View Full Version : Explanation of Changes in UPC
Harmony
12-18-2007, 10:26 PM
What explanation should the pastors give to there saints in regards to the recent changes?
If you are a UPC member and you do not have access to the internet and do not have tv you are not going to know that a large amount of the organization is no longer there.
I have alot of family spread out in one district, attending several different upc churches. Some of the Pastors are being forthright and letting there congregations know that there are "Issues" in the Organization.
There was a family get together. All of the changes where being discussed, in regards to the "fallout". It was the first time one of the family members had heard anything about any fallout of the UPC. They went straight to the senior pastor and asked about it. He said that there are no changes going on in the UPC, No fallout whatsoever. He said whoever is filling your head with that nonsense is just spreading gossip and rumors. This person was very upset and called her family that she had the discussion with and scolded them for trying to cause division by spreading gossip.
What do you think a pastor needs to tell their congregation in regards to the "changes in the UPC". If you are a Pastor of a UPC church would you let us in on how you are handling this with your saints. Are you talking to them about it? Are you just going to let everyone figure it out on there own..thru hearsay?
It doesn't really speak well of this minister. He has held some of the highest positions you can hold in the upc, and for him to say that nothing is going on...has to be...untruthful. I will not believe for one second that He doesn't know in detail what is going on....It irks me that he is not being forthright about it. This person will believe him over what anyone in her family would tell her.
SoCaliUPC
12-18-2007, 10:29 PM
They probably won't say anything. When that ridiculous affirmation statement thing went through and people left here and there as well....nothing was really said. Did not concern any of the "church" people...just those who are part of the "ministerial fellowship."
Hoovie
12-18-2007, 10:29 PM
I don't know that ANY are leaving in Missouri. What explanation is needed??
Joseph Miller
12-18-2007, 10:32 PM
I don't know that ANY are leaving in Missouri. What explanation is needed??
The pastor in Malden, MO is on the board of the Tulsa org.
What explanation should the pastors give to there saints in regards to the recent changes?
If you are a UPC member and you do not have access to the internet and do not have tv you are not going to know that a large amount of the organization is no longer there.I have alot of family spread out in one district, attending several different upc churches. Some of the Pastors are being forthright and letting there congregations know that there are "Issues" in the Organization.
There was a family get together. All of the changes where being discussed, in regards to the "fallout". It was the first time one of the family members had heard anything about any fallout of the UPC. They went straight to the senior pastor and asked about it. He said that there are no changes going on in the UPC, No fallout whatsoever. He said whoever is filling your head with that nonsense is just spreading gossip and rumors. This person was very upset and called her family that she had the discussion with and scolded them for trying to cause division by spreading gossip.
What do you think a pastor needs to tell their congregation in regards to the "changes in the UPC". If you are a Pastor of a UPC church would you let us in on how you are handling this with your saints. Are you talking to them about it? Are you just going to let everyone figure it out on there own..thru hearsay?
It doesn't really speak well of this minister. He has held some of the highest positions you can hold in the upc, and for him to say that nothing is going on...has to be...untruthful. I will not believe for one second that He doesn't know in detail what is going on....It irks me that he is not being forthright about it. This person will believe him over what anyone in her family would tell her.
Right off the bat your premise is flawed. It is not accurate to say that "a large part of the organization is no longer there". That is just false at this time. Might be true at some point in the future but certainly not right now.
Harmony
12-18-2007, 10:36 PM
I don't know that ANY are leaving in Missouri. What explanation is needed??
The district that I am referring to has a whole section pulling out.
Hoovie
12-18-2007, 10:39 PM
The pastor in Malden, MO is on the board of the Tulsa org.
Is he currently UPC?
Harmony
12-18-2007, 10:42 PM
Right off the bat your premise is flawed. It is not accurate to say that "a large part of the organization is no longer there". That is just false at this time. Might be true at some point in the future but certainly not right now.
True...It hasn't happened yet, but look at all of the endless conversations here on this forum alone about what if, how, and who. It is obviouse that there are big changes ahead for this organization.
What is frustrating is that this minister said there are no changes. Technically there are no changes......yet. But you and I both know this organization is in the process of a overhaul...it has been for several years. For this minister to tell this saint...nothing is happening is not being truthful. It made everyone else look like they were spreading lies. The things they were talking about where share by Their pastor to them. This is the division that is going on right now.
Joseph Miller
12-18-2007, 10:42 PM
Is he currently UPC?
Yes he is.
I don't know how he is going to fit in with the Tulsa group because he watches videos. I know this to be true. I have preached many times for him and been in his home.
Hoovie
12-18-2007, 10:54 PM
Yes he is.
I don't know how he is going to fit in with the Tulsa group because he watches videos. I know this to be true. I have preached many times for him and been in his home.
OK then. I stand corrected.
Harmony
12-18-2007, 10:58 PM
Is he currently UPC?
Now that you know...is there a needed explanation to the saints? What if half of the district was pulling out? What if 5 large churches were pulling out and joining the new organization.
Does the saint need an explanation? Maybe they don't, I just wonder how this is going to effect families that are spread out in a district and some of the churches pull out and some don't. It will happen and it will cause family relationships to struggle. I know that for a fact.
Hoovie
12-18-2007, 11:04 PM
Now that you know...is there a needed explanation to the saints? What if half of the district was pulling out? What if 5 large churches were pulling out and joining the new organization.
Does the saint need an explanation? Maybe they don't, I just wonder how this is going to effect families that are spread out in a district and some of the churches pull out and some don't. It will happen and it will cause family relationships to struggle. I know that for a fact.
Depending on the degree they will be affected then - yes. My hope would be that fellowship is not greatly hindered if their is division.
