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Trouvere
12-21-2007, 05:19 AM
Do you feel church people are harsh toward those in the church under going a divorce?

I have friends who tell me that they felt treated very badly and they were the innocent party.

Ronzo
12-21-2007, 05:42 AM
Do you feel church people are harsh toward those in the church under going a divorce?

I have friends who tell me that they felt treated very badly and they were the innocent party.

Yes.

Some treat you like a leper... as if divorce is a communicable disease.

Some come out and let you know right upfront that it is never one sided. "You both made plenty of mistakes"... yeah, thanks for the reminder. One of those mistakes was me telling you my wife left me. Appreciate your compassion. Want your knife back? It's uncomfortable stuck there in my neck.

Brother Price
12-21-2007, 05:48 AM
The Church is the only army which murders it's wounded.

Ronzo
12-21-2007, 05:52 AM
The Church is the only army which murders it's wounded.
Sometimes they don't murder the wounded, sometimes they seem to simply take pleasure in causing more horrific, disfiguring wounds, and even maiming for life.

Brother Price
12-21-2007, 05:57 AM
To me, brother, it is the same thing. One can be murdered in the church spiritually for good. Divorce is a sad situation and something that is horrible to go through. The Church needs to remember that if it was not for the Lord, we would be in some serious trouble.

Neck
12-21-2007, 06:11 AM
Do you feel church people are harsh toward those in the church under going a divorce?

I have friends who tell me that they felt treated very badly and they were the innocent party.

I have always treated folks with respect.

The hard thing is the divorce rate is the same in the church as out of the church. Why?

Esther
12-21-2007, 07:58 AM
I can't say. I feel bad for anyone that is going through a divorce and can't imagine anyone piling on when they are in need of help.

It is sad that the church now has such a high divorce rate.

Joe 7
12-21-2007, 08:10 AM
I believe that divorce is a wide sin but Christians seem to misplace their feelings on it. Especially in the Apostolic / Holiness movement. We seem to hold down the wounded like Brother Price said. It's sad and again a huge trial that many people in this world face. Just like all sins Jesus can wipe that clean. Wash it in the blood of Jesus and it comes out white as snow.

MissBrattified
12-21-2007, 08:16 AM
Unfortunately, some do. It could be as simple as feeling awkward, and not knowing how to behave. Or it could be as awful as deliberately being rude and mean.

Ignorance plays a bigger role than pure malice.

tamor
12-21-2007, 08:21 AM
Do you feel church people are harsh toward those in the church under going a divorce?

I have friends who tell me that they felt treated very badly and they were the innocent party.

I received much love and support from chuch when I was going through divorce. Sure, there were a few folks who were just the opposite, but the majority of my church family loved and helped me and I was never treated as damaged goods.

TRFrance
12-21-2007, 08:27 AM
It is sad that the church now has such a high divorce rate.

The hard thing is the divorce rate is the same in the church as out of the church. Why?

I've heard that statistic, but I strongly doubt it that its accurate, at least as far as Acts 2:38 saints are concerned. That statistic seems to be based on all people who identify themselves as "Christians", or active churchgoers, not Apostolic saints per se.

So since all the polls/surveys on this are mainly dealing with Baptists, Evangelicals, Methodists, etc., that will definitely skew the numbers, but we in the Apostolic church cant look at the published "divorce rate among Christians" as really being accurate for the Apostolic church. As far as I know,theres never been a true poll or survey of the divorce rate among Apostolics. But I'd say the rate is very low. If I had to take a best guess, I'd say probably in the 5-8% range or so, just from what I've observed over the years. (I'm sure some of the Apostolic pastors here can give us a more accurate estimate.)

Revelationist
12-21-2007, 09:22 AM
The answer is yes... but...
God divorced the Old Covenant Church.....
Why don't they treat Him harsh?
Wait, that same group does...
Because we are the temple of God
And when you treat another temple harsh
Your treating God harsh...

DividedThigh
12-21-2007, 09:32 AM
I believe that divorce is a wide sin but Christians seem to misplace their feelings on it. Especially in the Apostolic / Holiness movement. We seem to hold down the wounded like Brother Price said. It's sad and again a huge trial that many people in this world face. Just like all sins Jesus can wipe that clean. Wash it in the blood of Jesus and it comes out white as snow.

the fact is in the church bros and sisters that we do not only hold down the wounded but we beat them while they are down, i know about this from personal experience, innocent and not so innocent, there is an unspoken wall that if you are divorced there has to be something wrong with you, not an opinion, verifiable fact, dt

Pragmatist
12-21-2007, 09:38 AM
I've heard that statistic, but I strongly doubt it that its accurate, at least as far as Acts 2:38 saints are concerned. That statistic seems to be based on all people who identify themselves as "Christians", or active churchgoers, not Apostolic saints per se.

So since all the polls/surveys on this are mainly dealing with Baptists, Evangelicals, Methodists, etc., that will definitely skew the numbers, but we in the Apostolic church cant look at the published "divorce rate among Christians" as really being accurate for the Apostolic church. As far as I know,theres never been a true poll or survey of the divorce rate among Apostolics. But I'd say the rate is very low. If I had to take a best guess, I'd say probably in the 5-8% range or so, just from what I've observed over the years. (I'm sure some of the Apostolic pastors here can give us a more accurate estimate.)

I wish your best guess were true, but sadly I think it's more accurate to say the Apostolic rate is not much different from the world.

Esther
12-21-2007, 09:42 AM
I wish your best guess were true, but sadly I think it's more accurate to say the Apostolic rate is not much different from the world.

that is what I have head.

Trouvere
12-21-2007, 09:45 AM
Wow this is a sore subject.I posted this earlier today on my way to dropping my daughter at school.
I came to God after having been divorced.I was married at seventeen right out of high school and divorced by the time I was twenty one.I was twenty two when someone invited me to a Pentecostal Church service and engaged at the time to a backslider.He always regretted taking me to church because I broke off the engagement to find Gods will.It was an issue when God called me to ministry whether a person who had been divorced before they were saved could be a minister.Thankfully the LaDist UPC board never held it against me.I do know of pastors who will not even allow anyone who has been divorced to teach anything or even sing in the church.They are eternally punished.Its a sad thing.One sister told me that when she came to God the only thing she was allowed to do regardless that her divorce was before salvation was to teach children or sinners.She said the children must have been regarded on the same level as sinners since they did not count.
I was shocked at that.There are people coming to Jesus now that have been married four or five times.Which stone do we throw? It seems like the pharaseeical spirit is very alive and well.I have to wonder.
One church organization will license its ministers if they were married and divorced and remarried before coming to Jesus but if they come to God divorced then they
cannot have been married again if they want to minister.To me that is holding a double standard.They are saying if you want to be a preacher prepare to be alone all the days of your life and watch the rest of us have joy while you suffer forever you horrible sinner.I see a whip involved in this not a cross.

DividedThigh
12-21-2007, 09:49 AM
Wow this is a sore subject.I posted this earlier today on my way to dropping my daughter at school.
I came to God after having been divorced.I was married at seventeen right out of high school and divorced by the time I was twenty one.I was twenty two when someone invited me to a Pentecostal Church service and engaged at the time to a backslider.He always regretted taking me to church because I broke off the engagement to find Gods will.It was an issue when God called me to ministry whether a person who had been divorced before they were saved could be a minister.Thankfully the LaDist UPC board never held it against me.I do know of pastors who will not even allow anyone who has been divorced to teach anything or even sing in the church.They are eternally punished.Its a sad thing.One sister told me that when she came to God the only thing she was allowed to do regardless that her divorce was before salvation was to teach children or sinners.She said the children must have been regarded on the same level as sinners since they did not count.
I was shocked at that.There are people coming to Jesus now that have been married four or five times.Which stone do we throw? It seems like the pharaseeical spirit is very alive and well.I have to wonder.
One church organization will license its ministers if they were married and divorced and remarried before coming to Jesus but if they come to God divorced then they
cannot have been married again if they want to minister.To me that is holding a double standard.They are saying if you want to be a preacher prepare to be alone all the days of your life and watch the rest of us have joy while you suffer forever you horrible sinner.I see a whip involved in this not a cross.

wonder no longer sister that spirit is out there and very much alive still hurting people, to bad, people that are hurt need help and compassion not condemnation, bless you and merry christmas, dt:santathumb

marthaolivia
12-21-2007, 09:56 AM
My husband left me soon after I began going to church. We are now divorced. Once divorced I was no longer included in most of the social activities. I just don't fit. I am not included in the couples dinners, Valentine banquets, family get-togethers, etc. I am too old for the singles group, but at 65 I can't imagine going tubing. *smiles* I guess I am just too busy "cramming for my finals" to let insignificant things bother me. I've learned to be content no matter what..

DividedThigh
12-21-2007, 09:58 AM
My husband left me soon after I began going to church. We are now divorced. Once divorced I was no longer included in most of the social activities. I just don't fit. I am not included in the couples dinners, Valentine banquets, family get-togethers, etc. I am too old for the singles group, but at 65 I can't imagine going tubing. *smiles* I guess I am just too busy "cramming for my finals" to let insignificant things bother me. I've learned to be content no matter what..

good job sis, what a great spirit, the lord be with you and richly bless you, with his love and warmth this holiday, merry christmas, dt:christmasjig

AmazingGrace
12-21-2007, 10:01 AM
I have seen both views hit on but I want to say that my church was so wonderful to me when my divorce happened... it was very hard and very public as he was the music director there. It tore me up yet the church people were so wonderful...

Trouvere
12-21-2007, 10:06 AM
I know how you feel.When I first got saved I attended a home missions church and there was no one to fellowship unless the men were off shore and then their wives could come pray with me at church or go out to eat otherwise I hung with Pastor and his wifey and son.

Trouvere
12-21-2007, 10:07 AM
I have seen both views hit on but I want to say that my church was so wonderful to me when my divorce happened... it was very hard and very public as he was the music director there. It tore me up yet the church people were so wonderful...

How did they treat him?

AmazingGrace
12-21-2007, 10:10 AM
How did they treat him?

Ummm well... he and she left immediately so not sure... then 2 weeks later he got shipped to Iraq and hasnt been back since really sooooooo........... But they didnt condone his actions... Thats as far as I will go on that topic

Mrs. LPW
12-21-2007, 10:10 AM
I believe that divorce is a wide sin but Christians seem to misplace their feelings on it. Especially in the Apostolic / Holiness movement. We seem to hold down the wounded like Brother Price said. It's sad and again a huge trial that many people in this world face. Just like all sins Jesus can wipe that clean. Wash it in the blood of Jesus and it comes out white as snow.

I think it comes from fear that the prevalence of divorce in the world will infiltrate the church. I know in mainstream Christianity it's become much more accepted and so instead of being kind, longsuffering, gentle with the hurting or even the sinning... Church folks get freaked out and do a lot more damage.

There has to be balance... we have to stand for marriage because there is a very real enemy who attacks our marriages and homes, as well as our own humanity that causes marital strife... but we also have to be filled with love toward those who are facing this, and understanding.

It's a delicate balance.

Mrs. LPW
12-21-2007, 10:18 AM
I've heard that statistic, but I strongly doubt it that its accurate, at least as far as Acts 2:38 saints are concerned. That statistic seems to be based on all people who identify themselves as "Christians", or active churchgoers, not Apostolic saints per se.

So since all the polls/surveys on this are mainly dealing with Baptists, Evangelicals, Methodists, etc., that will definitely skew the numbers, but we in the Apostolic church cant look at the published "divorce rate among Christians" as really being accurate for the Apostolic church. As far as I know,theres never been a true poll or survey of the divorce rate among Apostolics. But I'd say the rate is very low. If I had to take a best guess, I'd say probably in the 5-8% range or so, just from what I've observed over the years. (I'm sure some of the Apostolic pastors here can give us a more accurate estimate.)


It's been my observation that what becomes ok in mainstream Christianity often (in time) infiltrates Apostolic ranks as well. It's growing.. it's a growing issue. It's easier and easier for Apostolic saints to give up on their marriages, because the idea that God doesn't want me to be unhappy is shouted from the mountaintops these days... And the amount of television that is watched now, the ideals of the world are being constantly pushed into the minds of Apostolics... like the proverbial frog in the pot, the change in our own hearts is almost inperceptable (sp?) at first.

I'm not being harsh toward those who've had a marriage break up.. please don't think that for one minute! Every circumstance is different.

I just know some folks very personally in the Apostolic church world who've gotten sucked into the "there's no hope of it ever changing so let's call it quits" mentality. Family members included.

Often one party is more willing to work thru than another, which makes it hard.

Twisp
12-21-2007, 10:27 AM
Do you feel church people are harsh toward those in the church under going a divorce?

I have friends who tell me that they felt treated very badly and they were the innocent party.
It happens so much now in church, there is not that big a fuss over it. There have been several in our church over the last year, and it is business as usual after a month or so.

TRFrance
12-21-2007, 11:09 AM
I wish your best guess were true, but sadly I think it's more accurate to say the Apostolic rate is not much different from the world.

