View Full Version : Ministerial Ethics, a different perspective
ChicagoPastor
12-21-2007, 11:15 PM
I had an interesting conversation with the President of the UPC of El Salvador today. He said that recently he was invited to a Pastor's seminar/retreat in the U.S. The asked him to teach on ministerial ethics. The host specificly asked him to focus on Pastor's that steal other Pastor's 'sheep' or let members from one church join their church without letters or phone calls from the previous Pastor.
Well, he said that as he was preparing for the session, he realized that EVERY TIME that he has been in the U.S. and they ask him to teach on ministerial ethics, they ALWAYS want him to talk about 'sheep stealing' or topics very closely related to sheep stealing.
He decided to go a new route this time. Rather than teach on "not stealing sheep" he taught on "How to keep your sheep from wandering"!!! He said that if Pastors would do a better job of Pastoring their sheep there wouldn't be so many wandering sheep. He said that one of the United State's biggest problems in ministry is the competitive and jealous spirit that is in a lot of the Pastors. Rather than be happy because a neighboring church is growing, a Pastor will discredit the growth or look for something wrong with the neighboring church.
He said that had John the Baptist been a typical U.S. Pastor, John would've been upset that Jesus left and started his own ministry after John baptized Him :)
ANYHOW I think it's a good thought and something we need to focus on. Sometimes we get too concerned or focused on the troublemakers in our sections or districts and we don't see what we could be doing better.
:rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph
deacon blues
12-22-2007, 12:21 AM
Good thread
ChicagoPastor
12-22-2007, 12:43 AM
Good thread
it's kinda slow, but I thought it was a good topic....
:gift no scandals, no conspiracies...
BoredOutOfMyMind
12-22-2007, 12:55 AM
it's kinda slow, but I thought it was a good topic....
:gift no scandals, no conspiracies...
Plenty of folk simply dashing through the malls..... :santathumb
bump it next month if it does not get airplay.
Evang.Benincasa
12-22-2007, 06:55 PM
I had an interesting conversation with the President of the UPC of El Salvador today. He said that recently he was invited to a Pastor's seminar/retreat in the U.S. The asked him to teach on ministerial ethics. The host specificly asked him to focus on Pastor's that steal other Pastor's 'sheep' or let members from one church join their church without letters or phone calls from the previous Pastor.
Well, he said that as he was preparing for the session, he realized that EVERY TIME that he has been in the U.S. and they ask him to teach on ministerial ethics, they ALWAYS want him to talk about 'sheep stealing' or topics very closely related to sheep stealing.
He decided to go a new route this time. Rather than teach on "not stealing sheep" he taught on "How to keep your sheep from wandering"!!! He said that if Pastors would do a better job of Pastoring their sheep there wouldn't be so many wandering sheep. He said that one of the United State's biggest problems in ministry is the competitive and jealous spirit that is in a lot of the Pastors. Rather than be happy because a neighboring church is growing, a Pastor will discredit the growth or look for something wrong with the neighboring church.
He said that had John the Baptist been a typical U.S. Pastor, John would've been upset that Jesus left and started his own ministry after John baptized Him :)
ANYHOW I think it's a good thought and something we need to focus on. Sometimes we get too concerned or focused on the troublemakers in our sections or districts and we don't see what we could be doing better.
Interesting thread would like to see what some would say about this.
Carpenter
12-22-2007, 07:08 PM
I had an interesting conversation with the President of the UPC of El Salvador today. He said that recently he was invited to a Pastor's seminar/retreat in the U.S. The asked him to teach on ministerial ethics. The host specificly asked him to focus on Pastor's that steal other Pastor's 'sheep' or let members from one church join their church without letters or phone calls from the previous Pastor.
Well, he said that as he was preparing for the session, he realized that EVERY TIME that he has been in the U.S. and they ask him to teach on ministerial ethics, they ALWAYS want him to talk about 'sheep stealing' or topics very closely related to sheep stealing.
He decided to go a new route this time. Rather than teach on "not stealing sheep" he taught on "How to keep your sheep from wandering"!!! He said that if Pastors would do a better job of Pastoring their sheep there wouldn't be so many wandering sheep. He said that one of the United State's biggest problems in ministry is the competitive and jealous spirit that is in a lot of the Pastors. Rather than be happy because a neighboring church is growing, a Pastor will discredit the growth or look for something wrong with the neighboring church.
He said that had John the Baptist been a typical U.S. Pastor, John would've been upset that Jesus left and started his own ministry after John baptized Him :)
ANYHOW I think it's a good thought and something we need to focus on. Sometimes we get too concerned or focused on the troublemakers in our sections or districts and we don't see what we could be doing better.
:rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph
If you were to take an census in any metropolitan area, you would find that most OPs in that city by and large congregate at one church regardless of how many like churches they pass along the way.
This is unfortunate for several different reasons, the largest of which is that the church is NOT making nor is it focused on making a difference in their own community. How on earth can you invite someone to church then tell them they have to drive 30-45 minutes to church three or more times per week? Personally, I wouldn't do that.
Unfortunately it all goes back to the structure and the lack of unity in the/any organization. Sad.
Pastor Keith
12-22-2007, 07:10 PM
I had an interesting conversation with the President of the UPC of El Salvador today. He said that recently he was invited to a Pastor's seminar/retreat in the U.S. The asked him to teach on ministerial ethics. The host specificly asked him to focus on Pastor's that steal other Pastor's 'sheep' or let members from one church join their church without letters or phone calls from the previous Pastor.
Well, he said that as he was preparing for the session, he realized that EVERY TIME that he has been in the U.S. and they ask him to teach on ministerial ethics, they ALWAYS want him to talk about 'sheep stealing' or topics very closely related to sheep stealing.
He decided to go a new route this time. Rather than teach on "not stealing sheep" he taught on "How to keep your sheep from wandering"!!! He said that if Pastors would do a better job of Pastoring their sheep there wouldn't be so many wandering sheep. He said that one of the United State's biggest problems in ministry is the competitive and jealous spirit that is in a lot of the Pastors. Rather than be happy because a neighboring church is growing, a Pastor will discredit the growth or look for something wrong with the neighboring church.
He said that had John the Baptist been a typical U.S. Pastor, John would've been upset that Jesus left and started his own ministry after John baptized Him :)
ANYHOW I think it's a good thought and something we need to focus on. Sometimes we get too concerned or focused on the troublemakers in our sections or districts and we don't see what we could be doing better.
:rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph
Sometimes Pastors only pastor people for a season, sometimes they only Pastor a church for a season, people belong to the Lord, if they come to my church fine, if they go somewhere else, fine, they belong to the Lord.
Sure I get me feelings hurt (I am human), you bring up John the Baptist, short time Pastor/Prophet, short on this earth, but long on influence.
Pastor Keith
12-22-2007, 07:14 PM
Taken from Neil Cole, I think fits in somewhat to this discussion.
Theology of Death
Why are we so desperate to keep churches alive? While I know that the church is special to Jesus (His bride!) I think we have lost touch with something very spiritual…death. Can it be that death is as spiritually right as life? Well consider this, without death you cannot have a resurrection, the Gospel, salvation…life. Perhaps it is time that we embrace a theology of death.
The thinking behind this has caused us to commit the worst treason possible against heaven�&emdash;self-preservation. Why is self-preservation so bad, aren’t there worse things a church can do? Self-preservation is nothing short of blasphemy, it is taking into our own hands the function of Deity. It is playing God, plain and simple. That is the problem. As a consequence, literally tens of thousands of Christians and churches are deceived into a “churchianity” that is carried out by men, for men, under the name of God. I wonder if God likes getting the credit for all of the ........ we do.
While we clearly avoid a theology of death, the opposite is not a theology of life, for life is not what you will find in churches that strive to avoid death at all costs. I don’t know how it happened, but sometime in history we bought into a theology of safe. We think that we should do what is safe, for ourselves, for our families and for our churches. In fact, we are convinced that anything that is unsafe must be outside of God’s will and is thoroughly un-American. A theology of safe is put in place as a defensive measure to avoid death. This leads us right down the path of self-preservation.
Jesus is not about safe. He is the one who said things like… “I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves.” “I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” “He who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.” “Let the dead bury the dead�&emdash;you follow me.” These are not safe and wholesome words, they are words that shake us up and toss us out way past what is safe.
I have come up with two acronyms to expose some of our delusion regarding these things. The first reveals our inadequate theology of SAFE. The other is how Jesus wants us to embrace a theology of DEATH.
Safe is…
Self-preservation = our mission
Avoidance of the world and risk = wisdom
Financial security = responsible faith
Education = maturity
This is what a theology of death looks like…
Die daily to who we are
Empowerment of others (not self) is our life
Acceptance of risk is normative
Theology is not just knowledge, but practice
Hold tight to Christ with an open hand for everything else.
Jesus said, “He who clings to his life shall lose it, but he who loses his life for my sake will find it.” We need to embrace a theology of death, our lives depend upon it!
ChicagoPastor
01-02-2008, 06:51 AM
:bumpsign
RevBuddy
01-02-2008, 07:53 AM
Sheep and Shepherds is always an interesting topic...
...the primary responsibilities of a shepherd are protection and provision...
...the primary responsibility of a sheep is to follow...
Unfortunately, flocks always encounter other flocks, and sheep are quite capable of STRAYING quickly...
While I've heard many stories about "bell cows," I've never heard one story about a "bell ewe." Sheep are not like cattle. They don't behave in a similar fashion. If sheep are not following, then they are not fulfilling their responsibility, and they are straying...
Shepheards also need to understand that there are other shepherds in the field...they are not alone and they are not "the last shepherd before doomsday." Other shepherds are called to shepherding and the sheep need all of them, just a differing time...
Sister Alvear
01-02-2008, 08:30 AM
Well, I have my own thoughts about this subject. The first thought that comes to my mind is you cannot please everybody!
Church hoppers will always exist.
Churches mean different things to different people.
Some had rather get lost in the sea of people just to be among church goers but not a doer...
No pastor can please everybody.
Some people just live for the thrill of being the new comer at some church the new wears off and they are gone.
Some people will never be loyal.
The most ideal church that we can think of has people coming and going...that is a fact of life...
Sometimes people don´t fit in ...like a foreign body...they are just not a part...
Sometimes pastors don´t want certain people because they are trouble.
Those things are just off the top of my hat...why sheep wander...and dear ones FEW REAL SHEEP WANDER they KNOW the voice of their pastor...
Too many times it is a goat or a wolf....a real sheep will sit down and talk things out with the pastor not behind his back to the pastor across town that very seldom knows the real nature of the sheep or the problem...
We have a rather large work. In the state of Sao Paulo alone not counting any other state we have over 500 registered ministers...So believe me I see lots of things...Some people the pastor is glad to see go not because he does not love souls BUT because he does love souls and some people just destroy.
I had a rather long talk just not long ago with a pastor and his wife about this same subject. They wanted to know how to deal with someone that was insisting on this or that. I told them to ignore the person. Some people want your total attention and even if you gave it to them they woud not do right. I told a group of preachers last night the devil knows how to get all our attention on some problem, some person, some this or that to distract us from doing the REAL work of God.
Every church will always have some unhappy people that try to contaminate others. Late last night someone walked into my office and saw a picture of someone that gave us so many headaches...and a picture of someone that tried to play both sides of the fence....Why don´t you tear these pictures up, missionary the person said...OH no I replied looking at them makes me so thankful for the host of faithful ones...
So everybody serves a purpose sadly some people are just scaffold. I really weep for these that sometimes give so much but never serve for any lasting purpose…
Sister Alvear
01-02-2008, 08:58 AM
Real life experiences teach us lots of things.