PastorD
12-18-2007, 11:07 PM
True...It hasn't happened yet, but look at all of the endless conversations here on this forum alone about what if, how, and who. It is obviouse that there are big changes ahead for this organization.
What is frustrating is that this minister said there are no changes. Technically there are no changes......yet. But you and I both know this organization is in the process of a overhaul...it has been for several years. For this minister to tell this saint...nothing is happening is not being truthful. It made everyone else look like they were spreading lies. The things they were talking about where share by Their pastor to them. This is the division that is going on right now.
Harmony....I just think the Thread question is a stretch. With this and your other thread it is obvious you have some issues with pastors.
Why would pastors take up good service time to discuss what may or may not be. This particular pastor may be a lot like me......if Organization and Hazelwood burn down tomorrow our church rolls on because we are not building an Organization we are building a church in our city.
Kings Kid
12-18-2007, 11:09 PM
I believe that most of that pastors that's pulling may not tell their saints. I think that my church might be one to leave and we have not been told a thing about anything about G.C. But interesting I enough my pastor just finished a bible study on sin and he did bring up t.v. in it a few times.
What explanation should the pastors give to there saints in regards to the recent changes?
If you are a UPC member and you do not have access to the internet and do not have tv you are not going to know that a large amount of the organization is no longer there.
I have alot of family spread out in one district, attending several different upc churches. Some of the Pastors are being forthright and letting there congregations know that there are "Issues" in the Organization.
There was a family get together. All of the changes where being discussed, in regards to the "fallout". It was the first time one of the family members had heard anything about any fallout of the UPC. They went straight to the senior pastor and asked about it. He said that there are no changes going on in the UPC, No fallout whatsoever. He said whoever is filling your head with that nonsense is just spreading gossip and rumors. This person was very upset and called her family that she had the discussion with and scolded them for trying to cause division by spreading gossip.
What do you think a pastor needs to tell their congregation in regards to the "changes in the UPC". If you are a Pastor of a UPC church would you let us in on how you are handling this with your saints. Are you talking to them about it? Are you just going to let everyone figure it out on there own..thru hearsay?
It doesn't really speak well of this minister. He has held some of the highest positions you can hold in the upc, and for him to say that nothing is going on...has to be...untruthful. I will not believe for one second that He doesn't know in detail what is going on....It irks me that he is not being forthright about it. This person will believe him over what anyone in her family would tell her.
"Simply we need to take up an offering."
We need a new church sign!!!
SoCaliUPC
12-18-2007, 11:27 PM
I believe that most of that pastors that's pulling may not tell their saints. I think that my church might be one to leave and we have not been told a thing about anything about G.C. But interesting I enough my pastor just finished a bible study on sin and he did bring up t.v. in it a few times.
...of course, it was also accompanied by the internet as well.....right?!? :santathumb
Felicity
12-18-2007, 11:32 PM
Depending on the degree they will be affected then - yes. My hope would be that fellowship is not greatly hindered if their is division.I can't see how it won't be.
Harmony
12-18-2007, 11:34 PM
Harmony....I just think the Thread question is a stretch. With this and your other thread it is obvious you have some issues with pastors.
Why would pastors take up good service time to discuss what may or may not be. This particular pastor may be a lot like me......if Organization and Hazelwood burn down tomorrow our church rolls on because we are not building an Organization we are building a church in our city.
I am a pk and former minsters wife. ALL of my family are in the upc. All in one district. In several different churches. An evengelist came to church A. and shared during a sermon of some of the "fallout" in the UPC. The family in church A told the family about it in Church B., they went to thier pastor and he was open with them and shared what he knew about the changes... As I already explained there was a get together and a family member from Church C had no clue of what was being shared with the other members...by pastors. She went to her pastor and he said there was nothing of the sort going on. The irony is that the pastor of church C. is a former superindendant and most definitely in the "know"...They attend GC as well as other organizational board meetings every year.
The family member from church C, was upset that the other family members would spread such gossip.... It wasn't gossip, it is a true fact that the UPC is going through a major change.
As far as you pointing out the fact that I have issues with pastors is incorrect. I have no issue with Pastors. I do not agree with the structure of the UPC in how they oversee thier leadership. I am a witness to many things that should not have taken place by leadership. If there was a structure known to the saints, a safe place to go to when they need guidance regarding the pastor...maybe some things wouldn't have happened....scares would not have to heal....deep scares. Go ahead and be-little me. Make me appear to be bitter and a in a backslidden state. It is much easier to do that, then to really look within the organization and see how it could be better.
Kings Kid
12-18-2007, 11:42 PM
...of course, it was also accompanied by the internet as well.....right?!? :santathumb
He I has a strong conviction on t.v. but not on the internet because I know he does use the net.
SoCaliUPC
12-18-2007, 11:46 PM
He I has a strong conviction on t.v. but not on the internet because I know he does use the net.
Thus the inconsistency. Genrally speaking, tt is not TV and Internet that are the "sin." To equate TV as sin...is adding to scripture. Generally speaking, at least be consistent with the "sin" that can be found on both....regulated (TV) and unregulated (internet).
Praxeas
12-18-2007, 11:54 PM
What explanation should the pastors give to there saints in regards to the recent changes?
If you are a UPC member and you do not have access to the internet and do not have tv you are not going to know that a large amount of the organization is no longer there.
I have alot of family spread out in one district, attending several different upc churches. Some of the Pastors are being forthright and letting there congregations know that there are "Issues" in the Organization.
There was a family get together. All of the changes where being discussed, in regards to the "fallout". It was the first time one of the family members had heard anything about any fallout of the UPC. They went straight to the senior pastor and asked about it. He said that there are no changes going on in the UPC, No fallout whatsoever. He said whoever is filling your head with that nonsense is just spreading gossip and rumors. This person was very upset and called her family that she had the discussion with and scolded them for trying to cause division by spreading gossip.
