View Full Version : UPC church distributes prayer altars: Good idea or future garage sale piece?
Prayer power: Pastor hopes homemade altars encourage good habits for New Year
By GLENN EVANS (gevans@longview-news.com)
Monday, December 31, 2007
GLADEWATER — An altar call seemed a good way to get ready for 2008 at one local church Sunday, when members of Abundant Life United Pentecostal Church distributed the first of 100 handmade prayer altars.
"What better way to position ourselves but to go into this new year repositioning ourselves to prayer," the Rev. Michael McGuire said, shortly before a Sunday night communion service that concluded with members and visitors invited to take home a gift filled with the mystery and promise of prayer.
http://img.coxnewsweb.com/B/06/95/02/image_6402956.jpg (http://www.news-journal.com/news/content/news/stories/2007/12/31/3395673_1231altars.html)
Members of the Abundant Life Temple in Gladewater stand behind altars Sunday. The altars will be distributed to families so they can have their own personal place to pray in their homes.
Seventy short benches, or altars, filled nearly every spare aisle space in the Gladewater sanctuary, lighter wooden sides supporting camel-colored seats. The altars were patterned after one that late church member Dan Moody Watson kept in his home for decades.
"He said, 'That's where me and Mama talk to God,' " McGuire recalled Watson, who was buried in overalls with a little, red New Testament tucked into a pocket.
"The altar itself, we recognize, is just a piece of furniture. If we've got a place for our car, if we've got a place for clothes, if we've got a place for food — we don't really have a place in our homes that is set aside exclusively for prayer. If they will see the altar in the home, they will be prompted to prayer. I hope this will catch on and churches in this area will be prompted to do the same thing. Everything we believe in starts with prayer."
McGuire had been inspired by the simple object when he conducted Watson's funeral, where it took a prominent position beside the casket.
Watson's son, John, brought the original with him to church Sunday.
"It was pretty much the center of our home," he said, describing it as the place his father and mother, Mary Jane, would turn for guidance from above.
"Instead of trying to figure out something by himself, he would go to that altar first. This was a man that was very simple, and yet who felt impressed to do this."
McGuire challenged the assembly of about 140 people to start a wave of prayer that could cover the area as more join.
"I believe we can raise up a wall of prayer, like a standard at every home," McGuire said. "It's time that America wake up and realized there's power in prayer. East Texas needs a revival and an outpouring of the blessings of God.
http://www.news-journal.com/news/content/news/stories/2007/12/31/12312007_altars.html
----------------------------
Thoughts, comments, ideas???
seguidordejesus
12-30-2007, 11:54 PM
Wow, I was in that church about a month ago.
RevDWW
12-30-2007, 11:55 PM
Are you now coming out for selling your altar and as well as tossing out the baptismal tank? :doh
Are you now coming out for selling your altar and as well as tossing out the baptismal tank? :doh
Just asking whether or not it will get the intended response? Or will it just become ornate furniture in the homes of some ... next to the dusty bible?
BoredOutOfMyMind
12-31-2007, 12:00 AM
Wow, I was in that church about a month ago.
Just asking whether or not it will get the intended response? Or will it just become ornate furniture in the homes of some ... next to the dusty bible?
Let us hope not? Family altars are good. :praying
Buy a prayer alter as prayed over by Pastor so and so..
And receive the answer to your prayers for a lifetime.
Your cost $$$$$$
Buy a prayer alter as prayed over by Pastor so and so..
And receive the answer to your prayers for a lifetime.
Your cost $$$$$$
Hmmmm ... the article doesn't say if they were distributed for free or for a fee .... Are you suggesting this was nothing more than a fund raiser???
J-Roc
12-31-2007, 12:51 AM
With advertisers leading the charge willing to spend millions and millions on advertisements (Newspaper, internet, TV, billboards, flyers, etc.) knowing very well they can bank on the power of suggestion, it just seems that this is a neat way to remind people to pray...if the power of suggestion works through this, then great. After all they did say:
"If they will see the altar in the home, they will be prompted to prayer. I hope this will catch on and churches in this area will be prompted to do the same thing. Everything we believe in starts with prayer."
However, I think it takes a lot more than just the power of suggestion to get folks to habitually set a time for prayer.
Hmmmm ... the article doesn't say if they were distributed for free or for a fee .... Are you suggesting this was nothing more than a fund raiser???
I wonder. It would not surprise me...
PastorD
12-31-2007, 01:11 AM
You know better than that. This is not a fundraiser.
Trouvere
12-31-2007, 02:20 AM
I have an altar bench in my home.It was given to me out of the church where I began in ministry.I love that bench it reminds me of good things.When they remodeled they also asked me if I wanted the pulpit but it was too big to cart to Florida so I declined.I am sorry now.I could get a big mirror and put it on the wall in front of it and preach at myself.I need all the preaching I can get.I also need all the praying I can get.To be honest looking at the altars they were giving out I wouldn't mind having one.French Acadians have had these in their homes for years.You can go to some of our tourist places like Vermillionville in Lafayette,La and see what an Acadian village is like and each house has a prayer bench and kneeler.
scotty
12-31-2007, 05:59 AM
I too doubt it was a fundraiser, if so then shame on them.
It looks like a good idea, he is right when he says we make room in our homes for everything else, why not to pray.
Buy a prayer alter as prayed over by Pastor so and so..
And receive the answer to your prayers for a lifetime.