I think its a myth that the divorce rate among Christians is similar to whats out there in the world.

Depending on what statistics you rely on, the national divorce rate is roughly about 50%.
http://www.divorcerate.org/

Among professing Christians, the number is significantly lower, percentage-wise, in the 20's to 30's. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm http://www.sullivan-county.com/bush/divorce.htm
(Keep in mind that most of these "professing Christians" in these polls/surveys are not Holy Ghost filled, Spirit-led folk.)

Does anyone really believe the percentage is that high in the Apostolic church? I say not even close. I'd say not even 10%, if that much.

I think we can agree though, whatever actual the number is... it's still too high.


.

Trouvere
12-21-2007, 11:17 AM
It's been my observation that what becomes ok in mainstream Christianity often (in time) infiltrates Apostolic ranks as well. It's growing.. it's a growing issue. It's easier and easier for Apostolic saints to give up on their marriages, because the idea that God doesn't want me to be unhappy is shouted from the mountaintops these days... And the amount of television that is watched now, the ideals of the world are being constantly pushed into the minds of Apostolics... like the proverbial frog in the pot, the change in our own hearts is almost inperceptable (sp?) at first.

I'm not being harsh toward those who've had a marriage break up.. please don't think that for one minute! Every circumstance is different.

I just know some folks very personally in the Apostolic church world who've gotten sucked into the "there's no hope of it ever changing so let's call it quits" mentality. Family members included.

Often one party is more willing to work thru than another, which makes it hard.

I have known some to suffer abuse for years over the "its going to change mentality" as well.I don't think anyone is rejoicing to just call it quits.

Mrs. LPW
12-21-2007, 11:25 AM
I have known some to suffer abuse for years over the "its going to change mentality" as well.I don't think anyone is rejoicing to just call it quits.

You don't know me, so you don't know the spirit in which I post.

I know there are abusive relationships.. my mother in law was beaten with a belt by her husband in places where bruises would not show to the public... my husband was punched in the face at a young age by his father... they obviously divorced. I am very aware of abuses... and there are definitely circumstances that require the marriage to disolve. I've never insinuated there weren't...

But the fact is... I have two close people to me... one a relative, who've ended their marriages because they didn't work through it... Apostolics...
One party in each marriage wanted to work through it... and the other party just wanted it over... the ideals of the modern era have crept in to Christianity.


My point is that divorce is rising in the Apostolic ranks, and it scares some church folks and thus they are hard and harsh on those who go through this...
Then there are the Apostolics who are just plain idiots and it's just fodder for them to talk and judge.

You have to have love and compassion and longsuffering when dealing with these issues, as well as standing for marriage at the same time.

Trouvere
12-21-2007, 11:33 AM
You don't know me, so you don't know the spirit in which I post.

I know there are abusive relationships.. my mother in law was beaten with a belt by her husband in places where bruises would not show to the public... my husband was punched in the face at a young age by his father... they obviously divorced. I am very aware of abuses... and there are definitely circumstances that require the marriage to disolve. I've never insinuated there weren't...

But the fact is... I have two close people to me... one a relative, who've ended their marriages because they didn't work through it... Apostolics...
One party in each marriage wanted to work through it... and the other party just wanted it over... the ideals of the modern era have crept in to Christianity.


My point is that divorce is rising in the Apostolic ranks, and it scares some church folks and thus they are hard and harsh on those who go through this...
Then there are the Apostolics who are just plain idiots and it's just fodder for them to talk and judge.

You have to have love and compassion and longsuffering when dealing with these issues, as well as standing for marriage at the same time.


Sister you took offense and did not have to.It was not a personal attack but its hard looking at the suffering of others from a safe vantage point.Its easy to say things when you aren't the one suffering.I don't think the statement divorce is on the rise can be properly validated.I haven't seen alot of divorce in the last twenty years.There have been a few but I haven't seen alot.I suppose life happens to all its just more noticable within a group of people who preach against divorce.

Mrs. LPW
12-21-2007, 11:38 AM
Sister you took offense and did not have to.It was not a personal attack but its hard looking at the suffering of others from a safe vantage point.Its easy to say things when you aren't the one suffering.I don't think the statement divorce is on the rise can be properly validated.I haven't seen alot of divorce in the last twenty years.There have been a few but I haven't seen alot.I suppose life happens to all its just more noticable within a group of people who preach against divorce.

It's on the rise in my church alone. I can only surmise the battle is everywhere.

And I don't want to get personal because I've made it my business not to share my business to the world... but I know how close my husband and I came to calling it quits. There is a very real battle on for our families and marriages right now.
I can honestly say I speak from shoes that have walked through some of these places....

The reason I became defensive, is because I have been personally touched by divorce and rocky marriages, in my own life and in some close family and some close friends... all of us being Apostlic Christians...

Trouvere
12-21-2007, 11:47 AM
I think people need healing and love in all circumstances.I wonder if somehow people are so offended by divorce that they react in strange manners toward those who are going through it.I have a friend whose pastor husband announced to the church that he was having an affair and could not keep up the charade and she was on the front pew and heard this for the first time.
It was devastating.They are divorced and he is married to his girlfriend now.

AmazingGrace
12-21-2007, 11:49 AM
It is extremely hard on pastors and their families when it directly involves them (is them) been thru that one done that and dont want to ever go there again!!!

Ronzo
12-21-2007, 12:10 PM
I believe that divorce is a wide sin but Christians seem to misplace their feelings on it. Especially in the Apostolic / Holiness movement. We seem to hold down the wounded like Brother Price said. It's sad and again a huge trial that many people in this world face. Just like all sins Jesus can wipe that clean. Wash it in the blood of Jesus and it comes out white as snow.
Divorce is not a sin to both parties, friend...

Ronzo
12-21-2007, 12:10 PM
The answer is yes... but...
God divorced the Old Covenant Church.....
Why don't they treat Him harsh?
Wait, that same group does...
Because we are the temple of God
And when you treat another temple harsh
Your treating God harsh...
Thou speakest truth-eth

Trouvere
12-21-2007, 12:11 PM
I believe that sin results in alot of divorces.Be honest since when do we lose all sense and expect people who living with someone who is extremely unfaithful to
continually forgive them? Naw if it were our husband or wife it would be the frying pan over the head or divorce court but when the shoe is on the foot of our brother or sister we expect the extra mile.I know of people who were the wronged party but felt they could never remarry live years bitterly and joyously while the guilty party went on to have children and grandchildren going to the church down the road etc.
Why the double standard I wonder?

Ronzo
12-21-2007, 12:12 PM
I don't think divorce is a sin.I believe that sin results in alot of divorces.
Very accurate statement.

That's actually what I meant...

Trouvere
12-21-2007, 12:17 PM
There are some who will not marry two people in the church if one of them has ever been divorced yet they will accept them as members after the fact.

Brother Price
12-21-2007, 12:27 PM
A divorce is a breaking of the covenant. It occurs when ONE party is unfaithful. No, both parties are not guilty in a divorce. What we consider divorce is merely legal proceedings today. A true divorce is when the covenant is broken, not when a judge says so.

Trouvere
12-21-2007, 12:29 PM
A divorce is a breaking of the covenant. It occurs when ONE party is unfaithful. No, both parties are not guilty in a divorce. What we consider divorce is merely legal proceedings today. A true divorce is when the covenant is broken, not when a judge says so.

this post reminded me of what the bible says about truce breakers.Sadly not everyone wants it broken.

dizzyde
12-21-2007, 12:30 PM
You don't know me, so you don't know the spirit in which I post.

I know there are abusive relationships.. my mother in law was beaten with a belt by her husband in places where bruises would not show to the public... my husband was punched in the face at a young age by his father... they obviously divorced. I am very aware of abuses... and there are definitely circumstances that require the marriage to disolve. I've never insinuated there weren't...

But the fact is... I have two close people to me... one a relative, who've ended their marriages because they didn't work through it... Apostolics...
One party in each marriage wanted to work through it... and the other party just wanted it over... the ideals of the modern era have crept in to Christianity.


My point is that divorce is rising in the Apostolic ranks, and it scares some church folks and thus they are hard and harsh on those who go through this...
Then there are the Apostolics who are just plain idiots and it's just fodder for them to talk and judge.

You have to have love and compassion and longsuffering when dealing with these issues, as well as standing for marriage at the same time.

Thank you for this post.

I try to stay away from these discussions because my emotions tend to run very high on the subject. I have vast experience in the topic, and I can come at it from every angle.

I have never "laid it all out there" before on the forum, but since this seems to be a thread started from a genuine concern and responded to accordingly, I decided to share some of what I have learned.

I have been divorced twice "in the church", so I have a bigger scarlett letter than most. My first observation is that overall, in my experienceat least, the church has been very caring, and loving.

My first marriage was a very obvious, very black and white situation that was easy for most people to understand. I was the "wounded" party, and I encountered very little ugliness from people about it. Mostly from his family, but even then, very little.

My second marriage was a more murky situation, a gray area for the church, something that no one really wants to talk about much. For me, it was very clear, it was a matter of survival. I was the perceived "guilty" party, and I pretty much accepted that at the time. I would have done anything to save myself, and I actually walked away from God because of it. I knew what everyone would think and believe, so it was easier to just give up.

I luckily had people who loved me and cared for me, and they were able to minister the love of God to me in a way that made me see that no matter what anyone else thought of me, God still loved me.

The points that I wanted to make regarding all of this have to do with the things I highlighted in the post above.

The first is that NO ONE knows what goes on behind closed doors. To judge a situation that you have not personally lived through is very foolish. There are people who are masterful at hiding things.

The second thing is that just because a person says they want to work things doesn't mean that they really do. Sometimes people will play a role just for sympathy and to bolster their role as the wounded. If they say they want to work things out, and continue to act like a devil behind closed doors, they really don't want to work things out. Just for clarification, this is not always the case, I am fully aware of that, I just wanted people to see the other side of that coin.


The third thing is that as I said, over all, I have found people to be loving and caring. The few situations where that has not been true, I think for the most part have been because people don't know what to do. I understand that, it is a very uncomfortable and awkward subject.

The fourth is that yes, there are some very stupid Apostolic people who go around mouthing off their opinions on this topic, and it is a shame. I have seen it on this board on a couple of occasions. The bottom line is that divorce is a very ugly thing to go through, and to go around passing judgement on situations that you are not intimately involved with is just not wise.

My last thought is that, despite all evidence to the contrary (:toofunny), I do not believe in divorce, and I do believe every effort possible should be made to save a marriage.

nahkoe
12-21-2007, 12:36 PM
My last thought is that, despite all evidence to the contrary (:toofunny), I do not believe in divorce, and I do believe every effort possible should be made to save a marriage.


I hear ya. Do you ever feel stupid saying that? lol "I don't believe in divorce" and in your next breath "My ex-husband..."

I try not to talk about it cuz...well...it sounds strange.

That and I still feel like I failed, I was the party who did not want the divorce and only gave to him what he asked for when it became a matter of personal safety.

dizzyde
12-21-2007, 12:45 PM
I hear ya. Do you ever feel stupid saying that? lol "I don't believe in divorce" and in your next breath "My ex-husband..."

I try not to talk about it cuz...well...it sounds strange.

That and I still feel like I failed, I was the party who did not want the divorce and only gave to him what he asked for when it became a matter of personal safety.

I think the failure mentality is there regardless of the situation. It is just in us to look around at everybody else who is sucessful at it and wonder why we couldn't get it right.

SDG
12-21-2007, 01:10 PM
Thank you Dizzy for sharing and being so candid. Unfortunately, very few can identify w/ the layers found in the different and unique situations that arise when couples divorce.

Our God hats divorce because he wants the best for us ... he knows the hurt and trauma it brings to all involved.

I pray that those in our circles one day understand that we can hate what divorce is ... but not shun the divorcee.

SDG
12-21-2007, 01:15 PM
My last thought is that, despite all evidence to the contrary (:toofunny), I do not believe in divorce, and I do believe every effort possible should be made to save a marriage.

Ditto.

I hope next time ... for me ... it's forever.

marthaolivia
12-21-2007, 01:40 PM
I turned my hurt from divorce into laughter. Check out my photo album on My Space. I have a photo album dedicated to my ex. It helps me cope.

http://www.myspace.com/imaweeper

This is not meant to be mean-spirited..just meant to be funny.

nahkoe
12-21-2007, 01:44 PM
Ditto.

I hope next time ... for me ... it's forever.


If I ever decide it's worth even risking again, I too hope it's forever next time.

dizzyde
12-21-2007, 01:54 PM
Ditto.

I hope next time ... for me ... it's forever.


Me too DA, but I doubt that will happen for me, it's been 9 years and I am still terrified of the thought. But, I have peace in my life, and that is a gift from God.

dizzyde
12-21-2007, 01:58 PM
I turned my hurt from divorce into laughter. Check out my photo album on My Space. I have a photo album dedicated to my ex. It helps me cope.

http://www.myspace.com/imaweeper

This is not meant to be mean-spirited..just meant to be funny.

