The 1 Step Salvation plan

[ApostolicTexas]

This movement is gaining ground among the Apostolic/Pentecostal circles as the 21st century "New Issue".They basically teach that faith alone saves just like any other denomination.Salavtion comes before water baptism they say as the example for Corneilus is given as their their prime example.They believe in water baptism in Jesus name..but it does not remit sin as sin was remitted at repentance..some even say no need at at all [to be baptized]and it doesnt matter what formula is used..This doctrine is known as the 1 step and it is actually nothing new..These guys are just good o baptist people baptized in Jesus name!

Some lurk here on this board if you have not yet discovered them!

[Joelel]

This movement is gaining ground among the Apostolic/Pentecostal circles as the 21st century "New Issue".They basically teach that faith alone saves just like any other denomination.Salavtion comes before water baptism they say as the example for Corneilus is given as their their prime example.They believe in water baptism in Jesus name..but it does not remit sin as sin was remitted at repentance..some even say no need at at all [to be baptized]and it doesnt matter what formula is used..This doctrine is known as the 1 step and it is actually nothing new..These guys are just good o baptist people baptized in Jesus name!

Some lurk here on this board if you have not yet discovered them!

Believe means many things.If a person really believes they will do many things.


Acts10:43: To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.So to believe means to Repent and be baptized because Acts 2:38: says,Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,So we must conclude that if believing gives remission of sins and Repenting and being baptized gives remission of sins,then believing don't simply mean to believe Jesus died for your sins and accept him as you savour.

We are also saved by 2 Thes.2:13: But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.We are saved by sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. We are saved by the truth,Not a perverted gospel and lies like alot of people are preaching.

1 John 5:1: Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. We see here that a true believer is born of God.We see that a true believer is one who has repented and been baptized and is sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

.Rom.10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom.10:13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (when do we call on the name of the Lord? In baptism) Acts22:16:And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized,and wash away thy sins,calling on the name of the Lord

So the bottom line is,Jesus is the word of God and if we believe in Jesus we believe the word of truth.ALL OF IT.


Mark 1:14: Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15: And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel

[Aquila]

This movement is gaining ground among the Apostolic/Pentecostal circles as the 21st century "New Issue".They basically teach that faith alone saves just like any other denomination.Salavtion comes before water baptism they say as the example for Corneilus is given as their their prime example.They believe in water baptism in Jesus name..but it does not remit sin as sin was remitted at repentance..some even say no need at at all [to be baptized]and it doesnt matter what formula is used..This doctrine is known as the 1 step and it is actually nothing new..These guys are just good o baptist people baptized in Jesus name!

Some lurk here on this board if you have not yet discovered them!

The key to salvation is repentance. True, honest to God repentance. I know folks who have been water baptized in Jesus name and filled with the Holy Ghost (it's a promise that can be received in faith). However, they are unrepentant. They will find themselves lost in the judgment.

But unto those who "repent" God is faithful and just to forgive them. They are essentially "saved" and their sins are "remitted" meaing "forgiven." But...they have only begun a journey that will take them into obedience. This obedience will lead them to water baptism in Jesus name, thereby identifying them with his death and burial and signifying their remission of sins which took place at repentance. If they refuse to be water baptized in Jesus name they are in rebellion to the Scriptures and stand to loose their soul if they don't repent and obey. Also, upon repenting of sin they are called of God to seek the Holy Ghost. If the believer doesn't continue on into obedience (water baptism, Holy Ghost, and Christian holiness), they are going to grieve the Spirit and end up being lost.

I'm not sure why any Apostolic would believe that all a person must do is "have faith" alone. Faith cannot save anyone unless they repent of their sins. And repentance leads to obedience.

[ApostolicTexas]

Believe means many things.If a person really believes they will do many things.


Acts10:43: To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.So to believe means to Repent and be baptized because Acts 2:38: says,Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,So we must conclude that if believing gives remission of sins and Repenting and being baptized gives remission of sins,then believing don't simply mean to believe Jesus died for your sins and accept him as you savour.

We are also saved by 2 Thes.2:13: But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.We are saved by sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. We are saved by the truth,Not a perverted gospel and lies like alot of people are preaching.

1 John 5:1: Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. We see here that a true believer is born of God.We see that a true believer is one who has repented and been baptized and is sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

.Rom.10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom.10:13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (when do we call on the name of the Lord? In baptism) Acts22:16:And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized,and wash away thy sins,calling on the name of the Lord

So the bottom line is,Jesus is the word of God and if we believe in Jesus we believe the word of truth.ALL OF IT.


Mark 1:14: Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15: And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel

Nothing wrong with Believing..that is the basics..but when it is made into a doctrine of thats all you have to do...then it becomes man made...You totally missed what I was saying,,perhaps your a 1 stepper?

[Neck]

Believe means many things.If a person really believes they will do many things.


Acts10:43: To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.So to believe means to Repent and be baptized because Acts 2:38: says,Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,So we must conclude that if believing gives remission of sins and Repenting and being baptized gives remission of sins,then believing don't simply mean to believe Jesus died for your sins and accept him as you savour.

We are also saved by 2 Thes.2:13: But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.We are saved by sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. We are saved by the truth,Not a perverted gospel and lies like alot of people are preaching.

1 John 5:1: Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. We see here that a true believer is born of God.We see that a true believer is one who has repented and been baptized and is sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

.Rom.10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom.10:13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (when do we call on the name of the Lord? In baptism) Acts22:16:And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized,and wash away thy sins,calling on the name of the Lord

So the bottom line is,Jesus is the word of God and if we believe in Jesus we believe the word of truth.ALL OF IT.


Mark 1:14: Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15: And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel

You simply can't do anything in Repentance and true submission to the Cross.

It is his Grace that saves you.

My Baptism in JN subsequent to salvation and the infilling of the HG by speaking in Tongues.

Is no less powerful then you believing you were not saved until you completed the steps.

One's faith is solely on God's grace to salvation.

Anothers is on the steps.

My faith rest in him....

[ApostolicTexas]

The key to salvation is repentance. True, honest to God repentance. I know folks who have been water baptized in Jesus name and filled with the Holy Ghost (it's a promise that can be received in faith). However, they are unrepentant. They will find themselves lost in the judgment.

[QUOTE]But unto those who "repent" God is faithful and just to forgive them. They are essentially "saved" and their sins are "remitted" meaing "forgiven."


So if they are "saved"why the need for the Holy Ghost?if they are "saved" no need for it...but alas...Without the Spirit we are none of his..and how do we know when we recieve the Spirit?,,hopefully the same way the Apostles knew...the evidence of tongues!

[Michael The Disciple]

Unless a man is born of water and the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Water is water baptism. Spirit is spirit baptism. If one has not believed and repented his experience will not be real. The steps to be "fully saved".

[ApostolicTexas]

Unless a man is born of water and the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Water is water baptism. Spirit is spirit baptism. If one has not believed and repented his experience will not be real. The steps to be "fully saved".

Your 1 Step brthren would disagree with you..Their chief ally and compadre is Corneilus...He was forgiven and filled with the Holy Ghost BEFORE water baptism...I am on your side though :)

[Joelel]

Nothing wrong with Believing..that is the basics..but when it is made into a doctrine of thats all you have to do...then it becomes man made...You totally missed what I was saying,,perhaps your a 1 stepper?

No sir,I'm a full stepper.Only obeying all the word saves.I was showing how a true believer will will obey all the word to be saved.

[Joelel]

Your 1 Step brthren would disagree with you..Their chief ally and compadre is Corneilus...He was forgiven and filled with the Holy Ghost BEFORE water baptism...I am on your side though :)

It don't make any differance what you do first as long as you do it.

[Joelel]

Unless a man is born of water and the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Water is water baptism. Spirit is spirit baptism. If one has not believed and repented his experience will not be real. The steps to be "fully saved".

Hi Michael,Nice seeing you.How's the wife And all ?

[Michael The Disciple]

Your 1 Step brthren would disagree with you..Their chief ally and compadre is Corneilus...He was forgiven and filled with the Holy Ghost BEFORE water baptism...I am on your side though :)

Thats why I said "fully saved".

[Joelel]

Thats why I said "fully saved".

What do you mean fully saved,how is a person partly saved ?

[Aquila]

If God doesn't remit sin at repentance...how did I receive the Holy Ghost well before I was water Baptized? Surely you're not going to tell me that I was a filthy, unforgiven, sinner who received the HOLY Ghost. The Holy Ghost will not dwell in an unclean temple. After I repented...I was clean and forgiven.

[ApostolicTexas]

If God doesn't remit sin at repentance...how did I receive the Holy Ghost well before I was water Baptized? Surely you're not going to tell me that I was a filthy, unforgiven, sinner who received the HOLY Ghost. The Holy Ghost will not dwell in an unclean temple. After I repented...I was clean and forgiven.

I can testify and say the same thing..God did remit my sin at the altar and I also recieved the Holy Ghost! but I was leadd to the waters of baptism a few days later..

This 1 stepper doctrine believes aperson can repent and God forgives them {and I agree]however they will leave them there at the altar hi and dry...will not pray em through to the Holy Ghost..until the evidence comes..

[ApostolicTexas]

What do you mean fully saved,how is a person partly saved ?

