Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship - Articles of Faith

[pentecostisalive]

The articles of faith for WPF are now posted at:

http://www.worldwidepf.com/page.php?ID=29

I really think that they are very well done. It doesn't have as much room for personal interpretation, and I think that is a good thing.

[Timmy]

The articles of faith for WPF are now posted at:

http://www.worldwidepf.com/page.php?ID=29

I really think that they are very well done. It doesn't have as much room for personal interpretation, and I think that is a good thing.

:popcorn2

[Neck]

The articles of faith for WPF are now posted at:

http://www.worldwidepf.com/page.php?ID=29

I really think that they are very well done. It doesn't have as much room for personal interpretation, and I think that is a good thing.

1. Mission: The mission of the Church is to be the recipients of, and to carry the good news of Jesus Christ to the world (Matthew 28:19). This includes bringing to bear every acceptable resource to the accomplishing of these ends.


Except TV.....

[Maple Leaf]

The articles of faith for WPF are now posted at:

http://www.worldwidepf.com/page.php?ID=29

I really think that they are very well done. It doesn't have as much room for personal interpretation, and I think that is a good thing.

Very interesting.

Why do you think that they omitted any reference to the new birth doctrine?

I would have expected a clear statement of the water and Spirit doctrine, which is strangely absent.

[StillStanding]

Some interesting quotes:

The believer abstains from purveyors of all such, including, but not limited to, prurient print material, unclean musical acts and songs, and musical productions (I Corinthians 15:33), Hollywood-style movies, and television, worldly sports, improper internet content, and all other forms and mediums of such (Deuteronomy 7:26).

To glory in men in any situation, whether religious, theatre, or sporting events, is a conflict with scripture.

All artifice is viewed as obstruction to her authentic beauty and is to be avoided (I Timothy 2:9,10). Jewelry, (I Timothy 2:9), make-up, (II Kings 9:3) dyes, and any other artifice, as well as immodest apparel, are viewed as attempts to artificially induce beauty (Isaiah 3:16-24 RSV, I Peter 3:1-5) and replace the lost glow of God’s glory as seen in the face of the believer as well as in the heavens.

I will further endeavor to prevent the abuse of the sanctity of my life and family by preventing such things access to my home and family. In exemplifying this commitment, and because of its overwhelmingly unacceptable nature, I will avoid soliciting television use for ministry or having television, or other Hollywood or Hollywood-type productions and movies in my home or elsewhere. I will further refrain from engaging in any other such unacceptable programs or materials via radio, internet or any other present or future technology. I will limit my use of all forms of communication technology to that which is, educational, business, or otherwise wholesome and edifying.

iii. I will support the World Pentecostal Fellowship (WPF) as God prospers, with $60.00 per month dues contributed on a quarterly basis. This may come from my personal tithe, the remainder of which may also go to WPF or elsewhere in the work of God.

It's $720 per year to join!

[Timmy]

It's $720 per year to join!

Yeah, but it comes out of your tithes. :thumbsup

[Timmy]

1. Mission: The mission of the Church is to be the recipients of, and to carry the good news of Jesus Christ to the world (Matthew 28:19). This includes bringing to bear every acceptable resource to the accomplishing of these ends.


Except TV.....

Well, duh! :toofunny

[SoCaliUPC]

Some interesting quotes:




It's $720 per year to join!

Actually....$240 (60 x 4).

I know one person on the Tulsa group that frequents sporting events.

[Cindy]

Yeah, but it comes out of your tithes. :thumbsup

Yep, it comes out of the minister's tithes. And they can also give the rest of their tithes to the assembly. Or another org. So then they have no more money I guess.
Or maybe they can keep the other 90%.

[chseeads]

Actually....$240 (60 x 4).

I know one person on the Tulsa group that frequents sporting events.

$60 per month contributed no a quarterly basis.....

[pentecostisalive]

Very interesting.

Why do you think that they omitted any reference to the new birth doctrine?

I would have expected a clear statement of the water and Spirit doctrine, which is strangely absent.

5. One becomes the recipient of God’s gift of salvation by obeying the command given on the birthday of the church: “Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call,” (Acts 2:38,39). Repentance (Luke 13:3; Acts 2:38; Luke 24:47), being baptized (immersed) in water in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:6). and being filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:6) was the normative experience in the New Testament and are the essential elements of initial salvation.

All believers in scripture were defined as:

1. Filled or baptized with the Spirit: This was the norm, not the exception (Acts 19:1-6) and was considered standard and essential to being included in Christ and his kingdom (Romans 8:9). By one Spirit are we all baptized into one body (I Corinthians 12:13)

2. Buried with Christ in water baptism: In Paul’s writing, baptism was the point at which official initiation into Christ was ascertained to have taken place (Colossians 2:11-14). Repentance and baptism provides for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

[Maple Leaf]

5. One becomes the recipient of God’s gift of salvation by obeying the command given on the birthday of the church: “Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call,” (Acts 2:38,39). Repentance (Luke 13:3; Acts 2:38; Luke 24:47), being baptized (immersed) in water in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:6). and being filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:6) was the normative experience in the New Testament and are the essential elements of initial salvation.

All believers in scripture were defined as:

1. Filled or baptized with the Spirit: This was the norm, not the exception (Acts 19:1-6) and was considered standard and essential to being included in Christ and his kingdom (Romans 8:9). By one Spirit are we all baptized into one body (I Corinthians 12:13)

2. Buried with Christ in water baptism: In Paul’s writing, baptism was the point at which official initiation into Christ was ascertained to have taken place (Colossians 2:11-14). Repentance and baptism provides for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

Exactly.

No explicit statement of the water and Spirit doctrine.

As a matter of fact, John 3:5 never appears among the dozens of references given.

[Walkbyfaith7]

Exactly.

No explicit statement of the water and Spirit doctrine.

As a matter of fact, John 3:5 never appears among the dozens of references given.

Did they address the trinity? I don't see that either. They really seem to have more of a oneness doctrine like TD Jakes in my opinion.

There is some language in there that the UPC really should get in their articles!

[Walkbyfaith7]

Will Haney go to this?

Is Haney against this?

Is this really a split from the UPCI?

[scotty]

Will Haney go to this?

I think he already is .

Is Haney against this?

see above

Is this really a split from the UPCI?

from your stand point of beliefs, No.


.

[Walkbyfaith7]

Seems like alot of these guys on the committees have been indenpendent for quite some time or had concerns with the direction the UPCI is going.

So you think Haney is going to be an official part of this?

Why would they need another organization? I see some pastors from Oregon on here. Maybe I'll give them a ring.

[chseeads]

Don't give em a ring, they don't believe in em.... :p

[Walkbyfaith7]

Don't give em a ring, they don't believe in em.... :p

lol

Ok I'll phone them :)

[TRFrance]

"Hollywood style movies"... ?

Do Disney movies count?
Pocahontas.. The Incredibles... Finding Nemo... Beauty and the Beast... Robin Hood?
Where do we draw the line?

"Worldly sports"...?
Watching the Super Bowl is a sin then?
Suppose I watch the Highlights on YouTube a few days later, is that a sin too?

But what is worldly sports exactly? Pro sports... College sports, High School sports... at what point does it become worldly?

Television?
Suppose I watch some documentaries on Google video that had been shown on TV previously... is that a sin?

What if I go to cnn.com, or msnbc.com to read a news story, then I click on a link that shows some streaming video related to the story... is THAT a violation?

Where do we draw the line?? :groan

HEEEELLP!!!!


Somebody needs to tell these people... you cannot legislate holiness.

...

[StillStanding]

"Hollywood style movies"... ?

Do Disney movies count?
Pocahontas.. The Incredibles... Finding Nemo... Beauty and the Beast... Robin Hood?
Where do we draw the line?

"Worldly sports"...?
Watching the Super Bowl is a sin then?
Suppose I watch the Highlights on YouTube a few days later, is that a sin too?

But what is worldly sports exactly? Pro sports... College sports, High School sports... at what point does it become worldly?


Suppose I watch some documentaries on Google video that had been shown on TV previously... is that a sin?

What if I go to cnn.com, or msnbc.com to read a news story, then I click on a link that shows some streaming video related to the story... is THAT a violation?

Where do we draw the line?? :groan

HEEEELLP!!!!


Somebody needs to tell these people... you cannot legislate holiness.

...

AMEN!!!!

[dizzyde]

Will Haney go to this?

I highly doubt it!!! Or to be more specific, NO.
Is Haney against this??

Well, he hasn't called me up personally to tell me, but I can't imagine he is happy about it!
Is this really a split from the UPCI?

Yes, no matter what the protests to the contrary have been, everything they are doing now confirms it.

I'm not sure what Scotty is talking about (???), but KH will not be part of this organization.

[TrmptPraise]

I highly doubt it!!! Or to be more specific, NO.


Well, he hasn't called me up personally to tell me, but I can't imagine he is happy about it!


Yes, no matter what the protests to the contrary have been, everything they are doing now confirms it.

I'm not sure what Scotty is talking about (???), but KH will not be part of this organization.

Agreed. KH has already issued a letter (posted on this forum) that stated "and also discourage any of our brethren from going to the Tulsa event."

So, he does not agree with it nor does he intend to attend.

[AGAPE]

I think that they were loose on one major issue....
other than that it is well written....
clearly Oneness with the Biblical new birth (acts 2:38)

[Walkbyfaith7]

I highly doubt it!!! Or to be more specific, NO.


Well, he hasn't called me up personally to tell me, but I can't imagine he is happy about it!


Yes, no matter what the protests to the contrary have been, everything they are doing now confirms it.

I'm not sure what Scotty is talking about (???), but KH will not be part of this organization.

Thanks for your honest/sincere answers.
I appreciate that.

