Reminds me of why I oppose death penalty in Texas

[James Griffin]

By PAUL J. WEBERWed Jan 2, 11:55 PM ET

A man convicted of raping a woman in 1981 and sentenced to life in prison has been cleared by DNA evidence and will be released, according to attorneys who have helped free 14 other wrongfully convicted inmates in Dallas County.

Charles Chatman, 47, is expected to be released Thursday after spending more than 26 years behind bars, said Natalie Roetzel of the Innocence Project of Texas.

"I never lost hope," Chatman told The Associated Press. "I always believed I would get out. I didn't know when or how, but I kept believing."

Chatman would be the 15th inmate convicted in Dallas County and later exonerated by DNA evidence, the most of any prosecuting office in the nation, according to the Innocence Project.

"Charles has always maintained his innocence," said Michelle Moore, a Dallas County public defender.

Since 2001, DNA tests have exonerated at least 30 wrongfully convicted inmates in Texas, the most of any state, according to the Innocence Project, a New York-based legal clinic that seeks to uncover wrongful convictions.
Jamille Bradfield, a spokeswoman for the Dallas County District Attorney's Office, confirmed that there will be a court hearing Thursday morning at which Chatman is expected to win his release.

Chatman was 20 when the victim, a young woman in her 20s, picked him from a photo lineup, Moore said. His nearly 27 years in prison for aggravated sexual assault will make him the longest-serving inmate in Texas to be freed by DNA evidence, she said.

Chatman said he was already in jail on an unrelated burglary when he was charged. He said he lived five houses down from the victim for 13 years but never knew her. At the time the woman was assaulted, Chatman said he didn't have any front teeth; he had been certain that feature would set him apart from the real assailant.

Moore said Chatman applied for DNA testing in 2004 but was told the process could be risky. The only evidence containing DNA was from a swab from the victim, Moore said, and a single test would consume the entire sample. An inconclusive test would exhaust all evidence.

Despite the risks, Chatman reapplied for testing early last year.

"This is a guy who's had to face horrible decisions," Moore said.

Dallas County District Attorney Craig Watkins has started a program in which law students, supervised by the Innocence Project, are reviewing about 450 cases in which convicts have requested DNA testing to prove their innocence.
___
Associated Press writer Jeff Carlton contributed to this report.

[Cindy]

Just in Texas or do you oppose it elsewhere?

[Nahum]

I oppose the death penalty 100%.

I'm with you James.

[James Griffin]

Just in Texas or do you oppose it elsewhere?

CNEASTTX,

I personally believe all death penalty administered by human government is wrong.

However, everyone should believe the death penalty, especially as administered in Texas is wrong. And I am one of the few who have actually litigated on both sides of capital cases in Texas, so I consider my views balanced.

The state of Texas executes more people than all but a couple countries in the world. (Including such luminaries as China, and Iraq),

Harris County (Houston) is the undisputed death capital of Texas.

It is the only major metro area in the US I am aware of with NO public defenders. The judge of the case makes individual appointments to defense attorneys.

For decades Houston was the only metro area without an accredited crime lab. Even now it has been the target of several federal investigations and currently there are thousands of cases under review.

I am just getting warmed up and could honestly speak for an hour on the topic. Suffice it to say the simple answer to your question.

Yes I oppose the death penalty generally.

Everyone should oppose the death penalty as administered in Texas.

[Cindy]

Thank you.
Wow, I was born in Houston, grew up in Dallas and now live in a rural town in East TX. Had heard about the crime lab situtaion in Harris County on the news. My views on the death penalty have changed over the years. As I have gotten older I guess I have learned mercy, not tolerance for crime, but mercy for human life. This man was in his early 20's when he was sent to prison. So he has spent half his life in prison for a crime he didn't commit. Will there be any reprucussions for the woman that ID'd him?

[James Griffin]

Thank you.
Wow, I was born in Houston, grew up in Dallas and now live in a rural town in East TX. Had heard about the crime lab situtaion in Harris County on the news. My views on the death penalty have changed over the years. As I have gotten older I guess I have learned mercy, not tolerance for crime, but mercy for human life. This man was in his early 20's when he was sent to prison. So he has spent half his life in prison for a crime he didn't commit. Will there be any reprucussions for the woman that ID'd him?