Martha, you are a crazy girl!! Love ya!

SDG
12-21-2007, 02:04 PM
Me too DA, but I doubt that will happen for me, it's been 9 years and I am still terrified of the thought. But, I have peace in my life, and that is a gift from God.

Deathly terrified .... also ....

There are times I say I'll wait until Danah is in college [8 more years] ....

and there are times I wish I had someone now to share life w/ again.

marthaolivia
12-21-2007, 02:06 PM
Dizzy De:
You always brighten my day. There are times when I am down and find a message from you. God bless you and your beautiful family.

Sister Alvear
12-21-2007, 02:21 PM
I have seen pastors and people mistreat others because of divorce...but that is not the right thing to do...
I heard someone harshly say some cutting remarks about someone when I was in the states...I thought Yeah...you have got kids...what we say has a way of comong home.

dizzyde
12-21-2007, 02:22 PM
Deathly terrified .... also ....

There are times I say I'll wait until Danah is in college [8 more years] ....

and there are times I wish I had someone now to share life w/ again.


I totally understand, and not to make it worse but I can definitely say that remarriage with children involved is very tricky. You have to be certain that you can completely trust your partner.

I also understand wishing to have someone to share your life with, it is a very lonely road being a single parent. (aside from just wanting to have a best friend)

I also know that there are a whole lot worse things than being alone.

I'm quite the encourager, aren't I! LOL, no, I hope you know I'm not trying be a downer, just sharing!

dizzyde
12-21-2007, 02:27 PM
Dizzy De:
You always brighten my day. There are times when I am down and find a message from you. God bless you and your beautiful family.

Likewise, my dear friend. :christmaskiss

SDG
12-21-2007, 02:29 PM
I totally understand, and not to make it worse but I can definitely say that remarriage with children involved is very tricky. You have to be certain that you can completely trust your partner.

I also understand wishing to have someone to share your life with, it is a very lonely road being a single parent. (aside from just wanting to have a best friend)

I also know that there are a whole lot worse things than being alone.

I'm quite the encourager, aren't I! LOL, no, I hope you know I'm not trying be a downer, just sharing!

No ... I really appreciate your perspective, DizzyDe.

Other than the slew of other issues that come with becoming a blended family w/ someone else ...

I worry about confusing my kids if I got re-married.

Yet, I want them to value marriage .... Its hard right now for them to do so ... not seeing a model to identify w/.

Ronzo
12-21-2007, 02:37 PM
Ditto.

I hope next time ... for me ... it's forever.

I know what you mean bro...

I NEVER want to go through this again.

Thad
12-21-2007, 02:40 PM
***WARNING:***

Hide this Thread from Epley,Old Path, Bishop and Kansas Preacher!!

SDG
12-21-2007, 02:41 PM
***WARNING:***

Hide this Thread from Epley,Old Path, Bishop and Kansas Preacher!!

Nothing to gain.

Nothing to lose.

Nothing to hide.

nahkoe
12-21-2007, 02:47 PM
No ... I really appreciate your perspective, DizzyDe.

Other than the slew of other issues that come with becoming a blended family w/ someone else ...

I worry about confusing my kids if I got re-married.

Yet, I want them to value marriage .... Its hard right now for them to do so ... not seeing a model to identify w/.

I have a lot of the same concerns. I'd like them to have a *Christian* marriage to look at. Their daddy is remarried, and they have 2 half siblings already there. I figure no man w/o kids would really be willing to take on 4 more. Oh there's that too..I have FOUR kids. Are there really any men out there who'd take on 4 kids that aren't theirs? But ok, so if there is he probably has kids already. Now we're talking a 2nd ex in the picture (probably) and half siblings and blending a household somehow. Then what if there come along more kids later? Not that I'm really thinking that sounds like a good idea, but things happen. It all makes my head hurt.

That's where I start feeling like a really big failure. I married for life, to a person who married for life, so we could have kids and raise them in an intact home. Each child was conceived with that promise, and my kids still lost out.

SDG
12-21-2007, 02:48 PM
I have a lot of the same concerns. I'd like them to have a *Christian* marriage to look at. Their daddy is remarried, and they have 2 half siblings already there. I figure no man w/o kids would really be willing to take on 4 more. Oh there's that too..I have FOUR kids. Are there really any men out there who'd take on 4 kids that aren't theres? But ok, so if there is he probably has kids already. Now we're talking a 2nd ex in the picture (probably) and half siblings and blending a household somehow. Then what if there come along more kids later? Not that I'm really thinking that sounds like a good idea, but things happen. It all makes my head hurt.

That's where I start feeling like a really big failure. I married for life, to a person who married for life, so we could have kids and raise them in an intact home. Each child was conceived with that promise, and my kids still lost out.

Yep. I can relate. Just a mess.

Ronzo
12-21-2007, 02:53 PM
***WARNING:***

Hide this Thread from Epley,Old Path, Bishop and Kansas Preacher!!
I couldn't care less what comments they have to make about it...

nahkoe
12-21-2007, 02:54 PM
I couldn't care less what comments they have to make about it...

That's kind of how I'm thinking.

What is, is. I can't go back in time and change any of it. Judge me if you want to. My God doesn't, and my pastor doesn't, and that's more than I ever hoped for.

dizzyde
12-21-2007, 02:56 PM
No ... I really appreciate your perspective, DizzyDe.

Other than the slew of other issues that come with becoming a blended family w/ someone else ...

I worry about confusing my kids if I got re-married.

Yet, I want them to value marriage .... Its hard right now for them to do so ... not seeing a model to identify w/.

I understand what you are saying, and don't want you to think that I think you should wait to remarry. I certainly don't think that. God can lead you into the perfect relationship for you and your family.

I went through the same emotions about my daughter, how was she ever going to learn the right things about marriage in our situation. I have been single since she was 11, and she is 20 now.

In my personal experience, I was lucky that I had family close by, her grandparents and aunts and uncles who all had strong, Godly marriages that she was around on a regular basis. And we talked a lot. I was always careful to make sure that she understood that our circumstance was not the way that God intended it to be, and that while our life was good, God had more than that in store for her.

I don't know if you have family around you, but you can also build a network of friends that you want to expose your children to on a regular basis, so they can see the beauty of Godly marriage. There is no perfect solution, this is part of the ugliness of divorce.

I strongly encourage open communication with your children, kids are not idiots, and they see more than we know. I don't mean sharing ugly details with them, but just allowing them to talk about what is going on in their heads and how they are perceiving what is going on.

When my daughter was in her early teens she went through a phase where she was really hung up on her life not being "fair". And she was right, it wasn't fair. I let her express that, but I always made sure that she understood that while life wasn't "fair", she also had incredible blessings. That while things were not perfect, they also weren't horrible. She had a parent who was completely devoted to her, a reasonably comfortable lifestyle, and multiple family members who would do just about anything for her. That is more than a lot of kids can say.

I guess my extremely long winded point is that, kids are remarkably resilient, and they can take a whole lot as long as they know that they are loved, and if you are trying your best to make the right choices for them.

I'll shut up now, got to get off the computer and do some last minute shopping!

Ronzo
12-21-2007, 02:56 PM
That's kind of how I'm thinking.

What is, is. I can't go back in time and change any of it. Judge me if you want to. My God doesn't, and my pastor doesn't, and that's more than I ever hoped for.
Amen to that.

I don't live for them and I don't turn to them for my redemption, restoration, or daily grace to put one foot in front of the other in my recovery.

They can spout off if they wish... but it doesn't make any difference to me.

dizzyde
12-21-2007, 03:00 PM
***WARNING:***

Hide this Thread from Epley,Old Path, Bishop and Kansas Preacher!!

The thing is that if you have been down this road, other peoples opinions, outside of the ones who have been involved in the situation, just don't matter a whole lot. My parents, my pastor and I have dealt with every ugly aspect of this, and outside of that, well, sorry.

dizzyde
12-21-2007, 03:01 PM
That's kind of how I'm thinking.

What is, is. I can't go back in time and change any of it. Judge me if you want to. My God doesn't, and my pastor doesn't, and that's more than I ever hoped for.

Exactly!!

BoredOutOfMyMind
12-21-2007, 03:01 PM
Yep. I can relate. Just a mess.


My Dad's 3rd wife had 4 boys. It was my sister and I there every other weekend and six weeks in the summer.

It was a mess but for about 6 yrs they worked through it well. They were Baptists and they got it done even forcing us to church on Sunday Mornings.

I still call her "Mom" and I still visit her.

It can be done.

SDG
12-21-2007, 03:05 PM
Thank you Dizzy and Boom for your posts ....

Nahkoe and Ron too.

BoredOutOfMyMind
12-21-2007, 03:07 PM
Thank you Dizzy and Boom for your posts ....

Nahkoe and Ron too.

Divorced children will close up and will never trust the way children from other families will. I have idiosyncries (sp?) that I battle simply due to the breakup of my parents. I have identified some of them and overcome some. I still do not trust others very openly.

nahkoe
12-21-2007, 03:11 PM
Divorced children will close up and will never trust the way children from other families will. I have idiosyncries (sp?) that I battle simply due to the breakup of my parents. I have identified some of them and overcome some. I still do not trust others very openly.


Oh we just had to go there didn't we!?

I grew up in a divorced home. I struggled with trusting God in my past. I am now a divorced woman, and I simply can not trust God. I am struggling with this like nothing I knew was possible. Love? You've got to be kidding me...love=hurt.

And gee thanks for the vote of confidence in raising kids. lol I know that's not what you meant, but punch in the gut again. I know what struggles my kids face and it makes me so sad. I wish I could make everything all better for them, but I can't.

BoredOutOfMyMind
12-21-2007, 03:15 PM
Oh we just had to go there didn't we!?

I grew up in a divorced home. I struggled with trusting God in my past. I am now a divorced woman, and I simply can not trust God. I am struggling with this like nothing I knew was possible. Love? You've got to be kidding me...love=hurt.

And gee thanks for the vote of confidence in raising kids. lol I know that's not what you meant, but punch in the gut again. I know what struggles my kids face and it makes me so sad. I wish I could make everything all better for them, but I can't.

I did not mean this as a punch in the gut at all.

I speak for myself and thought I would add another side.

:sorry

nahkoe
12-21-2007, 03:20 PM
I did not mean this as a punch in the gut at all.

I speak for myself and thought I would add another side.

:sorry


I know you didn't. I think the other side is important to see. I really do wonder how many divorces would be avoided if the parents only knew what it does to the kids. Obviously, knowing can't prevent all of them.

And I'm a bit touchy about this right now. I just sent all 4 of the kids with daddy for 2 weeks, the 3 year old for the first time. I got to hear his voice last night when he was missing me and know I can't make this better for him, or the others. He barely even knows his daddy so he's in a virtual strangers house, 10 hours away from me, for 2 weeks.

I admit to, and apologize for, reading through this filter.

SDG
12-21-2007, 03:22 PM
I understand what you are saying, and don't want you to think that I think you should wait to remarry. I certainly don't think that. God can lead you into the perfect relationship for you and your family.

I went through the same emotions about my daughter, how was she ever going to learn the right things about marriage in our situation. I have been single since she was 11, and she is 20 now.

In my personal experience, I was lucky that I had family close by, her grandparents and aunts and uncles who all had strong, Godly marriages that she was around on a regular basis. And we talked a lot. I was always careful to make sure that she understood that our circumstance was not the way that God intended it to be, and that while our life was good, God had more than that in store for her.

I don't know if you have family around you, but you can also build a network of friends that you want to expose your children to on a regular basis, so they can see the beauty of Godly marriage. There is no perfect solution, this is part of the ugliness of divorce.

I strongly encourage open communication with your children, kids are not idiots, and they see more than we know. I don't mean sharing ugly details with them, but just allowing them to talk about what is going on in their heads and how they are perceiving what is going on.

When my daughter was in her early teens she went through a phase where she was really hung up on her life not being "fair". And she was right, it wasn't fair. I let her express that, but I always made sure that she understood that while life wasn't "fair", she also had incredible blessings. That while things were not perfect, they also weren't horrible. She had a parent who was completely devoted to her, a reasonably comfortable lifestyle, and multiple family members who would do just about anything for her. That is more than a lot of kids can say.

I guess my extremely long winded point is that, kids are remarkably resilient, and they can take a whole lot as long as they know that they are loved, and if you are trying your best to make the right choices for them.

I'll shut up now, got to get off the computer and do some last minute shopping!

Diz, I don't have any family here in Houston that the kids can relate to .... that's one of the things that has compounded this ....

As for networking ... it's taken time ... I've never lived here before ... and believe it or not .... I'm not an extrovert ... or very social.

Something ... I'm presently working on....

My oldest saw what a two parent home is ....

and today as we drove home from the cemetery ...

She reminisced about our family vacations w/ my parents .... and her aunt and uncles .... she said she missed everyone being together ....

It tore me apart.

I, of course, reassured her.

They are resilient .... I hope I can keep up.

berkeley
12-21-2007, 03:23 PM
You are not an extrovert??