Your cost $$$$$$
Hmmmm ... the article doesn't say if they were distributed for free or for a fee .... Are you suggesting this was nothing more than a fund raiser???
Garage sale piece?! Fundraiser?!
Oh please...can you two not find anything positive that those affiliated with the UPCI might do?!
I see many things wrong with the org, but grow weary of the constant attempt to make light of everything coming down the Pike.
Let us hope it accomplishes the desired intent of the pastor.
Whole Hearted
12-31-2007, 07:38 AM
I think it is a good idea.
rgcraig
12-31-2007, 08:06 AM
Maybe this idea is the answer to RKSmith's relentless cry............
PRAYER is the healer!
Reminds me of a sign outside a church which said something like
A family altar
can alter your family.
Garage sale piece?! Fundraiser?!
Oh please...can you two not find anything positive that those affiliated with the UPCI might do?!
I see many things wrong with the org, but grow weary of the constant attempt to make light of everything coming down the Pike.
Let us hope it accomplishes the desired intent of the pastor.
Huh ... this has nothing to do w/ the org ... Barb ....
It's a human interest story ... that I thought would appeal to the forum.
Unweary, thyself.
Huh ... this has nothing to do w/ the org ... Barb ....
It's a human interest story ... that I thought would appeal to the forum.
Unweary, thyself.
It is a human interest story, but your thread title and the post I quoted seemed to be nitpicking again.
If I misjudged, forgive me, but one can only go by what they read.
Maybe this idea is the answer to RKSmith's relentless cry............
PRAYER is the healer!
Amen!! :star
OneAccord
12-31-2007, 08:55 AM
Yeah, I got a comment. When did we become so cynical? Sure, much has been done in the name of religion that were, in reality, fund raising projects. Kinda like the books, tapes and DVDs preachers are selling. "My latest book will change your life". "This DVD will make you a brand new YOU". If I bought every book and tape that they promise "will change my life", I wonder who I'd be now?
But, gee... its seems we have have become Doubting Thomases about... well, about everything. Are we are a part of crowd standing back judging the works of Jesus, or are we thronging Him, seeking His touch? A preacher distributes altars... and we start lookin' for the money angle. "Whats his hidden agenda...his REAL motive"? I think the brother has a good idea, but, sadly, unless it is in the hearts of people to pray, giving them an altar bench won't cause them to pray. But...it is a start. It is an effort. Jesus healed on the Sabbath. Some sought His touch, some listened to His Words. Another group stood back and asked, "Should He be doin that on the Sabbath? Whats He up to anyway?" I wonder, given all of our doubt and cynisim of all things religious, I wonder which group we'd be in?
rgcraig
12-31-2007, 09:04 AM
One Accord - good post!
I know many churches have removed the altar's completely out of the sanctuary, yet they wonder what the problems are in their churches.
Just showing up for church isn't enough! Praying at home, then briging that prayer already with you to church makes a difference!
freeatlast
12-31-2007, 09:10 AM
My altar in my home is my lazy boy recliner...it is very multi functional..I can sit there and take in a great game...like the NE Patriots going 16-) for theier season the other night.
I read my bible in that chair, then go into nap mode.
And I kneel there for wonderful times of prayer too.
The church altar sounds like something veery meaningful to that local congregation, considering they had such a wonderful member who had such a wonderful story about their own family altar.
My altar in my home is my lazy boy recliner...it is very multi functional..I can sit there and take in a great game...like the NE Patriots going 16-) for theier season the other night.
I read my bible in that chair, then go into nap mode.
And I kneel there for wonderful times of prayer too.
The church altar sounds like something veery meaningful to that local congregation, considering they had such a wonderful member who had such a wonderful story about their own family altar.
Yet, sometimes we try to freeze a moment in time ... take a snapshot of a wonderful experience for one or a group, clone it, and expect it to work for all time in all instances, Free. Kinda of like how we've packaged God's holiness.
It worked for him ... like the Lazyboy works for you.
My dad had a big cushion he'd use ... I love to walk and pray.
The pastor would do more to model, preach and teach prayer at every chance he can get, like Dad did, rather than try to package it ....
Sure it's a neat visual reminder ... but, IMO, it takes more than a crucifix or a prayer altar to internalize the Gospel, however.
If it's not internalized the relic is meaningless.
rgcraig
12-31-2007, 09:27 AM
Yet, sometimes we try to freeze a moment in time ... take a snapshot of a wonderful experience for one or a group, clone it, and expect it to work for all time in all instances, Free. Kinda of like how we've packaged God's holiness.
It worked for him ... like the Lazyboy works for you.
My dad had a big cushion he'd use ... I love to walk and pray.
The pastor would do more to model, preach and teach prayer at every chance he can get, like Dad did, rather than try to package it ....
Sure it's a neat visual reminder ... but, IMO, it takes more than a crucifix or a prayer altar to internalize the Gospel, however.
If it's not internalized the relic is meaningless.
How do you know that he hasn't? He could have been teaching on it and using the first of the year/altar as a physical mark of change and challenge.
It does seem now that you posted this to criticize.
How do you know that he hasn't? He could have been teaching on it and using the first of the year/altar as a physical mark of change and challenge.
It does seem now that you posted this to criticize.
I don't know if he hasn't ... and did not claim he hasn't ....
and again, as stated before, I think it's a good visual reminder ...
I simply question if it will be effective if not re-inforced by other structures... based on my own observations of our human nature ....
If that's negative criticism ... then we should scrap our opinions on all programs, efforts, ideas folks have ...