What do you think a pastor needs to tell their congregation in regards to the "changes in the UPC". If you are a Pastor of a UPC church would you let us in on how you are handling this with your saints. Are you talking to them about it? Are you just going to let everyone figure it out on there own..thru hearsay?
It doesn't really speak well of this minister. He has held some of the highest positions you can hold in the upc, and for him to say that nothing is going on...has to be...untruthful. I will not believe for one second that He doesn't know in detail what is going on....It irks me that he is not being forthright about it. This person will believe him over what anyone in her family would tell her.
Give the Thads Cell phone number :gift
PastorD
12-18-2007, 11:55 PM
I am a pk and former minsters wife. ALL of my family are in the upc. All in one district. In several different churches. An evengelist came to church A. and shared during a sermon of some of the "fallout" in the UPC. The family in church A told the family about it in Church B., they went to thier pastor and he was open with them and shared what he knew about the changes... As I already explained there was a get together and a family member from Church C had no clue of what was being shared with the other members...by pastors. She went to her pastor and he said there was nothing of the sort going on. The irony is that the pastor of church C. is a former superindendant and most definitely in the "know"...They attend GC as well as other organizational board meetings every year.
The family member from church C, was upset that the other family members would spread such gossip.... It wasn't gossip, it is a true fact that the UPC is going through a major change.
As far as you pointing out the fact that I have issues with pastors is incorrect. I have no issue with Pastors. I do not agree with the structure of the UPC in how they oversee thier leadership. I am a witness to many things that should not have taken place by leadership. If there was a structure known to the saints, a safe place to go to when they need guidance regarding the pastor...maybe some things wouldn't have happened....scares would not have to heal....deep scares. Go ahead and be-little me. Make me appear to be bitter and a in a backslidden state. It is much easier to do that, then to really look within the organization and see how it could be better.
Hamony, go re-read your posts. I am not "making your appear" as anything. The issue I take with you is that you lump all pastors into the one that did you wrong.
Kings Kid
12-19-2007, 12:04 AM
Thus the inconsistency. Genrally speaking, tt is not TV and Internet that are the "sin." To equate TV as sin...is adding to scripture. Generally speaking, at least be consistent with the "sin" that can be found on both....regulated (TV) and unregulated (internet).
I'm sorry I want to make it sound like he was adding to scripture
Harmony
12-19-2007, 12:05 AM
Hamony, go re-read your posts. I am not "making your appear" as anything. The issue I take with you is that you lump all pastors into the one that did you wrong.
How did you conclude that the pastors did ME wrong? You have no idea what I am refering to.
I certainly have not lumped every pastor into the mold of one wrong doer. I have been raised in this organization. I have seen alot! There are glaring problems in the structure of it. That is why it is falling apart. Remember it is only an Organization. It is not "The Church".
BoredOutOfMyMind
12-19-2007, 12:09 AM
Give the Thads Cell phone number :gift
He never answers....
SoCaliUPC
12-19-2007, 12:13 AM
He never answers....
...You. :jolly
Praxeas
12-19-2007, 12:15 AM
...You. :jolly
lol :bells:bells:bells
BoredOutOfMyMind
12-19-2007, 12:18 AM
I say we all call Thad to tell him he is being picked on!
Sister Alvear
12-19-2007, 07:33 AM
I looked over the names of the new organization...some I know others I do not know but one thing I do know there are differences among them...so it all comes down to the fact we must live what we preach and preach what we live. There will never be a group of men that will believe and LIVE everything alike...(Just an opinion)
Sister Alvear
12-19-2007, 07:34 AM
and please do not say I am for or against...whatever...I am only stating we will never find 5 that will believe and live just alike.
LadyChocolate
12-19-2007, 07:53 AM
and please do not say I am for or against...whatever...I am only stating we will never find 5 that will believe and live just alike.
...that is so true... I have found out that even if two men are standing on the same foundation, the same word of God; if you hold convictions (not standards, but convictions) they don't hold, the other is considered a compromiser or a liberal...
10 men in a room and you'll have 15 different opinions
LaVonne
12-19-2007, 07:58 AM
What explanation should the pastors give to there saints in regards to the recent changes?
If you are a UPC member and you do not have access to the internet and do not have tv you are not going to know that a large amount of the organization is no longer there.
I have alot of family spread out in one district, attending several different upc churches. Some of the Pastors are being forthright and letting there congregations know that there are "Issues" in the Organization.
There was a family get together. All of the changes where being discussed, in regards to the "fallout". It was the first time one of the family members had heard anything about any fallout of the UPC. They went straight to the senior pastor and asked about it. He said that there are no changes going on in the UPC, No fallout whatsoever. He said whoever is filling your head with that nonsense is just spreading gossip and rumors. This person was very upset and called her family that she had the discussion with and scolded them for trying to cause division by spreading gossip.
What do you think a pastor needs to tell their congregation in regards to the "changes in the UPC". If you are a Pastor of a UPC church would you let us in on how you are handling this with your saints. Are you talking to them about it? Are you just going to let everyone figure it out on there own..thru hearsay?
It doesn't really speak well of this minister. He has held some of the highest positions you can hold in the upc, and for him to say that nothing is going on...has to be...untruthful. I will not believe for one second that He doesn't know in detail what is going on....It irks me that he is not being forthright about it. This person will believe him over what anyone in her family would tell her.
I'm not really surprised...it angers me that they pretend nothing is going on...so typical!
