'm seeking too. And we "shall find". Because it is promised. (And CS, that IS scripture.)

toof
12-17-2007, 09:40 PM
Can a person be saved without a Pastor?

I have been reading the threads on salvation that have been up lately and I just want to scream....You can go thru every step that is out there and your salvation is still unsure......There is really know way to know if you are saved or not.

I am only going off my experience in attending a UPC church all of my life. Absolute submission to the Pastor was KEY to your salvation. If you felt God leading you in a certain way on a "matter" you still needed to have the approval of the Pastor, if they didn't think it was right they expected you to follow there opinion and yes, your salvation was at stake....there are so many weird mind games that were played....and they are all tied into salvation, if you don't adhere to what they wanted then you are in rebellion, and we know that nobody will make it to heaven in a rebellious state!

I have been away from that influence for several years. I have a real concern for family that is still in the church. I am very aware of the "Godly Fear" they live in. They are not sure of there salvation. They don't think on thier own....they think through a filter of "What would my pastor think"..not what would God think....

Well, hello old friends from FCF, NFCF. AFF land.

It has been several months since spending any time here but I see things haven't changed.

No, you don't need a pastor. Especilally a UPC one. They are evil and only want to control you lives....

Merry Chrstmas and may God bless our Pastors who love Truth!


:santathumb

ChTatum
12-17-2007, 10:20 PM
toof,
good to see you posting.

Thanks for being here.

Fiyahstarter
12-17-2007, 11:01 PM
Well, hello old friends from FCF, NFCF. AFF land.

It has been several months since spending any time here but I see things haven't changed.

No, you don't need a pastor. Especilally a UPC one. They are evil and only want to control you lives....

Merry Chrstmas and may God bless our Pastors who love Truth!


:santathumb

Is this sarcasm? Or denial?

Felicity
12-17-2007, 11:18 PM
I look at pastors like I do government. A necessary evil.
It would be nice if you didn't need one.... but in the end, for long term success, you really do.The last phrase that I bolded is the only part of this post I would agree with.

Coonskinner
12-18-2007, 06:48 AM
I feel your pain, Sister. In the same boat. Praying for you... I'm seeking too. And we "shall find". Because it is promised. (And CS, that IS scripture.)


Absolutely...but if you are seeking an exception to His Word, what you find will be deception.

CareyM and her family are an example of seeking the will of God--and finding it.

Coonskinner
12-18-2007, 06:49 AM
The last phrase that I bolded is the only part of this post I would agree with.

It feels great to be a "necessary evil." :)

Gotta love that kind of appreciation. :)

Sister Alvear
12-18-2007, 07:45 AM
I love my pastor and am blessed. He is not rich to help with a lot of material things but more than rich in spirit and guidance...

I do know some pastors that abuse people but NOT all are like that...If something happened to my pastor I would be in a fix! I trust his thoughts, his opinions and his leadings...

Does that mean we have never disagreed? Of course not...but I consider deeply everything he says as he is kind, loving and caring and I know he would never advise me wrong on purpose.

Yes, we all need a GODLY pastor...Even Jesus talked to the Father...study His life...we learn a lot from Him.

Nahum
12-18-2007, 07:57 AM
3rd option:
get your instruction from the one who is the builder and maker of his own church.

What do church planters have to do with this?

Nahum
12-18-2007, 07:58 AM
I am shocked at the preacher/pastor/tithe haters on AFF.

Oh, the shock will wear off PastorD.

It will soon be replaced with disgust. :santathumb

mizpeh
12-18-2007, 08:46 AM
What do church planters have to do with this?

He's talking about Jesus Christ as the builder of the church. Or are you being funny? :rudolph

Sister Alvear
12-18-2007, 09:09 AM
Sad that there are people who will not sit under a pastor and I am not talking about one that is all messed up but a good man of God that cares...

I see things from a pastor's wife point of veiw...there are some people who would not sit under Jesus Christ...some people think a psstor ought to pay their bills, pet and pamper them and will not take correction or advice...they run over to another pastor and instead of that pastor telling them they need to listen the pastor pets them and the situation gets worse...in the end you have a family that in time gets mad at the pastor that pet them and runs somewhere else and it becomes a cycle...
So dear ones there are two sides to every story. Strange as it may seem usually the ones that you do the most for are the ones that turn against you.

So it pays to pray much, talk less and buckle down and serve God and may I add ; have common sense...

Fiyahstarter
12-18-2007, 12:56 PM
Absolutely...but if you are seeking an exception to His Word, what you find will be deception.

CareyM and her family are an example of seeking the will of God--and finding it.

No Indeed! I really AM NOT seeking an exception to His Word. I am seeking a fulfillment of it! In its entirety (all five folds)... without salvational add-ons (personal standards)... and that is fully operational in giftings and equipping saints for their ministries.

Can you direct me to such an organization in the Delaware area?

Fiyahstarter
12-18-2007, 12:58 PM
Absolutely...but if you are seeking an exception to His Word, what you find will be deception.

CareyM and her family are an example of seeking the will of God--and finding it.

I would LOVE to hear your testimony, CareyM... :o)

BrotherEastman
12-18-2007, 01:02 PM
No Indeed! I really AM NOT seeking an exception to His Word. I am seeking a fulfillment of it! In its entirety (all five folds)... without salvational add-ons (personal standards)... and that is fully operational in giftings and equipping saints for their ministries.

Can you direct me to such an organization in the Delaware area?
Deleware? What state is that in?:laffatu:slaphappy:winkgrin

Sister Alvear
12-18-2007, 01:04 PM
it is in the ware state...

Fiyahstarter
12-18-2007, 02:17 PM
aka Dela-Where?

Sister Alvear
12-18-2007, 02:40 PM
getting close to the answer.

LaVonne
12-18-2007, 02:58 PM
No Indeed! I really AM NOT seeking an exception to His Word. I am seeking a fulfillment of it! In its entirety (all five folds)... without salvational add-ons (personal standards)... and that is fully operational in giftings and equipping saints for their ministries.

Can you direct me to such an organization in the Delaware area?

I can! PM me if you'd like a name and address.

LaVonne
12-18-2007, 02:59 PM
I would LOVE to hear your testimony, CareyM... :o)

Uuuhhhh...it's really long and not entirely over, but as I just said pm me and I'll tell you a few things.

Michael Phelps
12-18-2007, 03:58 PM
It feels great to be a "necessary evil." :)

Gotta love that kind of appreciation. :)

Folks, let's not forget the original question posed by this thread:

It wasn't "Are pastors good people?"

It was "Can one be saved without a pastor?"

I'd just like to discuss the original question, and not turn this into a "pastor hating" thread, or "Us poor pastors, no one appreciates us".

Now, can one be saved without a pastor, lol?

dizzyde
12-18-2007, 04:02 PM
Folks, let's not forget the original question posed by this thread:

It wasn't "Are pastors good people?"

It was "Can one be saved without a pastor?"

I'd just like to discuss the original question, and not turn this into a "pastor hating" thread, or "Us poor pastors, no one appreciates us".

Now, can one be saved without a pastor, lol?

What is your answer, Mister Phelps?? :foottap :heeheehee
:cheer :rooting

Michael Phelps
12-18-2007, 04:07 PM
What is your answer, Mister Phelps?? :foottap :heeheehee
:cheer :rooting

My answer is that a person can be saved without a pastor. I am not a pastor hater, in fact I am an ex-pastor.

As CS has said, I believe the defining factor is that person' attitude toward a pastor that will determine their salvation.

But, I do not believe that you have to be a card carrying member of a church to be saved, any more than I believe that I have to go to another man to confess my sins.


I'll elaborate further when I have more time, lol.

dizzyde
12-18-2007, 04:11 PM
My answer is that a person can be saved without a pastor. I am not a pastor hater, in fact I am an ex-pastor.

As CS has said, I believe the defining factor is that person' attitude toward a pastor that will determine their salvation.

But, I do not believe that you have to be a card carrying member of a church to be saved, any more than I believe that I have to go to another man to confess my sins.


I'll elaborate further when I have more time, lol.

OK, as long as you aren't ducking your own question!! :lol :highfive

Michael Phelps
12-18-2007, 04:14 PM
Ok, I'll elaborate a bit here since I have a few minutes, lol.

To say that a person has to have a pastor to be saved is to say that the pastor has power to save a person. And the scripture clearly states that we must all "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling".

To say that a person must have a pastor to hear from God is to violate Jesus statement that "The Holy Ghost will lead and guide us into ALL truth".

To say that we need to submit to a pastor in every situation would cause us sometimes to violate Peter's edict that "we ought to obey God rather than man", because sometimes the pastor feels strongly opposed to what we feel led in the Spirit to do.

Now, does God sanction pastors? Of course. And I believe in having spiritual advisors in my life.

But, in many cases in scripture, when people were seeking a word from God, He sent them to people who were NOT their pastor, i.e. Saul on the road to Damascus was sent to Ananias, who was not his pastor, nor would he become Saul's pastor.

The Ethiopian eunuch was searching for truth, and God picked Philip up and set him down to reveal truth, and then Philip was gone again.

And the list goes on and on....

I fear that many people have deified the pastorate to the point where they can't buy a home, a car, make a move, do anything without the pastor's blessing, and that's a shame.

Are there good pastors out there? Most certainly!

But, a good pastor is smart enough to know that the folks under his care can hear from God directly, and they don't need him to be saved.

Just my humble opinion.........I now anxiously await the onslaught, lol.

LaVonne
12-18-2007, 04:16 PM
Ok, I'll elaborate a bit here since I have a few minutes, lol.

To say that a person has to have a pastor to be saved is to say that the pastor has power to save a person. And the scripture clearly states that we must all "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling".

To say that a person must have a pastor to hear from God is to violate Jesus statement that "The Holy Ghost will lead and guide us into ALL truth".

To say that we need to submit to a pastor in every situation would cause us sometimes to violate Peter's edict that "we ought to obey God rather than man", because sometimes the pastor feels strongly opposed to what we feel led in the Spirit to do.

Now, does God sanction pastors? Of course. And I believe in having spiritual advisors in my life.

But, in many cases in scripture, when people were seeking a word from God, He sent them to people who were NOT their pastor, i.e. Saul on the road to Damascus was sent to Ananias, who was not his pastor, nor would he become Saul's pastor.
The Ethiopian eunuch was searching for truth, and God picked Philip up and set him down to reveal truth, and then Philip was gone again.

And the list goes on and on....

I fear that many people have deified the pastorate to the point where they can't buy a home, a car, make a move, do anything without the pastor's blessing, and that's a shame.

Are there good pastors out there? Most certainly!

But, a good pastor is smart enough to know that the folks under his care can hear from God directly, and they don't need him to be saved.

Just my humble opinion.........I now anxiously await the onslaught, lol.