Newman
12-31-2007, 09:31 AM
Prayer power: Pastor hopes homemade altars encourage good habits for New Year
By GLENN EVANS (gevans@longview-news.com)
Monday, December 31, 2007
GLADEWATER — An altar call seemed a good way to get ready for 2008 at one local church Sunday, when members of Abundant Life United Pentecostal Church distributed the first of 100 handmade prayer altars.
"What better way to position ourselves but to go into this new year repositioning ourselves to prayer," the Rev. Michael McGuire said, shortly before a Sunday night communion service that concluded with members and visitors invited to take home a gift filled with the mystery and promise of prayer.
http://img.coxnewsweb.com/B/06/95/02/image_6402956.jpg (http://www.news-journal.com/news/content/news/stories/2007/12/31/3395673_1231altars.html)
Members of the Abundant Life Temple in Gladewater stand behind altars Sunday. The altars will be distributed to families so they can have their own personal place to pray in their homes.
Seventy short benches, or altars, filled nearly every spare aisle space in the Gladewater sanctuary, lighter wooden sides supporting camel-colored seats. The altars were patterned after one that late church member Dan Moody Watson kept in his home for decades.
"He said, 'That's where me and Mama talk to God,' " McGuire recalled Watson, who was buried in overalls with a little, red New Testament tucked into a pocket.
"The altar itself, we recognize, is just a piece of furniture. If we've got a place for our car, if we've got a place for clothes, if we've got a place for food — we don't really have a place in our homes that is set aside exclusively for prayer. If they will see the altar in the home, they will be prompted to prayer. I hope this will catch on and churches in this area will be prompted to do the same thing. Everything we believe in starts with prayer."
McGuire had been inspired by the simple object when he conducted Watson's funeral, where it took a prominent position beside the casket.
Watson's son, John, brought the original with him to church Sunday.
"It was pretty much the center of our home," he said, describing it as the place his father and mother, Mary Jane, would turn for guidance from above.
"Instead of trying to figure out something by himself, he would go to that altar first. This was a man that was very simple, and yet who felt impressed to do this."
McGuire challenged the assembly of about 140 people to start a wave of prayer that could cover the area as more join.
"I believe we can raise up a wall of prayer, like a standard at every home," McGuire said. "It's time that America wake up and realized there's power in prayer. East Texas needs a revival and an outpouring of the blessings of God.
http://www.news-journal.com/news/content/news/stories/2007/12/31/12312007_altars.html
----------------------------
Thoughts, comments, ideas???
Wow! I think its a beautiful idea and it was presented well. It also speaks volumes about a man I never knew who so impacted his church.
I like what Sam had to say... "A family altar can alter your family." Indeed. Abraham built many altars as he moved about. God seemed to choose Abraham because he knew he would command his children and his household after him and keep the way of the Lord (Genesis 18:19).
I remember being in a mansion from by-gone days and finding a chapel in the home; I was also in a very large home being built for a Muslim doctor and his family and saw their prayer room as well. Such a thing speaks volumes about the commitment and priorities of the families that live/lived in these homes.
So why not have the visual reminder that prompts us to pray and reminds us of our dependence upon God and His priortiy in our lives?
I would love to see what this church is like a year from now. Will the altars in the home be an idea that only gathers dust or will the church move to a new level? I am guessing the church will be positively impacted as future generations of families also could be. :snowing
Wow! I think its a beautiful idea and it was presented well. It also speaks volumes about a man I never knew who so impacted his church.
I like what Sam had to say... "A family altar can alter your family." Indeed. Abraham built many altars as he moved about. God seemed to choose Abraham because he knew he would command his children and his household after him and keep the way of the Lord (Genesis 18:19).
I remember being in a mansion from by-gone days and finding a chapel in the home; I was also in a very large home being built for a Muslim doctor and his family and saw their prayer room as well. Such a thing speaks volumes about the commitment and priorities of the families that live/lived in these homes.
So why not have the visual reminder that prompts us to pray and reminds us of our dependence upon God and His priortiy in our lives?
I would love to see what this church is like a year from now. Will the altars in the home be an idea that only gathers dust or will the church move to a new level? I am guessing the church will be positively impacted as future generations of families also could be. :snowing
Good post, Sis. Newmangirl... :star
rgcraig
12-31-2007, 09:41 AM
Wow! I think its a beautiful idea and it was presented well. It also speaks volumes about a man I never knew who so impacted his church.
I like what Sam had to say... "A family altar can alter your family." Indeed. Abraham built many altars as he moved about. God seemed to choose Abraham because he knew he would command his children and his household after him and keep the way of the Lord (Genesis 18:19).
I remember being in a mansion from by-gone days and finding a chapel in the home; I was also in a very large home being built for a Muslim doctor and his family and saw their prayer room as well. Such a thing speaks volumes about the commitment and priorities of the families that live/lived in these homes.
So why not have the visual reminder that prompts us to pray and reminds us of our dependence upon God and His priortiy in our lives?
I would love to see what this church is like a year from now. Will the altars in the home be an idea that only gathers dust or will the church move to a new level? I am guessing the church will be positively impacted as future generations of families also could be. :snowing
Now, that's the way to post an opinion!
Mrs. LPW
12-31-2007, 09:46 AM
Just asking whether or not it will get the intended response? Or will it just become ornate furniture in the homes of some ... next to the dusty bible?
This may very well happen... but the dusty Bible and the dusty alter won't be the fault of the pastor who is trying to lead his church to their knees.