Sister Truth Seeker
12-19-2007, 08:15 AM
I am a pk and former minsters wife. ALL of my family are in the upc. All in one district. In several different churches. An evengelist came to church A. and shared during a sermon of some of the "fallout" in the UPC. The family in church A told the family about it in Church B., they went to thier pastor and he was open with them and shared what he knew about the changes... As I already explained there was a get together and a family member from Church C had no clue of what was being shared with the other members...by pastors. She went to her pastor and he said there was nothing of the sort going on. The irony is that the pastor of church C. is a former superindendant and most definitely in the "know"...They attend GC as well as other organizational board meetings every year.
The family member from church C, was upset that the other family members would spread such gossip.... It wasn't gossip, it is a true fact that the UPC is going through a major change.
As far as you pointing out the fact that I have issues with pastors is incorrect. I have no issue with Pastors. I do not agree with the structure of the UPC in how they oversee thier leadership. I am a witness to many things that should not have taken place by leadership. If there was a structure known to the saints, a safe place to go to when they need guidance regarding the pastor...maybe some things wouldn't have happened....scares would not have to heal....deep scares. Go ahead and be-little me. Make me appear to be bitter and a in a backslidden state. It is much easier to do that, then to really look within the organization and see how it could be better.
This is a great observatioin....and comment.....there are some wonderful things about the UPC, and some things that are just plain messed up...you no the saying "one bad apple can spoil the barrel" is very true, and if you have more than one the rot spreads quickly...of course not all pastors are bad, but not all saints are either...and to lump us all into the bitter category is just as wrong as you perceive this thread to be....at one point all of us that were a part of THAT church were bitter but we have moved beyond that point....her original question is still not answered.........how are the pastors that stay in or leave the UPC going to explain this to the saints .....don't the saints have a right to know what is going on...should they not have a choice as to what they want to do...oops sorry I forgot its a dictatorship not a democracy!
PreacherV
12-19-2007, 08:24 AM
Yes he is.
I don't know how he is going to fit in with the Tulsa group because he watches videos. I know this to be true. I have preached many times for him and been in his home.
The church he pastors was started umpteen years ago by JG. That could be the connection. JG preached the dedication of his new building a couple of years ago, so they do have contact.
As to "fitting in" with the Tulsa group, I will reiterate my earlier conclusion from another thread.....This is a power play of convenience. Nothing more, nothing less. TV just happened to be the wedge issue that afforded Booker & Company this opportunity of a lifetime!
TRIPLE E
12-19-2007, 08:42 AM
T But you and I both know this organization is in the process of a overhaul...it has been for several years.
And it will continue to change and again it will be several years.Change comes with age people just have to accept it.
ManOfWord
12-19-2007, 08:52 AM
Depending on the size of the church and staff, he should talk with the leaders first and get feedback from them. If the pastor is secure in who he is and what God has called him to do, he should go to the church in a closed business meeting, share his heart/vision of where he believes the Lord is leading him. Honesty is the best thing here and integrity is the only "capital" he has. If the church is behind him, they have their compass heading. If not, he has his and if his vision would tear the church up, he should leave and find God's place for him.
When I left the UPC, that is exactly what I did. I told the church 1 year prior to leaving that I would not sign the AS any longer and they had 1 year to decide the direction they wanted to go. If they wanted to keep me as pastor, we would have to change our by-laws. If they wanted to stay in the UPC, I would help them find a UPC pastor.
1 year later, they voted 100% to keep me and pull out of the UPC. I did not mandate the change nor did I hold anyone "hostage" with threats.
If a pastor has to be deceitful in sharing his heart/vision, he has no business being a pastor/leader.
This is not rocket science. This is not politics. It is basic leadership with integrity. :D
Sister Alvear
12-19-2007, 09:02 AM
Depending on the size of the church and staff, he should talk with the leaders first and get feedback from them. If the pastor is secure in who he is and what God has called him to do, he should go to the church in a closed business meeting, share his heart/vision of where he believes the Lord is leading him. Honesty is the best thing here and integrity is the only "capital" he has. If the church is behind him, they have their compass heading. If not, he has his and if his vision would tear the church up, he should leave and find God's place for him.
When I left the UPC, that is exactly what I did. I told the church 1 year prior to leaving that I would not sign the AS any longer and they had 1 year to decide the direction they wanted to go. If they wanted to keep me as pastor, we would have to change our by-laws. If they wanted to stay in the UPC, I would help them find a UPC pastor.
1 year later, they voted 100% to keep me and pull out of the UPC. I did not mandate the change nor did I hold anyone "hostage" with threats.
If a pastor has to be deceitful in sharing his heart/vision, he has no business being a pastor/leader.
This is not rocket science. This is not politics. It is basic leadership with integrity. :D
That is a beautiful post and a wonderful attitude. Blessings to you.
Aquila
12-19-2007, 09:15 AM
I'd explain that nothing stays the same. Times change. Yes, methods and even practices may change...but the principles never do. What was wrong and sinful entertainment yesterday is wrong and sinful today rather it be in person, on radio, computer, in games, or on the tv. I'd also tell them that it appears that more and more pastors are calling for greater freedom to preach their convictions. As a by product this is allowing for some diversity in points of view in the org. And yes, some still want the old way where every pastor was told what to preach and what their convictions should be...these are uncomfortable and might leave.
Esther
12-19-2007, 09:31 AM
I'd explain that nothing stays the same. Times change. Yes, methods and even practices may change...but the principles never do. What was wrong and sinful entertainment yesterday is wrong and sinful today rather it be in person, on radio, computer, in games, or on the tv. I'd also tell them that it appears that more and more pastors are calling for greater freedom to preach their convictions. As a by product this is allowing for some diversity in points of view in the org. And yes, some still want the old way where every pastor was told what to preach and what their convictions should be...these are uncomfortable and might leave.
But are you saying those that said it ws wrong long ago or more right than those saying it is ok was not ever necessarily wrong?
Just asking who you think is right in your eyes?