Not legally nor should there be (except in the rare case where false testimony was given with malicious intent). I imagine for most it would be intense enough punishment to find out that you had falsely ID'd the wrong person, and not only that, while they were languishing in prison the real rapist was roaming free.

But good question.

[Cindy]

I use to think sexual assault should be considered a capital case w/death penalty as an option. Sometimes more so than murder. I think a lot of women probably felt this way at one time or other. But what I was kind of getting from the article was that they probably saw each other some since they lived that close together. Just wondered if she chose him as a scapegoat for some reason known only to her. As in maybe it wasn't a case of mistaken identity on her part. Maybe it was intentional.

[James Griffin]

I use to think sexual assault should be considered a capital case w/death penalty as an option. Sometimes more so than murder. I think a lot of women probably felt this way at one time or other. But what I was kind of getting from the article was that they probably saw each other some since they lived that close together. Just wondered if she chose him as a scapegoat for some reason known only to her. As in maybe it wasn't a case of mistaken identity on her part. Maybe it was intentional.

Personally I think it was a case of mistaken identity. False memory created when shown photo lineup. (He looks familiar and since the police are showing me those pictures it must be one of them). The false memory phenomenon is even more pronounced in child molestation cases.

One reason for not making rape a death penalty case is the theory the rapist would have NOTHING to lose to killing the victim, since he is facing death anyway.

[ReformedDave]

In the OT economy was capitol punishment wrong?

[RevDWW]

I oppose the death penalty 100%.

I'm with you James.

Wow..What was the Apostle Paul thinking when he stated "The wages of sin is death" and "the powers that be do not wield the sword in vain"?

[Cindy]

Personally I think it was a case of mistaken identity. False memory created when shown photo lineup. (He looks familiar and since the police are showing me those pictures it must be one of them). The false memory phenomenon is even more pronounced in child molestation cases.

One reason for not making rape a death penalty case is the theory the rapist would have NOTHING to lose to killing the victim, since he is facing death anyway.

Okay, I hadn't thought of the first part of your response. As for the second part sadly all too often they do kill them anyway.

[Cindy]

In the OT economy was capitol punishment wrong?

I am not sure. But remember Moses ran away after killing a man, probably to escape punishment. Of course back then they had the eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. And it might follow that thieves had their hands cut off, and killers probably were killed.

But they also had safe cities for criminals to run to where they couldn't be punished or killed. If they made it they were safe, if not I guess they had some type of punishment system in place for them.

[James Griffin]

Okay, I hadn't thought of the first part of your response. As for the second part sadly all too often they do kill them anyway.

I am not sure. But remember Moses ran away after killing a man, probably to escape punishment. Of course back then they had the eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. And it might follow that thieves had their hands cut off, and killers probably were killed.

But they also had safe cities for criminals to run to where they couldn't be punished or killed. If they made it they were safe, if not I guess they had some type of punishment system in place for them.

True, even if once it would be too often. But murder in the course of a felony would make it capital offense...

Yes it appears that some are unable to get past Jesus changing the Christian's conduct from eye for an eye to turn the other cheek.

As the article points out, contrary to what the public perceives often eye witness testimony is not the most reliable.

Another interesting trivia twist is in US jurisprudence you can be put to death with one eyewitness, I believe in the OT in required a minimum of two reliable eyewitnesses.

[ReformedDave]

I am not sure. But remember Moses ran away after killing a man, probably to escape punishment. Of course back then they had the eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. And it might follow that thieves had their hands cut off, and killers probably were killed.

But they also had safe cities for criminals to run to where they couldn't be punished or killed. If they made it they were safe, if not I guess they had some type of punishment system in place for them.

Seems that those who are against the death penalty fly in the face of Scripture. Seems that God thought it was appropriate. It's interesting how God demanded that at times all of a city, or people, are to be wiped out. Even 'innocent' children and women.....Oh I forgot. That's a different God. The old testament God.