I like the idea. I hope it does lead people to pray. I always wanted a prayer chair. It used to be my great grandmothers rocker but that fell apart. :christmoose
Mrs. LPW
12-31-2007, 09:58 AM
Yet, sometimes we try to freeze a moment in time ... take a snapshot of a wonderful experience for one or a group, clone it, and expect it to work for all time in all instances, Free. Kinda of like how we've packaged God's holiness.
It worked for him ... like the Lazyboy works for you.
My dad had a big cushion he'd use ... I love to walk and pray.
The pastor would do more to model, preach and teach prayer at every chance he can get, like Dad did, rather than try to package it ....
Sure it's a neat visual reminder ... but, IMO, it takes more than a crucifix or a prayer altar to internalize the Gospel, however.
If it's not internalized the relic is meaningless.
Unless you know this pastor personally, and I'm guessing by your posts that you don't, you can't say he should do this and should do that.
I seriously doubt he just decided out of the blue to have alters made for his members, without preaching and teaching and modeling a life of prayer as well.
That... doesn't make any sense.
I think this post kind of proves the nitpicking theory.. and I'm sorry you posted it. Because I was giving you the benefit of the doubt until you did.
The people of God used to build alters in places where God met them.. for rememberance... and so I think personal "alters" of rememberance are good for us. This alter idea, was someone else's, and so it probably won't mean near as much to all the members of the church, as it did to that particular family that it originated with... so in time it may very well become yard sale material... but I hope it does catch fire in a few homes. It might end up saving marriages and keeping kids from straying. Who knows! I applaud the pastor for his efforts.
Jekyll
12-31-2007, 10:42 AM
Garage sale piece?! Fundraiser?!
Oh please...can you two not find anything positive that those affiliated with the UPCI might do?!
I see many things wrong with the org, but grow weary of the constant attempt to make light of everything coming down the Pike.
Let us hope it accomplishes the desired intent of the pastor.
Looks like others are starting to see this stuff for what it really is.
It is a human interest story, but your thread title and the post I quoted seemed to be nitpicking again.
If I misjudged, forgive me, but one can only go by what they read.
I don't think you misjudged.
How do you know that he hasn't? He could have been teaching on it and using the first of the year/altar as a physical mark of change and challenge.
It does seem now that you posted this to criticize.
I don't know why anyone gives these threads the benefit of a doubt anymore. And people wonder why this place has gotten old.
rgcraig
12-31-2007, 10:44 AM
Looks like others are starting to see this stuff for what it really is.
I don't think you misjudged.
I don't know why anyone gives these threads the benefit of a doubt anymore. And people wonder why this place has gotten old.
It's not gotten old.
What gets old is posters not seeing the GOOD going on too!
Jekyll
12-31-2007, 10:45 AM
And indeed, a pastor should admonish his people to pray.
At an average value of $50 per bench at 100 benches, if a church could afford this price, the upside of a church praying more greatly outweighs the cost.
scotty
12-31-2007, 10:46 AM
It's not gotten old.
What gets old is posters not seeing the GOOD going on too!
Jekyll has a point, but what you are saying is true enough.
Jekyll
12-31-2007, 10:48 AM
It's not gotten old.
What gets old is posters not seeing the GOOD going on too!
I actually appreciate your defense of the "good" posting going on here.
I will accept your challenge and stay in Deep Waters and other more intelligent rooms of the forum for a while.
Yes, it HAS gotten old. Yes, some posters should see the GOOD going on in the UPC too.
philjones
12-31-2007, 10:48 AM
Dan,
What do you think about that stack of rocks just on the other side of Jordan? Bad idea? Good idea? Or, maybe, a God idea?
I actually appreciate your defense of the "good" posting going on here.
I will accept your challenge and stay in Deep Waters and other more intelligent rooms of the forum for a while.
Yes, it HAS gotten old.
Let's count how many posts you have in Deep Waters ... be back in a minute.
Dan,
What do you think about that stack of rocks just on the other side of Jordan? Bad idea? Good idea? Or, maybe, a God idea?
PJ ... once again .... great visual prompt ... may or may not work ...
Please process.
Jekyll
12-31-2007, 10:51 AM
Let's count how many posts you have in Deep Waters ... be back in a minute.
Naww, it won't take too long. Duh... I appreciate a challenge. Gotta clean off my boots from this muck, though. New Years Resolution lol
It's not gotten old.
What gets old is posters not seeing the GOOD going on too!
Oh, hon, I see the good, and even try to contibute to it every now and then, albeit ineptly I fear.:star
rgcraig
12-31-2007, 10:53 AM
Oh, hon, I see the good, and even try to contibute to it every now and then.:star
That's what will make the difference! :star :newyear :star
There are some personality conflicts that are bound to always be around on public forums!
Steve Epley
12-31-2007, 10:54 AM
What could possibly be the down side to giving altars away? Someone may actually use one.
What could possibly be the down side to giving altars away? Someone may actually use one.
True ...
Maybe even paying for it ... a nominal fee ... not even to cover the costs may be more effective.
People usually don't value free stuff ... pay something for it ... and it becomes more valuable ....
Many examples of this in our world.
That's what will make the difference! :star :newyear :star
There are some personality conflicts that are bound to always be around on public forums!
True...we have that in everyday life...:star
I actually appreciate your defense of the "good" posting going on here.
I will accept your challenge and stay in Deep Waters and other more intelligent rooms of the forum for a while.