Some will say...complete all 3 steps.Acts 2:38

[Aquila]

I believe that water baptism and Holy Ghost infilling are part of obedience. Failing to obey either one can endanger the soul. However, God forgives sin at repentance. If one repents and CANNOT be water baptized or is so sick they cannot speak in tongues, I believe they are forgiven and will be saved. They will not have the same standing in eternity as those who have obeyed and lived faithfully, but they will be saved.

Though God desires that we obey the fulness of Apostolic teaching, God is also gracious and merciful.

[Michael The Disciple]

What do you mean fully saved,how is a person partly saved ?

Hi Joelel,

The wife is having to fight harder of late. But she still does much of what she always has. Thanks for your prayers.

Faith and repentance are the basis of the new birth. However if one is not born of water and the spirit they cannot enter the kingdom of God. So the salvation process begins with faith. Everything else proceeds from it.

Jesus taught the Apostles about the new birth. At Pentecost Peter and the rest did not teach sinners what faith only teachers tell them. They asked

WHAT MUST WE DO?

The Apostles said Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission/forgiveness of sins and you shall receive the Holy Spirit.

Whats wrong with saying what THEY SAID? WERE THEY WRONG?

If they were not wrong that means they were right.

The confusion comes in when people are taught wrong or incompletely at the start. Then when they hear all of the new birth message they become confused. I had the same experience.

Thats why the Oneness Pentecostals should not draw back on Acts 2:38. They were a bright light for the Oneness and new birth truths that Elohim raised up.

Yes he works with us where we are. But a trip to the altar alone will not guarantee a trip to Heaven.

Water baptism is ALWAYS presented in scripture in salvation terms.

Paul says without the Spirit we are none of his.

Why not teach it all from the start and be like the Apostles?

Let US be willing to change and not force change upon the word.

[OneAccord]

This movement is gaining ground among the Apostolic/Pentecostal circles as the 21st century "New Issue".They basically teach that faith alone saves just like any other denomination.Salavtion comes before water baptism they say as the example for Corneilus is given as their their prime example.They believe in water baptism in Jesus name..but it does not remit sin as sin was remitted at repentance..some even say no need at at all [to be baptized]and it doesnt matter what formula is used..This doctrine is known as the 1 step and it is actually nothing new.. These guys are just good o baptist people baptized in Jesus name!

Some lurk here on this board if you have not yet discovered them!

Evidently, Tex, you don't come around AFF very often. If you did, you would know this subject has been discussed, studied, examined, debated and argued over since... well, for a long time. And, as you most surely should know, there are different views now, just as there has always been different views. A great organization (of which I am not a member) was formed in 1945 that brought together two groups- one of which were, as you characterize, "One Steppers", the other "Three-steppers". An amazing, miraculous feat, I must say, which, in todays polarized atmosphere among Apostolic people, would be virtually impossible. But, if I understand Apostolic history, that feat of unity in 1945 could only be accomplished through the inspiration of one man, who sat down in a room and was given the words that lead to the formation of the United Pentecostal Church. Something about standing for the differing views but not to the disunity of the Body. When these words were read to the committee they all wept, embraced and praised God that He, through the inspiring words of that document, paved the way for the formation of what we call now "The UPCI".

Course, as I understand, those words are hard to find today. They have all but disappeared from the annals of the UPC. Also, disappearing, it seems, is the spirit in which those words were written. Now, "1 stepper" brethren, of which, though I despise this disivive and carnal "labeling", I am happy to align myself with, are called Baptist. We have been called compromisers. Its been said we deny the need for, or the importance of, water baptism. In short, a huge blanket has been thrown over all who don't align or conform themselves to "accepted Apostolic views". The spirit that brought people together is gone. Division and separatism is all that is left. 1992, recent events. Can we not see that the docment of 1945 was the "tie that binds"? I stand corrected. It wasn't the document. It wasn't the words. It was the spirit. It was the attitude. The "first love" is being forsaken.

Another division is in the offing, I predict. That will be when one-steppers and three-steppers go their separate ways. There will be those who will rejoice and say "Good riddance". Then there will be those who will weep as Jesyus wept over Jerusalem. I will weep when I see another wedge of divsion being driven between brethren who have prayed and preached together. Just as our Apostolic forefathers wept when they were dismissed from the Assemblies of God, and brethren who loved one another were forced to break fellowship, more fellowship is being broken now... and more will come later.

The blanket you have thrown over your "one-stepper" brethren doesn't fit, Brother. We do not deny the need for water baptism, and, while there are some who may say this, your characterization is unfair. Your referring to us as Baptist is as accurate as those who accuse "three-steppers" of being "legalist" and Pharisees. The spirit from which those labels come is not pleasing to the Lord. We are brethren, who share the common expereince of being filled with the same Spirit, whether we recieved that experience before baptism or after.

I pray that we Apostolic believers, whether we be ALJC, UPC, or, now WPF or whatever, can come back to the desire for unity.I have written much on this forum about UNITY, but it goes into oblivion with berely a comment, because UNITY is though of as an impossible dream. An unachievable goal. I sometime wonder if wwe even desire to UNITE as Christ prayed in the garden. But, I , and others, pray. I pray that we can build our foundations, not on a pet doctrine or belief, but on the Lord Jesus Christ. I pray our fellowship with one another can be based, not on a manual or card, but on that Self-Same Spirit, that fills us to overflowing. Finally, I pray that our love for one another, shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost, will transcend doctrinal and organizational barriers just as it has transcended (hopefully) racial prejudice. I pray that we will one day share in the spirit of Abraham who spoke the words below.....

(A footnote: Many of us do not lurk, brother. There is no need to dicover us, nor do we need to be "outted". We stand emphatically for what we believe and, when necessary, we (at least some of us)respectfully disagree with others without resorting to name calling and unfair and misleading characterizations. And, now I can speak only for myself, we extend a right hand of fellowship, with ALL of our Apostolic brethren and sisters, without favor and partialilty. We believe absolutely and resolutely in what the NT teaches: We are one in Christ.)

[Felicity]

Evidently, Tex, you don't come around AFF very often. If you did, you would know this subject has been discussed, studied, examined, debated and argued over since... well, for a long time. And, as you most surely should know, there are different views now, just as there has always been different views. A great organization (of which I am not a member) was formed in 1945 that brought together two groups- one of which were, as you characterize, "One Steppers", the Other "Three-steppers". An amazing, miraculous feat, I must say, which, in todays polarized atmosphere among Apostolic people, would be virtually impossible. But, if I understand Apostolic history, that feat of unity in 1945 could only be accomplished through the inspiration of one man, who sat down in a room and was given the words" that lead to the formation of the United Pentecostal Church. Something about standing for the differing views but not to the disunity of the Body.When these words were read to the committee they all wept, envraced and praised God that He, through the inspiring words of that document, paved the way for the formation of what we call now "The UPCI".

Course, as I understand, those words are hard to find today. They have all but disappeared from the annals of the UPC. Also, disappearing, it seems, is the spirit in which those words were written. Now, "1 stepper" brethren, of which, though I despise this disivive and carnal "labeling", I am happy to align myself with, are called Baptist. We have been called compromisers. Its been said we deny the need for, or the importance of, water baptism. In short, a huge blanket has been thrownover all who don't align or conform themselves to "accepted Apostolic views". The spirit that brought people together is gone. Division and separatism is all that is left. 1992, recent events. Can we not see that the docment of 1945 was the "tie that binds"? I stand corrected. It wasn't the document. It wasn't the words. It was the spirit. It was the attitude. The "first love" is being forsaken.

Another division is in the offing, I predict. That will be when one-steppers and three-steppers go their separate ways. There willbe those who will rejoice and say "Good riddance". Then there will be those who will weep. I will weep when I see another wedge of divsion being driven between brethren who have prayed and preached together. Just as our Apostolic forefathers wept when they were dismissed from the Assemblies of God, and brethren who loved one another were forced to break fellowship, more fellowship is being broken now... and more will come later.

The blanket you have thrown over your "one-stepper" brethren doesn't fit, Brother. We do not deny the need for water baptism, and, while there are some who may say this, your characterization is unfair. Your referring to us as Baptist is as accurate as those who accuse "three-steppers" of being "legalist" and Pharisees. The spirit from which those labels come is not pleasing to the Lord. We are brethren, who share the common expereince of being filled with the same Spirit, whether we recieved that experience before baptism or after.

I pray that we Apostolic believers, whether we be ALJC, UPC, or, now WPF, can come back to the desire for unity. I pray that we can build our foundations, not on a pet doctrine or belief, but on the Lord Jesus Christ. I pray our fellowship with one another can be based, not on a manual or card, but on that Self-Same Spirit, that fills us to overflowing. Finally, I pray that our love for one another, shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost, will transcend doctrinal and organizational barriers just as it has transcended (hopefully) racial prejudice. I pray that we will one day share in the spirit of Abraham who spoke the words below.....

(A footnote: Many of us do not lurk, brother. There is no need to dicover us, nor do we need to be "outted". We stand emphatically for what we believe and, when necessary, we respectfully disagree with others. And, now I can speak only for myself, we extend a right hand of fellowship, with ALL of our Apostolic brethren and sisters, without favor and partialilty. We are one in Christ.)Good post! Great spirit!

[Joelel]

If God doesn't remit sin at repentance...how did I receive the Holy Ghost well before I was water Baptized? Surely you're not going to tell me that I was a filthy, unforgiven, sinner who received the HOLY Ghost. The Holy Ghost will not dwell in an unclean temple. After I repented...I was clean and forgiven.

Repentance remits sin and water baptism washes sins away.The word speaks of baptism of repentance,and Holy Ghost and water.A meaning of baptism is to clean or purefiy.Each baptism cleans a person to an extent.

Acts.22
[16] And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Mark.1
[4] John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Luke.3
[3] And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

Acts.2
[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Matt.3
[11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

The bottom line is,everything God set in order is needed.

[brotherjason]

Ok, this is all new to me. The onesteppers or faith alone or what ever label you want to put there. I have an honest sincere no flaying or roasting, just a question. Do you folks still baptize in the name of Jesus Christ and get the Holy Ghost according to Acts 2:38 and just believe that maybe all those who disagree with you don't go to hell?

[ChristopherHall]

I believe that salvation "begins" at repentance. Baptism seals the deal. For example a marriage begins at the engagement. Once two people have betrothed one another they have forsaken all others and the unconditional love and acceptance is there. Perhaps they have even forgiven arguments that took place while dating. BUT....the marriage isn't sealed until the wedding ceremony.

A sinner repents and they begin their relationship with the Lord. God gives them love and acceptance and calls them his own. He then may fill them with the Holy Ghost though they have yet to be water baptized. Then when they are water baptized in the name of Jesus the deal is sealed. Their sins are forgiven and they are now a part of the New Covenant.

Some people have faith and repent of sin, and they begin a relationship with the Lord. God may even fill them with the Holy Ghost because he loves them. However, until they are water baptized they are only having a romance with the Lord...they've yet to become part of the bride.

It takes all three steps.

[OneAccord]

Ok, this is all new to me. The onesteppers or faith alone or what ever label you want to put there. I have an honest sincere no flaying or roasting, just a question. Do you folks still baptize in the name of Jesus Christ and get the Holy Ghost according to Acts 2:38 and just believe that maybe all those who disagree with you don't go to hell?

Bro Jason- While I can't answer for everyone I can say this: The One Step Plan is a misnomer. It seems to imply that all one needs to do is believe in order for one to be saved. Some may believe that, but, the majority believe otherwise.
To put it simply, most one steppers (I hate the falacy of the name) believe one is "saved" at repentance. Their sins are forgiven and washed away at repentance. But they, nor I, believe it ends there. Again, not speaking for everyone, but we believe the FIRST STEP of the new life in Christ is to obey the Lord in the waters of baptism, by being baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Further, we believe the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is a free gift to those who have repented of their sins. Thats the reason, we believe it is a fact that people recieve the Holy Ghost even before they are baptized. I won't cite Acts 10 here, because it has been suggested that the experience of Cornelius household is our only foundation. It isn't. I will cite Acts 2. On the very day that Peter preached Acts 2:38, the BELIEVERS were filled with the Holy Ghost BEFORE they were baptized in water. They were, in fact, filled with the Holy Ghost BEFORE Peter preached this that we call the Plan of Salvation. By this simple fact it would appear that sins are forgiven at repentance.

It has been my observation that, with the 3 stepper view, salvation becomes an almost unattainable goal. It is taught that we are not saved at repentance. We are not saved, in fact, at water baptism. And, we are not yet saved until the Holy Ghost is given. In fact. other stipulations are added.One cannot be saved until they have a complete understanding of the Godhead. Others say a complete and total adherrance to "standards" is required fpr salvation. I admit, this is a generalization, but, no more so than those generalizationas as put forth at the beginning of this thread.

One steppers use several biblical anologies to state their position. One if the flood. Noah and his family were safe (saved) when the entered the ark. Then they were carried away by the water (baptism). Next, they found new ground, (the newness of life, the Holy Ghost). Most one steppers I know see this as a clear type of the plan of Salvation. We are saved at repentance. We respond to that salvation by submitting to water baptism. Then we recieve the Holy Ghost, though, perhaps not necessarily in that exact order.

The next biblical type is the death, burial resurrection of Jesus Christ. His death, when His Blood was spilled, purchased our salavtion. Our sins were remitted when His Blood was spilled. Through His forgiveness, our sinful nature died there at the foot of the Cross. Then, our sinful life was buried in water baptism just as the Body of Jesus Who bore our sins was buried in the tomb. We were then resurrected to a new life through that same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead.

Yes, Brother, we do believe in Acts 2:38. We do not deny the need for, even the necessity of, water baptism. It is a necessary step- a step of obedience to God's Word.

[Aquila]

Repentance remits sin and water baptism washes sins away.The word speaks of baptism of repentance,and Holy Ghost and water.A meaning of baptism is to clean or purefiy.Each baptism cleans a person to an extent.

Acts.22
[16] And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Mark.1
[4] John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Luke.3
[3] And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

Acts.2
[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Matt.3
[11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

The bottom line is,everything God set in order is needed.

I got the Holy Ghost BEFORE I was water baptized…how did I receive the HOLY GHOST before I was cleansed or purified????

They had to schedule my water baptism a few days out due to having no baptismal available. Do you mean to tell me that even though I had repented of sin and God filled me with the Holy Ghost I would have gone to Hell if I died in a car accident on the way to the church service where I was baptized????!!!!!!

Please answer the question! If I wasn’t cleansed, washed, or my sins were not forgiven until my baptism…HOW DID I RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST AFTER REPENTANCE ALONE?

[Aquila]

If the 3 steppers are right people CANNOT get the Holy Ghost before water baptism. For God will not pour out his Spirit upon an unclean, unforgiven, unwashed, vessel. Every time GOD HIMSELF forgives and fills a repentant believer with the Holy Ghost, he testifies against the 3 stepper’s dogma.

The 3 stepper offers us theories...1 steppers have an "experience".

[brotherjason]

Thanks One Accord (wish we all were). I guess I'm a third party here. I believe in strict adherence to the apostles doctrine, I preach it, I talk it and I wont say there is any other way to be saved. But I have gotten to the point that if a person dies and hasn't been baptized right or had the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues, I don't venture a guess as to where they go, at that point it is between them and God and has nothing to do with me. I know God's merciful and I am not infallible so I just leave it at that.
Lol, and if it doesn't make any sense, lol, blame it on the pain pills! Yep, I'm unfortunately on them too!

[Joelel]

I got the Holy Ghost BEFORE I was water baptized…how did I receive the HOLY GHOST before I was cleansed or purified????

They had to schedule my water baptism a few days out due to having no baptismal available. Do you mean to tell me that even though I had repented of sin and God filled me with the Holy Ghost I would have gone to Hell if I died in a car accident on the way to the church service where I was baptized????!!!!!!

Please answer the question! If I wasn’t cleansed, washed, or my sins were not forgiven until my baptism…HOW DID I RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST AFTER REPENTANCE ALONE?

I know you must continue in all truth to be saved.I believe if you couldn't get to the water to be baptized you would be saved but if you refuse to be baptized as soon as possable you may be lost.

1 Tim.004:016Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; (teachings,word,Truth) continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

[Aquila]

If you believe that one is cleansed, washed, sins are remitted in the waters of baptism…how does this differ from the doctrine of “Baptismal Regeneration”?
Are 3 steppers believers in Baptismal Regeneration???? It certainly sounds so like they are.

[Aquila]

If a man has repented of his sins, been filled with the Holy Ghost, and is standing in the water about to be baptized, but at that very moment the church is raided by a militant resistance and he is shot standing in the water the 3 stepper would say he was lost to burn in an eternal Hell.

That makes no sense.

One is “saved” at repentance. If they are able and not water baptized the issue is disobedience. If they are able and do not seek the Holy Ghost the issue is disobedience.

[OneAccord]

Thanks One Accord (wish we all were). I guess I'm a third party here. I believe in strict adherence to the apostles doctrine, I preach it, I talk it and I wont say there is any other way to be saved. But I have gotten to the point that if a person dies and hasn't been baptized right or had the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues, I don't venture a guess as to where they go, at that point it is between them and God and has nothing to do with me. I know God's merciful and I am not infallible so I just leave it at that.
Lol, and if it doesn't make any sense, lol, blame it on the pain pills! Yep, I'm unfortunately on them too!

In agreement with what you say, Brother, especially the bolded part. There is no other way to be saved. No other Name. And I appreciate the fact that you don't "venture a guess". Unfortunately, many do. Like the disciples asking, "Why iis this man sick? Did he, or his parents, commit sin?". (Paraphrase). No one could answer that but Jesus the Healer. No one can answer who is saved and who is not but the Savior.

[OneAccord]

I got the Holy Ghost BEFORE I was water baptized…how did I receive the HOLY GHOST before I was cleansed or purified????

They had to schedule my water baptism a few days out due to having no baptismal available. Do you mean to tell me that even though I had repented of sin and God filled me with the Holy Ghost I would have gone to Hell if I died in a car accident on the way to the church service where I was baptized????!!!!!!

Please answer the question! If I wasn’t cleansed, washed, or my sins were not forgiven until my baptism…HOW DID I RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST AFTER REPENTANCE ALONE?