Do you think this is where the five-fold ministry comes in? Since they all work together (or are supposed to) for the perfecting of the saints.

rgcraig
12-18-2007, 04:16 PM
No onslaught from here.....

Michael Phelps
12-18-2007, 04:23 PM
Do you think this is where the five-fold ministry comes in? Since they all work together (or are supposed to) for the perfecting of the saints.

Absolutely.

I strongly believe that God puts people in our lives to speak faith into us at any given time. I believe that it's good to belong to a group of believers with a man of God who can preach and teach that faith and Word.

I'm most certainly not against attending church, but I do have a problem with the concept that a person will go to hell if they don't have a pastor.

There's just no scripture to back it up.

rgcraig
12-18-2007, 04:26 PM
Also, they won't go to hell if they have to miss a service or two either.

I really hate the pressure put on people to be there every time the doors are open. Sometimes there are just circumstances that will not allow you to be there for everything and to feel the guilt of not being there is unnecessary - IMHO.

LaVonne
12-18-2007, 04:27 PM
Also, they won't go to hell if they have to miss a service or two either.

I really hate the pressure put on people to be there every time the doors are open. Sometimes there are just circumstances that will not allow you to be there for everything and to feel the guilt of not being there is unnecessary - IMHO.

Very good Renda! I am really tired of the pressure of always having to be at every single service, having to call in when you can't make it and having to have a very good excuse for it.

dizzyde
12-18-2007, 04:29 PM
Ok, I'll elaborate a bit here since I have a few minutes, lol.

To say that a person has to have a pastor to be saved is to say that the pastor has power to save a person. And the scripture clearly states that we must all "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling".

To say that a person must have a pastor to hear from God is to violate Jesus statement that "The Holy Ghost will lead and guide us into ALL truth".

To say that we need to submit to a pastor in every situation would cause us sometimes to violate Peter's edict that "we ought to obey God rather than man", because sometimes the pastor feels strongly opposed to what we feel led in the Spirit to do.

Now, does God sanction pastors? Of course. And I believe in having spiritual advisors in my life.

But, in many cases in scripture, when people were seeking a word from God, He sent them to people who were NOT their pastor, i.e. Saul on the road to Damascus was sent to Ananias, who was not his pastor, nor would he become Saul's pastor.

The Ethiopian eunuch was searching for truth, and God picked Philip up and set him down to reveal truth, and then Philip was gone again.

And the list goes on and on....

I fear that many people have deified the pastorate to the point where they can't buy a home, a car, make a move, do anything without the pastor's blessing, and that's a shame.

Are there good pastors out there? Most certainly!

But, a good pastor is smart enough to know that the folks under his care can hear from God directly, and they don't need him to be saved.

Just my humble opinion.........I now anxiously await the onslaught, lol.

I respect your humble opinion! I would have to say, overall, I agree with you.

I perhaps a little more strongly than you believe that there is a need for pastoral authority in a Christians life.

Do I think that you can be saved without a pastor? I do not believe that having a pastor saves you, absolutely not. Do I believe strongly in the need to have a pastor if you are saved. Yes.

Do I believe that you are supposed to blindly follow a pastor, unquestioning and unknowingly? Unconditionally, NO. As you have stated, the Bible gives us a clear directive on our responsibility in the matter.

So, that is my humble opinion! :toofunny

Michael Phelps
12-18-2007, 04:30 PM
Very good Renda! I am really tired of the pressure of always having to be at every single service, having to call in when you can't make it and having to have a very good excuse for it.

Well, if you would pray thru, and get right with God, and obey, you wouldn't have this problem!!!!!!!!!:jolly:jolly

JUST KIDDING!

Michael Phelps
12-18-2007, 04:31 PM
I respect your humble opinion! I would have to say, overall, I agree with you.

I perhaps a little more strongly than you believe that there is a need for pastoral authority in a Christians life.

Do I think that you can be saved without a pastor? I do not believe that having a pastor saves you, absolutely not. Do I believe strongly in the need to have a pastor if you are saved. Yes.

Do I believe that you are supposed to blindly follow a pastor, unquestioning and unknowingly? Unconditionally, NO. As you have stated, the Bible gives us a clear directive on our responsibility in the matter.

So, that is my humble opinion! :toofunny

Very well said, Dizzy!

dizzyde
12-18-2007, 04:33 PM
Very well said, Dizzy!

Well thanks, kind sir! lol!

LaVonne
12-18-2007, 04:40 PM
Well, if you would pray thru, and get right with God, and obey, you wouldn't have this problem!!!!!!!!!:jolly:jolly

JUST KIDDING!

I know...I have a problem with submission...:christmoose

LadyChocolate
12-18-2007, 04:47 PM
1 Timothy 2:15 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety

I've given birth so I am saved! With or without a pastor, one stepper or 3 stepper. in a 3 legged race with high heels on... I am eternally secure............
















well, if I take this scripture out of context! lololol
:bliss:nutso:mal:mal

dizzyde
12-18-2007, 04:55 PM
I know...I have a problem with submission...:christmoose

CM, you are just soooooo rebellious!!! LOL!! :toofunny

LaVonne
12-18-2007, 06:58 PM
CM, you are just soooooo rebellious!!! LOL!! :toofunny

I know it!!! :santathumb

Michael Phelps
12-19-2007, 08:28 AM
I know it!!! :santathumb

You know, rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hehehe....:jolly

LaVonne
12-19-2007, 08:31 AM
You know, rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hehehe....:jolly

Yes, I did know that...thanks for the reminder! :thwak

Sister Alvear
12-19-2007, 08:59 AM
girl, you line up! ha...

LaVonne
12-19-2007, 09:02 AM
girl, you line up! ha...

:santathumb Yes, Ma'am!

Love you Sis. Alvear!

Sister Alvear
12-19-2007, 09:04 AM
Love you too!

dizzyde
12-19-2007, 11:42 AM
You know, rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hehehe....:jolly

My mother took great joy in quoting that scripture to me, often... Is that saying something to me??? Hmmm... :toofunny

Michael Phelps
12-19-2007, 12:30 PM
My mother took great joy in quoting that scripture to me, often... Is that saying something to me??? Hmmm... :toofunny

Hahaha, so did mine!

Hmmm, maybe that's the way I am today?

JoeBandy
06-19-2018, 08:45 AM
bump

Tithesmeister
06-19-2018, 10:02 AM
ALL pastors are hinderances and one should never have a pastor they will only abuse you and you will get hurt. Instead get your instructions from forum gurus that have never built a church.

Have you ever built a church?

1ofthechosen
06-19-2018, 12:44 PM
VHebrews 13:17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

Who is the text speaking about? Hebrews 13:7 "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation."
Why? 1 Corinthians 1:21 "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

Song of the day:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTtrdZ4kWvE

So my question is this: if you don't have anyone that rules over you that you submit to, who is going to give account for your soul? He said Hes coming back for His bride His church. He's not sending the short bus to anyones house personally to come and get them outside of His plan.

Old Paths
06-19-2018, 12:48 PM
Have you ever built a church?

Have you?


:happydance

aegsm76
06-19-2018, 12:53 PM
Have you ever built a church?

The post was meant to be ironic/sarcastic.

Tithesmeister
06-19-2018, 01:47 PM
Have you?


:happydance

Have you?

:happydance

Tithesmeister
06-19-2018, 02:04 PM
ALL pastors are hinderances and one should never have a pastor they will only abuse you and you will get hurt. Instead get your instructions from forum gurus that have never built a church.

Have you ever built a church?

The post was meant to be ironic/sarcastic.


I get that, but the question still stands. It is neither ironic nor sarcastic, it is sincere.

Old Paths
06-19-2018, 02:07 PM
Have you?


Yes, twice.
:happydance

Yes, twice.

Now...you?

Tithesmeister
06-19-2018, 02:14 PM
Yes, twice.

Now...you?

Explain to me exactly how you built a church. What does building a church mean to you?

Amanah
06-19-2018, 02:23 PM
Explain to me exactly how you built a church. What does building a church mean to you?

Please be kind to this Brother.

Tithesmeister
06-19-2018, 02:23 PM
VHebrews 13:17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

Who is the text speaking about? Hebrews 13:7 "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation."
Why? 1 Corinthians 1:21 "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

Song of the day:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTtrdZ4kWvE

So my question is this: if you don't have anyone that rules over you that you submit to, who is going to give account for your soul? He said Hes coming back for His bride His church. He's not sending the short bus to anyones house personally to come and get them outside of His plan.

Can you help me out here? I don't see any reference to a pastor in any of these scriptures.

Tithesmeister
06-19-2018, 02:25 PM
Please be kind to this Brother.

Was I being unkind? I am simply trying to understand.what building a church means to him.

Old Paths
06-19-2018, 02:28 PM
Explain to me exactly how you built a church. What does building a church mean to you?

Well, OK.

I'm bragging on Jesus here, OK?

By the help of the Lord, with no org. backing, I went into a city that had no Apostolic witness, started in my living room with my family and God built a self supporting congregation. We built one sanctuary, that seated about 100 that we very quickly out grew and then a second sanctuary, all in about 8 years.

ANY GLORY goes to God.

Tithesmeister
06-19-2018, 02:34 PM
Well, OK.

I'm bragging on Jesus here, OK?

By the help of the Lord, with no org. backing, I went into a city that had no Apostolic witness, started in my living room with my family and God built a self supporting congregation. We built one sanctuary, that seated about 100 that we very quickly out grew and then a second sanctuary, all in about 8 years.

ANY GLORY goes to God.

Thank you. That is the answer I was looking for.

Now how many churches have you built?

JoeBandy
06-19-2018, 02:36 PM
Thank you. That is the answer I was looking for.

Now how many churches have you built?
Technically... none however I have done some welding and painting on a couple!!:happydance

Tithesmeister
06-19-2018, 02:41 PM
Technically... none however I have done some welding and painting on a couple!!:happydance

I think you mean you have welded and painted on a church building. The church building is built by men, the church is built by Jesus . . . right?


Bible, King James Version

Matt.16
[18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Old Paths
06-19-2018, 02:42 PM
Thank you. That is the answer I was looking for.

Now how many churches have you built?

A pastor who went to visit the home of a congregation member. Upon arriving there the minister discovered his host was an avid gardener, and was only too delighted to show his pastor around the garden, a magnificent sea of greens, purples, blues, whites, yellows and pinks. Wanting to set the relationship off on a strong, positive note, the pastor said, “Praise God for the beauty of his handiwork”.

But his host replied in a somewhat offended tone, “Now pastor, don’t go giving all the credit to God. You should have seen this garden when the Almighty had it to himself!”


:D

Tithesmeister
06-19-2018, 02:43 PM
A pastor who went to visit the home of a congregation member. Upon arriving there the minister discovered his host was an avid gardener, and was only too delighted to show his pastor around the garden, a magnificent sea of greens, purples, blues, whites, yellows and pinks. Wanting to set the relationship off on a strong, positive note, the pastor said, “Praise God for the beauty of his handiwork”.

