Pastor forced to leave by cops @Tulsa Meeting

[Weary Pilgrim]

I'm surprised no one reported this incident.

did you hear about them calling the police on SS. Apparently, he was trying to video the service and they asked him to leave and he wouldn't so they called sheriff where he was escorted out.

This person is NA Urshan's nephew that has pastored for years in Indiana.

[HeavenlyOne]

Someone mentioned it in another thread but didn't have details.

[Sacerdotal]

He's not UPC and hasn't been for years. A change in your thread title would be a nice move to honesty.

The upc gets bashed enough without taking the blame for things they had nothing to do with.

Thread title change please.

[AnotherTrave]

Most large events control the video access, keeping the rights for eventual distribution at a market price. The man ejected was doing wrong.

[IAintMovin]

Ahhhhhhhh....... the very reason I went to Tulsa was to be able to know the facts for myself.......and this sir is a VERY UNTRUE statement...........yes the police did have to escort a man out who was rude and would not submit to those in authority or do as was ask of him.........but a UPCI pastor.......NOTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!! sorry there DJ but you are Wrong on this one......


I will now report this thread and ask for it to be deleted since it is sooo untrue.........or at least get truth in the title.......

[CC1]

I wonder why somebody was so hell bent on videotaping a private meeting? If I were this guys saints I would be so embarresed that my pastor had to have the cops called on him. What an example he is setting.

Now if I felt like for some reason there needed to be a video record of this event you could have discreetly used a high end cell phone with those capibilities.

[rgcraig]

I just wonder why they were so against taping it?

Might have been advantageous of them to allow taping so the story was straight or so doubters could have experienced the good services too.

I doubt anything was said there that wouldn't get out anyway with that many in attendance.

[IAintMovin]

I wonder why somebody was so hell bent on videotaping a private meeting? If I were this guys saints I would be so embarresed that my pastor had to have the cops called on him. What an example he is setting.

Now if I felt like for some reason there needed to be a video record of this event you could have discreetly used a high end cell phone with those capibilities.


well I agree with you on at least one point.........I would have been embarrassed if that guy was my pastor......next day he very rudely walked out talking loud on a cell phone........very uncalled for........

[IAintMovin]

I just wonder why they were so against taping it?

Might have been advantageous of them to allow taping so the story was straight or so doubters could have experienced the good services too.

I doubt anything was said there that wouldn't get out anyway with that many in attendance.

I think it was for the same reasons that BOTT will not allow you to come in and make your own video of the services or many many camps now a days that do not allow taping or if you go to Branson they will not allow you to even take pictures...........this is a common thing in our world today..........believe me (if you can)......there was NOTHING that was trying to be hidden........

[rgcraig]

I think it was for the same reasons that BOTT will not allow you to come in and make your own video of the services or many many camps now a days that do not allow taping or if you go to Branson they will not allow you to even take pictures...........this is a common thing in our world today..........believe me (if you can)......there was NOTHING that was trying to be hidden........

I believe ya and I didn't realize that they were selling CD's or DVD's of the services, so that makes perfect sense.

[CC1]

I just wonder why they were so against taping it?

Might have been advantageous of them to allow taping so the story was straight or so doubters could have experienced the good services too.

I doubt anything was said there that wouldn't get out anyway with that many in attendance.

Renda,

Don't you know by now that camera lens and screens send you to hell? Like the Heathern in the deepest darkest parts of Africa I guess they believe a camera captures their soul along with their image.:happydance


I think it would have been hilarious if NW had proposed his church webcasting next years "Summit". It is going to be interesting to see how he thrives as a leader in a group much more conservative than him.

[Apprehended]

I just wonder why they were so against taping it?

Might have been advantageous of them to allow taping so the story was straight or so doubters could have experienced the good services too.

I doubt anything was said there that wouldn't get out anyway with that many in attendance.

Oh Sister....

If they could just copyright the bible, control God and heaven, then they would have it all wrapped up just they way they would like it to be. Then, THEY could be God and be adored above all that is called God.

Alas, alas, it will not happend. But until it does, just do like Ezekiel and go dig into the hole of the wall and behold the abominations that goes on in there. See for yourself the evil that goes on inside the temple.

I will attend no meeting that I cannot at least tape the meeting with my own little digital recorder, if I so choose. Where the light is not welcome, neither am I. Don't be deceived...GOD IS NOT THERE EITHER.

[IAintMovin]

I believe ya and I didn't realize that they were selling CD's or DVD's of the services, so that makes perfect sense.
Please note, I never said that there were selling Cd's or dvd's.....I stated that it was probably for the same REASON.....not that they were.....I would believe that somewhere in the future they will have some kind of cd or dvd to take home from the meeting...........just wanted to clear the air........

[rgcraig]

Please note, I never said that there were selling Cd's or dvd's.....I stated that it was probably for the same REASON.....not that they were.....I would believe that somewhere in the future they will have some kind of cd or dvd to take home from the meeting...........just wanted to clear the air........

Oh well, if they are not, then that is a bummer.

I would think they would want record of everything that was said to keep the record straight. I guess that does make sense though - why would they be recording the services if they don't believe in media.

[IAintMovin]

Oh well, if they are not, then that is a bummer.

I would think they would want record of everything that was said to keep the record straight. I guess that does make sense though - why would they be recording the services if they don't believe in media.

ROFL........oh believe me they believe in media..............ever seen a Rock Church webcast.........go check it out......I dont have the address or I would post it here but I bet Google does........ :D :D

[Sacerdotal]

Oh Sister....

If they could just copyright the bible, control God and heaven, then they would have it all wrapped up just they way they would like it to be. Then, THEY could be God and be adored above all that is called God.

Alas, alas, it will not happend. But until it does, just do like Ezekiel and go dig into the hole of the wall and behold the abominations that goes on in there. See for yourself the evil that goes on inside the temple.

I will attend no meeting that I cannot at least tape the meeting with my own little digital recorder, if I so choose. Where the light is not welcome, neither am I. Don't be deceived...GOD IS NOT THERE EITHER.

This is a dumb post. It isn't a matter of hiding the so called light but a matter of having the rights to your own material.

Because of the Time does the same thing. Are they hiding the light? Anthony heard of someone selling 100s of copies of bott dvds and publically asked them to stop during theri conference.

Was Mangun, Kilgore, Johnson and all the sponsors hiding the light?

Also, SS is the same, that would get on the radio in Indianapolis every sunday and use the whole of the broadcast to talk against his uncle N. A. Urshan. He would call him by name and make all kinds of crazy accusations. He would picket meetings and act crazy to damage Urshan.

Maybe since he was so right in your eyes God will bless you with someone just like that next time you preach.

[Apprehended]

This is a dumb post. It isn't a matter of hiding the so called light but a matter of having the rights to your own material.





I already knew before I posted it that it would be "dumb" to some.

"Own MATERIAL?"

Well, yes, I suppose it REALLY IS their OWN material. I will concede to that thought.

Who but another nut can excuse the actions of a nut like Steve Schmidt? Sanity does not lend credibility to the insane.

[rgcraig]

ROFL........oh believe me they believe in media..............ever seen a Rock Church webcast.........go check it out......I dont have the address or I would post it here but I bet Google does........ :D :D

Well, then I do question why they didn't want to record the services for those that weren't able to attend or like I said before to have record of what all was said.

Not allowing taping if they are selling CD and DVD's is one thing. It wasn't a secret or closed meeting.

[Whole Hearted]

They did have Cd for sale.

I go to alot of meeting that do not allow video taping. We will be going to a Youth Week en next month that doesnt allow video taping.

[rgcraig]

They did have Cd for sale.

I go to alot of meeting that do not allow video taping. We will be going to a Youth Week en next month that doesnt allow video taping.

Thanks - then that makes perfect sense.

I'm sure the no pictures/cameras allowed was to protect some that were there not sure which way they were going yet. I can understand that too since there were some pastors there without their church's knowledge. Not sure why they would want to keep that fact hid from them.

[The Closer]

This is a dumb post. It isn't a matter of hiding the so called light but a matter of having the rights to your own material.

Because of the Time does the same thing. Are they hiding the light? Anthony heard of someone selling 100s of copies of bott dvds and publically asked them to stop during theri conference.

Was Mangun, Kilgore, Johnson and all the sponsors hiding the light?

