Who Is The Israel Of God ?

[Scott Hutchinson]

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing , nor uncircumcision,but a new creature.
And as many walk according to this rule,peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. GAL.6:15,16

Now there are differing views among Christians on who the Israel of God is these verses.
Whom do ye saith this is ?

Could it be Natural Israel ?
Could it be the church or Body Of Christ ?
Could it be a remnant Abraham's physical seed who have found salvation through Jesus Christ ?

[Neck]

I say the Natural Children of Isreal as defined in the Old Testement.

The word Mercy brings that to bear for me!

[Brother Price]

I say that the Church is the Israel of God.

Paul identifies what makes a true Jew (Romans 2:28-29).

He identifies true circumcision (Colossians 2:9-12).

He calls us the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16).

He says that we are of the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3).

Peter said we are a peculiar people, a chosen nation.

I believe that the Church, united across all man-made barriers is the Israel of God, God's only chosen people.

[Parson]

Hi Bro Scott

Some texts to consider:


Acts 3:12 shows that Peter viewed the church people as separate from Israel.
Act 3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?


Acts 4:8,10 show distinction between the people of the church and Israel.
Act 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.


Acts 5:21 shows a difference between some in the church and the children of Israel.
Act 5:21 And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But the high priest came, and they that were with him, and called the council together, and all the senate of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought.


Romans 9:3,4 shows that Paul felt there was a difference between himself, a Jew, and his fellow Jews.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;


1 Corinthians 10:32 shows the distinction very nicely.

1Co 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
1Co 10:32 Give none offense, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

There is a distinction, Bro Scott.


Blessings


Parson

[Parson]

I say that the Church is the Israel of God.

Paul identifies what makes a true Jew (Romans 2:28-29).

He identifies true circumcision (Colossians 2:9-12).

He calls us the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16).

He says that we are of the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3).

Peter said we are a peculiar people, a chosen nation.

I believe that the Church, united across all man-made barriers is the Israel of God, God's only chosen people.


Please consider this passage, Bro Price.


Romans 11:28 (NLT)
Many of the Jews are now enemies of the Good News. But this has been to your benefit, for God has given his gifts to you Gentiles. Yet the Jews are still his chosen people because of his promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

If you wish to go to the Greek....


As concerning the eklogē, the Jews are the agapētos--which is translated as

As concerning the ELECTION OR CHOSEN--THEY (THE JEWS) ARE THE 1) beloved, esteemed, dear, favourite, worthy of love
---

Rom 11:28-29 -
As concerning the Gospel they are enemies for your sakes — that is, they are regarded and treated as enemies (in a state of exclusion through unbelief, from the family of God) for the benefit of you Gentiles; in the sense of Rom_11:11, Rom_11:15.
but as touching, the election — of Abraham and his seed.
they are beloved — even in their state of exclusion for the fathers’ sakes.

Paul summarized God’s dealings with Israel and with the Gentiles. In order for God to bring the gospel to Gentiles He had to deal with Israel corporately as enemies. But in relation to God’s choice (election) of Abraham and His covenant with him and the patriarchs, Israel is beloved. Because God chose Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (cf. 9:6-13), He loves the nation and will carry through on His promises. This is another reason Israel’s hardening must be temporary (cf. 11:15, 22-25) and she must finally be saved corporately: God chose her. And God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable (lit., “for not repented of are the grace-gifts and the calling of God”). He does not revoke what He has given or whom He has chosen (“call” means election and salvation; cf. 1:6; 8:30).

[mizpeh]

There is an Israel after the flesh and an Israel after the Spirit.

Romans 9:6-13, 25-28 1 Cor 10:18, Eph 2:11-19 Gal 6:15,16

[Pastor Keith]

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing , nor uncircumcision,but a new creature.
And as many walk according to this rule,peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. GAL.6:15,16

Now there are differing views among Christians on who the Israel of God is these verses.
Whom do ye saith this is ?

Could it be Natural Israel ?
Could it be the church or Body Of Christ ?
Could it be a remnant Abraham's physical seed who have found salvation through Jesus Christ ?

Those Jews that turned to Christ in the 1st Century, Jews that live for him now and future Jews who will turn to him in the Tribulation.

[berkeley]

Galatians.. anyone?

[A.W. Bowman]

You have all done well up to this point. Now, add in the adoption, grafting in with the limb and root elements, and give us the conclusion of the matter.