But his host replied in a somewhat offended tone, “Now pastor, don’t go giving all the credit to God. You should have seen this garden when the Almighty had it to himself!”


:D

I like it.

Amanah
06-19-2018, 02:43 PM
A pastor who went to visit the home of a congregation member. Upon arriving there the minister discovered his host was an avid gardener, and was only too delighted to show his pastor around the garden, a magnificent sea of greens, purples, blues, whites, yellows and pinks. Wanting to set the relationship off on a strong, positive note, the pastor said, “Praise God for the beauty of his handiwork”.

But his host replied in a somewhat offended tone, “Now pastor, don’t go giving all the credit to God. You should have seen this garden when the Almighty had it to himself!”


:D

:highfive

Old Paths
06-19-2018, 02:47 PM
I like it.

:highfive

Thank you.

In the Plan of God, He has always used dedicated men and women to do His will.

The problem arises when we refuse to acknowledge His hand in our lives.

Proverbs 16:18.. Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall...

Tithesmeister
06-19-2018, 02:53 PM
The OP was "Can you be saved without a pastor?"

There are several points that could be made about this subject. Here is just one.

The five fold ministry is for the church, right? The church is already saved, right?

Let's go to the word.

Bible, King James Version

Eph.4 Verses 11 to 12

[11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Which of these groups are NOT saved already?

Tithesmeister
06-19-2018, 02:55 PM
Thank you.

In the Plan of God, He has always used dedicated men and women to do His will.

The problem arises when we refuse to acknowledge His hand in our lives.

Proverbs 16:18.. Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall...

That'll preach!

:yourock:thumbsup:thumbsup

Old Paths
06-19-2018, 02:57 PM
The OP was "Can you be saved without a pastor?"

There are several points that could be made about this subject. Here is just one.

The five fold ministry is for the church, right? The church is already saved, right?

Let's go to the word.

Bible, King James Version

Eph.4 Verses 11 to 12

[11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Which of these groups are NOT saved already?


I have said in the past that there are really only two reasons for the Church/Ministry to be in existence today.


1. To save the lost.

2. To keep the saved from being lost.




.

1ofthechosen
06-19-2018, 03:05 PM
Can you help me out here? I don't see any reference to a pastor in any of these scriptures.

Ummm. Who are these? "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God."

Who is this "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding." Because He's foreshadowing something to come and you cant believe He's saying for the Jews and not the Gentiles. He's talking about the Apostles and the church. Anytime it refers to them it's referring to us, because we've been grafted in.

There is a 5 fold ministry but there is also Pastors in His church after His own heart. These watch for your soul. So on judgement day do you believe that they are going to have a panel of Evangelist, prophets, teachers, a apostle, and a pastor to give account for you?

Well if you believe that ain't wonder what Evangelist Benincasa is going to say on your behalf?

1ofthechosen
06-19-2018, 03:08 PM
The OP was "Can you be saved without a pastor?"

There are several points that could be made about this subject. Here is just one.

The five fold ministry is for the church, right? The church is already saved, right?

Let's go to the word.

Bible, King James Version

Eph.4 Verses 11 to 12

[11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Which of these groups are NOT saved already?

Huh? No one who is alive is saved yet. You were saved, you are saved, you are being saved.

Tithesmeister
06-19-2018, 03:15 PM
Huh? No one who is alive is saved yet. You were saved, you are saved, you are being saved.

And . . . you are contradicting yourself.

Old Paths
06-19-2018, 03:16 PM
Huh? No one who is alive is saved yet. You were saved, you are saved, you are being saved.

Amen!

My old Dad used to say that "salvation is conditional" and he was "living a saved life" and as long as he "lived the saved life he would be SAVED when the Lord came".

Makes sense to me....

Evang.Benincasa
06-19-2018, 03:28 PM
And . . . you are contradicting yourself.

No he didn't contradict himself.

Tithesmeister
06-19-2018, 03:46 PM
Ummm. Who are these? "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God."

Please show me where it says anywhere that a pastor has the rule over you, or me. Then explain how this passage of scripture below reconciles with your doctrine.

Bible, King James Version

Matt.20 Verses 25 to 28

[25] But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
[26] But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
[27] And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
[28] Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many


Who is this "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding." Because He's foreshadowing something to come and you cant believe He's saying for the Jews and not the Gentiles. He's talking about the Apostles and the Bible,

I'm glad you asked. God is talking to the Hebrews who were about to be taken into Babylonian captivity. If you can produce scripture saying otherwise, I'd be glad to see it.



Anytime it refers to them it's referring to us, because we've been grafted in.



In that case you'd better get to sacrificing bulls and goats.




There is a 5 fold ministry but there is also Pastors in His church after His own heart. These watch for your soul. So on judgement day do you believe that they are going to have a panel of Evangelist, prophets, teachers, a apostle, and a pastor to give account for you?

The soul that you reference above is not referring to the immortal soul IMO. It is referring to your life. This is distinguished from the rational immortal soul, according to Strong's. It appears to mean human life, as it does many times, but not always in the Bible.


Well if you believe that ain't wonder what Evangelist Benincasa is going to say on your behalf?

I love Brother Benincsa, but I have a much greater advocate than he.

Tithesmeister
06-19-2018, 03:51 PM
No he didn't contradict himself.

It certainly appears that way to me. He said "No one who is alive is saved yet", and then he said "You are saved". What am I missing?

How about what Jesus said?

Luke.7
[50] And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

This woman was alive, and she was saved.

1ofthechosen
06-19-2018, 04:16 PM
It certainly appears that way to me. He said "No one who is alive is saved yet", and then he said "You are saved". What am I missing?

How about what Jesus said?

Luke.7
[50] And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

This woman was alive, and she was saved.

What did Paul say? Phillipians 3:10-11 "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; [11] If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead."

So what is the great Apostle Paul saying in the bold? That he might be saved. This was late in his life, and if he wasn't saved yet, at this point he is still saying "if by any means I might attain." So what does that tell you? No one has received salvation yet while still living. If the Apostle Paul said this I know I'm in the book.

1ofthechosen
06-19-2018, 04:20 PM
Please show me where it says anywhere that a pastor has the rule over you, or me. Then explain how this passage of scripture below reconciles with your doctrine.

Bible, King James Version

Matt.20 Verses 25 to 28

[25] But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
[26] But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
[27] And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
[28] Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many



I'm glad you asked. God is talking to the Hebrews who were about to be taken into Babylonian captivity. If you can produce scripture saying otherwise, I'd be glad to see it.



In that case you'd better get to sacrificing bulls and goats.




The soul that you reference above is not referring to the immortal soul IMO. It is referring to your life. This is distinguished from the rational immortal soul, according to Strong's. It appears to mean human life, as it does many times, but not always in the Bible.



I love Brother Benincsa, but I have a much greater advocate than he.

All this you said is all ridiculous. So you believe that the teacher, prophet, evangelist, and the apostle, and pastor will give account for your soul in a committee setting to God? And secondly who are they, do you even have 1 of the 5 fold ministry you submit to in your walk? I know the answer but I'm waiting.

Tithesmeister
06-19-2018, 04:34 PM
I have looked up some statistics. I think it is interesting.

Out of the five-fold ministries, which are mentioned the most in the Bible?

Which are mentioned the least?

I'm going to break it down into OT and NT to provide a little bit of context for they who think it matters (which would include me). I am also going to search the base word, not all variations, just to make it easy.

Eph.4
[11] And he gave some, apostle;s and some, prophet;s and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Apostle

OT- 0

NT- 83

Prophet

OT- 327

NT- 163

Evangelist

OT- 0

NT- 3

Teacher

OT- 7

NT- 13

Pastor

OT- 8

NT- 1

It appears that prophet takes the award for most mentions, and . . .

Pastors take the award for the least mentioned of the five-fold ministries by a VERY large margin. In fact if pastor was mentioned one fewer time in the NT, it would not have been mentioned at all. The Evangelist (as in Benincasa) gets mentioned three times as many as the pastor in the NT!?

Does it seem to anyone that we are out of balance here?

Anyway, I thought it was interesting.

Evang.Benincasa
06-19-2018, 04:37 PM
It certainly appears that way to me. He said "No one who is alive is saved yet", and then he said "You are saved". What am I missing?

How about what Jesus said?

Luke.7
[50] And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

This woman was alive, and she was saved.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51Vw-2539yQ&ab_channel=D.C.Lake

1ofthechosen
06-19-2018, 04:42 PM
I have looked up some statistics. I think it is interesting.

Out of the five-fold ministries, which are mentioned the most in the Bible?

Which are mentioned the least?

I'm going to break it down into OT and NT to provide a little bit of context for they who think it matters (which would include me). I am also going to search the base word, not all variations, just to make it easy.

Eph.4
[11] And he gave some, apostle;s and some, prophet;s and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Apostle

OT- 0

NT- 83

Prophet

OT- 327

NT- 163

Evangelist

OT- 0

NT- 3

Teacher

OT- 7

NT- 13

Pastor

OT- 8

NT- 1

It appears that prophet takes the award for most mentions, and . . .

Pastors take the award for the least mentioned of the five-fold ministries by a VERY large margin. In fact if pastor was mentioned one fewer time in the NT, it would not have been mentioned at all. The Evangelist (as in Benincasa) gets mentioned three times as many as the pastor in the NT!?

Does it seem to anyone that we are out of balance here?

Anyway, I thought it was interesting.

The Apostle is written in place of the Pastors because they were the Bishops to these churches. The letters and the book of Acts is all we have. You act like there is some detailed account of the church besides the book of Acts.

So since we don't live in the time of the Apostles this of course would go to a Pastor. Tell me how many Prophets you know? Who are they and do you submit to them? So do you submit to the Evangelist? Because you alluded the true question.

Tithesmeister
06-19-2018, 04:45 PM
All this you said is all ridiculous. So you believe that the teacher, prophet, evangelist, and the apostle, and pastor will give account for your soul in a committee setting to God?

No, brother. Jesus is my mediator and my advocate. Allow me to quote scripture.

Bible, King James Version

1John.2
[1] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

And . . .


Bible, King James Version

Gal.3
[19] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
[20] Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
1Tim.2
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Heb.8
[6] But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb.9
[15] And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb.12
[24] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



And secondly who are they, do you even have 1 of the 5 fold ministry you submit to in your walk? I know the answer but I'm waiting.

Brother, if you know the answer, by all means give it. There is no need to ask.


I'm waiting . . .

Tithesmeister
06-19-2018, 04:47 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51Vw-2539yQ&ab_channel=D.C.Lake

That's an oldie and a goodie.