Also, SS is the same nutcase that would get on the radio in Indianapolis every sunday and use the whole of the broadcast to talk against his uncle N. A. Urshan. He would call him by name and make all kinds of crazy accusations. He would picket meetings and act crazy to damage Urshan.

Maybe since he was so right in your eyes God will bless you with someone just like that next time you preach.

well i agree with that statement even if i dont agree with tulsa

i cant believe that admin will allow statements such as God is not there either to be posted

looks to me as if someone has an axe to grind

[IAintMovin]

They did have Cd for sale.

I go to alot of meeting that do not allow video taping. We will be going to a Youth Week en next month that doesnt allow video taping.

Thanks WH....didnt know if they had CDs or not........

[rgcraig]

well i agree with that statement even if i dont agree with tulsa

i cant believe that admin will allow statements such as God is not there either to be posted

looks to me as if someone has an axe to grind

It's one person's opinion. We don't censor opinions.

[IAintMovin]

It's one person's opinion. We don't censor opinions.
Go get em Renda.........you da woman..............

[rgcraig]

Go get em Renda.........you da woman..............

Well, if they are bold enough to make a statement that strong, they are only hurting themselves and we can't protect them.

Love the small "wo"

[IAintMovin]

Well, if they are bold enough to make a statement that strong, they are only hurting themselves and we can't protect them.

Love the small "wo"

You know how the term woman came to being dont you...............

[Apprehended]

well i agree with that statement even if i dont agree with tulsa

i cant believe that admin will allow statements such as God is not there either to be posted

looks to me as if someone has an axe to grind

No axe. No axe at all.

I wholly agree that everyone is totally, completely, entirely entitled to copyright, control, and distribute as they please THEIR OWN MATERIAL.

Sorry that you misunderstood.

[The Closer]

No axe. No axe at all.

I wholly agree that everyone is totally, completely, entirely entitled to copywright, control, and distribute as they please THEIR OWN MATERIAL.

Sorry that you misunderstood.

well thank you thank you so much

i am glad to know that God can be there and will dis-allow the statement that you made earlier that if you and your camera are not allowed then it is certain that God is not there either

thank you thank you so much for clearing that up for us

[rgcraig]

No axe. No axe at all.

I wholly agree that everyone is totally, completely, entirely entitled to copywright, control, and distribute as they please THEIR OWN MATERIAL.

Sorry that you misunderstood.

I believe the contention is you stated that God wasn't there. That's a pretty strong statement and one I would argue with since many have said differently.

[IAintMovin]

I believe the contention is you stated that God wasn't there. That's a pretty strong statement and one I would argue with since many have said differently.

That is the way I took it too........but what do I know.......... :D :D :D

[Michael Phelps]

I just wonder why they were so against taping it?

Might have been advantageous of them to allow taping so the story was straight or so doubters could have experienced the good services too.

I doubt anything was said there that wouldn't get out anyway with that many in attendance.

Remember where it was - many of them are against the use of video at all.

[Apprehended]

well thank you thank you so much

i am glad to know that God can be there and will dis-allow the statement that you made earlier that if you and your camera are not allowed then it is certain that God is not there either

thank you thank you so much for clearing that up for us

You are welcome...but,

you are still misunderstanding. I did not use the word camera. A camera can be obnoxious and intrusive. I said, "digital recorder" which is not in the least intrusive.

I said, "God is not there..." But in what sense? Did you not see the context of the report or did you just react EMOTIONALLY? It is hard to deal with anyone on a intellectual level who only responds and reacts emotionally. Go back and read the context. Or should I break it down and spoon feed it to you? OK, I can do that too.

[Apprehended]

Remember where it was - many of them are against the use of video at all.

Right. But, that is only a part of the reason. The other reason is the power of CONTROL.

[The Closer]

You are welcome...but,

you are still misunderstanding. I did not use the word camera. A camera can be obnoxious and intrusive. I said, "digital recorder" which is not in the least intrusive.

I said, "God is not there..." But in what sense? Did you not see the context of the report or did you just react EMOTIONALLY? It is hard to deal with anyone on a intellectual level who only responds and reacts emotionally. Go back and read the context. Or should I break it down and spoon feed it to you? OK, I can do that too.

oh yes i read it all and read it in context and why i even read what you quoted as the base of your comments

i would say that i understood what you were trying to say and did say

thank you so much but i understood and now here you are trying to back out of what you said oh my what ever are we going to do

Right. But, that is only a part of the reason. The other reason is the power of CONTROL.

see here we are again everybody is a control freak and there are you standing on the sidelines with your black robe on

now could it be that it is not about control but about conviction

if you need me to i can send you the link to the help you understand what that word means if not then i suggest webster online

hope that helps

thank you thank you so much

[Apprehended]

I believe the contention is you stated that God wasn't there. That's a pretty strong statement and one I would argue with since many have said differently.

Deu 29:29 The secret [things belong] unto the LORD our God: but those [things which are] revealed [belong] unto us and to our children for ever, that [we] may do all the words of this law.

They either belong to us forever...those things which belong untol the Lord our God, OR they belong to another who has the right to control, copyright, and distribute THEIR OWN STUFF.

But, if God is there and he is advancing HIS Word by His Prophets...THAT does not belong to THEM. THAT belongs to us and our children FOREVER.

I am all for them controlling, copyrighting and distributing their OWN stuff. It is just that I am not in the least INTERESTED in their OWN stuff.

But, I will concede that "God is NOT there," is my opinion. I don't make the laws. Hahaha. :lol Some might think that I do. But no, I do not.

[Apprehended]

The Closer:

A BLACK robe, no less. Goodness. A black one. :lol

You are funny. I bet that you are a very righteous person.

[Michael Phelps]

Deu 29:29 The secret [things belong] unto the LORD our God: but those [things which are] revealed [belong] unto us and to our children for ever, that [we] may do all the words of this law.

They either belong to us forever...those things which belong untol the Lord our God, OR they belong to another who has the right to control, copyright, and distribute THEIR OWN STUFF.

But, if God is there and he is advancing HIS Word by His Prophets...THAT does not belong to THEM. THAT belongs to us and our children FOREVER.

I am all for them controlling, copyrighting and distributing their OWN stuff. It is just that I am not in the least INTERESTED in their OWN stuff.

But, I will concede that "God is NOT there," is my opinion. I don't make the laws. Hahaha. :lol Some might think that I do. But no, I do not.


I find it a bit disturbing - the ease with which you pass judgment.

To even state as a personal opinion "God is not there" seems very arrogant and calloused to me.

Reminds me of Gamaliel, if it's not of God it will come to naught, if it IS of God, we dare not fight it.

And, if God WAS there, you just came against Him.

But, that's just my humble opinion.

[Apprehended]

I find it a bit disturbing - the ease with which you pass judgment.

To even state as a personal opinion "God is not there" seems very arrogant and calloused to me.

Reminds me of Gamaliel, if it's not of God it will come to naught, if it IS of God, we dare not fight it.

And, if God WAS there, you just came against Him.

But, that's just my humble opinion.

Thank you...

and I conceded to Renda that I rendered mine too.

There are a lot of "goings on behind the hole in the wall" that appears so much like God, that is not. We are taught to try the spirits to see if they be of God. I did. I rendered my opinion...a quantity that we are all entitled too.

[Michael Phelps]

Thank you...

and I conceded to Renda that I rendered mine too.

There are a lot of "goings on behind the hole in the wall" that appears so much like God, that is not. We are taught to try the spirits to see if they be of God. I did. I rendered my opinion...a quantity that we are all entitled too.

Understood.

However, were you at the meeting in Tulsa?

[Apprehended]

Understood.

However, were you at the meeting in Tulsa?

As I said before, I would not attend any meeting that would not allow at least my little (unobtrusive) digital recorder. The things of God belong to the children of God. If they do not belong to the children of God forever, then they are not of God. IMHO. But, hey! I've been wrong before...I think. :lol Standing here in my black robe on the sidelines. :D

[Michael Phelps]

As I said before, I would not attend any meeting that would not allow at least my little (unobtrusive) digital recorder. The things of God belong to the children of God. If they do not belong to the children of God forever, then they are not of God. IMHO. But, hey! I've been wrong before...I think. :lol Standing here in my black robe on the sidelines. :D

Oh, ok.

Well, you mentioned trying the spirits, and I was just wondering how you "tried the spirit" if you weren't even there? Thought maybe you were there and heard some things that didn't line up with scripture, or felt a strange spirit during the worship, etc.