[Cindy]

Well I am not arguing for or against the death penalty. But I do live in TX and we have a high percentage of actual death sentences carried out. But I also know that our prisons here are very overcrowded. And expensive to run. I do not want repeat rapist, murderers, thieves, child molesters (killers) in my community without knowledge that they are there. I live in a small town and they at one time put pictures and names and addresses of convicted sex offenders (especially of children) in the paper. You can also go to our state police website and find them there. That being said the biggest problem in our rural area is drugs. Especially Meth labs., crack and other drugs. The saddest thing to me is that a lot of the ones that get arrested are people 50 and older. I just don't understand what could be worth the penalty if you get caught of doing this.

[James Griffin]

Seems that those who are against the death penalty fly in the face of Scripture. Seems that God thought it was appropriate. It's interesting how God demanded that at times all of a city, or people, are to be wiped out. Even 'innocent' children and women.....Oh I forgot. That's a different God. The old testament God.

Same God, different dispensation.

[James Griffin]

Well I am not arguing for or against the death penalty. But I do live in TX and we have a high percentage of actual death sentences carried out. But I also know that our prisons here are very overcrowded. And expensive to run. I do not want repeat rapist, murderers, thieves, child molesters (killers) in my community without knowledge that they are there. I live in a small town and they at one time put pictures and names and addresses of convicted sex offenders (especially of children) in the paper. You can also go to our state police website and find them there. That being said the biggest problem in our rural area is drugs. Especially Meth labs., crack and other drugs. The saddest thing to me is that a lot of the ones that get arrested are people 50 and older. I just don't understand what could be worth the penalty if you get caught of doing this.

In old England for instance, all felonies where death penalty offenses. Be they murder or killing the king's deer.

In US jurisprudence, a death penalty can only occur in the case of a murder, with special circumstances. All murders are not created equal.

There are those who apparently wish to argue the theory of the death penalty, but simply refuse to acknowledge the inherent weaknesses of the system of jurisprudence which applies it. Particularly in Texas.

The state sponsored death of a single innocent person is an abomination.

[Cindy]

In old England for instance, all felonies where death penalty offenses. Be they murder or killing the king's deer.

In US jurisprudence, a death penalty can only occur in the case of a murder, with special circumstances. All murders are not created equal.

There are those who apparently wish to argue the theory of the death penalty, but simply refuse to acknowledge the inherent weaknesses of the system of jurisprudence which applies it. Particularly in Texas.

The state sponsored death of a single innocent person is an abomination.

I understand about capital murders. Like murder in the commision of a felony such as kidnapping, armed robbery, home invasion, or murdering a peace officer. I do agree that if one innocent person is put to death by the state it is wrong. In the case of rape though usually there IS only ONE witness. Now in most places do they show the victim pictures or do they still do the lineup thing?

Do you still practice law JG?

[James Griffin]

I understand about capital murders. Like murder in the commision of a felony such as kidnapping, armed robbery, home invasion, or murdering a peace officer. I do agree that if one innocent person is put to death by the state it is wrong. In the case of rape though usually there IS only ONE witness. Now in most places do they show the victim pictures or do they still do the lineup thing?

Do you still practice law JG?

Both are valid, photo line ups are the easiest and most cost effective therefore real lineups are rarely used these days.

I am still licensed yes. Rarely do criminal anymore. Actually trying to get more into shall we say church law.

:-)

[sherr34]

I will keep my comments to myself. :shhh

[Cindy]

ok, thanks.
Well it does seem like the church might need some good legal minds.

[RevDWW]

I am not sure. But remember Moses ran away after killing a man, probably to escape punishment. Of course back then they had the eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. And it might follow that thieves had their hands cut off, and killers probably were killed.

But they also had safe cities for criminals to run to where they couldn't be punished or killed. If they made it they were safe, if not I guess they had some type of punishment system in place for them.
The cities of refuge were not for criminals. When a man had killed someone, the kin of the one killed death could and would be avenged the death even if it were an accident. So a man could run to a city of refuge and make his case before the rulers of that city. If the death was accidental, he could stay and be safe, but if he went out, his life could be taken by the avenger. The only time he could leave was when the high priest that was in office when he went into the city died.

kind of parallels us running to the Kingdom of God because the sentence of death is on our lives for sin. Once we enter in we can not leave and expect to be safe, as our High Priest will never die!