Tithesmeister
06-19-2018, 04:58 PM
The Apostle is written in place of the Pastors because they were the Bishops to these churches. The letters and the book of Acts is all we have. You act like there is some detailed account of the church besides the book of Acts.

So since we don't live in the time of the Apostles this of course would go to a Pastor. Tell me how many Prophets you know? Who are they and do you submit to them? So do you submit to the Evangelist? Because you alluded the true question.

Please quote scripture?

I'm waiting . . .

It seems that the author of Ephesians repeated himself by putting apostles and pastors in the same verse? Is that what you're saying?

How about the prophets? Are there no more prophets?

Maybe we should take a break. I think your blood pressure is getting elevated.

1ofthechosen
06-19-2018, 05:08 PM
Please quote scripture?

I'm waiting . . .

It seems that the author of Ephesians repeated himself by putting apostles and pastors in the same verse? Is that what you're saying?

How about the prophets? Are there no more prophets?

Maybe we should take a break. I think your blood pressure is getting elevated.


Theres definitely prophets but as I've seen it it can be anybody. I've met people who say they are in the office of a prophet, but a true one is rare. So anybody with the Holy Ghost can be used to prophesy, teach, evangelize, but only one can be the Pastor or the Apostle in the church.

Just the question stands which one are you submissive too? Or do you disregard Hebrews 13:17 altogether?

houston
06-19-2018, 06:02 PM
Theres definitely prophets but as I've seen it it can be anybody. I've met people who say they are in the office of a prophet, but a true one is rare. So anybody with the Holy Ghost can be used to prophesy, teach, evangelize, but only one can be the Pastor or the Apostle in the church.

Just the question stands which one are you submissive too? Or do you disregard Hebrews 13:17 altogether?

There are no Apostles today.

1ofthechosen
06-19-2018, 08:46 PM
There are no Apostles today.

That's what I was saying so then what's left? Only the pastor unless you are going to submit yourself to the Evangelist? But thanks for saying that, this guy is going to want scripture for it though... But case closed..

Old Paths
06-19-2018, 08:48 PM
There are no Apostles today.

Why?

Tithesmeister
06-19-2018, 08:50 PM
That's what I was saying so then what's left? Only the pastor unless you are going to submit yourself to the Evangelist? But thanks for saying that, this guy is going to want scripture for it though... But case closed..

I want scripture. Don’t get me wrong, I’m interested in your opinion, but when it comes to doctrine it’s line upon line, precept upon precept. Hey we’ve all got opinions!

1ofthechosen
06-19-2018, 08:51 PM
I want scripture. Don’t get me wrong, I’m interested in your opinion, but when it comes to doctrine it’s line upon line, precept upon precept. Hey we’ve all got opinions!

Ok in context of Hebrews 13:17 you present Ephesians 4:11-12. Now tell me who you are going to submit to if not this Pastor and use scripture to prove it...

houston
06-19-2018, 08:55 PM
Why?

Because they laid the foundation. No other foundation is to be laid.

Michael The Disciple
06-19-2018, 09:01 PM
What did Paul say? Phillipians 3:10-11 "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; [11] If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead."

So what is the great Apostle Paul saying in the bold? That he might be saved. This was late in his life, and if he wasn't saved yet, at this point he is still saying "if by any means I might attain." So what does that tell you? No one has received salvation yet while still living. If the Apostle Paul said this I know I'm in the book.

:yourock

Old Paths
06-19-2018, 09:01 PM
Because they laid the foundation. No other foundation is to be laid.

Who is the THEY that you speak of?

1ofthechosen
06-20-2018, 06:28 AM
I was listening to this morning, and Tithesmeister I wanted to share it with you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwptVracldE

Steve Epley
06-20-2018, 08:39 AM
There are over 20 apostles noted in the NT only the twelve and Paul were foundational Apostles. There are Apostles today.

Esaias
06-20-2018, 08:42 AM
There are over 20 apostles noted in the NT only the twelve and Paul were foundational Apostles. There are Apostles today.

:thumbsup

Michael The Disciple
06-20-2018, 08:55 AM
There are over 20 apostles noted in the NT only the twelve and Paul were foundational Apostles. There are Apostles today.

:thumbsup

I agree. Its just a matter of identifying them.

Apostolic1ness
06-20-2018, 09:03 AM
:thumbsup

I agree. Its just a matter of identifying them.

why would we need to identify them?

Tithesmeister
06-20-2018, 10:16 AM
I was listening to this morning, and Tithesmeister I wanted to share it with you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwptVracldE

Thanks brother, I am listening now. I realize that you have asked some questions that I need to answer, and I will do my best to do so, however I need you to address some things as well. Lets begin with this . . .

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Please show me where it says anywhere that a pastor has the rule over you, or me. Then explain how this passage of scripture below reconciles with your doctrine.

Bible, King James Version

Matt.20 Verses 25 to 28

[25] But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
[26] But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
[27] And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
[28] Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many

Does this passage agree with the doctrine you are advocating?

I just want an honest answer. I'm not trying to trap you, I'm only trying to teach.

Please give me an honest answer and then we can move on.

Esaias
06-20-2018, 10:23 AM
why would we need to identify them?

So we can start tithing to them? A shekel and a half, even?

:heeheehee

Tithesmeister
06-20-2018, 10:26 AM
So we can start tithing to them? A shekel and a half, even?

:heeheehee

There would be plenty of self-qualified volunteers if that were the case.

Tithesmeister
06-20-2018, 12:40 PM
Ok in context of Hebrews 13:17 you present Ephesians 4:11-12. Now tell me who you are going to submit to if not this Pastor and use scripture to prove it...

Okay. You are determined that the application of this scripture is spiritual. I believe it is not. I'm going to present some thoughts as to why I believe what I do.

There are some key words in the passage that I believe you have a twisted definition of, or perhaps they have different definitions and you are using them in the wrong context. These words are; rule (as in they that rule over you) and souls (they watch for your souls). I have these words in bold to make it as clear as possible what I am referring to.

Bible, King James Version

Heb.13
[17] Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

This may be tricky because I'm going to say what I think you believe (and most other apostolics) and then I'm going to juxtapose what I believe is really being said.

If I understand you position correctly (please feel free to say otherwise) you believe that the pastor (singular) is in authority over the local church. Furthermore he rules the church. Rules is a pretty strong word here, but it is the one used in the verse.

You further believe that the pastor is watching for my soul and yours. Soul according to YOUR definition is our immortal spirit that will live forever.

On the understanding that you have, which I hope I have accurately portrayed above, you believe that this scripture verse teaches me to submit to my pastor. Is this what you believe?

The problem I have with this doctrine is that it is in direct conflict with the words of Jesus that I quoted before. Allow me to post them again . . .

[25] But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
[26] But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
[27] And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
[28] Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

I remind you that this is about exercising authority, or dominion, or as used in the scripture you are quoting, "rule" over them.

It is impossible to reconcile these two passages with the definition that you are giving the one in Hebrews. They are miles apart. They are not even close to being in harmony. Something HAS to be wrong.

There are two possibilities:

The Bible is contradicting itself. I believe that the Bible is consistent. I don't believe God speaks out of both sides of His mouth. I am going to rule this possibility as an impossibility.

The other possibility is that you (and most of Christianity) has misinterpreted the passage in Hebrews. This possibility is possible, and given the alternative (that the words of Jesus contradict Hebrews) I am going to say that this HAS to be the case.

I have studied this because it did appear to be a conflict. I looked to Strongs for definitions of the key words I mentioned earlier. Rule is a strong word. It means to: lead, for example to command (with official authority) figuratively to deem ie, consider: account, (be) chief, count esteem , governor, rule over, suppose, think.

Rule is, according to Strongs describing a person of high official capacity. A governor?! I don't think this is referring to any spiritual capacity.

Watching for your souls is another part of the phrase that is misinterpreted in this passage. Souls in this context refers to our life. It does not refer to our spirit that will live eternally. When God breathed into Adam and he "became a living soul", this was referring to him becoming a live person. His life was in him. Many times the soul refers to lives in the Bible.

So when you consider the passage in the proper context, Obey they that have rule over you, means secular authority. Our equivalent would be the government. They watch for your souls; this means that they are to protect your very life. How they accomplish this may be through the military or law enforcement. They will be held accountable is self explanatory.

This is how I interpret these verses.

aegsm76
06-20-2018, 12:53 PM
tm - you interpret as you want them to sound.
How about looking at the verses in context.

20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedees children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Jesus was dealing with an issue among the twelve.
It has parallels with how we should treat one another, but has nothing to do with church government.
There are "assigned" leader ship roles in the church, per the scripture.
If you read the book of Acts, you will see this.
The apostle Paul was a definite leader who also TOLD PEOPLE HOW TO LIVE.
How could he do this if everyone was equal.
There was a meeting of the leaders of the Church to debate how to counsel the Gentiles which were saved. Not the entire church body, but the leaders.
Now, I do not know you, so pardon me for saying this.
But, almost without fail when someone takes the stands you are taking on this thread, it is because they have a problem with authority.
So, tell me, do you have a home church that you attend and someone who is a pastor or leader in your life?

Tithesmeister
06-20-2018, 03:07 PM
tm - you interpret as you want them to sound.
How about looking at the verses in context.

I don't think so. I have studied a passage of scripture that does not harmonize or reconcile with another on the surface. I then studied the Strongs concordance to see what it translated to in the Greek. The definitions do not equate with the relationship of the pastor and saint.



20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedees children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Jesus was dealing with an issue among the twelve.
It has parallels with how we should treat one another, but has nothing to do with church government.
There are "assigned" leader ship roles in the church, per the scripture.
If you read the book of Acts, you will see this.
The apostle Paul was a definite leader who also TOLD PEOPLE HOW TO LIVE.
How could he do this if everyone was equal.
There was a meeting of the leaders of the Church to debate how to counsel the Gentiles which were saved. Not the entire church body, but the leaders.


This is correct. Where were the pastors? They are not mentioned. The scriptural model of the early church was for oversight by the elders (plural) not pastor (singular). When Paul came to Jerusalem he called for the elders (plural) of the church at Ephesus to meet him at Miletus.

Acts.20
[17] And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church

Why didn't he ever mention the pastor? Notice that the elders are plural?
The setting for this meeting was that Paul was never going to see them again. This was his last meeting with them face to face, and they knew it was to be. It was a VERY important meeting. So why wasn't the pastor mentioned if he was the head of the church of Ephesus? Because the elders were given oversight of the church.

I have a question for you (okay a compound one). Who was the pastor of the church of Jerusalem? Colosse? Rome? Phillipi? Macedonia? Corinth? Galatia? Laodicea? Philadelphia? And on and on I could go. Do you know? If you do, please share scripture saying so. Also, do you have any record of a pastor being ordained in the Bible? Please share. How about elders? (plural) Yes!!! There is a record of elders being ordained, but not pastors.