Are you making the huge leap that since they won't allow video cameras that God must not be there?

If so, I'd really like some justification on that one.........the scripture you've provided so far is pretty thin........

[Apprehended]

Oh, ok.

Well, you mentioned trying the spirits, and I was just wondering how you "tried the spirit" if you weren't even there? Thought maybe you were there and heard some things that didn't line up with scripture, or felt a strange spirit during the worship, etc.

Are you making the huge leap that since they won't allow video cameras that God must not be there?

If so, I'd really like some justification on that one.........the scripture you've provided so far is pretty thin........

Video cameras? Here we go with video cameras again. I never mentioned video cameras. I would not neccessily want video cameras in my meetings either. There are too many squirrelous or squirrelly people there that would become instant movie actors. The camera has such a way with the squirrely. :lol Ever seen 'em before? You say, "lights," watch 'em tense up. Say "camera," then you can see them clear their throats and get ready. Now say, "Action," man....you've never seen such acting. So no, I did not say "video camera." Too many are not able to handle it.

The scripture that I provided may be thin for some, but it is anvil hard and resolutely sound for me. If I have to go digging in the hole of the wall to find out what is going on behind there, where the spiritual light of day is not shining, I am afraid of which way the ancients are turned and what God they truly worship and what light they are looking to.

Beware of that which seeks to be hid except that they have control of it.

[Michael Phelps]

Video cameras? Here we go with video cameras again. I never mentioned video cameras. I would not neccessily want video cameras in my meetings either. There are too many squirrelous or squirrelly people there that would become instant movie actors. The camera has such a way with the squirrely. :lol Ever seen 'em before? You say, "lights," watch 'em tense up. Say "camera," then you can see them clear their throats and get ready. Now say, "Action," man....you've never seen such acting. So no, I did not say "video camera." Too many are not able to handle it.

The scripture that I provided may be thin for some, but it is anvil hard and resolutely sound for me. If I have to go digging in the hole of the wall to find out what is going on behind there, where the spiritual light of day is not shining, I am afraid of which way the ancients are turned and what God they truly worship and what light they are looking to.

Beware of that which seeks to be hid except that they have control of it.

Lol, ok, I give up.

Let me summarize, and correct me if I'm wrong.

*You did not go to Tulsa.

*You are basing your assumption that God is not there on the fact that they didn't allow filming of any type, camera, digital device, cell phone, etc.

*From that, you likened them to hiding behind a wall, and you are having to look thru the hole in the wall, presumably because there's no video for you to watch.

*So, you use an "Anvil hard" scripture to make the ludicrous claim that "God is not there".

So, my interpretation of your argument is, "Since they will not allow anyone to record their services, they are like the evil children of Israel that worship idols behind walls, and henceforth God is not there"

Did I misinterpret anything?

[OP_Carl]

The danger in arguing with an idiot is that bystanders lose track of which one is which.

[Michael Phelps]

The danger in arguing with an idiot is that bystanders lose track of which one is which.

Hahahahaha, excellent point, OP.

Since I'm not sure which of us you're referring to, I'll abstain from further discussion!

[Whole Hearted]

Right. But, that is only a part of the reason. The other reason is the power of CONTROL.

This is utter nonsense and TOTALLY untrue.

There were many there that are against the use of video.

[Whole Hearted]

I want to add that the Spirit of the Lord was there in a mighty way.

It has been a while since I have been in a meeting where I felt so much of the power of God, and I have been to all kinds of meetings.

[rgcraig]

This is utter nonsense and TOTALLY untrue.

There were many there that are against the use of video.

I corrected your spelling so it'd make better sense. Tattly untrue just wasn't working for me.

[rgcraig]

This is utter nonsense and TOTALLY untrue.

There were many there that are against the use of video.

So, when will they be splitting away from this group? I mean, since not agreeing with everything in UPC was the reason for starting this org.

[Whole Hearted]

I corrected your spelling so it'd make better sense. Tattly untrue just wasn't working for me.

I always made A in school except for one subject, you can guess which one that was.

[Joseph Miller]

now could it be that it is not about control but about conviction




If you are speaking of the Tulsa 6 there is NOT a chance that it is about conviction. It is absolutely 100% about control and men having power.

[Whole Hearted]

It's funny how some here know the six Elders hearts.

I believe it is about conviction and doing what one feels is right.

[Michael Phelps]

If you are speaking of the Tulsa 6 there is NOT a chance that it is about conviction. It is absolutely 100% about control and men having power.

What makes you so sure, brother?

[Cindy]

The danger in arguing with an idiot is that bystanders lose track of which one is which.

yep, preach it.

[Joseph Miller]

What makes you so sure, brother?


These guys were so secret about what they really were doing. They didn't want the truth to be told until just before the meeting. These 6 are men who wanted control in their districts when they were UPCI and didn't get it.

Most of them have been "independant" while still remaining in the UPCI. When they finally saw that things were not going to go exactly like they wanted they got together and formed thier own organization so they can control what goes on within their group.

The 1000 or 1500 or whatever the number of people who attended the meeting may be looking for a place that supports their convictions but the 6 that formed the organization I think really just wanted control. They won't keep it their forever there will be elections and things that will change up the leadership and somoene will not agree on every issue. I just wonder what they will do then.

Are they good men? Yes they are or I have always thought so anyway. I am not saying they are not good men I just believe that their motive is not right. This is all JMHO.

[Michael Phelps]

These guys were so secret about what they really were doing. They didn't want the truth to be told until just before the meeting. These 6 are men who wanted control in their districts when they were UPCI and didn't get it.

Most of them have been "independant" while still remaining in the UPCI. When they finally saw that things were not going to go exactly like they wanted they got together and formed thier own organization so they can control what goes on within their group.

The 1000 or 1500 or whatever the number of people who attended the meeting may be looking for a place that supports their convictions but the 6 that formed the organization I think really just wanted control. They won't keep it their forever there will be elections and things that will change up the leadership and somoene will not agree on every issue. I just wonder what they will do then.

Are they good men? Yes they are or I have always thought so anyway. I am not saying they are not good men I just believe that their motive is not right. This is all JMHO.


I understand, and I agree with you for the most part.

I guess I was just questioning the "NOTHING" part of convictions, I'm sure that has something to do with it.

As I posted on another thread, I think these men have been unhappy in the UPC for a while, and they finally found a cause that many would rally around. I think they've been unhappy with the "liberal" direction the UPC has taken, but it's hard to rally people to leave over jewelry or amusement parks. But, when you start talking television, now THERE'S a worthy cause that more will support.

[Whole Hearted]

I believe they have a very pure motive and that is to have a fellowship of like minded men with whom to fellowship. I was at the meeting and these men where very humble and there was no bad attitudes.

[Michael Phelps]

I believe they have a very pure motive and that is to have a fellowship of like minded men with whom to fellowship. I was at the meeting and these men where very humble and there was no bad attitudes.

I don't doubt that, WH, my question is "Why now"?

I mean, it's obvious that these men have been concerned about the direction the UPC has taken, why did they choose to leave now? Over the advertising on TV issue, when it's obvious that many in the UPC have been advertising or broadcasting on TV for quite a while?

[pelathais]

I don't doubt that, WH, my question is "Why now"?

I mean, it's obvious that these men have been concerned about the direction the UPC has taken, why did they choose to leave now? Over the advertising on TV issue, when it's obvious that many in the UPC have been advertising or broadcasting on TV for quite a while?
I just have a difficult time seeing NW as being that ardent about TV advertising.

He was on his way out a long time ago, though he obviously also wanted to stay. It seems to me that he was of two minds on the whole thing and when he didn't get the CA DS position I think he felt that his ability to influence things the way he saw it was over.

(And who wouldn't have liked to be in position to "clean up" the Western Dist? Talk about a "Herculean Task" and the "Augean Stables!").

I remember back before his move from MI and seeing him having to accept some unfairness. Everyone has to put up with this at some point in their lives. And then it seemed that the UPC never did recognize his talents for what they were. Too much competition. It seemed like many were interested in keeping him quiet so as to minimize his influence on the org. Too many "alpha males" clamoring for significance. Finally he'd had enough and wanted out.

I'm sympathetic to the man on this account. I just don't think he found a good vehicle to get out with. He will again have to make too many compromises and will be endlessly frustrated by the constant infighting and politics.

[Falla39]

Just wanted to mention that one of my brothers (pastors a UPC in Texas) called me
Friday night and during our conversation he said, "I'm in Tulsa". He went alone and I
had no idea he was going. If you want to find out something, check it out yourself!
If an adult is not mature enough to discern or try the spirits, to see if they be of God,
you probably should stay home and keep silent. I didn't go, but I am glad my brother
went because I believe him as I know him to be truthful. I know my brother. If you
went and didn't think God was there, could it be that your spirit was tuned in to
another source!

My brother gave a good report and I received it as such. Wonderful spirit and no
bashing. That's all I care to know or believe at this time. TIME will tell the rest of
the story. And as our late father said many years ago....

"Time changes everything except those things which are eternal. They change
not".

Blessings,

Falla39

[rgcraig]

Sis Falla -- we've been missing you!

[RevBuddy]

This is utter nonsense and TOTALLY untrue.

There were many there that are against the use of video.

You've got to be kidding me??? And THE ISSUE is CONTROL!! Nothing more; nothing less.

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

[RevBuddy]

I believe they have a very pure motive and that is to have a fellowship of like minded men with whom to fellowship. I was at the meeting and these men where very humble and there was no bad attitudes.

This pure motive of which you speak must be an unethical one...very strange bedfellows, if you asked me...

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

[Michael Phelps]

You've got to be kidding me??? And THE ISSUE is CONTROL!! Nothing more; nothing less.

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

I honestly think it's a combination of both. Although I may personally feel that their convictions are misguided, I'm sure they don't. I'm not sure the ratio, but I'd have a hard time saying this is purely, 100% about politics.

However, I do remember in 1992 when the shoe was on the other foot, and several left the UPC in protest over the affirmation statement, they were considered backslidden and there wasn't nearly as much leniency granted them for leaving over THEIR personal convictions.

[Coonskinner]

I honestly think it's a combination of both. Although I may personally feel that their convictions are misguided, I'm sure they don't. I'm not sure the ratio, but I'd have a hard time saying this is purely, 100% about politics.

However, I do remember in 1992 when the shoe was on the other foot, and several left the UPC in protest over the affirmation statement, they were considered backslidden and there wasn't nearly as much leniency granted them for leaving over THEIR personal convictions.


Brother, a major difference between these men and many of the 1992 emigrants is that many of them very quickly dropped their standards and changed their doctrine.

Not so with these men.

Their message and lifestyle is unchanged.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

JM, you are quickly cutting off the hand that could feed you. I dare say the churches you can evangelize in will dimish quickly..... but carry on for all the 40 or so new members who will read your posts here.

[Coonskinner]

JM, you are quickly cutting off the hand that could feed you. I dare say the churches you can evangelize in will dimish quickly..... but carry on for all the 40 or so new members who will read your posts here.


I daresay you are right.

[Michael Phelps]

Brother, a major difference between these men and many of the 1992 emigrants is that many of them very quickly dropped their standards and changed their doctrine.

Not so with these men.

Their message and lifestyle is unchanged.

The why's and wherefore's are inconsequential, my friend. The reason for leaving was the same - new policy violated existing convictions.

The resistance that many of the 1992 "defectors" felt came way before they changed their official stance.

It's the same old song and dance, in my book. A preacher can get up at a General conference, or camp meeting, or any other type of meeting, and preach his personal convictions as far to the right as he cares to, and people will still accept him in the fellowship. However, if a man dares preach a bit to the left, he's blackballed.

I'm not bitter about it, it's just the way it is.

And, I think we're seeing it here as well.

Folks leave because the UPC has gone to the "left" in their opinion, and they are considered martyrs for the faith.

Folks leave because the UPC has gone a bit too far "right" and they are ostracized and considered backsliders.

Just my humble opinion........

[stmatthew]

If you are speaking of the Tulsa 6 there is NOT a chance that it is about conviction. It is absolutely 100% about control and men having power.

I want to address this, because the accusation of these men being control hungry keeps coming up.

From my understanding of reading on this, the formation of this org is set up as such that there are "term limits" on the leadership. Of the Executive Committee, every year, one of the originals will be removed by lot every year, and cannot hold a position for at least one year. This assures that there will be no "Original 6" keeping control in the org.

So tell me, If this is all about control and position, why would the Original 6 create bylaws that will in effect take them out of the leadership position after so long?

[Coonskinner]

I want to address this, because the accusation of these men being control hungry keeps coming up.

From my understanding of reading on this, the formation of this org is set up as such that there are "term limits" on the leadership. Of the Executive Committee, every year, one of the originals will be removed by lot every year, and cannot hold a position for at least one year. This assures that there will be no "Original 6" keeping control in the org.

So tell me, If this is all about control and position, why would the Original 6 create bylaws that will in effect take them out of the leadership position after so long?

That is a good question.

I have wondered the same thing, but really, it wouldn't matter what these men did, they are still the root of all evil to a certain element.

It's funny to me how the UPC can be the great Satan around here until the WWPF comes along, and now all of a sudden they want to defend the old Mothership like they wish they'd never left. :)

[Hoovie]

I always made A in school except for one subject, you can guess which one that was.

uh... P.E.?


:toofunny:happydance

[Falla39]

Sis Falla -- we've been missing you!


Thank you, Sis. Renda,

Sometimes it's just time to be still and know...that HE IS GOD!!!:nod

Blessings,

Falla39

[stmatthew]

That is a good question.

I have wondered the same thing, but really, it wouldn't matter what these men did, they are still the root of all evil to a certain element.

It's funny to me how the UPC can be the great Satan around here until the WWPF comes along, and now all of a sudden they want to defend the old Mothership like they wish they'd never left. :)

You are correct there!! This is actually pretty telling to me.

[LaVonne]

The why's and wherefore's are inconsequential, my friend. The reason for leaving was the same - new policy violated existing convictions.

The resistance that many of the 1992 "defectors" felt came way before they changed their official stance.

It's the same old song and dance, in my book. A preacher can get up at a General conference, or camp meeting, or any other type of meeting, and preach his personal convictions as far to the right as he cares to, and people will still accept him in the fellowship. However, if a man dares preach a bit to the left, he's blackballed.

I'm not bitter about it, it's just the way it is.

And, I think we're seeing it here as well.

Folks leave because the UPC has gone to the "left" in their opinion, and they are considered martyrs for the faith.

Folks leave because the UPC has gone a bit too far "right" and they are ostracized and considered backsliders.

Just my humble opinion........
Not meaning to hijack the thread here...but are you the self-appointed spiritual guru I've been hearing so much about? :stirpot

[Hoovie]

Brother, a major difference between these men and many of the 1992 emigrants is that many of them very quickly dropped their standards and changed their doctrine.

Not so with these men.

Their message and lifestyle is unchanged.

Are you sure Coon?

I think some have changed since the vote.

There have been reports of some swinging to the right, and, depending on your perspective, embracing tenents of leagalism...

Also, there have been several reports of severing relationships and disfellowshipping...

[Michael Phelps]

That is a good question.

I have wondered the same thing, but really, it wouldn't matter what these men did, they are still the root of all evil to a certain element.

It's funny to me how the UPC can be the great Satan around here until the WWPF comes along, and now all of a sudden they want to defend the old Mothership like they wish they'd never left. :)

I've defended the Tulsa brethren on this thread repeatedly, although I have allowed that there is a certain amount of politics involved with this decision.

Here's my take on it - I believe most of them left because they felt that their convictions had finally been violated to a point of no return.

I also believe that's why most of the brethren left back in 1992.

NOw, to the liberals among us, the UPC was bad and the defecting liberal brethren were heroes, or more like patriots, leaving to start a better country.

Unfortunately, the organization that these men started back in '92 didn't go very far, and eventually most of these guys integrated into other existing fellowships.

Now, we have the same, but converse situation. A group of brethren are leaving because they feel their convictions have finally been violated beyond their tolerance level, and to many on the conservative side, they are viewed as heroes, pioneers, and patriots.

It's my strong opinion that this fellowship will not be nearly as large as many think it will, simply because you'll have quite a few people who go check it out and come back to the mothership.

In both cases, you'll notice, the UPC was and is the evil organization forcing good brethren out with it's policies.

The fact of the matter is this - no matter why you leave, you'll be idolized by some and ostracized by some, the issues are inconsequential.

[Michael Phelps]

Not meaning to hijack the thread here...but are you the self-appointed spiritual guru I've been hearing so much about? :stirpot

One and the same, Sister.

Need advice? I'm your man.

Without my sense of balance and deep wisdom, AFF would crumble around our very ears.

On which weighty matter may I consult with you today?

:happydance

[TrueNorth]

The why's and wherefore's are inconsequential, my friend. The reason for leaving was the same - new policy violated existing convictions.

The resistance that many of the 1992 "defectors" felt came way before they changed their official stance.

It's the same old song and dance, in my book. A preacher can get up at a General conference, or camp meeting, or any other type of meeting, and preach his personal convictions as far to the right as he cares to, and people will still accept him in the fellowship. However, if a man dares preach a bit to the left, he's blackballed.

I'm not bitter about it, it's just the way it is.

And, I think we're seeing it here as well.

Folks leave because the UPC has gone to the "left" in their opinion, and they are considered martyrs for the faith.

Folks leave because the UPC has gone a bit too far "right" and they are ostracized and considered backsliders.

Just my humble opinion........

You hit the nail right on the head.

[CC1]

I always made A in school except for one subject, you can guess which one that was.

Logic?:toofunny

[LaVonne]

One and the same, Sister.

Need advice? I'm your man.

Without my sense of balance and deep wisdom, AFF would crumble around our very ears.

On which weighty matter may I consult with you today?

:happydance
I was sure it was some kind of sick joke...now I know it is!!!:toofunny

[Hoovie]

One and the same, Sister.

Need advice? I'm your man.

Without my sense of balance and deep wisdom, AFF would crumble around our very ears.

On which weighty matter may I consult with you today?

:happydance

Wise one, speak the future to us!

What is a 10 year future analysis for the UPCI?

You have the floor.

[Michael Phelps]

Wise one, speak the future to us!

What is a 10 year future analysis for the UPCI?

You have the floor.

*I can confidently state without fear or equivocation, that within the next 10 years the UPC will either grow, shrink, or stay the same.

*It will either become more liberal, more conservative, or will stay the same.

*There will be some who advertise on television, and some who won't.

*There will be some who have television, and some who won't, and some will wear a bag over their head when they walk past the televisions in Best Buy on their way to get a faster internet card.

*There will be some women who cut their hair, some who won't, and some who won't even wash their hair for fear of washing the glory out.

*There will be some men who wear facial hair, and some who won't, and some who take an electric razor to work to shave every 5 minutes, just to be safe, making sure that the evil facial hair doesn't even get a small foothold.

*There will be some churches that grow, some that shrink, and some that stay the same. Some will stay in the organization, some will leave, and others will feel strongly both ways.

*There will most definitely be a new General Superintendent, I think, maybe, possibly, but maybe not.

*There will be liberals and conservatives and moderates and extremists, and sometimes they may not be mutually exclusive.

Now, hopefully, you'll understand now why they call me the guru.

[LaVonne]

*I can confidently state without fear or equivocation, that within the next 10 years the UPC will either grow, shrink, or stay the same.

*It will either become more liberal, more conservative, or will stay the same.

*There will be some who advertise on television, and some who won't.

*There will be some who have television, and some who won't, and some will wear a bag over their head when they walk past the televisions in Best Buy on their way to get a faster internet card.

*There will be some women who cut their hair, some who won't, and some who won't even wash their hair for fear of washing the glory out.

*There will be some men who wear facial hair, and some who won't, and some who take an electric razor to work to shave every 5 minutes, just to be safe, making sure that the evil facial hair doesn't even get a small foothold.

*There will be some churches that grow, some that shrink, and some that stay the same. Some will stay in the organization, some will leave, and others will feel strongly both ways.

*There will most definitely be a new General Superintendent, I think, maybe, possibly, but maybe not.

*There will be liberals and conservatives and moderates and extremists, and sometimes they may not be mutually exclusive.

Now, hopefully, you'll understand now why they call me the guru.

Please...let them wash their hair!!!!!

[Hoovie]

*I can confidently state without fear or equivocation, that within the next 10 years the UPC will either grow, shrink, or stay the same.

*It will either become more liberal, more conservative, or will stay the same.

*There will be some who advertise on television, and some who won't.

*There will be some who have television, and some who won't, and some will wear a bag over their head when they walk past the televisions in Best Buy on their way to get a faster internet card.

*There will be some women who cut their hair, some who won't, and some who won't even wash their hair for fear of washing the glory out.

*There will be some men who wear facial hair, and some who won't, and some who take an electric razor to work to shave every 5 minutes, just to be safe, making sure that the evil facial hair doesn't even get a small foothold.

*There will be some churches that grow, some that shrink, and some that stay the same. Some will stay in the organization, some will leave, and others will feel strongly both ways.

*There will most definitely be a new General Superintendent, I think, maybe, possibly, but maybe not.

*There will be liberals and conservatives and moderates and extremists, and sometimes they may not be mutually exclusive.

Now, hopefully, you'll understand now why they call me the guru.



And there you have it!

A revealing look into the future!

A man who tells it like it is without fear of the stoning he shall recieve should he be wrong.

Let the words of the prophet live forever!

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

And there you have it!

A revealing look into the future!

A man who tells it like it is without fear of the stoning he shall recieve should he be wrong.

Let the words of the prophet live forever!


ahhhh MP is The Prophet.....

funneee

[Michael Phelps]

And there you have it!

A revealing look into the future!

A man who tells it like it is without fear of the stoning he shall recieve should he be wrong.

Let the words of the prophet live forever!

Does this qualify as a thread hijack?:TulsaROCKS:

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Does this qualify as a thread hijack?:TulsaROCKS:

As long as no one is videoing, no one should be offended.....

:tvhappy

[Michael Phelps]

Please...let them wash their hair!!!!!

Don't want to risk it, Sister.

[Apprehended]

Lol, ok, I give up.

Let me summarize, and correct me if I'm wrong.

*You did not go to Tulsa.

*You are basing your assumption that God is not there on the fact that they didn't allow filming of any type, camera, digital device, cell phone, etc.

*From that, you likened them to hiding behind a wall, and you are having to look thru the hole in the wall, presumably because there's no video for you to watch.

*So, you use an "Anvil hard" scripture to make the ludicrous claim that "God is not there".

So, my interpretation of your argument is, "Since they will not allow anyone to record their services, they are like the evil children of Israel that worship idols behind walls, and henceforth God is not there"

Did I misinterpret anything?

:lol

Keep working at it. You are about 60 percent there. Hahaha...

How can God be there? You and I were not? Hear say is not admissible in the court of law. You know how people misrepresent the truth. "No pot is as black as our pot."

You were probably home watching t.v., :tvhappy and I was probably on this dumb computer wondering why the guys in white are looking for me with a straight-jacket while I am trying to make sense of all this confusion. :toofunny

Anyway, so I over stepped the bounds of sanity a half inch, tomorrow is another day. Who knows, I may have been right after all. The wife :crazyluv says that I over step by a country mile some time.

[Whole Hearted]

uh... P.E.?


:toofunny:happydance

No, got A in that .

[Apprehended]

If you are speaking of the Tulsa 6 there is NOT a chance that it is about conviction. It is absolutely 100% about control and men having power.

Step right up and speak into the microphone, brother. I'll tell the sound man to turn up the house speakers.

Now, say it again slowly so that those who fogot what control is all about will thoroughly understand it. You might even use the word "witchcraft" in association with the word, but I'm sure that most of those who had a piano fall on their heads would never get or understand the connection. They might would do well to study "will worship."

Where's my thumbsup sign?

[Barb]

If you are speaking of the Tulsa 6 there is NOT a chance that it is about conviction. It is absolutely 100% about control and men having power.

I have been against this idea of a new org from jump, but quite firmly disagree with this post.

[Barb]

I don't doubt that, WH, my question is "Why now"?

I mean, it's obvious that these men have been concerned about the direction the UPC has taken, why did they choose to leave now? Over the advertising on TV issue, when it's obvious that many in the UPC have been advertising or broadcasting on TV for quite a while?

That's what I'm screamin', Michael...why now?!

[Whole Hearted]

Why not now?

[Barb]

Why not now?

Because the claim is that Rev 4 was not the issue, just the straw.

Had they left before GC or waited for a time, IMHO, it would have been a better move.

Bishop W is one of the finest men of God I know, but has been talking about leaving since he was 26 years old...why choose this point and time to leave?!

But then again, the Tulsa 6 did not check with me and it's their move...God bless their hearts.

[Whole Hearted]

Because the claim is that Rev 4 was not the issue, just the straw.