Yes, it HAS gotten old. Yes, some posters should see the GOOD going on in the UPC too.
Naww, it won't take too long. Duh... I appreciate a challenge. Gotta clean off my boots from this muck, though. New Years Resolution lol
You stepped in here.
To ask a poster from refraining from the Fellowship Hall and post in the "more intelligent" rooms ... while having only a handful of posts in said rooms ....
may say something. :jolly
rgcraig
12-31-2007, 11:01 AM
This scripture keeps rolling over and over in my mind - - actually, singing it as we sang it in chorale!
2 Chronicles 7:14 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
I think the pastor is on to something!
J-Roc
12-31-2007, 11:14 AM
This scripture keeps rolling over and over in my mind - - actually, singing it as we sang it in chorale!
2 Chronicles 7:14 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
I think the pastor is on to something!
From the books I've read from Brooklyn Tabernacle's pastor, Jim Cymbala...he says their most important service of the week is the Tuesday night prayer service...they have always made this gathering their most important one with most emphasis. From the countless testimonies of miraculous events they witnessed through the years...this focus has not been in vain.
Steve Epley
12-31-2007, 11:16 AM
I heard someone say when I was a child you can preach too much-shout too much-sing too much- but you can't pray too much.
Not possible to backslide on your knees.
Esther
12-31-2007, 11:18 AM
I know this pastor. He is a fine man of God.
Anything anyone can do to encourage prayer is on the right track. IMO
I heard someone say when I was a child you can preach too much-shout too much-sing too much- but you can't pray too much.
Not possible to backslide on your knees.
Not sure about this absolute ...
I know men who were disciplined enough to wake up everyday at 4 -5 o'clock in the morning for church prayer ....
but were involved in sin.
Yes we must be prayerful and watch ...
but God's command ... as Renda reminded us is to first .... humble ourselves ...
Genuflecting does not necessarily mean one has humbled their self.
"Two people went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.' But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other." (Luke 18:10-14a)
I know this pastor. He is a fine man of God.
Anything anyone can do to encourage prayer is on the right track. IMO
Would that include rosary beads and selling anointed prayer cloths?
Would that include rosary beads and selling anointed prayer cloths?
Oh, Daniel, Daniel, Daniel...now you know rosary beads are meant as prayer to God through Mary. We do not believe or participate in this.
Selling anointed prayer cloths?! No, not the proper thing to do.
rgcraig
12-31-2007, 11:34 AM
Would that include rosary beads and selling anointed prayer cloths?
Apostolics don't use prayer beads.
Oh, Daniel, Daniel, Daniel...now you know rosary beads are meant as prayer to God through Mary. We do not believe or participate in this.
Selling anointed prayer cloths?! No, not the proper thing to do.
Point of clarification ....
Rosary beads are used by many other groups... not just Catholics ... or to pray thru Mary or patron saints
They are used by other Christian denominations, Muslims and other groups.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosary
Apostolics don't use prayer beads.
The shortest answer is the best answer...thank you...
Apostolics don't use prayer beads.
No they use prayers altars, Lazy-boys and other prayer furniture ... or none at all ...
Point of clarification ....
Rosary beads are used by many other groups... not just Catholics ... or to pray thru Mary or patron saints
They are used by other Christian denominations, Muslims and other groups.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosary
Thank you...I stand corrected. However, from the point of reference for most, rosary beads are most universally connected with the Catholic Church.
Was that not your first thought when you posted it?!
No they use prayers altars, Lazy-boys and other prayer furniture ... or none at all ...
Are you just stirring the pot today or is there an issue here?!
J-Roc
12-31-2007, 11:42 AM
Are you just stirring the pot today or is there an issue here?!
Huh?
scotty
12-31-2007, 11:42 AM
Are you just stirring the pot today or is there an issue here?!
The issue is "this is a UPC church so lets see if I can make them look bad just for the fun of debate"
PastorD
12-31-2007, 11:43 AM
D...I like ya, but you and Phil may need the same break. Be a pastor for a day and try to find a way to make a difference in your community. The man had an original idea....HE IS NOT SELLING THE ALTARS, but for some reason some want to keep floating that idea. Please . . .
Too many questions.
rgcraig
12-31-2007, 11:49 AM
No they use prayers altars, Lazy-boys and other prayer furniture ... or none at all ...
I use my shower, my car, my desk at work - - even been known to pray in the restroom of a court house! Anywhere works - - -ain't it beautiful!!!!!
scotty
12-31-2007, 11:51 AM
I use my shower, my car, my desk at work - - even been known to pray in the restroom of a court house! Anywhere works - - -ain't it beautiful!!!!!
PREACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Esther
12-31-2007, 11:56 AM
Would that include rosary beads and selling anointed prayer cloths?
Why do you have a fixation with the Catholics?
No one said anything about rosary beads nor selling anointed prayer cloths. Which I personally don't think you can sell an "anointed" prayer cloth. You might sell a cloth prayed over, but expecting God to anoint a cloth for your profit? I don't think so.
Esther
12-31-2007, 11:58 AM
I use my shower, my car, my desk at work - - even been known to pray in the restroom of a court house! Anywhere works - - -ain't it beautiful!!!!!
I agree I have prayed where ever I was at the time of my need.
Some of my best blessing was driving and just talking to God as though He was riding in the passenger seat beside me.
Or washing dishes with the tears flowing down my cheeks.
philjones
12-31-2007, 12:01 PM
I agree I have prayed where ever I was at the time of my need.