Now, I do not know you, so pardon me for saying this.
But, almost without fail when someone takes the stands you are taking on this thread, it is because they have a problem with authority.
So, tell me, do you have a home church that you attend and someone who is a pastor or leader in your life?

You are asking if I have a problem with authority. I don't believe I do. Do you have a problem with quoting scripture that the pastor has authority over me? I'd like to see it if you do. Are you a pastor? I think that I remember that you are. Could you quote scripture about submitting? I believe in submitting. Who does the Bible say we are to submit to?

Brother, you seem to want to discount the passage of scripture about being a servant if you are wanting to be the chief.

What does this verse mean to you?

27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Does a servant have authority over his master?

Please respond.

By the way, I do have a problem with false doctrine, so if you have scripture to back up what you're saying, that would be appreciated. Okay?

And . . . the answer to the last questions about the home church and the leader/pastor? Yes and yes.

aegsm76
06-20-2018, 04:25 PM
I don't think so. I have studied a passage of scripture that does not harmonize or reconcile with another on the surface. I then studied the Strongs concordance to see what it translated to in the Greek. The definitions do not equate with the relationship of the pastor and saint.




This is correct. Where were the pastors? They are not mentioned. The scriptural model of the early church was for oversight by the elders (plural) not pastor (singular). When Paul came to Jerusalem he called for the elders (plural) of the church at Ephesus to meet him at Miletus.

Acts.20
[17] And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church

Why didn't he ever mention the pastor? Notice that the elders are plural?
The setting for this meeting was that Paul was never going to see them again. This was his last meeting with them face to face, and they knew it was to be. It was a VERY important meeting. So why wasn't the pastor mentioned if he was the head of the church of Ephesus? Because the elders were given oversight of the church.

I have a question for you (okay a compound one). Who was the pastor of the church of Jerusalem? Colosse? Rome? Phillipi? Macedonia? Corinth? Galatia? Laodicea? Philadelphia? And on and on I could go. Do you know? If you do, please share scripture saying so. Also, do you have any record of a pastor being ordained in the Bible? Please share. How about elders? (plural) Yes!!! There is a record of elders being ordained, but not pastors.



You are asking if I have a problem with authority. I don't believe I do. Do you have a problem with quoting scripture that the pastor has authority over me? I'd like to see it if you do. Are you a pastor? I think that I remember that you are. Could you quote scripture about submitting? I believe in submitting. Who does the Bible say we are to submit to?

Brother, you seem to want to discount the passage of scripture about being a servant if you are wanting to be the chief.

What does this verse mean to you?

27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Does a servant have authority over his master?

Please respond.

By the way, I do have a problem with false doctrine, so if you have scripture to back up what you're saying, that would be appreciated. Okay?

And . . . the answer to the last questions about the home church and the leader/pastor? Yes and yes.

You seem to have missed my entire point.
The above passage is not about church government.
It is about dealing with an issue among the twelve.

Tithesmeister
06-20-2018, 05:11 PM
You seem to have missed my entire point.
The above passage is not about church government.
It is about dealing with an issue among the twelve.

I disagree. It is about relationships among the disciples, and the desire to have a hierarchy. How can you deny that?

Remember the two wanted to be elevated above the others?

Jesus said if you want to be chief, be a servant. We have been talking about authority of the pastor, but you can't see the relevance? Read it again. It is MOST relevant!



[25] But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
[26] But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
[27] And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant

Let me get another reference . . .

1 Peter 5

[1] The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
[2] Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
[3] Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock

Does this qualify as church government?

Peter equates himself to the elders. Notice that he is NOT addressing the pastor (singular) but elders (plural). He is an elder also. He says to feed the flock that is AMONG you, not the flock that is BENEATH you. Do you get it? He is not touting his authority, he instead puts himself on their level.

Then he says to lead by example, he doesn't mention authority. He specifically says for them NOT to lord over the flock.

How about you give scripture where the pastor has authority over the saints, that should be easy! (It will not be.)

1ofthechosen
06-20-2018, 05:42 PM
[QUOTE=Tithesmeister;1536110
I have a question for you (okay a compound one). Who was the pastor of the church of Jerusalem? Colosse? Rome? Phillipi? Macedonia? Corinth? Galatia? Laodicea? Philadelphia? And on and on I could go. Do you know? If you do, please share scripture saying so. Also, do you have any record of a pastor being ordained in the Bible? Please share. How about elders? (plural) Yes!!! There is a record of elders being ordained, but not pastors.

[/QUOTE]



Look in the book of Revelations 1:16 "And he had IN HIS RIGHT HAND SEVEN STARS: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength." What meaneth these seven stars? Go to verse 19 "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."

And we know angel in these passages is referring to by definition "especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor. "
Now I can prove it go with me to 2:18-23 "And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; [19] I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. [20] Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. [21] And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. [22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. [23] And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."

Now where I'm going with this? Because this is what the Pastor is announcing to the rest of the church, you know how I know? Now verse 24 "BUT UNTO YOU I SAY, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden." Who is this talking to when it says "unto you I say?" The Pastor by definition the messenger of the house. This has nothing to do with a angelic being, and Verse 24 proves that because an angel can't follow false doctrine, and not sin. And if they sin there is no repentance provided.

So now this all fits with Hebrews 13:7"Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation." Who did Revelations show this to be, the angel of the house "the pastor." Now verse 17 is clear "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." Verse 7 shows who they are that have rule over you, and so does Revelations Reveal what verse 7 is speaking of, a pastor.

Now why it doesnt talk more of this, IDK. But the NT is the times of the Apostles and that's what it focuses on. It doesn't go into detail about the Pastor because in it's definition it shows headship. Pastor or "poimen" means "the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church, of the overseers of the Christian assemblies." Which this is given by the Bishop, and the Apostles were the Bishops per Acts 1:20.

The Pastor is also a Elder btw in the church. They can be said interchangeably. There has to be a leader and the word Pastor is self explanatory if we see it one time in scripture its making itself clear what it means, by definition.

Threre is no ordination because the true Pastor of Gods church is appointed by God. The same way the Apostles were, hand picked. As my Pastor is, not that all pastors in buildings are. Which that would be safe to say that's also not Gods church, despite what it says on the door!

Have a goodnight we've had this conversation before. No reason to rehash it. But its real simple if you don't want to see it you won't.

Apostolic1ness
06-21-2018, 06:24 AM
Look in the book of Revelations 1:16 "And he had IN HIS RIGHT HAND SEVEN STARS: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength." What meaneth these seven stars? Go to verse 19 "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."

And we know angel in these passages is referring to by definition "especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor. "
Now I can prove it go with me to 2:18-23 "And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; [19] I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. [20] Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. [21] And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. [22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. [23] And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."

Now where I'm going with this? Because this is what the Pastor is announcing to the rest of the church, you know how I know? Now verse 24 "BUT UNTO YOU I SAY, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden." Who is this talking to when it says "unto you I say?" The Pastor by definition the messenger of the house. This has nothing to do with a angelic being, and Verse 24 proves that because an angel can't follow false doctrine, and not sin. And if they sin there is no repentance provided.

So now this all fits with Hebrews 13:7"Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation." Who did Revelations show this to be, the angel of the house "the pastor." Now verse 17 is clear "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." Verse 7 shows who they are that have rule over you, and so does Revelations Reveal what verse 7 is speaking of, a pastor.

Now why it doesnt talk more of this, IDK. But the NT is the times of the Apostles and that's what it focuses on. It doesn't go into detail about the Pastor because in it's definition it shows headship. Pastor or "poimen" means "the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church, of the overseers of the Christian assemblies." Which this is given by the Bishop, and the Apostles were the Bishops per Acts 1:20.

The Pastor is also a Elder btw in the church. They can be said interchangeably. There has to be a leader and the word Pastor is self explanatory if we see it one time in scripture its making itself clear what it means, by definition.

Threre is no ordination because the true Pastor of Gods church is appointed by God. The same way the Apostles were, hand picked. As my Pastor is, not that all pastors in buildings are. Which that would be safe to say that's also not Gods church, despite what it says on the door!

Have a goodnight we've had this conversation before. No reason to rehash it. But its real simple if you don't want to see it you won't.

Amen!

Aquila
06-21-2018, 07:23 AM
Can a person be saved without a Pastor?

I have been reading the threads on salvation that have been up lately and I just want to scream....You can go thru every step that is out there and your salvation is still unsure......There is really know way to know if you are saved or not.

I am only going off my experience in attending a UPC church all of my life. Absolute submission to the Pastor was KEY to your salvation. If you felt God leading you in a certain way on a "matter" you still needed to have the approval of the Pastor, if they didn't think it was right they expected you to follow there opinion and yes, your salvation was at stake....there are so many weird mind games that were played....and they are all tied into salvation, if you don't adhere to what they wanted then you are in rebellion, and we know that nobody will make it to heaven in a rebellious state!

I have been away from that influence for several years. I have a real concern for family that is still in the church. I am very aware of the "Godly Fear" they live in. They are not sure of there salvation. They don't think on thier own....they think through a filter of "What would my pastor think"..not what would God think....

Yes. A person can be saved and not have a pastor. However, pastors are a gift from God to assist in teaching, mentoring, counseling, and prayer. They are one of the greatest gifts God has given us. Without them, our spiritual growth and understanding can be stunted. Without them, there is no one there to pull us up and encourage us when we fall. Without them, there is no one there to offer loving correction when we are wrong. And without a pastor, one can more easily fall prey to spiritual forces that seek to destroy the soul. One's spiritual walk in Christ can be at a serious disadvantage if they do not have a pastor. One can never reach their full potential, or experience the fullness of all the blessings in Christ without a pastor. One can more easily fall away and be lost without a pastor.

So, try to always have a pastor or seasoned elder to turn to. Someone who loves you and will check up on you if you don't show up, call, or touch base with them. Pick an individual of prayer, not one of strong personal opinions. A man of prayer will walk with you through anything. Men of opinion will abandon you the moment you do something that appears to be outside of the bounds of their opinions. Men (and women) of prayer tend to know Jesus more personally. And they can help you to know Jesus that intimately too.

Tithesmeister
06-21-2018, 09:07 AM
Yes. A person can be saved and not have a pastor. However, pastors are a gift from God to assist in teaching, mentoring, counseling, and prayer. They are one of the greatest gifts God has given us. Without them, our spiritual growth and understanding can be stunted. Without them, there is no one there to pull us up and encourage us when we fall. Without them, there is no one there to offer loving correction when we are wrong. And without a pastor, one can more easily fall prey to spiritual forces that seek to destroy the soul. One's spiritual walk in Christ can be at a serious disadvantage if they do not have a pastor. One can never reach their full potential, or experience the fullness of all the blessings in Christ without a pastor. One can more easily fall away and be lost without a pastor.