SDG
12-21-2007, 03:25 PM
You are not an extrovert??

No. Those who know me personally will concur.

berkeley
12-21-2007, 03:28 PM
I am shocked.

SDG
12-21-2007, 03:30 PM
I am shocked.

I'm working on it ... and often even forcing myself to be more forward in my one-on-one dealings w/ people.

nahkoe
12-21-2007, 03:36 PM
I'm working on it ... and often even forcing myself to be more forward in my one-on-one dealings w/ people.

I'm not an extrovert either. At all. I completely understand having to force yourself to be more forward. I'm going to make peanut brittle with the sweetest people alive tonight, and I keep trying to come up with reasons not to go. lol

Ronzo
12-21-2007, 05:04 PM
I'm not an extrovert either but I've found that I need to make extra effort to open up and get out of my shell, because it helps with the depression when I do that.

Getting out and doing things I don't normally do seriously helps me to stretch and become a more well rounded person. Well rounded people are attracted to well rounded people. I want the next one to be a well rounded person, so I need to be as well...

Granted, I'm thinking way ahead here because I'm not even close to being ready to consider another relationship. I'm still carrying baggage...


By the way, Thanks to Trouvere for this thread... I'm happy to be able to express myself like this on AFF, and I know some of the rest of the folks who've been there are thankful as well...

nahkoe
12-21-2007, 05:09 PM
I'm not an extrovert either but I've found that I need to make extra effort to open up and get out of my shell, because it helps with the depression when I do that.

Getting out and doing things I don't normally do seriously helps me to stretch and become a more well rounded person. Well rounded people are attracted to well rounded people. I want the next one to be a well rounded person, so I need to be as well...

Granted, I'm thinking way ahead here because I'm not even close to being ready to consider another relationship. I'm still carrying baggage...


By the way, Thanks to Trouvere for this thread... I'm happy to be able to express myself like this on AFF, and I know some of the rest of the folks who've been there are thankful as well...


I started out thinking about "the next one" but over time came to the conclusion that *I* deserve to be healthy and well. Just for myself.

I almost always enjoy myself when I get out. It's just that push to go do it that's still hard.

And yes, thank you Sister Trouvere.

OneAccord
12-21-2007, 05:15 PM
I met a couple in Florida, who, before coming to the Lord, had ben through divorces. They met, were married and came to the Lord. After a while they were invited to participate in the services (sing, teach Sunday School, etc.) They the pastor found out they had been divorced. They were "sat" down and were told they could take no active part in the church. They were told they couldn't be stopped from attending church there, but that, because of their divorces, they'd both spend eternity in hell.

Another church: A young lady came to the Lord whose husband was a cheater, and drug user. He left her... divorced her and remarried. The sister was told she would have to remain unmarried the rest of her life. It was suggested, however, that she could pray that the Lord take her husbands life, so she could remarry.

In regards to the subject of divorce, theres a lot of people who will have to give account for their false teaching.

Ronzo
12-21-2007, 05:22 PM
I started out thinking about "the next one" but over time came to the conclusion that *I* deserve to be healthy and well. Just for myself.

I almost always enjoy myself when I get out. It's just that push to go do it that's still hard.

And yes, thank you Sister Trouvere.
I'm beginning to see this myself... I'm beginning to remember that I do in fact have value and God WANTS me to have Life more abundant.

I'm not a piece of trash that deserves to be thrown on the side of the road, even though that's exactly what happened to me. God values me so much that he paid a price of his very own blood to be with me, so I MUST have worth... and if he said He came into this world as a man so that we can have life more abundant, then he must really want me to live that abundant life... NOW.

Ronzo
12-21-2007, 05:24 PM
I met a couple in Florida, who, before coming to the Lord, had ben through divorces. They met, were married and came to the Lord. After a while they were invited to participate in the services (sing, teach Sunday School, etc.) They the pastor found out they had been divorced. They were "sat" down and were told they could take no active part in the church. They were told they couldn't be stopped from attending church there, but that, because of their divorces, they'd both spend eternity in hell.

Another church: A young lady came to the Lord whose husband was a cheater, and drug user. He left her... divorced her and remarried. The sister was told she would have to remain unmarried the rest of her life. It was suggested, however, that she could pray that the Lord take her husbands life, so she could remarry.


Just know that I'm pretty sick of this type of ignorance in the church... but I'll refrain from further comment on these two situations because more than likely, I'll say something really ugly...

OneAccord
12-21-2007, 05:34 PM
Just know that I'm pretty sick of this type of ignorance in the church... but I'll refrain from further comment on these two situations because more than likely, I'll say something really ugly...

You're sick of it? Imagine how God must feel when He hears this kind of teaching. I believe He said something about "spewing..out of His mouth".

Ronzo
12-21-2007, 05:36 PM
You're sick of it? Imagine how God must feel when He hears this kind of teaching. I believe He said something about "spewing..out of His mouth".
I know.

rgcraig
12-21-2007, 05:57 PM
Good thread and good discussion taking place!

Rhoni
12-21-2007, 06:39 PM
Sometimes they don't murder the wounded, sometimes they seem to simply take pleasure in causing more horrific, disfiguring wounds, and even maiming for life.


You know, I don't think that purposely set out to hurt those of us who are divorced, I just don't think they know what to do with us.
If they use us then they get criticisized for using damaged goods.
If they don't use us we feel more victimized and hurt.
If they have never been divorced they don't know the pain, and if they are divorced they don't know what to do with the pain.
They don't 'believe' in divorce, don't 'believe' in counseling then sometimes are not really sure what they believe in.Question

THERE WAS ONE COMMENT MADE ABOUT DO WE ACCCEPT THE 'INNOCENT PARTY'.
1. IS IT EASIER TO FORGIVE AND ACCEPT THAT PERSON BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T COMMIT ADULTERY?, OR
2. IS THERE A PLACE OF REPENTANCE, FORGIVENESS, AND MERCY THAT LOVE COVERS...OR NOT?

ANOTHER COMMENT WAS MADE ABOUT PEOPLE NOT STANDING BY THE 'INNOCENT PARTY'.

There are some things people need to know about in order to adequately minister to divorced people:

Choosing sides separates friends, families, church congregations, and 'labels' one or the other, if not both as 'damaged'.
There is no 'innocent' party. One may not be guilty of adultery but may be guilty of a majority of other things that are just as vital to the success of a marriage. [If only denying a problem exists and not seeking to rectify it]
All sins, except for blaspheming the Holy Ghost are forgiveable.There are many things to consider when discussing this subject.

Rhoni
12-21-2007, 06:46 PM
I can't say. I feel bad for anyone that is going through a divorce and can't imagine anyone piling on when they are in need of help.

It is sad that the church now has such a high divorce rate.

According to research: divorce rates since 1996 have been the highest among fundamentalist Pentecostals - even among ministry. I went to a UPCI Single's Conference inIndianapolis in 1997 and there was a class for divorced ex-Pastor's wives. There were over 50 in attendance. This is a shame. The issues raised were all similar:

Being alienated from usefulness and fellowship.
No acceptance of the ex-Preacher's wife in otehr congregations.
Being labled and made an outcast and an object of scorn.
Feelings of abandonment and rejection from the church body as a whole as well as the abandonement and rejection they felt from ex-spouses.

rgcraig
12-21-2007, 06:48 PM
There is no 'innocent' party. One may not be guilty of adultery but may be guilty of a majority of other things that are just as vital to

I believe there are some exceptions to this.

What if one party is into porn or have unresolved problems from their past. Or have a bent to being abusive.

How can that problem be shared with the other party? Surely, you aren't suggesting that the "innocent" party could have done something differently to prevent them from being that way.

Rhoni
12-21-2007, 06:49 PM
I've heard that statistic, but I strongly doubt it that its accurate, at least as far as Acts 2:38 saints are concerned. That statistic seems to be based on all people who identify themselves as "Christians", or active churchgoers, not Apostolic saints per se.

So since all the polls/surveys on this are mainly dealing with Baptists, Evangelicals, Methodists, etc., that will definitely skew the numbers, but we in the Apostolic church cant look at the published "divorce rate among Christians" as really being accurate for the Apostolic church. As far as I know,theres never been a true poll or survey of the divorce rate among Apostolics. But I'd say the rate is very low. If I had to take a best guess, I'd say probably in the 5-8% range or so, just from what I've observed over the years. (I'm sure some of the Apostolic pastors here can give us a more accurate estimate.)

I answered this in the previous post...how ignorant of you to post that there are no "Christians" except Apostolics, and that the divorce rate isn't as high. Why don't we poll this forum on how many ex-ministry and Apostolic people on this forum are in fact DIVORCED!

Rhoni
12-21-2007, 06:54 PM
I believe there are some exceptions to this.

What if one party is into porn or have unresolved problems from their past. Or have a bent to being abusive.

How can that problem be shared with the other party? Surely, you aren't suggesting that the "innocent" party could have done something differently to prevent them from being that way.

Actually Renda, I do believe there are exceptions to every rule. The only thing that might be faulted is that the person covered the sin of their spouse and stayed in the relationship longer than they should have. I think there are many things on the same level or worse than physical adultery.

Mental Cruelty
Physical, mental, emotional, spiritual abuse
Alienation of affection
Withholding sexfor some...

Again, there are exceptions to every rule but only God truly knows the hearts.

Blessings, Rhoni

Rhoni
12-21-2007, 06:59 PM
My husband left me soon after I began going to church. We are now divorced. Once divorced I was no longer included in most of the social activities. I just don't fit. I am not included in the couples dinners, Valentine banquets, family get-togethers, etc. I am too old for the singles group, but at 65 I can't imagine going tubing. *smiles* I guess I am just too busy "cramming for my finals" to let insignificant things bother me. I've learned to be content no matter what..


Statistics show that men remarry within 6 mos- 2 years whereas women between 5-7 if they ever remarry. There are numerous reasons for this:

As you have stated...women are busy getting re-trained/re-educated to join the workforce.
Women usually have the children and don't have time to think about dating, nor the opportunity to do so because of the time and expense for sitters, ect.
Women who are divorced are excluded, especially if they have any beauty at all because the married women hold tight to their husbands and fear that every single woman is trying to steal their husbands...such a falacy BTW.

rgcraig
12-21-2007, 07:01 PM
Women who are divorced are excluded, especially if they have any beauty at all because the married women hold tight to their husbands and fear that every single woman is trying to steal their husbands...such a falacy BTW.[/LIST]

What? They should be excluded from married men.

Rhoni
12-21-2007, 07:05 PM
I think it comes from fear that the prevalence of divorce in the world will infiltrate the church. I know in mainstream Christianity it's become much more accepted and so instead of being kind, longsuffering, gentle with the hurting or even the sinning... Church folks get freaked out and do a lot more damage.

There has to be balance... we have to stand for marriage because there is a very real enemy who attacks our marriages and homes, as well as our own humanity that causes marital strife... but we also have to be filled with love toward those who are facing this, and understanding.

It's a delicate balance.

Mrs. LPW, This is a good post. Some preventative things that need to happen in our churches:

Educating our children, teens on what a 'healthy' relationship is/looks like using scripture.
Educating Adults on scriptural roles for husbands, wives, & children.
Guidance in dating and boundaries.
Extensive pre-marital counseling.
after marriage - teaching and marriage enrichment activities and support groups.

Some things lacking in many of our assmeblies.

Hoovie
12-21-2007, 07:06 PM
Statistics show that men remarry within 6 mos- 2 years whereas women between 5-7 if they ever remarry.

these men that remarry are they getting married to other men? Or why would it not effect men and women equally?:jolly

Rhoni
12-21-2007, 07:07 PM
What? They should be excluded from married men.

I will clarify: Single women are excluded from group activites or going out to eat with other couples they previously associated with. I have heard married couples say they thought the single person would feel uncomfortable, but I think it is the married couple that feels uncomfortable.

Does that help?

rgcraig
12-21-2007, 07:07 PM
these men that remarry are they getting married to other men? Or why would it not effect men and women equally?:jollyBecause some of the men are marrying younger women that have not been married.

Hoovie
12-21-2007, 07:08 PM
Because some of the men are marrying younger women that have not been married.

OK I suppose there is a higher incidence of that.

Rhoni
12-21-2007, 07:10 PM
these men that remarry are they getting married to other men? Or why would it not effect men and women equally?:jolly

*As you have stated...women are busy getting re-trained/re-educated to join the workforce.
*Women usually have the children and don't have time to think about dating, nor the opportunity to do so because of the time and expense for sitters, ect.
*Women who are divorced are excluded, especially if they have any beauty at all because the married women hold tight to their husbands and fear that every single woman is trying to steal their husbands...such a falacy BTW


*The highest population of poverty level people in the United States are single parent families headed by women.

*Men remarry because they need someone to take care of them and can't go for extended period without sex. They sometimes make foolish mistakes and marry the first woman that comes along to satisfy that urge.