[chseeads]

I think that they were loose on one major issue....
other than that it is well written....
clearly Oneness with the Biblical new birth (acts 2:38)

What were they loose on?

[SoCaliUPC]

I find it hilarious that they want to reach the world with every resource available...except TV. If you show services on an internet where every type of sin can be found with a couple clicks....what is the difference of using a TV to do the same thing (noting that what is found on the internet is 100x more worse than what is on TV.....one is regulated one is not.)?

The breakdown of worldly amusement....shocks me that a couple people whose names are on some WPF boards attend professional sports games. Reminds me of the time we were at a sectional event and this pastor got up and preached going to baseball games was a sin....I mean preaching hard about it. 2 days later...My dad, brother and I were at the game and who walks down the aisle....said pastor. I wanted so bad to go over and say Bro. ______, great message the other night.

[SoCaliUPC]

As for Haney's involvement in this or attendance at this event.....I can tell you he will not be attending. Furthermore, he wrote a letter that was sent out (and posted on this forum) discouraging ministers from attending.

[Walkbyfaith7]

As for Haney's involvement in this or attendance at this event.....I can tell you he will not be attending. Furthermore, he wrote a letter that was sent out (and posted on this forum) discouraging ministers from attending.

Thanks.

[scotty]

I highly doubt it!!! Or to be more specific, NO.


Well, he hasn't called me up personally to tell me, but I can't imagine he is happy about it!


Yes, no matter what the protests to the contrary have been, everything they are doing now confirms it.

I'm not sure what Scotty is talking about (???), but KH will not be part of this organization.

thought I had seen that on another forum, seems someone was bashing KH for going with them and someone else was defending him.

But you know how forums can be :ouch

[Coonskinner]

I find it hilarious that they want to reach the world with every resource available...except TV. If you show services on an internet where every type of sin can be found with a couple clicks....what is the difference of using a TV to do the same thing (noting that what is found on the internet is 100x more worse than what is on TV.....one is regulated one is not.)?

The breakdown of worldly amusement....shocks me that a couple people whose names are on some WPF boards attend professional sports games. Reminds me of the time we were at a sectional event and this pastor got up and preached going to baseball games was a sin....I mean preaching hard about it. 2 days later...My dad, brother and I were at the game and who walks down the aisle....said pastor. I wanted so bad to go over and say Bro. ______, great message the other night.

Man, I don't know why you didn't just get right up and go right over there and tell him.:reaction

[stmatthew]

My personal view is that this is a UPCI #2. While the names have been changed to protect the inniocent, I really doubt it will be any better than the UPC.

[Timmy]

"WPF". I love that -- sounds like a wrestling organization. (And it will be, I'm sure! :lol)

Don't miss the WPF Smackdown!! On Pay-Per-View!! :toofunny

[SoCaliUPC]

Man, I don't know why you didn't just get right up and go right over there and tell him.:reaction

Because I was a young person. I was about 14. It was just something you didn't do. Now....I probably would have done it. I can disagree with something you say AND if you are living that way I can respect it (i.e. Preaching against going to baseball, football games, etc. and you don't attend or watch them). However, if you preach one thing and go live the same thing you are preaching people to hell over....um, yeah, I have a problem with that.

[Timmy]

The believer abstains from purveyors of all such, including, but not limited to, prurient print material, unclean musical acts and songs, and musical productions (I Corinthians 15:33), Hollywood-style movies, and television, worldly sports, improper internet content, and all other forms and mediums of such (Deuteronomy 7:26).

Mediums? The internet is a medium used for improper content, yes? Not to mention books and magazines. I think they need to hammer out some details in this document.

[Coonskinner]

Because I was a young person. I was about 14. It was just something you didn't do. Now....I probably would have done it. I can disagree with something you say AND if you are living that way I can respect it (i.e. Preaching against going to baseball, football games, etc. and you don't attend or watch them). However, if you preach one thing and go live the same thing you are preaching people to hell over....um, yeah, I have a problem with that.

Me too, Soc.

Me too.

[Walkbyfaith7]

"WPF". I love that -- sounds like a wrestling organization. (And it will be, I'm sure! :lol)

Don't miss the WPF Smackdown!! On Pay-Per-View!! :toofunny

LOL This is great.

I can see something is the future here:

A doctrinal debate and WPF, UPCI smackdown!

haha

Would it be advertised on TV? :shhh

[scotty]

LOL This is great.

I can see something is the future here:

A doctrinal debate and WPF, UPCI smackdown!

haha

Would it be advertised on TV? :shhh


Looks like there was truth in my words after all, huh brother.:bored

I'm proud of you, at least your wearing your colors now.

[Walkbyfaith7]

Looks like there was truth in my words after all, huh brother.:bored

I'm proud of you, at least your wearing your colors now.

I would pay money to attend this, yes. Nothing wrong with that. There have been a number of debates trinity/oneness that are fun/interesting to watch.

I watched one of the Ankerburg show....wow that was pretty interesting.

[scotty]

I would pay money to attend this, yes. Nothing wrong with that. There have been a number of debates trinity/oneness that are fun/interesting to watch.

I watched one of the Ankerburg show....wow that was pretty interesting.

Why would you pay money to see a christian organization take it self apart? Why would you find the demise of christian unity being torn apart "entertaining"?

I believe we have new low. Not even DA would say something like that.

[Walkbyfaith7]

Why would you pay money to see a christian organization take it self apart? Why would you find the demise of christian unity being torn apart "entertaining"?

I believe we have new low. Not even DA would say something like that.



Sorry but I don't believe that the UPC is the final organization or only organization that has the principles of God.

It's the traditions of man and holiness issues that are tearing apart the church
organization today. Even so, debates and personal 'convictions' have always caused people to leave and new organizations to start or organizations to merge.

If you studied history-you'll find alot of this happens AND it will continue to happen in the future.

The church of Jesus is not one organization and quite frankly organizations often get in the way of what the Lord really wants to do.

I think often times people have a problem with being in power. There should be not one leader but a panel that leads or maybe even the saints should be able to vote on things too. It shouldn't be a hierarchy.

In my opinion.

[Wink]

The latent causes of faction are thus sown in the nature of man; and we see them everywhere brought into different degrees of activity, according to the different circumstances of civil society. A zeal for different opinions concerning religion, concerning government, and many other points, as well of speculation as of practice; an attachment to different leaders ambitiously contending for pre-eminence and power; or to persons of other descriptions whose fortunes have been interesting to the human passions, have, in turn, divided mankind into parties, inflamed them with mutual animosity, and rendered them much more disposed to vex and oppress each other than to co-operate for their common good. So strong is this propensity of mankind to fall into mutual animosities, that where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions and excite their most violent conflicts.

James Madison


Human Spirit?

[ChicagoPastor]

The articles of faith for WPF are now posted at:

http://www.worldwidepf.com/page.php?ID=29

I really think that they are very well done. It doesn't have as much room for personal interpretation, and I think that is a good thing.

Hmmm, so where are all you Con's who said these guys weren't going to form another Organization????

Yea, this sounds like just a good little fellowship meeting :toofunny

[TrmptPraise]

Hmmm, so where are all you Con's who said these guys weren't going to form another Organization????

Yea, this sounds like just a good little fellowship meeting :toofunny

Yes, I believe that ship has long left the harbor.

[ChicagoPastor]

This post might get me in trouble but
Didn't Johnny Godair say he wasn't leaving the UPC? Didn't he tell preachers at different conferences that he wasn't going anywhere??
Didn't Booker say he had no intention of starting another organization?
Wasn't it said that Wilson would NEVER leave the UPC?
Haven't A LOT of them said things that have now been proven to be untrue?

What do you call it when people say one thing and then do another?
hmm...

I'm calling out all you Tulsa defenders! A few months ago, you guys wanted to pretend like nothing was going on but just a simple fellowship of "like minded" ministers....what do you have to say now?

deception, sounds like a good word to me.

[TRFrance]

This post might get me in trouble but
Didn't Johnny Godair say he wasn't leaving the UPC?
Didn't Booker say he had no intention of starting another organization?
Have A LOT of them said things that are now untrue?

What do you call people that say one thing and then do another?
hmm...


Doesnt mean they lied, if that's what you're trying to imply
Maybe they just changed their minds over time.

[Ferd]

The latent causes of faction are thus sown in the nature of man; and we see them everywhere brought into different degrees of activity, according to the different circumstances of civil society. A zeal for different opinions concerning religion, concerning government, and many other points, as well of speculation as of practice; an attachment to different leaders ambitiously contending for pre-eminence and power; or to persons of other descriptions whose fortunes have been interesting to the human passions, have, in turn, divided mankind into parties, inflamed them with mutual animosity, and rendered them much more disposed to vex and oppress each other than to co-operate for their common good. So strong is this propensity of mankind to fall into mutual animosities, that where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions and excite their most violent conflicts.

James Madison


Human Spirit?

I like Wink!

[ChicagoPastor]

Doesnt mean they lied, if that's what you're trying to imply
Maybe they just changed their minds over time.

:toofunny :toofunny :toofunny :toofunny
yea, that's all that happened. They just changed there minds...LOL

[StillStanding]

The latent causes of faction are thus sown in the nature of man; and we see them everywhere brought into different degrees of activity, according to the different circumstances of civil society. A zeal for different opinions concerning religion, concerning government, and many other points, as well of speculation as of practice; an attachment to different leaders ambitiously contending for pre-eminence and power; or to persons of other descriptions whose fortunes have been interesting to the human passions, have, in turn, divided mankind into parties, inflamed them with mutual animosity, and rendered them much more disposed to vex and oppress each other than to co-operate for their common good. So strong is this propensity of mankind to fall into mutual animosities, that where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions and excite their most violent conflicts.

James Madison


Human Spirit?