So, try to always have a pastor or seasoned elder to turn to. Someone who loves you and will check up on you if you don't show up, call, or touch base with them. Pick an individual of prayer, not one of strong personal opinions. A man of prayer will walk with you through anything. Men of opinion will abandon you the moment you do something that appears to be outside of the bounds of their opinions. Men (and women) of prayer tend to know Jesus more personally. And they can help you to know Jesus that intimately too.

Amen.

I might add that the we should perhaps ask the question; Can we be saved without a:

teacher?

Apostle?

Prophet?

Evangelist?

I think we have created a culture that emphasizes the gift of the pastor, and almost ignores the other four forms of ministry that are found in the same verse.

It makes you wonder . . . Why do we do this? Are they less important?


Or . . . Are they not as well promoted in the church?

I reiterate that the Bible mentions pastors the least of the five-fold ministry, yet I believe the church mentions them the most. No worries . . . we only have it backwards . . . that's all.

New Testament mentions pastors once, the least of all of the five-fold ministry.

Evangelist comes in second to the least at triple the amount of mentions.

Prophet is mentioned one hundred sixty three times as often.

Hmmmm

Does anybody dispute that this is true?

Does anybody have a guess as to why this is so?

Amanah
06-21-2018, 09:10 AM
the wackiness of this forum is proof we need Teachers and Evangelists to guide us.

Aquila
06-21-2018, 09:17 AM
Amen.

I might add that the we should perhaps ask the question; Can we be saved without a:

teacher?

Apostle?

Prophet?

Evangelist?

I think we have created a culture that emphasizes the gift of the pastor, and almost ignores the other four forms of ministry that are found in the same verse.

It makes you wonder . . . Why do we do this? Are they less important?


Or . . . Are they not as well promoted in the church?

I reiterate that the Bible mentions pastors the least of the five-fold ministry, yet I believe the church mentions them the most. No worries . . . we only have it backwards . . . that's all.

New Testament mentions pastors once, the least of all of the five-fold ministry.

Evangelist comes in second to the least at triple the amount of mentions.

Prophet is mentioned one hundred sixty three times as often.

Hmmmm

Does anybody dispute that this is true?

Does anybody have a guess as to why this is so?

Excellent point.

The current congregational model of most American churches, with the pastor leading the flock as the sole office of spiritual guidance was an innovation of John Calvin and the Reformers.

In the NT church there were elders (plural). And each elder had a specific gifting to pastor, evangelize, teach, start churches, or speak the oracles of God through the Holy Spirit. They led the body in a more collegial fashion. And so a single individual never had total control of the body. The five fold ministry gifts are spiritual gifts, not offices or positions. The church had elders... and the elders served the body through these giftings.

Tithesmeister
06-21-2018, 09:18 AM
You seem to have missed my entire point.
The above passage is not about church government.
It is about dealing with an issue among the twelve.

You seem to avoid answering questions . . . and to be allergic to quoting scripture . . .

or is it that there is no scripture?

The common theme that you share with 1ofthechosen is that you have neither one quoted a scripture that backs what you are teaching.

The reason is not that you have no knowledge of scripture . . . it is because there is no scripture to have knowledge of.

The scripture that you both quote, does not mention the word pastor, but you are sure that it means that. I don't believe it does.

Tithesmeister
06-21-2018, 09:19 AM
the wackiness of this forum is proof we need Teachers and Evangelists to guide us.


You said a mouthful sister!

Apostolic1ness
06-21-2018, 09:30 AM
Amen.

I might add that the we should perhaps ask the question; Can we be saved without a:

teacher?

Apostle?

Prophet?

Evangelist?

I think we have created a culture that emphasizes the gift of the pastor, and almost ignores the other four forms of ministry that are found in the same verse.

It makes you wonder . . . Why do we do this? Are they less important?


Or . . . Are they not as well promoted in the church?

I reiterate that the Bible mentions pastors the least of the five-fold ministry, yet I believe the church mentions them the most. No worries . . . we only have it backwards . . . that's all.

New Testament mentions pastors once, the least of all of the five-fold ministry.

Evangelist comes in second to the least at triple the amount of mentions.

Prophet is mentioned one hundred sixty three times as often.

Hmmmm

Does anybody dispute that this is true?

Does anybody have a guess as to why this is so?
They are all for the perfecting of the saints. They all work together in the body for our edification. If these ministries are for our perfecting, would we be made perfect without any of them? This comparison is not wise.

Amanah
06-21-2018, 09:40 AM
There are gifted Men that God places in our lives to do the following:

2 Timothy 4 English Standard Version (ESV)

Preach the Word

4 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound[a] teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

Amanah
06-21-2018, 09:44 AM
2 Timothy 2:24-26 English Standard Version (ESV)

24 And the Lord's servant[a] must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

teaching with patience and kindness, Bro Blume, and Bro Esaias are the epitome of patience and kindness when teaching.

Aquila
06-21-2018, 09:49 AM
2 Timothy 2:24-26 English Standard Version (ESV)

24 And the Lord's servant[a] must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

teaching with patience and kindness, Bro Blume, and Bro Esaias are the epitome of patience and kindness when teaching.

Great point.

Teaching with patience and gentleness.

Tithesmeister
06-21-2018, 11:04 AM
Look in the book of Revelations 1:16 "And he had IN HIS RIGHT HAND SEVEN STARS: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength." What meaneth these seven stars? Go to verse 19 "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."

And we know angel in these passages is referring to by definition "especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor. "
Now I can prove it go with me to 2:18-23 "And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; [19] I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. [20] Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. [21] And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. [22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. [23] And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."

Now where I'm going with this? Because this is what the Pastor is announcing to the rest of the church, you know how I know? Now verse 24 "BUT UNTO YOU I SAY, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden." Who is this talking to when it says "unto you I say?" The Pastor by definition the messenger of the house. This has nothing to do with a angelic being, and Verse 24 proves that because an angel can't follow false doctrine, and not sin. And if they sin there is no repentance provided.

So now this all fits with Hebrews 13:7"Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation." Who did Revelations show this to be, the angel of the house "the pastor." Now verse 17 is clear "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." Verse 7 shows who they are that have rule over you, and so does Revelations Reveal what verse 7 is speaking of, a pastor.

Now why it doesnt talk more of this, IDK. But the NT is the times of the Apostles and that's what it focuses on. It doesn't go into detail about the Pastor because in it's definition it shows headship. Pastor or "poimen" means "the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church, of the overseers of the Christian assemblies." Which this is given by the Bishop, and the Apostles were the Bishops per Acts 1:20.

The Pastor is also a Elder btw in the church. They can be said interchangeably. There has to be a leader and the word Pastor is self explanatory if we see it one time in scripture its making itself clear what it means, by definition.

Threre is no ordination because the true Pastor of Gods church is appointed by God. The same way the Apostles were, hand picked. As my Pastor is, not that all pastors in buildings are. Which that would be safe to say that's also not Gods church, despite what it says on the door!

Have a goodnight we've had this conversation before. No reason to rehash it. But its real simple if you don't want to see it you won't.

Brother . . . if you didn't see any need to re-hash the subject, why did you bring it up?

Could it be that you wanted to re-hash it, but didn't want me to?

Let's review some facts about your post.

Revelation does not mention the word pastor. But you see pastor in Revelation. You see pastor where there is no pastor.

Revelation does mention the seven stars in the right hand of Jesus, which declares them to be angels, which you in turn perceive to be pastors. The commentary that you quote says that they are implied to be pastors.

I understand that Revelation includes a lot of symbolism.

It also has a warning about adding to or taking away from the words of this book.

18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I don't mean to be harsh, but it seems to me you are sorely tempted to add the word pastor, and subtract the word angel. Just a thought.

Let's look at an example of symbolism. Do you remember the brazen serpent? It was a symbol of the crucifixion of Jesus.

Numbers 21
[6] And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
[7] Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
[8] And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
[9] And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

The brazen serpent in the wilderness was a symbol of the crucifixion. As the serpent was lifted up from the earth, so was the Son of man to be lifted up. And as the people of Israel were physically saved of the poison of the serpents' bite, we are saved spiritually by Jesus who was lifted up when He hung on the cross.

The serpent in the wilderness was symbolic of, or a type of Jesus. It is simple, straightforward, and there is no confusion.

John 3
[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
[14] And , even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness so must the Son of man be lifted up:

In this example, this (the serpent) symbolizes that (Jesus' crucifixion). Let's compare this to your theory that the stars symbolize pastors. With your example, the stars are said to symbolize angels which you in turn hypothesize to be a symbol of pastors. Do you see the extra step that you have added. This (the stars), symbolize that (angels), which in turn symbolize the other (pastors). We have a symbol of a symbol here, instead of a symbol of the pastor.

I am aware of the theory, that the angels symbolize pastors, however it is very weak in my opinion, when you have nothing in scripture to make a direct connection, as I have done in my example above. If you are convinced, maybe you should go for it. I am not convinced.

Another thing regarding the posting of Phil White sermon yesterday. I listened to it and there is one thing that did concern me. At the end of his sermon he had the young people kneel before the pastors. He is careful to say that this should not be considered worshiping man, however the very fact that he had to say so is perhaps an indication that it was ill-advised. What would the apostles do, because, you know we are apostolics. Right?

Acts 10
25] And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
[26] But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

Here we have an example of an apostle discouraging a man from bowing down to him, and there (in the case of Phil White) we have an example of someone requesting young people to kneel before their pastors. I am not trying to make more of it than it is, but the symbolism is hard to ignore!

Amanah
06-21-2018, 11:14 AM
Here we have an example of an apostle discouraging a man from bowing down to him, and there (in the case of Phil White) we have an example of someone requesting young people to bow before their pastors. I am not trying to make more of it than it is, but the symbolism is hard to ignore!

really? I'm surprised he didn't die and get eaten by worms like Herod in Acts 12:23.

houston
06-21-2018, 11:17 AM
really? I'm surprised he didn't die and get eaten by worms like Herod in Acts 12:23.

Why? That stuff doesn’t happen.

houston
06-21-2018, 11:20 AM
People were bowing before their pastor???

Amanah
06-21-2018, 11:20 AM
Why? That stuff doesn’t happen.

it reminds me of when I was a kid and had to kiss some catholic guy's ring, I thought he was a jerk.

Tithesmeister
06-21-2018, 11:46 AM
People were bowing before their pastor???

I edited it to change the word to kneel, because it is a better choice of words. Go to the end of the Phil White sermon that was posted earlier, and listen to the last five minutes. You can judge for yourself.

Tithesmeister
06-21-2018, 11:48 AM
They are all for the perfecting of the saints. They all work together in the body for our edification. If these ministries are for our perfecting, would we be made perfect without any of them? This comparison is not wise.