The process, however, will still require the complete review of all scriptures (Old and New Testament) that bear on the promises, the curses, and the warnings given through the seed of Abraham, even through Moses and the prophets. For example: Who are included in the house of Israel in the O.T.? What are the conditions of this acceptance? Accommodate the teaching of Rabbi Sha'ul (Apostle Paul) in light of those original writings. Then, after all of that, the resulting doctrine will support, and be supported by, all of the other true teachings of the scriptures.

A stand alone doctrine is by definition a false doctrine, for no teaching of scripture stands alone. All scripture is combined, united, and integrated into one unified whole. Exceptions to this rule is the result of accepting the doctrines of men over the doctrines of God.

May your studies be fruitful.

Shalom Aleichem

[Pastor Keith]

Galatians.. anyone?

You are on the path of scholarship.

[berkeley]

You are on the path of scholarship.

A sense of sarcasm?

[TK Burk]

The “True Israel of God” is Jesus Christ. Jesus, and Jesus alone, lived up to the definition of the name "Israel," which is interpreted as: “HE WILL RULE AS GOD.” (See Strong's H3478) No mere person, regardless of their physical genealogy, could live up to such a definition. Rather, it took one who is the much greater than the first Adam to fulfill such a claim—the last Adam—Jesus!

‘The Bible overwhelmingly communicates that JESUS IS THE ONE THAT “RULES AS GOD.” Here are a few of the scriptures that testify to this fact:

1. Isaiah 59:16
2. John 1:1
3. John 1:14
4. Matthew 1:20-23
5. Romans 9:4-7
6. 1 Corinthians 15:45-47
7. John 20:27-29
8. Matthew 28:18-19
9. Luke 24:46-49
10. Acts 2:38
11. Acts 4:10-12
12. John 14:8-9
13. 2 Corinthians 4:6
14. Hebrews 1:1-8
15. Philippians 2:5-6
16. John 12:44-45
17. John 14:7
18. Colossians 1:13-19

Notice in the next scriptures how they tie Jesus together with the True Israel of God:

1. Matthew 2:14-15
2. Hosea 11:1
3. Exodus 4:22
4. John 3:16
5. Mark 12:6-9

Jesus Christ is the same promise Paul allegorically referred to in Galatians 6 as the One promised SEED of Abraham. But one must come through Jesus to become partakers of that same promise.

1. John 14:6-7
2. John 10:7-9
3. Romans 5:1-2
4. Hebrews 10:19-22

He is and always was the only way into the true promised Israel of God! This will always be true since Jesus is the One True God, who is Lord over all lands, and King over all men.

Isaiah 49:3—O Israel: As the name of David is sometimes given to his successors, so here THE NAME OF ISRAEL MAY NOT UNFITLY BE GIVEN TO CHRIST, not only because he descended from his loins; but also because HE WAS THE TRUE AND THE GREAT ISRAEL, WHO, IN A MORE EMINENT MANNER, PREVAILED WITH GOD, AS THAT NAME SIGNIFIES, of whom Jacob, who was first called Israel, was but a type. — John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible

O Israel: A NAME OF CHRIST, AND WHICH PROPERLY BELONGS TO HIM, being the antitype of Jacob or Israel; the Head and REPRESENTATIVE OF THE WHOLE ISRAEL OF GOD; who was of Israel according to the flesh, and an Israelite indeed in a spiritual sense, and was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ISRAEL IS A NAME OF THE CHURCH, often given to it in this prophecy; CHRIST AND HIS CHURCH, BY VIRTUE OF THE UNION BETWEEN THEM, HAVE THE SAME NAMES; as she is sometimes called by his names, Christ, and the Lord our righteousness, so he is here called by her name Israel, 1Corinthians 12:12, — John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

Isaiah 49:3—Israel: APPLIED TO MESSIAH, according to the true import of the name, the Prince who had power with God in wrestling in behalf of man, and who prevails (Genesis 32:28; Hosea 12:3-4). HE IS ALSO THE IDEAL ISRAEL, THE REPRESENTATIVE MAN OF THE NATION (Compare Matthew 2:15 with Hosea 11:1). — Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible

Neither the ethnicity of the Jews nor their opportunity to receive salvation through Jesus ended because of the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and her Temple, or due to the elimination of the self-righteous system of Law to which the Jews had fallen prey. This judgment firmly established Jesus as the King of kings and the Lord of lords who does RULE AS GOD! (See Matthew 28:18) WHEN WE (JEW, SAMARITAN, OR GENTILE) ARE "BORN AGAIN," WE BECOME A MEMBER OF JESUS' BODY AND THEREBY MEMBERS OF THE TRUE ISRAEL OF GOD.

