WPF - Answers their critics

[pentecostisalive]

http://www.worldwidepf.com/page.php?ID=24

I must say, that all communication from the WPF leadership has displayed a good attitude and spirit.

[AmazingGrace]

http://www.worldwidepf.com/page.php?ID=24

I must say, that all communication from the WPF leadership has displayed a good attitude and spirit.

Really now? Lying is a good spirit??? Not in the circles I run in but ok!

[pentecostisalive]

Really now? Lying is a good spirit??? Not in the circles I run in but ok!

You have absolutely no proof that they are lying. Basing your understanding on hearsay is faulty at best. It could be possible that you have accepted and believed lies or at least misrepresentations in your knowledge of their efforts.

[AmazingGrace]

You have absolutely no proof that they are lying. Basing your understanding on hearsay is faulty at best. It could be possible that you have accepted and believed lies or at least misrepresentations in your knowledge of their efforts.

Could it be possible that I have proof? Could it be possible that I have actually spoken to some whos names were wrongly put on this list?? I dont have to air everyones dirty laundry but I do know there have been a lot of things done wrong and it is indeed fact. I have already stated previously and care not to rehash this thank you.

[AmazingGrace]

I really do wish everyone the best, but when will they ever learn to write their thoughts out in the form of a sentence?

" 7. QUESTION: Why in the world are you guys starting WPF?

:toofunny:toofunny:blah:blah

[pelathais]

:toofunny:toofunny:blah:blah
What's happening? Half my post keeps getting chopped off.

[mizpeh]

I really do wish everyone the best, but when will they ever learn to write their thoughts out in the form of a sentence?

7. QUESTION: Why in the world are you guys starting WPF?

http://www.worldwidepf.com/page.php?ID=21

[pelathais]

What's happening? Half my post keeps getting chopped off.


Nunc pulvinar dolor id dolor tincidunt eleifend.
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[AmazingGrace]

What's happening? Half my post keeps getting chopped off.

Not sure???

[pelathais]

Mapping directions for a preffered apostolic future.
A map for a preferred apostolic future.
Charting a course for a preferred apostolic future.
A map for a preferred apostolic future.

I just was hoping that we didn't all have to be "Oneless" any more. For some reason that last post box would't let me post a whole message. Somebody had better kick BOOMM outta bed!

[Cindy]

Nunc pulvinar dolor id dolor tincidunt eleifend.
Quisque egestas laoreet tortor.
Vivamus auctor mauris at lorem.
Etiam posuere semper libero.
Proin at augue eu nibh porttitor condimentum.


Nunc pretium malesuada neque.
Integer ullamcorper dolor vitae nunc.
Nulla lobortis tincidunt justo.
Etiam in mi et tortor tempus vehicula.
Morbi ultricies enim rhoncus nisl.


Duis malesuada velit id nulla.
Suspendisse tristique nunc ut orci.
Mauris consequat quam sit amet lorem.
Curabitur iaculis tortor sit amet purus.
Nam eget eros a pede sagittis hendrerit.
Etiam aliquam mi quis tortor.


:scoregood

[jrLA]

The word 'poppycock' comes to mind!

[Timmy]

"ANSWER: Plans are to intrude at Tulsa ..." :toofunny

(From "Education/Training FAQs" (http://www.worldwidepf.com/page.php?ID=28))

[Sister Alvear]

I have always wondered why men get out of one group and form another group? Guess being a woman that must be a man thing...

[Stephanas]

If the letter writing district and general officials had done their duty and enforced the ministerial requirements spelled out in the UPCI manual, would there even be a Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship?

If the UPCI ministers who have chosen to have television in their homes had turned in their credentials instead of going to Tampa and overthrowing the restriction on television advertising, would there be a need for the Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship?

If a pastor wanted to have a youth group that conformed to the standards spelled out in the UPCI manual, would he want to send them to UPC events to play "Amazing Race" and celebrate Dora the Explorer, or would he send them to Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship events?

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

I think many might answer, NO, NO, and WPF.

I'm just glad I'm not on either side of the fence on this.

I'm just speculating. Glad I'm a spectator.

[Stephanas]

"No minister having a television in his or her home shall be permitted to hold license or credentials with the United Pentecostal Church International."

[Dora]

Ok. Somebody's fibbing just a teeny tad. Wonder who...

Things that make ya go hmmmmmmmmmm. The question answer thing was NOT very informative. I don't think the UPCI allows holding license with two different orgs. I guess they have other orgs in mind.

So no "aggressive" recruiting efforts were used...no names were listed without permission???

HMMMMMmmmmmMMMmmmmMMMMmmMMMmmmmm

[Stephanas]

Another Question:

If the leadership of the UPC had spent the last two decades upholding the manual rather than chasing the myth of "fastest growing," would there be a Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship today?

[Neck]

http://www.worldwidepf.com/page.php?ID=24

I must say, that all communication from the WPF leadership has displayed a good attitude and spirit.

I think they are respoding like a political campaign. I am sure the WPF did not directly offer the $21,000 pay off of the church mortgage. However it could be some of the affiliated ministers are trying to lure men to the WPF.

That is where the offer most likely came from.....

[Steadfast]

If the letter writing district and general officials had done their duty and enforced the ministerial requirements spelled out in the UPCI manual, would there even be a Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship?

If the UPCI ministers who have chosen to have television in their homes had turned in their credentials instead of going to Tampa and overthrowing the restriction on television advertising, would there be a need for the Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship?

If a pastor wanted to have a youth group that conformed to the standards spelled out in the UPCI manual, would he want to send them to UPC events to play "Amazing Race" and celebrate Dora the Explorer, or would he send them to Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship events?

An interesting post with some valid arguments.

For the record, I'm friends with about 80% of the Tulsa group and preach for them on a regular basis. Additionally, I'm UPC and have been for over 25 years and, again, preach a lot of meetings on most every level of the organization.

That being said, I can tell you that...

(a) I don't know of any 'lies' being told by the key men though there was a lot of confusion pertaining to the 'names' on the 'list' found on their website. From what I have ascertained that was the result of those creating a website who randomly put some names on the 'list' and then gave out the website address for a few other's to see what they were trying to design... NOT a proclaimation that all these men were actually going to be in those positions.