Some of my best blessing was driving and just talking to God as though He was riding in the passenger seat beside me.
Or washing dishes with the tears flowing down my cheeks.
Isn't it amazing that the entrance to the throne room of Grace is where ever you happen to be at the time of your need?
Who... shockamoo and thank you Jesus!
I know this pastor. He is a fine man of God.
Anything anyone can do to encourage prayer is on the right track. IMO
Thank you...I stand corrected. However, from the point of reference for most, rosary beads are most universally connected with the Catholic Church.
Was that not your first thought when you posted it?!
The issue is "this is a UPC church so lets see if I can make them look bad just for the fun of debate"
Barb ... My comment was in response to Esther's broad assertion that anything to encourage prayer is great.
I use my shower, my car, my desk at work - - even been known to pray in the restroom of a court house! Anywhere works - - -ain't it beautiful!!!!!
And that there sums it up Renda ... it can and should be done anywhere and everywhere ... at any time ....
The visual helps ... and is most effective if it stirs up action.
Great motivational piece, once again.
However, if someone decided to create Apostolic rosary beads to remind folks to pray ... what would be the reaction?
Please don't say because the rosary beads are pagan ... where did we get our design for the modern prayer altar?
It's a great idea ... based on the memory of a prayer warrior who actually used it.
However ... will it trickle down to others? Will it make some feel comfortable to know they have one ... flaunt it ... even reify it?
Is that possible??? ... can that be discussed w/o getting overly sensitive?
Prayer is not an object, a place or a pre-defined object ... it's an attitude ... a desire to commune w/ God ...
Perhaps this will serve as motivation for many ... and to that I say kudos ...
To some ... as is our human religious nature, it will be just be a piece of sacred furniture.
chseeads
12-31-2007, 12:07 PM
even been known to pray in the restroom of a court house!
Gives new meaning to coming boldly before the throne....
:penguin
rgcraig
12-31-2007, 12:09 PM
I have a prayer rock that was given to me in an Apostolic church. It's smooth and can be carried in your pocket to remind you to pray. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Rosary beads are associated with non-Apotolic churches and even though we all know it's not the beads that do anything, holding them or wearing them would appear to others as being Catholic. I wouldn't be interested.
rgcraig
12-31-2007, 12:10 PM
Gives new meaning to coming boldly before the throne....
:penguin
Well, it was a double throne - -- the judge sitting on the throne was a big ole scary guy and I needed a miracle, so that white porcelain throne was the closest quiet place I could slip off to say a quick prayer.
I might add that it worked!
D...I like ya, but you and Phil may need the same break. Be a pastor for a day and try to find a way to make a difference in your community. The man had an original idea....HE IS NOT SELLING THE ALTARS, but for some reason some want to keep floating that idea. Please . . .
Too many questions.
Pastor D,
I never said it was a fundraiser ... I think I asked Neck if he thought it was ... and he said yes.
Moreover, I suggested in a later post that perhaps it should not be given out for free ... because folks don't value free stuff.
Why do you have a fixation with the Catholics?
No one said anything about rosary beads nor selling anointed prayer cloths. Which I personally don't think you can sell an "anointed" prayer cloth. You might sell a cloth prayed over, but expecting God to anoint a cloth for your profit? I don't think so.
I think you've based my fixation on the events of the last week ... this is unrelated.
Rosary beads are used by many groups and denominations, including Muslims ... I am sorry if you've equated that to a slam ...
You made a general statement ... and I simply "nit-picked" as to it's validity by giving examples to the extreme.
The sensitivities are a very high ... I'm gonna walk.
:penguin
ContenderForTheFaith
12-31-2007, 12:46 PM
I wonder. It would not surprise me...
Your satire surprises me..........I would think this would be a positive thing, encouraging your members to put "prayer" as a top priority in 2008. Why can't we see the "good" instead of "suspecting" the worst of people?
I use my shower, my car, my desk at work - - even been known to pray in the restroom of a court house! Anywhere works - - -ain't it beautiful!!!!!
:highfive
I think you've based my fixation on the events of the last week ... this is unrelated.
Rosary beads are used by many groups and denominations, including Muslims ... I am sorry if you've equated that to a slam ...
You made a general statement ... and I simply "nit-picked" as to it's validity by giving examples to the extreme.
The sensitivities are a very high ... I'm gonna walk.
:penguin
Now who's being sensitive?!
Daniel, some here today are merely holding your posts to the same fire you hold others to.
If that offends you, perhaps you will understand how others feel.
You know full well the first notion that comes to people's minds when rosary beads are mentioned, and it is not Muslims, yet you used that example in connection with an elder encouraging the congregation to set up an altar in their homes.
Now what kind of response did you think you would get?!
It matters not to me how many are left in a corner to gain dust...if only one is used, it is worth the effort.
Sacred furniture?! Oh please, Daniel...how many Apsotolics do you know who would make a piece of a wood sacred object?!
Bottom line: the article was a good one and should have been posted here...the problem is...well you know the problem.
Now who's being sensitive?!
Daniel, some here today are merely holding your posts to the same fire you hold others to.
If that offends you, perhaps you will understand how others feel.
You know full well the first notion that comes to people's minds when rosary beads are mentioned, and it is not Muslims, yet you used that example in connection with an elder encouraging the congregation to set up an altar in their homes.
Now what kind of response did you think you would get?!
It matters not to me how many are left in a corner to gain dust...if only one is used, it is worth the effort.