Whereas women: Have fewer opportunities for dating and remarriage since men are looking for younger women, and dumber women;) Sorry - couldn't resist:)

rgcraig
12-21-2007, 07:14 PM
I will clarify: Single women are excluded from group activites or going out to eat with other couples they previously associated with. I have heard married couples say they thought the single person would feel uncomfortable, but I think it is the married couple that feels uncomfortable.

Does that help?

I knew what you meant, but you needed to clarify.

And many times, you lose your married friends because they could have "taken sides."

Rhoni
12-21-2007, 07:21 PM
Oh we just had to go there didn't we!?

I grew up in a divorced home. I struggled with trusting God in my past. I am now a divorced woman, and I simply can not trust God. I am struggling with this like nothing I knew was possible. Love? You've got to be kidding me...love=hurt.

And gee thanks for the vote of confidence in raising kids. lol I know that's not what you meant, but punch in the gut again. I know what struggles my kids face and it makes me so sad. I wish I could make everything all better for them, but I can't.

Nahkoe,

As much as you'd like to protect your children from the effects of divorce - it is not possible. Unfortunately these things are transgenerational and get handed down from generation to generation. I thought I'd break the curse for my family and I fell right into the same traps. My children also think things will be different for them. I hope it is so but it will only be because they make very effort to nurture and preserve the marriage.

God did not cause the divorce and he is not the one who hurt you. You can trust him to be there with you through all the '........' and after it is buried. God wants the best for you and you need to remind yourself of that.

Blessings, Rhoni

Rhoni
12-21-2007, 07:23 PM
I knew what you meant, but you needed to clarify.

And many times, you lose your married friends because they could have "taken sides."

Thank-you Renda, and yes I agree...many times you gain or lose friends as friends think they have to choose sides. True.

Blessings, Rhoni

GodsBabyGirl
12-21-2007, 07:44 PM
Mrs. LPW, This is a good post. Some preventative things that need to happen in our churches:

Educating our children, teens on what a 'healthy' relationship is/looks like using scripture.
Educating Adults on scriptural roles for husbands, wives, & children.
Guidance in dating and boundaries.
Extensive pre-marital counseling.
after marriage - teaching and marriage enrichment activities and support groups.

Some things lacking in many of our assmeblies.


I agree with you totally on this, Sis.

I have to admit that was one of the reasons I left the Apostolic church. the harsh and somewhat untrue teachings on divorce and remarriage.

What is interesting is when the very folk who taught so harshly against (divorce) are now going thru it themselves.

Funny how that happens that way....

Divorce is a tragedy and I personally would never speak harshly or judge someone who has gone thru, having been thru it myself.

And I never let anyone's false beliefs, teachings and judgments make me feel like God doesn't love me.

Divorcees, I want to encourage you.

God DOES love you, even if church folks act a fool.

And I do believe that if it is your desire to want to be with someone, God will give you the desire of your heart. No matter who doesn't like it or teaches against it.

One thing I am grateful for is that no matter how much I have been hurt and rejected, that God would give me the capability and the desire to love again.

If God sends someone your way, don't let folk run them off.

You don't have to answer to folks. You do have to answer to God, though.

Much love to ya!
Sis Wenona

nahkoe
12-21-2007, 07:56 PM
Nahkoe,

As much as you'd like to protect your children from the effects of divorce - it is not possible. Unfortunately these things are transgenerational and get handed down from generation to generation. I thought I'd break the curse for my family and I fell right into the same traps. My children also think things will be different for them. I hope it is so but it will only be because they make very effort to nurture and preserve the marriage.

God did not cause the divorce and he is not the one who hurt you. You can trust him to be there with you through all the '........' and after it is buried. God wants the best for you and you need to remind yourself of that.

Blessings, Rhoni

I know I can't protect them. :( I know they'll likely walk in the same place I am right now. Oh I hope they don't, but I did everything I could to avoid it, yet here I am.

I know He didn't. I'm working on that. So is He.

berkeley
12-21-2007, 08:07 PM
As a child of multiple divorces, I will say it does affect many children in a very negative way. My brother never recovered from the hurt he suffered as a result of the divorce. My sister was much younger and a broken home is all she has known, she is not messed up like my brother is. Me, well, I'm a different case altogether.

Rhoni
12-21-2007, 08:10 PM
I agree with you totally on this, Sis.

I have to admit that was one of the reasons I left the Apostolic church. the harsh and somewhat untrue teachings on divorce and remarriage.

What is interesting is when the very folk who taught so harshly against (divorce) are now going thru it themselves.

Funny how that happens that way....

Divorce is a tragedy and I personally would never speak harshly or judge someone who has gone thru, having been thru it myself.

And I never let anyone's false beliefs, teachings and judgments make me feel like God doesn't love me.

Divorcees, I want to encourage you.

God DOES love you, even if church folks act a fool.

And I do believe that if it is your desire to want to be with someone, God will give you the desire of your heart. No matter who doesn't like it or teaches against it.

One thing I am grateful for is that no matter how much I have been hurt and rejected, that God would give me the capability and the desire to love again.

If God sends someone your way, don't let folk run them off.

You don't have to answer to folks. You do have to answer to God, though.

Much love to ya!
Sis Wenona


Sis. Wenona,

Good to hear from you and thank-you for blessing Divorcees.:santathumb I am so thankful that you have kept your heart soft enough to love again. This is very difficult to do.

I went for about 5 years before I trusted someone enough to love again and it fell through...but I am glad I learned something about myself...I can love again.

One thing I know is that love lasts over time. If a man can't wait for me until I am ready then he is not worthy of me...and vica versa. I wish I could be as impulsive as some people but it doesn't work for me. I test men and try men to see how much they love me.

I can't just 'get married' or even promise myself to someone without getting to know them, going through pre-marital counseling, meet their family, and then praying , fasting, and thinking about it for an extended period of time.

The one thing I do know about myself...when I fall in love...it is completely and it takes me quite a while to get over it. Took me 5 years the first time, 7 the second, and it has been 3 years since the last time I loved someone. It will probably be that much longer if ever again. It isn't that I don't want to love but I hate to feel that vulnerable again...walls are up...and it is a good thing for me right now.

the last man who told me he was interested in me wanted to meet me several months ago...I asked him to wait for approx 3 months. Said if we were still communicating after three months then we would meet. We set a date to meet and not only did it not happen but he got married:jolly LOL. It is a good thing I didn't allow him to come and meet me. I don't want a man who could marry anyone...I want a man who could only marry one in a million and I am that one.:santathumb

Anyway, thank-you for your comments...they are good and encouraging.

Blessings, Rhoni

lisafitzh2o
12-21-2007, 08:13 PM
Okay, this might be slightly off topic, but in noticing the rise of the divorce rate in church, I've wondered WHY this is happening. (Okay, besides the devil working overtime and stuff like that.)

I remember being a teenager in the church and feeling tremendous pressure to hurry up and get married. It was everywhere....youth rallys, camps, Youth Congress, etc. It was like you were supposed to "snatch a man" the minute you got your diploma (IF you bothered graduating). But my "secular" friends weren't going through this. Do we Apostolics put pressure on our kids to forego an education and career to pursue marriage and children? I remember turning 20 and feeling like such the old maid. As a matter of fact, I was pretty much the only one in my youth group who went on to college. But I had parents who constantly reminded me to get an education, a career, travel, and find out who I was before settling down.

A psychologist once said, "A person is going to go through every stage of life at some point...be it at the time they should or at another time". He said these kids who marry young never got to experience being a teenager, so they end up in their 30's wanting out of the marriage to go have fun.

So, basically, in my ramblings I guess I'm wondering how many of our church divorces are stemming from immaturity.

What do you all think? Am I totally off base?

Ronzo
12-21-2007, 08:17 PM
A psychologist once said, "A person is going to go through every stage of life at some point...be it at the time they should or at another time". He said these kids who marry young never got to experience being a teenager, so they end up in their 30's wanting out of the marriage to go have fun.

So, basically, in my ramblings I guess I'm wondering how many of our church divorces are stemming from immaturity.

What do you all think? Am I totally off base?


I can speak from my own experience, that this is EXACTLY what happened with my wife and I...

She was never able to 'be a kid' and 'have fun' like most kids end up doing in their early 20's... it appealed to her, so she went for it.

Ronzo
12-21-2007, 08:18 PM
As a child of multiple divorces, I will say it does affect many children in a very negative way. My brother never recovered from the hurt he suffered as a result of the divorce. My sister was much younger and a broken home is all she has known, she is not messed up like my brother is. Me, well, I'm a different case altogether.
I thank God we didn't have kids...

Rhoni
12-21-2007, 08:26 PM
Okay, this might be slightly off topic, but in noticing the rise of the divorce rate in church, I've wondered WHY this is happening. (Okay, besides the devil working overtime and stuff like that.)

I remember being a teenager in the church and feeling tremendous pressure to hurry up and get married. It was everywhere....youth rallys, camps, Youth Congress, etc. It was like you were supposed to "snatch a man" the minute you got your diploma (IF you bothered graduating). But my "secular" friends weren't going through this. Do we Apostolics put pressure on our kids to forego an education and career to pursue marriage and children? I remember turning 20 and feeling like such the old maid. As a matter of fact, I was pretty much the only one in my youth group who went on to college. But I had parents who constantly reminded me to get an education, a career, travel, and find out who I was before settling down.

A psychologist once said, "A person is going to go through every stage of life at some point...be it at the time they should or at another time". He said these kids who marry young never got to experience being a teenager, so they end up in their 30's wanting out of the marriage to go have fun.

So, basically, in my ramblings I guess I'm wondering how many of our church divorces are stemming from immaturity.

What do you all think? Am I totally off base?

Lisa,

Good post! :santathumb And you are not so wrong either. Growing up we got labeled as "Old Maid" if we weren't married out of high school and then if one made it through Bible College without marrying - it was hopeless.

Developmentally, if one marries before college or before one has come into their own, know who they are, what they want out of life, then they marry and when they do find out...they realize that this marriage isn't what they want or need at all.

I believe the stages of development we can go in and out of through the years, but I agree with the fact that our Apostolic girls grow up much too fast and want to marry way before they are truly ready for it. One reason, they look older, second reason is that the Apostolic culture promotes marriage before it promotes education and independence.

Of course this is only one reason for the high rate of divorce within our ranks, others are:
* lack of teaching on marital responsibilities, healthy families/relationships,
* too many enmeshed leadership trying to match-make couples as they see fit instead of letting God do the matchmaking. For instance, The VP of our Bible College was notorious for trying to break couples up he didn't want to be together and then trying to couple off those he thought would be a good match...all in the guize of "God's Will". He hurt many couples and messed up their lives forever.
*lack of pre-marital counseling [most just ask you if you think it is God's will and what date do you want to get married] Pre-marital counseling covers: communication, finances, conflict resolution, family of origin issues, child rearing, & sexuality.

Blessings, Rhoni

GodsBabyGirl
12-21-2007, 08:32 PM
Okay, this might be slightly off topic, but in noticing the rise of the divorce rate in church, I've wondered WHY this is happening. (Okay, besides the devil working overtime and stuff like that.)

I remember being a teenager in the church and feeling tremendous pressure to hurry up and get married. It was everywhere....youth rallys, camps, Youth Congress, etc. It was like you were supposed to "snatch a man" the minute you got your diploma (IF you bothered graduating). But my "secular" friends weren't going through this. Do we Apostolics put pressure on our kids to forego an education and career to pursue marriage and children? I remember turning 20 and feeling like such the old maid. As a matter of fact, I was pretty much the only one in my youth group who went on to college. But I had parents who constantly reminded me to get an education, a career, travel, and find out who I was before settling down.

A psychologist once said, "A person is going to go through every stage of life at some point...be it at the time they should or at another time". He said these kids who marry young never got to experience being a teenager, so they end up in their 30's wanting out of the marriage to go have fun.

So, basically, in my ramblings I guess I'm wondering how many of our church divorces are stemming from immaturity.

What do you all think? Am I totally off base?

I don't think at all.

I don't think marraige something to be rushed into. I'm wit Rhoni...if a guy is putting pressure on me, then he ain't worthy of me.

I tell my daughter all the time; get an education pursue a career, have fun. Don't rush into a relationship/marriage.

I am going thru this phase now where I want to do things I have never done before. Someone invited me to go to Africa with them and I was game.

But b/c I couldn't find anyone to watch the kids, I had to opt for next time.

Missions trip.

I am undergoing a career change and my outlook on life is different. I don't let others define who I am and what I like. Or what I do.

I was so insecure as a young woman. I like being middle aged. I am more confident, know what I want (and don't want!)

So a guy can't step to me like he did 20 yrs ago.

I would encourage any young person to develop yourself. Accomplish goals and pursue dreams. Live and enjoy single life to the fullest.

Because you'll never have this opportunity to do these things again.

Love is eternal. We mistakenly believe that there is only one person for us and once that person is gone, there goes our opportunity to be loved.

I say NO!

There are many whom we can make a decision to love and be compatible or have 'chemistry' with. That has been my experience.

Love will always present an opportunity to crop up into your life as a rose in bloom. It pops up in seasons.