In answer to your question. Yes. You would split hell wide open. At least, thats according to the view of some. I have read it on one of these forums that babies that die before they are baptized go to torment. (I don't know what happens to babies that die before birth or are aborted). Even the mentally ill are consigned to hell in some areas of thought. I can't imagine a God like that. I just thank God that He doesn't see through the eyes of those who believe such!

Your second question cannot be logically answered by those brethren and sisters who hold to the 3 stepper view. Its been asked before (I think by you on another thread). Your question leads to a paradox in 3 stepper theology. A loophole. However, when we read the Word ofGod for what It says, and not for what we have been taught it says, the loophole is solved. Thank God for His eternal truth!

[RandyWayne]

I too received the holy ghost and literally started speaking in tongues with the same sort of muscle reaction that people experience when they wake up with a sudden jolt. And yes, this was at least a couple of weeks before I was baptized.

Now I did receive a very strong conviction to get baptized, but the big CHANGE in my life happened after receiving the holy spirit. I could give a list of all the things I suddenly stopped doing (or started) -often without even realizing it, but the point is that the BIG change seems to come with the infilling. Again, I felt the strong urge to get baptized but had I died in the two weeks between.....

People often get upset at hypotheticals but you still have to consider your "typical" airplane crash. On 9/11, would God have denied anyone on any of those planes who cried our to him as the planes were going down?

[Michael The Disciple]

Yes we are aware of Cornelius receiving the Spirit before baptism. It presents us with a challenge in understanding our view of the new birth. But consider that this works both ways.

When I was early in my walk something bothered me. I had repented and I also had received the Holy Spirit with tongues and prophecy following. I was loving Jesus and happy in him.

However every time I would read this verse:

16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16

That sure sounded like one needed to be baptized to be saved. I did not know any Oneness Pentecostals then so this was something between me and the word of God. That scripture sure sounded a lot like THIS:

38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

Baptism for the remission of sins?

Certain scriptures seemed to say my experience was not complete. Until I was baptized it always tugged at my heart when I saw them.

So if one was on the side of the fence I was THOSE SCRIPTURES seemed out of place somehow. We thought IF ONE BELIEVED and confessed Christ was risen from the dead (Romans 10:9) they were saved.

Yet there was scripture seeming to say we were not saved or at best not "fully saved".

So when people bring up Cornelius ok. But just like myself there are people on the other end of this discussion who can see scripture pointing them on to yet more truth.

[ApostolicTexas]

In answer to your question. Yes. You would split hell wide open. At least, thats according to the view of some. I have read it on one of these forums that babies that die before they are baptized go to torment. (I don't know what happens to babies that die before birth or are aborted). Even the mentally ill are consigned to hell in some areas of thought. I can't imagine a God like that. I just thank God that He doesn't see through the eyes of those who believe such!

Your second question cannot be logically answered by those brethren and sisters who hold to the 3 stepper view. Its been asked before (I think by you on another thread). Your question leads to a paradox in 3 stepper theology. A loophole. However, when we read the Word ofGod for what It says, and not for what we have been taught it says, the loophole is solved. Thank God for His eternal truth!

OneAccord...are you a 1 stepper?

[ApostolicTexas]

I even heard 1 steppers say..if they repent and are bapitzed later and never speak in tongues at all...they STILL recieved the Holy Ghost!

[Felicity]

I even heard 1 steppers say..if they repent and are bapitzed later and never speak in tongues at all...they STILL recieved the Holy Ghost!Good heavens! What do you think it is that people receive that creates such amazing spiritual transformation in their life?

[ApostolicTexas]

Good heavens! What do you think it is that people receive that creates such amazing spiritual transformation in their life?

Perhaps you support the 1 step doctrine?.

well people in the Bible who recieved the Spirit spoke in tongues..not sure what the baptist,methodist recieve..you tell me with scripture :)

[Felicity]

Perhaps you support the 1 step doctrine?.

well people in the Bible who recieved the Spirit spoke in tongues..not sure what the baptist,methodist recieve..you tell me with scripture :)1 step doctrine opposed to the 3 step doctrine or the 4 step doctrine or the 7 step doctrine?

What about just following and obeying Scripture. That's the best way. Forget about the numbers.

:D:D:D

[ApostolicTexas]

1 step doctrine opposed to the 3 step doctrine or the 4 step doctrine or the 7 step doctrine?

What about just following and obeying Scripture. That's the best way. Forget about the numbers.

:D:D:D

I agree 100% especially the ones on where and what the Apostle taught..Acts 2:38...No where did they teach a sinners prayer or a repeat after me prayer..it was repentance and water bapitism in Jesus name with the evidence of speakin in tongues..

[Felicity]

I agree 100% especially the ones on where and what the Apostle taught..Acts 2:38...No where did they teach a sinners prayer or a repeat after me prayer..it was repentance and water bapitism in Jesus name with the evidence of speakin in tongues..No kidding. Well what do you know, eh?!!

:toofunny

[ApostolicTexas]

I know enough to get into trouble...LOL..

[Felicity]

I know enough to get into trouble...LOL.. Repent!


:toofunny

[OneAccord]

OneAccord...are you a 1 stepper?

No, I'm not a one stepper. I say that because, though I agree with that view, I believe salvation is not a one step or even a three step process. It is a process that begins at repentance and continues until death or the 2nd coming, whichever comes first. Just as life begins at conception and continues until we die, salvation began the moment I repented of my sins. During my spiritual lifes journey I maintain my salvation by obediently following my Master. That obedience consists of much more than just water baptism. I thank God for that chilly November night when I submitted myself to water baptism in His Name. I'm thankful for the night in Janyary 1971 when a trinitarian preacher by the name of Brother R.W. Schambach laid hands on me and I recieve the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues. I'm thankful for the revelation of who Jesus is. But more than anything, I thank Him for the day that, while reading my prayers from a Catholic Prayer Book, He forgave my sins and they were washed away in the Blood of Jesus shed for me at Calvary.

[ApostolicTexas]

No, I'm not a one stepper. I say that because, though I agree with that view, I believe salvation is not a one step or even a three step process. It is a process that begins at repentance and continues until death or the 2nd coming, whichever comes first. Just as life begins at conception and continues until we die, salvation began the moment I repented of my sins. During my spiritual lifes journey I maintain my salvation by obediently following my Master. That obedience consists of much more than just water baptism. I thank God for that chilly November night when I submitted myself to water baptism in His Name. I'm thankful for the night in Janyary 1971 when a trinitarian preacher by the name of Brother R.W. Schambach laid hands on me and I recieve the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues. I'm thankful for the revelation of who Jesus is. But more than anything, I thank Him for the day that, while reading my prayers from a Catholic Prayer Book, He forgave my sins and they were washed away in the Blood of Jesus shed for me at Calvary.


That is a safe anwser..

Dont you get a feeling sometimes that maybe it really dont matter?..What if a person repents gets baptized and never speaks in tongues..What if Schambach will make it to heaven being a trinitarian....questions questions

[Neck]

What did paul mean in 1 Cor 1:17

For Christ sent me not to Baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the Power of God.

I understand that Paul said, who can forbid water.

His message of the Gospel was that the Cross of Jesus Christ is the power of God unto salvation.

Neck

[ApostolicTexas]

What did paul mean in 1 Cor 1:17

For Christ sent me not to Baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the Power of God.

I understand that Paul said, who can forbid water.

His message of the Gospel was that the Cross of Jesus Christ is the power of God unto salvation.

Neck

Ahhhhhhh I know of a group who believes you must repent and recieve the Holy Ghost w/tongues...but water baptism is not important..no tongues ..no salvation...maybe you heard of them...Isaiah 58 ministry..

[OneAccord]

That is a safe anwser..

Dont you get a feeling sometimes that maybe it really dont matter?..What if a person repents gets baptized and never speaks in tongues..What if Schambach will make it to heaven being a trinitarian....questions questions

Yes, I really do think it really doesn't matter. In fact, much of what we discuss and debate and disagree over really doesn't matter. Most of it, if not all, is "much ado about nothing". What does matter is the UNITY of the Body. That was the final prayer of Jesus before the Cross which should make it of prime importance to us all. These labels we so carelessly throw about undermine His prayer for us.

As far as Bro. Schambach is concerned. I don't know about his final destination. That is between him and God. Until then, like any Spirit-filled Christian, I regard him as a brother in the Lord which I highly esteem.

[ApostolicTexas]

Yes, I really do think it really doesn't matter. In fact, much of what we discuss and debate and disagree over really doesn't matter. Most of it, if not all, is "much ado about nothing". What does matter is the UNITY of the Body. That was the final prayer of Jesus before the Cross which should make it of prime importance to us all. These labels we so carelessly throw about undermine His prayer for us.

As far as Bro. Schambach is concerned. I don't know about his final destination. That is between him and God. Until then, like any Spirit-filled Christian, I regard him as a brother in the Lord which I highly esteem.

You would have no problem going to Triniatarian church and being comfortable would you..? Do you consider Baptist,Methodist all saved too?

[OneAccord]

You would have no problem going to Triniatarian church and being comfortable would you..? Do you consider Baptist,Methodist all saved too?