Sacred furniture?! Oh please, Daniel...how many Apsotolics do you know who would make a piece of a wood sacred object?!
Bottom line: the article was a good one and should have been posted here...the problem is...well you know the problem.
And I agreed that if one is used it's worth the effort ... see my reply to Elder Epley.
My examples were to test the generalization Esther had made ... please don't make any other connections ... especially w/ the noble efforts of this pastor.
I could've used other relics to make my point but something tells me it would be received in the same manner ...
Hold me to the fire ... fine. Allow me the same courtesy. Thanks.
And I agreed that if one is used it's worth the effort ... see my reply to Elder Epley.
My examples were to test the generalization Esther had made ... please don't make any other connections ... especially w/ the noble efforts of this pastor.
I could've used other relics to make my point but something tells me it would be received in the same manner ...
Hold me to the fire ... fine. Allow me the same courtesy. Thanks.
Absolutely, Daniel...:star
Carpenter
12-31-2007, 02:10 PM
The sensitivities are a very high ... I'm gonna walk.
:penguin
Danny-boy if you are talking about taking a stroll down a plank and you need someone to tie your hands, just let me know.
Actually I think the prayer altar is a great idea. I have been looking for a short antique pew I can refurbish for a little prayer altar for my family. I have been looking for a long time with little success...I would also use it to sit on and tie my shoes, etc.
:D
If you are talking about taking a stroll down a plank and you need someone to tie your hands, just let me know.
Actually I think the prayer altar is a great idea. I have been looking for a short antique pew I can refurbish for a little prayer altar for my family. I have been looking for a long time with little success...I would also use it to sit on and tie my shoes, etc.
:D
:thwak ;)
Carpenter
12-31-2007, 03:13 PM
:thwak ;)
What? I wouldn't dedicate it as a place of prayer only, just for the memories, for my daughter to know that Prayer begins in the home, and that prayer and time needs to be dedicated not inanimate stuff. You pray at home right? Do you use the room or the closet you pray in for anything else?
:gotcha
What? I wouldn't dedicate it as a place of prayer only, just for the memories, for my daughter to know that Prayer begins in the home, and that prayer and time needs to be dedicated not inanimate stuff. You pray at home right? Do you use the room or the closet you pray in for anything else?
:gotcha
Oh I know, Carp...it's just the way you said it and with a big grin. I thought it deserving of a whack on the head...:newyear
Carpenter
12-31-2007, 03:27 PM
Oh I know, Carp...it's just the way you said it and with a big grin. I thought it deserving of a whack on the head...:newyear
I for one CAN take a whack on the head...from some folks at least. :D
Encryptus
12-31-2007, 03:27 PM
I think you've based my fixation on the events of the last week ... this is unrelated.
Rosary beads are used by many groups and denominations, including Muslims ... I am sorry if you've equated that to a slam ...
You made a general statement ... and I simply "nit-picked" as to it's validity by giving examples to the extreme.
The sensitivities are a very high ... I'm gonna walk.
:penguin
Perhaps the thought of Apostolic crucifixes would be less offense.
Maybe someone could put Acts 2:38 on the back.
Then people would be thinking correctly instead of Hail Marys and the such...
:couch
Carpenter
12-31-2007, 03:33 PM
Perhaps the thought of Apostolic crucifixes would be less offense.
Maybe someone could put Acts 2:38 on the back.
Then people would be thinking correctly instead of Hail Marys and the such...
:couch
Uh-oh, this sounds dangerously close to putting the apostolic movement on a collision course with the religious postmodern revival.
Encryptus
12-31-2007, 03:36 PM
Uh-oh, this sounds dangerously close to putting the apostolic movement on a collision course with the religious postmodern revival.
Not sure what you mean by the term, is that anything like hiding behind slogans, and themes instead of learning theology?
If so, then that would often seem to be the case.
Carpenter
12-31-2007, 03:43 PM
[/B]
Not sure what you mean by the term, is that anything like hiding behind slogans, and themes instead of learning theology?
If so, then that would often seem to be the case.
Yes and no, it is the introduction and implementation of symbolism (i.e. candles, icons...) into personal worship, reflection and repose, and not necessarily the abandonment of theology.
I heard of one church that put together a "reflection" course in which it had certain milestones set up where folks could re-visit experiences with God throughout their life. As they prayed and literally crawled through the darkened course stopping at those milestones, good and bad, they came out the other side with an incredibly powerful spiritual experience. I can picture that.
Some of it sounds pretty awesome, and if the Apostolic church ever DID embrace SOME of the elements it could be powerful beyond measure. The bad thing is that it could lead further into all sundry weirdness.
RandyWayne
12-31-2007, 03:53 PM
Whenever I think of personal "church pews" or "prayer altars" in the home a number of images come to mind. Images of Steve Martin kneeling before a photo of his mama surrounded by lit candles ("Ooohhhhh Mama!") or "Carrie" being locked in the closet by her overbearing catholic mother. There is just something a little creepy about it.
Carpenter
12-31-2007, 03:56 PM
Whenever I think of personal "church pews" or "prayer altars" in the home a number of images come to mind. Images of Steve Martin kneeling before a photo of his mama surrounded by lit candles ("Ooohhhhh Mama!") or "Carrie" being locked in the closet by her overbearing catholic mother. There is just something a little creepy about it.
That is why I said I would also use my little pew to sit on and tie my shoes.