One experience I have learned is a problem one place is a problem another place...who commits sin one place will commit sin another place...who is a misfit because of character flaws will be a misfit somewhere else. Who sides with trouble makers will side with trouble makers where ever they are...
The root of many problems comes from the depth of an evil heart...people watched someone running from one house to another...run to me with the story...I just smiled and said...people that play on both sides end up with no friends at all...I have watched it happen over and over in 40 years of ministry and a total of almost 50 years preaching! Remember I started preaching as a kid...
I just had some fault finders at my house…lol…they have been members of all the churches in the area where they live so it was of no surprise to me that they wanted to tell me how to run our church.
This is just an example to help you younger ones in ministry. I called a meeting (Brother Alvear is traveling) so our co pastor came, Pastor Michal Pastor Ednei (our sons) and several more and got him an interrupter for him to express what he felt we were doing wrong…
One of the things he was so up in the air about was at a house meeting Michael had let a trinity lady sing a song! On and on he rambled…finally Michael asked him if he could tell us how many trinity people he had won to his church where he is a member…;well he fumbled around a while and said he had witnessed to a few…but won none…
Michael told him you see my mother sitting here she is m example and all my life I have seen her be kind to trinity folks and never say they serve a different God or make derogatory remarks about them…would you like to know how many hundreds she has won?
So without going into details I told him to please pray for us and forgive our lack of spirituality and Sunday he could stay in his room if he felt that our church was not spiritual enough for him and there would be no hard feelings on my part…I sure would appreciate someone praying several hours for me! But he decided to be humble and come…and HE WATCHED us baptize 9 trinity people in Jesus name and watched 21 people come from a once trinity church in another state to be in our service that are now baptized in Jesus name. He watched another once trinity church group we baptized in Jesus name last year helping in the service…So dear ones criticism is easy and there will always be critics but getting solid word done for eternity is another story.
maybe a little off the subject...but good advice anyway...( Birds of like feathers fly together)
Pragmatist
01-02-2008, 09:01 AM
How on earth can you invite someone to church then tell them they have to drive 30-45 minutes to church three or more times per week? Personally, I wouldn't do that.
I totally agree with the above. And that is why we don't drive the minimum 45 minutes or longer to the "big" church. Plus, I actually prefer my small church and definitely prefer my pastor. It is sad, though, that there are many in the town where my church is located who do go to the big church instead, rather than reaching out in their own community.
RevBuddy
01-02-2008, 09:14 AM
My experience in the Big Apple with calls inquiring about church was this...
"How big is your congregation?" "How many people are you running?" It is a continuing phenomena that people seem always interested in the number in the congregation and not the character or spirit of the assembly...sad really...
Cindy
01-02-2008, 09:22 AM
Very insightful post as always Sis. Alvear.
crakjak
01-02-2008, 09:48 AM
Sheep stealing???? Pastors' are thieves??? Good grief!!!
LadyChocolate
01-02-2008, 10:11 AM
Sometimes they are crakjak...but more often than not, the sheep wander. Sometimes it really is time for people to move on... We were in a situation where it was time for us to move on and the pastor just would not let it happen... Pastors need to realize that. A real man of God told my hubby once, "sometimes, God sends a man to a city to make that city. Sometimes God sends a man to a city to make that man." That is how it was in our case. I honor the men of God who are willing to let their saints/ministry move on a do more for God.
Sometimes people just leave. They want more or want less. They always see greener grass on the other side. They are not being "proselyted," they are leaving. One thing you cannot do is "force" those people to stay. They will end up causing a whole lot of grief in a church.
When people leave, whether on a good note or not, God will always take care of that church.... as long as the pastor keeps walking with God! One man I know said that anytime saints left the church, God always sent new ones!!! Faith!
Sheep stealing???? Pastors' are thieves??? Good grief!!!
Who do the sheep belong to?
Sister Alvear
01-02-2008, 11:40 AM
I am of the opinion everyone needs a home church and a pastor...people that run here and there will also run looking for every person that says they are Christ doing miracles on some street corner.