Pragmatist
12-19-2007, 11:29 AM
If the pastor is staying in the UPC and not advertising on TV, why should he need to say anything? For him and his church, nothing has changed.
If he is leaving the UPC or beginning a new advertising program, then it should be addressed with the congregation.
If someone asks about it on a personal level, he should be honest.
Aquila
12-19-2007, 11:31 AM
But are you saying those that said it ws wrong long ago or more right than those saying it is ok was not ever necessarily wrong?
Just asking who you think is right in your eyes?
Esther, I’m not sure if I understand your question.
I’m not very religious. So I’m not real focused on “standards”…I prefer to stand by principles or Christian disciplines. I do believe in pastoral authority. I simply believe that pastors should preach their convictions…not be forced to preach a narrow ideological set of standards or convictions they may not believe in. If something is plainly stated in Scripture (modesty, hair standards, the ten commandments, etc.) those are non-negotiable. But things not specifically addressed in the Bible should be pastoral issues. And certainly there should be some consistency in a pastor’s position or it undermines the saint’s confidence in his moral judgments. For example you have pastors that have no issue with allowing the internet in the home even though movies, television, and worse are accessible online; yet they will condemn or disfellowship men or families who have a television. In my opinion that’s not consistent and though it may not happen immediately, such a position will eventually undermine that pastor’s creditability in the eyes of many saints.
We’re not Catholic. Our churches are meant to be autonomous bodies that are in fellowship with one another. Diversity should be expected and welcomed. We were never intended to be a hierarchal religious system with the General Superintendent functioning like a Pope and committees functioning like a See of Cardinals.
embonpoint
12-19-2007, 11:43 AM
...that is so true... I have found out that even if two men are standing on the same foundation, the same word of God; if you hold convictions (not standards, but convictions) they don't hold, the other is considered a compromiser or a liberal...
10 men in a room and you'll have 15 different opinions
5 from the men and the other 10 from their wives???
:couch
:jolly
Sister Truth Seeker
12-19-2007, 12:05 PM
If the pastor is staying in the UPC and not advertising on TV, why should he need to say anything? For him and his church, nothing has changed.
If he is leaving the UPC or beginning a new advertising program, then it should be addressed with the congregation.
If someone asks about it on a personal level, he should be honest.why should the saints not know what is going on in the organization either way...is it a secret? I think what will happen is it will give many permission to explore TV and even those pastors staying in the UPC don't want that....because the sheep are not smart enough to discern what is bad and what is OK on TV, in many ways I see fear of knowledge in the church...it is the secret attitude that baffles me...again it says the saints are not able to discern for themselves what is healthy and what is not...I personally got tired of being treated like I was stupid or ignorant...I am an adult and able to make my own choices.....isn't that what the HG is for....to help us decern!
Blubayou
12-19-2007, 12:23 PM
Esther, I’m not sure if I understand your question.
I’m not very religious. So I’m not real focused on “standards”…I prefer to stand by principles or Christian disciplines. I do believe in pastoral authority. I simply believe that pastors should preach their convictions…not be forced to preach a narrow ideological set of standards or convictions they may not believe in. If something is plainly stated in Scripture (modesty, hair standards, the ten commandments, etc.) those are non-negotiable. But things not specifically addressed in the Bible should be pastoral issues. And certainly there should be some consistency in a pastor’s position or it undermines the saint’s confidence in his moral judgments. For example you have pastors that have no issue with allowing the internet in the home even though movies, television, and worse are accessible online; yet they will condemn or disfellowship men or families who have a television. In my opinion that’s not consistent and though it may not happen immediately, such a position will eventually undermine that pastor’s creditability in the eyes of many saints.
We’re not Catholic. Our churches are meant to be autonomous bodies that are in fellowship with one another. Diversity should be expected and welcomed. We were never intended to be a hierarchal religious system with the General Superintendent functioning like a Pope and committees functioning like a See of Cardinals.
Good Post! I agree with most of what you said. I will say that my pastor has addressed this to the church body. He stated that he did not have a problem with the direction of UPC and if he ever did then he would address it. ( this is not a direct quote, but what I got out of what he said).
RandyWayne
12-19-2007, 12:26 PM
10 men in a room and you'll have 15 different opinions
Ever hear several "oneness" men arguing about what "oneness" is? I have and it is not pretty. Even on the UPC's own forums it will leave your head spinning and doubting that 1 plus equals 2 anymore.
I am sure glad that "oneness" or the perfect understanding thereof, is vital to salvation.... Although many would argue that.
Apprehended
12-19-2007, 12:28 PM
The lack of information or worse, disinformation, leads to lack of trust or worse, distrust.
ManOfWord
12-19-2007, 01:48 PM
why should the saints not know what is going on in the organization either way...is it a secret? I think what will happen is it will give many permission to explore TV and even those pastors staying in the UPC don't want that....because the sheep are not smart enough to discern what is bad and what is OK on TV, in many ways I see fear of knowledge in the church...it is the secret attitude that baffles me...again it says the saints are not able to discern for themselves what is healthy and what is not...I personally got tired of being treated like I was stupid or ignorant...I am an adult and able to make my own choices.....isn't that what the HG is for....to help us decern!
I hear you Sis!!! If, as some pastors think, that the sheep are not smart enough to know what is good for them, then it is THEIR fault for #1 Not equipping them for battle; #2 Not instructing them what to battle; #3 Not taking them into battle with him and showing them how it is done; #4 Not allowing them to go into battle on their own and trusting that they will use what he gave them and war they way he taught them. #5 Not helping when they get into trouble.