Sometimes it is with one person forever. This is where you hear of the folks married for 65 years. My hats off to them!:santathumb

Sometimes love pops us with different folks. Different seasons.

Let's face it, folks. In this imperfect world we live in, marriages fail. It is horrendous and it hurts.

But I be a canine in a catfield if I let one failure keep me from trying at love again!

LOVE IS ETERNAL!

I believe in love.

To the young folks, it is wisest though to get yourself together first before seeking marriage.

Love will always be there waiting for you, boo. Get some money in the bank. Get your career going. Get some investments going. Get involved in ministry.

Because if you don't, all those things-or the lack of them, can cause a GREAT strain on marital relations.

Stressing about money, running from the call of God, not sure what to do when you retire...these are some things that can cause great strain on marriages

Empower and enable yourselves to be the best marriage partner you can be, in the best time.

When there is money in the bank, there is more time to focus on love. Kids can go to best schools, you can live in decent neighborhoods, pay the bills take vacations, etc....

When you are fulfilled in a career or ministry, you won't expect your marriage partner to fulfill all of you. Reserve that portion of who you are and place it into a part of your life that is just YOU.

I am speaking from experience.

Love ya

berkeley
12-21-2007, 08:37 PM
I thank God we didn't have kids...

It would have made things more difficult.

Many times, the children think they are to blame.

GodsBabyGirl
12-21-2007, 08:55 PM
I thank God we didn't have kids...

I have three children. I went thru the thing of feeling guilty for them. I had always wanted to shelter my kids from the hurts of this world. I wanted them to be in a perfect little home, with a perfect mom and dad, in a perfect church and school....

And then reality struck...

It hurt. Because I didn't want my kids to go thru what I did.

Then I realized that I was not at all that bad of a person, in spite of all I had been thru and witnessed.

Did it hurt? Heck yeah!

It is what has contributed to the anointing on my life.

At some point after I forgave myself for not being perfect and trying to present a perfect world before my babies, I decided I would use these many opportunities seemingly 'failure' on my part to show my children the power and wonder of the grace of God.

The grace of God that would take care of a single mom with three kids who went from pillar to post, then lost it all in Katrina, found love and lost it again and now yet again in a state of recovery....

And I can tell you and assure you. My kids are learning EARLY some very important life lessons.

Have they been hurt? Yes. Disappointed? Yes. Confused? You bet.

But in the midst of it all, they have seen God move on our behalf, too! They have witnessed God move in ways that He probably wouldn't have if I hadn't been thru divorce.....twice from their father....and now again from William...

I and the kids harbor no ill will towards them. We realize folks are imperfect. They mean well, but they are mere flesh.

They are learning to let God be their daddy. Their DADDY, excuse me!

With no husband/father, we are living in a great home, all our needs met, Christmas with all the trimmings and peace.....

Who is responsible for that?

Not man, God!

Now, I won't buck if, or when, someone else comes along. I am for love and am ready.

God risked His love and life for me. Who am I to not risk it?

I am learning it is good when our kids see us go through. Because when we go out on the other side, they will know better than anyone else pointing their hairy little finger that GOD HAS BEEN WITH US!!!!

Ya Heard???

Love Sis Wenona

Mrs. LPW
12-21-2007, 08:59 PM
Mrs. LPW, This is a good post. Some preventative things that need to happen in our churches:

Educating our children, teens on what a 'healthy' relationship is/looks like using scripture.
Educating Adults on scriptural roles for husbands, wives, & children.
Guidance in dating and boundaries.
Extensive pre-marital counseling.
after marriage - teaching and marriage enrichment activities and support groups.

Some things lacking in many of our assmeblies.

Agreed 110%

rgcraig
12-21-2007, 09:03 PM
Okay, this might be slightly off topic, but in noticing the rise of the divorce rate in church, I've wondered WHY this is happening. (Okay, besides the devil working overtime and stuff like that.)

I remember being a teenager in the church and feeling tremendous pressure to hurry up and get married. It was everywhere....youth rallys, camps, Youth Congress, etc. It was like you were supposed to "snatch a man" the minute you got your diploma (IF you bothered graduating). But my "secular" friends weren't going through this. Do we Apostolics put pressure on our kids to forego an education and career to pursue marriage and children? I remember turning 20 and feeling like such the old maid. As a matter of fact, I was pretty much the only one in my youth group who went on to college. But I had parents who constantly reminded me to get an education, a career, travel, and find out who I was before settling down.

A psychologist once said, "A person is going to go through every stage of life at some point...be it at the time they should or at another time". He said these kids who marry young never got to experience being a teenager, so they end up in their 30's wanting out of the marriage to go have fun.

So, basically, in my ramblings I guess I'm wondering how many of our church divorces are stemming from immaturity.

What do you all think? Am I totally off base?Not off base at all - I've been with others that have discussed this very thing. Also, the choices for our mates were slim because they had to be UPC, so how many married because they were truly in love or just because it was the right thing to do with whoever was in their church.

I know several marriages that are struggling now because of this very reason. It's like they married a good friend because they both were in church and they were 20.

Also, how much pre-marital counseling is offered to these couples to let them know what kind of things they'd be facing in marriage, so these folks learned as they fought their way through the first few years of marriage.

berkeley
12-21-2007, 09:06 PM
I'm still waiting for a pastor of a laaarge church to beg me to marry his daughter... and give me the paid position as assistant pastor..





I think I'm kidding.

Mrs. LPW
12-21-2007, 09:45 PM
There are so many different things that affect marriages today. And what may destroy one marriage may have no effect on another marriage at all.
For instance... I was young when I married and I didn't know my husband long beforehand... our backgrounds were so different... he came from a broken home, I from a whole one... he came from abuse, I never knew anything but love and care. So needless to say, with the big hour of counselling we recieved by the pastor that married us... we had issues right from the start of our "I do"s.

I know another couple who did the same, knew each other a short time.. married quick and in all honesty they haven't had any serious troubles at all over the years. So everyone and every marriage is different.

But one thing is true... there just isn't enough counsel, there isn't enough preparation, there isn't enough support once married.

If you take the tendency for Apostolic young people to marry young, couple it with the lack of support and counsel in most of our churches, add the fact that we are bombarded by the immoral and humanistic ideals every day at work, school, and in the media... it's a sure fire recipe for marital breakdown.

I've said it in a previous post.. but I'll just state it again for the record... There are circumstances. Abuses etc... That warrant the abused party to leave...

But what I'm seeing (at least in my area and in my life's travels and experiences) is the ideals of the world (ie you're not happy, you'd be happier single or happier with someone else) creeping into the mainstream church world. This is always scary to me. Does anyone else understand what I'm trying to say? I'm not very good at wording things sometimes... so I read and re-read my posts... I can't seem to completely express what I'm saying and I always fear offending someone who's been through a divorce.

I guess what I'm saying is... take the music industry for example.. the Christian music industry. We have two of the Martin's family... Amy Grant... Sandy Patti (Sandi Patty... never could remember how she spells it)
It just seems like it's more and more accepted to end your marriage and start a new one. And sometimes there is no abuse involved... sometimes it's just rocky... you don't get along "irreconcilable differences"

So where do we, as a church, say... wait... we've got to stop this. We've got to heal these marriages... we've got to not take "divorce" for an answer?

At the extreme risk of someone thinking I'm saying they didn't put enough effort into saving their marriage I am saying this. I'm actually really nervous about hitting the submit reply button.. I don't want ANYONE to feel like I'm inferring they didn't do enough to save their marriages.

I think the "church" is letting down it's saints in this department... and having gone through some things myself I'm wondering where the answers lie.
And I'm wondering how many marriages have to fall apart for our minsters to realize we really need more marital support in this day and age.

This is long... forgive me. The topic of marriage and God's plan and healing of marriages is close to my heart.

bishoph
12-21-2007, 10:17 PM
***WARNING:***

Hide this Thread from Epley,Old Path, Bishop and Kansas Preacher!!

Not sure if I'm the Bishop Thad is referring to........I hope not. Divorce is an ugly (no matter how amicable) and extremely hurtful thing for everyone concerned. The children, the couple, all of the extended family, the church, the pastor and the list goes on and on. Many, IMO, Apostolic pastors have very little understanding on how to counsel marriages/families when things are going relatively well, let alone when things go bad. And may I add that often times the advice they do give is wrong.

I may get stoned for my next statements, however, IMO, it is not the will of God for anyone to remain in a relationship where abuse (whether physical, emotional, spiritual, or sexual) is happening without proper intervention and actions being taken. This does not mean that every case should end in divorce; if the right counsel was given and the right things done many divorces could be avoided. However, the same God who defines love, is the same God who hates abuse! In fact if you study out the root definition of the word, you will find that abuse is one of the facets of fornication, and the last time I checked, the Word lists fornication as one of the grounds for divorce.

The healing and future spiritual/relational success of those effected by divorce will greatly depend on the support system in which they are able to find themselves. As I have read through this thread, I realize how much some of you are hurting, and you may not even recognize it yourself, because you have had to pick up the pieces and keep on going just to survive. I am moved by your hurt and I will be praying for you.

Please know that you are important, and that you have great worth. You may carry some wounds, that still hurt when they are touched or prodded, but you are not damaged goods. Damaged goods are reduced in value and discounted, or discarded, but God does not see you that way, and neither will his true children. Quit believing what your ex said you were never going to be, or what they proclaimed you would always be. God has spoken good things about you, and to you that are yet to come. You serve a God who is able to make your latter days to be greater than your your darkest past.

Your Servant in Christ

J-Roc
12-21-2007, 10:17 PM
You are not an extrovert??


No, he is not an extrovert. Who woulda thunk, huh?

J-Roc
12-21-2007, 10:24 PM
For you, O God, tested us;
you refined us like silver.
You brought us into prison
and laid burdens on our backs.
You let men ride over our heads;
we went through fire and water,
but you brought us to a place of abundance.
(Psalm 66:10-12)

pelathais
12-21-2007, 10:30 PM
I've heard that statistic, but I strongly doubt it that its accurate, at least as far as Acts 2:38 saints are concerned. That statistic seems to be based on all people who identify themselves as "Christians", or active churchgoers, not Apostolic saints per se.

So since all the polls/surveys on this are mainly dealing with Baptists, Evangelicals, Methodists, etc., that will definitely skew the numbers, but we in the Apostolic church cant look at the published "divorce rate among Christians" as really being accurate for the Apostolic church. As far as I know,theres never been a true poll or survey of the divorce rate among Apostolics. But I'd say the rate is very low. If I had to take a best guess, I'd say probably in the 5-8% range or so, just from what I've observed over the years. (I'm sure some of the Apostolic pastors here can give us a more accurate estimate.)
I followed the trends for many years. I observed that about half the couples in an Apostolic church had either already been divorced or did divorce over a ten year time period.

I did not count the "pre-conversion" divorces either. Just the saints. Some remarried and redivorced, though that was very rare. And then looking overall at people's lives, I noticed that there was a huge number of people who were married when they converted, but the conversion coincided with a divorce. Conversion of one of the partners must put a lot of strain on a marriage. Or it could be that a disintegrating marriage can lead a person to a religious conversion.

SDG
12-21-2007, 10:31 PM
Not sure if I'm the Bishop Thad is referring to........I hope not. Divorce is an ugly (no matter how amicable) and extremely hurtful thing for everyone concerned. The children, the couple, all of the extended family, the church, the pastor and the list goes on and on. Many, IMO, Apostolic pastors have very little understanding on how to counsel marriages/families when things are going relatively well, let alone when things go bad. And may I add that often times the advice they do give is wrong.

I may get stoned for my next statements, however, IMO, it is not the will of God for anyone to remain in a relationship where abuse (whether physical, emotional, spiritual, or sexual) is happening without proper intervention and actions being taken. This does not mean that every case should end in divorce; if the right counsel was given and the right things done many divorces could be avoided. However, the same God who defines love, is the same God who hates abuse! In fact if you study out the root definition of the word, you will find that abuse is one of the facets of fornication, and the last time I checked, the Word lists fornication as one of the grounds for divorce.

The healing and future spiritual/relational success of those effected by divorce will greatly depend on the support system in which they are able to find themselves. As I have read through this thread, I realize how much some of you are hurting, and you may not even recognize it yourself, because you have had to pick up the pieces and keep on going just to survive. I am moved by your hurt and I will be praying for you.

Please know that you are important, and that you have great worth. You may carry some wounds, that still hurt when they are touched or prodded, but you are not damaged goods. Damaged goods are reduced in value and discounted, or discarded, but God does not see you that way, and neither will his true children. Quit believing what your ex said you were never going to be, or what they proclaimed you would always be. God has spoken good things about you, and to you that are yet to come. You serve a God who is able to make your latter days to be greater than your your darkest past.

Your Servant in Christ

I believe Thad was referring to Bishop1. However, I may be wrong.

Nonetheless thank you for a compassionate Christ-like post.

I don't think you can be stoned for your statements ... they are based in the Word and the love of our Lord.