That depends. If the speakers are too loud, the heat is too high, or the seats are hard, no, I probably wouldn't be too comfortable. But I have no problem visiting a trinitarian church. One of the first churches I ever preached in after recieving the revelation of the Godhead was Mountainview Church of God. In fact, tomorrow evening, members of Lea's Chapel Baptist Church and East Brow Community Church are invited to our house to hold a service for my wife and to pray for her. I don't consider anyone as saved including myself. Thats God's job. Not mine.

[ApostolicTexas]

In agreement with what you say, Brother, especially the bolded part. There is no other way to be saved. No other Name. And I appreciate the fact that you don't "venture a guess". Unfortunately, many do. Like the disciples asking, "Why iis this man sick? Did he, or his parents, commit sin?". (Paraphrase). No one could answer that but Jesus the Healer. No one can answer who is saved and who is not but the Savior.

But Jesus prayed for those who would believe on him THROUGH the Apostles Words..{Jn 17:20)We have Acts thats tells us what they taught..it is either we line up with that..or we do not..I do not believe every denomination has it right..Only by comparing ourselves with the examples found in Acts can anyone stand sure that they have followed anf obeyed the teaching of the Apostles.

Accepting the Lord as my personal savior or saying a repeat after me prayer is not found in scripture..therefore "confess and believe" only...doctrine is just basics..and not the complete plan..we must be Born Again of water ANd of the Spirit..

[Neck]

Ahhhhhhh I know of a group who believes you must repent and recieve the Holy Ghost w/tongues...but water baptism is not important..no tongues ..no salvation...maybe you heard of them...Isaiah 58 ministry..

I believe Baptism is a part of salvation. However Baptism and Acts 2:38 is not a leap over or around the cross.

So much so it said, take up your cross daily.

If you sin willfully after receiving the promise you put to dealth again the son of God.

You are baptized once if in JN.

You however should take a trip to the cross daily.

That is he message Paul was sharing about the gospel...

[Neck]

Ahhhhhhh I know of a group who believes you must repent and recieve the Holy Ghost w/tongues...but water baptism is not important..no tongues ..no salvation...maybe you heard of them...Isaiah 58 ministry..

Great assumption just not a thought on the scripture.

[OneAccord]

But Jesus prayed for those who would believe on him THROUGH the Apostles Words..{Jn 17:20)We have Acts thats tells us what they taught..it is either we line up with that..or we do not..I do not believe every denomination has it right..Only by comparing ourselves with the examples found in Acts can anyone stand sure that they have followed anf obeyed the teaching of the Apostles.

Accepting the Lord as my personal savior or saying a repeat after me prayer is not found in scripture..therefore "confess and believe" only...doctrine is just basics..and not the complete plan..we must be Born Again of water ANd of the Spirit..

I don't think ANY denomination has it right, including Apostolic denominations. They know what they know... some are close, but I think what we don't know far outweighs what we do know. I think we know how a computer works, we just don't know how it works. Some may know more about than me, but we know enough to make the computer work.

Only by comparing ourselves with the examples found in Acts can anyone stand sure that they have followed anf obeyed the teaching of the Apostles.

I understand what you are saying here. But, Brother (and excuse me if I have that wrong), it isn't the teachings of the Apostles that we follow and obey. Paul made it clear that his teaching was the Gospel OF Jesus Christ.

I would be in complete agreement had you said:

Only by comparing ourselves with the example of Jesus can anyone stand sure that they have followed and obeyed the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I, in fact, do adhere to what I understand the Apostles taught. To understand fully what they taught, we must read beyond Acts 2:38.

[ApostolicTexas]

I don't think ANY denomination has it right, including Apostolic denominations. They know what they know... some are close, but I think what we don't know far outweighs what we do know. I think we know how a computer works, we just don't know how it works. Some may know more about than me, but we know enough to make the computer work.



I understand what you are saying here. But, Brother (and excuse me if I have that wrong), it isn't the teachings of the Apostles that we follow and obey. Paul made it clear that his teaching was the Gospel OF Jesus Christ.

I would be in complete agreement had you said:



I, in fact, do adhere to what I understand the Apostles taught. To understand fully what they taught, we must read beyond Acts 2:38.



This where Peter opened the door...He was given the Keys...This was the message of Jesus ..Mark 16,Matthew 28:19,Luke 24:45-49 all rolled into one scripture..Peter's words are the foundation as each group found in scripture were all understood and followed His words..If anyone today does not follow these teachings...of repentance of sin,water baptism in Jesus name and recieve the Holy Ghost and yes/evidence of tongues then they are going through another door that was never opened.We to be built upon the foundation of the apostles..Ephesians 2:20..There is One body...there is no compromise...

[ApostolicTexas]

Hi Joelel,

The wife is having to fight harder of late. But she still does much of what she always has. Thanks for your prayers.

Faith and repentance are the basis of the new birth. However if one is not born of water and the spirit they cannot enter the kingdom of God. So the salvation process begins with faith. Everything else proceeds from it.

Jesus taught the Apostles about the new birth. At Pentecost Peter and the rest did not teach sinners what faith only teachers tell them. They asked

WHAT MUST WE DO?

The Apostles said Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission/forgiveness of sins and you shall receive the Holy Spirit.

Whats wrong with saying what THEY SAID? WERE THEY WRONG?

If they were not wrong that means they were right.

The confusion comes in when people are taught wrong or incompletely at the start. Then when they hear all of the new birth message they become confused. I had the same experience.

Thats why the Oneness Pentecostals should not draw back on Acts 2:38. They were a bright light for the Oneness and new birth truths that Elohim raised up.

Yes he works with us where we are. But a trip to the altar alone will not guarantee a trip to Heaven.

Water baptism is ALWAYS presented in scripture in salvation terms.

Paul says without the Spirit we are none of his.

Why not teach it all from the start and be like the Apostles?

Let US be willing to change and not force change upon the word.

I wholeheartily agree with this...why change something that Paul dared and angel to change?

[ApostolicTexas]

Evidently, Tex, you don't come around AFF very often. If you did, you would know this subject has been discussed, studied, examined, debated and argued over since... well, for a long time. And, as you most surely should know, there are different views now, just as there has always been different views. A great organization (of which I am not a member) was formed in 1945 that brought together two groups- one of which were, as you characterize, "One Steppers", the other "Three-steppers". An amazing, miraculous feat, I must say, which, in todays polarized atmosphere among Apostolic people, would be virtually impossible. But, if I understand Apostolic history, that feat of unity in 1945 could only be accomplished through the inspiration of one man, who sat down in a room and was given the words that lead to the formation of the United Pentecostal Church. Something about standing for the differing views but not to the disunity of the Body. When these words were read to the committee they all wept, embraced and praised God that He, through the inspiring words of that document, paved the way for the formation of what we call now "The UPCI".

Course, as I understand, those words are hard to find today. They have all but disappeared from the annals of the UPC. Also, disappearing, it seems, is the spirit in which those words were written. Now, "1 stepper" brethren, of which, though I despise this disivive and carnal "labeling", I am happy to align myself with, are called Baptist. We have been called compromisers. Its been said we deny the need for, or the importance of, water baptism. In short, a huge blanket has been thrown over all who don't align or conform themselves to "accepted Apostolic views". The spirit that brought people together is gone. Division and separatism is all that is left. 1992, recent events. Can we not see that the docment of 1945 was the "tie that binds"? I stand corrected. It wasn't the document. It wasn't the words. It was the spirit. It was the attitude. The "first love" is being forsaken.

Another division is in the offing, I predict. That will be when one-steppers and three-steppers go their separate ways. There will be those who will rejoice and say "Good riddance". Then there will be those who will weep as Jesyus wept over Jerusalem. I will weep when I see another wedge of divsion being driven between brethren who have prayed and preached together. Just as our Apostolic forefathers wept when they were dismissed from the Assemblies of God, and brethren who loved one another were forced to break fellowship, more fellowship is being broken now... and more will come later.

The blanket you have thrown over your "one-stepper" brethren doesn't fit, Brother. We do not deny the need for water baptism, and, while there are some who may say this, your characterization is unfair. Your referring to us as Baptist is as accurate as those who accuse "three-steppers" of being "legalist" and Pharisees. The spirit from which those labels come is not pleasing to the Lord. We are brethren, who share the common expereince of being filled with the same Spirit, whether we recieved that experience before baptism or after.

I pray that we Apostolic believers, whether we be ALJC, UPC, or, now WPF or whatever, can come back to the desire for unity.I have written much on this forum about UNITY, but it goes into oblivion with berely a comment, because UNITY is though of as an impossible dream. An unachievable goal. I sometime wonder if wwe even desire to UNITE as Christ prayed in the garden. But, I , and others, pray. I pray that we can build our foundations, not on a pet doctrine or belief, but on the Lord Jesus Christ. I pray our fellowship with one another can be based, not on a manual or card, but on that Self-Same Spirit, that fills us to overflowing. Finally, I pray that our love for one another, shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost, will transcend doctrinal and organizational barriers just as it has transcended (hopefully) racial prejudice. I pray that we will one day share in the spirit of Abraham who spoke the words below.....