Why?

houston
06-21-2018, 12:14 PM
I edited it to change the word to kneel, because it is a better choice of words. Go to the end of the Phil White sermon that was posted earlier, and listen to the last five minutes. You can judge for yourself.

That was gross.

Apostolic1ness
06-21-2018, 01:01 PM
Why?

The direction conversations tend to go with these comparisons is not good. Since the Pastor of a church generally has a closer relationship to congregation its easy to lose a certain level of respect for them that should be maintained. verses the honor and respect we would show toward one that we knew was a prophet or apostle or an evangelist, and for some reason a teacher well their the almost the bottom of the totem pole. its obvious to me that the church does not honor everyone the same. (I am of Paul, well I am of Apollos).
As far as im concerned everyone that labors in the kingdom and in the word are elders and are worthy of double honor.
I would hate to know that because of my comparisons within the ministry would cause someone to lose respect or honor for their leadership.
Not just because I am a preacher, but for the sake of the church there must be honor and respect for those chosen to be in the ministry.IMAO

Tithesmeister
06-21-2018, 01:03 PM
The direction conversations tend to go with these comparisons is not good. Since the Pastor of a church generally has a closer relationship to congregation its easy to lose a certain level of respect for them that should be maintained. verses the honor and respect we would show toward one that we knew was a prophet or apostle or an evangelist, and for some reason a teacher well their the almost the bottom of the totem pole. its obvious to me that the church does not honor everyone the same. (I am of Paul, well I am of Apollos).
As far as im concerned everyone that labors in the kingdom and in the word are elders and are worthy of double honor.
I would hate to know that because of my comparisons within the ministry would cause someone to lose respect or honor for their leadership.
Not just because I am a preacher, but for the sake of the church there must be honor and respect for those chosen to be in the ministry.

Thank you. This is a good answer.

Amanah
06-21-2018, 01:28 PM
This passage does not even mention pastors, but instead apostles, prophets, and teachers.

1 Cor 12
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Tithesmeister
06-21-2018, 04:32 PM
This passage does not even mention pastors, but instead apostles, prophets, and teachers.

1 Cor 12
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

This is a wonderful passage of scripture contained in this chapter. Not to diminish from your post, which is excellent, but to add to it, consider the meaning of verse 23 . . .

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

Isn't this what I have been trying to say? We pile 90% of the honor on the pastors, and the Bible says whichever we consider to be "less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour".

Maybe we should be looking to honor the custodian, but we instead heap all of our honor on the pastor.

Hey, I didn't say it, but I did quote it. It's Bible!!!

1ofthechosen
06-21-2018, 04:39 PM
People were bowing before their pastor???

At the altar bro its shenanigans.

Amanah
06-21-2018, 04:43 PM
This is a wonderful passage of scripture contained in this chapter. Not to diminish from your post, which is excellent, but to add to it, consider the meaning of verse 23 . . .

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

Isn't this what I have been trying to say? We pile 90% of the honor on the pastors, and the Bible says whichever we consider to be "less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour".

Maybe we should be looking to honor the custodian, but we instead heap all of our honor on the pastor.

Hey, I didn't say it, but I did quote it. It's Bible!!!

the issue is that one man can't do it all, it is better to have a group of elders working together to run the church, isn't it? this way more are sharing in responsibility and one isn't getting burnt out.

Tithesmeister
06-21-2018, 04:45 PM
At the altar bro its shenanigans.

What exactly are you referring to as shenanigans?

And who is performing the alleged shenanigans?

Tithesmeister
06-21-2018, 04:47 PM
the issue is that one man can't do it all, it is better to have a group of elders working together to run the church, isn't it? this way more are sharing in responsibility and one isn't getting burnt out.

That is the model of the early apostolic church. It seems that they thought so.

Evang.Benincasa
06-21-2018, 04:49 PM
What exactly are you referring to as shenanigans?

And who is performing the alleged shenanigans?


Irish sionnachuighim (“I play the fox”).

1ofthechosen
06-21-2018, 04:50 PM
This is a wonderful passage of scripture contained in this chapter. Not to diminish from your post, which is excellent, but to add to it, consider the meaning of verse 23 . . .

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

Isn't this what I have been trying to say? We pile 90% of the honor on the pastors, and the Bible says whichever we consider to be "less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour".

Maybe we should be looking to honor the custodian, but we instead heap all of our honor on the pastor.

Hey, I didn't say it, but I did quote it. It's Bible!!!

Ok who are the sheep and who is the shepherd. In context of 1 Peter 5 Peter is calling himself a elder because he was a Bishop the Apostle of the churches. Writing to the Elders meaning this was written to plural churches for they all were poimen Pastors. Over the sheep. Not everybody is a pastor or shepherd or Elder.

And what I wrote about Revelations was not a commentary but a definition. I showed proof in chapter 2 that was a person it was written to in verse 24 it shows it plainly "BUT UNTO YOU I SAY, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden." Who is the UNTO YOU then?

The word Pastor by definition means "the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church, of the overseers of the Christian assemblies." So stop with the shenanigans, how our you going to refute this?

Tithesmeister
06-21-2018, 04:58 PM
Ok who are the sheep and who is the shepherd. In context of 1 Peter 5 Peter is calling himself a elder because he was a Bishop the Apostle of the churches. Writing to the Elders meaning this was written to plural churches for they all were poimen Pastors. Over the sheep. Not everybody is a pastor or shepherd or Elder.

And what I wrote about Revelations was not a commentary but a definition. I showed proof in chapter 2 that was a person it was written to in verse 24 it shows it plainly "BUT UNTO YOU I SAY, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden." Who is the UNTO YOU then?

The word Pastor by definition means "the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church, of the overseers of the Christian assemblies." So stop with the shenanigans, how our you going to refute this?

Brother . . .

The word pastor is NOT there. Nor is ANY word that is used in lieu of pastor elsewhere in the Bible. You added it, in spite of the scripture I posted rebuking adding to, or subtracting from the book of Revelation.

I refute the addition AND the assumption that this is a pastor referred to here. You are symbolizing a symbol, then assuming the symbol you symbolized is a symbol for something else. It is confusing just typing it out.

Did you read my example of clear-cut symbolism in my earlier post to you?

1ofthechosen
06-21-2018, 05:04 PM
Brother . . .

The word pastor is NOT there. Nor is ANY word that is used in lieu of pastor elsewhere in the Bible. You added it, in spite of the scripture I posted rebuking adding to, or subtracting from the book of Revelation.

I refute the addition AND the assumption that this is a pastor referred to here. You are symbolizing a symbol, then assuming the symbol you symbolized is a symbol for something else. It is confusing just typing it out.

Did you read my example of clear-cut symbolism in my earlier post to you?

Angel defines by strong as "a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor" I added nothing its G32 Strongs Number but explain chapter 218-24. Who is this ":BUT UNTO YOU I SAY, and unto the rest in Thyatira." If I was adding something id have something to worry about, but it says the same thing about those trying to subtract from it so heed your own rebuke.

Apostolic1ness
06-21-2018, 05:04 PM
Brother . . .

The word pastor is NOT there. Nor is ANY word that is used in lieu of pastor elsewhere in the Bible. You added it, in spite of the scripture I posted rebuking adding to, or subtracting from the book of Revelation.

I refute the addition AND the assumption that this is a pastor referred to here. You are symbolizing a symbol, then assuming the symbol you symbolized is a symbol for something else. It is confusing just typing it out.

Did you read my example of clear-cut symbolism in my earlier post to you?
In the book of rev who is being referred to as the angel of the churches?

Tithesmeister
06-21-2018, 05:04 PM
Ok who are the sheep and who is the shepherd.

Lest I be guilty of leaving your question unanswered.

The sheep are the church.

There is no shepherd (singular) there are shepherds. Remember in the verse you are referring to. he calls them elders (plural).

1ofthechosen
06-21-2018, 05:08 PM
In the book of rev who is being referred to as the angel of the churches?

Go read every example but Chapter 2:18-24 shows a distinction. Because a angelic being can't be compromising with false doctrine, and not be in sin. And it's not talking about John so who is it talking about when its says "but unto you I say"? Strongs concordance says plainly pastor or messenger. Apostolic1ness read it close and you tell me. I know your not biased against leadership.

All the Apostles besides John were dead at this point, I told him the NT was written in the times of the Apostles, but this and the book of Hebrews were written later so they convey the plan of having a pastor as we see clearly in Hebrews 13:7 giving the context for verse 17.

The definition of Pastor "Poimen" says enough in Ephesians 4:11 because it denotes authority.

1ofthechosen
06-21-2018, 05:10 PM
Lest I be guilty of leaving your question unanswered.

The sheep are the church.

There is no shepherd (singular) there are shepherds. Remember in the verse you are referring to. he calls them elders (plural).

Thats written to churches Peter is a Apostle A bishop according to Acts 1:20 bishopric is a word for Bishop. If Judas was one so is he.

Tithesmeister
06-21-2018, 05:11 PM
In the book of rev who is being referred to as the angel of the churches?

I am not sure. The most probable answer is that they are heavenly beings, however, if I said that I know, I would be guilty of doing what I have said you're doing. Making a doctrine based on insufficient information. I don't want to do that.

:nod

1ofthechosen
06-21-2018, 05:19 PM
I am not sure. The most probable answer is that they are heavenly beings, however, if I said that I know, I would be guilty of doing what I have said you're doing. Making a doctrine based on insufficient information. I don't want to do that.

:nod

The text will explain it. It leaves no wonder for you. You are denying the obvious just like last time... Its alright simple fact is you cant be saved without a Pastor because you are outside of the body otherwise. The bible is plain there are those who have rule over you. Only in these modern days do we struggle with leadership. That's all the spirit of this age the mystery of iniquity works.

Apostolic1ness
06-21-2018, 05:35 PM
I am not sure. The most probable answer is that they are heavenly beings, however, if I said that I know, I would be guilty of doing what I have said you're doing. Making a doctrine based on insufficient information. I don't want to do that.

:nod

ok so lets use probability; is it more probable that an angel or heavenly being would have a necessity that a person write to them about problems in a church and how to correct it?
Or is it more probable that a person would need to be written to concerning problems in a church?
Is it more probable that an angel would relay the message written?
Or is it more probable that a person would relay the message written?

Tithesmeister
06-21-2018, 05:36 PM
Go read every example but Chapter 2:18-24 shows a distinction. Because a angelic being can't be compromising with false doctrine, and not be in sin. And it's not talking about John so who is it talking about when its says "but unto you I say"? Strongs concordance says plainly pastor or messenger.

So, by your own post here it could be a messenger and NOT a pastor?

Would that be accurate?

Please answer this question!

Is there a 50% chance that you are right?

And a 50% chance that you are wrong?

Would this be fair to say?

Is 50% close enough to establish doctrine?

This is not horseshoes or hand grenades we're talking about here!

Line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little, here a little . . .