However, as we all know, Pentecost has no problem with 'passing information' along with the gradual changing of stories from person to person on a familiar manner...
"Hey, look at this website design and tell me what you think."
"Hey, look at the website they are putting up."
"Hey, look at the names on this list and tell me what you think."
"Hey, look at this website, did you know Bro. """ is leaving the UPC!"
"Hey, look at Bro. """'s name on this website! Can you believe it! Wait till the 'boys' hear about this!"

We've all seen it before and will see it again. Not so much a 'lie' as a random picking of some names from various areas to fill in the 'details' that were going to be fine tuned later. At least that's what I was told by those who are involved.

(b) I love the UPC and appreciate all its efforts. I do think some cardinal things were 'overlooked' that, had they been taken care of, would have eliminated the need for this present situation.

The United Pentecostal Church has been good to me and I've poured my life into ministry and much of that into the UPC. Even so, I can identify with the concern of the group supposedly 'leaving'. While I think their departure may be a little premature I do respect the impeccible reputations of most of those organizing this.


I think it's sad.

I think it was unnecessary.

I think those who flippantly say 'good riddance' have no clue how God perceives His Kingdom.

I think the caliber of men we are losing (in most cases) is something that should concern the entire fellowship in a serious way.


NOTE: The two most dangerous things that can happen right now in this whole mix is...
1. The UPC to start trying to discredit these men or make light of the fact they are leaving. If this happens Tulsa will grow by 300% by their next meeting. The men involved are great men who are loved and respected by most everyone and, while some don't see a need to bail out of the UPC right now, they also see NO need in putting these men 'out of fellowship'. What an incredible mistake! THAT, in my opinion, would have a MUCH greater effect than just passing Resolution 4.

2. Those starting this new fellowship will make a desperately critical mistake if they allow their newfound fellowship to give platforms to some who have been viciously anti-UPC. Doing so will absolutely undermine the entire premise upon which their fellowship is supposedly built on. How futile would it be to build a fellowship on wanting to be surrounded with visible holiness and then invite in invisible unholiness? Giving a voice to some with the old 'The devil is my enemy and the UPC is his mother in law' spirits that are 'out there' would discredit everything they say they want to build.

I find it a shame that we would even be in this position as the Apostolic movement. What would be a greater shame is for both factions to lose credibility in the midst of it all by having a wrong spirit towards their brethren.

[Whole Hearted]

If the letter writing district and general officials had done their duty and enforced the ministerial requirements spelled out in the UPCI manual, would there even be a Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship?

If the UPCI ministers who have chosen to have television in their homes had turned in their credentials instead of going to Tampa and overthrowing the restriction on television advertising, would there be a need for the Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship?

If a pastor wanted to have a youth group that conformed to the standards spelled out in the UPCI manual, would he want to send them to UPC events to play "Amazing Race" and celebrate Dora the Explorer, or would he send them to Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship events?

:scoregood

[AmazingGrace]

Ok Bro Steadfast... Question for you...

If number 1 does not happen... and number 2 does happen then what would be the scenario? Do you feel that disfellowshipping is then constituted? Or should they just have continued free reign? Just asking a serious question. This is all I want to know... I am no longer going to post on these threads considering I have some very close to me on both sides of the fence here and I dont want to say anything stupid that would hurt either... but I have been wanting to ask this for a long time.

[Steadfast]

Ok. Somebody's fibbing just a teeny tad. Wonder who...

Things that make ya go hmmmmmmmmmm. The question answer thing was NOT very informative. I don't think the UPCI allows holding license with two different orgs. I guess they have other orgs in mind.

So no "aggressive" recruiting efforts were used...no names were listed without permission???

HMMMMMmmmmmMMMmmmmMMMMmmMMMmmmmm

Dora,

I don't think that there is actually a 'rule' that says you can't belong to any other fellowships, etc., in the manual. I think this common perception is from the question on every local UPC application that says something to the effect, "Are you willing to drop affiliation with other organizations to attain a license with the UPC".

That has to be on their because of such things as freemasonry and a score of half truth 'semi-costal' organizations. There are MANY - even among national officials - that belong to other organizations of various types.

[Barb]

Good word, Steadie...

[TrmptPraise]

Yes, Sted! Great post!

Thank your for your insight and (IMO) wisdom conveyed.

[Threads]

"No minister having a television in his or her home shall be permitted to hold license or credentials with the United Pentecostal Church International."


Hmmmm. I know of one in California that has them in every room of his house and still preaches in the WD.:tantrum

[Steadfast]

Ok Bro Steadfast... Question for you...

If number 1 does not happen... and number 2 does happen then what would be the scenario? Do you feel that disfellowshipping is then constituted? Or should they just have continued free reign? Just asking a serious question. This is all I want to know... I am no longer going to post on these threads considering I have some very close to me on both sides of the fence here and I dont want to say anything stupid that would hurt either... but I have been wanting to ask this for a long time.

If I understand the question right you're saying, "What if the UPC keeps a right spirit and the break away group starts becoming a UPC bashing session... should they disfellowship them?"

If, and again I say IF, that happens I don't think the UPC will have much choice but to try to protect their interests somehow. I just know that if the UPC jumps prematurely and starts trying to discredit men who have been loved and honored among us it's going to create chaos.

The ONLY way to get around that is to give this whole thing time and IF the break away group becomes vicious it will speak volumes to those who sympathize with their situation. On the other hand, IF the UPC is perceived to be attacking them without cause (let's face it, these leaders have had a good spirit up to this point) it will bring sympathizers out of the woodwork and slingshot them right into the Tulsa group.

I have to be honest here: The VAST, VAST, VAST majority of the preachers that I talk to believe that the Tulsa group has a right to do what they are doing. Most just think it's a little premature because, technically, they haven't changed the rules on owning a television but simply said you can advertise on it.

To try, at least now, to take a stand against it would be the equivelent to that 'vast majority' of preachers as saying, "We made it uncomfortable for you in our organization but now we're going to persecute you for the convictions you want to hold on to."

Discomfort people can sometimes abide by.
Perceived persecution is seen in a whole dangerously different way.