[Cindy]

The cities of refuge were not for criminals. When a man had killed someone, the kin of the one killed death could and would be avenged the death even if it were an accident. So a man could run to a city of refuge and make his case before the rulers of that city. If the death was accidental, he could stay and be safe, but if he went out, his life could be taken by the avenger. The only time he could leave was when the high priest that was in office when he went into the city died.

kind of parallels us running to the Kingdom of God because the sentence of death is on our lives for sin. Once we enter in we can not leave and expect to be safe, as our High Priest will never die!

Thank you Rev. I knew I had read something about that and sorry I misquoted scripture. But it is kind of what I meant, there was some refuge offered and safety if he stayed in the city.
And Amen, it sure does and thank God for our refuge and High Priest, Jesus.

[ReformedDave]

In old England for instance, all felonies where death penalty offenses. Be they murder or killing the king's deer.

In US jurisprudence, a death penalty can only occur in the case of a murder, with special circumstances. All murders are not created equal.

There are those who apparently wish to argue the theory of the death penalty, but simply refuse to acknowledge the inherent weaknesses of the system of jurisprudence which applies it. Particularly in Texas.

The state sponsored death of a single innocent person is an abomination.

To go against God's law is not wise at all. You would seem, I could be wrong, to have a problem with the death penalty as described in Scripture.

As long as there are humans there will be weakness. That in no way nullifies the proper use of the law.

[embonpoint]

One of the reasons I would support the Death Penalty in Texas.

Police Say Man Killed, Cooked Woman
By PAUL J. WEBER,AP
Posted: 2008-01-07 07:06:57
Filed Under: Crime News
TYLER, Texas (Jan. 7) - Deputies responding to a 911 call in this East Texas town found a gruesome scene: a human ear boiling in a pot on a stovetop and a hunk of flesh impaled on a fork sitting atop a plate on the kitchen table.


Authorities believe that the man arrested in the death of his 21-year-old girlfriend cooked parts of her body and may have tried to eat them — actions he described to them in the emergency call that led them to the grisly discovery.......

[Cindy]

I have come to the conclusin that God can mete out better or more punishment than man. The death penalty seems to just get them there sooner. I have even had an idea of how prisons should be, not practical, but anyway. I guess they put all the violent inmates in one block or whatever they call it. Doesn't make sense to me if they are violent outside won't they be more violent when they are all together? As like calls to like. My idea for child molestors is that they should never get out of prison, castrated or not. Same goes for rapists. I mean rightly convicted inmates. As this thread was started about a man wrongly convicted of rape I assume JG wanted to make his opinion known about the Texas justice system, and the death penalty. As we seem to have a lot of inmates on death row. I think Florida is close to if not equal with Texas in this regard. And we hear time and time again most inmates refuse to admit guilt of a crime. So if an inmate is really innocent no one wants to hear it. It's just the same old same old. Hooray for technology, DNA, and other evidence gathering tools. But the labs are only as good as the people that work there.

[augustianian]

Concerning falsely condemned men on death row:

Couldn't the same case be made for the punishment of any crime?? Because there are those who are falsely condemned of all crimes, we shouldn't punish anybody??

So what?? The death penalty curbs crime. It's a fact. For those who disagree...the perpetrator who is executed...does it curb his crime??

Where is the abdication of the death penalty commandment in the NT??

You better thank God for the death penalty...without it there would be no propitiation. (ironic isn't it?)

a

[HeavenlyOne]

There is a good reason why Singapore is considered the safest country on the planet.

[RevDWW]

It has been proven that the death penalty cuts down on the recidivism rate for those on which it is carried out!

[James Griffin]

One of the reasons I would support the Death Penalty in Texas.

Police Say Man Killed, Cooked Woman
By PAUL J. WEBER,AP
Posted: 2008-01-07 07:06:57
Filed Under: Crime News
TYLER, Texas (Jan. 7) - Deputies responding to a 911 call in this East Texas town found a gruesome scene: a human ear boiling in a pot on a stovetop and a hunk of flesh impaled on a fork sitting atop a plate on the kitchen table.


Authorities believe that the man arrested in the death of his 21-year-old girlfriend cooked parts of her body and may have tried to eat them — actions he described to them in the emergency call that led them to the grisly discovery.......

Would be nice if life were full of pat answers. :-) Let's execute based on a newspaper article.

[Cindy]

It has been proven that the death penalty cuts down on the recidivism rate for those on which it is carried out!

yep. Very subtle comment RevDWW.

[James Griffin]

Concerning falsely condemned men on death row:

Couldn't the same case be made for the punishment of any crime?? Because there are those who are falsely condemned of all crimes, we shouldn't punish anybody??

So what?? The death penalty curbs crime. It's a fact. For those who disagree...the perpetrator who is executed...does it curb his crime??

Where is the abdication of the death penalty commandment in the NT??

You better thank God for the death penalty...without it there would be no propitiation. (ironic isn't it?)

a

The difference being if the person in the original article (which the latest posters obviously have not read) were executed although he has now been proven innocent...

And ironically enough, Singapore, near bottom in executions and yet still safe. While Texas still ranks near the top in both.. Hmmm.

If you guys want to start and pro-government sanctioned death thread. Might be time to move to forum instead of NEWSROOM.

The point of thread (once again for those who obviously jumped in without reading it), was not the morality of the death penalty. It was the execution of the innocent because of the flaws in the system.

[Cindy]

JG, do you think the reason the system in Texas especially is having this problem because many Texans are for the death penalty? And so don't really want to change or try to fix the problems? The Harris County problem alone will take years to untangle. As well as Dallas. And a lot of smaller counties send their evidence to the labs in cities like Dallas, and Houston don't they?
It could take decades to go through all those case by case.

[James Griffin]

JG, do you think the reason the system in Texas especially is having this problem because many Texans are for the death penalty? And so don't really want to change or try to fix the problems? The Harris County problem alone will take years to untangle. As well as Dallas. And a lot of smaller counties send their evidence to the labs in cities like Dallas, and Houston don't they?
It could take decades to go through all those case by case.

Honestly no, Texas is not particularly high in number of persons sentenced to death. Just number of those carried out.

Highest criminal court in Texas The Court of Criminal Appeals (not the Texas Supreme Court) has gone so far as to rule that a defense attorney sleeping during a trial could be considered a defense strategy. There are many other examples. The US Supreme Court tries to stay out of state issues as much as it can, but it is not impossible that it may reach a point that they grant a complete moratorium in Texas.

The reason not fixed. Apathy more than anything else and the public cynicism that is this high tech age mistakes are possible.

Don't know current situation but DNA in murder cases was being sent to DPS crime lab in Austin for a time while Houston was under investigation.

Many of thousands of cases under review are drug cases, where the lab techs deliberately falsified results, or never did the tests but published results. But at least if they falsely get life in prison there is a possibility of getting out.

Solutions? How do you overcome apathy?
One solution in Texas would be for legislature to pass a law making life without parole a possibility. Right now it is not an option. Cost effective. And mistakes can be remedied.

[embonpoint]

The difference being if the person in the original article (which the latest posters obviously have not read) were executed although he has now been proven innocent...

And ironically enough, Singapore, near bottom in executions and yet still safe. While Texas still ranks near the top in both.. Hmmm.

If you guys want to start and pro-government sanctioned death thread. Might be time to move to forum instead of NEWSROOM.

The point of thread (once again for those who obviously jumped in without reading it), was not the morality of the death penalty. It was the execution of the innocent because of the flaws in the system.

Uummm!
Your Title for the thread is "Reminds me of why I oppose death penalty in Texas" followed up in your next post by

CNEASTTX,

I personally believe all death penalty administered by human government is wrong......

...Yes I oppose the death penalty generally.

Everyone should oppose the death penalty as administered in Texas.

I know I'm slow, but surely you can understand where some would think the point was whether the death penalty is just or moral.

[augustianian]

The difference being if the person in the original article (which the latest posters obviously have not read) were executed although he has now been proven innocent...

And ironically enough, Singapore, near bottom in executions and yet still safe. While Texas still ranks near the top in both.. Hmmm.

If you guys want to start and pro-government sanctioned death thread. Might be time to move to forum instead of NEWSROOM.

The point of thread (once again for those who obviously jumped in without reading it), was not the morality of the death penalty. It was the execution of the innocent because of the flaws in the system.