Instead, too many are just berated because they didn't do it right and because they didn't do it right they are dangled over the pit of hell and expected to "pray through" and repent of their mistake. Yes, it's oversimplified. Yes, it's exaggerated. But it is not too far from the truth. :D
Pragmatist
12-19-2007, 02:38 PM
why should the saints not know what is going on in the organization either way...is it a secret? I think what will happen is it will give many permission to explore TV and even those pastors staying in the UPC don't want that....because the sheep are not smart enough to discern what is bad and what is OK on TV, in many ways I see fear of knowledge in the church...it is the secret attitude that baffles me...again it says the saints are not able to discern for themselves what is healthy and what is not...I personally got tired of being treated like I was stupid or ignorant...I am an adult and able to make my own choices.....isn't that what the HG is for....to help us decern!
My pastor has not addressed the issue and I see no reason why he should. It doesn't affect our church. I don't think he's keeping it secret, he just has more important things to talk about.
Aquila
12-19-2007, 02:48 PM
My pastor doesn't own a television, yet he does watch DVDs (tries to stick with Rated G and Christian films). He doesnt mandate that we not have a television but occasionally he'll throw out a hint as to how blessed we'd be if we would choose not to have one or greatly reduce our viewing.
BrotherEastman
12-19-2007, 03:58 PM
5 pages.......
49 posts.......
folks, the UPC needs a healer.
ManOfWord
12-19-2007, 04:19 PM
5 pages.......
49 posts.......
folks, the UPC needs a healer.
No, it needs a resurrection! What does that say about it? :D
LadyChocolate
12-19-2007, 04:41 PM
5 from the men and the other 10 from their wives???
:couch
:jolly
:snapout :tricycle :club :razz
:hurtyou
......lol! Men are more opinionated than women! ... and that is a fact that you cannot dispute! LOL jk
Kings Kid
12-19-2007, 05:20 PM
No, it needs a resurrection! What does that say about it? :D
I agree with you it needs resurrection.
embonpoint
12-19-2007, 05:47 PM
:snapout :tricycle :club :razz
:hurtyou
......lol! Men are more opinionated than women! ... and that is a fact that you cannot dispute! LOL jk
Be it far from me to dispute your unopinionated, position on the matter.
:christmoose
Joelel
12-19-2007, 06:16 PM
What explanation should the pastors give to there saints in regards to the recent changes?
If you are a UPC member and you do not have access to the internet and do not have tv you are not going to know that a large amount of the organization is no longer there.
I have alot of family spread out in one district, attending several different upc churches. Some of the Pastors are being forthright and letting there congregations know that there are "Issues" in the Organization.
There was a family get together. All of the changes where being discussed, in regards to the "fallout". It was the first time one of the family members had heard anything about any fallout of the UPC. They went straight to the senior pastor and asked about it. He said that there are no changes going on in the UPC, No fallout whatsoever. He said whoever is filling your head with that nonsense is just spreading gossip and rumors. This person was very upset and called her family that she had the discussion with and scolded them for trying to cause division by spreading gossip.
What do you think a pastor needs to tell their congregation in regards to the "changes in the UPC". If you are a Pastor of a UPC church would you let us in on how you are handling this with your saints. Are you talking to them about it? Are you just going to let everyone figure it out on there own..thru hearsay?
It doesn't really speak well of this minister. He has held some of the highest positions you can hold in the upc, and for him to say that nothing is going on...has to be...untruthful. I will not believe for one second that He doesn't know in detail what is going on....It irks me that he is not being forthright about it. This person will believe him over what anyone in her family would tell her.
The pastor might leave and take some people with him as happens many times but they can't take the church building,it belongs to UPC org.The people who stays will just get a new pastor.
embonpoint
12-19-2007, 06:25 PM
The pastor might leave and take some people with him as happens many times but they can't take the church building,it belongs to UPC org.The people who stays will just get a new pastor.
Few of the buildings belong to the org. They typically belong to the local church. In fact in the case of an incorporated local church where the corporation owned the property I don't think that the org could take the church even if it was affiliated and the pastor left the org unless there was a restriction recorded with the deed.
TRFrance
12-19-2007, 10:13 PM
Right off the bat your premise is flawed. It is not accurate to say that "a large part of the organization is no longer there". That is just false at this time. Might be true at some point in the future but certainly not right now.
True...It hasn't happened yet, but look at all of the endless conversations here on this forum alone about what if, how, and who. It is obvious that there are big changes ahead for this organization.
Harmony, keep in mind that there are a lot of UPC "haters" on this forum. Some of these people here have "issues" or resentment against the UPC for its stand on standards, and insistence on Acts 2:38 salvation (i.e. "3-steps" verses 1-step). So anything that seems to weaken the UPC, they take as good news.
I would say in the end there will be some defections from the UPC, but not to the extent that the organization will be seriously damaged as a whole. A lot of what you see on this board is just wishful thinking in that regard.
Despite its imperfections, the UPCI is still the flagship organization of Apostolic truth, and has been greatly used by God to bring millions to salvation. I'm confident God's hand will continue to work in the organization, to do His will and to further the advancement of His kingdom.
.
Fiyahstarter
12-19-2007, 11:52 PM
Depending on the size of the church and staff, he should talk with the leaders first and get feedback from them. If the pastor is secure in who he is and what God has called him to do, he should go to the church in a closed business meeting, share his heart/vision of where he believes the Lord is leading him. Honesty is the best thing here and integrity is the only "capital" he has. If the church is behind him, they have their compass heading. If not, he has his and if his vision would tear the church up, he should leave and find God's place for him.
When I left the UPC, that is exactly what I did. I told the church 1 year prior to leaving that I would not sign the AS any longer and they had 1 year to decide the direction they wanted to go. If they wanted to keep me as pastor, we would have to change our by-laws. If they wanted to stay in the UPC, I would help them find a UPC pastor.