Brother, if you are right, you are AT BEST hoping that you have a little, much less a little more. There is no line upon line, except in your imagination. The precept is fantasy. Come on back to reality. You'll sleep better at night. You are wanting this to be true SO badly that you are willing to settle for a 50% chance of a hint of being right?

And of course there is the following . . .

Are ALL messengers pastors?

Or were nearly ALL messengers NOT pastors?

Tell the truth, and stay in the church.

Then there is this . . .

Should I call you on the fact that my Strongs Concordance defines angel as used in this passage as a messenger; esp. an "angel" ; by implication a pastor:- angel, messenger.

You are very close to being deceptive here. You really seem to want to add to the book of Revelation. Be careful!

Tithesmeister
06-21-2018, 05:43 PM
The text will explain it. It leaves no wonder for you. You are denying the obvious just like last time... Its alright simple fact is you cant be saved without a Pastor because you are outside of the body otherwise. The bible is plain there are those who have rule over you. Only in these modern days do we struggle with leadership. That's all the spirit of this age the mystery of iniquity works.

Oh, you make it sound so good. What is missing? Scripture.

Have you once given scripture that will stand alone and show what you are saying?

Who has quoted more relevant scripture here?

Me? Or the two of you?

It must be frustrating to have absolutely NO scripture to say what you are touting. Not one passage that includes the word pastor.

Meanwhile I have given multiple examples of the churches being overseen by a plurality of elders. Have I not?

Please answer the question.

1ofthechosen
06-21-2018, 05:44 PM
So, by your own post here it could be a messenger and NOT a pastor?

Would that be accurate?

Please answer this question!

Is there a 50% chance that you are right?

And a 50% chance that you are wrong?

Would this be fair to say?

Is 50% close enough to establish doctrine?

This is not horseshoes or hand grenades we're talking about here!

Line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little, here a little . . .

Brother, if you are right, you are AT BEST hoping that you have a little, much less a little more. There is no line upon line, except in your imagination. The precept is fantasy. Come on back to reality. You'll sleep better at night. You are wanting this to be true SO badly that you are willing to settle for a 50% chance of a hint of being right?

And of course there is the following . . .

Are ALL messengers pastors?

Or were nearly ALL messengers NOT pastors?

Tell the truth, and stay in the church.

Then there is this . . .

Should I call you on the fact that my Strongs Concordance defines angel as used in this passage as a messenger; esp. an "angel" ; by implication a pastor:- angel, messenger.

You are very close to being deceptive here. You really seem to want to add to the book of Revelation. Be careful!

Lol you seem to want to take away from it, and you are trying to wiggle your way out. So now your saying he wrote it to the guy doing the announcements huh? I wonder if after that he announced the bake sale?

Old Paths
06-21-2018, 05:46 PM
OH dear, my heads hurting.


:blah:blah

Apostolic1ness
06-21-2018, 05:47 PM
Oh, you make it sound so good. What is missing? Scripture.

Have you once given scripture that will stand alone and show what you are saying?

Who has quoted more relevant scripture here?

Me? Or the two of you?

It must be frustrating to have absolutely NO scripture to say what you are touting. Not one passage that includes the word pastor.

Meanwhile I have given multiple examples of the churches being overseen by a plurality of elders. Have I not?

Please answer the question.

I must have missed something is this a debate on if the angel was a person or angelic being? Or is the question did every church have only one person as the leader? What am I missing here?

Amanah
06-21-2018, 05:47 PM
it seems it could be an angel or a person

Lexicon :: Strong's G32 - aggelos

ἄγγελος,, ὁ,
1. a messenger, envoy, one who is sent: Matthew 11:10; Luke 7:24, 27; Luke 9:52; Mark 1:2; James 2:25. (From Homer down.)
2. In the Scriptures, both of the Old Testament and of the New Testament, one of that host of heavenly spirits that, according alike to Jewish and Christian opinion, wait upon the monarch of the universe, and are sent by him to earth, now to execute his purposes (Matthew 4:6, 11; Matthew 28:2; Mark 1:13; Luke 16:22; Luke 22:43 (L brackets WH reject the passage); Acts 7:35;; Galatians 3:19, cf. Hebrews 1:14), now to make them known to men (Luke 1:11, 26; Luke 2:9ff; Acts 10:3; Acts 27:23;

Tithesmeister
06-21-2018, 05:57 PM
Lol you seem to want to take away from it, and you are trying to wiggle your way out. So now your saying he wrote it to the guy doing the announcements huh? I wonder if after that he announced the bake sale?

You are wanting to pretend that I am subtracting from the scripture? Show me one word I have left out. You are making this up.

In regards to the bold statement above, I would like you to show where I said this. If you can't show it, I am requesting an apology for your FALSE accusation.

Bake sale? Some body is getting desparate!

1ofthechosen
06-21-2018, 05:59 PM
it seems it could be an angel or a person

Lexicon :: Strong's G32 - aggelos

ἄγγελος,, ὁ,
1. a messenger, envoy, one who is sent: Matthew 11:10; Luke 7:24, 27; Luke 9:52; Mark 1:2; James 2:25. (From Homer down.)
2. In the Scriptures, both of the Old Testament and of the New Testament, one of that host of heavenly spirits that, according alike to Jewish and Christian opinion, wait upon the monarch of the universe, and are sent by him to earth, now to execute his purposes (Matthew 4:6, 11; Matthew 28:2; Mark 1:13; Luke 16:22; Luke 22:43 (L brackets WH reject the passage); Acts 7:35;; Galatians 3:19, cf. Hebrews 1:14), now to make them known to men (Luke 1:11, 26; Luke 2:9ff; Acts 10:3; Acts 27:23;

Read chapter 2:18-24 on verse 24 its says "BUT UNTO YOU I SAY, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden." Read the first part and then verse 24. Strongs says "a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor." It does say the angel of meaning that they had a place of headship. What do you think this definitely is not a angelic being

Tithesmeister
06-21-2018, 05:59 PM
I must have missed something is this a debate on if the angel was a person or angelic being? Or is the question did every church have only one person as the leader? What am I missing here?

I think both are relevant to the debate.

Evang.Benincasa
06-21-2018, 06:12 PM
OH dear, my heads hurting.


:blah:blah

Not like her's

http://dev.thenug.com/sites/default/pub/101014/thenug-qy13K1HruA.gif

Apostolic1ness
06-21-2018, 06:15 PM
I think both are relevant to the debate.

Ok could you answer my probability question?

Apostolic1ness
06-21-2018, 06:19 PM
I think both are relevant to the debate.

According to Paul, elders were to be ordained in every city by Titus.

Evang.Benincasa
06-21-2018, 06:23 PM
I must have missed something is this a debate on if the angel was a person or angelic being? Or is the question did every church have only one person as the leader? What am I missing here?

Revelation 19:10

Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.


The angel was a minister like John, who had the testimony of being saved just like John.

Amanah
06-21-2018, 06:25 PM
According to Paul, elders were to be ordained in every city by Titus.

How many in each city

Evang.Benincasa
06-21-2018, 06:27 PM
How many in each city

Just had a thought, as many as there were diaspora synagogues which converted to the Apostolic faith.

Apostolic1ness
06-21-2018, 06:27 PM
Revelation 19:10

Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.


The angel was a minister like John, who had the testimony of being saved just like John.

EB I think the debate is about the angel of the church in chapter 2 unless I totally missed it.

Tithesmeister
06-21-2018, 06:28 PM
ok so lets use probability;

See my previous post. The probability is 50% that it is a pastor, and 50% that it is a messenger. This probability is NOT based on Bible, but instead is based on a definition of angel found in Strong's. So we're going to roll the dice?
If you would admit that MOST messengers in the Bible were NOT pastors, that would be an exercise in honesty. How about you make that confession?


is it more probable that an angel or heavenly being would have a necessity that a person write to them about problems in a church and how to correct it?

How about this scenario. If we are going to use logic (which I'm not sure is appropriate in Revelation) we have Jesus giving a message to John, and then John is going to turn around and give it to pastors? I thought it was y'all's position that the pastors were messengers. Why didn't Jesus just give them the message?



Or is it more probable that a person would need to be written to concerning problems in a church?

For the church at Ephesus, we have already verified that they were overseen by a plurality of elders. I provided scripture. Remember? So that particular church would be addressed through the elders. We could assume that the other churches were as well, but it is not an assumption that the only direct oversight of the churches in the Bible that we have record of, is in every case a plurality of elders. No exceptions. NEVER is it mentioned that a pastor has this position. Feel free to quote scripture otherwise, or just ignore it, like you have been doing.


Is it more probable that an angel would relay the message written?

The probability is that the angel would be a heavenly being.


Or is it more probable that a person would relay the message written?

There are many persons that are NOT pastors. Am I right? So IF the messenger was a person, the probability would be that said person would NOT be a pastor.

Evang.Benincasa
06-21-2018, 06:29 PM
EB I think the debate is about the angel of the church in chapter 2 unless I totally missed it.

I'm sorry, I was just throwing that in there. I wasn't really following.

Sorry, please proceed. :)

Apostolic1ness
06-21-2018, 06:30 PM
How many in each city

No idea.

Tithesmeister
06-21-2018, 06:32 PM
According to Paul, elders were to be ordained in every city by Titus.

Amen

Apostolic1ness
06-21-2018, 06:35 PM
See my previous post. The probability is 50% that it is a pastor, and 50% that it is a messenger. This probability is NOT based on Bible, but instead is based on a definition of angel found in Strong's. So we're going to roll the dice?
If you would admit that MOST messengers in the Bible were NOT pastors, that would be an exercise in honesty. How about you make that confession?



How about this scenario. If we are going to use logic (which I'm not sure is appropriate in Revelation) we have Jesus giving a message to John, and then John is going to turn around and give it to pastors? I thought it was y'all's position that the pastors were messengers. Why didn't Jesus just give them the message?




For the church at Ephesus, we have already verified that they were overseen by a plurality of elders. I provided scripture. Remember? So that particular church would be addressed through the elders. We could assume that the other churches were as well, but it is not an assumption that the only direct oversight of the churches in the Bible that we have record of, is in every case a plurality of elders. No exceptions. NEVER is it mentioned that a pastor has this position. Feel free to quote scripture otherwise, or just ignore it, like you have been doing.



The probability is that the angel would be a heavenly being.



There are many persons that are NOT pastors. Am I right? So IF the messenger was a person, the probability would be that said person would NOT be a pastor.

So your saying that an angelic being would read the letter to the church?

Also could it be that a pastor is included in the elders of the church?

Amanah
06-21-2018, 06:40 PM
So your saying that an angelic being would read the letter to the church?

Also could it be that a pastor is included in the elders of the church?

Elders have the offices of evangelists, pastors and teachers, so its perfecting sensible to think that the letter was send to an elder.


Ephesians 4:11-16 King James Version (KJV)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: