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Adino
12-24-2007, 09:59 AM
A post exploring the reception of sin remission at the conversion of man's heart in repentance prior to water baptism:

The idea that forgiveness of sins is received at repentance permeates the NT. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John each make the point that forgiveness is received at repentance by quoting from Isaiah 6:10.

Isaiah 6:10

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.


To understand with the heart and “convert” in Isaiah 6:10 meant to “return to God in faith” or to “repent”. To “be healed” meant to be “made whole” or to be “made free from error or sin.” It meant to be forgiven.

Isaiah 6:10

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert (i.e., repent), and be healed (i.e., forgiven).

Those who repented would be forgiven.


Matthew 13:15

For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal (i.e., forgive) them.

See also Mark 4:11-12 (which uses “forgiven”); John 12:37-40; and Acts 28:23-29.


To authors Matthew, Mark, Luke (in Acts), and John, “the heart” turning back to God in repentance brought healing / forgiveness.


Acts 3:19

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Forgiveness is received when the repenting heart converts to faith in Christ.


Luke 24:47

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The phrase “repentance and remission of sins” in the Nestle Aland Greek version of Luke 24:47 is “metanoia eis aphesis” which is everywhere else interpreted “repentance FOR (EIS) the remission of sins.”


Mark 1:4

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for (eis) the remission of sins.

Luke 3:3

And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for (eis) the remission of sins;

John’s baptism pointed to repentance which was FOR the remission of sins.

There is strong evidence to suggest that Luke 24:47 teaches that “repentance FOR (EIS) the remission of sins” was to be preached through faith in the name of Jesus!


Acts 10:43

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

The repenting heart returning to God via faith in Jesus Christ absolutely SHALL receive the remission / forgiveness of sins.


Acts 2:38 supports this conclusion when you realize that the word “repent” is written in the 2nd person plural, the phrase “be baptized” in the 3rd person singular, and the phrase “for the remission of sins” again in the 2nd person plural.

It is grammatically sound to realize that the 2nd person plural phrases are connected while the insertion of a 3rd person singular phrase is parenthetical. Meaning, sin remission is to be connected to repentance and not to water baptism. Baptism becomes a parenthetical insertion as that which points to the forgiveness received when the repenting heart converts to faith in God through Jesus Christ.

If “EIS” is to be accepted as causal in meaning (i.e. “in order to obtain”) then we have John the Baptist (Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3), Jesus Christ (Luke 24:47), and Peter (Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19) teaching that man was to repent EIS (in order to obtain) the remission of sins.

Thus, forgiveness is received prior to baptism when the repenting heart converts to faith in God through Christ. Water baptism only points to this internal reality after the fact. The conscience made good before God prior to baptism is declared in baptism.

Your thoughts...

freeatlast
12-24-2007, 11:24 AM
I agree ya with ya Adino.

Our misunderstanding has caused us to believe that sins can not remitted with out the servces of a MAN that recites words over someone while they are under water. That the blood is not applied until baptism.

The preacher, in that theology can take credit for applying the blood to a believers heart.

One preacher on this forum last week claimed that he was instrumental in forgiving sins when he baptized people.

The hardest thing for a man to do is to admit he is wrong. That will be the undoing of some I fear.

Brother Price
12-24-2007, 11:26 AM
Well spoken!

berkeley
12-24-2007, 11:27 AM
Price,

Are you still into Preterism?

Brother Price
12-24-2007, 11:29 AM
UH, no. Still a futurist. Not a dispensationalist, but still a full fledged futurist.

In fact, though I share some points of agreement with preterism, I have not been into prepterism for many months now, maybe as long as two years. Had some leanings recently, but did not venture that direction.

Apprehended
12-24-2007, 11:36 AM
Thread removed by Admin.

Raven
12-24-2007, 11:38 AM
Adino
You said it well and I agree.

Raven

Brother Price
12-24-2007, 11:42 AM
Only those who would come into Covenant agreement with Christ can be saved. One must repent of their sins. One must accept Christ and ask forgiveness, not for just the sake of conscience, but for the sake of one's soul.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are IN Christ Jesus. You must be in Christ to have condemnation removed.

HangingOut
12-24-2007, 11:54 AM
Very well put. Our Sunday School speaker taught on atonement yesterday and stated that even though he had been in pentecost his entire life he was just now getting an understanding of this. Interesting.

A post exploring the reception of sin remission at the conversion of man's heart in repentance prior to water baptism:

The idea that forgiveness of sins is received at repentance permeates the NT. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John each make the point that forgiveness is received at repentance by quoting from Isaiah 6:10.

Isaiah 6:10

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.


To understand with the heart and “convert” in Isaiah 6:10 meant to “return to God in faith” or to “repent”. To “be healed” meant to be “made whole” or to be “made free from error or sin.” It meant to be forgiven.

Isaiah 6:10

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert (i.e., repent), and be healed (i.e., forgiven).

Those who repented would be forgiven.


Matthew 13:15

For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal (i.e., forgive) them.

See also Mark 4:11-12 (which uses “forgiven”); John 12:37-40; and Acts 28:23-29.


To authors Matthew, Mark, Luke (in Acts), and John, “the heart” turning back to God in repentance brought healing / forgiveness.


Acts 3:19

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Forgiveness is received when the repenting heart converts to faith in Christ.


Luke 24:47

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The phrase “repentance and remission of sins” in the Nestle Aland Greek version of Luke 24:47 is “metanoia eis aphesis” which is everywhere else interpreted “repentance FOR (EIS) the remission of sins.”


Mark 1:4

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for (eis) the remission of sins.

Luke 3:3

And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for (eis) the remission of sins;

John’s baptism pointed to repentance which was FOR the remission of sins.

There is strong evidence to suggest that Luke 24:47 teaches that “repentance FOR (EIS) the remission of sins” was to be preached through faith in the name of Jesus!


Acts 10:43

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

The repenting heart returning to God via faith in Jesus Christ absolutely SHALL receive the remission / forgiveness of sins.


Acts 2:38 supports this conclusion when you realize that the word “repent” is written in the 2nd person plural, the phrase “be baptized” in the 3rd person singular, and the phrase “for the remission of sins” again in the 2nd person plural.

It is grammatically sound to realize that the 2nd person plural phrases are connected while the insertion of a 3rd person singular phrase is parenthetical. Meaning, sin remission is to be connected to repentance and not to water baptism. Baptism becomes a parenthetical insertion as that which points to the forgiveness received when the repenting heart converts to faith in God through Jesus Christ.

If “EIS” is to be accepted as causal in meaning (i.e. “in order to obtain”) then we have John the Baptist (Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3), Jesus Christ (Luke 24:47), and Peter (Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19) teaching that man was to repent EIS (in order to obtain) the remission of sins.

Thus, forgiveness is received prior to baptism when the repenting heart converts to faith in God through Christ. Water baptism only points to this internal reality after the fact. The conscience made good before God prior to baptism is declared in baptism.

Your thoughts...

Apprehended
12-24-2007, 12:30 PM
Just in case someone may be confused in what in what Jesus did for us at the cross by taking away the sin of the world and universal salvation, let there be no doubt... I do not believe in Universal Salvation. Furthermore, I believe that one must walk in all the light of the Gospel that they have to be saved.

Let there be no doubt.

Dedicated Mind
12-24-2007, 12:43 PM
I agree that sins are forgiven at repentance, but that doesn't preclude the need for water baptism. W B is still essential to entering the new covenant and salvation.

ManOfWord
12-24-2007, 03:01 PM
I agree that sins are forgiven at repentance, but that doesn't preclude the need for water baptism. W B is still essential to entering the new covenant and salvation.

So, are you saying that one can have their sins forgiven (pre-baptism) and at that point NOT be saved?


I too, believe that water baptism is essential. The question is: Essential for what? I believe, essential to obedience to the word of God.

Dedicated Mind
12-24-2007, 03:07 PM
So, are you saying that one can have their sins forgiven (pre-baptism) and at that point NOT be saved?


I too, believe that water baptism is essential. The question is: Essential for what? I believe, essential to obedience to the word of God.

I make a distinction between being "saved" and being "born again". A person might be saved if he dies after repenting, but is not born again until after baptism in water and spirit.

Brother Price
12-24-2007, 03:09 PM
DM, so one can be saved, but not go to Heaven?

Dedicated Mind
12-24-2007, 03:22 PM
DM, so one can be saved, but not go to Heaven?

What do you mean by saved? If one is saved, one is going to heaven. One can be born again and lose his salvation.

berkeley
12-24-2007, 03:37 PM
What do you mean by saved? If one is saved, one is going to heaven. One can be born again and lose his salvation.

He interpreted your post as to say:

One can be saved, but go to hell for not being born again.

Adino
12-24-2007, 03:50 PM
Very well put. Our Sunday School speaker taught on atonement yesterday and stated that even though he had been in pentecost his entire life he was just now getting an understanding of this. Interesting.I've been in Oneness Pentecostalism since about 1968/69 and it has only been in the past few years that deeper insights concerning repentance and sin remission have come to light for me.

When it is realized that Luke 24:47 very likely refers to preaching "repentance FOR the remission of sins" in Jesus' name, this passage can be used to further define Acts 2:38 and the relation of sin remission to repentance taught in it.

This approach does not require "eis" to be non-purposive. While I think defining "eis" in Acts 2:38 as "with a view toward" (or something similar) is also a strong "non-purposive/ non-causal" position I see the non-purposive "because of" argument as rather weak. The approach I offered in my original post proposes a purposive/causal meaning to "eis" like those in traditional Oneness Pentecostalism would welcome, yet it points out that just because "eis" can be considered as causal it doesn't necessarily mean Acts 2:38 teaches baptismal sin remission.

That baptism becomes a parenthetical insertion not causing sin remission is huge.

Dedicated Mind
12-24-2007, 03:51 PM
He interpreted your post as to say:

One can be saved, but go to hell for not being born again.

Gotcha. Born again is about experiencing salvation in the here and now.

berkeley
12-24-2007, 03:52 PM
Gotcha. Born again is about experiencing salvation in the here and now.

And that differs from being 'saved'?

Dedicated Mind
12-24-2007, 04:05 PM
And that differs from being 'saved'?

not exactly, ultimate salvation is at judgement in heaven.

ChristopherHall
12-24-2007, 05:33 PM
I think there may be confusion regarding this issue because of a neglect for specific doctrines that are taught in Scripture. Here's the break down as I understand it:

Justification: When one repents they are justified by faith before God based upon the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Being justified they can now come forward and receive Regeneration and Adoption.

Regeneration: Once one has repented of sins and has been justified before God they may now receive the Holy Ghost which begins the spiritual process known as regeneration. The believer's spirit is now given new life through the Power of the Holy Ghost.

Adoption: This takes place when the believer is baptized in Jesus name. By taking upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ through baptism they now become children of God. Baptism can be likened unto a covenantal step of obedience such as circumcision.

Sanctification: This is a life long process of perfecting holiness that begins at repentance and ends when the Lord calls the believer home.

The question has consistantly argued regarding at what point are sins remitted...when one repents or when one is baptized? The truth is both. One's sins cannot be remitted until they have both repented and been baptized. The entire process (repentance, water baptism, and infilling of the Holy Ghost) is interconnected and is vitally necessary for salvation.

To be saved one must:

Repent (be justified), be water baptized in Jesus name (adopted), receive the Holy Ghost (be regenerated), and live a life of holiness Christian disciplines (be sanctified).

All are absolutely essential.

mizpeh
12-24-2007, 05:44 PM
A post exploring the reception of sin remission at the conversion of man's heart in repentance prior to water baptism:

The idea that forgiveness of sins is received at repentance permeates the NT. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John each make the point that forgiveness is received at repentance by quoting from Isaiah 6:10.

Isaiah 6:10

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.


To understand with the heart and “convert” in Isaiah 6:10 meant to “return to God in faith” or to “repent”. To “be healed” meant to be “made whole” or to be “made free from error or sin.” It meant to be forgiven.

Isaiah 6:10

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert (i.e., repent), and be healed (i.e., forgiven).

Those who repented would be forgiven.


Matthew 13:15

For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal (i.e., forgive) them.

See also Mark 4:11-12 (which uses “forgiven”); John 12:37-40; and Acts 28:23-29.


To authors Matthew, Mark, Luke (in Acts), and John, “the heart” turning back to God in repentance brought healing / forgiveness.


Acts 3:19

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Forgiveness is received when the repenting heart converts to faith in Christ.


Luke 24:47

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The phrase “repentance and remission of sins” in the Nestle Aland Greek version of Luke 24:47 is “metanoia eis aphesis” which is everywhere else interpreted “repentance FOR (EIS) the remission of sins.”


Mark 1:4

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for (eis) the remission of sins.

Luke 3:3

And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for (eis) the remission of sins;

John’s baptism pointed to repentance which was FOR the remission of sins.

There is strong evidence to suggest that Luke 24:47 teaches that “repentance FOR (EIS) the remission of sins” was to be preached through faith in the name of Jesus!


Acts 10:43

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

The repenting heart returning to God via faith in Jesus Christ absolutely SHALL receive the remission / forgiveness of sins.I agreed with almost everything you said up until this point.

Acts 2:38 supports this conclusion when you realize that the word “repent” is written in the 2nd person plural, the phrase “be baptized” in the 3rd person singular, and the phrase “for the remission of sins” again in the 2nd person plural.

It is grammatically sound to realize that the 2nd person plural phrases are connected while the insertion of a 3rd person singular phrase is parenthetical. Meaning, sin remission is to be connected to repentance and not to water baptism. Baptism becomes a parenthetical insertion as that which points to the forgiveness received when the repenting heart converts to faith in God through Jesus Christ.

If “EIS” is to be accepted as causal in meaning (i.e. “in order to obtain”) then we have John the Baptist (Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3), Jesus Christ (Luke 24:47), and Peter (Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19) teaching that man was to repent EIS (in order to obtain) the remission of sins.

Thus, forgiveness is received prior to baptism when the repenting heart converts to faith in God through Christ. Water baptism only points to this internal reality after the fact. The conscience made good before God prior to baptism is declared in baptism.

Your thoughts...Here's an interesting response to your Greek explanation:


In the first place, if Peter had any intention of separating "repent" from "be baptized", then he wouldn't have joined them both with the word AND. As far as the grammar goes, let's look at this verse and see what's going on here:

In English, we don't use many endings on our verbs. We add an '-s' or an '-es' to our third person singular verbs (I.E. I go, but he goes) and put an -ed on our regular past tense verbs (I.E. today I look, yesterday I looked), but that's about it. In many other languages, however, the system of endings is much more involved. Your verb endings have to be singular or plural to match their subjects, and Greek is no exception.

Peter was speaking to a group of people, so naturally, the word REPENT metanohsate (μετανοη'σατε) in Greek is plural. However, when he said "and be baptized", he added the words "every ONE of you". The Greek word for "every ONE" used here is hekastos ('έκαστος), and it naturally requires a singular form of the verb in Greek, since "every ONE" is singular, but the "of YOU" that immediately follows it is plural again! The "be baptized" part is only singular because Peter make a point of saying "every ONE" of you...it's simply a grammatical convention to use a singular verb with a singular noun, with no separation of commands intended or implied whatsoever. Zip, zilch, NADA!

Those of you who speak Spanish can plainly see this in the way Acts 2:38 is translated in the Spanish Bible, for it's handled exactly the same: we say "arrepentíos (plural) y bautícese cada uno (singular because "cada uno" is singular) DE VOSOTROS (back to plural again) para (notice--not "por") perdón de los pecados...." The "bautícese" part is singular only because cada UNO is singular---NOT because Peter was attempting to separate "be bapitzed" from "repent" and "forgiveness", using a singular verb so you'd jump over one section of what he said and link up with another. The writer of Acts (Luke) was simply using grammatically correct Greek!

To imply that Peter was tying repent and forgiveness together by some intentional grammatical link between repent and forgiveness, and that he was excluding baptism by using a singular verb with the "be baptized" part is so ludocrous and ridiculous that I'm practically standing mouth agape to think people would resort to this level of extremes in their process of grabbing for straws. I mean, really...is this the best they can do? Even a child can understand that "every ONE of you" is singular, and that it's the subject of the command "be baptized"--and even a child can understand that the word AND joins "repent" and "be baptized". You don't even have to look at the Greek to see that. http://www.goodnewscafe.net/forums/showpost.php?p=260519&postcount=264

mizpeh
12-24-2007, 05:48 PM
I think there may be confusion regarding this issue because of a neglect for specific doctrines that are taught in Scripture. Here's the break down as I understand it:

Justification: When one repents they are justified by faith before God based upon the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Being justified they can now come forward and receive Regeneration and Adoption.

Regeneration: Once one has repented of sins and has been justified before God they may now receive the Holy Ghost which begins the spiritual process known as regeneration. The believer's spirit is now given new life through the Power of the Holy Ghost.

Adoption: This takes place when the believer is baptized in Jesus name. By taking upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ through baptism they now become children of God. Baptism can be likened unto a covenantal step of obedience such as circumcision.

Sanctification: This is a life long process of perfecting holiness that begins at repentance and ends when the Lord calls the believer home.

The question has consistantly argued regarding at what point are sins remitted...when one repents or when one is baptized? The truth is both. One's sins cannot be remitted until they have both repented and been baptized. The entire process (repentance, water baptism, and infilling of the Holy Ghost) is interconnected and is vitally necessary for salvation.

To be saved one must:

Repent (be justified), be water baptized in Jesus name (adopted), receive the Holy Ghost (be regenerated), and live a life of holiness Christian disciplines (be sanctified).

All are absolutely essential.

Where did you get your definitions?

mizpeh
12-24-2007, 06:18 PM
When it is realized that Luke 24:47 very likely refers to preaching "repentance FOR the remission of sins" in Jesus' name, this passage can be used to further define Acts 2:38 and the relation of sin remission to repentance taught in it.


This is where it gets difficult because of the texts that are used and the disagreements on which is better expecially when the texts diverge as in this passage. The TR (Textus Receptus) and MT (Majority Text) agree and use 'kai' instead of 'eis' like the CT (Critical Text).


Textus Receptus

Luk 24:47 και And 2532 CONJ κηρυχθηναι should be preached 2784 V-APN επι in 1909 PREP τω 3588 T-DSN ονοματι name 3686 N-DSN αυτου his 846 P-GSM μετανοιαν that repentance 3341 N-ASF και and 2532 CONJ αφεσιν remission 859 N-ASF αμαρτιων of sins 266 N-GPF εις among 1519 PREP παντα all 3956 A-APN τα 3588 T-APN εθνη nations 1484 N-APN αρξαμενον beginning 756 V-AMP-NSN απο at 575 PREP ιερουσαλημ Jerusalem. 2419 N-PRI


Majority Text

Luk 24:47 καὶ κηρυχθῆναι ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι αὐτοῦ μετάνοιαν καὶ ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν εἰς πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, ἀρξάμενον ἀπὸ ῾Ιερουσαλήμ.

Hesetmefree238
12-24-2007, 06:53 PM
The very fact that God fills people with the Holy Ghost before they are baptized in Jesus name testifies to the fact that one is forgiven at repentance. God would not fill a person with his Spirit if He still held their
sins against them!

Adino
12-24-2007, 07:32 PM
The very fact that God fills people with the Holy Ghost before they are baptized in Jesus name testifies to the fact that one is forgiven at repentance. God would not fill a person with his Spirit if He still held their sins against them!Precisely, but this reality is ignored by many on this forum and in Oneness Pentecostalism in general.

Adino
12-24-2007, 07:36 PM
This is where it gets difficult because of the texts that are used and the disagreements on which is better expecially when the texts diverge as in this passage. The TR (Textus Receptus) and MT (Majority Text) agree and use 'kai' instead of 'eis' like the CT (Critical Text).


Textus Receptus

Luk 24:47 και And 2532 CONJ κηρυχθηναι should be preached 2784 V-APN επι in 1909 PREP τω 3588 T-DSN ονοματι name 3686 N-DSN αυτου his 846 P-GSM μετανοιαν that repentance 3341 N-ASF και and 2532 CONJ αφεσιν remission 859 N-ASF αμαρτιων of sins 266 N-GPF εις among 1519 PREP παντα all 3956 A-APN τα 3588 T-APN εθνη nations 1484 N-APN αρξαμενον beginning 756 V-AMP-NSN απο at 575 PREP ιερουσαλημ Jerusalem. 2419 N-PRI


Majority Text

Luk 24:47 καὶ κηρυχθῆναι ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι αὐτοῦ μετάνοιαν καὶ ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν εἰς πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, ἀρξάμενον ἀπὸ ῾Ιερουσαλήμ.
Completely, understood, Mizpeh.... which is why I made it a point to direct attention to the other places in Scripture where the phrase is "repentance EIS remission of sins." My question is more why the Nestle Aland text chose to remain consistent on the relation between repentance and forgiveness when the others did not.

Adino
12-24-2007, 08:02 PM
I agreed with almost everything you said up until this point.

Here's an interesting response to your Greek explanation:


In the first place, if Peter had any intention of separating "repent" from "be baptized", then he wouldn't have joined them both with the word AND. As far as the grammar goes, let's look at this verse and see what's going on here:

In English, we don't use many endings on our verbs. We add an '-s' or an '-es' to our third person singular verbs (I.E. I go, but he goes) and put an -ed on our regular past tense verbs (I.E. today I look, yesterday I looked), but that's about it. In many other languages, however, the system of endings is much more involved. Your verb endings have to be singular or plural to match their subjects, and Greek is no exception.

Peter was speaking to a group of people, so naturally, the word REPENT metanohsate (μετανοη'σατε) in Greek is plural. However, when he said "and be baptized", he added the words "every ONE of you". The Greek word for "every ONE" used here is hekastos ('έκαστος), and it naturally requires a singular form of the verb in Greek, since "every ONE" is singular, but the "of YOU" that immediately follows it is plural again! The "be baptized" part is only singular because Peter make a point of saying "every ONE" of you...it's simply a grammatical convention to use a singular verb with a singular noun, with no separation of commands intended or implied whatsoever. Zip, zilch, NADA!

Those of you who speak Spanish can plainly see this in the way Acts 2:38 is translated in the Spanish Bible, for it's handled exactly the same: we say "arrepentíos (plural) y bautícese cada uno (singular because "cada uno" is singular) DE VOSOTROS (back to plural again) para (notice--not "por") perdón de los pecados...." The "bautícese" part is singular only because cada UNO is singular---NOT because Peter was attempting to separate "be bapitzed" from "repent" and "forgiveness", using a singular verb so you'd jump over one section of what he said and link up with another. The writer of Acts (Luke) was simply using grammatically correct Greek!

To imply that Peter was tying repent and forgiveness together by some intentional grammatical link between repent and forgiveness, and that he was excluding baptism by using a singular verb with the "be baptized" part is so ludocrous and ridiculous that I'm practically standing mouth agape to think people would resort to this level of extremes in their process of grabbing for straws. I mean, really...is this the best they can do? Even a child can understand that "every ONE of you" is singular, and that it's the subject of the command "be baptized"--and even a child can understand that the word AND joins "repent" and "be baptized". You don't even have to look at the Greek to see that. http://www.goodnewscafe.net/forums/showpost.php?p=260519&postcount=264Your post does not prove the approach as implausible. In fact, Beisner raised the same 2nd person plural vs 3rd person singular argument to Urshan and Sabin on the Ankerburg show with Walter Martin and the point went unanswered. Beisner makes the point that Greek grammatical structure does not always follow the structural sequence we are accustomed to. The parenthetical insertion of baptism is certainly one way of looking at the verse.

Time and time again forgiveness is connected to repentance in Scripture. Repentance was FOR the remission of sins. Baptism was UNTO repentance. Baptism pointed to repentance and the spiritual realities which came in repentance. Baptism did not CAUSE these spiritual realities to exist. Too many passages speak of the conversion which brings forgiveness and righteousness as being "one of the heart." You said you agreed with this part of my first post, but apparently you do not.

Another issue with connecting the 3rd person singular "be baptized everyone of you" to the 2nd person plural "for the remission [of your] sins" is that it would mean that each individual was to be baptized for the remission of the groups sins.

All of you repent and let each of you be baptized for the remission of all of your [group] sins.

This is simply so "ludocrous [sic] and ridiculous that I'm practically standing mouth agape to think people would resort to this level of extremes in their process of grabbing for straws." :thumbsup

Apprehended
12-24-2007, 08:36 PM
DM, so one can be saved, but not go to Heaven?

Yes....

I might get my second warning from this answer but YES, it is possible to be saved and not go to heaven.

But then, from reading much of what is written on these forums, it appears to me that few people really understand what the word "saved" means. Seldom have I read so much ignorance.

The word saved means "delivered." I've seen many people that simply believed the Gospel, confessed their sins and were (delivered) saved (Gr. Sozo) from the power and load of sin as it rolled away at a tearful altar in many Baptist churches and other denominational churches in deep prayer and contrition from a life of sin.

My mother was a strong Apostolic woman. She said that she was "saved," in the Baptist church in 1932 when she was only 14 years old. Though very kind and sweet, she would have thought anyone a nut-ball lunatic if they were to try to convince her that she never experience the joy of deliverance (sozo) from sin when kneeling there so long ago.

My Grandmother was saved (delivered, sozo) from the power of sin in an old time shouting Methodist church. You could have never convinced her that she did not experience the load and power of sin lifted off of her burdened soul.

This one will probably get me banned. If so, I've enjoyed talking with you all.

Joelel
12-24-2007, 08:36 PM
Remission or forgiveness of sins is in the word obeying and continuing in the word and light.We must always connect being saved with forgiveness of sins.If your saved your forgiven and if your forgiven your saved.Jesus is the word or blood,if you continue in Jesus the word the blood your forgiven and saved.All the truth of the new testament is the blood of Jesus.The blood is in the word when we obey.

Matt.26
[28] For this is my blood of the new testament(covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

1Cor.015:001 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel (truth) which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 015:002By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

We are saved by regeneration of the Holy Ghost.Keep in mind if were saved were forgiven.
Tit.3
[5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

We confess in water.
Matt.3
[6] And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

1John.1
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1John.1
[7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
John8:31. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;32. And ye shall know the truth (word) , and the truth shall make you free.


1 Tim.004:016Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; (teachings,word,Truth) continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Adino
12-24-2007, 08:57 PM
Remission or forgiveness of sins is in the word obeying and continuing in the word and light.We must always connect being saved with forgiveness of sins.If your saved your forgiven and if your forgiven your saved.Jesus is the word or blood,if you continue in Jesus the word the blood your forgiven and saved.All the truth of the new testament is the blood of Jesus.The blood is in the word when we obey.

Matt.26
[28] For this is my blood of the new testament(covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

1Cor.015:001 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel (truth) which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 015:002By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

We are saved by regeneration of the Holy Ghost.Keep in mind if were saved were forgiven.
Tit.3
[5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

We confess in water.
Matt.3
[6] And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

1John.1
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1John.1
[7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
John8:31. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;32. And ye shall know the truth (word) , and the truth shall make you free.


1 Tim.004:016Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; (teachings,word,Truth) continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.I do not see 1John 1:9 as a verse dealing with a saved person confessing sins. One who is saved has the imputation of righteousness perpetually as long as he continues to believe. We "walk in the light" of the truth of the Gospel and his blood perpetually cleanses us.

1John was written to saved persons and to gnostics who had crept into the crowd. These gnostics refused to believe that anything they did could effect their spiritual soul. John was calling on them to recognize their depravity and confess.

Joelel
12-24-2007, 09:13 PM
I do not see 1John 1:9 as a verse dealing with a saved person confessing sins. One who is saved has the imputation of righteousness perpetually as long as he continues to believe. We "walk in the light" of the truth of the Gospel and his blood perpetually cleanses us.

1John was written to saved persons and to gnostics who had crept into the crowd. These gnostics refused to believe that anything they did could effect their spiritual soul. John was calling on them to recognize their depravity and confess.

I was showing how we are saved and forgiven and stay saved and forgiven by continuing in the word and light.If we don't continue in Jesus the word we are not saved and forgiven and the blood can't be applied..

Adino
12-24-2007, 09:19 PM
I was showing how we are saved and forgiven and stay saved and forgiven by continuing in the word and light.If we don't continue in Jesus the word we are not saved and forgiven and the blood can'y be applied..As long as we realize the light we continue in is the acceptance of Christ. It is faith in Christ which perpetuates our right standing and not the performance of baptism or the manifestation of tongues.

Our standing continually rests ON HIM and not on the things we do as an outcropping of our having been saved.

Have a Merry Christmas, friend!

mizpeh
12-25-2007, 06:39 AM
Completely, understood, Mizpeh.... which is why I made it a point to direct attention to the other places in Scripture where the phrase is "repentance EIS remission of sins." My question is more why the Nestle Aland text chose to remain consistent on the relation between repentance and forgiveness when the others did not.


In those verses you leave out an important aspect of repentance for the remission of sins .....baptism. It was called the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. These folks coming to John the Baptist confessed their sins and were baptized. Mark 1:5 What I'm trying to say is they were not only repenting apart from baptism as in Acts 2:28 but they were being baptized unto repentance for the remission of sins. Matt 3:11 Water baptism was a necessary ingredient.

The phrase “repentance and remission of sins” in the Nestle Aland Greek version of Luke 24:47 is “metanoia eis aphesis” which is everywhere else interpreted “repentance FOR (EIS) the remission of sins.”


Mark 1:4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for (eis) the remission of sins.
Luke 3:3
And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for (eis) the remission of sins;
John’s baptism pointed to repentance which was FOR the remission of sins.

You cannot find "preached through faith in the name of Jesus" in Acts 10:43. That is you interpretation of what it says. I would say that "through his name whosoever believeth in him" means exactly what it say...the name of Jesus is somehow involved in the remission of sins. And I suggest it is when we call on his name at water baptism as Paul was commanded to do in Acts 22:16 that we invoke the Spirit of Christ to perform a spiritual circumcision in our hearts.

There is strong evidence to suggest that Luke 24:47 teaches that “repentance FOR (EIS) the remission of sins” was to be preached through faith in the name of Jesus!


Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
The repenting heart returning to God via faith in Jesus Christ absolutely SHALL receive the remission / forgiveness of sins.

Brother Price
12-25-2007, 07:16 AM
So God will dwell in an unclean vessel? Someone who has not been baptized in still considered unclean, so God may fill them with the Spirit, though they still have sin in their lives.

Sorry, but two and two does not add up here.

mizpeh
12-25-2007, 10:06 AM
Someone who believes in Christ and repents is no longer walking in darkness. They are no longer actively walking in sin. The proof of repentance (a change of heart) is a person who doesn't do the sinful works they did before they repented. They are accepted with God. His grace and my faith and repentance are enough to bring me into fellowship with God.

But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:35

Is there forgiveness that comes with repentance or only with baptism? Well, I know for sure remission of sins comes with baptism, that is forgiveness, a literal washing away and cleansing of our hearts, a spiritual circumcision.

Are we saved if we don't have this circumcision? I don't think so. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

But does our relationship change with God when we believe and repent? Definitely! What is that change? Our way of thinking changes which is seen by a change in how we act. Although I'm not sure how our standing "positionally" with God is changed, I do know it is enough of a change to warrant God filling us with his Spirit.

Brother Price
12-25-2007, 10:14 AM
The scriptures declare that if we confess our sins, HE is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Repentance comes from a godly sorrow when we confess our sins. I have yet to meet a sinner who confesses their sins who does not repent at the same time.

Joelel
12-25-2007, 04:10 PM
As long as we realize the light we continue in is the acceptance of Christ. It is faith in Christ which perpetuates our right standing and not the performance of baptism or the manifestation of tongues.

Our standing continually rests ON HIM and not on the things we do as an outcropping of our having been saved.

Have a Merry Christmas, friend!

Nope,The scripture teaches walking in the light is love and keeping his commandments.If we love and keep his commandments only then can the blood cleanse us from sin.The blood is applied in keeping his word.That includes believing,repenting,being baptized,being filled with the Holy Ghost,loving,keeping his commandments,all of his teachings.You see we are saved by faith.Truth of God's word gives faith.

1 John 1:[4] And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
[5] This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
[6] If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
[7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

2:[1] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
[2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
[6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
[7] Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
[8] Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
[9] He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
[10] He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
[11] But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

Adino
12-25-2007, 09:26 PM
You cannot find "preached through faith in the name of Jesus" in Acts 10:43. That is you interpretation of what it says. Uh,... no. I was speaking of Luke 24:47.

Luke 24:47

And that repentance [eis] remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

If you want to know where I get "through faith in his name" as an understanding for "preached in his name" then go to Acts 3:16 which states:

And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.And then to Acts 13:38-39....

Acts 13:38-39

Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

We can now go to Acts 10:43....

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Faith comes by hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17). Those who hear the word of God, understand with their heart and are converted to Christ absolutely ARE forgiven (Isaiah 6:10; Matthew 13:15; Mark 4:11-12; John 12:37-40; and Acts 28:23-29). Whoever converts..... receives forgiveness (Acts 10:43).

My point concerning Acts 10:43 was...
The repenting heart returning to God via faith in Jesus Christ absolutely SHALL receive the remission / forgiveness of sins.I stand by this statement because it is absolutley true.

Praxeas
12-25-2007, 09:29 PM
So God will dwell in an unclean vessel? Someone who has not been baptized in still considered unclean, so God may fill them with the Spirit, though they still have sin in their lives.

Sorry, but two and two does not add up here.
BP...in the OT where the believers forgiven? If so how? Were all believers in the OT filled with God's Spirit?

Adino
12-25-2007, 09:58 PM
But does our relationship change with God when we believe and repent? Definitely! What is that change? Our way of thinking changes which is seen by a change in how we act. Although I'm not sure how our standing "positionally" with God is changed, I do know it is enough of a change to warrant God filling us with his Spirit.Mizpeh, it is apparent you are greatly confused on these matters if you do not understand our "positional" status with God prior to baptism. We have begun to debate on other threads and you have left me hanging on several occasions. All your concerns have been answered in our past discussions. It is apparent you have either ignored my posts completely or simply choose to deny certain spiritual realities which are obviously present prior to being dunked.

You have chosen to make water baptism, which is a proof of repentance, a causal factor of sin remission when, in fact, it is not a "proof of repentance" which brings forgiveness but repentance itself. Baptism was an act which bore witness to a repentant heart. It bore witness to a repentant heart which had converted to Jesus Christ. Meaning, baptism bore witness to the repentant heart which had accepted the truth that Jesus Christ had taken care of our sin and that God had FORGIVEN us because of Christ's sacrifice. It was "of/unto repentance for the remission of sins." It declared repentance, a repentance for the remission of sins.

Scripture teaches again and again that the forgiveness of the cross is received in repentance. It does not teach that forgiveness comes in a "PROOF OF REPENTANCE" such as baptism.

Adino
12-25-2007, 10:10 PM
Nope,The scripture teaches walking in the light is love and keeping his commandments.If we love and keep his commandments only then can the blood cleanse us from sin.The blood is applied in keeping his word.That includes believing,repenting,being baptized,being filled with the Holy Ghost,loving,keeping his commandments,all of his teachings.You see we are saved by faith.Truth of God's word gives faith.

1 John 1:[4] And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
[5] This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
[6] If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
[7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

2:[1] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
[2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
[6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
[7] Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
[8] Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
[9] He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
[10] He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
[11] But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.There you are back in 1John again. I thought I told you already that 1John deals with gnostic heresy. The light of the Gospel of Christ is the light John is trying to get the heretics to walk in. The gnostics did not believe anything of the physical world could effect their spiritual status, because they believed all matter was evil. They had a skewed view of the depravity of man and because of this skewed view had rejected the idea that Jesus had risen physically. They simply did not believe. He wanted them to walk in the light of the Gospel truth of Christ (1John 3:23; 4:15; 5:1-21). The commandment of God was to believe (1John 3:23).

Ronzo
12-25-2007, 11:02 PM
There you are back in 1John again. I thought I told you already that 1John deals with gnostic heresy. The light of the Gospel of Christ is the light John is trying to get the heretics to walk in. The gnostics did not believe anything of the physical world could effect their spiritual status, because they believed all matter was evil. They had a skewed view of the depravity of man and because of this skewed view had rejected the idea that Jesus had risen physically. They simply did not believe. He wanted them to walk in the light of the Gospel truth of Christ (1John 3:23; 4:15; 5:1-21). The commandment of God was to believe (1John 3:23).
But Adino, everyone knows we can't interpret scripture through context, culture, or history. We can only take it literally at face value with no other filters whatsoever.

*wink*

mizpeh
12-26-2007, 04:06 AM
My point concerning Acts 10:43 was...
I stand by this statement because it is absolutley true.

I agree with your statement as well:

The repenting heart returning to God via faith in Jesus Christ absolutely SHALL receive the remission / forgiveness of sins.

I don't agree with you on 'when' remission of sins happens.


]If you want to know where I get "through faith in his name" as an understanding for "preached in his name" then go to Acts 3:16 which states:
These terms are not synonomous. But preaching the gospel, the message of peace with God, that Jesus brought does brings faith and that faith in Jesus with the name of Jesus being invoked brings healing. Maybe that's what you saying but it didn't read that way in your other post that I responded to.

mizpeh
12-26-2007, 04:33 AM
Mizpeh, it is apparent you are greatly confused on these matters if you do not understand our "positional" status with God prior to baptism. We have begun to debate on other threads and you have left me hanging on several occasions. All your concerns have been answered in our past discussions. It is apparent you have either ignored my posts completely or simply choose to deny certain spiritual realities which are obviously present prior to being dunked.I'll look back at your prior posts now that I have more time and am not taking a class this semester.

I thought I made it clear there are certain spiritual realities which are present before water baptism but I don't believe remission of sins is not one of them. I've been thinking about some things Praxeas said on another thread about our position with God after repentance in regards to forgiveness and justification. I haven't come to a conclusion yet. I sense a certain disdain when you use the word, dunk, for baptism.

You have chosen to make water baptism, which is a proof of repentance, a causal factor of sin remission when, in fact, it is not a "proof of repentance" which brings forgiveness but repentance itself.
I didn't say water baptism was a proof of repentance.
Repentance and water baptism being remission of sins. I have chosen to make water baptism a causal factor in the remission of sins because I believe the Bible teaches that it is.


Baptism was an act which bore witness to a repentant heart. It bore witness to a repentant heart which had converted to Jesus Christ. Meaning, baptism bore witness to the repentant heart which had accepted the truth that Jesus Christ had taken care of our sin and that God had FORGIVEN us because of Christ's sacrifice. I agree that baptism is an act which bears witness to a repentant heart. God FORGIVES because of Christ's sacrifice. Why do you put the word, forgive, in the past tense, forgiven? Sins aren't forgiven until there is confession and repentance. And, yes, it is Christ's sacrificial atonenment on the cross that affords us this forgiveness.

It was "of/unto repentance for the remission of sins." It declared repentance, a repentance for the remission of sinsAre you speaking of the baptism of John?

Scripture teaches again and again that the forgiveness of the cross is received in repentance. It does not teach that forgiveness comes in a "PROOF OF REPENTANCE" such as baptism.Please show me where I said baptism was a proof of repentance. I don't recall writing that. I think maybe the words you use confuse me. "forgiveness of the cross" is one of them. I would say "the forgiveness that comes from the cross of Christ". Are we saying the same thing here? In my mind we aren't but maybe I'm being picky on wording when I shouldn't be. :christmoose

Brother Price
12-26-2007, 04:47 AM
I continued in this thread long enough to prove to me that my sins were remitted before the waters of baptism. I have read the actual scriptures put forth, and even studied the original Greek some to see that the Blood is applied at repentance of and confession of sins.

Scripture after scripture declares the necessity of water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, but not for salvation. Scripture has been shown repeatedly that baptism is because of salvation, a commandment for all believers. It cannot be for salvation because that would relegate salvation to a work, yes, even of the Law.

Here is a final thought. For me to be able to say that God will save the dying at repentance, but not us who are alive and healthy would make the Lord a respecter of persons. No way would God show mercy to one and not to all.

Thanks to all for the great discussion. It has bolstered this change in my life.

Sincerely,
William Price

Adino
12-26-2007, 05:44 AM
Mizpeh, you just said:
I didn't say water baptism was a proof of repentance
Then you just turned around and said:
I agree that baptism is an act which bears witness to a repentant heart.Please make up your mind.

Off to work. Catch you later.

berkeley
12-26-2007, 09:54 AM
I continued in this thread long enough to prove to me that my sins were remitted before the waters of baptism. I have read the actual scriptures put forth, and even studied the original Greek some to see that the Blood is applied at repentance of and confession of sins.

Scripture after scripture declares the necessity of water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, but not for salvation. Scripture has been shown repeatedly that baptism is because of salvation, a commandment for all believers. It cannot be for salvation because that would relegate salvation to a work, yes, even of the Law.

Here is a final thought. For me to be able to say that God will save the dying at repentance, but not us who are alive and healthy would make the Lord a respecter of persons. No way would God show mercy to one and not to all.

Thanks to all for the great discussion. It has bolstered this change in my life.

Sincerely,
William Price
I think you are being emotional.

mizpeh
12-26-2007, 10:19 AM
Mizpeh, you just said:

Then you just turned around and said:
Please make up your mind.

Off to work. Catch you later.

You put quotation marks around the phrase "proof of repentance" as though I had said those words verbatim when I had been talking about repentance with works meet for repentance. I wasn't even thinking about baptism at the time. But, sure, only someone who believes will obey the gospel and be baptized for the remission of sins. I disagree with those who say baptism is a good work we do to earn heaven.

Apprehended
12-26-2007, 05:13 PM
The very title of this thread is sooooo.....
eh...what's the word that I am looking for????

It suggests that if you go to God sorrowfully pleading for forgiviness of sins, promising not to continue in those sins...God will say, "Forgive you? Not a chance. Get out of my sight you filthy dog."

I'm still trying to think of the word that would best fit this attitude among some.

Anyway, some people serve a Trinity God. Some serve Buddah. Some serve Allah. Some serve a Tyrannical God who seems to glory in holding everyone's sins against them until they get the "formula" exactly right.

Now what is the word I'm looking for? Whatever the word might be, doubtfully few would be attracted to such a one.

Adino
12-26-2007, 06:00 PM
LOL... Apprehended, dude, what are you talking about?

Apprehended
12-26-2007, 06:36 PM
LOL... Apprehended, dude, what are you talking about?

:jolly

Kind of complicated, huh? :D

Truly Blessed
12-26-2007, 09:33 PM
Saved, and then baptized in water and with the Holy Ghost. That's what I was taught growing up in a Full Gospel Church. After 40 years of searching the Scriptures for myself, I've found nothing to convince me that the Bible teaches anything different. Identity with Jesus Christ in water baptism and the anointing of the Holy Ghost is for those who by grace through faith have become a child of God. I appreciate what Adino has been posting here.

RandyWayne
12-26-2007, 11:04 PM
Saved, and then baptized in water and with the Holy Ghost. That's what I was taught growing up in a Full Gospel Church. After 40 years of searching the Scriptures for myself, I've found nothing to convince me that the Bible teaches anything different. Identity with Jesus Christ in water baptism and the anointing of the Holy Ghost is for those who by grace through faith have become a child of God. I appreciate what Adino has been posting here.

Amen.

Apprehended
12-27-2007, 08:42 AM
[QUOTE=Truly Blessed;337564]

Saved,

Of course. When all sin is rolled away at an altar in deep contrition for those sins, calling on the name of the Lord to deliver from both the presence and power of sin, one is truly "saved," from that burden of guilt. This is true by the very definiton of the word "saved." This is only the beginning of repentance..

and then baptized in water

Yes, indeed. After one is truly "saved" from sin, its guilt, power and presence, then of course there is the natural progression to water in the name of Jesus.

and with the Holy Ghost.

After one is saved from the burden of sin, one is promised through faith the baptism of Spirit.

Saved, then water and Spirit baptized seems to me to be the message of Acts 2:38. Indeed, that was what I was taught too. Seems right to me.

If sins guilt and stain is not removed until one is actually water baptized in the name of Jesus, then what good is the washing of water by the WORD? How is it possible that thousands and yea, millions are filled with the precious holy Ghost even before a TOE is baptized in water in the name of Jesus.

Millions of Trinitarians have been filled...my wife was one of them. She would consider someone a rank idiot that would try to tell her that she did not have the Holy Ghost before she went to the water in the name of Jesus...which she did when she saw the light of it.

The hard-core three steppers who insist on a "formula," standing strictly on their interpretation of Acts 2:38 cannot allow for someone to be filled with step three before step two. But the grace of God has proven them wrong millions of times as evidenced by the millions who have received step three before step two.

My bible speaks of those who form the formulas. First they will give you a three step formula. Next, they will give you a baptismal formula for the infilling of the Holy Ghost. Then they will give you a formula for the manner of living...most of which is debated within their own formula building ranks. My bible speaks of those who have a FORM(ula) of godliness...

But, even according to Acts 2:38, the first word in "the formula" is REPENT...step one according to them. Even this word is terribly misunderstood, thinking that it is a one time trip to the altar. Not so! Repentance is more than just a one time change of mind or direction in life. Many who have "repented" returned to their old lifestyle even after having received the Holy Ghost, proving that they had not repented in the beginning. Repentance is a PERMANENT turning toward God from the world...a lifestyle that must be practiced DAILY.

So, the hard-core "formula" as formulated in the minds of "form of godliness" folk have proven to be wrong due to their own interpretation of Acts 2:38. I've said it before and bears repeating. Acts 2:38 is neither the beginning of SALVATION nor is it the end.

Truly Blessed
12-27-2007, 11:07 AM
[QUOTE]

Of course. When all sin is rolled away at an altar in deep contrition for those sins, calling on the name of the Lord to deliver from both the presence and power of sin, one is truly "saved," from that burden of guilt. This is true by the very definiton of the word "saved." This is only the beginning of repentance..



Yes, indeed. After one is truly "saved" from sin, its guilt, power and presence, then of course there is the natural progression to water in the name of Jesus.



After one is saved from the burden of sin, one is promised through faith the baptism of Spirit.

Saved, then water and Spirit baptized seems to me to be the message of Acts 2:38. Indeed, that was what I was taught too. Seems right to me.

If sins guilt and stain is not removed until one is actually water baptized in the name of Jesus, then what good is the washing of water by the WORD? How is it possible that thousands and yea, millions are filled with the precious holy Ghost even before a TOE is baptized in water in the name of Jesus.

Millions of Trinitarians have been filled...my wife was one of them. She would consider someone a rank idiot that would try to tell her that she did not have the Holy Ghost before she went to the water in the name of Jesus...which she did when she saw the light of it.

The hard-core three steppers who insist on a "formula," standing strictly on their interpretation of Acts 2:38 cannot allow for someone to be filled with step three before step two. But the grace of God has proven them wrong millions of times as evidenced by the millions who have received step three before step two.

My bible speaks of those who form the formulas. First they will give you a three step formula. Next, they will give you a baptismal formula for the infilling of the Holy Ghost. Then they will give you a formula for the manner of living...most of which is debated within their own formula building ranks. My bible speaks of those who have a FORM(ula) of godliness...

But, even according to Acts 2:38, the first word in "the formula" is REPENT...step one according to them. Even this word is terribly misunderstood, thinking that it is a one time trip to the altar. Not so! Repentance is more than just a one time change of mind or direction in life. Many who have "repented" returned to their old lifestyle even after having received the Holy Ghost, proving that they had not repented in the beginning. Repentance is a PERMANENT turning toward God from the world...a lifestyle that must be practiced DAILY.

So, the hard-core "formula" as formulated in the minds of "form of godliness" folk have proven to be wrong due to their own interpretation of Acts 2:38. I've said it before and bears repeating. Acts 2:38 is neither the beginning of SALVATION nor is it the end.

As one who was baptized with the Holy Ghost before I was baptized, I too have a problem with someone who would want me to believe God gave the earnest of my inheritance before I even became His child or before my sins were even forgiven.

Apprehended
12-27-2007, 12:26 PM
As one who was baptized with the Holy Ghost before I was baptized, I too have a problem with someone who would want me to believe God gave the earnest of my inheritance before I even became His child or before my sins were even forgiven.

Good thought, indeed...

1. Since the scriptures cannot lie...

2. Since the Holy Ghost is given to them that obey Him...(Acts 5:32)

3. Since many have received HGB before water baptism...

4. Since God will not live in an unclean temple...

Who would be the most likely candidate for error:

1. Jesus?

2. Apostles?

3. The Word of God?

4. Rev. Freddie Frack Foggybottom and his interpretation of Acts 2:38 who disagrees with all three above? Never mind. Since he has a "formula" according to his own proud interpretation of Acts 2:38, (step one, step two and then step three) he cannot be wrong in his own mind.

I had a very interesting experience that I shall never forget. I became acquainted with a really "on fire" young man that had the Holy Ghost and seems to have a deep burden for the lost.

One day he says to me, "Let's go win some souls today." I was in very much agreement with that. Since he was very much experienced in that department, I thought that I would just tag along and observe. We went everywhere "winning souls."

We visited Malls, Parks and hospitals "winning souls" everwhere we went. He was really bold and on fire. He did not let anything stop him from approaching people and even backing them up into a corner if need be.

At the end of the day, he counted 17 souls (if I remember correctly) that was "won" to the Lord. In each case, it was a short witness of Jesus, a confession of faith and a sinner's prayer that followed. Each case was a cold and almost mechanical response some of which I believe was done just to get rid of the guy. Though he counted 17, I have my doubts on all but one...But then, I am no judge of the other 16.

This one, I shall never forget. We met this young couple in the park. After leading them through the sinners' prayer, the young lady went into a deep travail as her boyfriend watched. At first her very appearance was dark so obviously deeply stained with sin. As she prayed and asked God to forgive her, she lit up like a light bulb. Seldom have I seen such an obvious transformation upon her countenance. There was a witness in my soul that the stone was rolled away, she came forth a new creature in Christ. No, she did not received the Holy Ghost as evidenced by other tongues, but she had a deep genuine experience of salvation in the park. We spend more than two hours with her, being much longer than any of the rest. There was no doubt or question in regards to her conversion which was deep and genuine.

Now, was the girl saved?

Yes, in one sense of the word. She was delivered (saved/sozo) from the presence and power of sin. She was deeply and brightly converted.

In another sense of the word, NO! In that sense, neither are you and I "saved." Jesus said, "He that ENDURETH unto the end, the same shall be saved." Her end did not come in the park. We have not yet endured unto the end. Not everyone that left Egypt entered in.

I think that if we were to understand a few definitions, there would be much less misunderstandings...