I used to think everone that appeared on my door step was sincere today I know lots just wanted a free handout...
In fact there are some things I will never do again...other things I will do differently. Lots of misfits appear and you help them from the goodness of your heart and as soon as they can stand on their on they stab you but always after they have used you.
Sam is right sheep belong to the Lord but the Lord himself gave us the story about sheep...they need a pastor.
Sheep (?) who will not listen are not sheep...sheep hear the voice of their pastor. And I am talking about a biblical pastor...not an abuser.
All pastores have had those who butter them up...beware...
Real sheep are precious and a real pastor will give his life for his sheep.
Sister Alvear
01-02-2008, 11:43 AM
Sheep have to have a sheepfold or they just become wanderers...
RevDWW
01-02-2008, 11:54 AM
Pastors are under shepherds and would do well to ask themselves often if they are feeding and caring for the fold as the Good Shepherd would.
Sister Alvear
01-02-2008, 12:21 PM
The Good Shepherd would never abandon his sheep but would love them to the end.
Cindy
01-02-2008, 02:17 PM
Preach it Sis. Alvear!!!!
Esther
01-02-2008, 02:37 PM
There are a lot of good post on this thread.
Question, does a shepherd lead the flock or follow?
Nahum
01-02-2008, 02:48 PM
Honestly, I have always thought of pastors as gatherers. It amazes me that I need to get fifteen letters, three phone calls and an audience with the mayor just to talk to another saint of God thirty miles away - SIMPLY BECAUSE I AM A PASTOR!!!
What is it with this culture of fear we have created?
Folks, in my short seven years as a pastor I have learned that you can't keep people who want to leave, and you can't force people to come who don't want to. You also can't keep people out of your church that want to come.
It IS a public place.
Normally the guys that scream "sheep stealer!" the loudest are the worst offenders.
BTW, I do believe in ethics, I just think we go overboard sometimes.
It's as if we think we own people or something, and it's silliness.
Nahum
01-02-2008, 02:50 PM
My experience in the Big Apple with calls inquiring about church was this...
"How big is your congregation?" "How many people are you running?" It is a continuing phenomena that people seem always interested in the number in the congregation and not the character or spirit of the assembly...sad really...
I can relate. It's never "how are you?" It's always "how's the church", or "how many you runnin?"
RevBuddy
01-02-2008, 02:57 PM
PP,
People are people, I guess...but I was always surprised that almost never did the callers ask about doctrine, worship services, etc. If they had, I could have given them a great testimony. As it was, I told them our attendance and gave them a hearty welcome to come and be a part of a vibrant church fellowship...and, amazingly, several did and integrated successfully.
Sister Truth Seeker
01-02-2008, 03:13 PM
I had an interesting conversation with the President of the UPC of El Salvador today. He said that recently he was invited to a Pastor's seminar/retreat in the U.S. The asked him to teach on ministerial ethics. The host specificly asked him to focus on Pastor's that steal other Pastor's 'sheep' or let members from one church join their church without letters or phone calls from the previous Pastor.
Well, he said that as he was preparing for the session, he realized that EVERY TIME that he has been in the U.S. and they ask him to teach on ministerial ethics, they ALWAYS want him to talk about 'sheep stealing' or topics very closely related to sheep stealing.
He decided to go a new route this time. Rather than teach on "not stealing sheep" he taught on "How to keep your sheep from wandering"!!! He said that if Pastors would do a better job of Pastoring their sheep there wouldn't be so many wandering sheep. He said that one of the United State's biggest problems in ministry is the competitive and jealous spirit that is in a lot of the Pastors. Rather than be happy because a neighboring church is growing, a Pastor will discredit the growth or look for something wrong with the neighboring church.
He said that had John the Baptist been a typical U.S. Pastor, John would've been upset that Jesus left and started his own ministry after John baptized Him :)
ANYHOW I think it's a good thought and something we need to focus on. Sometimes we get too concerned or focused on the troublemakers in our sections or districts and we don't see what we could be doing better.
:rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph :rudolph
AMEN!!!!! I have seen it, felt it, been abused by it!
Pragmatist
01-02-2008, 03:15 PM
Honestly, I have always thought of pastors as gatherers. It amazes me that I need to get fifteen letters, three phone calls and an audience with the mayor just to talk to another saint of God thirty miles away - SIMPLY BECAUSE I AM A PASTOR!!!
What is it with this culture of fear we have created?
Folks, in my short seven years as a pastor I have learned that you can't keep people who want to leave, and you can't force people to come who don't want to. You also can't keep people out of your church that want to come.
It IS a public place.
Normally the guys that scream "sheep stealer!" the loudest are the worst offenders.
BTW, I do believe in ethics, I just think we go overboard sometimes.
It's as if we think we own people or something, and it's silliness.
I agree that the "rules" sometimes go overboard. I know some pastors refuse to give people a letter of reference even if they move and are much closer to another church.
Sister Alvear
01-02-2008, 08:48 PM
Tonight my house has been overflowing with precious sheep praying and crying over Brother Alvear´s accident. My phone has been ringing off the hook....most of the time collect and them saying sorry missionary but we didn´t have minutes on our phone but we need to know about our pastor.
There must be a bond between the pastor and his people...One of the ways to form a bond is loving your people...anybody can see through a false person. People are not dumb they will know if their pastor loves them.
Felicity
01-02-2008, 08:51 PM
Tonight my house has been overflowing with precious sheep praying and crying over Brother Alvear´s accident. My phone has been ringing off the hook....most of the time collect and them saying sorry missionary but we didn´t have minutes on our phone but we need to know about our pastor.
There must be a bond between the pastor and his people...One of the ways to form a bond is loving your people...anybody can see through a false person. People are not dumb they will know if their pastor loves them.Absolutely! And that includes people who are living in foreign countries. They recognize and understand and are very perceptive if the missionary truly loves and accepts them. You can't fool them. They're way smarter and perceptive than many North Americans give them credit for. :nod
crakjak
01-03-2008, 04:30 PM
Sometimes they are crakjak...but more often than not, the sheep wander. Sometimes it really is time for people to move on... We were in a situation where it was time for us to move on and the pastor just would not let it happen... Pastors need to realize that. A real man of God told my hubby once, "sometimes, God sends a man to a city to make that city. Sometimes God sends a man to a city to make that man." That is how it was in our case. I honor the men of God who are willing to let their saints/ministry move on a do more for God.
Sometimes people just leave. They want more or want less. They always see greener grass on the other side. They are not being "proselyted," they are leaving. One thing you cannot do is "force" those people to stay. They will end up causing a whole lot of grief in a church.
When people leave, whether on a good note or not, God will always take care of that church.... as long as the pastor keeps walking with God! One man I know said that anytime saints left the church, God always sent new ones!!! Faith!
I agree, great post.
commonsense
01-03-2008, 07:09 PM
Honestly, I have always thought of pastors as gatherers. It amazes me that I need to get fifteen letters, three phone calls and an audience with the mayor just to talk to another saint of God thirty miles away - SIMPLY BECAUSE I AM A PASTOR!!!
What is it with this culture of fear we have created?
Folks, in my short seven years as a pastor I have learned that you can't keep people who want to leave, and you can't force people to come who don't want to. You also can't keep people out of your church that want to come.
It IS a public place.
Normally the guys that scream "sheep stealer!" the loudest are the worst offenders.
BTW, I do believe in ethics, I just think we go overboard sometimes.
It's as if we think we own people or something, and it's silliness.
I agree, it's just silliness. Many years ago we were called on the carpet because while visiting in another city we were invited to the home of one of the saints (friends of ours) and we did not call the local pastor first for permission. We lived 75 miles away, I doubt they were going to come to our church.
As adults we are free, white and 21...the idea that we can control people is at best entertaining.
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