CeCe Winans under fire for singing at Gay church

[SecretWarrior]

CeCe Winans under fire for singing at Gay church"



Atlanta - Despite a plea from Witness Ministries Executive Director and other former homosexuals, gospel music star CeCe Winans elected to hold her "Throne Room" concert at a homosexual affirming church in metropolitan Atlanta.

Winans' tour date will bring her to Victory Church on March 26 where she is scheduled to perform, then hold a "VIP Reception" following.

Despite attempts to personally speak with Ms Winans about the pastor and church's very public attempts to normalize homosexuality in the Christian community, Winans released a statement via her website in which she stated she would not "back down to the enemy, in any way."

Pastor Darryl Foster, who initiated the alert for other Christians to contact Winans about the church, said, "We are deeply disappointed CeCe has chosen to appear at Victory Church without appropriately addressing the serious situation there. She is, however responsible for her own decisions, and we respect that."

Pastor Foster made pleas to the Winans tour asking them to cancel the appearance out of respect to the Biblical admontions which forbid fellowship with other Christians who promote false doctrine.

"CeCe is mistaken when she says she is going to minister at Victory Church. How do you "minister" to apostate Christians when the Bible says do not keep company with them?, said Foster.

Foster believes Victory and other homosexual affirming black churches intentionally conceal their false doctrines and policies in order to deceive and attract artists like Winans whose appearances lend credibility to wayward churches.

"Victory Church is not the 'world' as Winan's statement claims. They are Christians in open rebellion to the Word of God and its moral standards. If this were a group of sinners, I would be the first to applaud her going, but the Bible strongly warns against what Winans is doing .


"If CeCe were a pastor or preacher, she would have never gotten an invitation to speak at Victory Church. Kenneth Samuels has closed ears to the true gospel, but will quickly invite a singer who may not necessarily have any convicting message in their songs. This is just another example of how some Christians are ditching the Bible's fresh relevance and authority when it comes to dealing with contemporary issues," said Foster.

"And I'm not so sure that music ministry is what God has ordained to save and deliver. In Romans 10:14-15, it clearly tells us that it is the preaching of the gospel, not singing which brings one to saving faith to God. Perhaps that is why we are seeing so much compromise and weakness among new believers. How can they hear without a preacher and how can he preach except he be sent?"

The trend of engaging those in music ministry is a developing tactic employed particularly by homosexual churches. Many hold in open contempt any traditional teachings of sexual morality. Recently, a website was launched attacking black pastors who preach against homosexuality. Many Christian leaders and popular singers are simply unaware that they are being used in a intentional effort to inject heavy doses of false doctrine into the church. Too many churches have embraced the worldly "virtue" of tolerance at the expense of truth. Tolerance is nothing more than false love offered by satan to divert Christians from speaking the truth in love as the Bible commands.

"Perhaps CeCe is not aware but we are in a season of unprecedented attack on the church. And unfortunately, the ones leading it are religious homosexuals who operate under a spirit of revenge and anger. The true test of her "ministry" at Victory Church will be if she will evoke what the Bible says about homosexuality --before she sings.

Witness encourages CeCe to "not back down" by:

Expressing to the pastor her beliefs and hold the pastor accountable for false doctrine he promotes.

Call for unrepentant homosexuals in leadership to repent and submit their lives to Christ.

Not to Mention that many homosexuals have been set free and delivered from that sin.


Winan's company asserted that they checked Victory's website before they accepted the invitation about a month ago. But even at that time a company official said that they had received concerns about the church's homosexual affirming policies. This caused them to make calls to certain ministers in Atlanta who could allegedly only confirm the rumors.


here is the link to the story:
http://www.witnessfortheworld.org/pr031704.html

[Weary Pilgrim]

Isn't CeCe Winans and Sandra friends ?

She was recently at Steve and Becky Fender's church. I hear great things about her so I'm surprised that she would associate herself with a church like this. It's likey to hurt her good reputation.

[Sandra]

Cece Winans is a woman of integrity and 100% against homosexuality. She stated that she would like for us to do a tour together. I would be proud to travel with her, she loves God and stands up for him in secular settings.

[Mrs. LPW]

...not "back down to the enemy, in any way."



Who is the enemy referred to?

[Weary Pilgrim]

Cece Winans is a woman of integrity and 100% against homosexuality. She stated that she would like for us to do a tour together. I would be proud to travel with her, she loves God and stands up for him in secular settings.


Then ask her why she is singing at a church that affirms this lifestyle.

[PastorD]

I was with CeCe just a few days ago.....sat with her, ate with her, prayed with her. Wow, she has an awesome anointing on her life.

When she sings Alabaster Box.....it is over!

[rgcraig]

Then ask her why she is singing at a church that affirms this lifestyle

You know, this is just a dumb question if you think about it.

How do you reach the lost?

[Mrs. LPW]

You know, this is just a dumb question if you think about it.

How do you reach the lost?

I know these people are lost.. but they don't think they are. And they aren't just your average sinner either. They call darkness light... it's a dangerous place.
There are thousands upon thousands of "Christians" who don't believe God would put anyone in hell.. and many more who don't think God would put someone in hell because of their feelings. Oprah sings this from the mountain tops...

This is a dangerous place for CeCe to walk.

[chosenbyone]

CeCe is a Holy Ghost filled woman and who are we to question where the Lord would have her minister? Remember, homosexuality is NOT the main issue! Often, the life of the homosexual is filled with a lot of brokenness, shame by those in the church, being rejected over and over and over; one who often doesn't measure up to everyone else; one who is is either frustrated because he/she doesnt like the fact that they are attracted to the same sex or; one who embraces the attraction and searches for Mr. or Mrs. Right, (of the same sex) and is let down time and time again, feeling more rejection, abuse and loneliness. They are really in search of LOVE - in the true sense!

Are we not compelled as Christians to accept them, embrace them and not be afraid to come alongside and help them figure life out? Too often, the church looks at the outside of the person with disgust and they dont take time to look at the heart and show them the love of Christ!

I fear that many will have to give an account to God one day because of the way they treat his children.

[chosenbyone]

I know these people are lost.. but they don't think they are. And they aren't just your average sinner either. They call darkness light... it's a dangerous place.
There are thousands upon thousands of "Christians" who don't believe God would put anyone in hell.. and many more who don't think God would put someone in hell because of their feelings. Oprah sings this from the mountain tops...

This is a dangerous place for CeCe to walk.

Would you agree that it would be worth CeCe to walk in a dangerous place if one could be saved from damnation? There is no way that you or I could know why this door has been opened for her to go and sing. How could we make such a judgement call of the leading of the Lord?

[Weary Pilgrim]

You know, this is just a dumb question if you think about it.

How do you reach the lost?



If the word is not convicting them,what makes you think CeCe's singing will?

If you think that her holding a concert at a gay affirming church is going to turn their thinking around you are wrong

[Ron]

If the word is not convicting them,what makes you think CeCe's singing will?

If you think that her holding a concert at a gay affirming church is going to turn their thinking around you are wrong


I would tend to agree!

[Sherri]

I guess I understand what she's trying to do, but it seems that they would take this as an endorsement of what they are doing/living. I cannot see her agreeing with their lifestyle, but I've been shocked before!

[ReformedDave]

She's going to perform in a building that is called a 'church' and supposedly is to be used to worship God. By appearing there she is 'affirming' their position whether she wants to or not. Is she going to present the bad news of their lifestyle and the good news that God can save and change their orientation? I'd really be surprised if she does.

This is the extreme opposite of Fred Phelps.....and just as dangerous.

[Mrs. LPW]

Would you agree that it would be worth CeCe to walk in a dangerous place if one could be saved from damnation?

Indeed... I hope this happens. I won't say it can't but the liklihood is slim. These are not just any sinners. These are people who preach God accepts the sin... that it is not a sin at all.

We are living in a world where some sin has been widely accepted.. and because of this there are those of Christian "faith" who have been conditioned to believe the same as the world. We're all afraid of being called biggots or labled intolerant for our stance. We're bombarded daily by these thoughts...
How can love be wrong?

If this were a church who believed you can be a Christian and murder, or lie, we wouldn't be having this conversation. We'd all be on the same page.

[TRFrance]

You know, this is just a dumb question if you think about it.

How do you reach the lost?

A dumb question? Please!

There's a BIG difference between singing to mere unbelievers, to expose them to the word... and singing to unrepentant homosexual "Christians". These people have rejected the clear biblical teaching regarding homosexuality, and her presence there only serves to legitimize and show approval of their error.

[TRFrance]

Would you agree that it would be worth CeCe to walk in a dangerous place if one could be saved from damnation? There is no way that you or I could know why this door has been opened for her to go and sing. How could we make such a judgement call of the leading of the Lord?

You talk about "the leading of the Lord"?
Good grief... Don't all purveyors of false doctrine tell you they feel "the Lord has led them" into whatever false doctrine they now advocate?

CeCe Winans is seriously in error here.

[MikeinAR]

A dumb question? Please!

There's a BIG difference between singing to mere unbelievers, to expose them to the word... and singing to unrepentant homosexual "Christians". These people have rejected the clear biblical teaching regarding homosexuality, and her presence there only serves to legitimize and show approval of their error.

Exactly right TR. How can the sin of homosexuality be repented of in a church with affirms the lifestyle?

I believe that the pentecostal church as a whole must do more to reach homosexuals. We need to develop ministries that reach into that darkness and pull lost, dying people in to the true love of Christ they're searching for. Affirming and sanctioning sin is not a part of God's will to reach the lost.

[Rhoni]

You know, this is just a dumb question if you think about it.

How do you reach the lost?

I agree with you Renda...BTW wasn't Jesus often criticized by the Pharisees for associating and eating with publicans and sinners?:girlytantrum

[rgcraig]

I was trying to stir the pot and get some conversation going.....seems to have worked!

[Rhoni]

I was trying to stir the pot and get some conversation going.....seems to have worked!

You need a raise woman! :)

[Ron]

I agree with you Renda...BTW wasn't Jesus often criticized by the Pharisees for associating and eating with publicans and sinners?:girlytantrum


Eating with theme is one thing Rhoni, I have no problem with that.

I just would never see him going to the Queer Church!

[TRFrance]

You know, this is just a dumb question if you think about it.
How do you reach the lost?
I agree with you Renda...BTW wasn't Jesus often criticized by the Pharisees for associating and eating with publicans and sinners?:girlytantrum
I was trying to stir the pot and get some conversation going.....seems to have worked!

Rhoni...Renda might have said it just to "stir" the pot, but apparently you seriously seem to think there's nothing wrong with what Cece Winans is doing.

You may be offended by me saying this, but I'll just speak frankly here...
If you don't see the HUGE spiritual distinction between Jesus' eating with sinners...versus a singer "ministering" in a Queer Church, then I have to seriously question your judgment.

[Rhoni]

Rhoni...Renda might have said it just to "stir" the pot, but apparently you seriously seem to think there's nothing wrong with what Cece Winans is doing.

You may be offended by me saying this, but I'll just speak frankly here...
If you don't see the HUGE spiritual distinction between Jesus' eating with sinners...versus a singer "ministering" in a Queer Church, then I have to seriously question your judgment.


Jesus came not to call the righteous, but the sinners to repentance. I think it is a sin for Apostolics to only eat, fellowship and minister to Apostolics.

You guys don't read the same Bible I do.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Mrs. LPW]

Indeed... I hope this happens. I won't say it can't but the liklihood is slim. These are not just any sinners. These are people who preach God accepts the sin... that it is not a sin at all.

We are living in a world where some sin has been widely accepted.. and because of this there are those of Christian "faith" who have been conditioned to believe the same as the world. We're all afraid of being called biggots or labled intolerant for our stance. We're bombarded daily by these thoughts...
How can love be wrong?

If this were a church who believed you can be a Christian and murder, or lie, we wouldn't be having this conversation. We'd all be on the same page.



I agree with you Renda...BTW wasn't Jesus often criticized by the Pharisees for associating and eating with publicans and sinners?:girlytantrum

Of course he was... but he wasn't eating with Pharisees was he? They were the religious yet misguided of the day.

I agree we must do more... this isn't something I would consider though. I'm sure she'll take flak from people who's opinion she actually cares about... so my opinion doesn't really matter. I don't think her singing there is a good idea nonetheless.

[Rhoni]

Eating with theme is one thing Rhoni, I have no problem with that.

I just would never see him going to the Queer Church!


No, Jesus personally went , without a witness, to the Well to purposely meet with the Samaritan woman who was guilty of adultery! Boy, we could gossip about that a while.:girlytantrum

[simplyme]

Then ask her why she is singing at a church that affirms this lifestyle.

I 2nd that question, WHY??????
There is no logic to claim something then by actions, affirm the opposite., just as by going to 'minister' at a trinitarian church that doesn't believe in ONENESS is not something that one believing IN ONENESS would logically do., what integrity is in a statement that one is against salvation in "the titles" or "homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle" as our LORD speaks against in His WORD, then okay it by going along with those whom practice such? *shrug*

Simply baffled am I.
:D

[Mrs. LPW]

Jesus would definitely walk into that "Queer Church" (not my terminology.. not sure I like it) but he would preach repentance... there's no way He would walk in... teach something fluffy... sing something nice.. and walk back out.. never telling them point blank to come out of their sin and He would recieve them and help them through it.
He would tell them He loved them and He loved them enough to not leave them in sin.

I like CeCe... love her singing. But I doubt highly she'll be saying ANYTHING to rock that boat.

And with regards to the Samaritan woman.. Jesus told her to drink of the water that HE could give... he didn't leave her in sin.

[Rhoni]

I 2nd that question, WHY??????
Makes no sense to claim something then by actions, affirm the opposite.

I guess you wouldn't like the church I go to. We minister to and feed the homeless in a bar/tavern.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Rhoni]

Jesus would definitely walk into that "Queer Church" (not my terminology.. not sure I like it) but he would preach repentance... there's no way He would walk in... teach something fluffy... sing something nice.. and walk back out.. never telling them point blank to come out of their sin and He would recieve them and help them through it.
He would tell them He loved them and He loved them enough to not leave them in sin.

I like CeCe... love her singing. But I doubt highly she'll be saying ANYTHING to rock that boat.

And with regards to the Samaritan woman.. Jesus told her to drink of the water that HE could give... he didn't leave her in sin.

One plants, another waters, but GOD gives the increase. God left the woman of Samaria with the choice.

Hum...what a thought.

[Rhoni]

Of course he was... but he wasn't eating with Pharisees was he? They were the religious yet misguided of the day.


Kind of reminds me of some people I know.

Blessings, Rhoni

[simplyme]

I guess you wouldn't like the church I go to. We minister to and feed the homeless in a bar/tavern.

Blessings, Rhoni

What are homeless doing in a bar? i would assume one goes to a bar to drink, and if one drinks ones money and thus is homeless, I do see that they are in dire need of the savior to set them free .. of course.
I don't think that I or anyone I know in church would agree going to a bar would be a good idea though., but if you all want to then thats you alls decision I'm not going to say anything more negative about it, if it works for ya'll, great!

[Mrs. LPW]

Kind of reminds me of some people I know.

Blessings, Rhoni

Thank you.

[TRFrance]

Jesus came not to call the righteous, but the sinners to repentance.

Blessings, Rhoni

Good grief Rhoni. Please... stop the madness.

You're missing the whole point right there. Lets focus on the key word you just used there -- repentance.

When Jesus consorted with sinners, it was to be a light and to bring them to repentance. That's a lot different from "fellowshipping" with a "church" that openly embraces a sinful lifestyle and preaches that "it's not really a sin". They are misled, and misleading others as well.

The whole this is that they're not interested in repenting, because they don't feel they've done anything to repent of.


You guys don't read the same Bible I do.

Well, ... perhaps not.

In my Bible , God says: "Woe unto them that call good evil, and evil good". (Isaiah 5:20) Homosexuality,need I remind you, is deviant and evil behavior that these people are declaring to be good.

[Rhoni]

He that is without sin...cast the first stone.

[Mrs. LPW]

So we don't preach against sin any longer because that would be casting stones?
Jesus ate with the publicans and sinners... then He went to the cross. But He will someday tell people who thought they were just dandy... "depart me from ye workers of iniquity... I never knew you."

We can preach against sin without casting stones Rhoni. We all know we were once sinners, but we've been washed.
This group of people is no ordinary, never been preached to, group of sinners. They're apostate.. not knowing right from wrong any longer. Singing to them isn't going to avail much, I'm afraid. It may do more damage than good, because they'll be no preaching against sin.

I stand by my posts, but I'm leaving this conversation. I don't think it's edifying me or anyone else.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Personally I don't think a Christian should sing at a church that promotes Homosexuality as acceptable,just like a Christian shouldn't sing in a Honky Tonk.

[ReformedDave]

He that is without sin...cast the first stone.

These people that she'll be singing to have no need for repentance........in their own minds and I'll bet she doesn't call them to it.

[Rhoni]

Let's see: We began by judging the homeosexuals, to CeCe Winanas, to judging where and who people minister to. Can we think of anyone else we'd like to judge before we rule and reign with Christ in the New Jerusalem?

[SoCaliUPC]

Can someone say if this is a regular service for these people...or is she just renting the building for a concert?

[TRFrance]

Let's see: We began by judging the homeosexuals, to CeCe Winanas, to judging where and who people minister to. Can we think of anyone else we'd like to judge before we rule and reign with Christ in the New Jerusalem?
Oh brother. Now we're "judging".
*sigh* So now we cant speak against anymore, because we'll be accused of judging.

I had a feeling that that was coming....it would only be a matter of time.

[chosenbyone]

These people that she'll be singing to have no need for repentance........in their own minds and I'll bet she doesn't call them to it.

How did you know that the people would have no need for repentance "in their own minds"? How did you know that she wouldn't call them to it? How would anyone know what the Lord would have purposed for anyone attending the concert?

There could be someone in attendance who would be hungry for salvation/deliverace that only comes from Jesus. I am so thankful that Jesus died for everyone and his grace and mercies were extended to everyone whether they attending a gay church concert or an Apostolic Sunday night service.

I will not judge anyone who reaches out to any segment of our society if they present hope and truth to a lost and dying world.

[MissBrattified]

Is there a difference between singing to sinners, and singing in a church that endorses sin?

[chosenbyone]

Indeed... I hope this happens. I won't say it can't but the liklihood is slim. These are not just any sinners. These are people who preach God accepts the sin... that it is not a sin at all.

We are living in a world where some sin has been widely accepted.. and because of this there are those of Christian "faith" who have been conditioned to believe the same as the world. We're all afraid of being called biggots or labled intolerant for our stance. We're bombarded daily by these thoughts...
How can love be wrong?

If this were a church who believed you can be a Christian and murder, or lie, we wouldn't be having this conversation. We'd all be on the same page.


First let me mention that I have appreciated your sincerity on this thread. I would agree that our society has been too leniant on sin, which only robbed people from experiencing true freedom in Christ Jesus. With that said, I don't feel like we should be apprehensive with evangelizing the gay/lesbian community by showing them the love of Christ. A person would not be considered a bigot or labled intolerant if they approached the sinner with love and wisdom. What examples of grace could the homosexual be afforded when they have been shown disgust, hatred and fear?

The reason why there haven't been more homosexuals saved and delivered in our churches was because people have been unable or unwilling to rise above their own prejudices against them. We have countless examples of drunkards, drug addicts, thieves, prostitutes and so on that were delivered and restored because those sins didn't have the stigma associated with homosexuality.

[James Griffin]

You know, this is just a dumb question if you think about it.

How do you reach the lost?