Had they left before GC or waited for a time, IMHO, it would have been a better move.

Bishop W is one of the finest men of God I know, but has been talking about leaving since he was 26 years old...why choose this point and time to leave?!

But then again, the Tulsa 6 did not check with me and it's their move...God bless their hearts.

I agree it was just the straw, but I think it is the right time.

[Old Paths]

I want to address this, because the accusation of these men being control hungry keeps coming up.

From my understanding of reading on this, the formation of this org is set up as such that there are "term limits" on the leadership. Of the Executive Committee, every year, one of the originals will be removed by lot every year, and cannot hold a position for at least one year. This assures that there will be no "Original 6" keeping control in the org.

So tell me, If this is all about control and position, why would the Original 6 create bylaws that will in effect take them out of the leadership position after so long?

That is a good question.

I have wondered the same thing, but really, it wouldn't matter what these men did, they are still the root of all evil to a certain element.

It's funny to me how the UPC can be the great Satan around here until the WWPF comes along, and now all of a sudden they want to defend the old Mothership like they wish they'd never left. :)



Excuse me, but could you brethren PULEEEZE stop with the sensibility.


:D


[Others may carry on with the bashing]

[Apprehended]

Why now?

DRAMA!

[Michael Phelps]

:lol

Keep working at it. You are about 60 percent there. Hahaha...

How can God be there? You and I were not? Hear say is not admissible in the court of law. You know how people misrepresent the truth. "No pot is as black as our pot."

You were probably home watching t.v., :tvhappy and I was probably on this dumb computer wondering why the guys in white are looking for me with a straight-jacket while I am trying to make sense of all this confusion. :toofunny

Anyway, so I over stepped the bounds of sanity a half inch, tomorrow is another day. Who knows, I may have been right after all. The wife :crazyluv says that I over step by a country mile some time.


Alright, fair enough, lol.

I can accept this line of reasoning, and I"m sure we'll live to scrap another day!

For now, a truce, my half-crazy friend!:happydance

[Apprehended]

Excuse me, but could you brethren PULEEEZE stop with the sensibility.

Right.

All this emotional stimuli is overwhelming. Haha... :lol

[Apprehended]

Alright, fair enough, lol.

I can accept this line of reasoning, and I"m sure we'll live to scrap another day!

For now, a truce, my half-crazy friend!:happydance

:lol

Only half crazy.

I'm losing my sterling reputation.

Now go back to your regularly scheduled :tvhappy

:TulsaNO:

[Cindy]

Just wanted to mention that one of my brothers (pastors a UPC in Texas) called me
Friday night and during our conversation he said, "I'm in Tulsa". He went alone and I
had no idea he was going. If you want to find out something, check it out yourself!
If an adult is not mature enough to discern or try the spirits, to see if they be of God,
you probably should stay home and keep silent. I didn't go, but I am glad my brother
went because I believe him as I know him to be truthful. I know my brother. If you
went and didn't think God was there, could it be that your spirit was tuned in to
another source!

My brother gave a good report and I received it as such. Wonderful spirit and no
bashing. That's all I care to know or believe at this time. TIME will tell the rest of
the story. And as our late father said many years ago....

"Time changes everything except those things which are eternal. They change
not".

Blessings,

Falla39

Best post on this subject IMO.

[StillStanding]

I haven't read this whole thread, but the "preacher" who disrupted and caused the scene has a horrible spirit!

It's one thing to disagree, but to publicly be disobedient to the extent of being disruptive is not Christ-like.

I may have an opinion that God is not pleased with the Tulsa meeting, but it would be arrogant of me to say that God was not there! After all, God is everywhere! :)

[Mrs. LPW]

I'm Johnny Come Lately as well... I haven't read through the entire thread yet.

But when I told my husband about this particular thread he said that it kind of makes sense. You don't usually videotape a business meeting.. so if they were meeting to discuss the preferred alternative... or a new organization etc.. that wouldn't be for the general public.

Falla's comments were wonderful.
I often feel like giving my opinion and often do... but when you read comments from elders in the Lord you feel humbled.

[Apprehended]

I haven't read this whole thread, but the "preacher" who disrupted and caused the scene has a horrible spirit!

It's one thing to disagree, but to publicly be disobedient to the extent of being disruptive is not Christ-like.

I may have an opinion that God is not pleased with the Tulsa meeting, but it would be arrogant of me to say that God was not there! After all, God is everywhere! :)

Good post PM...

God is omnipresent. Indeed he is everywhere, in that sense.

[ChurchMouse]

Just wanted to mention that one of my brothers (pastors a UPC in Texas) called me
Friday night and during our conversation he said, "I'm in Tulsa". He went alone and I
had no idea he was going. If you want to find out something, check it out yourself!
If an adult is not mature enough to discern or try the spirits, to see if they be of God,
you probably should stay home and keep silent. I didn't go, but I am glad my brother
went because I believe him as I know him to be truthful. I know my brother. If you
went and didn't think God was there, could it be that your spirit was tuned in to
another source!

My brother gave a good report and I received it as such. Wonderful spirit and no
bashing. That's all I care to know or believe at this time. TIME will tell the rest of
the story. And as our late father said many years ago....

"Time changes everything except those things which are eternal. They change
not".

Blessings,

Falla39




Thank You for that post, I was there and can honestly say that what your brother said is true, It was a wonderful meeting, no bashing, only worship with a spirit of humbleness. I believe that these men are following their convictions and hopefully will lead our younger ministers who are true to their calling into the right paths.

[HeavenlyOne]

The why's and wherefore's are inconsequential, my friend. The reason for leaving was the same - new policy violated existing convictions.

The resistance that many of the 1992 "defectors" felt came way before they changed their official stance.

It's the same old song and dance, in my book. A preacher can get up at a General conference, or camp meeting, or any other type of meeting, and preach his personal convictions as far to the right as he cares to, and people will still accept him in the fellowship. However, if a man dares preach a bit to the left, he's blackballed.

I'm not bitter about it, it's just the way it is.

And, I think we're seeing it here as well.

Folks leave because the UPC has gone to the "left" in their opinion, and they are considered martyrs for the faith.

Folks leave because the UPC has gone a bit too far "right" and they are ostracized and considered backsliders.

Just my humble opinion........

Thanks for this post. Too bad I can't make it official.

[HeavenlyOne]

I want to address this, because the accusation of these men being control hungry keeps coming up.

From my understanding of reading on this, the formation of this org is set up as such that there are "term limits" on the leadership. Of the Executive Committee, every year, one of the originals will be removed by lot every year, and cannot hold a position for at least one year. This assures that there will be no "Original 6" keeping control in the org.

So tell me, If this is all about control and position, why would the Original 6 create bylaws that will in effect take them out of the leadership position after so long?

I would have to wonder how they expect to keep their org from going the way they believe the UPC did if they won't be in control for more than a year?

It just doesn't make sense.

[CC1]

*I can confidently state without fear or equivocation, that within the next 10 years the UPC will either grow, shrink, or stay the same.

*It will either become more liberal, more conservative, or will stay the same.

*There will be some who advertise on television, and some who won't.

*There will be some who have television, and some who won't, and some will wear a bag over their head when they walk past the televisions in Best Buy on their way to get a faster internet card.

*There will be some women who cut their hair, some who won't, and some who won't even wash their hair for fear of washing the glory out.

*There will be some men who wear facial hair, and some who won't, and some who take an electric razor to work to shave every 5 minutes, just to be safe, making sure that the evil facial hair doesn't even get a small foothold.

*There will be some churches that grow, some that shrink, and some that stay the same. Some will stay in the organization, some will leave, and others will feel strongly both ways.

*There will most definitely be a new General Superintendent, I think, maybe, possibly, but maybe not.

*There will be liberals and conservatives and moderates and extremists, and sometimes they may not be mutually exclusive.

Now, hopefully, you'll understand now why they call me the guru.

I appreciate yoiu stepping out on a limb and making these bold predictions!

[Felicity]

I haven't read this whole thread, but the "preacher" who disrupted and caused the scene has a horrible spirit!

It's one thing to disagree, but to publicly be disobedient to the extent of being disruptive is not Christ-like.

I may have an opinion that God is not pleased with the Tulsa meeting, but it would be arrogant of me to say that God was not there! After all, God is everywhere! :)My thoughts exactly.