1 year later, they voted 100% to keep me and pull out of the UPC. I did not mandate the change nor did I hold anyone "hostage" with threats.
If a pastor has to be deceitful in sharing his heart/vision, he has no business being a pastor/leader.
This is not rocket science. This is not politics. It is basic leadership with integrity. :D
Most excellent!
The more I read your posts, the more I wish you would pick up your church and move to Delaware. Any chance of that happening??? (We do not have any sales tax here in Delaware, you know!!!)
Fiyahstarter
12-20-2007, 12:05 AM
My pastor has not addressed the issue and I see no reason why he should. It doesn't affect our church. I don't think he's keeping it secret, he just has more important things to talk about.
If I had been preached to all my life that TV was a sin...
And then found out later that the very organization that had been preaching THAT to me had decided it was OK to advertise on that sin-box...
But they had never told me about it???
I would feel cheated. Violated. And most definitely confused. And yes, I would think that was sneaky.
Pastors definitely need to be upfront about it.
I remember when I found out about the AS ... quite accidentally while surfing online. I was appalled, and wondered, what in the world am I supporting?
deacon blues
12-20-2007, 12:19 AM
Yes he is.
I don't know how he is going to fit in with the Tulsa group because he watches videos. I know this to be true. I have preached many times for him and been in his home.
And now will probably never preach for him again.
deacon blues
12-20-2007, 01:08 AM
The precious people I pastor identify with being members of our church. Very few, if any, identify with being UPC. 90% of our members have no clue what a "General Superintendent" is let alone that it is Kenneth Haney. Maybe 5% of our membership goes to District Campmeeting. Most of our people have no clue where the HQ if the UPC is.
There would be no point in me telling them that the organization that we belong to is going through a sea change, that there are preachers and churches in cponflict over television. This church in its 50+ years of existence as far as I know has never had issues with tv ownership. To share that there are pastors and churches actually leaving the UPC over this would create more confused looks and perplexed glazes than people thanking me for keeping them up to date on the political wranglings of a preacher fraternity.
I had one man pull me aside and tell me that they had visited the church his wife grew up in and that there was a major split about to take place in the UPC over TV. He was telling me like this was potentially some major breaking news for me. I just allayed his fears and let him know that everything would be alright.
If the UPC was debating the infallibility of the Word or the virgin birth or ordaining homosexuals, that would be noteworthy news to our people. But to share the fact that we are debating whether tv should be used to advertise and evangelize in the internet age could do nothing more in our assembly than elicit incredulity.
In most cases, I would say it would be unwise to tell the saints about this. I can't see the benefit.
pelathais
12-20-2007, 01:30 AM
...
If the UPC was debating the infallibility of the Word or the virgin birth or ordaining homosexuals, that would be noteworthy news to our people. But to share the fact that we are debating whether tv should be used to advertise and evangelize in the internet age could do nothing more in our assembly than elicit incredulity.
In most cases, I would say it would be unwise to tell the saints about this. I can't see the benefit.
However, there are many of us that would like to see our local assemblies get to where you describe your church as being. Many of us share a pew with folks that would send your people to hell in a heartbeat. We feel that is wrong and are trying find fellowship that is a bit more open and Christ like.
The first step toward that goal is talking about it.
deacon blues
12-20-2007, 01:45 AM
However, there are many of us that would like to see our local assemblies get to where you describe your church as being. Many of us share a pew with folks that would send your people to hell in a heartbeat. We feel that is wrong and are trying find fellowship that is a bit more open and Christ like.
The first step toward that goal is talking about it.
I understand. I have never been a part of such an atmosphere or group think in my UPC experience so some things from my perspective are a bit Pollyanic. It wouldn't work for our assembly to make much ado about all of this but I can see where you and your circle of family/friends would like to know more and understand more of the details of whats going on.
ManOfWord
12-20-2007, 07:24 AM
If I had been preached to all my life that TV was a sin...
And then found out later that the very organization that had been preaching THAT to me had decided it was OK to advertise on that sin-box...
But they had never told me about it???
I would feel cheated. Violated. And most definitely confused. And yes, I would think that was sneaky.
Pastors definitely need to be upfront about it.
I remember when I found out about the AS ... quite accidentally while surfing online. I was appalled, and wondered, what in the world am I supporting?
You see, that's where the problem comes in! Preachers have preached that TV is a sin! That is a LIE! When they preach that, they are bold face LYING to their people. The bible clearly states "I will set no wicked thing before my eyes." TV is NOT wicked. However, there ARE wicked things on TV. Due to the fact that people have just absorbed everything they have been force fed from the pulpit and told not to be rebellious or they would go to hell, they feel deceived when these types of things happen in the org. "Pastor, you mean, it's not sin now?" No, it's not sin and never was.
The UPC, as a whole, has done a VERY good job of preaching about "things" as sin and a terrible job of preaching and teaching principles and allowing people to make decisions. I am not talking about allowing clearly sinful behavior either.
When these issues, along with "holiness" standards come up in an intellectual/ biblical manner, many "power brokers" in the org get fearful because there is a danger of losing control of the constituency. God forbid that these people would actually engage their brains and use the word of God to make a decision rather than waiting to hear it addressed from the pulpit.
Don't get me started! :D
LaVonne
12-20-2007, 07:55 AM
If I had been preached to all my life that TV was a sin...
And then found out later that the very organization that had been preaching THAT to me had decided it was OK to advertise on that sin-box...
But they had never told me about it???
I would feel cheated. Violated. And most definitely confused. And yes, I would think that was sneaky.
Pastors definitely need to be upfront about it.
I remember when I found out about the AS ... quite accidentally while surfing online. I was appalled, and wondered, what in the world am I supporting?
I remember that our former pastor preached heavily against video, then after we left, I found out that they'd been watching video for years. I was so angry!!!!