[Falla39]

This thread is getting very interesting!

Blessings,

Falla39

[A.W. Bowman]

Again - you guys are doing great.

The Lost and Found contribution is outstanding. It will require some study, but I think the essence is there, and will not take much to turn it into an excellent doctrine.

[Neck]

Again - you guys are doing great.

The Lost and Found contribution is outstanding. It will require some study, but I think the essence is there, and will not take much to turn it into an excellent doctrine.

HaShaliach: Is there anyway I can get a bit of your background? I am very interested in your thoughts and understading.

Let me know how I can get you my email address etc.

You profile will not allow me to send you a PM.

Nathan Ecsktadt

[A.W. Bowman]

HaShaliach: Is there anyway I can get a bit of your background? I am very interested in your thoughts and understading.

Let me know how I can get you my email address etc.

You profile will not allow me to send you a PM.

Nathan Ecsktadt

I will fix the profile. I turned off everything the last time I spent a little time here so as not to get pulled back into anything. LOLOLOL

[A.W. Bowman]

It should work now - if not, use this one: aw.webmail@gmail.com

[A.W. Bowman]

You might enjoy this post: See No. 362 on page -
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?p=332717#post332717

[A.W. Bowman]

The “True Israel of God” is Jesus Christ. Jesus, and Jesus alone, lived up to the definition of the name "Israel," which is interpreted as: “HE WILL RULE AS GOD.” (See Strong's H3478) No mere person, regardless of their physical genealogy, could live up to such a definition. Rather, it took one who is the much greater than the first Adam to fulfill such a claim—the last Adam—Jesus!


Excellent Start.

While the arguments presented in your post reflect a considerable amount of time, energy, and research. In this regard, you have done well. However, I suggest the following:

I can relate to being sent down a wrong path by “experts”. In this case, Strong came to a conclusion, I am sure based on scripture as you presented, but it was a misplaced application and association of names. Therefore, I recommend a revisit of the basic premise: That the name, Israel, means “He will rule as God”. While Jesus rules “as God”, Israel does not. Strong’s definition of the word is incorrect.

What is required, is searching the Hebrew definition (God’s use and intent) of the name of Israel, not a Christian’s “redefinition”,no matter how well meanng.

Keyed to Strong, H3478 שרל Yisra'el yis-raw-ale'; from 08280 and 0410, Greek 2474 israhl;; n pr m; Israel = "God prevails"

See the Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, H3478, pg 370, "God prevails" from H8280, שרה contend, have power, contend with, persist, exert oneself, persevere. Also from H0410, pg. 45. אל, a prop. Strong, robust Part of the verb to fight (to be strong, mighty, robust) a mighty one, a hero as in the Messiah of God (Isa 9:5, 10:21), which is significantly different than "he shall rule as God"

From the verb roots forward, the conceptual Hebrew language for Israel is: A mighty man who preserves, who can even contend with God. Even so, it is God that prevails. This also fits the scriptural description of the name given in Ge 32:24-31.

This type of problem in word selection and definitions is all to common when using a concordance for word definitions (meanings). The other problem is that one cannot determine from a concordance which of the several meanings (including parts of speech) of a particular word should be applied to a particular passage (for correct interpretation). I know from experience how disappointing it is to spend hours on a project, only to discover that my basic premise was faulty.

While I can appreciate your effort, and even agree with much of what you concluded, the argument(s) should be reworked so as to start with the correct premise and remove the inappropriate scriptural references.

May your studies be fruitful – I truly enjoyed studying your work. It was a worthy effort.

Shalom V’Shalom

[TK Burk]

Excellent Start.

While the arguments presented in your post reflect a considerable amount of time, energy, and research. In this regard, you have done well. However, I suggest the following:

I can relate to being sent down a wrong path by “experts”. In this case, Strong came to a conclusion, I am sure based on scripture as you presented, but it was a misplaced application and association of names. Therefore, I recommend a revisit of the basic premise: That the name, Israel, means “He will rule as God”. While Jesus rules “as God”, Israel does not. Strong’s definition of the word is incorrect.