[CC1]

I haven't read this whole thread, but the "preacher" who disrupted and caused the scene has a horrible spirit!

It's one thing to disagree, but to publicly be disobedient to the extent of being disruptive is not Christ-like.

I may have an opinion that God is not pleased with the Tulsa meeting, but it would be arrogant of me to say that God was not there! After all, God is everywhere! :)

THREAD HIJACK AHEAD WARNING;

Pianoperson, Mrs. CC1 said your new granddaughter is beautiful! I can't believe you didn't show me the pic.

[HeavenlyOne]

Logic?:toofunny

ROFL!

And I thought I was bad!!!

[CC1]

ROFL!

And I thought I was bad!!!

You are!:happydance

[HeavenlyOne]

You are!:happydance

:D

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

THREAD HIJACK AHEAD WARNING;

Pianoperson, Mrs. CC1 said your new granddaughter is beautiful! I can't believe you didn't show me the pic.

Pictures? New grandbaby? :bemine

[ForeverBlessed]

I haven't read this whole thread, but the "preacher" who disrupted and caused the scene has a horrible spirit!

It's one thing to disagree, but to publicly be disobedient to the extent of being disruptive is not Christ-like. I may have an opinion that God is not pleased with the Tulsa meeting, but it would be arrogant of me to say that God was not there! After all, God is everywhere! :)

I agee with you PM...

and although SS was obviously disruptive and in the wrong spirit... I found it odd that he would even care to be there.... he's been out of the upc a long while. He was always going against the grain however...

To his credit, he is a well educated man... awesome bible teacher and was a very good friend to my dad back in the day.

[The Dean]

I want to address this, because the accusation of these men being control hungry keeps coming up.

From my understanding of reading on this, the formation of this org is set up as such that there are "term limits" on the leadership. Of the Executive Committee, every year, one of the originals will be removed by lot every year, and cannot hold a position for at least one year. This assures that there will be no "Original 6" keeping control in the org.

So tell me, If this is all about control and position, why would the Original 6 create bylaws that will in effect take them out of the leadership position after so long?

That makes too much sense to be accepted by the armchair quarterbacks and conspiracy theorists. You must be deceived.

You're obviously a control freak for being the head Administrator anyway. :toofunny

[The Dean]

If you are speaking of the Tulsa 6 there is NOT a chance that it is about conviction. It is absolutely 100% about control and men having power.

I TOTALLY DISAGREE.

JM, you are quickly cutting off the hand that could feed you. I dare say the churches you can evangelize in will dimish quickly..... but carry on for all the 40 or so new members who will read your posts here.

I TOTALLY AGREE.

[Michael Phelps]

I appreciate yoiu stepping out on a limb and making these bold predictions!

No guts, no glory. I've seldom been accused of playing it safe.

[Apprehended]

[QUOTE=The Dean;370679]I TOTALLY DISAGREE.

You totally disagree?

Then, if you TOTALLY disagree, just how thin can a group split hairs and still be right with their convictions? Just how thin indeed?

Based on convictions alone, shall we burst apart, form separate denominations, organizations, votiing caucuses based on each and every lil' ol' conviction that might loom so greatly in a little mind while it is only hardly worth a mention in a larger mind?

Are convictions right and holy if a break up occurs over wine vs. juice? How about a huge break up over Trib vs. Post Trib.? Just how small can a mind get before these issues become stumbling blocks over which fellowship is no longer acceptable?

If the principles of being in one mind and in one accord in regard to the basics of the gospel that Jesus gave us, is not the ruling CONVICTION, these other so called convictions ARE NOT convictions AT ALL. They are issues of CONTROL at worst, or the product of a deceived heart based on illusions of grandeur and personal importance at best. When one is so deceived as to believe that "I alone know what is best for God's people," their estimation of themselves ranks equal to God. They have forgotten the way of humble service and submission.

On a former post, I got a little radical...which is not hard to do when such issues are presented as grave as the break of fellowship over such STUPID considerations. Truly God is EVERYWHERE, even as David said, though he descended to the lowest hell, he is there also. I should not have made the statement that "God was not there," technically speaking. However, I will say that God is NOT PLEASED.

David got a little radical when he said that all men are liars. :lol I might not get that radical but like two fishermen were talking when one said to another, "All men are liars except you and I...sometimes I wonder about you." Doubts whether or not God is in CONTROL, distrust sewn among bretheren, discord as a result of a vote, passion generated by letter writing, separation from bretheren and collapse of the house of peace is a sure indication that the racket heard is a fox in the hen house.

Darkness is of both mind and spirit. It takes darkness to hide the stealthiness of the working of the enenmy. Yes, God was there but the heat felt was not the heat from heavenly light. There is another source of heat.

[OP_Carl]

What a wordy and tedious response!

[Apprehended]

What a gasbag!

You are so kindly and affection. Your endearing way has made you a real PRIZE.

[pelathais]

What a wordy and tedious response!
Hey OP_Carl, thanks for the "Ammendment" to that post. Your graciousness is an example to all of us who would otherwise be brawling about on this board.

:bow:bow:bow:bow:bow:bow

In the "great spirit" of OP_Carl's action in "taking the high road" I too will attempt to restrain my name-calling and use adjectives instead of nouns.

[CC1]

You totally disagree?

Then, if you TOTALLY disagree, just how thin can a group split hairs and still be right with their convictions? Just how thin indeed?

Based on convictions alone, shall we burst apart, form separate denominations, organizations, votiing caucuses based on each and every lil' ol' conviction that might loom so greatly in a little mind while it is only hardly worth a mention in a larger mind?

Are convictions right and holy if a break up occurs over wine vs. juice? How about a huge break up over Trib vs. Post Trib.? Just how small can a mind get before these issues become stumbling blocks over which fellowship is no longer acceptable?

If the principles of being in one mind and in one accord in regard to the basics of the gospel that Jesus gave us, is not the ruling CONVICTION, these other so called convictions ARE NOT convictions AT ALL. They are issues of CONTROL at worst, or the product of a deceived heart based on illusions of grandeur and personal importance at best. When one is so deceived as to believe that "I alone know what is best for God's people," their estimation of themselves ranks equal to God. They have forgotten the way of humble service and submission.

On a former post, I got a little radical...which is not hard to do when such issues are presented as grave as the break of fellowship over such STUPID considerations. Truly God is EVERYWHERE, even as David said, though he descended to the lowest hell, he is there also. I should not have made the statement that "God was not there," technically speaking. However, I will say that God is NOT PLEASED.

David got a little radical when he said that all men are liars. :lol I might not get that radical but like two fishermen were talking when one said to another, "All men are liars except you and I...sometimes I wonder about you." Doubts whether or not God is in CONTROL, distrust sewn among bretheren, discord as a result of a vote, passion generated by letter writing, separation from bretheren and collapse of the house of peace is a sure indication that the racket heard is a fox in the hen house.

Darkness is of both mind and spirit. It takes darkness to hide the stealthiness of the working of the enenmy. Yes, God was there but the heat felt was not the heat from heavenly light. There is another source of heat.

Give it a few years and we might see new org.'s develop over long sleeves vs. 3/4 length sleeves, open toed shoes vs closed, long uncut hair worn up vs. long uncut hair worn down, etc, etc!!!:toofunny

[TrmptPraise]

Give it a few years and we might see new org.'s develop over long sleeves vs. 3/4 length sleeves, open toed shoes vs closed, long uncut hair worn up vs. long uncut hair worn down, etc, etc!!!:toofunny


Unfortunately, you may not be far from the truth. Men's desire to form fellowships or organizations for a preferred Apostolic direction, may find that direction does not further the gospel any more than the organization it comes out of. I truly believe the introduction of different "yard sticks" are going to further demonstrate our inability to reach our true purpose and mission.

[Apprehended]

Give it a few years and we might see new org.'s develop over long sleeves vs. 3/4 length sleeves, open toed shoes vs closed, long uncut hair worn up vs. long uncut hair worn down, etc, etc!!!:toofunny


That's right.

That is why that I've concluded that it is not a matter of conviction so much as it is a matter of some men determined to have THEIR OWN WAY...read "control." In affect, they are saying, "If I can't have my way swimming around in a big pond, I will have my own way swimming around in a small pond...my own pond."

Just how FINELY can a hair be split, since there are some that want to split hairs? I just hope it never gets to the point that Pastor has to check to see if the women are wearing tongs...or whatever those skimpy things are. Can you image...A non tong wearing organization? Non vs. tong wearing? :lol

[mama bear]

Because the claim is that Rev 4 was not the issue, just the straw.