[AmazingGrace]

If I understand the question right you're saying, "What if the UPC keeps a right spirit and the break away group starts becoming a UPC bashing session... should they disfellowship them?"

If, and again I say IF, that happens I don't think the UPC will have much choice but to try to protect their interests somehow. I just know that if the UPC jumps prematurely and starts trying to discredit men who have been loved and honored among us it's going to create chaos.

The ONLY way to get around that is to give this whole thing time and IF the break away group becomes vicious it will speak volumes to those who sympathize with their situation. On the other hand, IF the UPC is perceived to be attacking them without cause (let's face it, these leaders have had a good spirit up to this point) it will bring sympathizers out of the woodwork and slingshot them right into the Tulsa group.

I have to be honest here: The VAST, VAST, VAST majority of the preachers that I talk to believe that the Tulsa group has a right to do what they are doing. Most just think it's a little premature because, technically, they haven't changed the rules on owning a television but simply said you can advertise on it.

To try, at least now, to take a stand against it would be the equivelent to that 'vast majority' of preachers as saying, "We made it uncomfortable for you in our organization but now we're going to persecute you for the convictions you want to hold on to."

Discomfort people can sometimes abide by.
Perceived persecution is seen in a whole dangerously different way.

Thank you and yes you did answer my question. I pray neither be the case but Thanks! I now bow out and just sitnwatch... Its soon and I pray it doesnt get nasty the closer it becomes. They have had a pretty good spirit so far and all we can do is pray it stays that way.... There are some things I do totally disagree with but then hey.. neither are we perfect.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Hmmmm. I know of one in California that has them in every room of his house and still preaches in the WD.:tantrum

I know some who don't- point?

[Steadfast]

Thank you and yes you did answer my question. I pray neither be the case but Thanks! I now bow out and just sitnwatch... Its soon and I pray it doesnt get nasty the closer it becomes. They have had a pretty good spirit so far and all we can do is pray it stays that way.... There are some things I do totally disagree with but then hey.. neither are we perfect.

Dear Lady,

Most all the smart ones are approaching this whole thing with a 'wait and see' attitude before coming to any rash conclusions. That, too, is the absolute mindset of most of the brethren I know.

I find myself somewhere between frustrated and tickled when I see some of the folks wading in to assault or applaud the whole ordeal right now... especially those who have nothing to gain or lose either way! Their boistrous proclaimations remind me of someone who has never had a child ranting and railing like an expert trying to tell others how to raise one!

For most of us it's a 'learn as you go' process and, frankly, with a situation like this we're ALL going to 'learn' as we 'go'.

[StillStanding]

If I understand the question right you're saying, "What if the UPC keeps a right spirit and the break away group starts becoming a UPC bashing session... should they disfellowship them?"

If, and again I say IF, that happens I don't think the UPC will have much choice but to try to protect their interests somehow. I just know that if the UPC jumps prematurely and starts trying to discredit men who have been loved and honored among us it's going to create chaos.

The ONLY way to get around that is to give this whole thing time and IF the break away group becomes vicious it will speak volumes to those who sympathize with their situation. On the other hand, IF the UPC is perceived to be attacking them without cause (let's face it, these leaders have had a good spirit up to this point) it will bring sympathizers out of the woodwork and slingshot them right into the Tulsa group.

I have to be honest here: The VAST, VAST, VAST majority of the preachers that I talk to believe that the Tulsa group has a right to do what they are doing. Most just think it's a little premature because, technically, they haven't changed the rules on owning a television but simply said you can advertise on it.

To try, at least now, to take a stand against it would be the equivelent to that 'vast majority' of preachers as saying, "We made it uncomfortable for you in our organization but now we're going to persecute you for the convictions you want to hold on to."

Discomfort people can sometimes abide by.
Perceived persecution is seen in a whole dangerously different way.

I am emotionally biased toward the UPC, being that I spent so many years there. The break-away group could be Catholic as far as I'm concerned because I personally don't know any of the leaders!

When one has close friends on both sides, they tend to be more balanced in their opinions.

I agree that the worse thing the UPCI could do after the Tulsa meeting is force preachers to pick sides. There should be a "grace" period while preachers sort everything out.

After a period of time, it may become neccessary to force a decision if trouble brews.

With time, they will become two seperate Oneness organizations with relations comparable to the ALJC and UPCI.

[Steadfast]

I know some who don't- point?

BOOM, you know the answer to that as well as I do. It's the common way to try to discredit the process; if someone is breaking the rules then the rules probably have no merit anyway.

I preached in 20 states and 4 foreign countries last year and, let me see... how many Pastors had television in their homes? How many told me that they have television?

Oh yes... NONE! For all these people who say 'Every Pastor does it' all I can say, as one who preached in over 40 places last year, is that you appear to be dead wrong.

[Joseph Miller]

If the letter writing district and general officials had done their duty and enforced the ministerial requirements spelled out in the UPCI manual, would there even be a Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship?

What did they not enforce?

If the UPCI ministers who have chosen to have television in their homes had turned in their credentials instead of going to Tampa and overthrowing the restriction on television advertising, would there be a need for the Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship?

Are you sure that everyone who voted for res4 wants or has a TV in their home? I know that all the voted for it don't have TV or want one.

If a pastor wanted to have a youth group that conformed to the standards spelled out in the UPCI manual, would he want to send them to UPC events to play "Amazing Race" and celebrate Dora the Explorer, or would he send them to Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship events?

You can only change something from the inside out so stay and try to bring change, don't jump ship.


That is just simply MHO

[Joseph Miller]

"No minister having a television in his or her home shall be permitted to hold license or credentials with the United Pentecostal Church International."

That has not changed. I know of pastors with TV in their home. I have some close friends with them. I have asked them how they can sign the AS. I couldn't do it, but that is between them and God. I also won't tell who they are or where they are from either.

[Whole Hearted]

Thanks for the link. It was very informative.

[Neck]

That has not changed. I know of pastors with TV in their home. I have some close friends with them. I have asked them how they can sign the AS. I couldn't do it, but that is between them and God. I also won't tell who they are or where they are from either.


That is simple. Put the TV in the backyard on the day you sign and mail the AS card back.

Then get weak and fall back to the backyard and bring it back in for another year....

[Stephanas]

If the letter writing district and general officials had done their duty and enforced the ministerial requirements spelled out in the UPCI manual, would there even be a Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship?

What did they not enforce?

That has not changed. I know of pastors with TV in their home. I have some close friends with them. I have asked them how they can sign the AS. I couldn't do it, but that is between them and God. I also won't tell who they are or where they are from either.

Brother Miller

You answered your own question.

If district officials had enforced the ministerial requirement that UPCI ministers not have a television in their homes, Resolution #4 would have withered on the vine.

[Praxeas]

Mapping directions for a preffered apostolic future.
A map for a preferred apostolic future.
Charting a course for a preferred apostolic future.
A map for a preferred apostolic future.

I just was hoping that we didn't all have to be "Oneless" any more. For some reason that last post box would't let me post a whole message. Somebody had better kick BOOMM outta bed!
Boom sleeps in a bed?

[Praxeas]

Another Question:

If the leadership of the UPC had spent the last two decades upholding the manual rather than chasing the myth of "fastest growing," would there be a Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship today?
Voting changes to the manual is not the same as not upholding the manual.

[Praxeas]

If the UPCI ministers who have chosen to have television in their homes had turned in their credentials instead of going to Tampa and overthrowing the restriction on television advertising, would there be a need for the Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship?

I wonder if this is the kind of dishonesty some are refering too.....you are assuming that those that voted for the ability to advertise on TV did so only because they already had TVs in their homes and that this would some how lead to it being ok....which is kinda rediculous if they were already having TVs in their homes and getting away with it.

Nor does that equate to a need for another organization since Res4 makes no restrictions or demands on those men.

What an absurd post

[Praxeas]

If a pastor wanted to have a youth group that conformed to the standards spelled out in the UPCI manual, would he want to send them to UPC events to play "Amazing Race" and celebrate Dora the Explorer, or would he send them to Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship events?
what does "Amazing Race" and highlighting an apostolic young lady that is the voice behind a cartoon character have to do with keep standards?

[Praxeas]

BTW why would having a TV inside your home make a difference if it's not even hooked up to receive signals?

[Stephanas]

I wonder if this is the kind of dishonesty some are refering too.....you are assuming that those that voted for the ability to advertise on TV did so only because they already had TVs in their homes and that this would some how lead to it being ok....which is kinda rediculous if they were already having TVs in their homes and getting away with it.

Nor does that equate to a need for another organization since Res4 makes no restrictions or demands on those men.

What an absurd post

The assumptions are your own, not mine.

We'll leave it to the readers to decide whose post is absurd.

[Praxeas]

The assumptions are your own, not mine.

We'll leave it to the readers to decide whose post is absurd.
No the assumption was yours... the post had YOUR nick not mine. YOU made the post that claims those pastors all had TV already....sheeeesh

[Praxeas]

If the UPCI ministers who have chosen to have television in their homes had turned in their credentials instead of going to Tampa and overthrowing the restriction on television advertising, would there be a need for the Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship?

ASSUMPTION

[Sister Alvear]

I hate to see brothers fight...I am sure both sides feels their ideas are noble...I have friends on both sides... While preachers may fuss and fight and most seem to go on sometimes their families grow bitter. Some families are caught in between...I feel for the children that will hear the older folks saying things...

[Monkeyman]

The assumptions are your own, not mine.

We'll leave it to the readers to decide whose post is absurd.Ok, I'll bite....ok, I've decided, yours is absurd.:ouch:stirpot LOL

[Stephanas]

No the assumption was yours... the post had YOUR nick not mine. YOU made the post that claims those pastors all had TV already....sheeeesh

It is difficult to have an adult conversation with someone who posts like an adolescent. Why don't you up the intellectual level of your posting a bit.

I did not post that all the pastors who voted for resolution #4 had televisions in their homes.

I posted, "If the UPCI ministers who have chosen to have television in their homes had turned in their credentials instead of going to Tampa and overthrowing the restriction on television advertising, would there be a need for the Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship?"

The logical interpretation is that, in my opinion, the number of pastors with televisions voting in favor of resolution #4 was enough to tip the balance in favor of its passage.

[Stephanas]

Ok, I'll bite....ok, I've decided, yours is absurd.:ouch:stirpot LOL

Let me guess:

Do you also believe that the UPCI's stand against having television in the home is absurd also?

Do you support Hollywood in the home?

[Stephanas]

what does "Amazing Race" and highlighting an apostolic young lady that is the voice behind a cartoon character have to do with keep standards?

"Furthermore, because of the display of all these evils on television, we disapprove of any of our people having television sets in their homes." (Articles of Faith UPCI)

[Joseph Miller]

Correct me if I am wrong, but ain't the UPCI a fellowship of ministers not churches? The manual applies to ministry only and there are somethings they recommend pastors ask of their people.

[Hoovie]

With time, they will become two seperate Oneness organizations with relations comparable to the ALJC and UPCI.


... or relations comparable to the AMF and Global...

[Scott Hutchinson]

I'm not UPCI but to me if a like minded group of men desire to form a ministerial association then they have that right.
If they don't like the direction the UPCI is headed then,then I applaud them for following their convictions.
If a group of more liberal minded men want to form a ministerial fellowship then they have that right also.
If I left one group to join or help to form another,I would leave on good terms, and in a correct spirit.
If a card is a man's message them he is missing point anyways.
Likeminded folks usually stick together.
I don't care for church politics myself,the cause of Christ and The Kingdom of Heaven are major concerns for me.

[Hoovie]

WPF says one can join up and remain a member of another fellowship or church organization.

And... while they will not licence, they will also provide assistance to pastors for licensing and ordaining in the local church.


So, just how logical is it for a minister to be ordained and licenced by multiple identities, and pay dues (that many have already stated are too high) to two of more identities???

[Joseph Miller]

WPF says one can join up and remain a member of another fellowship or church organization.

And... while they will not licence, they will also provide assistance to pastors for licensing and ordaining in the local church.


So, just how logical is it for a minister to be ordained and licenced by multiple identities, and pay dues (that many have already stated are too high) to two of more identities???


That is a very good question.

[tv1a]

I see we have another manual thumper on board. Welcome. If they followed Biblical principles the junk would not have been in the manual to begin with.