(A footnote: Many of us do not lurk, brother. There is no need to dicover us, nor do we need to be "outted". We stand emphatically for what we believe and, when necessary, we (at least some of us)respectfully disagree with others without resorting to name calling and unfair and misleading characterizations. And, now I can speak only for myself, we extend a right hand of fellowship, with ALL of our Apostolic brethren and sisters, without favor and partialilty. We believe absolutely and resolutely in what the NT teaches: We are one in Christ.)

Why do you label yourself if You are indeed a Baptist?..I thought this was a Apostolic Forum as in general...

Your right..I do not come around here often..thousands of forums out there I do not hang out with the same everyday...some get busy and some get boring..this one is just like the Texas weather :) before You go out and place me in a bin labled "______" you have to know and understand my background and my upbringing..I speak from a sincere heart though words may come out differently.I will admit..This is my first exsposure to such and I perhaps stand on that line they did back in 1945..I want the truth..I believe I have always been in it but here comes this and you wonder...

[OneAccord]

Why do you label yourself if You are indeed a Baptist?..I thought this was a Apostolic Forum as in general...

Your right..I do not come around here often..thousands of forums out there I do not hang out with the same everyday...some get busy and some get boring..this one is just like the Texas weather before You go out and place me in a bin labled "______" you have to know and understand my background and my upbringing..I speak from a sincere heart though words may come out differently.I will admit..This is my first exsposure to such and I perhaps stand on that line they did back in 1945..I want the truth..I believe I have always been in it but here comes this and you wonder...


Brother, I don't label myself. I hope to be labelled "good and faithful servant", but thats not my call. Thats His call. I am not, nor have I ever been, a member of the Baptist faith. To my knowledge, I have never been baptized in the Name of the F, S, HG, I don't believe or teach "eternal security, nr do I teach the trinity doctrine. I have never asked anyone to repeat the sinners prayer, nor do I invite them to "Come forward to accept Jesus". If I were a preacher (which, I am not), I would urge the lost to repent of their sins. Once they did so, I would encourage them to be baptized in Jesus' Name and be filled with the Holy Ghost w/ evidence of speaking in tongues.

I apologize if you feel I have unfairly placed you in some type of bin. However, if you'll look back at my post, the only label I ever placed on you was "brother". I don't question your sincerity. I believe you are honest and sincere in your continued search for truth.

In that search, you will encounter a great number of beliefs. Even on this forum. While it is basically Apostolic, the veiws among Apostolics vary widely. I was quite amazed when I first came here at the diversity among people who claim the very same truth. And, to be honest, was dismayed at the disunity that diversity brings up. But, such is the nature of internet forums. It surprises me that it all doesn't come crashing down around our ears. But, I believe the Holy Spirit girds up this forum because of people like you who are sincere in their search for truth. Honest and open dialog without hostility and animosity is the very hallmark of the Christian faith. To discuss the things of God with openess and civility is what Christians do.

As far as the compromise you spoke of, you are correct, there is no compromise in the Word of God. But there are differences in understanding. There are differing views. And, will I may not agree with a different view than mine, I respect the one who holds that view, and I respect his or her right to speak that view. Is it compromise to refrain from telling everyone I disagree with "You're wrong"? No, its not compromise. Its civility. Am I compromising when I refrain from judging another persons relationship with the Lord, even if I disagree with them doctrinally? No, because I don't, I can't, judge another person. I pray for them, maybe speak with them, but I will not disobey the Scriptures by telling them they are lost because they don't see the Scriptures in the same light I see the Scriptures. And I won't debate the Scriptures with a brother because it is my conviction that debate has no place in the Body of Christ. Of this, the Apostle Paul spoke very clearly.

There is no compromise in the Word. Look over my posts... have I suggested a compromise? A compromise is to change a belief to accomodate anothers views. I don't do that. I stand firmly on how I understand, not just the Words of the Apostles, not just on Acts 2:38, but on the Bible in its entirety. Theres much I don't know. May even be wrong on some things. I hope not. But, if I am, I trust the Holy Ghost to lead and guide me into all truth. I believe your last sentence. You want truth. You believe you are in truth. But now you wonder. Been there. Done that. When I was a part of William Brahams church, I thought I was in truth. And I was. I was in truth as I understood it. But, over time, because I wnted truth, I sought it outside Bro. Branhams teaching. I sought truth from God's Word. And I, too, began to wonder.

That wondering led me out of the Branham Movement and my continued search for truth brought to where I am today... an Apostolic brother who is still seaching the Scriptures for His truth.

[Aquila]

Let me repeat my question because it was missed.

If you believe that one is cleansed, washed, sins are remitted in the waters of baptism…how does this differ from the doctrine of “Baptismal Regeneration”?
Are 3 steppers believers in Baptismal Regeneration???? If not explain how the 3-Stepper doctrine differes from Baptismal Regeneration.

[Aquila]

Repentance remits sin and water baptism washes sins away. The word speaks of baptism of repentance, and Holy Ghost and water. A meaning of baptism is to clean or purefiy. Each baptism cleans a person to an extent.

What is sin’s “substance”? What part of “sin” runs down the drain of the baptismal? The “washing” is figurative, it’s symbolic of a clean conscience because one has obeyed...there isn’t anything actually “washed away”. You’re confusion figurative language with the idea of literal “sin grime” that needs to be washed away in water.

Acts.22
[16] And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Read this verse closely…

“…and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” The “washing” comes with calling on the name of the Lord in faith and repentance.

Mark.1
[4] John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Luke.3
[3] And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

John’s baptism was symbolic of a cleansing that takes place at repentance. Without repentance it was of no value.

Acts.2
[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Most commentaries and commentators will testify that the Greek here indicates “for the remission of sins” means “because of the remission of sins” in the sense of the remission already received at repentance. It’s symbolic of what has already happened spiritually.

Matt.3
[11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Again the baptism spoken of here was predicated upon repentance not “water washing” of sin substance from the soul. It was repentance that cleansed the soul and water baptism that symbolically expressed this outwardly. Baptism is a symbolic sacrament of sorts not a regenerating application of grace via water.

The bottom line is,everything God set in order is needed.

Yes…however repentance is the source. Water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost are steps of obedience performed by a repentant and forgiven heart.

[upciguy26]

1 steppers seem to focus on a conversion decision to be saved. 3 steppers usually focus on a decision plus action outlined in the scripture to be saved. While both are correct in many assertions, only in the middle can truth be found.

To repent and be baptized is a decision, a decision based on the Holy Ghost drawing you. No man can come unto Jesus Christ and turn to him unless the Spirit draws him. The birth of the Spirit then is not just the infilling, but the "total" change brought about by the Spirit.

The Holy Ghost does many things. The Spirit draws us to Christ, convicts us of sin, fills us till we overflow, and leads us into all truth. How can we scripturally say there is only one part of the work of the Holy Ghost that is important?

Consider the "all or none" mentality. How did the apostles treat the Samaritans who did not have the Holy Ghost but were repentant and baptized? They came and prayed for them that they might receive the Spirit. Of course this is our commission. Needlessly it would be though to allow someone to believe they are lost until so and so happens. Jesus said it all when he said, Except ye repent you shall all likewise perish. Or when he said, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Or when he said, Except a man be born of the water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The point I would make here is, it is the church's job to see that there is both a baptism and a seeking of the Spirit in a person's life, for both are required. However it is not the church's job to condemn anyone on the basis of what they have doesn't count.

[upciguy26]

Early historical documents conclude the Christian church taught baptism as not a symbolic observation, but a response to belief in Jesus Christ. There is a baptismal regeneration that occurs. However it ONLY occurs where true faith and repentance is there. Philip would not of baptized the Eunuch unless he met certain criteria. That criteria is the criteria of faith. Baptism can only remit where faith is present.

Faith without works cannot remit, for it is dead faith.

[ApostolicTexas]

Early historical documents conclude the Christian church taught baptism as not a symbolic observation, but a response to belief in Jesus Christ. There is a baptismal regeneration that occurs. However it ONLY occurs where true faith and repentance is there. Philip would not of baptized the Eunuch unless he met certain criteria. That criteria is the criteria of faith. Baptism can only remit where faith is present.

Faith without works cannot remit, for it is dead faith.

Nice post and no one could argue the truth spoken here..It is true Jesus commanded two things..repent and be bapitzed..if a person repents and is baptized in Jesus name..they are promised to recieve the Spirit..This would definitely be the part of God..the problem arises in "my mind"and it goes by the teaching I seen and heard..that the person who repented and was bapitzed but did not speak in tongues was consider not saved..

It is hard to imagine that God did not forgive that person and He is justified with God..perhaps we should be content to do our part and that is to preach the message and allow God to do his part..Can we live the fact that 1 year has gone by and Bro Sew and sew has never spoke with tongues..?

[upciguy26]

Nice post and no one could argue the truth spoken here..It is true Jesus commanded two things..repent and be bapitzed..if a person repents and is baptized in Jesus name..they are promised to recieve the Spirit..This would definitely be the part of God..the problem arises in "my mind"and it goes by the teaching I seen and heard..that the person who repented and was bapitzed but did not speak in tongues was consider not saved..

It is hard to imagine that God did not forgive that person and He is justified with God..perhaps we should be content to do our part and that is to preach the message and allow God to do his part..Can we live the fact that 1 year has gone by and Bro Sew and sew has never spoke with tongues..?

The scripture does not indicate such scenarios. We can only deal with scenarios we see in scripture. I do not find where Peter condemned the Samaritans for not speaking with tongues (aka Receiving the Spirit for the first time). We must leave such to God. I do not believe anyone has the authority to say they are not saved, for God alone can say that. We do however know that we must repent, be baptized, and receive the Holy Ghost to experience the biblical full plan of salvation.

This is what apostolics must preach and live by. I think we can be unjudging though in situations such as these. Everyone that God promises something can receive it surely for He is no respecter of persons. May God help us to lead these baptized by water but not Spirit people to the full experience God intended for them and leave the judging up to God.

I for one call them brother and sister.

[ApostolicTexas]

The scripture does not indicate such scenarios. We can only deal with scenarios we see in scripture. I do not find where Peter condemned the Samaritans for not speaking with tongues (aka Receiving the Spirit for the first time). We must leave such to God. I do not believe anyone has the authority to say they are not saved, for God alone can say that. We do however know that we must repent, be baptized, and receive the Holy Ghost to experience the biblical full plan of salvation.

This is what apostolics must preach and live by. I think we can be unjudging though in situations such as these. Everyone that God promises something can receive it surely for He is no respecter of persons. May God help us to lead these baptized by water but not Spirit people to the full experience God intended for them and leave the judging up to God.

I for one call them brother and sister.

I believe the emphasis on baptism in the name..not repeating Matthew 28:19 as most denominations do..how bout you?

[Rev]

I believe the emphasis on baptism in the name..not repeating Matthew 28:19 as most denominations do..how bout you?

It's 11:40 and I have the whole site to my self, so I thought I'd just fill up every thread as being the last poster!

:toofunny :toofunny :toofunny :toofunny :toofunny :toofunny :toofunny

[Jason B]

If the 3 steppers are right people CANNOT get the Holy Ghost before water baptism. For God will not pour out his Spirit upon an unclean, unforgiven, unwashed, vessel. Every time GOD HIMSELF forgives and fills a repentant believer with the Holy Ghost, he testifies against the 3 stepper’s dogma.

The 3 stepper offers us theories...1 steppers have an "experience".


As long as the end result is fulfilling John 3:5 and ACTS 2:38, i don't think it matters, the biggest thing is to fulfill these 2 scriptures.

[Jason B]

Three steppers, ultra con, etc.

This board has more private labels than the grocery store.

[ChristopherHall]

The gospel is the life, death, and resurrection of Christ to atone for mankind's sin.

The proper response to that gospel is repentance, water baptism in Jesus name, and receiving the promise of the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

Some people have only been taught to respond with repentance. Some only have opportunity to respond to repentance. Some also receive the Holy Ghost as promised. Some do not.

I don't believe in receiving the Holy Ghost on credit. To some degree sins are forgiven at Repentance or one couldn't receive the Holy Ghost prior to baptism. To what degree or of what nature that forgiveness is I'm not sure. Ultimately I believe we do well to allow God alone to be the judge of men's souls.

However, should one want to KNOW that they have responded to the gospel in the fullness of the faith they do well to obey Acts 2:38. Then there can be no doubt.

[gloryseeker]

The gospel is the life, death, and resurrection of Christ to atone for mankind's sin.

Actually that is not correct. To atone is to cover. If Jesus' blood only covered our sins then it would be no better than the blood of bulls and goats. The correct word would be "remit." There is only one scripture in the NT where atone is used - Romans 5:11 - the original Greek word that is used in all other scriptures is translated at either "reconcile" or "reconciliation"


The proper response to that gospel is repentance, water baptism in Jesus name, and receiving the promise of the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

Agree

To some degree sins are forgiven at Repentance or one couldn't receive the Holy Ghost prior to baptism.

Impossible and also true. The true part is that people do received the Holy Ghost prior to baptism the impossible part is the "some degree." You are either forgiven or you are not.

People who have been hurt will say things like, "I've forgiven them, but I don't want to have anything to do with them." They deceive themselves. When one is forgiven they have been "reconciled" back to the place where they can do the exact same thing they did before.

Have you even sinned the same sin more than once? Obviously yes. Did God forgive you when you repented. Obviously yes. Did He hold you at arms length? NO! He let you come near Him again all the while knowing you were going to do the exact same thing to Him again.

God forgives and when you are forgiven you are forgiven.


Ultimately I believe we do well to allow God alone to be the judge of men's souls.

Absolutely and AMEN! I wish people would stop trying to figure out if a person is truly born again when for most their traditions have made the Word of God of no effect.

[ChristopherHall]

Actually that is not correct. To atone is to cover. If Jesus' blood only covered our sins then it would be no better than the blood of bulls and goats. The correct word would be "remit." There is only one scripture in the NT where atone is used - Romans 5:11 - the original Greek word that is used in all other scriptures is translated at either "reconcile" or "reconciliation"

Good point. I see what you're saying here and I agree. Thanks.

Impossible and also true. The true part is that people do received the Holy Ghost prior to baptism the impossible part is the "some degree." You are either forgiven or you are not.

I disagree. There are two issues before God...our sins committed and our sin nature. I once had an elder present to me that in repentance God forgives us of our individual sins. At this point we may receive the Holy Ghost but our sin nature must be buried. Then when we obey and are water baptized in Jesus name, thereby burying the Old Man and the sin nature in it's entirety in Christ. We are then risen as new creatures. I don't know if I fully agree with this but this may clarify what I was considering when I wrote what I did above.

Absolutely and AMEN! I wish people would stop trying to figure out if a person is truly born again when for most their traditions have made the Word of God of no effect.

Very true.

[gloryseeker]

I disagree. There are two issues before God...our sins committed and our sin nature. I once had an elder present to me that in repentance God forgives us of our individual sins. At this point we may receive the Holy Ghost but our sin nature must be buried. Then when we obey and are water baptized in Jesus name, thereby burying the Old Man and the sin nature in it's entirety in Christ. We are then risen as new creatures. I don't know if I fully agree with this but this may clarify what I was considering when I wrote what I did above.

Actually you agree with me because this is my point exactly.

Let me make an example:

An man comes to church and wants to get saved. He has "sin" in his life. These "sins" are "acts of disobedience." Let's say that one of these sins was that this man committed adultery with a prostitute.

There are two aspects of this sin. The actual act of adultery, but there is a deeper question, "Why did he do it?" There is something in his life that causes him to do this act.

At church right now wanting to get saved he is not with a prostitute, he is not sinning and he asks the Lord to forgive him of all his sin. God is faithful and this man now stands as though he has never been with a prostitute before.

But, what caused him to commit these sins, the old man, is still resident. This is where baptism comes in. It is the burying of the old man, the carnal nature that would cause a man to leave his wife and go to a prostitute.

The power of baptism is that if the man will believe (where faith comes in) that the old man is dead and buried he can now live free from the power that once controlled him. This is where the power of the Holy Spirit comes into play.

Most Christians just got wet, because their baptism was not an act of faith and/or they don't understand what they are doing. They have just been told "you're not saved unless you get baptized in Jesus Name" so they, in a desire to be saved say, "Yes! You can get dunk me."

It's a powerful thing, but people should know why and what is being done.

[Brother Price]

Those of us who believe in salvation at repentance in no means deny the necessity of water baptism. However, to say that our sins are remitted at water baptism and not in faith is an error in my book.

Baptism in Jesus name is necessary as a witness to what Christ has already done. It is not to take part of what He's done, but as a witness that we have partaken in His work at Calvary. It is essential for our life in Christ, and fulfills all righteousness. But, one is saved at faith.

[Jack Shephard]

Those of us who believe in salvation at repentance in no means deny the necessity of water baptism. However, to say that our sins are remitted at water baptism and not in faith is an error in my book.

Baptism in Jesus name is necessary as a witness to what Christ has already done. It is not to take part of what He's done, but as a witness that we have partaken in His work at Calvary. It is essential for our life in Christ, and fulfills all righteousness. But, one is saved at faith.

Well said BP. In Acts it says that we will be 'witnesses'. I heard T.D. Jakes preach about the tongues of the HG while they have different meaning and 'jobs' that part of it is to serve as part of the witness to the unbeliever. Sounds good to me.

[gloryseeker]

Those of us who believe in salvation at repentance in no means deny the necessity of water baptism. However, to say that our sins are remitted at water baptism and not in faith is an error in my book.

Baptism in Jesus name is necessary as a witness to what Christ has already done. It is not to take part of what He's done, but as a witness that we have partaken in His work at Calvary. It is essential for our life in Christ, and fulfills all righteousness. But, one is saved at faith.

I agree with your post for the most part. As in my reply to Christopher Hall when one repents there is a work of the Spirit that takes place. That act of asking the Savior to forgive them and receiving Jesus as Lord is a powerful act of faith.

There are too many deathbed salvations to think that one is not saved by faith.

I personally know a man whose father-n-law was a first class heathen. He tried to get him to accept the Lord many times, but wouldn't have anything to do with "religion."

The man I know was called as his father-n-law was on his death bed and they didn't expect him to last much longer. He and the daughter immediately drove to the place where he was. This man had been in a comatose state for several hours and when my friend walk in he sat up straight in his bed and said, "I know you" and laid back down.

My friend went over to him and this old man said, "they're coming, they're coming and I don't want to go -- their bad"

He became coherent once again and my friend in one last attempt spoke to Him about Jesus. This man said, "I want Jesus." He simply asked the Lord to forgive him and save him. A few minutes later he started slipping out again and he said, "They're coming and they're nice this nice time -- I want to go" and he died.

Salvation comes through faith! But, to make lightly of baptism is equally as wrong. It is FAR more than just something people do. You summed it up when you said, "It is essential for our life in Christ". That old carnal man has to be buried in order for the new man to function properly.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Jesus said it (baptism) fulfills all righteousness. Peter taught that it was the answer of a person's good conscience towards God. If one believes, they will obey. But I don't think it is actually taught in the Apostolic churches I have attended that a person is saved by faith, upon the confession of said faith. Usually, salvation is presented in a way where one is commanded to repent, be baptized and get filled with the Holy Ghost (with proof by speaking in tongues) before one can consider themselves saved.

So I tell the folks I witness to, "If you believe you will repent of your sins, turn away from them."
"If you believe, then you will be baptized in Jesus name as the scriptures demonstrate."

But the infilling of the Holy Ghost with proof by speaking in tongues, it's hard to make that argument in a convincing way because I am often greeted with the question, "Are you telling me I'm not saved until I speak in tongues? Show me in the Bible that I have to speak in tongues to be saved. Show me where I have to prove I am saved by speaking in tongues." I have had variations of these statements said to me many, many times.

Right now, I don't have an adequate response to that. I can show them the connection between repentance, obedience, salvation and baptism in a very clear way. But when people ask, "Show me where I have to speak in tongues" before it happens to them, then I usually end up walking away and agreeing to disagree with another Christian who is "already saved." Does any one know what I mean?

[Sam]

... At this point we may receive the Holy Ghost but our sin nature must be buried. Then when we obey and are water baptized in Jesus name, thereby burying the Old Man and the sin nature in it's entirety in Christ. ...

shouldn't the "old man" be dead before we bury him?

[ChristopherHall]

shouldn't the "old man" be dead before we bury him?

Of course. But the dead should be buried.

[gloryseeker]

shouldn't the "old man" be dead before we bury him?

I disagree, we are to live a crucified life, which means that we are continually keep the flesh crucified, or keeping him buried.

In reality, he's buried alive and given the chase will resurrect if you will let him. This is why people still struggle with anger, with sins, with offenses and why people backslide.

[ApostolicTexas]

Jesus said it (baptism) fulfills all righteousness. Peter taught that it was the answer of a person's good conscience towards God. If one believes, they will obey. But I don't think it is actually taught in the Apostolic churches I have attended that a person is saved by faith, upon the confession of said faith. Usually, salvation is presented in a way where one is commanded to repent, be baptized and get filled with the Holy Ghost (with proof by speaking in tongues) before one can consider themselves saved.

So I tell the folks I witness to, "If you believe you will repent of your sins, turn away from them."
"If you believe, then you will be baptized in Jesus name as the scriptures demonstrate."

But the infilling of the Holy Ghost with proof by speaking in tongues, it's hard to make that argument in a convincing way because I am often greeted with the question, "Are you telling me I'm not saved until I speak in tongues? Show me in the Bible that I have to speak in tongues to be saved. Show me where I have to prove I am saved by speaking in tongues." I have had variations of these statements said to me many, many times.

Right now, I don't have an adequate response to that. I can show them the connection between repentance, obedience, salvation and baptism in a very clear way. But when people ask, "Show me where I have to speak in tongues" before it happens to them, then I usually end up walking away and agreeing to disagree with another Christian who is "already saved." Does any one know what I mean?


I know exactly what you mean..HOWEVER..we do not have to duck and run..We are told without the Spirit of Christ..we are none of his!..Acts 8 tells us the story of the Samaritans and how they believed,they were water bapitzed but did not have the Holy Ghost!..how did they know?

How did Peter know Corneilus recieved the Holy Ghost?


Jesus speaking to his disciples in John 14:17



Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Notice the Spirit of truth was dwelling with these believers..Notice Jesus told them that the Spirit shall be IN YOU..although they were believers in Christ they DID NOT have the Holy Ghost prior to Pentecost!..Do you recall where Jesus sent his disciples out to preach the Gospel,heal the sick and cast out devils? This was before Pentecost also..He was WITH them but he was not IN them...God is WITH many people today but this does not mean He is IN them!..You have to recieve the Holy Ghost and the evidence we have that people did recieve the Holy Ghost was they spoke in tongues!! You do not have to speak in tongues..YOU GET TOO!!!!!!!!!!

[TRFrance]

The key to salvation is repentance. True, honest to God repentance. I know folks who have been water baptized in Jesus name and filled with the Holy Ghost (it's a promise that can be received in faith). However, they are unrepentant. They will find themselves lost in the judgment.


So you're saying someone can receive the Holy Ghost by faith, even though they haven't repented.

(To me, the idea that God will give His spirit to someone who hasnt repented is unbiblical. If the key to salvation is repentance, and the bible says God gives his spirit to those who obey Him, it is contradictory against scripture to say that God would give his spirit to someone who hasn't obeyed the first requirement of salvation, which is repentance.)

If God doesn't remit sin at repentance...how did I receive the Holy Ghost well before I was water Baptized? Surely you're not going to tell me that I was a filthy, unforgiven, sinner who received the HOLY Ghost. The Holy Ghost will not dwell in an unclean temple. After I repented...I was clean and forgiven.

If the Holy Ghost will not dwell in an unclean temple, as you say, why did you say (previous post, above) that a person who is unrepentant can receive the Holy Ghost.

Seems like a big contradiction there. You might wanna take a closer look at that.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Thank you for your thought out response. My "responses" run throughout your text.

you said:
I know exactly what you mean..HOWEVER..we do not have to duck and run..We are told without the Spirit of Christ..we are none of his!..

my response: the Spirit of the Lord drew me to repentance and now I am saved upon the confession of my faith in Jesus Christ. If I didn't have His Spirit in my life, then I would have never repented in the first place. (So many people believe like this-- how do we get them to seek more of the Lord, if for the sake of their own salvation?)



you said:
Acts 8 tells us the story of the Samaritans and how they believed,they were water bapitzed but did not have the Holy Ghost!..how did they know?

my response: We are taught to believe that they knew they had received the Holy Ghost, because they spoke in tongues. But the Bible does not say that here, although implies something happened.
But this wouldn't persuade a person to seek the infilling of the Holy Ghost for the sake of their own SALVATION if they already believe they don't have to experience this for salvation, especially since the eunuch is also mentioned in this chapter. Was the eunuch saved or unsaved when Philip was taken away from him?



you said:
How did Peter know Corneilus recieved the Holy Ghost?

my response: Cornelius spoke in tongues as the Spirit inspired him. But this was not of his own "doing". Cornelius sent for Peter so he could tell him what to do. Peter told him to get baptized, and he did (note: the one who responded like this to me did not believe that baptism was necessary, not even for the sake of obedience, and did not believe baptism should be done in the name of Jesus).



you said:
Jesus speaking to his disciples in John 14:17

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Notice the Spirit of truth was dwelling with these believers..Notice Jesus told them that the Spirit shall be IN YOU..although they were believers in Christ they DID NOT have the Holy Ghost prior to Pentecost!..Do you recall where Jesus sent his disciples out to preach the Gospel,heal the sick and cast out devils? This was before Pentecost also..He was WITH them but he was not IN them...God is WITH many people today but this does not mean He is IN them!..

my response: So I can use this illustration to show that a person may have a relationship with God, but not necessarily filled with the Holy Ghost. I have never seen this scripture like that before and will share it. POWERFUL TRUTH! But again, how do I make the connection between the Spirit in filling and speaking in tongues, if a person believes they are saved upon their confession of faith and specifically without having to speak in tongues?



you said:
You have to recieve the Holy Ghost and the evidence we have that people did receive the Holy Ghost was they spoke in tongues!!

my response: why would I need to show you evidence, the Bible doesn't say I have to show you evidence by speaking in tongues. So if I never speak in tongues, you're saying I'm not saved?
(Again, I did not have an adequate response for this question.) My own question: Isn't the Holy Ghost a promise and not a command?



you said:
You do not have to speak in tongues..YOU GET TOO!!!!!!!!!!

my response: I actually have said that before but won't now once a Baptist guy told me that I "playing with his intelligence" in using such a play on words.


This was not done in a combative way, just displaying some of the responses I have received and some of the thoughts/doubts I have had while trying to share the gospel with others. I am grateful for this forum and your time.

[ApostolicTexas]

Thank you for your thought out response. My "responses" run throughout your text.

you said:


my response: I actually have said that before but won't now once a Baptist guy told me that I "playing with his intelligence" in using such a play on words.


This was not done in a combative way, just displaying some of the responses I have received and some of the thoughts/doubts I have had while trying to share the gospel with others. I am grateful for this forum and your time.


you will find no where in the scripture that says a person MUST speak in tongues to be saved.But what you will find in scripture is when people DID recieve the Holy Ghost they DID speak in tongues..