Had they left before GC or waited for a time, IMHO, it would have been a better move.

Bishop W is one of the finest men of God I know, but has been talking about leaving since he was 26 years old...why choose this point and time to leave?!

But then again, the Tulsa 6 did not check with me and it's their move...God bless their hearts.

Sorry to interrupt, but are you saying Revelation chapter 4 or Resolution 4?

[IAintMovin]

I always made A in school except for one subject, you can guess which one that was.


P.E. ??????.............. :D :D :D

[Apprehended]

Unfortunately, you may not be far from the truth. Men's desire to form fellowships or organizations for a preferred Apostolic direction, may find that direction does not further the gospel any more than the organization it comes out of. I truly believe the introduction of different "yard sticks" are going to further demonstrate our inability to reach our true purpose and mission.

I believe it.

Until we are able to divest ourselves of so many personal interests of non salvational point, returning to the purpose of the great commission, the spirit of Pentecost in which is found one mind and one accord, the continued introduction of "yard sticks" as you call it, will only be a distraction from the ends to which Jesus has commissioned us.

[IAintMovin]

If you are speaking of the Tulsa 6 there is NOT a chance that it is about conviction. It is absolutely 100% about control and men having power.

Man I hate I missed seeing you there.......IMHO this is the dumbest statement you could ever make and proof that you do not know the men who headed this meeting up.........really JM, Think man.........Think...........

[IAintMovin]

JM, you are quickly cutting off the hand that could feed you. I dare say the churches you can evangelize in will dimish quickly..... but carry on for all the 40 or so new members who will read your posts here.

Great Post BOOM..........I daresay that I know of one that he will not be coming to............

[stmatthew]

I want to address this, because the accusation of these men being control hungry keeps coming up.

From my understanding of reading on this, the formation of this org is set up as such that there are "term limits" on the leadership. Of the Executive Committee, every year, one of the originals will be removed by lot every year, and cannot hold a position for at least one year. This assures that there will be no "Original 6" keeping control in the org.

So tell me, If this is all about control and position, why would the Original 6 create bylaws that will in effect take them out of the leadership position after so long?


I would have to wonder how they expect to keep their org from going the way they believe the UPC did if they won't be in control for more than a year?

It just doesn't make sense.


Again, just from what I have read, I think the Original 6 are expecting this to be a "conservative" club, and are making references mandatory. And what I understand is that a position could feasibly be held up to 7 years before being removed from the position. It is on a 1 person per year change in the Executive Committee. Once voted out, the person cannot hold any position for 1 year.


I am in no way the spokes person for WWPF. I have just been reading some of the answers given to men elsewhere online, and am sharing what I know. My personal opinion is that the WWPF would be between the UPCI and the AMF in conservative terms. I am basically watching to see what happens with them. I am independant, and would not join if they let me. Not because I think they are devils. I just ain't interested.

[StillStanding]

Again, just from what I have read, I think the Original 6 are expecting this to be a "conservative" club, and are making references mandatory. And what I understand is that a position could feasibly be held up to 7 years before being removed from the position. It is on a 1 person per year change in the Executive Committee. Once voted out, the person cannot hold any position for 1 year.


I am in no way the spokes person for WWPF. I have just been reading some of the answers given to men elsewhere online, and am sharing what I know. My personal opinion is that the WWPF would be between the UPCI and the AMF in conservative terms. I am basically watching to see what happens with them. I am independant, and would not join if they let me. Not because I think they are devils. I just ain't interested.
I have a couple of questions:

1. Who gets to vote? All preachers that sign up, or just pastors?

2. Can a committee executive return one year after their year to be off? If this is the case, the original committee can continue to control the new group for several years until they retire or die!

I would say a better plan is to vote a new executive board member each year for a 7 year term. When their 7 years are up, they're done! :)

[Whole Hearted]

P.E. ??????.............. :D :D :D

made A in PE thank you.

[Felicity]

Man I hate I missed seeing you there.......IMHO this is the dumbest statement you could ever make and proof that you do not know the men who headed this meeting up.........really JM, Think man.........Think...........LOL! It does help if a person does a little of that. :lol

[bishoph]

The structure of WPF is as follows:

The EC (Executive Council) 6: The chairmen (currently Bro. J Godair) will serve for two years after which they will leave the EC. (The original 6 will serve as honorary members for life but will have no voting power as honorary members)

To replace the EC members, nominations will be taken, and the top three names will be placed in the proverbial hat and one will be chosen. Any EC member must "sit out" for two years before they would be eligible to be nominated again. The EC votes within itself as to who the chairman will be.

On the GC (General Council) 49: Every 2 years 7 members vacate and 7 new members are elected. The vacating GC member must "sit out" two years before they can be nominated again.

To replace those 7, nominations will be taken from the floor, and the top seven names will replace the outgoing members. In the event of a tie for seventh place, those names who tied will be placed in the "hat" and one chosen.

This is the initial framework, however, all members (not just pastors) have the right to present resolutions, (and vote) which if passed can alter any portion of the bylaws and/or Articles of Faith.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

The structure of WPF is as follows:

The EC (Executive Council) 6: The chairmen (currently Bro. J Godair) will serve for two years after which they will leave the EC. (The original 6 will serve as honorary members for life but will have no voting power as honorary members)

To replace the EC members, nominations will be taken, and the top three names will be placed in the proverbial hat and one will be chosen. Any EC member must "sit out" for two years before they would be eligible to be nominated again. The EC votes within itself as to who the chairman will be.

On the GC (General Council) 49: Every 2 years 7 members vacate and 7 new members are elected. The vacating GC member must "sit out" two years before they can be nominated again.

To replace those 7, nominations will be taken from the floor, and the top seven names will replace the outgoing members. In the event of a tie for seventh place, those names who tied will be placed in the "hat" and one chosen.

This is the initial framework, however, all members (not just pastors) have the right to present resolutions, (and vote) which if passed can alter any portion of the bylaws and/or Articles of Faith.

Any idea of how long Resolution #4 would have lasted? :stirpot
(I know the answer)

[OP_Carl]

Hey OP_Carl, thanks for the "Ammendment" to that post. Your graciousness is an example to all of us who would otherwise be brawling about on this board.

:bow:bow:bow:bow:bow:bow

In the "great spirit" of OP_Carl's action in "taking the high road" I too will attempt to restrain my name-calling and use adjectives instead of nouns.

Haha. I blame my asphyxiation for my lapse of judgment. He must have really been goaltending his post to catch that like he did, which made it even funnier for me.

Don't be afraid to also use adverbs, grasshopper.

[stmatthew]

The structure of WPF is as follows:

The EC (Executive Council) 6: The chairmen (currently Bro. J Godair) will serve for two years after which they will leave the EC. (The original 6 will serve as honorary members for life but will have no voting power as honorary members)

To replace the EC members, nominations will be taken, and the top three names will be placed in the proverbial hat and one will be chosen. Any EC member must "sit out" for two years before they would be eligible to be nominated again. The EC votes within itself as to who the chairman will be.

On the GC (General Council) 49: Every 2 years 7 members vacate and 7 new members are elected. The vacating GC member must "sit out" two years before they can be nominated again.

To replace those 7, nominations will be taken from the floor, and the top seven names will replace the outgoing members. In the event of a tie for seventh place, those names who tied will be placed in the "hat" and one chosen.

This is the initial framework, however, all members (not just pastors) have the right to present resolutions, (and vote) which if passed can alter any portion of the bylaws and/or Articles of Faith.

Thank you for the update here. I was going off of old info prior to the meeting.

[Dan'D]

I don't doubt that, WH, my question is "Why now"?

I mean, it's obvious that these men have been concerned about the direction the UPC has taken, why did they choose to leave now? Over the advertising on TV issue, when it's obvious that many in the UPC have been advertising or broadcasting on TV for quite a while?

And why not now?

This last resolution was just the straw that broke the camels back .

Dan'D:
TulsaROCKS::TulsaROCKS::TulsaROCKS::TulsaROCKS:

[Dan'D]

If you are speaking of the Tulsa 6 there is NOT a chance that it is about conviction. It is absolutely 100% about control and men having power.

Let me make a wild guess. You don’t know any of these men because if you did you would not had said that.
Dan’D

:TulsaROCKS::TulsaROCKS::TulsaROCKS: