Gimmicks, Programs and Performances

[Steadfast]

This was taken from a post by Carpenter on another thread but it stirred up something in me that I think should be seriously considered within the Apostolic movement:

Secondly, and I believe this is the biggest obstacle to fulfilling a true anointing, is the two-fold desire to develop new-fangled programs in which the preacher can take the credit for design. There have been minister after minister come through bringing their 12 Tribe concept of church growth, prayer seminars to enhance church growth and revival, the 12 step program for a closer walk with God, labeling revivals as "crusades" attaching their names to it, plays, poetry, costumes, army men a broken down volkswagon and the apocalypse, the grim reaper, lights camera ACTION! ...yada yada yada.

While the intentions may be fantastic, there is an element of self promotion involved that if it takes root, it means more dates for preaching, possibly a book, a CD, and money money money, name building, name building, LEGACY!


Why DO we rely on gimmicks and programs so much when it should be a natural heartbeat to do these things? Have we just become so performance oriented that we don't function outsideof set requirements of participation?

I think that sometimes programs are effective. Other times I think it's a hindrance to the spiritual disciplines that we should have as a natural part of our walk with God.

QUESTION: Why do we see programs as the answer?

[Carpenter]

This was taken from a post by Carpenter on another thread but it stirred up something in me that I think should be seriously considered within the Apostolic movement:




Why DO we rely on gimmicks and programs so much when it should be a natural heartbeat to do these things? Have we just become so performance oriented that we don't function outsideof set requirements of participation?

I think that sometimes programs are effective. Other times I think it's a hindrance to the spiritual disciplines that we should have as a natural part of our walk with God.

QUESTION: Why do we see programs as the answer?


Coming from a very large and prolific church in the UPC, I have seen just about every program, crusade, and special ministry come through. Interestingly enough churches invent quite a few of these internally.

I saw one form letter from a church and it laid out yet another comprehensive ministry program of "stuff."

I was astounded when I got to the bottom and read who it was from...the person organizing and spearheadding this program is the pastor's daughter who is now the "Pastor" of that ministry-program! I had to laugh. Pastor? Maybe anti-pastor is more appropriate.


Pastor...of a program?? :slaphappy

[Annie]

This was taken from a post by Carpenter on another thread but it stirred up something in me that I think should be seriously considered within the Apostolic movement:




Why DO we rely on gimmicks and programs so much when it should be a natural heartbeat to do these things? Have we just become so performance oriented that we don't function outsideof set requirements of participation?

I think that sometimes programs are effective. Other times I think it's a hindrance to the spiritual disciplines that we should have as a natural part of our walk with God.

QUESTION: Why do we see programs as the answer?


I know of a church that spent 40,000.00 on a man to teach them how to 'Develop the Leaders Within You"...it's been four years, and the whole program was rendered useless, as nothing was 'followed through' with. Appparently the Pastor got tired of holding each of his leaders accountable for their 'role', as there are very few concepts still being used from this program.

Are we as the church, trying to mimic something that we see other secular churches using to 'grow' a church?

Prayer and fasting would still work today- if we would use them as the tools God has placed in our hands.

[Malvaro]

imo, corporate programs began to grow as individual outreach efforts began to decline and churches sought to find a "stop-gap" fix.... can one locate an instance where the early church had to rely on corporate outreachs? no....

we get our perfect vision for evangelism from Acts 20:20....

Acts 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house,

the Gospel was spread through the proclamation of Christ in public places (work/marketplaces/etc) and one-on-one in homes....

[Thad]

This was taken from a post by Carpenter on another thread but it stirred up something in me that I think should be seriously considered within the Apostolic movement:




Why DO we rely on gimmicks and programs so much when it should be a natural heartbeat to do these things? Have we just become so performance oriented that we don't function outsideof set requirements of participation?

I think that sometimes programs are effective. Other times I think it's a hindrance to the spiritual disciplines that we should have as a natural part of our walk with God.

QUESTION: Why do we see programs as the answer?


some cannot be satisfied with the anointing God gave them.

I know many will not admit it, but many Ideas have been studied and copied from the evangelicals and charismatics and then thrust upon our churches. i don't understand how we are so quick to condemn these people but turn around and impliment many of their programs , styles, Ideas , music, and on it goes

[rgcraig]

I was actually shocked to read a couple weeks ago many voicing their opinions about the "show" and "program" at GC on the platform (from UPC ministers).

Is it what most have come to expect?

[Annie]

some cannot be satisfied with the anointing God gave them.

I know many will not admit it, but many Ideas have been studied and copied from the evangelicals and charismatics and then thrust upon our churches. i don't understand how we are so quick to condemn these people but turn around and impliment many of their programs , styles, Ideas , music, and on it goes


I have said this sooo many times!!

I think I read somewhere that Jesus said, "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me..." !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Let's lift up JESUS, and watch HIM draw the masses...

[Carpenter]

I remember this guy years ago (if I said his name most of you would chuckle and say, yea, I know him...) came through like a storm and tried to instute his 12 tribe concept of cell groups and church growth.

For about a year or so we walked around like idiots asking..."Are you in the tribe of Isichar?" or "What tribe are you in, or who is your tribe leader?" I just loved seeing the horrified looks on the faces of our visitors! :slaphappy

[Pastor Keith]

This was taken from a post by Carpenter on another thread but it stirred up something in me that I think should be seriously considered within the Apostolic movement:




Why DO we rely on gimmicks and programs so much when it should be a natural heartbeat to do these things? Have we just become so performance oriented that we don't function outsideof set requirements of participation?

I think that sometimes programs are effective. Other times I think it's a hindrance to the spiritual disciplines that we should have as a natural part of our walk with God.

QUESTION: Why do we see programs as the answer?


Let me say from the onset, I have tremendous respect for Rick Warren and his gifts of leadership and his demonstrative skills. But even now the whole purpose driven church program has gone by the wayside. Reading in Christianity Today last week they detailed how that it is pretty much a dead program.

So with that in mind, there will be a shift of prophetic driven organic church that very much mirror the normal church structure and functions of the Book of Acts church.

The bar on how we do church will be lowered, but the requirements of those involved will be quite high.

The current program, professional driven church that meets in special buildings will be replaced. Why? because it produces basically good church members but lacks in producing quality disciples are trained and equipped to do the ministry of Jesus will be replaced. It has to, God won't tolerate it any longer!

[Kutless]

I don't know if this applies here, excuse my ignorance. But some people have specific talents.

Maybe someone could write a very effective drama or come up with a great idea to bring in people. Why not take advantage?

[Truthseeker]

I have said this sooo many times!!

I think I read somewhere that Jesus said, "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me..." !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Let's lift up JESUS, and watch HIM draw the masses...


that scripture about lifting up Jesus is about the cross not if we lift him up.

[Truthseeker]

The chuch has fads too.

[Annie]

that scripture about lifting up Jesus is about the cross not if we lift him up.

I am aware of that...However,
Let me tell ya something...when we begin to 'lift HIM up' through praise, and we begin to magnify HIM, instead of our own agendas- HE will draw the lost.

There ARE parallels in his word.

[Thad]

I have said this sooo many times!!

I think I read somewhere that Jesus said, "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me..." !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Let's lift up JESUS, and watch HIM draw the masses...

it's not that hard. Word , worship, fellowship and Prayer . really that is all most people want anyways


my father always told us, just keep it simple

[Malvaro]

I remember this guy years ago (if I said his name most of you would chuckle and say, yea, I know him...) came through like a storm and tried to instute his 12 tribe concept of cell groups and church growth.

For about a year or so we walked around like idiots asking..."Are you in the tribe of Isichar?" or "What tribe are you in, or who is your tribe leader?" I just loved seeing the horrified looks on the faces of our visitors! :slaphappy

what tribe am I from???? tell me, tell me.... pretty please.... :D

[Thad]

Let me say from the onset, I have tremendous respect for Rick Warren and his gifts of leadership and his demonstrative skills. But even now the whole purpose driven church program has gone by the wayside. Reading in Christianity Today last week they detailed how that it is pretty much a dead program.

So with that in mind, there will be a shift of prophetic driven organic church that very much mirror the normal church structure and functions of the Book of Acts church.

The bar on how we do church will be lowered, but the requirements of those involved will be quite high.

The current program, professional driven church that meets in special buildings will be replaced. Why? because it produces basically good church members but lacks in producing quality disciples are trained and equipped to do the ministry of Jesus will be replaced. It has to, God won't tolerate it any longer!

Keith

Is that article on their website?

could you elaborate on what they said about warran's program being dead ?

[Pastor Keith]

Keith

Is that article on their website?

could you elaborate on what they said about warran's program being dead ?

Here is the article:

Painful Decline
Saddleback Church assumes Purpose Driven, scales back programs.
Brad A. Greenberg | posted 11/21/2006 08:57AM


The Purpose Driven Life remains number two on the cba hardcover bestseller list. But Purpose Driven the organization is over. Created amid the unprecedented popularity of Rick Warren's book, Purpose Driven ministries has lost its CEO, seen its staff reduced by a third, and significantly drawn back its services. No longer a separate entity, it is being overseen by the staff of Saddleback Church, where Warren is senior pastor.

Related articles and links



"Purpose Driven as an organization, in a sense, really doesn't exist anymore," Jon Walker, Saddleback's pastor of strategic communications, told CT.

The most notable change will be to Purpose Driven Church conferences, which have trained more than 300,000 pastors in church growth. Saddleback will still host the annual conference at the Lake Forest, California, megachurch in May. But smaller conferences will be held less frequently. In addition, there will be no more nationwide 40 Days of Purpose campaigns, Walker said, though the program will be offered to churches individually.

Saddleback considers January 2005 to be the beginning of Purpose Driven, which grew as Warren's book sold millions upon millions of copies—25 million to date.

"The success of The Purpose Driven Life and 40 Days of Purpose was a God-sent wave for which we are grateful, and we tried to be good stewards of the blessing," Walker said. "However, it was inevitable that their popularity would crest and then settle into a long-term ministry of support."

Purpose Driven carried out the first round of layoffs in July, while Warren preached in 14 countries across Africa and Asia. Saddleback leadership had hoped the cuts would be enough. Warren and his wife, Kay, even donated $2 million to cover a deficit at Purpose Driven and hopefully save a few jobs.

But a second round of layoffs couldn't be avoided. From a peak of 160 employees, Purpose Driven laid off 30 staff members while another 24 positions were eliminated through attrition.

Saddleback plans to invest more resources in Warren's newest project, his global P.E.A.C.E. plan: planting churches, equipping leaders, assisting the poor, caring for the sick, and educating the next generation. Saddleback leaders hope P.E.A.C.E. can achieve Purpose Driven levels of popularity without the bust.

"It's two very different things," Walker said. "Purpose Driven was training for church growth. … P.E.A.C.E is more of a long-term missions thrust. There is not a product or a trend or anything that is associated with it. It is a long-term thing."

[Felicity]

Be careful to not get caught up in "the latest thing". If you do you'll be all over the map and stability will be lost.

The church needs to stay middle of the road on a straight course not getting caught up in fads and programs and the latest "moves" of God's spirit (so called).

IMO

[Truthseeker]

I am aware of that...However,
Let me tell ya something...when we begin to 'lift HIM up' through praise, and we begin to magnify HIM, instead of our own agendas- HE will draw the lost.

There ARE parallels in his word.


Gotcha, just a misapplication of that scripture when we apply it to such.

[Rhymis]

Another frog's essay on igloos. :bliss

[Ron]

Programs in and of themselves are just a means to an end.

Sadly, the Church a lot of times has made them an end in and of themselves.

[Carpenter]

what tribe am I from???? tell me, tell me.... pretty please.... :D

I dunno, the church divided itself up based on who lived in what part of the city. I think we were the tribe of Levi...closest to the church. :D

I think the tribe of Zebulon was way out in Aurora! :slaphappy

[Thad]

Here is the article:

Painful Decline
Saddleback Church assumes Purpose Driven, scales back programs.
Brad A. Greenberg | posted 11/21/2006 08:57AM


The Purpose Driven Life remains number two on the cba hardcover bestseller list. But Purpose Driven the organization is over. Created amid the unprecedented popularity of Rick Warren's book, Purpose Driven ministries has lost its CEO, seen its staff reduced by a third, and significantly drawn back its services. No longer a separate entity, it is being overseen by the staff of Saddleback Church, where Warren is senior pastor.

Related articles and links



"Purpose Driven as an organization, in a sense, really doesn't exist anymore," Jon Walker, Saddleback's pastor of strategic communications, told CT.

The most notable change will be to Purpose Driven Church conferences, which have trained more than 300,000 pastors in church growth. Saddleback will still host the annual conference at the Lake Forest, California, megachurch in May. But smaller conferences will be held less frequently. In addition, there will be no more nationwide 40 Days of Purpose campaigns, Walker said, though the program will be offered to churches individually.

Saddleback considers January 2005 to be the beginning of Purpose Driven, which grew as Warren's book sold millions upon millions of copies—25 million to date.

"The success of The Purpose Driven Life and 40 Days of Purpose was a God-sent wave for which we are grateful, and we tried to be good stewards of the blessing," Walker said. "However, it was inevitable that their popularity would crest and then settle into a long-term ministry of support."

Purpose Driven carried out the first round of layoffs in July, while Warren preached in 14 countries across Africa and Asia. Saddleback leadership had hoped the cuts would be enough. Warren and his wife, Kay, even donated $2 million to cover a deficit at Purpose Driven and hopefully save a few jobs.

But a second round of layoffs couldn't be avoided. From a peak of 160 employees, Purpose Driven laid off 30 staff members while another 24 positions were eliminated through attrition.

Saddleback plans to invest more resources in Warren's newest project, his global P.E.A.C.E. plan: planting churches, equipping leaders, assisting the poor, caring for the sick, and educating the next generation. Saddleback leaders hope P.E.A.C.E. can achieve Purpose Driven levels of popularity without the bust.

"It's two very different things," Walker said. "Purpose Driven was training for church growth. … P.E.A.C.E is more of a long-term missions thrust. There is not a product or a trend or anything that is associated with it. It is a long-term thing."


Thanks Keith

some may not believe it but they would be surprised the UPC pastors who were flocking to this conference. I know a conservative from CA. who went and tried to impliment some of this stuff in his church. that's why I asked earlier why so many are condemning Yet run after these trends.

anyhow, personally, I'm kind of glad it's dying out. I've even noticed that Jakes is scaling back his conferneces too have you ?

[Steadfast]

...corporate programs began to grow as individual outreach efforts began to decline and churches sought to find a "stop-gap" fix.... can one locate an instance where the early church had to rely on corporate outreachs? no....

Great comment here... amazing, in fact.

[Steadfast]

some cannot be satisfied with the anointing God gave them.

I know many will not admit it, but many Ideas have been studied and copied from the evangelicals and charismatics and then thrust upon our churches. i don't understand how we are so quick to condemn these people but turn around and impliment many of their programs , styles, Ideas , music, and on it goes

Another valid question, in my opinion.

[Pastor Keith]

Another valid question, in my opinion.

Lets lower the bar on how we do church, and raise the call to discipleship and be a follower of Jesus Christ.

[Thad]

Another valid question, in my opinion.


thanks steadfast.

as i said, several in CA. have attended Rick W's conference and impimented his programs

[Steadfast]

I don't know if this applies here, excuse my ignorance. But some people have specific talents.

Maybe someone could write a very effective drama or come up with a great idea to bring in people. Why not take advantage?

I find absolutely nothing wrong with what you say. In fact, I think some programs and gimmicks can be beneficial. What troubles me is when we foolishly think that these programs can compensate for a lack of Apostolic vision and true spiritual sensitivity.

[Steadfast]

Lets lower the bar on how we do church, and raise the call to discipleship and be a follower of Jesus Christ.

As I said earlier, I'm not against programs, gimmicks and such. My concern, as it sounds like yours is, may be summarized as follows: Why do we need programs to incite us to do what a real relationship with God should do on it's own?

I do think there are some that like the 'time constraints' of programs so that their reponsibility doesn't infringe on their time as much as an evangelistic lifestyle would. Others need to 'finish' the program to feel like they have paid their dues.

Some probably aren't as diabolically driven... they just don't feel a need until a program is put before them.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

thanks steadfast.

as i said, several in CA. have attended Rick W's conference and impimented his programs

Now this is Funny- We are struggling trying to enforce programs that others have now abandoned!

What happenned to old fashioned week long prayer meetings with fasting?

What happenned to door knocking for small churches?

Oh yeah, they involve work.

[mizpeh]

Be careful to not get caught up in "the latest thing". If you do you'll be all over the map and stability will be lost.

The church needs to stay middle of the road on a straight course not getting caught up in fads and programs and the latest "moves" of God's spirit (so called).

IMO

Felicity, Do you read from the book of Proverbs everyday?:thumbsup

[Steve Epley]

The ark never belonged on a Philistine cart it always causes death. After David sought after the 'due order' he was blessed. God only sanctions what he has authorized.

[Ron]

The ark never belonged on a Philistine cart it always causes death. After David sought after the 'due order' he was blessed. God only sanctions what he has authorized.

HMMM, Interesting thought Elder.:hmmm

[Carpenter]

Now this is Funny- We are struggling trying to enforce programs that others have now abandoned!

What happenned to old fashioned week long prayer meetings with fasting?

What happenned to door knocking for small churches?

Oh yeah, they involve work.

Door knocking is one of the least effective means of evangelism...


just thought you would like to know that.

Actually I think the use of Television and door knocking have pretty much the same effect...think vinyl siding, triple pane window and vacuum cleaner sales.

[Steadfast]

Door knocking is one of the least effective means of evangelism...


just thought you would like to know that.

Actually I think the use of Television and door knocking have pretty much the same effect...think vinyl siding, triple pane window and vacuum cleaner sales.

:killinme

[Steadfast]

The ark never belonged on a Philistine cart it always causes death. After David sought after the 'due order' he was blessed. God only sanctions what he has authorized.

I'm on your side, Elder!

:highfive