Blsdbeyondmsure
12-20-2007, 10:45 AM
The precious people I pastor identify with being members of our church. Very few, if any, identify with being UPC. 90% of our members have no clue what a "General Superintendent" is let alone that it is Kenneth Haney. Maybe 5% of our membership goes to District Campmeeting. Most of our people have no clue where the HQ if the UPC is.
There would be no point in me telling them that the organization that we belong to is going through a sea change, that there are preachers and churches in cponflict over television. This church in its 50+ years of existence as far as I know has never had issues with tv ownership. To share that there are pastors and churches actually leaving the UPC over this would create more confused looks and perplexed glazes than people thanking me for keeping them up to date on the political wranglings of a preacher fraternity.
I had one man pull me aside and tell me that they had visited the church his wife grew up in and that there was a major split about to take place in the UPC over TV. He was telling me like this was potentially some major breaking news for me. I just allayed his fears and let him know that everything would be alright.
If the UPC was debating the infallibility of the Word or the virgin birth or ordaining homosexuals, that would be noteworthy news to our people. But to share the fact that we are debating whether tv should be used to advertise and evangelize in the internet age could do nothing more in our assembly than elicit incredulity.
In most cases, I would say it would be unwise to tell the saints about this. I can't see the benefit.
I agree 100%. I don't see the benefit either. Why waste the time or energy to go into all this when it has zero impact or interest to most members of UPC churches.
Now if a pastor intends to pull out of the UPC, I think MOW's approach is a good one. Otherwise who cares?
LaVonne
12-20-2007, 10:57 AM
I agree 100%. I don't see the benefit either. Why waste the time or energy to go into all this when it has zero impact or interest to most members of UPC churches.
Now if a pastor intends to pull out of the UPC, I think MOW's approach is a good one. Otherwise who cares?
However, if a church member approaches the pastor about it and he denies there's anything going on,that's wrong. I don't know that it was ever said that the pastor needed to bring this before the entire congregation...but for those who have questions, don't they deserve an honest answer?
Pragmatist
12-20-2007, 11:33 AM
If I had been preached to all my life that TV was a sin...
And then found out later that the very organization that had been preaching THAT to me had decided it was OK to advertise on that sin-box...
But they had never told me about it???
I would feel cheated. Violated. And most definitely confused. And yes, I would think that was sneaky.
Pastors definitely need to be upfront about it.
I remember when I found out about the AS ... quite accidentally while surfing online. I was appalled, and wondered, what in the world am I supporting?
Well, I've never heard my pastor preach against TV. He does preach a lot about outward reform doing no good without inward change, however.
Fiyahstarter
12-20-2007, 01:09 PM
Well, I've never heard my pastor preach against TV. He does preach a lot about outward reform doing no good without inward change, however.
Have you ever read the Affirmation Statement that UPC preachers are required to sign?
Blsdbeyondmsure
12-20-2007, 01:19 PM
However, if a church member approaches the pastor about it and he denies there's anything going on,that's wrong. I don't know that it was ever said that the pastor needed to bring this before the entire congregation...but for those who have questions, don't they deserve an honest answer?
I don't think you should lie or mislead, but the way DeaconBlues handled it by just allaying the persons fears & letting them know everything will be fine, is the best way to handle it, IMO.
Sister Truth Seeker
12-21-2007, 07:34 PM
I hear you Sis!!! If, as some pastors think, that the sheep are not smart enough to know what is good for them, then it is THEIR fault for #1 Not equipping them for battle; #2 Not instructing them what to battle; #3 Not taking them into battle with him and showing them how it is done; #4 Not allowing them to go into battle on their own and trusting that they will use what he gave them and war they way he taught them. #5 Not helping when they get into trouble.
Instead, too many are just berated because they didn't do it right and because they didn't do it right they are dangled over the pit of hell and expected to "pray through" and repent of their mistake. Yes, it's oversimplified. Yes, it's exaggerated. But it is not too far from the truth. :DThank you sir....I would be so happy if I had a church like yours in my town....it would be an answer to my prayers...I am waiting for God to build it.....when He does I will be a charter member! You are wise, you have taken what is good from the UPC and brought truth to it and built a church!
Sister Truth Seeker
12-21-2007, 07:40 PM
My pastor has not addressed the issue and I see no reason why he should. It doesn't affect our church. I don't think he's keeping it secret, he just has more important things to talk about.
There are lies of omission....and to not keep the saints informed of what is going on in the organization is just that in my opinion knowledge is power, and ignorance is bliss...keep em in the dark so you can keep them under control....
Evang.Benincasa
06-01-2018, 07:20 PM
Right off the bat your premise is flawed. It is not accurate to say that "a large part of the organization is no longer there". That is just false at this time. Might be true at some point in the future but certainly not right now.
OK, the future is now.
What say ye? :heeheehee
OK, the future is now.
What say ye? :heeheehee
LOL!!! I had to go to the last page to see who the culprit was who dug up an 11 year old thread.
I think if someone is UPC the good news is that they absorbed the blow of the conservatives who left to form the Global Worldwide Wrestling Fellowship and have kept right on going.
The libs leaving has always been a small amount at a time but some of the more significant churches number wise over the years (Kenneth Phillips, Mark Hanby, Jabo(?) Green, the Jones Brothers and Jimbo Kilgore in Houston, the large church in the DFW area whose pastor I can't think of his name), etc.)
From afar it also appears the UPCI has survived the financial issues HQ was having a few years ago to the point they were actually able to purchase a new HG in St. Louis that is very nice and was very much needed.
I would love to know what the number of local, general, and ordained ministers is in the UPC now vs 10 years ago as well as the number of churches either affiliated with the UPC or pastored by a licensed UPC minister.
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