Ronzo
12-21-2007, 10:32 PM
I believe Thad was referring to Bishop1. However, I may be wrong.

Nonetheless thank you for a compassionate Christ-like post.

I don't think you can be stoned for your statements ... they are based in the Word and the love of our Lord.


All the more reason for him to be stoned...

nahkoe
12-21-2007, 10:33 PM
I believe Thad was referring to Bishop1. However, I may be wrong.

Nonetheless thank you for a compassionate Christ-like post.

I don't think you can be stoned for your statements ... they are based in the Word and the love of our Lord.

Agreed.

J-Roc
12-21-2007, 11:17 PM
All the more reason for him to be stoned...

Ain't that the truth.

BoredOutOfMyMind
12-22-2007, 12:45 AM
I'm still waiting for a pastor of a laaarge church to beg me to marry his daughter... and give me the paid position as assistant pastor..





I think I'm kidding.


I think you better bank plenty of money and look for a mail order bride!

:killinme

BoredOutOfMyMind
12-22-2007, 12:49 AM
Wow! Some deep wounds ripped wide open in this thread.

Excellent discussion.

Randy's sticky is true- not every Christmas is Merry.

Father, be the balm in Gilead to help us heal and to help us reach to others around us who are bruised, bleeding, and battered. In Jesus Name. Amen.

LadyChocolate
12-22-2007, 01:21 AM
I think it comes from fear that the prevalence of divorce in the world will infiltrate the church. I know in mainstream Christianity it's become much more accepted and so instead of being kind, longsuffering, gentle with the hurting or even the sinning... Church folks get freaked out and do a lot more damage.

There has to be balance... we have to stand for marriage because there is a very real enemy who attacks our marriages and homes, as well as our own humanity that causes marital strife... but we also have to be filled with love toward those who are facing this, and understanding.

It's a delicate balance.

Yes! We do have to stand for marriage... One thing my husband told me before we ever were married was that we were going to have to "talk" and not "yell and scream". I came from a home where my mother and father NEVER yelled at eachother... No lost tempers at all. But it wasn't perfect. When tension rose, and there should have been an argument, there was silence. The silent treatment was terrible. My father would talk to my brother and I but ignore my mother. That was awful! My mother, when hurt, would go away to her room quietly... Unfortunately, I also learned how to "not communicate" when things are rough.

My husband grew up in a very different home. Being brought up by an Italian and a very strong, opinionated mother, there were lots of yelling, fights, throwing of dishes, etc... He was determined not to have that kind of marriage. So here we are and to this day, we have never had a fight! Sure we've had disagreements, but he's never raised his voice at me! (he's incredible) He has also helped me to talk when I wanted to go off and pout...have a pity party...

My children have never seen us fight or scream at eachother. They don't know what it's like to have mama and daddy fight. We are teaching them how to love and respect the one you love. It is constant work on both sides. Trust me, there have been times I just wanted to go off on him, and many more times he wanted to bite my head off.... but we both think before we speak and if whatever we want to say would hurt the other, we refrain. I try not to say anything that I will be apologizing for!

It takes two! baby! it takes two!

Rhoni
12-22-2007, 07:34 AM
There are so many different things that affect marriages today. And what may destroy one marriage may have no effect on another marriage at all.
For instance... I was young when I married and I didn't know my husband long beforehand... our backgrounds were so different... he came from a broken home, I from a whole one... he came from abuse, I never knew anything but love and care. So needless to say, with the big hour of counselling we recieved by the pastor that married us... we had issues right from the start of our "I do"s.

Mrs. LPW, Please do not apologize for speaking your heart. These are very good issues you bring out.

The "1" hour of counsel was not counsel at all...a point I have been making for years now.
Family of origin issues bring up problems with a married couple and their expectations right from the start - so very true!
Marrying young leaves you little experience to draw from
And what affects the success or downfall of one marriage may be the strength of another - so true!
I know another couple who did the same, knew each other a short time.. married quick and in all honesty they haven't had any serious troubles at all over the years. So everyone and every marriage is different.

But one thing is true... there just isn't enough counsel, there isn't enough preparation, there isn't enough support once married.

This is so true of many marriages. They marry young and have no Godly counsel or support. Many times what appears to be the problem from a church looking in on the couple from the outside is really not the problem at all. For church leadership to side with one over the other without looking at the whole picture and externalizing the problem only alienates one and they feel hopeless and not heard or understood. This is why it is very important that the couple have a safe place/unbiased counsel that is bound by ethics of confidentiality and HIPPA laws.

If you take the tendency for Apostolic young people to marry young, couple it with the lack of support and counsel in most of our churches, add the fact that we are bombarded by the immoral and humanistic ideals every day at work, school, and in the media... it's a sure fire recipe for marital breakdown.

This is true. In church it is easy to want to hide problems to not bring reproach upon the church [what we have been taught], but in putting this guilt on the victim it propagates continues abuse in some situations.



What happens is one of the spouses put up with, put up with - until their mid-30's when they realize they have a voice, have choices, and don't have to stay in these ungodly situations. This is why you see may church divorces in the mid to late 30's.

I've said it in a previous post.. but I'll just state it again for the record... There are circumstances. Abuses etc... That warrant the abused party to leave...

ABSOLUTELY!

But what I'm seeing (at least in my area and in my life's travels and experiences) is the ideals of the world (ie you're not happy, you'd be happier single or happier with someone else) creeping into the mainstream church world. This is always scary to me. Does anyone else understand what I'm trying to say? I'm not very good at wording things sometimes... so I read and re-read my posts... I can't seem to completely express what I'm saying and I always fear offending someone who's been through a divorce.

The truth is the truth whether it offends or not. The world does have an influence on the church and our world/USA is very narcissitic and they think every individual has the 'right' to be happy regardless of the others it hurts. This is a lie fromt he pit.

Many times our not being 'happy' is not about another person making us unhappy as much as it is about our hearts, desires, and goals not being focused on God and his plan for our life

I guess what I'm saying is... take the music industry for example.. the Christian music industry. We have two of the Martin's family... Amy Grant... Sandy Patti (Sandi Patty... never could remember how she spells it)
It just seems like it's more and more accepted to end your marriage and start a new one. And sometimes there is no abuse involved... sometimes it's just rocky... you don't get along "irreconcilable differences"

So where do we, as a church, say... wait... we've got to stop this. We've got to heal these marriages... we've got to not take "divorce" for an answer?

At the extreme risk of someone thinking I'm saying they didn't put enough effort into saving their marriage I am saying this. I'm actually really nervous about hitting the submit reply button.. I don't want ANYONE to feel like I'm inferring they didn't do enough to save their marriages.

I think the "church" is letting down it's saints in this department... and having gone through some things myself I'm wondering where the answers lie.
And I'm wondering how many marriages have to fall apart for our minsters to realize we really need more marital support in this day and age.

This is long... forgive me. The topic of marriage and God's plan and healing of marriages is close to my heart.[/quote]

Mrs. LPW,

You have indeed well said everything here! Excellent post! We need to example God's plan for marriages and structure our church Bible Lessons and classrooms for all of this. We need marriage enrichment seminars that are easily affordable if not free to church membership. We need marriage counseling, pre-marital counseling, and support groups for sinlges, single parent families, young married couples, older couples mentoring younger couples, child rearing classes, individual counsleing, ect.

You have hit many major issues and did and excellent job of discussing them.

Blessings, Rhoni

Mrs. LPW
12-22-2007, 09:49 AM
...now if only there was something we could do to shake the ministry up on this one. Our district hasn't had a good marriage retreat in years... first they got rid of them altogether, and the last few were more expensive to go to than previous years.

You said something Rhoni, that struck a chord with me. You mentioned how there is the worry that if a separation or divorce would occur it would bring reproach on the church.

One (just one) of the big factors for us sticking it out was the fact that my mother's entire family are Anglican, and they've never known this wonderful Holy Ghost experience... and not one of her sisters and brother's marriages have broken up. At some of our lowest points it was in my mind that I wanted to keep the best witness possible for their sake...

Other factors were of course, I loved my dysfunctional hubby in spite of everything and I didn't want to displease the Lord either.

We have a young couple friend... married just a short time compared to us... but we know they argue alot... and it hurts us to hear them. It brings back a PILE of memories! I don't think they've gotten as bad as we had, but if they don't learn to work through these differences now, in five years they may have drifted too far apart. Our movement is going to suffer greatly if they don't figure out how to minister to the married. (as well as the single/never married and the divorced)

GodsBabyGirl
12-22-2007, 10:04 AM
...now if only there was something we could do to shake the ministry up on this one. Our district hasn't had a good marriage retreat in years... first they got rid of them altogether, and the last few were more expensive to go to than previous years.

You said something Rhoni, that struck a chord with me. You mentioned how there is the worry that if a separation or divorce would occur it would bring reproach on the church.

One (just one) of the big factors for us sticking it out was the fact that my mother's entire family are Anglican, and they've never known this wonderful Holy Ghost experience... and not one of her sisters and brother's marriages have broken up. At some of our lowest points it was in my mind that I wanted to keep the best witness possible for their sake...

Other factors were of course, I loved my dysfunctional hubby in spite of everything and I didn't want to displease the Lord either.

We have a young couple friend... married just a short time compared to us... but we know they argue alot... and it hurts us to hear them. It brings back a PILE of memories! I don't think they've gotten as bad as we had, but if they don't learn to work through these differences now, in five years they may have drifted too far apart. Our movement is going to suffer greatly if they don't figure out how to minister to the married. (as well as the single/never married and the divorced)

The church does not know how to effectively minister to marrieds, singles and divorced b/c we have learned to not deal with the issues that are very real to us today.

We have infidelity, AIDS, the down low, finances, conflict resolution, domestic violence just to name a few.

We need to married folks who been together for a minute to give seminars and counsel to young marrieds on how to stick it out. We need folk who have struggled with their sexuality-and came out VICTORIOUS on the other side of it and are happily married to minister to the guys on the down low and women struggling with their sexuality.

We need to hold financial seminars just for married folks.

We need teach folks how to fight fair and not take it to a physical level.

And what about AIDS/HIV???? We are dealing in a time when some folks are gonna come in positive or dyng of AIDS. Do we marry them or forbid it?

Can we effectively inform the couples of what is going to happen when you marry an HIV positive partner?

And it is my belief that there is absolutely not enough pre marital counseling.

I think one year of pre marital counseling would not be a bad idea.

Folks have issues, let's be real. And in three to four sessions, they can hide those issues if it means they can get down the aisle in a hurry.

But time has a way of revealing all things. Even those things folks don't want to come surfacing to the top.

Take your time. Make an informed decision.

That's my motto...

Sis Wenona

Mrs. LPW
12-22-2007, 10:06 AM
The church does not know how to effectively minister to marrieds, singles and divorced b/c we have learned to not deal with the issues that are very real to us today.

Take your time. Make an informed decision.

That's my motto...

Sis Wenona

So true, and excellent motto.

rgcraig
12-22-2007, 10:18 AM
I appreciate all that you've said here Mrs. LPW!

Rhoni
12-22-2007, 10:28 AM
...now if only there was something we could do to shake the ministry up on this one. Our district hasn't had a good marriage retreat in years... first they got rid of them altogether, and the last few were more expensive to go to than previous years.

You said something Rhoni, that struck a chord with me. You mentioned how there is the worry that if a separation or divorce would occur it would bring reproach on the church.

One (just one) of the big factors for us sticking it out was the fact that my mother's entire family are Anglican, and they've never known this wonderful Holy Ghost experience... and not one of her sisters and brother's marriages have broken up. At some of our lowest points it was in my mind that I wanted to keep the best witness possible for their sake...

Other factors were of course, I loved my dysfunctional hubby in spite of everything and I didn't want to displease the Lord either.

We have a young couple friend... married just a short time compared to us... but we know they argue alot... and it hurts us to hear them. It brings back a PILE of memories! I don't think they've gotten as bad as we had, but if they don't learn to work through these differences now, in five years they may have drifted too far apart. Our movement is going to suffer greatly if they don't figure out how to minister to the married. (as well as the single/never married and the divorced)

Mrs LPW,

I echo Renda.. I appreciate all that you've said here Mrs. LPW!


Blessings, Rhoni

Trouvere
12-22-2007, 12:56 PM
this thread has been such a good discussion.I was in a conversation with a pastor friend yesterday and the topic was that a certain minister was not allowed all the privilages all the other ministers in a certain church had because he had been divorced and remarried even though it was not his fault.This minister was given alot of responsibilities in the church and promised things but when another minister came to help in this work who had never been divorced he was chosen to take over the higher position.The first brother who had been divorced though it was not his fault was punished by
being pushed aside due to having a divorce in his past..I thought this was so harsh.

rgcraig
12-22-2007, 01:00 PM
this thread has been such a good discussion.I was in a conversation with a pastor friend yesterday and the topic was that a certain minister was not allowed all the privilages all the other ministers in a certain church had because he had been divorced and remarried even though it was not his fault.This minister was given alot of responsibilities in the church and promised things but when another minister came to help in this work who had never been divorced he was chosen to take over the higher position.The first brother who had been divorced though it was not his fault was punished by
being pushed aside due to having a divorce in his past..I thought this was so harsh.
It was.