I started a thread titled "CT's top ten Religious Stories of 2007" that turned into a discussion about David Beckham's wife.

Go figure.

Although I must remind you of the title of this thread..."Reminds me of why I opposed death penalty in Texas."

a

[Neck]

By PAUL J. WEBERWed Jan 2, 11:55 PM ET

A man convicted of raping a woman in 1981 and sentenced to life in prison has been cleared by DNA evidence and will be released, according to attorneys who have helped free 14 other wrongfully convicted inmates in Dallas County.

Charles Chatman, 47, is expected to be released Thursday after spending more than 26 years behind bars, said Natalie Roetzel of the Innocence Project of Texas.

"I never lost hope," Chatman told The Associated Press. "I always believed I would get out. I didn't know when or how, but I kept believing."

Chatman would be the 15th inmate convicted in Dallas County and later exonerated by DNA evidence, the most of any prosecuting office in the nation, according to the Innocence Project.

"Charles has always maintained his innocence," said Michelle Moore, a Dallas County public defender.

Since 2001, DNA tests have exonerated at least 30 wrongfully convicted inmates in Texas, the most of any state, according to the Innocence Project, a New York-based legal clinic that seeks to uncover wrongful convictions.
Jamille Bradfield, a spokeswoman for the Dallas County District Attorney's Office, confirmed that there will be a court hearing Thursday morning at which Chatman is expected to win his release.

Chatman was 20 when the victim, a young woman in her 20s, picked him from a photo lineup, Moore said. His nearly 27 years in prison for aggravated sexual assault will make him the longest-serving inmate in Texas to be freed by DNA evidence, she said.

Chatman said he was already in jail on an unrelated burglary when he was charged. He said he lived five houses down from the victim for 13 years but never knew her. At the time the woman was assaulted, Chatman said he didn't have any front teeth; he had been certain that feature would set him apart from the real assailant.

Moore said Chatman applied for DNA testing in 2004 but was told the process could be risky. The only evidence containing DNA was from a swab from the victim, Moore said, and a single test would consume the entire sample. An inconclusive test would exhaust all evidence.

Despite the risks, Chatman reapplied for testing early last year.

"This is a guy who's had to face horrible decisions," Moore said.

Dallas County District Attorney Craig Watkins has started a program in which law students, supervised by the Innocence Project, are reviewing about 450 cases in which convicts have requested DNA testing to prove their innocence.
___
Associated Press writer Jeff Carlton contributed to this report.

But when they found Human heads in Jeffrey Dahmer's freezer here in Milwaukee.

We had to use our own form of the Death Penalty, since WI does not have it.

It was called look the other way guards as Michael Scarver Killed Jeffrey Dahmer and Jesse Anderson with a bar from a workout bench....

Do you know Jeffrey Dahmer did not have wounds on his arms.

He did not raise his arms while he was being beaten to death.

He was quoted as saying I deserve this....

[Encryptus]

But when they found Human heads in Jeffrey Dahmer's freezer here in Milwaukee.

We had to use our own form of the Death Penalty, since WI does not have it.

It was called look the other way guards as Michael Scarver Killed Jeffrey Dahmer and Jesse Anderson with a bar from a workout bench....

Do you know Jeffrey Dahmer did not have wounds on his arms.

He did not raise his arms while he was being beaten to death.

He was quoted as saying I deserve this....

First- its sad to glory in anyone's demise.

Second- having just caught up it looks like previous threads had to to with "state sponsored executions"

Third- Christian equals vengeance and retribution? Now that's a witness to the world.

[Neck]

First- its sad to glory in anyone's demise.

Second- having just caught up it looks like previous threads had to to with "state sponsored executions"

Third- Christian equals vengeance and retribution? Now that's a witness to the world.

I just stated the Jeffrey Dahmer himself stated as he was dying, I deserve this....

[Cindy]

First- its sad to glory in anyone's demise.

Second- having just caught up it looks like previous threads had to to with "state sponsored executions"

Third- Christian equals vengeance and retribution? Now that's a witness to the world.

First -- Agree.
Second -- Yes, especially in Texas where this happened.
Third -- Some christians are for and some are against.