Co-operate for their common good? :lol

[KarenJo]

Will Haney go to this?

Is Haney against this?

Is this really a split from the UPCI?

Bro. Haney is scheduled to be home in Stockton for Landmark the Dates are Jan 22-25 and the Summit is Jan 24-25....

[scotty]

:toofunny :toofunny :toofunny :toofunny
yea, that's all that happened. They just changed there minds...LOL

Why are there some who seem to enjoy or "entertain" themselves with christian disunity?

Is the woes of a christian organization "entertaining" to you? Does hardship within the body of Christ please you? Are you really that shallow? Do you lack the love of Christ so much that this low is all you have left? Oh, and let me guess, this demeaning attitude is a sign of the salvation you have? Now there is something to laugh at.

[Pastor Keith]

This post might get me in trouble but
Didn't Johnny Godair say he wasn't leaving the UPC? Didn't he tell preachers at different conferences that he wasn't going anywhere??
Didn't Booker say he had no intention of starting another organization?
Wasn't it said that Wilson would NEVER leave the UPC?
Haven't A LOT of them said things that have now been proven to be untrue?

What do you call it when people say one thing and then do another?
hmm...

I'm calling out all you Tulsa defenders! A few months ago, you guys wanted to pretend like nothing was going on but just a simple fellowship of "like minded" ministers....what do you have to say now?

deception, sounds like a good word to me.


well according to some definitions that some on here espouse, it's called false prophecy and that would make them a false prophet.

[Walkbyfaith7]

:toofunny :toofunny :toofunny :toofunny
yea, that's all that happened. They just changed there minds...LOL

I think some had it in the back of their minds for a while and I can't see why they would leave.

You can't advertise on TV and then say it's wrong to own one and not either make some people mad or confused.

[freeatlast]

(II Kings 9:3) dyes, and any other artifice, as well as immodest apparel, are viewed as attempts to artificially induce beauty


I can't figure out how they get dyes from out of II Kings 9:3 ????

[stmatthew]

This post might get me in trouble but
Didn't Johnny Godair say he wasn't leaving the UPC? Didn't he tell preachers at different conferences that he wasn't going anywhere??
Didn't Booker say he had no intention of starting another organization?
Wasn't it said that Wilson would NEVER leave the UPC?
Haven't A LOT of them said things that have now been proven to be untrue?

What do you call it when people say one thing and then do another?
hmm...

I'm calling out all you Tulsa defenders! A few months ago, you guys wanted to pretend like nothing was going on but just a simple fellowship of "like minded" ministers....what do you have to say now?

deception, sounds like a good word to me.

I posted on this recently in the Tab. Initially, as I understood it, there was originally only going to be a loose fellowship. Over time, that turned into a license for those leaving UPC, and a fellowship card for those staying UPC. The end result (which may have been in the mind of the organizers initially) is that the WFP is a bona fide organization complete with diverse departments.

As far as who was staying or going, I have never commented on, as I have heard to many conflicting versions.

[Walkbyfaith7]

Here it lists their part of their intent:

The Preamble of the Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship is an articulation of its general intent and purpose. The formation of WPF is an outgrowth of the changing times and directions within the North American apostolic movement and is the result of a constellation of events and decisions which have shaped apostolic direction for some time—some, we fear, for the worse, and ours hopefully for the better.

[freeatlast]

(Isaiah 3:16-24 RSV, I Peter 3:1-5) and replace the lost glow of God’s glory as seen in the face of the believer as well as in the heavens. All this is scripturally associated with Jezebel, who is both an Old Testament

If they want to use this verse they need to keep it in context.
vs 24 says instead of perfume there will be rotteness " .... OK ladies dab a dead carp under your arms.

and instead of wearing a belt you are commanded to wear a rope.

and then instead of well set hair, baldness.......well there you have it..you ladies are commanded to quit fixin your hair and shave it bald !!


Doncha just lone the inconsistency of scripture used to try to impose "holiness doctrines" on people

[Wink]

simply put it is in mans nature to create factions. Simply raising the possibility that some human spirit could be involved.

Just a quick count....i have personally ministered for 11 of the people on the board/committee
and consider some of them good friends. I would hope that the motivation for this is based more
on a true leading of the Holy Ghost than a personal desire or issue.

I also hope that the proponents of the proposition pushed that agenda based on a true God given
burden to further evangelize the world and not to create a paradigm shift in the fellowship.

I personally am saddened by what looks like a splintering in our fellowship. As i said in an earlier post i guess the apostolic hospital is out of the question now unless we have different wards..tv rooms...no tv rooms I can hear the board of directors now trying to sort this out. Are stethoscopes

considered jewelry? Nurses wear hair up or down...splits no splits the list goes on and on.

This may seem a little far fetched but the sad matter is all of the other denominations have hospitals......... but this is more than just about hospitals.

So many towns i go to i have to hear how bad the neighboring pastor is..he's too loose....he's a radical....the devil loves this.

He dont have to cut our heads off and put us in prison when he can divide the people of the name.

Max Lucado wrote in one of his books about he and his brothers and dad going on a fishing trip.
They rented a cabin on the lake and the first day it rained them out. They had a great time playing games, eating popcorn and watching the fire.

The second day it rained even harder and by the end of the day they became bored and then started disagreements which escalated into fights and arguments.

the moral of the story

IF YOU DONT FISH YOU FIGHT!!!

[MissBrattified]

The latent causes of faction are thus sown in the nature of man; and we see them everywhere brought into different degrees of activity, according to the different circumstances of civil society. A zeal for different opinions concerning religion, concerning government, and many other points, as well of speculation as of practice; an attachment to different leaders ambitiously contending for pre-eminence and power; or to persons of other descriptions whose fortunes have been interesting to the human passions, have, in turn, divided mankind into parties, inflamed them with mutual animosity, and rendered them much more disposed to vex and oppress each other than to co-operate for their common good. So strong is this propensity of mankind to fall into mutual animosities, that where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions and excite their most violent conflicts.

James Madison


Human Spirit?

What a great quote! I love that. So true...about human nature.

As i said in an earlier post i guess the apostolic hospital is out of the question now unless we have different wards..tv rooms...no tv rooms I can hear the board of directors now trying to sort this out. Are stethoscopes

considered jewelry? Nurses wear hair up or down...splits no splits the list goes on and on.

:heeheehee

[ChicagoPastor]

I posted on this recently in the Tab. Initially, as I understood it, there was originally only going to be a loose fellowship. Over time, that turned into a license for those leaving UPC, and a fellowship card for those staying UPC. The end result (which may have been in the mind of the organizers initially) is that the WFP is a bona fide organization complete with diverse departments.

As far as who was staying or going, I have never commented on, as I have heard to many conflicting versions.

I just remember alll the "Tulsa defenders" posting that some of us were blowing the whole thing out of proportion...yada yada yada


I do not believe that the organizers have not just changed their mind and decided to make it an organization. This was their intent all along and those they tried to convince us that this was not true have either been decieved or are part of the deception.

[Coonskinner]

I just remember alll the "Tulsa defenders" posting that some of us were blowing the whole thing out of proportion...yada yada yada


I do not believe that the organizers have not just changed their mind and decided to make it an organization. This was their intent all along and those they tried to convince us that this was not true have either been decieved or are part of the deception.

It must be nice to be able to read the hearts of men over the internet.

I think this thing has evolved since it first started.

I believe the original intent of most of them or at least some of them was to remain in the UPC.

Over time, it became increasingly clear that it would not be feasible.

You are pretty bold to call those men liars, plainly and unabashedly.

If you just happen to be wrong, guess what that makes you?

An accuser of the brethren, and a false accuser at that.

There is already one of those, and he doesn't need your help.

[ChicagoPastor]

It must be nice to be able to read the hearts of men over the internet.

I think this thing has evolved since it first started.

I believe the original intent of most of them or at least some of them was to remain in the UPC.

Over time, it became increasingly clear that it would not be feasible.

You are pretty bold to call those men liars, plainly and unabashedly.

If you just happen to be wrong, guess what that makes you?

An accuser of the brethren, and a false accuser at that.

There is already one of those, and he doesn't need your help.

Awww, how cute. You're still defending them!

You think I'm gonna be wrong? I'm an accuser and a false one? They're not going to start a new org? You must not be keeping up with "Tulsa News"
keep believing what you want, the rest of us we'll just believe what the WPF keeps posting on their website.

I believe that some of the ministers, didn't plan on leaving the UPC at first...but the organizers knew what they were doing from the beginning.

IF I'm an accuser of the brethern, what are you?
I never called them liars, I just pointed out some interesting points. Don't put words in my mouth :) because then that makes YOU the accuser.

[Rev]

It must be nice to be able to read the hearts of men over the internet.

I think this thing has evolved since it first started.

I believe the original intent of most of them or at least some of them was to remain in the UPC.

Over time, it became increasingly clear that it would not be feasible.

You are pretty bold to call those men liars, plainly and unabashedly.

If you just happen to be wrong, guess what that makes you?

An accuser of the brethren, and a false accuser at that.

There is already one of those, and he doesn't need your help.

Do all coonhunter present and past just like to tell it like it is, or does the Holy Ghost do that to us but not to all?

[Rev]

(Joh 21:22) Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

[Coonskinner]

Awww, how cute. You're still defending them!

You think I'm gonna be wrong? I'm an accuser and a false one? They're not going to start a new org? You must not be keeping up with "Tulsa News"
keep believing what you want, the rest of us we'll just believe what the WPF keeps posting on their website.

I believe that some of the ministers, didn't plan on leaving the UPC at first...but the organizers knew what they were doing from the beginning.

IF I'm an accuser of the brethern, what are you?
I never called them liars, I just pointed out some interesting points. Don't put words in my mouth :) because then that makes YOU the accuser.