What is required, is searching the Hebrew definition (God’s use and intent) of the name of Israel, not a Christian’s “redefinition”,no matter how well meanng.

Keyed to Strong, H3478 שרל Yisra'el yis-raw-ale'; from 08280 and 0410, Greek 2474 israhl;; n pr m; Israel = "God prevails"

See the Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, H3478, pg 370, "God prevails" from H8280, שרה contend, have power, contend with, persist, exert oneself, persevere. Also from H0410, pg. 45. אל, a prop. Strong, robust Part of the verb to fight (to be strong, mighty, robust) a mighty one, a hero as in the Messiah of God (Isa 9:5, 10:21), which is significantly different than "he shall rule as God"

From the verb roots forward, the conceptual Hebrew language for Israel is: A mighty man who preserves, who can even contend with God. Even so, it is God that prevails. This also fits the scriptural description of the name given in Ge 32:24-31.

This type of problem in word selection and definitions is all to common when using a concordance for word definitions (meanings). The other problem is that one cannot determine from a concordance which of the several meanings (including parts of speech) of a particular word should be applied to a particular passage (for correct interpretation). I know from experience how disappointing it is to spend hours on a project, only to discover that my basic premise was faulty.

While I can appreciate your effort, and even agree with much of what you concluded, the argument(s) should be reworked so as to start with the correct premise and remove the inappropriate scriptural references.

May your studies be fruitful – I truly enjoyed studying your work. It was a worthy effort.

Shalom V’Shalom

Thanks for your reply.

As far as my points; if Jesus is Israel, and if Israel means to "rule as God," and if Jesus is the King of kings, Lord of Lords, then 'YES,' Israel does rule as God.

Be blessed!

[A.W. Bowman]

Thanks for your reply.

As far as my points; if Jesus is Israel, and if Israel means to "rule as God," and if Jesus is the King of kings, Lord of Lords, then 'YES,' Israel does rule as God.

Be blessed!

I regret that I did not make the point clear: The name, Israel, does not mean "rule as God". Strong is in error. That is a Christian deduction not based on or in the Hebrew language.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I regret that I did not make the point clear: The name, Israel, does not mean "rule as God". Strong is in error. That is a Christian deduction not based on or in the Hebrew language.

The Hebrew is pretty fuzzy when it comes to meanings of names, Israel can be interpreted to mean "God contended", "struggled with God/he struggles with God","Wrestled With God","May God prevail", and "God perseveres."

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Scott Hutchinson]

J.B. Phillips New Testament in Modern English makes this plain to me.
But in Christ it is not circumcision or uncircumcision that counts but in the power of the new birth.
To all who live by this principle,to the true Israel of God,may there be peace and mercy!
Whomever has experienced the new birth and lives by the principle of new life or rebirth in Christ ,is the true spiritual Israel of God, to me this sounds like the church or body of Christ in my opinion.

[Joelel]

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing , nor uncircumcision,but a new creature.
And as many walk according to this rule,peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. GAL.6:15,16

Now there are differing views among Christians on who the Israel of God is these verses.
Whom do ye saith this is ?

Could it be Natural Israel ?
Could it be the church or Body Of Christ ?
Could it be a remnant Abraham's physical seed who have found salvation through Jesus Christ ?

Let's see,those two verses.A new creature would tell me the Israel of God here is the Church,the body of Christ.

[Joelel]

The “True Israel of God” is Jesus Christ. Jesus, and Jesus alone, lived up to the definition of the name "Israel," which is interpreted as: “HE WILL RULE AS GOD.” (See Strong's H3478) No mere person, regardless of their physical genealogy, could live up to such a definition. Rather, it took one who is the much greater than the first Adam to fulfill such a claim—the last Adam—Jesus!

‘The Bible overwhelmingly communicates that JESUS IS THE ONE THAT “RULES AS GOD.” Here are a few of the scriptures that testify to this fact:

1. Isaiah 59:16
2. John 1:1
3. John 1:14
4. Matthew 1:20-23
5. Romans 9:4-7
6. 1 Corinthians 15:45-47
7. John 20:27-29
8. Matthew 28:18-19
9. Luke 24:46-49
10. Acts 2:38
11. Acts 4:10-12
12. John 14:8-9
13. 2 Corinthians 4:6
14. Hebrews 1:1-8
15. Philippians 2:5-6
16. John 12:44-45
17. John 14:7
18. Colossians 1:13-19

Notice in the next scriptures how they tie Jesus together with the True Israel of God:

1. Matthew 2:14-15
2. Hosea 11:1
3. Exodus 4:22
4. John 3:16
5. Mark 12:6-9

Jesus Christ is the same promise Paul allegorically referred to in Galatians 6 as the One promised SEED of Abraham. But one must come through Jesus to become partakers of that same promise.