Another Question:

If the leadership of the UPC had spent the last two decades upholding the manual rather than chasing the myth of "fastest growing," would there be a Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship today?

[tv1a]

It would be nice for someone to post verbatim the tv ban resolution along side of the internet approval resolution. The resolutions are a few pages apart. A lot of the same language is in both resolutions.

"Furthermore, because of the display of all these evils on television, we disapprove of any of our people having television sets in their homes." (Articles of Faith UPCI)

[Stephanas]

I see we have another manual thumper on board. Welcome. If they followed Biblical principles the junk would not have been in the manual to begin with.

Manual thumper?

I hardly think so, but I do believe that if a person enters into a covenant with a fellowship, they should live by the terms of that covenant.

And, if a person accepts a leadership position in an organization, they have a fiduciary duty to uphold the principles of that organization until the regulations are changed.

[Joseph Miller]

Manual thumper?

I hardly think so, but I do believe that if a person enters into a covenant with a fellowship, they should live by the terms of that covenant.

And, if a person accepts a leadership position in an organization, they have a fiduciary duty to uphold the principles of that organization until the regulations are changed.


Brother you just condemned people for wanting to change the manuel a few post earlier.

[tv1a]

I have a feeling the public meeting in Tulsa will be mild to reel in some who are on the fence. The mud slinging and character assassinations will be done behind closed doors, out of public view.

If I understand the question right you're saying, "What if the UPC keeps a right spirit and the break away group starts becoming a UPC bashing session... should they disfellowship them?"

If, and again I say IF, that happens I don't think the UPC will have much choice but to try to protect their interests somehow. I just know that if the UPC jumps prematurely and starts trying to discredit men who have been loved and honored among us it's going to create chaos.

The ONLY way to get around that is to give this whole thing time and IF the break away group becomes vicious it will speak volumes to those who sympathize with their situation. On the other hand, IF the UPC is perceived to be attacking them without cause (let's face it, these leaders have had a good spirit up to this point) it will bring sympathizers out of the woodwork and slingshot them right into the Tulsa group.

I have to be honest here: The VAST, VAST, VAST majority of the preachers that I talk to believe that the Tulsa group has a right to do what they are doing. Most just think it's a little premature because, technically, they haven't changed the rules on owning a television but simply said you can advertise on it.

To try, at least now, to take a stand against it would be the equivelent to that 'vast majority' of preachers as saying, "We made it uncomfortable for you in our organization but now we're going to persecute you for the convictions you want to hold on to."

Discomfort people can sometimes abide by.

Perceived persecution is seen in a whole dangerously different way.

[Cindy]

It is difficult to have an adult conversation with someone who posts like an adolescent. Why don't you up the intellectual level of your posting a bit.

I did not post that all the pastors who voted for resolution #4 had televisions in their homes.

I posted, "If the UPCI ministers who have chosen to have television in their homes had turned in their credentials instead of going to Tampa and overthrowing the restriction on television advertising, would there be a need for the Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship?"

The logical interpretation is that, in my opinion, the number of pastors with televisions voting in favor of resolution #4 was enough to tip the balance in favor of its passage.


That is just rude.

[Mrs. LPW]

If the letter writing district and general officials had done their duty and enforced the ministerial requirements spelled out in the UPCI manual, would there even be a Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship?

If the UPCI ministers who have chosen to have television in their homes had turned in their credentials instead of going to Tampa and overthrowing the restriction on television advertising, would there be a need for the Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship?

If a pastor wanted to have a youth group that conformed to the standards spelled out in the UPCI manual, would he want to send them to UPC events to play "Amazing Race" and celebrate Dora the Explorer, or would he send them to Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship events?

OH MY

[Mrs. LPW]

Another Question:

If the leadership of the UPC had spent the last two decades upholding the manual rather than chasing the myth of "fastest growing," would there be a Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship today?

Another reason for LPW...

[Mrs. LPW]

Hold the Manual for I am coming... isn't that how the old song goes?
(now that was sarcastic, I know better, I apologize)

[Evang.Benincasa]

http://www.worldwidepf.com/page.php?ID=24

I must say, that all communication from the WPF leadership has displayed a good attitude and spirit.

I think they did a great job on answering the questions.

I think everyone is going to have some powerful revival this year.

[Evang.Benincasa]

If the letter writing district and general officials had done their duty and enforced the ministerial requirements spelled out in the UPCI manual, would there even be a Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship?

If the UPCI ministers who have chosen to have television in their homes had turned in their credentials instead of going to Tampa and overthrowing the restriction on television advertising, would there be a need for the Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship?

If a pastor wanted to have a youth group that conformed to the standards spelled out in the UPCI manual, would he want to send them to UPC events to play "Amazing Race" and celebrate Dora the Explorer, or would he send them to Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship events?

Excuse me but could you please expond on the paragraph that I bolded? What I mean is could you explain your thoughts a little better?

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

www.IfAmericansKnew.com

[Stephanas]

Brother you just condemned people for wanting to change the manuel a few post earlier.

Nope.

I don't have any problem with people wanting to change the manual.

I have a problem with people voting to change the manual when they are, again, in my opinion, not properly entitled to membership in the group they are seeking to change.

This is repetitious, but here goes, "No minister having a television in his or her home shall be permitted to hold license or credentials with the United Pentecostal Church International." Therefore, any minister having a television in his or her home is not entitled to be a member of the UPCI.

Change the manual and have a television in every room of your house, but until you change the manual, live by its requirements. If you can't live by the rules, turn in your credential and go serve the Lord without a UPCI license.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Nope.

I don't have any problem with people wanting to change the manual.

I have a problem with people voting to change the manual when they are, again, in my opinion, not properly entitled to membership in the group they are seeking to change.

This is repetitious, but here goes, "No minister having a television in his or her home shall be permitted to hold license or credentials with the United Pentecostal Church International." Therefore, any minister having a television in his or her home is not entitled to be a member of the UPCI.

Change the manual and have a television in every room of your house, but until you change the manual, live by its requirements. If you can't live by the rules, turn in your credential and go serve the Lord without a UPCI license.

Very good point, very good point. Your Kung Fu is very good.

[Stephanas]

Excuse me but could you please expond on the paragraph that I bolded? What I mean is could you explain your thoughts a little better?

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

www.IfAmericansKnew.com


Probably not.

If a pastor wanted to have a youth group that conformed to the standards spelled out in the UPCI manual, would he want to send them to UPC events to play "Amazing Race" and celebrate Dora the Explorer, or would he send them to Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship events?

But here goes anyway: If I taught my youth group that television is unwholesome and that I wholeheartedly disapprove of them watching television, I wouldn't send them to youth events that appeared to endorse watching television.

[AmazingGrace]

Very good point, very good point. Your Kung Fu is very good.

:tantrum:drama:tantrum



:stirpot


:toofunny:toofunny:toofunny Kung Fu hahahahaha

[Mrs. LPW]

Probably not.



But here goes anyway: If I taught my youth group that television is unwholesome and that I wholeheartedly disapprove of them watching television, I wouldn't send them to youth events that appeared to endorse watching television.

Where are you from Brother?

[tv1a]

The spirit of the merger had nothing to do with television. The tv issue deviated from the true purpose of the merger.

Manual thumper?

I hardly think so, but I do believe that if a person enters into a covenant with a fellowship, they should live by the terms of that covenant.

And, if a person accepts a leadership position in an organization, they have a fiduciary duty to uphold the principles of that organization until the regulations are changed.

[tv1a]

The M-A-N-U-E-L
Yes that's the book for me


Hold the Manual for I am coming... isn't that how the old song goes?
(now that was sarcastic, I know better, I apologize)

[Evang.Benincasa]

But here goes anyway: If I taught my youth group that television is unwholesome and that I wholeheartedly disapprove of them watching television, I wouldn't send them to youth events that appeared to endorse watching television.



Applause nothing but applause, bravo, bravo.:rooting

[Stephanas]

The M-A-N-U-E-L
Yes that's the book for me

The Manual of the UPCI is a contract between the fellowship and its members. Ministers voluntarily enter into the contract - nobody has to be UPC to serve God, preach, or go to Heaven.

But if a minister signs the contract they should live by its terms.

[Stephanas]

Where are you from Brother?

My best guess would be - - - another planet.

BTW, if we're asking personal questions: How much do you weigh? :toofunny

[Evang.Benincasa]

My best guess would be - - - another planet.

BTW, if we're asking personal questions: How much do you weigh? :toofunny

Don't do that.

[TrueNorth]

An interesting post with some valid arguments.

For the record, I'm friends with about 80% of the Tulsa group and preach for them on a regular basis. Additionally, I'm UPC and have been for over 25 years and, again, preach a lot of meetings on most every level of the organization.

That being said, I can tell you that...

(a) I don't know of any 'lies' being told by the key men though there was a lot of confusion pertaining to the 'names' on the 'list' found on their website. From what I have ascertained that was the result of those creating a website who randomly put some names on the 'list' and then gave out the website address for a few other's to see what they were trying to design... NOT a proclaimation that all these men were actually going to be in those positions.

However, as we all know, Pentecost has no problem with 'passing information' along with the gradual changing of stories from person to person on a familiar manner...
"Hey, look at this website design and tell me what you think."
"Hey, look at the website they are putting up."
"Hey, look at the names on this list and tell me what you think."
"Hey, look at this website, did you know Bro. """ is leaving the UPC!"
"Hey, look at Bro. """'s name on this website! Can you believe it! Wait till the 'boys' hear about this!"

We've all seen it before and will see it again. Not so much a 'lie' as a random picking of some names from various areas to fill in the 'details' that were going to be fine tuned later. At least that's what I was told by those who are involved.



The only problem with this post is that it directly contradicts the statement by Bro. King that everyone on the posted list had been asked and had consented.

[Evang.Benincasa]

My best guess would be - - - another planet.

BTW, if we're asking personal questions: How much do you weigh? :toofunny

I thought you said some good words before and gave you a thumbs up, but please don't ruin it by disrespecting the Sister.

[PastorD]

BOOM, you know the answer to that as well as I do. It's the common way to try to discredit the process; if someone is breaking the rules then the rules probably have no merit anyway.

I preached in 20 states and 4 foreign countries last year and, let me see... how many Pastors had television in their homes? How many told me that they have television?

Oh yes... NONE! For all these people who say 'Every Pastor does it' all I can say, as one who preached in over 40 places last year, is that you appear to be dead wrong.


Stead....I think you know, that I too, have preached in more than 40 places last year. All I will say is.....even YOU would be shocked.


:tvhappy

[Steve Epley]

Stead....I think you know, that I too, have preached in more than 40 places last year. All I will say is.....even YOU would be shocked.


:tvhappy

I have been preaching since I was 15 and I can count on both hands the men I preached for who have had televisions. I have preached all across this nation and 4 foreign countries not counting Mississippi.:ouch

[Mrs. LPW]

Ok, Brother, you won't tell me where you're from.. I can respect that, it's certainly your right to remain incognito...

May I ask what churches you are familiar with who hold Amazing Races?

[PastorD]

I have been preaching since I was 15 and I can count on both hands the men I preached for who have had televisions. I have preached all across this nation and 4 foreign countries not counting Mississippi.:ouch

Then, you too, would be shocked.

:reaction

[PastorD]

Manual thumper?

I hardly think so, but I do believe that if a person enters into a covenant with a fellowship, they should live by the terms of that covenant.

And, if a person accepts a leadership position in an organization, they have a fiduciary duty to uphold the principles of that organization until the regulations are changed.

If we are in covenant you would think they would spell my name right in the directory.

:toofunny

[Fiyahstarter]

Let me guess:

Do you also believe that the UPCI's stand against having television in the home is absurd also?

Do you support Hollywood in the home?

I DO believe that the UPCI's stand against TV in the home IS absurd. To follow this logic would be to say I should not have a library in my home, because there are bad books out there too. Come on... get outta my business. I have enough Holy Ghost about me to keep my viewing wholesome.

HOWEVER....

The man's point is valid, folks. How, in good conscience, do UPC pastors sign a statement swearing to uphold the NO TV RULE ... and then not do it??? In my book, this lacks integrity... and if they had been honest to their sworn statement, they would not be able to hold membership in this organization and therefore would NOT have been able to vote. And I suspect Stephanas is right... the vote probably would not have passed.