Of course they are starting an organozation.

The question is, did this evolve, or did they lie?

I refuse to believe the worst until I have to.

[Coonskinner]

I do not believe that the organizers have not just changed their mind and decided to make it an organization. This was their intent all along and those they tried to convince us that this was not true have either been decieved or are part of the deception.

This looks like you are saying it pretty plainly.

[Coonskinner]

Do all coonhunter present and past just like to tell it like it is, or does the Holy Ghost do that to us but not to all?

I don't know...lol

[ChicagoPastor]

Of course they are starting an organozation.

The question is, did this evolve, or did they lie?

I refuse to believe the worst until I have to.

Of course it evolved....the question is when??????
I believe this starting evolving at least a year or two ago when people were wearing "I'm a concerned Conservative Apostolic" pins at GC.

There is no way that these men have put together a complete organization, tax exempt status, headquarters, departments and all just since October.

I have a few ultra con friends and they have told me that this new organzation was being talked about between ministers at the East Coast Conference....some of the things that are now becoming public were being discussed back then....

[TRFrance]

I'm reminded of when Jesus said plainly to Judas... "whatsoever thou doest, do it quickly". And that's the same thing I'd say to these folks.

No, I'm not trying to imply that they're "Judas-like". But I'm saying if they're going to break away then they should just make a clean break and let the rest of us move on. This whole episode has been dragged out for too long.

I'm looking forward to this just being over, so the UPC can see whats left/who's left, and we'll just move on from there. This thing has been a distraction for too long.

...

[ChicagoPastor]

This looks like you are saying it pretty plainly.

The word you accused me of using is not in that post. :search

[Bullwinkle]

Worked my way through the articles of faith.
They need an editor.
How come they are wishy washy on new birth?
I thought Ruth R. must have written the holiness section. A lot of blatherspeak.

[Hoovie]

My personal view is that this is a UPCI #2. While the names have been changed to protect the inniocent, I really doubt it will be any better than the UPC.

uhhh... the UPC is not a bad thing...

having said that I don't see how they did nor will address the concerns over which they disfellowshipped the UPC.

[Rev]

Of course it evolved....the question is when??????
I believe this starting evolving at least a year or two ago when people were wearing "I'm a concerned Conservative Apostolic" pins at GC.

There is no way that these men have put together a complete organization, tax exempt status, headquarters, departments and all just since October.

I have a few ultra con friends and they have told me that this new organzation was being talked about between ministers at the East Coast Conference....some of the things that are now becoming public were being discussed back then....

I have read several of your post about Tulsa. I would say that you are very angry and bitter at those men. This will not hurt them, but it could sure cause you some trouble.

[pelathais]

The statement concerning "The Word" and "Jesus Christ" show a surprising level of sophistication. At least it's surprising to me. Maybe I'm just a pessimist, but I don't expect to find any "good stuff" when I read these things.

So "kudos" to T. French and team for addressing an issue that has always been nagging at me. At least I think I discern the handiwork of T. French here. Whoever it is, good job... This time!

[ChicagoPastor]

I have read several of your post about Tulsa. I would say that you are very angry and bitter at those men. This will not hurt them, but it could sure cause you some trouble.

nah, I'm not angry or bitter at all. Your assesment is incorrect. I actually have a few friends going that way, and I respect their convictions.

There was just quite a few of people that post on here that have been defending this group, now known as the WPF.

Thad, myself, and others were told that we were blowing out of proportion what was happening. That this was just going to be a 'loose fellowship' of like minded men and nothing more. Some laughed at us,

it turns out we were right :)

[Hoovie]

The statement concerning "The Word" and "Jesus Christ" show a surprising level of sophistication. At least it's surprising to me. Maybe I'm just a pessimist, but I don't expect to find any "good stuff" when I read these things.

So "kudos" to T. French and team for addressing an issue that has always been nagging at me. At least I think I discern the handiwork of T. French here. Whoever it is, good job... This time!

French. But what is he doing there? I guess I don't get it.


Also, I saw a Treece on the list. Is he a brain like Marvin?

[TRFrance]

The statement concerning "The Word" and "Jesus Christ" show a surprising level of sophistication. At least it's surprising to me. Maybe I'm just a pessimist, but I don't expect to find any "good stuff" when I read these things.

So "kudos" to T. French and team for addressing an issue that has always been nagging at me. At least I think I discern the handiwork of T. French here. Whoever it is, good job... This time!

Gee... skeptical aren't we?

Many of these men have been in ministry 30-40+ years and have an extensive knowledge of the Bible.

So it shouldn't be surprising that they can give a good biblical definition/explanation of "The Word", and "Jesus Christ".

The definitions they gave were solid and fairly thorough, but I wouldn't think it displays a "surprising level of sophistication". These men are not biblical/theological lightweights, even though we might disagree with them on certain issues.

...

[Barb]

nah, I'm not angry or bitter at all. Your assesment is incorrect. I actually have a few friends going that way, and I respect their convictions.

There was just quite a few of people that post on here that have been defending this group, now known as the WPF.

Thad, myself, and others were told that we were blowing out of proportion what was happening. That this was just going to be a 'loose fellowship' of like minded men and nothing more. Some laughed at us,

it turns out we were right :)

CP, sometimes it happens that some people just cannot imagine the worse case scenario...go figure.

One of my brothers pastors in central IL, and told me from the outset that the speculation of it (the withdrawing of so many) being more than a handful was just that...specualtion.

He of course has changed his tune and is distressed at what is happening.

That is not said to cast a shadow on the naysayers, God love 'em...we need more men and women who won't believe and receive a bad report.

But in this case, it seems that it is far greater than any of first thought.

So, don't be so hard on these folks, CP...

[Walkbyfaith7]

Wow- I called and found out that my pastors dad and a brother left the UPCI over this and are in the WPF now.

[Hesetmefree238]

Of course it evolved....the question is when??????
I believe this starting evolving at least a year or two ago when people were wearing "I'm a concerned Conservative Apostolic" pins at GC.

There is no way that these men have put together a complete organization, tax exempt status, headquarters, departments and all just since October.



Exactly, you cannot put together the framework for an organization in that
period of time. This appears to have been in the works for some time.

[Nahum]

Hmmm, so where are all you Con's who said these guys weren't going to form another Organization????

Yea, this sounds like just a good little fellowship meeting :toofunny

Exactly!

Remember back in October when we were told they had no intention of forming an organization? Prominent members of this board tried very hard to call the rest of us liars when we pointed out their intentions.

Tell me, were they lying then, or just horribly mistaken and blind?

[Nahum]

Of course they are starting an organozation.

The question is, did this evolve, or did they lie?

I refuse to believe the worst until I have to.

Okay Friend, I love you - but I'm gonna call your hand on this one.

Remember our little conversation from October?

Remember all of those posts and the banning I received for this same issue?

Well, the truth comes marching home BRo.

Are you really going to tell me these guys didn't have this in mind?

Are you really gonna tell me they haven't been planning this since before conference?

Please....don't insult my intelligence.

:drama

[Walkbyfaith7]

Exactly, you cannot put together the framework for an organization in that
period of time. This appears to have been in the works for some time.


I agree this took alot of work and commitment from people and it evident by all the departments already staffed, wow.

[Nahum]

This post might get me in trouble but
Didn't Johnny Godair say he wasn't leaving the UPC? Didn't he tell preachers at different conferences that he wasn't going anywhere??
Didn't Booker say he had no intention of starting another organization?
Wasn't it said that Wilson would NEVER leave the UPC?
Haven't A LOT of them said things that have now been proven to be untrue?

What do you call it when people say one thing and then do another?
hmm...

I'm calling out all you Tulsa defenders! A few months ago, you guys wanted to pretend like nothing was going on but just a simple fellowship of "like minded" ministers....what do you have to say now?

deception, sounds like a good word to me.
You tell 'em Tony.

I remember the same conversations.

It was, and is, deception - pure and simple.

I don't understand why my good friends are defending this behavior.

[retsambeW]

Okay Friend, I love you - but I'm gonna call your hand on this one.

Remember our little conversation from October?

Remember all of those posts and the banning I received for this same issue?

Well, the truth comes marching home BRo.

Are you really going to tell me these guys didn't have this in mind?

Are you really gonna tell me they haven't been planning this since before conference?

Please....don't insult my intelligence.

:drama

I would never try to insult your intelligence. I might on accident, but try? :D

All I was asking for was time to do it's work. It has, hasn't it?

[Nahum]

Why are there some who seem to enjoy or "entertain" themselves with christian disunity?

Is the woes of a christian organization "entertaining" to you? Does hardship within the body of Christ please you? Are you really that shallow? Do you lack the love of Christ so much that this low is all you have left? Oh, and let me guess, this demeaning attitude is a sign of the salvation you have? Now there is something to laugh at.
C'mon IAM, I mean Scotty.

Your post is way out of line and akin to a personal attack.

These guys said they weren't starting an org and did.

How can you, or anyone else, defend this?

[Nahum]

I would never try to insult your intelligence. I might on accident, but try? :D

All I was asking for was time to do it's work. It has, hasn't it?
Time has already proven the deception.

What more proof do you need?

[mizpeh]

You tell 'em Tony.

I remember the same conversations.

It was, and is, deception - pure and simple.

I don't understand why my good friends are defending this behavior.

Maybe they are being made to feel like they have eaten gravel.

[retsambeW]

Time has already proven the deception.

What more proof do you need?

Thank you for repeating what I said. It does indeed appear to be deception.

I am saddened that a couple of names on the lists provided apparently either have little knowledge of what is going on, or outright lied to me. I am trying to pull together what has happened in my own mind, because if we go by appearances, this looks very, very pre-planned.

Apologies to you for our earlier disagreements.

[Nahum]

Maybe they are being made to feel like they have eaten gravel.
I don't think they do, as they still try to defend this behavior and pull the wool over our eyes.

Look folks, I couldn't care less if they start an org. I hope they are enormously successful.

But please...deception and lying is still sin.

Don't defend these guys.

[Nahum]

Thank you for repeating what I said. It does indeed appear to be deception.

I am saddened that a couple of names on the lists provided apparently either have little knowledge of what is going on, or outright lied to me. I am trying to pull together what has happened in my own mind, because if we go by appearances, this looks very, very pre-planned.

Apologies to you for our earlier disagreements.

Hey, no problem.:search

I just don't like it when people question my integrity over stating the obvious.

(not that you have)

[retsambeW]

Hey, no problem.:search

I just don't like it when people question my integrity over stating the obvious.

(not that you have)

I certainly have not tried to, any way.

It was my intention to go to Tulsa for two reasons. One to please a friend who assures me it would not be an ANTI-UPC gathering. He wants to prove it to me. The other being, I just wanted to see for myself. It will be an historical meeting in Pentecostal circles. I am more in line with some of those men where other issues are concerned, and it would have been educational, and would have helped my perception.

Finances have eclipsed the need to go. :D

Which, the way things are appearing, I would just end up dissapointed.

[ChicagoPastor]

Exactly!

Remember back in October when we were told they had no intention of forming an organization? Prominent members of this board tried very hard to call the rest of us liars when we pointed out their intentions.

Tell me, were they lying then, or just horribly mistaken and blind?

UH OH!!!!!
I hope Coonskinner doesn't read this. He's gonna get on you!
:stirpot



PP, thou speakest much truth.
How did I forget to include you in the list of people who also gave us early reports of the formation of this ORGANIZATION....oops I meant fellowship

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

I don't think they do, as they still try to defend this behavior and pull the wool over our eyes.

Look folks, I couldn't care less if they start an org. I hope they are enormously successful.

But please...deception and lying is still sin.

Don't defend these guys.

AMEN. I have had some UPCI preachers lie and deceive so much that it sickens me. Not saying they are all like that and they are supposed to be leaders and examples. They are the blind leading the blind no matter how it may look.

[ChicagoPastor]

Thank you for repeating what I said. It does indeed appear to be deception.

I am saddened that a couple of names on the lists provided apparently either have little knowledge of what is going on, or outright lied to me. I am trying to pull together what has happened in my own mind, because if we go by appearances, this looks very, very pre-planned.

Apologies to you for our earlier disagreements.

Dr.
What a great post this is!

Too bad OTHERS can't admit the same.

[Nahum]

UH OH!!!!!
I hope Coonskinner doesn't read this. He's gonna get on you!
:stirpot



PP, thou speakest much truth.
How did I forget to include you in the list of people who also gave us early reports of the formation of this ORGANIZATION....oops I meant fellowship

Naw, me and old Coonie are friends.:shhh Hope that doesn't hurt his rep! lol

We do disagree on this one though (and most things concerning LB).

[ChicagoPastor]

Dr. Flemming, I'm with you.
If I had the extra money, I'd go to Tulsa because it is historic.
If I would've been alive in the 60's I would've like to be at the meeting when the AMF was born and not because I agree with anything they're doing...but it is historic.

[staysharp]

Dr.
What a great post this is!

Too bad OTHERS can't admit the same.

These men would never admit to lying. They would say it was needful to keep the element of surprise because the devil might try and stop what God was trying to do.

These minds are not the minds of Christ. If the end justifies the means, they will stop at nothing to achieve their self-righteous goals.

[ChicagoPastor]

Since we're on the Tulsa topic.
Has anyone confirmed if Bro. Craft is with the WPF or not?

[SoCaliUPC]

Bro. Haney is scheduled to be home in Stockton for Landmark the Dates are Jan 22-25 and the Summit is Jan 24-25....

Immediately following Landmark, he will be in Southern California doing some things with the new SoCal District and preaching at our church that Sunday.

[staysharp]

Since we're on the Tulsa topic.
Has anyone confirmed if Bro. Craft is with the WPF or not?

The latest info is that he is. He is still listed on the brochures and on the web.

[retsambeW]

Dr. Flemming, I'm with you.
If I had the extra money, I'd go to Tulsa because it is historic.
If I would've been alive in the 60's I would've like to be at the meeting when the AMF was born and not because I agree with anything they're doing...but it is historic.

You do realize the "Dr." is a self-appointed title, right?


:D

[ChicagoPastor]

You do realize the "Dr." is a self-appointed title, right?


:D

But doesn't it feel good when someone uses it :happydance

[retsambeW]

These men would never admit to lying. They would say it was needful to keep the element of surprise because the devil might try and stop what God was trying to do.

These minds are not the minds of Christ. If the end justifies the means, they will stop at nothing to achieve their self-righteous goals.

I am not quite ready to go this far. Let's attack the obvious politics. Let's wait and see on the particular personalities.

I mean, it is obvious that where some of this is concerned, the left hand has no idea what the right hand is doing. How successful can it be?

[retsambeW]

But doesn't it feel good when someone uses it :happydance

If I had a "Thad Good List", you would definitely be on it! :D

[staysharp]

I am not quite ready to go this far. Let's attack the obvious politics. Let's wait and see on the particular personalities.

I mean, it is obvious that where some of this is concerned, the left hand has no idea what the right hand is doing. How successful can it be?

I speak from experience. Many years. Having said that, nothing good comes from political division among the body of Christ.

As far as I am concerned, politics has no place in the church.

[retsambeW]

I speak from experience. Many years. Having said that, nothing good comes from political division among the body of Christ.

As far as I am concerned, politics has no place in the church.

On this, at least, we agree. I am saddened at some of the way things are shaking out here.

[Nahum]

I speak from experience. Many years. Having said that, nothing good comes from political division among the body of Christ.

As far as I am concerned, politics has no place in the church.

Politics is a fact of life.

Politics are in every social setting imaginable - including the church. And that is the way it will be until Jesus comes.

That is the nature of people, and Jesus knew how to "play" the game of politics well.

Politics isn't always a bad thing.

[retsambeW]

Politics is a fact of life.

Politics are in every social setting imaginable - including the church. And that is the way it will be until Jesus comes.

That is the nature of people, and Jesus knew how to "play" the game of politics well.

Politics isn't always a bad thing.


Just because they are a natural offspring of the human condition doesn't mean we gotta like 'em. :D

None the less, they are real.

[Praxeas]

Especially if you are not a preterist....at this stage of the game when people believe Jesus is coming back soon, division and reforming new orgs is just a time consumer and major distraction

[mizpeh]

Politics is a fact of life.

Politics are in every social setting imaginable - including the church. And that is the way it will be until Jesus comes.

That is the nature of people, and Jesus knew how to "play" the game of politics well.

Politics isn't always a bad thing.

Are you sure Jesus played games? :stirpot

[retsambeW]

Are you sure Jesus played games? :stirpot

Oh, sure. Stir it up. :D

[staysharp]

Politics is a fact of life.

Politics are in every social setting imaginable - including the church. And that is the way it will be until Jesus comes.

That is the nature of people, and Jesus knew how to "play" the game of politics well.

Politics isn't always a bad thing.

Politics includes the following; deception, intimidation, lying, cheating, backstabbing, selfishness, pride, arrogance and on and on and on....our Lord knew no sin and neither was guile found in his mouth.

Sorry, I would vehemently disagree with your post. I know Jesus, He lives in me and He doesn't play mind games.

[Theophil]

Politics includes the following; deception, intimidation, lying, cheating, backstabbing, selfishness, pride, arrogance and on and on and on....our Lord knew no sin and neither was guile found in his mouth.

Sorry, I would vehemently disagree with your post. I know Jesus, He lives in me and He doesn't play mind games.

Staysharp, you are describing "dirty politics". Not all political activity is dirty. Maybe alot of it, maybe even most of it. Compromise and political activity can both be good if used to bring about unity and help people get along. JMO Jesus was being 'politic' when He spared the woman taken in adultery by saying what He said.

[staysharp]

Staysharp, you are describing "dirty politics". Not all political activity is dirty. Maybe alot of it, maybe even most of it. Compromise and political activity can both be good if used to bring about unity and help people get along. JMO Jesus was being 'politic' when He spared the woman taken in adultery by saying what He said.

Not all political activity is dirty? 99.95%...

[Wink]

99.95% of politicians give the rest of them a bad name

[staysharp]

99.95% of politicians give the rest of them a bad name

You got that right!

[pelathais]

Gee... skeptical aren't we?

Many of these men have been in ministry 30-40+ years and have an extensive knowledge of the Bible.

So it shouldn't be surprising that they can give a good biblical definition/explanation of "The Word", and "Jesus Christ".

The definitions they gave were solid and fairly thorough, but I wouldn't think it displays a "surprising level of sophistication". These men are not biblical/theological lightweights, even though we might disagree with them on certain issues.

...
I agree with you. Mine was a "happy" kind of surprised. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

And that language is really new to most Oneness Apostolic Articles of Faith. I haven't personally seen a lot of acknowledgement of the complexities within the Godhead since the PCI Manual from the 1930's and 1940's.

[Coonskinner]

The word you accused me of using is not in that post. :search


Deception and lying are synonyms.

Are you trying to be a legalist? ;)

[Coonskinner]

Exactly!

Remember back in October when we were told they had no intention of forming an organization? Prominent members of this board tried very hard to call the rest of us liars when we pointed out their intentions.

Tell me, were they lying then, or just horribly mistaken and blind?

We were inclined to believe what we were hearing then.

I am of the opinion that this has evolved into something beyond what the original intent was, at least for most of the men.

Maybe I am just gullible, but I don't lie.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I am not UC by any long shot but if these good men want their own organization I support their right to do so.
If God is in this ,we can't fight agains't but if God is not in this then it won't stand anyways

[ChicagoPastor]

We were inclined to believe what we were hearing then.

I am of the opinion that this has evolved into something beyond what the original intent was, at least for most of the men.

Maybe I am just gullible, but I don't lie.

Coonskinner, I don't think you're a liar.

I'll agree that a lot of people said that all it was going to be is a loose fellowship of like minded men...

however the organizers had other intentions. I already stated it once and so has PP, there is NO way that they could've pulled off everything they have if this was some last minute decision.
Are they bad men? no....but I don't think anyone that had knowledge of what was really going on had to minimize it and pretend (see that would is nicer that deceit) like this was just a little meeting.

[chseeads]

I am not UC by any long shot but if these good men want their own organization I support their right to do so.
If God is in this ,we can't fight agains't but if God is not in this then it won't stand anyways

As far as that goes, I don't think God even gives a hoot what organization anybody is in. :nobodycares

[Scott Hutchinson]

Yes some independents will be saved,and resurrected out.

[Rev]

As far as that goes, I don't think God even gives a hoot what organization anybody is in. :nobodycares

I'll amen that! But some of these guys are so mad and bitter about the ones pulling out. But they won't admit, not even to themselves.

[ChicagoPastor]

I'll amen that! But some of these guys are so mad and bitter about the ones pulling out. But they won't admit, not even to themselves.

lol
since you stated earlier that I am bitter, I'm going to assume you're including me in your most recent post :)

Please explain to me why I would be bitter? why would I be mad?
I think you're misreading my posts. I'm not bitter that they're leaving, but I'm happily pointing out that the WPF is more than the fellowship meeting it's defenders said it was going to be.

Tell you what let's ask a voice of reason if I'm bitter: Pastor Poster, do you think I'm bitter? Help us out here, Rev thinks I'm bitter and angry. I believe you to be a voice of reason. Judge the matter and get back to us. But hurry! I might be getting angrier and not even know it! :)

[Joseph Miller]

I think that the people on this forum that have stated the Tulsa group was just going to be a loose fellowship only repeated what they were told.

I believe that the founders knew what was the real intent the entire time but were smart enough to not let it out.

[retsambeW]

lol
since you stated earlier that I am bitter, I'm going to assume you're including me in your most recent post :)

Please explain to me why I would be bitter? why would I be mad?
I think you're misreading my posts. I'm not bitter that they're leaving, but I'm happily pointing out that the WPF is more than the fellowship meeting it's defenders said it was going to be.

Tell you what let's ask a voice of reason if I'm bitter: Pastor Poster, do you think I'm bitter? Help us out here, Rev thinks I'm bitter and angry. I believe you to be a voice of reason. Judge the matter and get back to us. But hurry! I might be getting angrier and not even know it! :)

Why we would be bitter, I don't know. Angry? Sure. If we are about to jump off a cliff as some claim, I am sure enough upset that brethren would jump ship and not try to keep us balanced.

Angry that a "I am taking my bat and ball and going home" spirit has divided the camp? Blame it on TV all ya want, it is about control. That is proven now, though I doubted it at first because of some of the good men on the lists.

Bitter, no. Angry...maybe too strong a word. Upset...very to the point.

[CC1]

I have only had time to read to page four of the thread but I think that $720.00 annual membership fee will help those on the fence about whether to join or not to not.

A lot of conservatives unhappy with the UPC would probably just go independent rather than fork out almost a thousand dollars a year to say they belong to another org. JMHO (I know Coonskinner has to be thinking of how much ammo and hunting gear $720 will buy!)

[Hoovie]

iv. I will refrain from publicly speaking or writing against any other apostolic/Pentecostal organization. However, I will take the liberty to oversee the local church which I pastor in accordance with God’s word and as God directs, without interference from anyone.

[Hoovie]

I have only had time to read to page four of the thread but I think that $720.00 annual membership fee will help those on the fence about whether to join or not to not.

A lot of conservatives unhappy with the UPC would probably just go independent rather than fork out almost a thousand dollars a year to say they belong to another org. JMHO (I know Coonskinner has to be thinking of how much ammo and hunting gear $720 will buy!)

Is this more or less than UPC fees?

Coon will love it, because it gives him reason to hunt more coons and sell their hides.

[ChicagoPastor]

Is this more or less than UPC fees?

Coon will love it, because it gives him reason to hunt more coons and sell their hides.

It's almost double the UPC's fees.
Ordination pays about 400 something
General about 380
and Local around 350

plus tithes and district dues............

[bishoph]

It's almost double the UPC's fees.
Ordination pays about 400 something
General about 380
and Local around 350

plus tithes and district dues............

It depends on the district you are licensed in. For example in the Western District, I know men who pay over $1300.00 to the district + their National dues. One of them stated that he would save close to $1000.00 if he switched.

[Michael The Disciple]

Seems like a huge waste of time to form another org just over whether a Church can advertise on TV. I notice they cannot help but promote the same old "immortal soul" error that is so entrenched in the post Apostolic times.

When a believer dies, their soul/spirit is conscious and alive, and immediately in the presence of God (II Corinthians 5:8).

With that said I see no need to bother around with the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead.

However THIS I do find interesting:

The Word is God self-revealing (John.1:1-3), God’s self-disclosure of himself (Hebrew1:1-3, Isaiah 9:6), God going out from himself (Revelation 5:6,7) God proceeding or emanating, the one whose “goings forth” have been from of old, from everlasting. (Micah 5:2 Revelation 1:8).

It would be nice to get away from the Old Pentecostal doctrine that the Word/Logos was merely a "thought in Gods mind". If the WORD is Gods emanation of himself that means God had an emanation or "visible image" of himself before Bethlehem. That brings modern Oneness teaching back into harmony with the Apostles teaching.

I hope thats their meaning. I would be surprised if it is truthfully.

Then a lot of trying to legislate holiness. We disapprove of this, that and the other thing. Of course the usual promoting of uncut hair to replace the Biblical doctrine of the veil as a covering for women.

I never noticed ANYTHING about the all important truth that the believer is to:

Be ye therefore perfect even as the Father in Heaven is perfect. Matt. 5:48

This is Jesus standard of holiness.

Lots of disappointment no hope that this could turn out to be a real New Testament Church.

[Steve Epley]

As far as that goes, I don't think God even gives a hoot what organization anybody is in. :nobodycares

My friend on this we certainly agree. ALL organization is man's attempt to further the work of God OR further themselves. However I really think the concept of organization as seen it Pentecost through the years has outlived it's day. Modern Technology and travel has it them obsolete.

[OneAccord]

Lots of disappointment no hope that this could turn out to be a real New Testament Church.

With no consenus among Pentecostal folks of what "a real New Testament church" would look like, I think people try to do the best they know how to do. I agree, we've got a ways to go to be, not a NT church, but the church Jesus spoke of in Matthew 16. A careful and honest look at the NT church shows it, as the present day church, had its problems. In fact, considering 1Cor. 1, the NT church was divided over an issue that still divides us today: Water Baptism. There was false doctrine in the church then, false teachers, sin, and, worst of all, division. Actually, it seems there isn't alot of difference between the church then and now.

So, to be the type of church Jesus spoke of, we have to go beyond the NT church. We have to go all the way back to Jesus, the Chief Cornerstone, to find a picture of God's Church. We can glean from Jesus' Words and the writings of the Apostles to see what God intended for His church, but, while the NT church seems to be closer than we are, it isn't an accurate description of the Church God intended. And, that may be the problem. We are trying so earnestly to pattern ourselves after the NT church, yet we overlook the fact that the NT church doesn't quite measure up to what God intended for His church to be. The NT church shouldn't be our pattern. The Bible says Jesus is our example. He is the pattern to follow.

[BHILL]

I'm wondering if there will be a "headquarters" church inTulsa. I only know of one independant pastor in Tulsa who is interested in the new organization and he has a real small church.I don't think G Howard is interested in joining up with these guys.Maybe Floyd Odom is going to start a church???

[stmatthew]

Exactly!

Remember back in October when we were told they had no intention of forming an organization? Prominent members of this board tried very hard to call the rest of us liars when we pointed out their intentions.

Tell me, were they lying then, or just horribly mistaken and blind?

Actually, if memory serves me correctly, you where the one that called others liars.



Friends, I have followed this from a little distance since GC. The word given at the beginning was that this was going to be a loose fellowship. This is the reason why many faught the proclamations that it would be an ORG. I have watched as informationally it evolved into what it now is.

WAS IT IN THE MINDS OF THE FOUNDERS TO MAKE IT AN ORG AT THE START?? I do not know, and none of you know for sure either. But the information out there at the start was that it would be a loose fellowship. IF it was in the minds of the organizers, they did not share it to quite a lot of conservative men that have plans on being a part of the Org.

[Steve Epley]

I'm wondering if there will be a "headquarters" church inTulsa. I only know of one independant pastor in Tulsa who is interested in the new organization and he has a real small church.I don't think G Howard is interested in joining up with these guys.Maybe Floyd Odom is going to start a church???

I saw Elder Howard at a funeral yesterday he is not interested at all. He is not anti but certainly has no intention to join.

[jrLA]

Is this more or less than UPC fees?

Coon will love it, because it gives him reason to hunt more coons and sell their hides.

For LA folks-WPF fees are higher then with the UPC!

[scotty]

I saw Elder Howard at a funeral yesterday he is not interested at all. He is not anti but certainly has no intention to join.

I know of 7 UPC pastors in my district that have no intrest in WPF.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Mizpeh
If you read the site you'll realize these folks want to hold the fort! The biggest complaints by other OP's is the lack of a defined "new birth" doctrine! IOW, They've gone "soft" on a basic doctrine!