1. John 14:6-7
2. John 10:7-9
3. Romans 5:1-2
4. Hebrews 10:19-22

He is and always was the only way into the true promised Israel of God! This will always be true since Jesus is the One True God, who is Lord over all lands, and King over all men.

Isaiah 49:3—O Israel: As the name of David is sometimes given to his successors, so here THE NAME OF ISRAEL MAY NOT UNFITLY BE GIVEN TO CHRIST, not only because he descended from his loins; but also because HE WAS THE TRUE AND THE GREAT ISRAEL, WHO, IN A MORE EMINENT MANNER, PREVAILED WITH GOD, AS THAT NAME SIGNIFIES, of whom Jacob, who was first called Israel, was but a type. — John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible

O Israel: A NAME OF CHRIST, AND WHICH PROPERLY BELONGS TO HIM, being the antitype of Jacob or Israel; the Head and REPRESENTATIVE OF THE WHOLE ISRAEL OF GOD; who was of Israel according to the flesh, and an Israelite indeed in a spiritual sense, and was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ISRAEL IS A NAME OF THE CHURCH, often given to it in this prophecy; CHRIST AND HIS CHURCH, BY VIRTUE OF THE UNION BETWEEN THEM, HAVE THE SAME NAMES; as she is sometimes called by his names, Christ, and the Lord our righteousness, so he is here called by her name Israel, 1Corinthians 12:12, — John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

Isaiah 49:3—Israel: APPLIED TO MESSIAH, according to the true import of the name, the Prince who had power with God in wrestling in behalf of man, and who prevails (Genesis 32:28; Hosea 12:3-4). HE IS ALSO THE IDEAL ISRAEL, THE REPRESENTATIVE MAN OF THE NATION (Compare Matthew 2:15 with Hosea 11:1). — Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible

Neither the ethnicity of the Jews nor their opportunity to receive salvation through Jesus ended because of the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and her Temple, or due to the elimination of the self-righteous system of Law to which the Jews had fallen prey. This judgment firmly established Jesus as the King of kings and the Lord of lords who does RULE AS GOD! (See Matthew 28:18) WHEN WE (JEW, SAMARITAN, OR GENTILE) ARE "BORN AGAIN," WE BECOME A MEMBER OF JESUS' BODY AND THEREBY MEMBERS OF THE TRUE ISRAEL OF GOD.

Well,let's see.Jesus is God and were the body of Christ.Jesus rules,what does that make us ?

[TK Burk]

Well,let's see.Jesus is God and were the body of Christ.Jesus rules,what does that make us ?

It might just be me, but your tone sounds like you feel the need to TELL me rather than ASK me. :winkgrin So here I am, teach me.

[TK Burk]

I regret that I did not make the point clear: The name, Israel, does not mean "rule as God". Strong is in error. That is a Christian deduction not based on or in the Hebrew language.

The Hebrew is pretty fuzzy when it comes to meanings of names, Israel can be interpreted to mean "God contended", "struggled with God/he struggles with God","Wrestled With God","May God prevail", and "God perseveres."

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

I still do not see where Strong's errs. EB brings up an interesting point in that "Israel" has a multifaceted definition. But I think a key here is that when Jacob's name was changed to "Israel," the Bible never uses that new name when referring to the man, Jacob. Remember, it says He is the God of Abraham (new name), Jacob (old name, not Israel), and Isaac. Jacob stayed Jacob even after the name change. The name ‘Jacob’ referred to the fleshly man, Jacob, and the name 'Israel' referred to 'the promise,' which is Jesus. Remember, Jesus said when a person searches the scriptures they find that they testify of Him. So we know that it's all about Jesus. Jesus is the door through which all believers must come. He is also the true Israel through which all those in the true Israel of God must come. Once we enter into Jesus through the New Covenant, we then become part of Jesus' body, which is juxtaposition with being members of the True Israel of God.

[A.W. Bowman]

The Hebrew is pretty fuzzy when it comes to meanings of names, Israel can be interpreted to mean "God contended", "struggled with God/he struggles with God","Wrestled With God","May God prevail", and "God perseveres."


I recognize yet another brother from “the old days”. It’s so good to see you on the boards.

I am also pleased to see that you have also taken up Greek and Hebrew translation (and/or interpretation) methodologies. I gain great satisfaction in comparing notes with those of similar interests, and who have taken the time and effort to acquire such a skill. Of course, I am not yet a master in these endeavors (hardly a good student), so I still have much to learn. And, not much time in which to do it before such study will be unnecessary! LOLOL

Yet, just so that there is no misunderstanding - The “fuzzy name” comment was intriguing. I assume you meant that comment from the western world-view and not from the Hebrew.

שלרה דשלס
Shalom V’Shalom *

---------------
* Oh! As you may have also noticed in you studies, Strong also messed up in his Hebrew Alef Beit when he lumped all of the initial sin and shin letters together as though they were the same letter. It does make it a little difficult in looking up some words starting with these letters. Plus, as noted above, not all Torah Hebrew use of the word “shalom” equates to our English word “peace”, and not all “peace” in English means “shalom” in Hebrew. So, as long one uses Strong’s concordance for the purpose for which it was intended, they should not get into too much trouble. Agreed?

Again, it is good to see you, and may your studies also prove fruitful.

[A.W. Bowman]

I still do not see where Strong's errs. EB brings up an interesting point in that "Israel" has a multifaceted definition. But I think a key here is that when Jacob's name was changed to "Israel," the Bible never uses that new name when referring to the man, Jacob. Remember, it says He is the God of Abraham (new name), Jacob (old name, not Israel), and Isaac. Jacob stayed Jacob even after the name change. The name ‘Jacob’ referred to the fleshly man, Jacob, and the name 'Israel' referred to 'the promise,' which is Jesus. Remember, Jesus said when a person searches the scriptures they find that they testify of Him. So we know that it's all about Jesus. Jesus is the door through which all believers must come. He is also the true Israel through which all those in the true Israel of God must come. Once we enter into Jesus through the New Covenant, we then become part of Jesus' body, which is juxtaposition with being members of the True Israel of God.

Interesting move in the discussion. The issue never really involved who or what Jesus is, was, or will be. It is, however, in translating and interpreting scriptures accurately and with integrity, not according to preconceived church dogma, doctrine, or a personal belief system.

Even when the conclusions may be correct, doing violence to scripture is not the way to achieve it. When violence is done unintentionally, then education is all that is required. When violence is done to achieve a personal agenda, then correction is required.

The only issue before this forum is: Does the word Israel mean, "He rules as God"? That is what I took exception to - if one will take the time to review my comments. The answer is still, no, not according to the reason and purpose given by God. Gen 32:24-32. Which is included in my rendering from the Tanakh Hebrew in an earlier post. From this point, please contend directly with the original author.

A slightly better translation would be:

24 ¶ (32:25) And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 (32:26) And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob’s thigh was strained, as he wrestled with him.
26 (32:27) And he said: ‘Let me go, for the day breaketh.’ And he said: ‘I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.’
27 (32:28) And he said unto him: ‘What is thy name?’ And be said: ‘Jacob.’
28 (32:29) And he said: ‘Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed.’
29 (32:30) And Jacob asked him, and said: ‘Tell me, I pray thee, thy name.’ And he said: ‘Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name?’ And he blessed him there.
30 (32:31) And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: ‘for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.’
31 (32:32) And the sun rose upon him as he passed over Peniel, and he limped upon his thigh.
32 (32:33) Therefore the children of Israel eat not the sinew of the thigh-vein which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day; because he touched the hollow of Jacob’s thigh, even in the sinew of the thigh-vein.

[JPS edition]

[Joelel]

It might just be me, but your tone sounds like you feel the need to TELL me rather than ASK me. :winkgrin So here I am, teach me.

Hi,With all you said and the way people connect Jesus as being God and us being the body of Jesus brings up alot of questions of who we are. I see in the scripture,the word of God was made flesh and the Spirit of God In Jesus.When I see Jesus death,I don't see God as having died because the Spirit of God is In him.I see the word of God being dead but not his Spirit because only God's word was made flesh.I see us being made the body of Jesus the Christ (anointing) by the same Spirit of God that is In Jesus being in us.The word kingdom means rule,we see that the kingdom or rule of God is In us by the Holy Ghost.God's Spirit In us tells me that God rules In and through us.We being many members are one body by one Spirit In us.