The order things have occurred is backwards. Logically, the AS and Manual should have been revised before Res 4 passed. (The NO TV RULE should have gone out the window when the internet was allowed.)

JMHO

[Praxeas]

"Furthermore, because of the display of all these evils on television, we disapprove of any of our people having television sets in their homes." (Articles of Faith UPCI)
You didn't answer my question.

[Praxeas]

Correct me if I am wrong, but ain't the UPCI a fellowship of ministers not churches? The manual applies to ministry only and there are somethings they recommend pastors ask of their people.
The UPC articles of faith do not force me to do anything...and as an organization saying "we disapprove of blah blah blah" doesn't mean squat. Pastors can preach that to their saints and then their saints can follow it, but otherwise I don't see how the AOF mean having a TV makes it a sin

[Praxeas]

***sophomoric insult edited out by Praxeas***

I did not post that all the pastors who voted for resolution #4 had televisions in their homes.

You did make having a TV by the voters part of your overall argument. That is an assumption. What difference does it make if you said all or not?

I posted, "If the UPCI ministers who have chosen to have television in their homes had turned in their credentials instead of going to Tampa and overthrowing the restriction on television advertising, would there be a need for the Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship?"

The logical interpretation is that, in my opinion, the number of pastors with televisions voting in favor of resolution #4 was enough to tip the balance in favor of its passage.
No kidding.....I don't see any reason to change what I already said since you are just supporting and reiterating the same assumption

[Joseph Miller]

The Manual of the UPCI is a contract between the fellowship and its members. Ministers voluntarily enter into the contract - nobody has to be UPC to serve God, preach, or go to Heaven.

But if a minister signs the contract they should live by its terms.


Ok, I understand that and also have no problem with that last statement. If you are going to be in the "club" abide by the by laws, that is fair.

[AnotherTrave]

Ok, I understand that and also have no problem with that last statement. If you are going to be in the "club" abide by the by laws, that is fair.

There is much more to this, and everyone that actually lives on this planet knows it.

As the years have passed the little children have grown up to marry and have children, and their children have grown to marry and have children, and now the situation is that the generation that is now trying to deal with this mess had nothing to do with the makeup of the manual to begin with.

The UPC manual is often interpeted by those that remain in the UPC to read that they must exclude anyone that leaves, however now you are asking grandparents to exclude their grandchildren. Those that have "sinned" by leaving the UPC behind can now no longer preach in UPC meetings, and all UPC ministers that remain in the UPC can now no longer preach for them.

At some point we grandparents have come to realize that everyone that tries to change the manual becomes suspect of sin (just follow the posts of this thread and listen to the voices of accusation without merit or proof), and many are choosing to leave to provide for a future where families that have fasted, prayed, and preached together for decades are not estranged because of holding the manual up while casting our brethren away contrary to the Word of God.

These that are going to Tulsa are men of God and they are being spoken of as though they don't know that the sacrifice they are taking today (which will result in hateful spewing of accusations and much anguish) will not immediately have the results that they are hoping for. If we would be honest about it, the UPCI has lost way too many Godly men and women because of the foolish notion that has forced them to leave to effect any real change.

I preached in the early 70's in places where some churches survived but today I find that many of those efforts failed, in so much that the very buildings the services were held in are gone. Two places where I served as assistant pastor have entirely ceased to exist, so I know personally that this great gospel is a battlefield and in some cases our loved ones that have gone on to glory did so with broken hearts when they were no longer allowed to preach for others that they loved (because they had left the UPC) except they were allowed to preach the funeral.

So fine, this is a great fight of faith, but why do we have to devour each other when all they are doing is leaving the "club"? Why can't we allow a little light under the door for these that we weeped with, prayed with, ministered with, and in some cases have died with? Where is our love for one another in the way we are responding to one another in this?

My best friend from high school and one of the first souls to come to Jesus Christ through my ministry, that married my wife's sister, has not been in my home for over 25 years, and yet both of us are still full of the Holy Ghost, and both of us remember vividly the miracles that happened together in the early days. The loss of fellowship and friendship for such a long time was created by the goofy manual requirements that are offensive and in great need of being modified, yet those that have walked in those troubled waters have been greatly attacked and in many cases chased away as though the manual was the bible and they were agents of Satan.

I'm not offended at anyone, I love my brethren, both in and out of the UPC, but I am wondering out loud if we are so quick to condemn the motives of men of such high degree that have chosen to do something outside of our control, I wonder, if the UPCI, as it stands today, will repent of the slanderous ways (be honest, you know what I am talking about) and walk in love, or if instead God will move His flagship blessings on to others that hold the Word of God higher than the words of men. I hope for repentance, but I see judgment coming if we don't start valuing our brethren.

I'm new here, you don't know me, and there is a lot of freedom in being able to just open up your heart and speak without name and face recognition, but if you can hear what I am saying, please pray for us all to walk in love and contend for the unity of the faith.

[tv1a]

The motives of the men are clear, and they aren't godly. What they want to do is eventually put an official stamp of approval on their divisive behavior they already exhibited in years gone by.
There is much more to this, and everyone that actually lives on this planet knows it.

As the years have passed the little children have grown up to marry and have children, and their children have grown to marry and have children, and now the situation is that the generation that is now trying to deal with this mess had nothing to do with the makeup of the manual to begin with.

The UPC manual is often interpeted by those that remain in the UPC to read that they must exclude anyone that leaves, however now you are asking grandparents to exclude their grandchildren. Those that have "sinned" by leaving the UPC behind can now no longer preach in UPC meetings, and all UPC ministers that remain in the UPC can now no longer preach for them.

At some point we grandparents have come to realize that everyone that tries to change the manual becomes suspect of sin (just follow the posts of this thread and listen to the voices of accusation without merit or proof), and many are choosing to leave to provide for a future where families that have fasted, prayed, and preached together for decades are not estranged because of holding the manual up while casting our brethren away contrary to the Word of God.

These that are going to Tulsa are men of God and they are being spoken of as though they don't know that the sacrifice they are taking today (which will result in hateful spewing of accusations and much anguish) will not immediately have the results that they are hoping for. If we would be honest about it, the UPCI has lost way too many Godly men and women because of the foolish notion that has forced them to leave to effect any real change.

I preached in the early 70's in places where some churches survived but today I find that many of those efforts failed, in so much that the very buildings the services were held in are gone. Two places where I served as assistant pastor have entirely ceased to exist, so I know personally that this great gospel is a battlefield and in some cases our loved ones that have gone on to glory did so with broken hearts when they were no longer allowed to preach for others that they loved (because they had left the UPC) except they were allowed to preach the funeral.

So fine, this is a great fight of faith, but why do we have to devour each other when all they are doing is leaving the "club"? Why can't we allow a little light under the door for these that we weeped with, prayed with, ministered with, and in some cases have died with? Where is our love for one another in the way we are responding to one another in this?

My best friend from high school and one of the first souls to come to Jesus Christ through my ministry, that married my wife's sister, has not been in my home for over 25 years, and yet both of us are still full of the Holy Ghost, and both of us remember vividly the miracles that happened together in the early days. The loss of fellowship and friendship for such a long time was created by the goofy manual requirements that are offensive and in great need of being modified, yet those that have walked in those troubled waters have been greatly attacked and in many cases chased away as though the manual was the bible and they were agents of Satan.

I'm not offended at anyone, I love my brethren, both in and out of the UPC, but I am wondering out loud if we are so quick to condemn the motives of men of such high degree that have chosen to do something outside of our control, I wonder, if the UPCI, as it stands today, will repent of the slanderous ways (be honest, you know what I am talking about) and walk in love, or if instead God will move His flagship blessings on to others that hold the Word of God higher than the words of men. I hope for repentance, but I see judgment coming if we don't start valuing our brethren.

I'm new here, you don't know me, and there is a lot of freedom in being able to just open up your heart and speak without name and face recognition, but if you can hear what I am saying, please pray for us all to walk in love and contend for the unity of the faith.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

There is much more to this, and everyone that actually lives on this planet knows it.

As the years have passed the little children have grown up to marry and have children, and their children have grown to marry and have children, and now the situation is that the generation that is now trying to deal with this mess had nothing to do with the makeup of the manual to begin with.

The UPC manual is often interpeted by those that remain in the UPC to read that they must exclude anyone that leaves, however now you are asking grandparents to exclude their grandchildren. Those that have "sinned" by leaving the UPC behind can now no longer preach in UPC meetings, and all UPC ministers that remain in the UPC can now no longer preach for them.

At some point we grandparents have come to realize that everyone that tries to change the manual becomes suspect of sin (just follow the posts of this thread and listen to the voices of accusation without merit or proof), and many are choosing to leave to provide for a future where families that have fasted, prayed, and preached together for decades are not estranged because of holding the manual up while casting our brethren away contrary to the Word of God.

These that are going to Tulsa are men of God and they are being spoken of as though they don't know that the sacrifice they are taking today (which will result in hateful spewing of accusations and much anguish) will not immediately have the results that they are hoping for. If we would be honest about it, the UPCI has lost way too many Godly men and women because of the foolish notion that has forced them to leave to effect any real change.

I preached in the early 70's in places where some churches survived but today I find that many of those efforts failed, in so much that the very buildings the services were held in are gone. Two places where I served as assistant pastor have entirely ceased to exist, so I know personally that this great gospel is a battlefield and in some cases our loved ones that have gone on to glory did so with broken hearts when they were no longer allowed to preach for others that they loved (because they had left the UPC) except they were allowed to preach the funeral.
So fine, this is a great fight of faith, but why do we have to devour each other when all they are doing is leaving the "club"? Why can't we allow a little light under the door for these that we weeped with, prayed with, ministered with, and in some cases have died with? Where is our love for one another in the way we are responding to one another in this?

My best friend from high school and one of the first souls to come to Jesus Christ through my ministry, that married my wife's sister, has not been in my home for over 25 years, and yet both of us are still full of the Holy Ghost, and both of us remember vividly the miracles that happened together in the early days. The loss of fellowship and friendship for such a long time was created by the goofy manual requirements that are offensive and in great need of being modified, yet those that have walked in those troubled waters have been greatly attacked and in many cases chased away as though the manual was the bible and they were agents of Satan.

I'm not offended at anyone, I love my brethren, both in and out of the UPC, but I am wondering out loud if we are so quick to condemn the motives of men of such high degree that have chosen to do something outside of our control, I wonder, if the UPCI, as it stands today, will repent of the slanderous ways (be honest, you know what I am talking about) and walk in love, or if instead God will move His flagship blessings on to others that hold the Word of God higher than the words of men. I hope for repentance, but I see judgment coming if we don't start valuing our brethren.
I'm new here, you don't know me, and there is a lot of freedom in being able to just open up your heart and speak without name and face recognition, but if you can hear what I am saying, please pray for us all to walk in love and contend for the unity of the faith.

This type of things breaks my heart. Wonder how it makes GOD FEEL?

Wonder if anyone ever considered throwing the old rule book (THE MANUAL) out the window and doing what THE WORD says: "To love your brother as your self." Sometimes men's rules divide when God's Word doesn't. Just the opinion from an old timer.

[Walkbyfaith7]

I'm not UPCI but to me if a like minded group of men desire to form a ministerial association then they have that right.
If they don't like the direction the UPCI is headed then,then I applaud them for following their convictions.
If a group of more liberal minded men want to form a ministerial fellowship then they have that right also.
If I left one group to join or help to form another,I would leave on good terms, and in a correct spirit.
If a card is a man's message them he is missing point anyways.
Likeminded folks usually stick together.
I don't care for church politics myself,the cause of Christ and The Kingdom of Heaven are major concerns for me.

Good wisdom brother.

[Timmy]

"ANSWER: Plans are to intrude at Tulsa ..." :toofunny

(From "Education/Training FAQs" (http://www.worldwidepf.com/page.php?ID=28))

Ah, they "fixed" it:

5. QUESTION: When will this be presented?

ANSWER: Plans are to intruduce at Tulsa and described more fully at Branson.
:doh

[rgcraig]

Ah, they "fixed" it:


:doh

Oh my......and that's under education!