I agree with you, however I believe our children are at a deficit in being taught that everything Jesus needs to start in the home. I am not putting something so important as the spiritual health of my kids into the hands of the institution. no way. Being disappointed with the institution should not equate with being disappointed with God, and unfortunately this is the case in many situations.
Ronzo
12-31-2007, 03:59 PM
Being disappointed with the institution should not equate with being disappointed with God, and unfortunately this is the case in many situations.
How true it is.
James Griffin
12-31-2007, 04:00 PM
Yes and no, it is the introduction and implementation of symbolism (i.e. candles, icons...) into personal worship, reflection and repose, and not necessarily the abandonment of theology.
I heard of one church that put together a "reflection" course in which it had certain milestones set up where folks could re-visit experiences with God throughout their life. As they prayed and literally crawled through the darkened course stopping at those milestones, good and bad, they came out the other side with an incredibly powerful spiritual experience. I can picture that.
Some of it sounds pretty awesome, and if the Apostolic church ever DID embrace SOME of the elements it could be powerful beyond measure. The bad thing is that it could lead further into all sundry weirdness.
Apostolics often seem to make idols of their slogans, (and turn verses into slogans as well) so I guess incorporating tangible icons would be a short step for some.
Personally, most could use more structure. The closest thing to a ritual Jesus instituted was communion, a sacrament which Apostolics seem to observe least of all.
On the other hand, Apostolics have their own rituals, some of which they do not even recognize as such.
Nahum
12-31-2007, 04:10 PM
Who would have imagined something as worthy as a man building altars and GIVING them away would have been fodder for slamming Pentecostals and comparing them to Catholics again?
Unreal.
A new low.
Carpenter
12-31-2007, 04:12 PM
Who would have imagined something as worthy as a man building altars and GIVING them away would have been fodder for slamming Pentecostals and comparing them to Catholics again?
Unreal.
A new low.
You are forgetting the first rool of AFF, don't get tunnel vision after reading just one post...
Nahum
12-31-2007, 04:13 PM
You are forgetting the first rool of AFF, don't get tunnel vision after reading just one post...
Bro, I have been around a while now.
I did read all of the posts.
Carpenter
12-31-2007, 04:14 PM
Apostolics often seem to make idols of their slogans, (and turn verses into slogans as well) so I guess incorporating tangible icons would be a short step for some.
Personally, most could use more structure. The closest thing to a ritual Jesus instituted was communion, a sacrament which Apostolics seem to observe least of all.
On the other hand, Apostolics have their own rituals, some of which they do not even recognize as such.
Well, I think you are correct in some ways, we all do this. I do believe however there is a difference between an icon and an idol.
Just as the church upholds and advocates the use of landmarks and milestones, I do not believe they are encouraging worship of these things.
Carpenter
12-31-2007, 04:14 PM
Bro, I have been around a while now.
I did read all of the posts.
Did you read mine? I was tossed in with the lot you were holding your torch against.
I thought it was a good idea.
James Griffin
12-31-2007, 04:18 PM
Well, I think you are correct in some ways, we all do this. I do believe however there is a difference between an icon and an idol.
Just as the church upholds and advocates the use of landmarks and milestones, I do not believe they are encouraging worship of these things.
Agreed 100%. I have NO doubt that the pastor in this case had purest of motives, and it was a beautiful thing.
I believe others were discussing the subject generally, and in some cases the wires got crossed....
:-)
In some ways we actually need more rituals, but perhaps we also need to perhaps recognize the things which we have inadvertently turned into rituals.
RandyWayne
12-31-2007, 04:23 PM
In some ways we actually need more rituals, but perhaps we also need to perhaps recognize the things which we have inadvertently turned into rituals.
Rituals are not automatically bad when one knows what they represent, but they DO become something else when the ritual itself holds its own power.
Carpenter
12-31-2007, 04:25 PM
Rituals are not automatically bad when one knows what they represent, but they DO become something else when the ritual itself holds its own power.
I was going to say something about hair, but...ya know...decided not to.
:D
RandyWayne
12-31-2007, 04:29 PM
Hair is the PERFECT example of a "symbol" having power in its own right!
Agreed 100%. I have NO doubt that the pastor in this case had purest of motives, and it was a beautiful thing.
I believe others were discussing the subject generally, and in some cases the wires got crossed....
:-)
In some ways we actually need more rituals, but perhaps we also need to perhaps recognize the things which we have inadvertently turned into rituals.
It's not the motives being questioned ... pure as they were ... it's what's done w/ the relic that is being discussed.
Who would have imagined something as worthy as a man building altars and GIVING them away would have been fodder for slamming Pentecostals and comparing them to Catholics again?
Unreal.
A new low.
http://www.tolland.k12.ct.us/techservices/RoseColoredGlasses.gif
Whole Hearted
12-31-2007, 06:15 PM
Who would have imagined something as worthy as a man building altars and GIVING them away would have been fodder for slamming Pentecostals and comparing them to Catholics again?
Unreal.
A new low.
PP you and I are agreeing again.
ManOfWord
12-31-2007, 07:18 PM
I preached my very first revival meeting in a Gladewater, TX UPC church. The pastor was C.B. Warren. I went to ABI with his daughter. The revival was an "old fashioned" revival that I preached for 14 days straight! (and I couldn't even wear short sleeved shirts) Boy was it hot!! :D
Cindy
12-31-2007, 10:51 PM
It was cool in Gladewater today MOW. Highs in the 60's. Bet my grandbabies were outside enjoying it.
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