Trouvere
12-22-2007, 01:15 PM
The thing about it is that this attitude is in alot of assemblies and not only apostolic.When I was catholic the most precious thing to us was to be able to
partake in communion service.Well if you are divorced then communion is forbidden.I have a dear cousin who loves God and love the catholic church.She did not marry until in her early thirties.The man she married is someone she went to high school with.He is awesome and the cities fire chief.We went to a funeral for one of our mutual relatives and communion was partaken of.I looked back and noticed the tears in her eyes as she sat there and everyone else went up for communion.It was disheartening to say the least.Here is someone who is probably the kindest individual I know and doesn't have to work at it like I do.It just comes natural to her and she is sitting there suffering because of a man made rule.God would never forbid her to come to Him.

berkeley
12-22-2007, 01:16 PM
Sis Wenona,

Not to change the topic, but I heard that the 'down low' is very common in the black community, and the men justify it because they are still with their wives or girlfriends.
Why do you think they would find it an acceptable practice, and yet not label themselves as gay or bisexual?

-berk

Ronzo
12-22-2007, 01:21 PM
I'd like to say Thank you to my friend who reached out to me after reading a few of my last posts on this thread. Thanks for the encouragement.

Your words went deep and they helped me to see things a little differently.

I appreciate it.

Coonskinner
12-22-2007, 01:46 PM
Just know that I'm pretty sick of this type of ignorance in the church... but I'll refrain from further comment on these two situations because more than likely, I'll say something really ugly...

I am just now looking at this thread, but I want to echo my disdain for that kind of ignorance.

GodsBabyGirl
12-22-2007, 02:17 PM
Sis Wenona,

Not to change the topic, but I heard that the 'down low' is very common in the black community, and the men justify it because they are still with their wives or girlfriends.
Why do you think they would find it an acceptable practice, and yet not label themselves as gay or bisexual?

-berk

In my opinion, it is all about coverup and being in denial. Most black men are not in touch with their feelings.

For a man to be married, or appear to be so, to the world or church, to a woman but he is having relations with another man...

That man doesn't want to come to terms with what he is dealing with. I hate to make this a black or white issue, but black men I feel are masters of being in denial about a lot of things.

If a black boy grows up having an attraction to other boys, he'll be called names and beat up. So in order to avoid this, he puts on this show for his boys.

But the attraction is still there...and sooner or later the opportunity to 'explore' will present itself.

He enjoys it a little too much and this disturbs him. So he gotta put on more of a front. In the black community, gays still get beat up. So when these boys 'grow up,' they think if they put up the front, don't admit to the attraction/perversion, and try to hide or cover it up, then it would go away.

Especially if they marry what they term a 'freak' or a very attractive, sexy lady. They think she can turn him around, if you know what I mean.

But deliverance doesn't come from being with a freak....

Deliverance first comes when you are ready to deal and tell the truth. Not when you cover up sin.

And they think it is okay to cover up and live a lie because it repulses and excites them all at the same time. And they know that in some circles they will get jacked/beat up. Not to mention some women I know will physically hurt if someone went down low on them.

Mix all that up with church leadership and you got yourself a hot mess!

And all the more reason for a down low brother to remain just that....down low.....

It is a sad state to be in if you ask me.

I thank God for deliverance!

Also...because so many of our men are incarcerated. Men raping men is always happening in jail. They spread HIV/AIDS around to each other then come out and either keep up relations with other men-on the down low-or hook up with a naive woman who finds out that he has given her the virus....

So I think the rate of our incarceration has something to do with the growth of this phenomena....again, my personal opinion....

Love
Sis Wenona

berkeley
12-22-2007, 02:22 PM
Sis Wenona,

I'd like to thank you for such a thorough post. What you had to say makes so much sense. I almost got a freak, once. So, I know what you are referring to. I politely declined to participate. :)

Again, thanks for the post.

Sister Alvear
12-22-2007, 02:41 PM
good to see you posting, wenona...blessings to you.

Thad
12-22-2007, 03:38 PM
I believe Thad was referring to Bishop1. However, I may be wrong.

Nonetheless thank you for a compassionate Christ-like post.

I don't think you can be stoned for your statements ... they are based in the Word and the love of our Lord.



I meant Bishop1 yes (NOT Bishopn)

Bishop1 believes that if you get a divorice you are going to Hell.
I am just stating what HE believes(not Thad)

I know a church that teaches it's members to shun anyone who's ever been divoriced or remarried. I have a friend who attends and she said it makes her heart ache for these people.

Trouvere
12-22-2007, 04:59 PM
Sister Wenona,
Don't forget where I live.lol.Sorry I missed the call.

Trouvere
12-22-2007, 05:01 PM
I work at a jail so I know what Wenona is saying to be true.There are however some flamers out there.The HIV rate in prisons is very high.I have
never given so much medicine in my life.The expense of it is horrible.Some of these meds are eight hundred a card or bottle.That shocks me.

SDG
12-22-2007, 06:01 PM
this thread has been such a good discussion.I was in a conversation with a pastor friend yesterday and the topic was that a certain minister was not allowed all the privilages all the other ministers in a certain church had because he had been divorced and remarried even though it was not his fault.This minister was given alot of responsibilities in the church and promised things but when another minister came to help in this work who had never been divorced he was chosen to take over the higher position.The first brother who had been divorced though it was not his fault was punished by
being pushed aside due to having a divorce in his past..I thought this was so harsh.

Awful ... if this is the entire reason ... DISGUSTING.

Yet I would not be surprised.

Thad
12-22-2007, 06:02 PM
Awful ... if this the entire reason ... DISGUSTING.

Yet I would not be surprised.

I'm not surprised by it in the least.

Trouvere
12-23-2007, 06:40 AM
I agree that is sad.Even the catholic churches offer classes to those preparing for marriage and view it as a sacrament.Its sad that people who don't believe in divorce aren't doing more to the cause of long term marriage.
My pastor does have a continual class going that all the married folks attend for Sunday School.The older adults have a class in the main auditorium and
the singles and new converts have their own classes.I am thankful that I go to a place that wants to help you make it to heaven in victory.

Rhoni
12-23-2007, 06:52 AM
He's My Friend & Trouvere,

Great posts and it is true...we need prevntative care instead of just spending our ministry putting out fires. God has given us the tools; we just need to implement them. Unfortunately this calls for a paradigm change.

Blessings, Rhoni

Trouvere
12-23-2007, 06:57 AM
He's My Friend & Trouvere,

Great posts and it is true...we need prevntative care instead of just spending our ministry putting out fires. God has given us the tools; we just need to implement them. Unfortunately this calls for a paradigm change.

Blessings, Rhoni

Amen I am all for that.Rhoni I will message you about all the good things
happening here.Its awesome.God is good.Eighteen from the ladies prision service received the Holy Ghost.


Just wondering if anyone noticed what Sister Alvear said about how people judge the divorced until it come closer to home with say themselves or a son or daughter.Then suddenly they begin to look for the loop holes in grace.

Rhoni
12-23-2007, 07:19 AM
Amen I am all for that.Rhoni I will message you about all the good things
happening here.Its awesome.God is good.Eighteen from the ladies prision service received the Holy Ghost.


Just wondering if anyone noticed what Sister Alvear said about how people judge the divorced until it come closer to home with say themselves or a son or daughter.Then suddenly they begin to look for the loop holes in grace.

Sis T,

Yes, I did notice what Sis. Alvear said and commented on it. It would be a much better church if we had grace going forward than looking for grace for oursleves or family after casting judgments on others before we really knew what it was like.:star

Looking forward to hearing what God is doing in prison ministry.

Blessings, Rhoni

OneAccord
12-23-2007, 07:44 AM
I was just skimming through this thread and, with divorce being a most explosive issue with a lot of folks, I just wanted to comment on how people on this thread are being so supportive of one another. Kinda does my heart good to see people encouraging one another and helping each other heal the wounds and hurt caused by divorce. Theres been alot of good posts here but Rhoni, Trouvere, Williamsbaby. Nahkoe, Mrs LPW, and anyone else I missed, you all deserve an extra candy cane in your Christmas Stocking for making this a supportive and encouraging thread... the kind of thread that we need more of!

Rhoni
12-23-2007, 04:45 PM
I was just skimming through this thread and, with divorce being a most explosive issue with a lot of folks, I just wanted to comment on how people on this thread are being so supportive of one another. Kinda does my heart good to see people encouraging one another and helping each other heal the wounds and hurt caused by divorce. Theres been alot of good posts here but Rhoni, Trouvere, Williamsbaby. Nahkoe, Mrs LPW, and anyone else I missed, you all deserve an extra candy cane in your Christmas Stocking for making this a supportive and encouraging thread... the kind of thread that we need more of!

One Accord,

I really didn't know what to say but I didn't want you to think your post had gone unnoticed. Thank-you, I think.

Those you have mentioned have been through so much that compassion is all they need and compassion is all they have to give because God has brought them through so much.

God Bless you,

Rhoni

Trouvere
12-25-2007, 07:16 PM
Amen I just noticed that last post by Rhoni.I did not know divorced folks faced so much in the church.I am so surprised by how much judgementalism is directed towards them.

TRFrance
12-25-2007, 10:34 PM
I have to admit that was one of the reasons I left the Apostolic church. the harsh and somewhat untrue teachings on divorce and remarriage.


Just want to make sure I understand...
...does this mean you no longer consider yourself Apostolic, or believe the doctrine?

I work at a jail so I know what Wenona is saying to be true.There are however some flamers out there.The HIV rate in prisons is very high.I have
never given so much medicine in my life.The expense of it is horrible.Some of these meds are eight hundred a card or bottle.That shocks me.

I think that's one reason some of these guys when they get out of jail will go and purposely commit a crime/violate their parole so they can go right back to prison. Free medical care. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to afford those meds they need to stay alive. Ironic, to say the least.

TRFrance
12-25-2007, 11:24 PM
Another church: A young lady came to the Lord whose husband was a cheater, and drug user. He left her... divorced her and remarried. The sister was told she would have to remain unmarried the rest of her life. It was suggested, however, that she could pray that the Lord take her husbands life, so she could remarry.

Without trying to stir up too much of a doctrinal debate on this, I'll just say I believe this teaching that the innocent party still has to wait till the unbelieving/departing/cheating ex-spouse dies is an error that has caused undue and unnecessary grief in the body of Christ.

I know a sister in the Lord who really liked a fellow Apostolic brother, but he had been previously divorced (his ex was a backslider who committed adultery). Her church/pastor taught that she couldn't marry him because he was still bound to his ex-wife until she died. Apparently it left the sister in quite a conundrum.

I remember once hearing her saying "Well... I can't pray that she [the ex-wife] dies..." *long silence* *crickets chirping* ...but from the tone of her voice I got the strong impression that she kinda wouldn't have minded too much if the ex-wife did die, so she could step over the dead body (so to speak) and marry the guy. It just had a very ghoulish, creepy feeling to it.

In a couple of ways we can have some very un-Christian thoughts and desires that can result from this erroneous teaching. Essentially what we're left with is a situation where we might have:
A) "Jack" secretly waiting/hoping that his ex-spouse would just hurry up and die, so he can remarry soon, or
B) "Jill" hoping that Jack's unsaved ex-spouse would just die so Jack could now become 'eligible' to be married (to her, of course!).

Seems very wrong to me on a couple of levels, but I think we all know that realistically, it happens in the church world.

Brother Price
12-26-2007, 04:53 AM
Religion has ruined far too many lives in this area. Innocent parties, those who did not break the covenant of marriage, are often treated worse than the offending party. They are left to believe that they will never be able to marry again. Lord help the ministers who endure divorce, whose spouses leave them. They lose their families and their ministries in most of these situations.

Religion kills as much as divorce does.

TRFrance
12-26-2007, 05:13 PM
Religion has ruined far too many lives in this area. Innocent parties, those who did not break the covenant of marriage, are often treated worse than the offending party. They are left to believe that they will never be able to marry again. Lord help the ministers who endure divorce, whose spouses leave them. They lose their families and their ministries in most of these situations.

Religion kills as much as divorce does.

Very true bro.

Its sad to me that some churches act like a minister should lose his God- given ministry (or at least his ministry should be seen as less credible) just because his wife leaves him. But many seem to think that way.

Hate to say it, but this is the kind of thing that makes many say that too many Apostolics seem to love doctrine, "church rules", and the letter of the law, more than they love God.

Ronzo
12-26-2007, 05:34 PM
Very true bro.

Its sad to me that some churches act like a minister should lose his God- given ministry (or at least his ministry should be seen as less credible) just because his wife leaves him. But many seem to think that way.

Hate to say it, but this is the kind of thing that makes many say that too many Apostolics seem to love doctrine, "church rules", and the letter of the law, more than they love God.

This is something you and I can agree on... all of what you said here, actually.