Written by Believer aka all4Him:I think many OP's are realizing more and more that the hard stance is not biblical. The more we see the older hardcore OP preachers retired or die off, more educated younger preacher will take over. Pretty soon, they will be restored back within the ranks of the Trinity Doctrine.

One of the many things I don't like about OP churches, is that they can never get along enough to figure out what doctrines should they all follow. SOme believe that Jesus is God, while others don't. Some believe in some type of incarnation, while others believe in an indwelling. Some actually believe that Christ entered Jesus at His baptism, and left Him on the cross. I've seen so many different ONeness views in these forum to last me a life time.

I put up the first section of the Articles of Faith on CARM for discussion on the OP board to see what Trinitarians would say about the definitions of God, Word, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit used by WPA.

It's interesting what "Believer" wrote, don't you think?

[Timmy]

Pants, for example, scripturally and historically are equivalent to “girding up the loins like a man” (Job 38:3), something women did not do (Deuteronomy 22:5).
Are they serious? Deut 22:5 doesn't mention loins girding. But Prov 31:17 does. And it's talking very specifically about a woman! Sigh.

[TRFrance]

Seems like a huge waste of time to form another org just over whether a Church can advertise on TV. I notice they cannot help but promote the same old "immortal soul" error that is so entrenched in the post Apostolic times.


Maybe I'm missing something here.
Do you not believe the soul is immortal? How do you define this "immortal soul" doctrine?

[Michael The Disciple]

Maybe I'm missing something here.
Do you not believe the soul is immortal? How do you define this "immortal soul" doctrine?

If our soul can die it is not immortal.

28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28


20: Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:20

According to the scriptures our soul can die.

[Walkbyfaith7]

Thank God for this organization that was made out of great men of God willing to stand in front of the face of holiness and say, we will not compromise!

We will not be like Benny Hinn and Paul Crouch. We can win the world without the TV!

[stmatthew]

Thank God for this organization that was made out of great men of God willing to stand in front of the face of holiness and say, we will not compromise!

We will not be like Benny Hinn and Paul Crouch. We can win the world without the TV!

all the while looking at porn on their computers, right?

[stmatthew]

Actually, if memory serves me correctly, you where the one that called others liars.



Friends, I have followed this from a little distance since GC. The word given at the beginning was that this was going to be a loose fellowship. This is the reason why many faught the proclamations that it would be an ORG. I have watched as informationally it evolved into what it now is.

WAS IT IN THE MINDS OF THE FOUNDERS TO MAKE IT AN ORG AT THE START?? I do not know, and none of you know for sure either. But the information out there at the start was that it would be a loose fellowship. IF it was in the minds of the organizers, they did not share it to quite a lot of conservative men that have plans on being a part of the Org.

Well, I am now having to correct myself.

The latest word is that the Tulsa Group WILL NOT be giving licenses. They are giving certificates of membership. The local church will be where any licenses are issued.

So while the WPF is an Org of sorts, it is not a licensing Org.

[Sandra]

all the while looking at porn on their computers, right?

Go MATT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ouch:ouch:ouch

[KarenJo]

I feel sad for the saints in the local church. I hope that the Pastors that leave keep their members in mind. I have heard too many stories where members of a church were not in favor of the direction of the church but because of pressure, they either had to get in line with the Pastor or leave. I am not talking about rebellion but the control that some ministers have over their saints. If you leave, you are made to feel that you are not right with God. I pray that there is a lot of discussion between the pulpit and the pew in regards to the direction of the church. It's funny I hear preachers say, my church, my ministry, my sheep, didn’t Jesus tell Peter to feed HIS Sheep! Just my opinion...

[Harmony]

Well, I am now having to correct myself.

The latest word is that the Tulsa Group WILL NOT be giving licenses. They are giving certificates of membership. The local church will be where any licenses are issued.

So while the WPF is an Org of sorts, it is not a licensing Org.

Should it be: the Tulsa Group WILL NOT be giving licenses YET? Are they possibly just waiting to see how the membership developes?

[Batman]

I will further refrain from engaging in any other such unacceptable programs or materials via radio, internet or any other present or future technology.
They're saying that on the internet.

[Batman]

Originally Posted by ChicagoPastor
What do you call people that say one thing and then do another?

A preacher.

[RockNaHardpl]

I'm going to try and pull my thoughts together into something coherent, so bear with me. I'm not sure how it will be received, but I would like to touch on several previous comments and some made by those high in the organization.

First, we understand and accept that the salvation plan of the New Testament is pretty much summed up by Peter's statements in Acts 2:38, declaring that repentance, baptism in Jesus name and receiving the Holy Ghost is pretty much followed throughout the new testament. That is what links us to apostolic doctrine that was later corrupted by elements that moved into the body after the death of the apostles.

Second, not every form of division and debate is of the devil. Simply put, if you will move past Acts 2, you will see that the early church had its share of debate. For those who know me, you know I've continued in apostolic tradition throughout my life.

In Acts 3 after the initial out-pouring of the Holy Ghost, the church was attacked and called into question by the then-standing, ruling religious power in Jerusalem, brought before the Annas, the high priest and Caiaphas, John, Alexander and the families related to the high priest. Understand this is the bunch who stood before Pilate and demanded Christ's death just over a month before. The outward debate did not stop the church from growing. Peter preached to them on the day of Pentecost, calling them murderers. Note, he's still talking to the high priest, for all you cats that don't believe you can biblically withstand someone who is in FALSE DOCTRINE, HERESY or SIN, because of their age or position. There is a vast gulf between rebuke and railing or reviling someone. Don't think you won't be put out of an assembly or an organizations if you stand for God's word...even in Pentecost.

Third, confusion and sin inside the body will be dealt with by God. Annanias and Sapphira conspired to lie to Peter about the land they sold and the amount. God dealt with it and great fear fell on the church and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles, because the respect and fear of God was again dominant in the church. We worry so much about people leaving and going. For those of you who remember GC in the 90's, we lost a lot of men and women who walked up and laid their licenses on the altar and walked out.

Fourth, in Acts 10-11 the Gentiles received the Holy Ghost in the house of Cornelius the Jews at first rejoiced that the Gentiles had also received the Holy Ghost, but by Acts 15, certain converted Pharisees tried to subvert the Gentiles by telling them they had to keep the law of Moses and be circumcised to be save. This sparked a major debate in the church and ended up with Peter confronting them and settling the debate before the church elders in Acts 15:14-29. I mention this, because I have recently had this same debate in a church. The apostles settled this fight a long time ago. No need to rehash it with the HRM crowd. We see at the end of the chapter that Paul and Barnabas had such a contention among them over John Mark going with them that they parted company. That wasn't over a doctrine, just a man! It was all in God's will though as we see Paul chose Silas as a companion and continued on his journey. Not all contention is bad.

Fifth and finally, in Galatians 2, the Paul withstood Peter to his face BEFORE ALL because he was to be blamed. Even though Paul and Peter were by that time established apostles, one to the Gentiles and one to the Jews, Paul was still wise enough to know Peter was the spokesperson for the church as a whole, selected by Christ himself. If you read the entire chapter, it gives a lot of insite as to respect of persons and people seeming to be in high positions. Do a study on verse 5. They did not give the men place for even an hour...why? Because of the gospel. Paul even documented that Barnabas was carried away by their dissimulation.

Debate is in the blood of the apostolic church, whether we want to accept it or not. Jesus braided a whip and laid into the money changers in the temple, but we 3rd and 4th generation apostolics seem to think that anything verbalized beyond a whisper is of the devil. Our views on leadership and what is leadership are so skewed that we have no concept of apostolic order. Paul's version of "Let all things be done decently and in order," had NOTHING to do with PARLIAMENTARY PROCEDURE and definitely didn't have a flip to do with a social program created by men.

These men were the head honchos of the early Apostolic church of the first age. Yet we want to critique good men of God in our generation for leaving an organization or taking a stand? How apostolic we are.... Debate is debate. Opinion is opinion. The last thing we need is to strike out verbally against God's anointed and slander them as renegades, rebels and rogues, as some in leadership roles of the UPCI have done with those who left them. The entire early church was marked with those titles. I've even debated on the UPCI site about this very subject.

Jesus said in the sermon on the mount that we were blessed when men withdrew from us, or cast out our name as evil, or drove us from the synagogues. He stated he would send us prophets, wise men and scribes and some they would persecute, kill and cast out of the synagogues. Maybe I'm just an ignorant hick, but I don't think he meant the city hall when he said synagogues. I think the hint was they would kick some of us out of the church. And that would imply that someone in "authority" did the kicking!

And don't think I'm being hateful about any of this. I'm not. I was rebuked on another site a year ago by a UPCI evangelist who told me that I was wrong and no one would leave the UPC. Amazing what God will confirm in a year. And don't bother asking if I'm for or against television. I'm simply for Jesus. He is where my allegiance lies.

We need to rethink where the spiritual authority of our ministries lies and that will destroy much of the reason for debate. Misguided thinking even among leaders has always been the cause of strife in organizations. Jesus in Matt. 20:25-28, told his disciples that the ministry will not bear rule over the church like the leaders in the gentile nations. I think we missed it in many aspects when we started putting words to paper in a manual that revises every few years, and start labeling men as sinners who are taking stands for their convictions even in the face of leaders they love who they feel are in error. I've been put in that place many times. God has always called the shots and dealt with it. I think he will in this situation too.

May God bless the ministers of the UPC and the WPF and bring them to unity as brethren, despite their minor philosophical differences. If they don't, this is only going to be the first of many splits and fractures. God is going to make us learn the lesson of unity in the body.

[JustSmilin]

Not to dredge up an old post, but the WPF forming is something that I learned of recently.

That being said, I don't know the in's and out's of everything, but one thing has stood out to me. I have a few friends on Facebook that are WPF. If I understand correctly, they aren't supposed to watch or record videos or anything. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) However, I see some of them posting videos all the time. I don't know if they're recorded on a cell phone or a camcorder or what, but they're still videos. I remember when I was a teenager, anything like that was strictly forbidden. So to see someone that is either WPF or UPC posting videos, listing favorite tv shows and listing their favorite music and a lot of it is secular....it's a bit confusing to me.

[Maximilian]

Not to dredge up an old post, but the WPF forming is something that I learned of recently.

That being said, I don't know the in's and out's of everything, but one thing has stood out to me. I have a few friends on Facebook that are WPF. If I understand correctly, they aren't supposed to watch or record videos or anything. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) However, I see some of them posting videos all the time. I don't know if they're recorded on a cell phone or a camcorder or what, but they're still videos. I remember when I was a teenager, anything like that was strictly forbidden. So to see someone that is either WPF or UPC posting videos, listing favorite tv shows and listing their favorite music and a lot of it is secular....it's a bit confusing to me.

The evening speaker tonight actually preached about facebook.

[Sam]

The evening speaker tonight actually preached about facebook.

was he fur it or agin it?

[Sam]

The evening speaker tonight actually preached about facebook.

I personally think facebook can be a good witnessing tool.

[JustSmilin]

It can be a good witnessing tool as well. It's another outlet. I'm just confused by what I've seen. That's all.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Not to dredge up an old post, but the WPF forming is something that I learned of recently.

That being said, I don't know the in's and out's of everything, but one thing has stood out to me. I have a few friends on Facebook that are WPF. If I understand correctly, they aren't supposed to watch or record videos or anything. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) However, I see some of them posting videos all the time. I don't know if they're recorded on a cell phone or a camcorder or what, but they're still videos. I remember when I was a teenager, anything like that was strictly forbidden. So to see someone that is either WPF or UPC posting videos, listing favorite tv shows and listing their favorite music and a lot of it is secular....it's a bit confusing to me.
I don't think recording something with a camcorder was ever forbidden. Most of them watch YouTube clips all the time, too.

It's just full-length movies or tv shows that are usually forbidden.

[JustSmilin]

I don't think recording something with a camcorder was ever forbidden. Most of them watch YouTube clips all the time, too.

It's just full-length movies or tv shows that are usually forbidden.

When I went to a UPC church, camcorders were never allowed. People who didn't go to our church couldn't bring their camcorders to any school functions. (I went to the school at the church.) Cell phones with camcorders weren't around then, so that never came into play.

[canam]

The evening speaker tonight actually preached about facebook.

Yeah, but did he mention twittter ? Not likely,the ones that are against fb are tweeters.

[Sister Alvear]

for my two cents worth I would like to say when we learn to really be a christian our downfall will not be facebook or youtube...It is impossible and not biblical to control people however it is biblical to lead in love...
I personally am on facebook and it has not been a hinderence to my spiritual walk with my lovely Lord. I have been able to share with others what God is doing.

I have tried to help our people be christians...and have a real walk with God for themselves...holding to my apron strings will not save them. We must help others to be solid christians because at some point each one will be tested for themselves and many times alone...
We really are what we are when we are alone....

[Sister Alvear]

If we as leaders are not careful we will teach our people we have so much more than the church across town...and in time that will produce sick people....we must teach but not for our personal gain...We must point souls to Jesus. There are other oneness groups in Brazil and many of them are just as saved as I am...I refuse to tell my people a lie and talk bad against the churches across town or even up the street....

[*AQuietPlace*]

When I went to a UPC church, camcorders were never allowed. People who didn't go to our church couldn't bring their camcorders to any school functions. (I went to the school at the church.) Cell phones with camcorders weren't around then, so that never came into play.
There are a few churches like that, but most are not.

[Mr. Will]

Are dentures considered an attempt to "artificially induce beauty?"....Just wondering..

[Sam]

Are dentures considered an attempt to "artificially induce beauty?"....Just wondering..

some churches preach against having dental work done

[JustSmilin]

some churches preach against having dental work done
Wow. Just...wow. I think that some of the things like that are ridiculous. I mean no disrespect toward anyone, but do they really think that dental work is a sin or will lead you to hell? People need to have a freedom to be who they are and follow their own convictions. By that I mean I don't need to be told whether or not dental work, wearing a certain color, having the right stockings, being told whether or not I can watch tv or wear a wedding ring, etc... I need to ask God myself whether or not it's okay. I remember being told that our slits were to be only 2" or 3" long and having to ask permission whether or not it was okay to have a party and ask if it was okay to invite people. Am I alone in thinking that's crossing a boundary?

[Sam]

Wow. Just...wow. I think that some of the things like that are ridiculous. I mean no disrespect toward anyone, but do they really think that dental work is a sin or will lead you to hell? People need to have a freedom to be who they are and follow their own convictions. By that I mean I don't need to be told whether or not dental work, wearing a certain color, having the right stockings, being told whether or not I can watch tv or wear a wedding ring, etc... I need to ask God myself whether or not it's okay. I remember being told that our slits were to be only 2" or 3" long and having to ask permission whether or not it was okay to have a party and ask if it was okay to invite people. Am I alone in thinking that's crossing a boundary?

To some people you would be considered rebellious to even ask questions like that or to try to think for yourself. For centuries the "established" Church (Roman Catholic) held people in bondage through ignorance and superstition. The Church controlled their eternal destiny and was the only way for them to get to Heaven. They had to be baptized in the church to be saved, they had to be married in the church to be married in God's sight, they had to confess their sins to a representative of the church to obtain forgiveness, they had to follow the church's rules and observe the church's rituals and sacraments to "keep" their salvation, and they needed the official last rites of the church to have any hope of getting to Heaven. The Pope was considered the Vicar of Christ and any of his pronouncements from the throne were considered infallible and directly from God. To leave the church was considered leaving God. We can see this same type of bondage through ignorance and superstition in some churches today which are not Roman Catholic but may be Pentecostal or Apostolic or UPC or Holiness.

[JustSmilin]

I'm sure to a lot of people I'm considered rebellious for thinking or asking those questions. I'm okay with that, though. I'd rather think for myself than be told what to do and have no opinions or convictions of my own. :) That's not to say I don't believe we should listen to our pastor, but I believe that some things you just don't need to be told.

[Sam]

I'm sure to a lot of people I'm considered rebellious for thinking or asking those questions. I'm okay with that, though. I'd rather think for myself than be told what to do and have no opinions or convictions of my own. :) That's not to say I don't believe we should listen to our pastor, but I believe that some things you just don't need to be told.

I believe we should follow our pastor as he or she follows Christ. When a pastor starts preaching opinions and personal convictions or likes and dislikes as the Word we are under no obligation to listen to that stuff.

[Mr. Will]

Sam I think you are totally right. But here is my quandry. I was raised in and have been in ultra-conservative UPC as an adult.Now I wonder about what is opinion (and I do realize much of what I've been taught is opinion) and what does God really want and expect of me. But when one questions things in my church you get the guilt trip of being rebellious laid on you, and the old "because you love not the truth, God will send strong delusions that you'll believe a lie and be damned" talk. I don't see it that dressing to someone else's expectations and preferences is "loving the truth", but I do believe the Acts 2:38 messages is the truth. Is there a peaceful way out? I have found myself wondering about folks who have "gone Charasmatic, but now realize my doubting of these people could very well have been more a product of years of conditioning, more than the "leading of the Spirit". Am I on a journey that is just going to be difficult, or is there a peaceful way to work this out. I have been wrestling this for a couple of years.

[Sam]

Sam I think you are totally right. But here is my quandry. I was raised in and have been in ultra-conservative UPC as an adult.Now I wonder about what is opinion (and I do realize much of what I've been taught is opinion) and what does God really want and expect of me. But when one questions things in my church you get the guilt trip of being rebellious laid on you, and the old "because you love not the truth, God will send strong delusions that you'll believe a lie and be damned" talk. I don't see it that dressing to someone else's expectations and preferences is "loving the truth", but I do believe the Acts 2:38 messages is the truth. Is there a peaceful way out? I have found myself wondering about folks who have "gone Charasmatic, but now realize my doubting of these people could very well have been more a product of years of conditioning, more than the "leading of the Spirit". Am I on a journey that is just going to be difficult, or is there a peaceful way to work this out. I have been wrestling this for a couple of years.

You will have to read the Word and come to your own conclusions on stuff like this.

[JustSmilin]

Sam I think you are totally right. But here is my quandry. I was raised in and have been in ultra-conservative UPC as an adult.Now I wonder about what is opinion (and I do realize much of what I've been taught is opinion) and what does God really want and expect of me. But when one questions things in my church you get the guilt trip of being rebellious laid on you, and the old "because you love not the truth, God will send strong delusions that you'll believe a lie and be damned" talk. I don't see it that dressing to someone else's expectations and preferences is "loving the truth", but I do believe the Acts 2:38 messages is the truth. Is there a peaceful way out? I have found myself wondering about folks who have "gone Charasmatic, but now realize my doubting of these people could very well have been more a product of years of conditioning, more than the "leading of the Spirit". Am I on a journey that is just going to be difficult, or is there a peaceful way to work this out. I have been wrestling this for a couple of years.

I agree with Sam in that you need to study and decide for yourself what it is that YOU believe. Maybe ask yourself if some of the things you do is because it's what you believe or if it's just because you're told it's right. Is it a "Heaven or hell" issue? (Meaning, wearing a short-sleeved shirt vs. a shirt that goes to your wrist in my opinion, isn't a "Heaven or hell" issue.) Only you can decide whether or not it's something that you can work through with staying there or leaving. Personally, I don't think making sure you're doing what you do is Biblically sound is rebellious. I think it's wise.