With all due respect Renda, THAT was a dumb question. Don't you know the lost should have the decency to clean up their act BEFORE we can fellowship with them!!! Don't want none of that the sin stuff rubbin' off.

:stirpot

[chosenbyone]

Is there a difference between singing to sinners, and singing in a church that endorses sin?

Wouldn't the church that endorses sin have sinners in attendance?

[Praxeas]

I was with CeCe just a few days ago.....sat with her, ate with her, prayed with her. Wow, she has an awesome anointing on her life.

When she sings Alabaster Box.....it is over!
I have to side against CeCe here. I think this is a huge mistake and I think perhaps she is a little clueless...as anointed as she is and as awesome her songs are. I wonder if she has or submits to spiritual guidance from a Pastor and if that Pastor is warning her about this? She has sung with industry big names like Whitney and you know in that industry there is no rule or morality...homosexuality is approved of.

[Praxeas]

You know, this is just a dumb question if you think about it.

How do you reach the lost?
Read the article again. These are not just sinners that need to hear the gospel. These are homosexuals that have heard it, claim to be Christian, and reject the bible on it's condemnation of Homosexuality. She is not going there to preach a message about how they need to come out of that sin and be saved. She is going ot sing gospel songs.

[Praxeas]

CeCe is a Holy Ghost filled woman and who are we to question where the Lord would have her minister?

Remember, homosexuality is NOT the main issue! Often, the life of the homosexual is filled with a lot of brokenness, shame by those in the church, being rejected over and over and over; one who often doesn't measure up to everyone else; one who is is either frustrated because he/she doesnt like the fact that they are attracted to the same sex or; one who embraces the attraction and searches for Mr. or Mrs. Right, (of the same sex) and is let down time and time again, feeling more rejection, abuse and loneliness. They are really in search of LOVE - in the true sense!

Are we not compelled as Christians to accept them, embrace them and not be afraid to come alongside and help them figure life out? Too often, the church looks at the outside of the person with disgust and they dont take time to look at the heart and show them the love of Christ!

I fear that many will have to give an account to God one day because of the way they treat his children.
First of all you are assuming she was led by the Spirit to do this. Being holy ghost filled does not ensure someone does not make mistakes and this is a mistake and she needs to listen to what others are saying.

Second these are Homosexuals that have probably HEARD what you just said here and rejected it. They believe they ARE saved Homosexuals. Unless she is going there to preach and teach that they need to come OUT of that lifestyle then the kind of ministering we are talking about is not the kind they need and ends up just giving a seal of approval on this kind of church and that kind of lifestyle.

Anyone thing she will stand up and say "I came here to minister to you but before anyone thinks I approve of the gay lifestyle I do not. It still is an abomination"

These gay affirming churches are GROWING. They are not emptying out and gays becoming straight. Rather it's the other way around. Gays who become Christians are being deceived into believing God is ok with them being in a homosexual relationship

[Praxeas]

Would you agree that it would be worth CeCe to walk in a dangerous place if one could be saved from damnation? There is no way that you or I could know why this door has been opened for her to go and sing. How could we make such a judgement call of the leading of the Lord?
This is not judgement. It's spiritual discernment. It's BIBLE. These churches have been inviting other big names and getting them and rather than the gays being healed of that sin and repenting those churches are filling with more gays who are told they can have sex with someone of the same sex and God is fine with it.

Darkness is creeping in in these last days and it really is shocking to see so many Christians blind to it

[Praxeas]

She's going to perform in a building that is called a 'church' and supposedly is to be used to worship God. By appearing there she is 'affirming' their position whether she wants to or not. Is she going to present the bad news of their lifestyle and the good news that God can save and change their orientation? I'd really be surprised if she does.

This is the extreme opposite of Fred Phelps.....and just as dangerous.
Exactly.

[Praxeas]

I agree with you Renda...BTW wasn't Jesus often criticized by the Pharisees for associating and eating with publicans and sinners?:girlytantrum
Jesus didn't sing songs to them! He taught them the truth. He did not just lovey dovey all the time. He preached against sin. His words convicted people to repent. Those same sinners were wanting to hear the truth and be converted..those gays believe they HAVE the truth and are already converted....you guys really don't get it

[Praxeas]

Jesus came not to call the righteous, but the sinners to repentance. I think it is a sin for Apostolics to only eat, fellowship and minister to Apostolics.

You guys don't read the same Bible I do.

Blessings, Rhoni
I predict you are going to hate the responses you get. You do this often Sister and you end up regretting it. This is just the dumbest post I have seen in a while. A sin to eat and fellowship with other Apostolics...do you know what the word FELLOWSHIP means?

We are commanded to FELLOWSHIP with each other and break bread. It's NOT a sin. Good grief. We are commanded on the other hand to preach the word to sinners...not eat with them. If we eat with them the purpose is not fellowship but to get a chance to teach them the word of truth.

BTW we are commanded also to pray for one another....count how many verses we are commanded to pray for sinners and then the ones we are to pray for each other and see the total....

And it needs to be repeated but in this case these are people who have already heard preaching. Have already heard teaching. Already know what the bible says on that lifestyle and have rejected it to believe God wouldn't do that to someone that was born that way therefore the scriptures must not really be saying what they clearly say.

We are not talking about gays in the street that are unrepented sinners who never go to church or believe in God. We are talking about people who go to church regularly and believe God is ok with their lifestyle.

[Praxeas]

No, Jesus personally went , without a witness, to the Well to purposely meet with the Samaritan woman who was guilty of adultery! Boy, we could gossip about that a while.:girlytantrum

He did not go there to sing songs WITH her and worship God WITH her as though she was alright...He brought a message that revealed the sins of hear heart. He did not put her arm around her and ignore her sins and say "Lets just worship GOd together and fellowship"

[Praxeas]

One plants, another waters, but GOD gives the increase. God left the woman of Samaria with the choice.

Hum...what a thought.
SHe is going there to sing songs. Not preach against homosexuality.

[Praxeas]

He that is without sin...cast the first stone.
pathetic. Here we have a woman that said it is a sin for Apostolics to fellowship with Apostolics and now we have this?

Rhoni do you realize there are homosexuals that think it is OK to have sex with the same sex that call themselves Apostolic too?

Darkness really is creeping in on us

[Praxeas]

Personally I don't think a Christian should sing at a church that promotes Homosexuality as acceptable,just like a Christian shouldn't sing in a Honky Tonk.
See we are not talking about singing songs at a park where Homosexuals hang out. We are talking about a church that promotes homosexual lifestyles being OK with God. They are theologically screwed up and have already heard all the scriptures and have come up with their own pat answers for them

[PastorD]

I stand by it . . . she is anointed.

However, I would not be doing this gig. With full band it's $20,000, so maybe money raises its head again.

"Some" say her road manager is a bit "alternative". Travis . . .if not gay, is missing a good chance.

[Praxeas]

Let's see: We began by judging the homeosexuals, to CeCe Winanas, to judging where and who people minister to. Can we think of anyone else we'd like to judge before we rule and reign with Christ in the New Jerusalem?
Amazing...saying they need to repent makes us judges...

Nobody judged CeCe either. We agreed she should not go there. In fact some of the ones that said that agreed she is anointed and filled with the Spirit.

Rhoni, with all due respect, but you don't have a clue what the word "judge" means if you think it covers having an opinion that she should not go worship with Christian gays that have openly rejected the bible call to repent of that lifestyle and

Finally...judgment?

1Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

1Co 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
1Co 5:3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing.

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life--to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.
1Jn 5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

The bible is full of judging

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
In fact Jesus said
Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

We are to try the spirits Rhoni. It's not wrong.

[Praxeas]

With that said, I don't feel like we should be apprehensive with evangelizing the gay/lesbian community by showing them the love of Christ. A person would not be considered a bigot or labled intolerant if they approached the sinner with love and wisdom. What examples of grace could the homosexual be afforded when they have been shown disgust, hatred and fear?

Nobody is saying we should not evangelize the homosexual community. This is NOT "the homosexual community"..this is church full of gays that believe they are christians and that God approves of gay sex. They know the scriptures....there is not gonna be an evangelistic message after her singing calling them to repent and come out of that lifestyle.

[Praxeas]

With all due respect Renda, THAT was a dumb question. Don't you know the lost should have the decency to clean up their act BEFORE we can fellowship with them!!! Don't want none of that the sin stuff rubbin' off.

:stirpot
..this is not "the lost" that need to be cleaned up first...this is a bunch of Christians who believe they already ARE clean and we are not talking about preaching them clean either or leading them to Christ...they believe they are already right with God and trusting in Christ

[Praxeas]

This is not an evangelistic meeting. This is a concert CeCe is giving for this church that says God is ok with gay sex. If there is any alter call it will be by the gay pastor for gays to come forward and accept Jesus and NOT change their lifestyle

[mfblume]

I agree that the Winans should have a bit of discernment and not allow gays to think their sin is okayed. The Winans were wrong, period. Just because a door of opportunity is opened, it does not mean it was God who did it. All things God does must line up with His Word, or He is not doing it. And unless they somehow got the message out that God is not pleased with homosexuality, or are making inroads to achieve that goal eventually, somehow, they either did not do the will of God, or God never opened the door for them to begin with.

[TRFrance]

I am dumbfounded by the lack of discernment reflected in some of these posts.
Simply.dumbfounded.

It's no wonder that so many of our churches are lacking in power.

[ReformedDave]

How did you know that the people would have no need for repentance "in their own minds"? How did you know that she wouldn't call them to it? How would anyone know what the Lord would have purposed for anyone attending the concert?

There could be someone in attendance who would be hungry for salvation/deliverace that only comes from Jesus. I am so thankful that Jesus died for everyone and his grace and mercies were extended to everyone whether they attending a gay church concert or an Apostolic Sunday night service.

I will not judge anyone who reaches out to any segment of our society if they present hope and truth to a lost and dying world.

They would not be attending a gay church to get relief/deliverance from being gay!!!! Logically your argument fails. It's like trying to cast satan out by using his name! What they want is acceptance and I still say CeCe won't say a word. This is a far difference about eating with sinners. This is a church where they 'worship' God and think He has no problems with that.

People here either like to simply rattle cages or are some of the most deceived people and explains why the church world is in the mess it's in.

[MissBrattified]

Wouldn't the church that endorses sin have sinners in attendance?

Chosen, the difference is that, unless the Gospel is going to be proclaimed, what good is it doing the sinners?

I think you are being very shortsighted. In my opinion, it is unproductive at best, and at worst, it defies the scripture that says we are not to fellowship with believers who have turned back to sin.

I believe that scripture applies here, because we aren't talking about brothers and sisters who have simply messed up or fallen down, we're talking about people who are embracing sin, in the name of the Lord.

I would certainly think that ministering in a church with homosexuals present is wonderful! But ministering in a church that tells those homosexuals they are saved and alright with God? To me, that is apostasy, and I would want no part in it.

That would be like singing for a special event in a church that supports a swinging lifestyle or approves of incest.

Christ came to save sinners, but He rebuked hypocrites and pharisees, and if anyone qualifies as a hypocrite and pharisee, it is someone who professes Christ with their mouth, but continues in sin freely and without conviction or condemnation.

[Aquila]

Indeed... I hope this happens. I won't say it can't but the liklihood is slim. These are not just any sinners. These are people who preach God accepts the sin... that it is not a sin at all.

We are living in a world where some sin has been widely accepted.. and because of this there are those of Christian "faith" who have been conditioned to believe the same as the world. We're all afraid of being called biggots or labled intolerant for our stance. We're bombarded daily by these thoughts...
How can love be wrong?

If this were a church who believed you can be a Christian and murder, or lie, we wouldn't be having this conversation. We'd all be on the same page.

All sinners think their sin is acceptable to God.

We have plenty of "conservative" Apostolic churches that advocate murder and lie and we have been socially conditioned to accept it. For example, most conservative churches radically support the death penalty because they see it in the OT. They also support Christians being actively involved in combative military actions. Yet in America up to 11% of those executed have been later found to have been innocent of the crimes charged, had received insufficient legal counsel, or a fair and legal trial. If just one innocent person is executed the system has innocent blood on it's hands.

In just the Iraq War an estimated 80,000 non-combatant civilians have been killed as collateral damage or in the cross-fire between coalition troops and insurgents. Not to mention the war's justification is questionable. We don't question these things as Christians. Our churches don't have the courage to stand up to the "conservative political correctness" and command a purely "Christian Ethos". Early Pentecostal pioneers united and began licensing to qualify for consciencious objector status. They also openly spoke out against war. It was said by one early 20th century Christian leader that Christians shouldn't sacrifice their children on the altar of the modern Moloch of patriotism...because we are not of this world, the last thing we should be are pawns in it's wars.

Also most Christians oppose any efforts to make sure that all Americans have the health insurance they need to survive. Thousands of Americans die each year because they just don't have medical insurance. Christians attack, denigrate, denounce, mock, and rebuke anyone who would advocate finding a way to cover all Americans.

In short...most conservative churches in America only believe in the sanctity of life in relation to one issue...abortion. The unborn are defended...the innocent sentenced to death is accepted, the high cost of life found in the wake of war is accepted, the loss of life from treatable sickness and disease is accepted. What stings the conscience of so many is that the church would have defended all these people and sought to protect their lives before they were born...but once born the church shifts into situational ethics accepting their deaths in so many other circumstances.

Oh well. My point is that though the perspective isn't popular, many of our churches do allow murder. Then they pull out their Bibles and excuse themselves.

It's all the same as the gay church in question. But for the record I certainly wouldn't have attended the gay church.

[DividedThigh]

yikes, these people at this church are not ignorant, they know what they stand for and shout it out loud, therefore it is my duty to leave them to it, yikes, dt:tvhappy

[Aquila]

Oh brother. Now we're "judging".
*sigh* So now we cant speak against anymore, because we'll be accused of judging.

I had a feeling that that was coming....it would only be a matter of time.

I think the issue is standing in judgment of CeCe's heart. She may be personally opposed to homosexuality, but felt that it might afford her an opportunity to help or witness to a friend or friends.

Homosexuality is a sin. The statement isn't judging. But when we zero in and make it personal, assuming things about an individual we're on the edge of being judgmental at best.

[Aquila]

I agree that the Winans should have a bit of discernment and not allow gays to think their sin is okayed. The Winans were wrong, period. Just because a door of opportunity is opened, it does not mean it was God who did it. All things God does must line up with His Word, or He is not doing it. And unless they somehow got the message out that God is not pleased with homosexuality, or are making inroads to achieve that goal eventually, somehow, they either did not do the will of God, or God never opened the door for them to begin with.

Amen. Perhaps Satan opened the door so that CeCe, who has a big heart, would walk through it. Satan was probably banking on the fact that so many would tear her down for it. If one is touching hearts for Christ and Satan can't destroy their ministry...he'll find a way to get us to destroy it for him.

I'd just privately share with CeCe that it might be unwise to do that again.

[RevBuddy]

Cece Winans is a woman of integrity and 100% against homosexuality. She stated that she would like for us to do a tour together. I would be proud to travel with her, she loves God and stands up for him in secular settings.

You didn't address the issue above at all...

[ReformedDave]

All sinners think their sin is acceptable to God.

We have plenty of "conservative" Apostolic churches that advocate murder and lie and we have been socially conditioned to accept it. For example, most conservative churches radically support the death penalty because they see it in the OT. They also support Christians being actively involved in combative military actions. Yet in America up to 11% of those executed have been later found to have been innocent of the crimes charged, had received insufficient legal counsel, or a fair and legal trial. If just one innocent person is executed the system has innocent blood on it's hands.

In just the Iraq War an estimated 80,000 non-combatant civilians have been killed as collateral damage or in the cross-fire between coalition troops and insurgents. Not to mention the war's justification is questionable. We don't question these things as Christians. Our churches don't have the courage to stand up to the "conservative political correctness" and command a purely "Christian Ethos". Early Pentecostal pioneers united and began licensing to qualify for consciencious objector status. They also openly spoke out against war. It was said by one early 20th century Christian leader that Christians shouldn't sacrifice their children on the altar of the modern Moloch of patriotism...because we are not of this world, the last thing we should be are pawns in it's wars.

Also most Christians oppose any efforts to make sure that all Americans have the health insurance they need to survive. Thousands of Americans die each year because they just don't have medical insurance. Christians attack, denigrate, denounce, mock, and rebuke anyone who would advocate finding a way to cover all Americans.

In short...most conservative churches in America only believe in the sanctity of life in relation to one issue...abortion. The unborn are defended...the innocent sentenced to death is accepted, the high cost of life found in the wake of war is accepted, the loss of life from treatable sickness and disease is accepted. What stings the conscience of so many is that the church would have defended all these people and sought to protect their lives before they were born...but once born the church shifts into situational ethics accepting their deaths in so many other circumstances.

Oh well. My point is that though the perspective isn't popular, many of our churches do allow murder. Then they pull out their Bibles and excuse themselves.

It's all the same as the gay church in question. But for the record I certainly wouldn't have attended the gay church.

Under the OT administration it was 'murder' to execute someone and there were not just wars? Seems that Hebrews 2 the writer refers to the OT law and penalties being "just". This isn't a culture justice that changes according to convention.

Any law can be abused but you would throw all penalties out due to the misuse by fallible humans.

[Aquila]

I think CeCe meant well and was unwise about her choice to do this. Until she openly endorces this I'd chalk it up to bad judgment on this occasion.

I think discussion of this subject could continue in a way that doesn't indict CeCe for this lapse in judgment but rather addresses the points of Affirmation Theology. These individuals actually believe that the Bible teaches that homosexuality is acceptable within certain parameters. They use various passages and aspects of language to support their theological position.

The tenents of their theology follows the line of these concepts that they claim are arrived at through study of the Scriptures...

-They see the story of Sodom as a case illustrating the threat of gang rape not strictly homosexuality in general. They point out that this sin is repeated in Judges 19 where the crowd wishes to rape the Levite but instead are allowed to rape his concubine. They claim that this illustrates a crime of violence not a committed homosexual relatinoship.

-They believe that the laws against homosexuality in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are actually part of Israel's holiness code and are no longer binding such as the eating of shell fish, wearing blended fabrics, touching a woman during mensturation, etc. Some have attempted to linguistically prove that these laws in the Law of Moses were aimed at addressing the specific pagan practices of enslaving men, castrating them, and using them as personal or temple sex slaves. Israel eventually did use these prostitutes in the Temple of Jehovah in the books of I Kings and II Kings. They claim homosexuality in general isn't the subject of the text but rather the use of male sex slaves or prostitutes.

-They claim that the Bible views three homosexual relationships in a positive light. The first point to David and Jonathan who lived together in Saul's house when Saul was King. They claim that David and Jonathan's souls were knit together and a sexual relationship is indicated in Saul's accusation against Jonathan sexually shaming his mother by maintaining his relationship with David. They continue in this line of thought underscoring David and Jonathan's embracing, weeping, and kissing. They attempt to use the Hebrew language to insinuate that David and Jonathan had a sexual encounter at one moment when David "exceeded" which they claim is a Hebrew term used for male arousal. They conclude with how David mourned the death of Jonathan stating, "I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women."

-These homosexual churches also claim that Ruth and Naomi may have had a sexual dimension to their relationship. They statet that the words used in their covenant of partnership reflect a covenant of marriage, "Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the Lord deal with me, be it ever so severely, if anything but death separates you and me.(NIV)". They are forced to admit that beyond this there is absolutely no indication that they were physically intimate.

-They also claim that Daniel and Ashpenaz are another incident. They claim that Daniel 1:9's wording, "favour and tender love" (chesed v’rachamim) can be translated "mercy and physical love."

-They believe that the Roman centurian's servant in the Gospels was the Roman centuran's male companion as was common among centurians seeing that Roman law forbid them to marry or have children. They claim that Jesus heals this man's servant without condemning the relationship.

-They claim Jesus never mentions homosexuality in his teachings as found in the Gospels.

-They claim that in Romans 1 Paul was refering to straight married couples participating in homosexual acts during the debaucheries performed in Roman temples not homosexuality in general.

-They claim that the language used in the Epistles addressing homosexuality specifically condemn male prostitution and pediphilia not homosexuality in general.

Let's not personally judge CeCe or others...let's examine and refute their theology.

[ReformedDave]

I think CeCe meant well and was unwise about her choice to do this. Until she openly endorces this I'd chalk it up to bad judgment on this occasion.

I think discussion of this subject could continue in a way that doesn't indict CeCe for this lapse in judgment by addressing the points of Affirmation Theology. These individuals actually believe that the Bible teaches that homosexuality is acceptable within certain parameters. They use various passages and aspects of language to support their theological position.

The tenents of their theology follows the line of these concepts that they claim are arrived at through study of the Scriptures...

-They see the story of Sodom as a case illustrating the threat of gang rape not strictly homosexuality in general. They point out that this sin is repeated in Judges 19 where the crowd wishes to rape the Levite but instead are allowed to rape his concubine. They claim that this illustrates a crime of violence not a committed homosexual relatinoship.

-They believe that the laws against homosexuality in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are actually part of Israel's holiness code and are no longer binding such as the eating of shell fish, wearing blended fabrics, touching a woman during mensturation, etc. Some have attempted to linguistically prove that these laws in the Law of Moses were aimed at addressing the specific pagan practices of enslaving men, castrating them, and using them as personal or temple sex slaves. Israel eventually did use these prostitutes in the Temple of Jehovah in the books of I Kings and II Kings. They claim homosexuality in general isn't the subject of the text but rather the use of male sex slaves or prostitutes.

-They claim that the Bible views two homosexual relationships in a positive light. The first point to David and Jonathan who lived together in Saul's house when Saul was King. They claim that David and Jonathan's souls were knit together and a sexual relationship is indicated in Saul's accusation against Jonathan sexually shaming his mother by maintaining his relationship with David. They continue in this line of thought underscoring David and Jonathan's embracing, weeping, and kissing. They attempt to use the Hebrew language to insinuate that David and Jonathan had a sexual encounter at one moment when David "exceeded" which they claim is a Hebrew term used for male arousal. They conclude with how David mourned the death of Jonathan stating, "I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women."

-These homosexual churches also claim that Ruth and Naomi may have had a sexual dimension to their relationship. They statet that the words used in their covenant of partnership reflect a covenant of marriage, "Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the Lord deal with me, be it ever so severely, if anything but death separates you and me.(NIV)". They are forced to admit that beyond this there is absolutely no indication that they were physically intimate.

-They also claim that Daniel and Ashpenaz are another incident. They claim that Daniel 1:9's wording, "favour and tender love" (chesed v’rachamim) can be translated "mercy and physical love."

-They believe that the Roman centurian's servant in the Gospels was the Roman centuran's male companion as was common among centurians seeing that Roman law forbid them to marry or have children. They claim that Jesus heals this man's servant without condemning the relationship.

-They claim Jesus never mentions homosexuality in his teachings as found in the Gospels.

-They claim that in Romans 1 Paul was refering to straight couples participating in homosexual acts during the debaucheries performed in Roman temples not homosexuality in general.

-They claim that the language used in the Epistles addressing homosexuality specifically condemn male prostitution and pediphilia not homosexuality in general.

Let's not personally judge CeCe or others...let's examine and refute their theology.

My concern is the lack of judgment she is showing. I hope that's what it is. I hope it's not an issue that they are a legitimate church and this is a legitimate, albeit, alternate way to worship.

[Aquila]

Under the OT administration it was 'murder' to execute someone and there were not just wars? Seems that Hebrews 2 the writer refers to the OT law and penalties being "just". This isn't a culture justice that changes according to convention.

Any law can be abused but you would throw all penalties out due to the misuse by fallible humans.

First, God's choice to institute execution among his people was necessary seeing that God's focus was a nation. I'm not saying that the death penalty isn't necessary. I'm saying that we should view it with extreme reserve and always remind ourselves that we aren't ancient Israel and that our system is often flawed. We therefore should advocate that all measures be taken to save the life of the condemned on the grounds that they may indeed be innocent. When DNA evidence or outright confessions are made perhaps it's more justifiable. Again, I'm not against the death penalty. I just have reservations against a wholesale embrace of it. I see it as incongruous to support prison ministry and mercy...and yet support the death penalty wholesale. Typically the death penalty is persued in a spirit of revenge not justice. This is why we've executed some who were innocent. Revenge can bring a mad rush to judgment that clouds justice. So in short I have reservations about the death penalty, I feel we should always advocate on the side of mercy, teach forgiveness no matter how difficult, and even when the condemned are executed...I believe that a Christian shouldn't flip the switch but rather close their eyes and pray that it be fast for the sake of the condemned. Do they deserve it? Absolutely not. My human nature says, "Fry 'em!" But that's my flesh. My spirit sees a soul. It sees the death penalty as a final tragedy in the situation. Two tragedies...the loss of the victime...and the loss of the condemned.

As for Israel's wars. You will remember that in the beginning God himself defended Israel supernaturally. When Israel did march to war they marched under the DIRECT order from God as spoken through the prophets. They weren't sent by a President who counseled with staff. It was ordered by God himself. Also again, God was focused upon a nation. Today he is focused on us as individual people called out from the nations. Therefore these wars don't compare to war today. To continue, after Israel grew in power and demanded a king God slowy began backing away from being the defender of the nation. The prophet Samuel even warned them that a king would use their children to wage wars and serve his interests. From that point forward Israel's protection was increasingly in their own hands until God completely turned them over to their enemies culminating in what happened in the year 70 AD. War is the scourge of humanity.

Also consider how governments have been known to lie to justify war. How does a Christian know when they are truly engaged in a justified military action? When a Christian participates in this world's military they accept being pawns of the government that can be used in an unjustified manner. Even in Hilter's Germany the average German soldier believed the Allies were out to destroy the German Fatherland and their beloved culture and history. Lies abounded in Hitler's propaganda. Often they just wanted to preserve what they felt the Allies would destroy. When Hitler invaded a country he never said, "We'll invade them though they did us no harm." No, Hitler always claimed the nations he invaded served as threats to his Germany and that pre-emptive action was necessary to preserve the German state from enemies who hated her. Can a Christian truly "trust" fallen worldly governments to always act righteously? No. Could you see an American Apostolic serving in the American military meeting a foreign Apostolic serving in his nation's military meeting on the battlefield killing eachother, each believing the other nation is the aggressor? No. Therefore I believe we should refrain from allowing ourselves to be pawns in this world's wars. If any Christian participates in the military surely it would be best to serve in a non-combatant fashion. But still the ethical questions of possibly participating in an unjustified war of national self interest should cause us pause and consideration.

Also consider that civilians caught in the crossfire, manipulated, beaten, and interrogated often walk away having paid the highest cost of war. In Iraq it's estimated that tens of thousands of civilians (men, women, and children) have been killed. War is often presented with patriotism, glamor, valor, and glory...it's reality is rarely told. How can we advocate that Christians shouldn't attend movie theaters because of the sexual content, rape, violence, murder, and madness portrayed...yet advocate that Christians participate with war in real life? All these things are in abundance in the shadows of war.

Since God is no longer focused on building a nation but rather a called out people, much of what was done in the OT isn't applicable but rather serves as spiritual types and shadows. Today we do not violently wage war in the flesh...we wage war in the spirit through preaching and teaching God's Word in a lost and fallen world.

We should stand and speak regarding the value of life in every context. Life is either sacred or it isn't.

But Dave, this thread is about CeCe and churches with gay affirming theology. Let's stay on topic.

[Twisp]

The major point in this whole conversation is that none of us knows if the Lord led her to do it. If He did, who are we to say it is wrong? We simply don't know, and it would be arrogant for us to judge her with our finite knowledge of the situation. Even if these people have read the Bible, fervently believe their lifestyle is righteous, and are not repentant, why should she not go? Does a sinner have to fit into certain guidelines before we are allowed to witness to them? We don't know if the Lord led her to this, and we need to stop saying she is wrong for it, lest we look like fools.

[ReformedDave]

First, God's choice to institute execution among his people was necessary seeing that God's focus was a nation. I'm not saying that the death penalty isn't necessary. I'm saying that we should view it with extreme reserve and always remind ourselves that we aren't ancient Israel and that our system is often flawed. We therefore should advocate that all measures be taken to save the life of the condemned on the grounds that they may indeed be innocent. When DNA evidence or outright confessions are made perhaps it's more justifiable. Again, I'm not against the death penalty. I just have reservations against a wholesale embrace of it. I see it as incongruous to support prison ministry and mercy...and yet support the death penalty wholesale. Typically the death penalty is persued in a spirit of revenge not justice. This is why we've executed some who were innocent. Revenge can bring a mad rush to judgment that clouds justice. So in short I have reservations about the death penalty, I feel we should always advocate on the side of mercy, teach forgiveness no matter how difficult, and even when the condemned are executed...I believe that a Christian shouldn't flip the switch but rather close their eyes and pray that it be fast for the sake of the condemned. Do they deserve it? Absolutely not. My human nature says, "Fry 'em!" But that's my flesh. My spirit sees a soul. It sees the death penalty as a final tragedy in the situation. Two tragedies...the loss of the victime...and the loss of the condemned.

As for Israel's wars. You will remember that in the beginning God himself defended Israel supernaturally. When Israel did march to war they marched under the DIRECT order from God as spoken through the prophets. They weren't sent by a President who counseled with staff. It was ordered by God himself. Also again, God was focused upon a nation. Today he is focused on us as individual people called out from the nations. Therefore these wars don't compare to war today. To continue, after Israel grew in power and demanded a king God slowy began backing away from being the defender of the nation. The prophet Samuel even warned them that a king would use their children to wage wars and serve his interests. From that point forward Israel's protection was increasingly in their own hands until God completely turned them over to their enemies culminating in what happened in the year 70 AD. War is the scourge of humanity.

Also consider how governments have been known to lie to justify war. How does a Christian know when they are truly engaged in a justified military action? When a Christian participates in this world's military they accept being pawns of the government that can be used in an unjustified manner. Even in Hilter's Germany the average German soldier believed the Allies were out to destroy the German Fatherland and their beloved culture and history. Lies abounded in Hitler's propaganda. Often they just wanted to preserve what they felt the Allies would destroy. When Hitler invaded a country he never said, "We'll invade them though they did us no harm." No, Hitler always claimed the nations he invaded served as threats to his Germany and that pre-emptive action was necessary to preserve the German state from enemies who hated her. Can a Christian truly "trust" fallen worldly governments to always act righteously? No. Could you see an American Apostolic serving in the American military meeting a foreign Apostolic serving in his nation's military meeting on the battlefield killing eachother, each believing the other nation is the aggressor? No. Therefore I believe we should refrain from allowing ourselves to be pawns in this world's wars. If any Christian participates in the military surely it would be best to serve in a non-combatant fashion. But still the ethical questions of possibly participating in an unjustified war of national self interest should cause us pause and consideration.

Since God is no longer focused on building a nation but rather a called out people, much of what was done in the OT isn't applicable but rather serves as spiritual types and shadows. Today we do not violently wage war in the flesh...we wage war in the spirit through preaching and teaching God's Word in a lost and fallen world.

We should stand and speak regarding the value of life in every context. Life is either sacred or it isn't.

I'm working a series of 12 hrs shifts thru Sunday so please forgive the brevity and the sporadic nature of my answers.

You said "Since God is no longer focused on building a nation but rather a called out people, much of what was done in the OT isn't applicable but rather serves as spiritual types and shadows. Today we do not violently wage war in the flesh...we wage war in the spirit through preaching and teaching God's Word in a lost and fallen world. "

This is where we have a fundamental difference. You believe that "much" of the OT law serves as a mere example. I believe that the hermanutical principle is that the provisions of the law remain intact unless changed by the Writer of the new covenant. While God may not have a 'earthly' people, per se, He does exercise authority over the nations of the world and installs the rulers as His ministers to carry out justice. This is not an arbitrary justice. Justice, to be just, can not be arbitrary or changing. There must be a law above the local/national civil law. I agree that through history most rulers have not followed that law that that in no way negates it's necessity. They are held responsible for keeping it.

You show examples of justice being perverted and I agree. We must be careful to execute extreme caution be for rendering the death penalty. I have no problem there and we have many tools at our disposal, that the ancients didn't have, that help us determine the facts of the case.

The scripture calls Christ's civil ministers(magistrates) to dispense the 'wrath', 'vengeance', and 'fear' of God against civil disobedience. BTW, this is New
Testament. It is clear that God has ordained both temporal and eternal judgment. Where are the magistrates of the earth to get their guidance for proper punishment that is just, fair, and not arbitrary?

Sorry! Got to run.....

[Aquila]

I'm working a series of 12 hrs shifts thru Sunday so please forgive the brevity and the sporadic nature of my answers.

You said "Since God is no longer focused on building a nation but rather a called out people, much of what was done in the OT isn't applicable but rather serves as spiritual types and shadows. Today we do not violently wage war in the flesh...we wage war in the spirit through preaching and teaching God's Word in a lost and fallen world. "

This is where we have a fundamental difference. You believe that "much" of the OT law serves as a mere example. I believe that the hermanutical principle is that the provisions of the law remain intact unless changed by the Writer of the new covenant. While God may not have a 'earthly' people, per se, He does exercise authority over the nations of the world and installs the rulers as His ministers to carry out justice. This is not an arbitrary justice. Justice, to be just, can not be arbitrary or changing. There must be a law above the local/national civil law. I agree that through history most rulers have not followed that law that that in no way negates it's necessity. They are held responsible for keeping it.

Do you believe slavery is an acceptable institution for society? It's legislated in the OT and slaves are admonished to be obedient to their masters in the NT. Paul even told a run away slave to return to his master. The Law as found in the OT must be interpreted within it's covenantal context. It was part of a specific covenant established with a specific people for a specific purpose. We cannot extrapolate Israel's covenant and apply it to the United States. We may be able to draw principles from the Law to guide us in government and justice but the Law itself applies only to Israel.

You show examples of justice being perverted and I agree. We must be careful to execute extreme caution be for rendering the death penalty. I have no problem there and we have many tools at our disposal, that the ancients didn't have, that help us determine the facts of the case.

See, we agree on far more than you may have assumed. ;)

The scripture calls Christ's civil ministers(magistrates) to dispense the 'wrath', 'vengeance', and 'fear' of God against civil disobedience. BTW, this is New
Testament. It is clear that God has ordained both temporal and eternal judgment.

Can you show me one of Christ's "civil ministers or magistrates" in the New Testament? I know Paul refers to the Roman government then standing in Romans 13, the primary point of Paul's statement was obeying authorities and paying taxes.

Where are the magistrates of the earth to get their guidance for proper punishment that is just, fair, and not arbitrary?
Sorry! Got to run.....

I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you saying that we should stone people? lol

[DividedThigh]

Do you believe slavery is an acceptable institution for society? It's legislated in the OT and slaves are admonished to be obedient to their masters in the NT. Paul even told a run away slave to return to his master. The Law as found in the OT must be interpreted within it's covenantal context. It was part of a specific covenant established with a specific people for a specific purpose. We cannot extrapolate Israel's covenant and apply it to the United States. We may be able to draw principles from the Law to guide us in government and justice but the Law itself applies only to Israel.



See, we agree on far more than you may have assumed. ;)



Can you show me one of Christ's "civil ministers or magistrates" in the New Testament? I know Paul refers to the Roman government then standing in Romans 13, the primary point of Paul's statement was obeying authorities and paying taxes.



I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you saying that we should stone people? lol

maybe he is saying we should stone you, just kidding, lol, dt:happydance

[Aquila]

maybe he is saying we should stone you, just kidding, lol, dt:happydance

LOL

[DividedThigh]

LOL

glad you have a sense of humor bro,of course i am kidding , sometimes i just have to laugh, lol, the world is a very serious place, dt:tvhappy

[Aquila]

Where are the magistrates of the earth to get their guidance for proper punishment that is just, fair, and not arbitrary?


I had to think about this one. I'd side with the political theory that states that governments and magistrates should rule according to the consent of the governed...

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." - Declaration of Independence

Government derives it's just powers from the consent of the governed. That is the foundational principle of government.

[ReformedDave]

Aquila, you said "Do you believe slavery is an acceptable institution for society? " I have not worked all the aspects of the appropriate use of the law. What I do believe is that if a person commits a crime he should have to work out his punishment as prescribed in Scripture.

Aquila - "Can you show me one of Christ's "civil ministers or magistrates" in the New Testament? I know Paul refers to the Roman government then standing in Romans 13, the primary point of Paul's statement was obeying authorities and paying taxes."

All magistrates and rulers are placed in their positions by God. That Scripture doesn't name one doesn't negate the teaching.

Romans 13:1-7 (ESV) 13:1 "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed."

While taxes are mentioned the first 5 verses talk of overall principles. We see civil magistrates are placed by God and if they are resisted they are to dispense God's wrath and to use the sword if the punishment is necessary. If we sin against the state we incur God's wrath in the form of the magistrate.

In my last paragraph I asked "Where are the magistrates of the earth to get their guidance for proper punishment that is just, fair, and not arbitrary?"

It simply means what is the unchanging, just, non-arbitrary, standard by which all magistrates are to govern? What is the objective law above the local law?

BTW, I don't believe that the church is to run the state or that there should be a 'state' church. I do believe in separation between church and state.

[ReformedDave]

I had to think about this one. I'd side with the political theory that states that governments and magistrates should rule according to the consent of the governed...

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." - Declaration of Independence

That is the foundational principle of government. Government derives it's just powers from the consent of the governed.

My problem with this is that it opens one up to the arbitrary and becomes legalized mob rule. If the 'people' say that it is alright to kill Jews than it is alright. We've seen it in America with the killing of 50,000,000 unborn babies. Also, if this is THE foundation principle on which all civil rules are derived will God not judge us for our actions?

[Aquila]

In my last paragraph I asked "Where are the magistrates of the earth to get their guidance for proper punishment that is just, fair, and not arbitrary?"

It simply means what is the unchanging, just, non-arbitrary, standard by which all magistrates are to govern? What is the objective law above the local law?


I'd say they get their guidance from the governed. That's the only way it will work. Even instituting biblical law would have to come by consent of the governed. And then the question would be who's interpretation of biblical law should be instituted? Do we institute biblical law as interpreted by the right wing Dominionists, Christian Socialists, or gay churches like the one described here? It will always fall back to the universal principle of ruling according to the consent of the governed.

[ReformedDave]

I'd say they get their guidance from the governed. That's the only way it will work. Even instituting biblical law would have to come by consent of the governed. And then the question would be who's interpretation of biblical law should be instituted? Do we institute biblical law as interpreted by the right wing Dominionists, Christian Socialists, or gay churches like the one described here? It will always fall back to the universal principle of ruling according to the consent of the governed.

I disagree. We must have an objective standard or we have mob rule and Hitler and abortion are possible. Why do you teach a certain doctrine in your assembly? Because you know that truth is possible to ascertain. We must continually strive for an understanding.

"Universal principle"? What makes it universal or a principle?

[Aquila]

My problem with this is that it opens one up to the arbitrary and becomes legalized mob rule. If the 'people' say that it is alright to kill Jews than it is alright. We've seen it in America with the killing of 50,000,000 unborn babies. Also, if this is THE foundation principle on which all civil rules are derived will God not judge us for our actions?

That's the key...God wil judge us for our "actions". Remember God placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden and gave man a...choice. That word places responsibility on the individual as opposed to the whole of a society.

I don't think one can draw an absolute parallel between the Holocaust and abortion in the United States. The Holocaust was the wholesale murder of an entire people as a policy. Those who would hide Jews were put to death with them. If the American government force women to abort under penalty of death you'd have a case.

The SCOTUS deliberated over the complexity of the issue hearing from nearly every angle. In this situation you have two lives intertwined in a way unlike any other. The court felt that the rights, choice, and health of the mother have the most weight under the law. That preventing her from aborting would essentially be government seizure of her body until delivery. Given the legal and moral complexity of the issue the SCOTUS decided that the government is incapable of addressing the issue adequately, therefore they decided to take a hands off approach and place the choice entirely in the woman's hands. In Roe they set standards by which individual states can regulate the provision of abortion based on trimester. Main point was that government is incapable of adequately addressing the issue and women were individual responsible for their own choice.

That decision places the onus on the individual woman who chooses to have an abortion. She alone is responsible for her choice and she alone will be judged by God accordingly. While abortion is still a grave sin, the taking of a life, it isn't anywhere near equal to the Holocaust.

Interestingly however China does force women to abort under penalty as policy. China is the largest exporter of goods into the United States. The largest retailer in the United States is Walmart. The vast majority of goods sold by Walmart are made in China, benefitting both nation's economy greatly. Yet free market leaders in the US who claim to be pro-life hail Walmart as a sterling example of American success. Few Christians who are pro-life see an issue with shopping at Walmart, thereby fueling the economy and adding to the wealth of China, a nation that forces women to have abortions.

Every dollar spent in Walmart can be likened unto aiding a nation that performs genocide through forced abortion as a national policy. That my dear friend is on the level of sympathizing and even aiding the Germans during the Holocaust.

Walmart
Low Morals, Low Prices

[DividedThigh]

That's the key...God wil judge us for our "actions". Remember God placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden and gave man a...choice. That word places responsibility on the individual as opposed to the whole of a society.

I don't think one can draw an absolute parallel between the Holocaust and abortion in the United States. The Holocaust was the wholesale murder of an entire people as a policy. Those who would hide Jews were put to death with them. If the American government force women to abort under penalty of death you'd have a case.

The SCOTUS deliberated over the complexity of the issue hearing from nearly every angle. In this situation you have two lives intertwined in a way unlike any other. The court felt that the rights, choice, and health of the mother have the most weight under the law. That preventing her from aborting would essentially be government seizure of her body until delivery. Given the legal and moral complexity of the issue the SCOTUS decided that the government is incapable of addressing the issue adequately, therefore they decided to take a hands off approach and place the choice entirely in the woman's hands. In Roe they set standards by which individual states can regulate the provision of abortion based on trimester. Main point was that government is incapable of adequately addressing the issue and women were individual responsible for their own choice.

That decision places the onus on the individual woman who chooses to have an abortion. She alone is responsible for her choice and she alone will be judged by God accordingly. While abortion is still a grave sin, the taking of a life, it isn't anywhere near equal to the Holocaust.

Interestingly however China does force women to abort under penalty as policy. China is the largest exporter of goods into the United States. The largest retailer in the United States is Walmart. The vast majority of goods sold by Walmart are made in China, benefitting both nation's economy greatly. Yet free market leaders in the US who claim to be pro-life hail Walmart as a sterling example of American success. Few Christians who claim to be pro-life see no issue with shopping at Walmart, thereby fueling the economy and adding to the wealth of China, a nation that forces women to have abortions.

Every dollar spent in Walmart can be likened unto aiding a nation that performs genocide through forced abortion as a national policy. That my dear friend is on the level of sympathizing and even aiding the Germans during the Holocaust.

it is ludicrous for you to use that circle logic to try and hold walmart accountable for the sins of the chinese govt, come on, well i thought we could talk but your lib thinking is beyond me, take care, god bless you is my prayer, dt bye bye

[Aquila]

it is ludicrous for you to use that circle logic to try and hold walmart accountable for the sins of the chinese govt, come on, well i thought we could talk but your lib thinking is beyond me, take care, god bless you is my prayer, dt bye bye

If one can shop in a place that fuels the economy of a nation that forces abortion and not be accountable in any way for that nation's sins...how are we responsible for the individual choice a woman makes in a free society? If we are morally implicated in the individual choice a woman makes as an individual merely based upon our politic, are we not morally implicated in the forced abortion policies of China if we shop somewhere that fuels their economy adding to their wealth, prosperity, and influence in the world?

No woman is forced to abort by the government in America. In China they are. However, we say it's ok to help China by purchasing goods made in China?

My point is that we are only zeroing in on a very narrow aspect of social morality and behaving as though it is the pre-eminent issue we face as a people. But things are more complex than that. That's all I'm saying.

Consider this quesion,

What if this were the 1930s or 1940s, gas chambers are in full operation daily, and Walmart was marketing and selling products manufactured in Nazi Germany? Would it be OK to shop at Walmart? What would be the moral implications of a political party hailing Walmart as a sterling example of American business success?

Don't freak out over what I'm saying bro. Try to see the point I'm trying to make.

[DividedThigh]

If one can shop in a place that fuels the economy of a nation that forces abortion and not be accountable in any way for that nation's sins...how are we responsible for the individual choice a woman makes in a free society? If we are morally implicated in the individual choice a woman makes as an individual merely based upon our politic, are we not morally implicated in the forced abortion policies of China if we shop somewhere that fuels their economy adding to their wealth, prosperity, and influence in the world?

No woman is forced to abort by the government in America. In China they are. However, we say it's ok to help China by purchasing goods made in China?

What if this were WWII and Walmart was producing products manufactured in Nazi Germany. Would it be OK to shop at Walmart?

good luck and god bless you bro, dt

[ReformedDave]

That's the key...God wil judge us for our "actions". Remember God placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden and gave man a...choice. That word places responsibility on the individual as opposed to the whole of a society.

I don't think one can draw an absolute parallel between the Holocaust and abortion in the United States. The Holocaust was the wholesale murder of an entire people as a policy. Those who would hide Jews were put to death with them. If the American government force women to abort under penalty of death you'd have a case.

The SCOTUS deliberated over the complexity of the issue hearing from nearly every angle. In this situation you have two lives intertwined in a way unlike any other. The court felt that the rights, choice, and health of the mother have the most weight under the law. That preventing her from aborting would essentially be government seizure of her body until delivery. Given the legal and moral complexity of the issue the SCOTUS decided that the government is incapable of addressing the issue adequately, therefore they decided to take a hands off approach and place the choice entirely in the woman's hands. In Roe they set standards by which individual states can regulate the provision of abortion based on trimester. Main point was that government is incapable of adequately addressing the issue and women were individual responsible for their own choice.

That decision places the onus on the individual woman who chooses to have an abortion. She alone is responsible for her choice and she alone will be judged by God accordingly. While abortion is still a grave sin, the taking of a life, it isn't anywhere near equal to the Holocaust.

Interestingly however China does force women to abort under penalty as policy. China is the largest exporter of goods into the United States. The largest retailer in the United States is Walmart. The vast majority of goods sold by Walmart are made in China, benefitting both nation's economy greatly. Yet free market leaders in the US who claim to be pro-life hail Walmart as a sterling example of American success. Few Christians who are pro-life see an issue with shopping at Walmart, thereby fueling the economy and adding to the wealth of China, a nation that forces women to have abortions.

Every dollar spent in Walmart can be likened unto aiding a nation that performs genocide through forced abortion as a national policy. That my dear friend is on the level of sympathizing and even aiding the Germans during the Holocaust.

Walmart
Low Morals, Low Prices

You never dealt with the arbitrariness of your position. You used the term "universal principle". How is it universal in scope? While I agree that a government has to be supported by those governed I don't believe that it's authority or legitimacy comes from the people.

Also, Scripture indicates that a man can be put to death for the killing of an unborn child or a child that is born prematurely due to his actions. The Supreme court is incorrect.

It's does bother me that you think that the killing of a pre-born human is less significant than the killing of a post-born human.

BTW, do you have anything from China in your possession?

[Aquila]

You never dealt with the arbitrariness of your position. You used the term "universal principle". How is it universal in scope? While I agree that a government has to be supported by those governed I don't believe that it's authority or legitimacy comes from the people.

Also, Scripture indicates that a man can be put to death for the killing of an unborn child or a child that is born prematurely due to his actions. The Supreme court is incorrect.
My point with it being a unversal principle is that no matter how righteous or wicked a given government is...it derives it's just powers from the people who allow it to rule.

The text reads...

Exodus 21:22-24
22If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

This has to do with men injuring a pregnant woman. In all honesty says nothing about an individual woman choosing to abort. American Law states the same. Though our government allows a woman to choose, if she is injured as the result of another's negligence, they can be charged for crimes up to murder if she or her child suffers extensive physical harm or death. We can only speak to that which the text addresses.

It's does bother me that you think that the killing of a pre-born human is less significant than the killing of a post-born human.

I never said that killing a pre-born human is less significant than the killing of a post-born human bro. I explained that legal abortion by individual choice isn't a forced policy like the Holocaust was therefore it's not on the same level and comparisons are inaccurate.

BTW, do you have anything from China in your possession?

Yes. But that wasn't my point. My point was that there is more than one way to be implicated in the abortion issue and I was drawing a comparison between forced abortion and the forced Holocaust to show where your ealier comparison might hold more weight.

[pob406]

Is this the same woman that sang on tour with Benny Hinn? If so then why are we surprised about her planning to sing at a gay affirming church?






Then ask her why she is singing at a church that affirms this lifestyle.

[Aquila]

Dave...instead of getting side tracked in a thread over one thing said...PM me or start a new thread. Don't hijack the thread dude. lol

[DividedThigh]

If one can shop in a place that fuels the economy of a nation that forces abortion and not be accountable in any way for that nation's sins...how are we responsible for the individual choice a woman makes in a free society? If we are morally implicated in the individual choice a woman makes as an individual merely based upon our politic, are we not morally implicated in the forced abortion policies of China if we shop somewhere that fuels their economy adding to their wealth, prosperity, and influence in the world?

No woman is forced to abort by the government in America. In China they are. However, we say it's ok to help China by purchasing goods made in China?

My point is that we are only zeroing in on a very narrow aspect of social morality and behaving as though it is the pre-eminent issue we face as a people. But things are more complex than that. That's all I'm saying.

Consider this quesion,

What if this were the 1930s or 1940s, gas chambers are in full operation daily, and Walmart was marketing and selling products manufactured in Nazi Germany? Would it be OK to shop at Walmart? What would be the moral implications of a political party hailing Walmart as a sterling example of American business success?

Don't freak out over what I'm saying bro. Try to see the point I'm trying to make.

by the way bro i dont know what you mean as freakin out, but whatever it is it ain happenin here, i just calmly decided that talkin to you further about the subject was not productive, i am workin here you know, lol,dt:toofunny

[Aquila]

by the way bro i dont know what you mean as freakin out, but whatever it is it ain happenin here, i just calmly decided that talkin to you further about the subject was not productive, i am workin here you know, lol,dt:toofunny

Oh, sorry bro. I gotcha.

I'm not for abortion.

My point was to illustrate how complicated the issue really is and how our moralizing denounces one aspect of the issue but totally ignores another. China's forced abortion policy is far more henious than America's policy of choice. Yet we don't mind buying from a retailer that heavily contributes to China's economy. Like I asked in an earlier post...if this were the 1940s and the concentration camps, ovens, and gas chambers were in full swing...would it be OK to buy German at Walmart?

We ask if it's OK to vote Democratic because they're for choice...and then go shopping at Walmart to save a buck. It just doesn't seem right to me, especially if one says they believe that abortion is the pre-eminent moral issue of our day.

[DividedThigh]

Oh, sorry bro. I gotcha.

I'm not for abortion.

My point was to illustrate how complicated the issue really is and how our moralizing denounces one aspect of the issue but totally ignores another. China's forced abortion policy is far more henious than America's policy of choice. Yet we don't mind buying from a retailer that heavily contributes to China's economy. Like I asked in an earlier post...if this were the 1940s and the concentration camps, ovens, and gas chambers were in full swing...would it be OK to buy German at Walmart?

We ask if it's OK to vote Democratic because they're for choice...and then go shopping at Walmart to save a buck. It just doesn't seem right to me, especially if one says they believe that abortion is the pre-eminent moral issue of our day.
well i am glad we at least cleared that up, have a great day bro, dt

[ReformedDave]

Dave...instead of getting side tracked in a thread over one thing said...PM me or start a new thread. Don't hijack the thread dude. lol

Incoming!

[stmatthew]

Havn't read past the first page. My one and only question is, will CC preach the gospel to them and call them to repentance?

If not, then she will, as some have stated, just leave them feeling affirmed in their sinful lifestyle. The TRUE HOLY GHOST ALWAYS reproves sin. If sin is not reproved, then the Gospel Light did not shine into the darkness of the peoples hearts.

[Rev]

Havn't read past the first page. My one and only question is, will CC preach the gospel to them and call them to repentance?

If not, then she will, as some have stated, just leave them feeling affirmed in their sinful lifestyle. The TRUE HOLY GHOST ALWAYS reproves sin. If sin is not reproved, then the Gospel Light did not shine into the darkness of the peoples hearts.

Extremely well said!

:TulsaROCKS: :TulsaNO:

[Sandra]

http://www.cecewinans.com/index.php?content=tour

I don't see it on her scheldule.... I will be talking to her tomorrow ,I will find out.

[simplyme]

I just wonder if CeCe has an agent, AND if so, does her agent book gigs for her, and is she obligated to 'work' whatever is scheduled by this agent?
Maybe she has no choice. *shrug* as in contractual obligation(s).

Whatever the reason, I sense that the majority agree that this action is not in the best interest of calling sinners to repentance, as these mbrs of this alleged christian church have decided that GOD is okay(?) with their deviant sexual relationships, they don't see that they need repentance. The Bible I read says that this kind of deviance is against GOD's WORD!
Now, these homosexuals have fooled themselves into thinkin that they are as entitled as any other "church"(as if) to have BIGname christian gospel artists [never mind just CeCe] come and sing to them lovely songs of worship to the KING of KINGS [as affirmation] whose WORD they have thrown by the wayside by not obeying it! Hmmmm..kind of backwards stinkin thinkin, ain't it. There was a time I was lost and living in sin and KNEW that there was no way that I could call myself a christian and live like that., its common sense already.

[stmatthew]

I just wonder if CeCe has an agent, AND if so, does her agent book gigs for her, and is she obligated to 'work' whatever is scheduled by this agent?
Maybe she has no choice. *shrug* as in contractual obligation(s).

Whatever the reason, I sense that the majority agree that this action is not in the best interest of calling sinners to repentance, as these mbrs of this alleged christian church have decided that GOD is okay(?) with their deviant sexual relationships, they don't see that they need repentance. The Bible I read says that this kind of deviance is against GOD's WORD!
Now, these homosexuals have fooled themselves into thinkin that they are as entitled as any other "church"(as if) to have BIGname christian gospel artists [never mind just CeCe] come and sing to them lovely songs of worship to the KING of KINGS [as affirmation] whose WORD they have thrown by the wayside by not obeying it! Hmmmm..kind of backwards stinkin thinkin, ain't it. There was a time I was lost and living in sin and KNEW that there was no way that I could call myself a christian and live like that., its common sense already.

I believe CeCe does her bookings "inhouse". Of course, to me this is no different that quite a lot of you that have been proclaiming how much Holy Ghost you felt when listening to Lanny Wolfe.

[tv1a]

This is a condenscending question. I don't believe it's intentional, but condenscending nevertheless. I don't read anywhere in scripture where one has to tell a bunch of homosexuals they are going to hell in a handbasket. Maybe conviction will fall in the place without one word spoken. The Holy Ghost has a way of penetrating in ways spoken words from a mere mortal could never fathom.

Havn't read past the first page. My one and only question is, will CC preach the gospel to them and call them to repentance?

If not, then she will, as some have stated, just leave them feeling affirmed in their sinful lifestyle. The TRUE HOLY GHOST ALWAYS reproves sin. If sin is not reproved, then the Gospel Light did not shine into the darkness of the peoples hearts.

[crakjak]

First let me mention that I have appreciated your sincerity on this thread. I would agree that our society has been too leniant on sin, which only robbed people from experiencing true freedom in Christ Jesus. With that said, I don't feel like we should be apprehensive with evangelizing the gay/lesbian community by showing them the love of Christ. A person would not be considered a bigot or labled intolerant if they approached the sinner with love and wisdom. What examples of grace could the homosexual be afforded when they have been shown disgust, hatred and fear?

The reason why there haven't been more homosexuals saved and delivered in our churches was because people have been unable or unwilling to rise above their own prejudices against them. We have countless examples of drunkards, drug addicts, thieves, prostitutes and so on that were delivered and restored because those sins didn't have the stigma associated with homosexuality.

Well said, chosenby one! Well said! The church I attend has seven men who have been saved from the homosexual lifestyles, they are all seven living in accountability to pastor or other elders. Pastor has just completed a book, which is their stories. God is great and still at work in His creation.

[stmatthew]

Havn't read past the first page. My one and only question is, will CC preach the gospel to them and call them to repentance?

If not, then she will, as some have stated, just leave them feeling affirmed in their sinful lifestyle. The TRUE HOLY GHOST ALWAYS reproves sin. If sin is not reproved, then the Gospel Light did not shine into the darkness of the peoples hearts.

This is a condenscending question. I don't believe it's intentional, but condenscending nevertheless. I don't read anywhere in scripture where one has to tell a bunch of homosexuals they are going to hell in a handbasket. Maybe conviction will fall in the place without one word spoken. The Holy Ghost has a way of penetrating in ways spoken words from a mere mortal could never fathom.



So they can be saved outside of hearing the gospel?? My bible says that "faith comes by hearing", and goes on to ask the question "How can they hear without a preacher?". If there will be any saved, it will be because they "heard" the gospel, believed it, and obeyed it.

[lovinglife]

you sure she wasnt singing at one of her brothers churches...jk....

[tv1a]

Your assumption is that the homosexual hasn't heard the truth. If we are going to start naming the sins that will sin people to hell, start with the favorite sin of the church, gluttony. Fat people with little self control over the fork (which constitutes a good chunk of the pentecostal constituent) are going to fry just as much as the homosexual who can't say no to joe. Maybe Cece Winans should stop going to churches with fat people. Maybe she should preach against gluttony. If recent studies are any indication, there are more chubbies than homosexuals.

So they can be saved outside of hearing the gospel?? My bible says that "faith comes by hearing", and goes on to ask the question "How can they hear without a preacher?". If there will be any saved, it will be because they "heard" the gospel, believed it, and obeyed it.

[stmatthew]

Your assumption is that the homosexual hasn't heard the truth. If we are going to start naming the sins that will sin people to hell, start with the favorite sin of the church, gluttony. Fat people with little self control over the fork (which constitutes a good chunk of the pentecostal constituent) are going to fry just as much as the homosexual who can't say no to joe. Maybe Cece Winans should stop going to churches with fat people. Maybe she should preach against gluttony. If recent studies are any indication, there are more chubbies than homosexuals.


Obviously, they have not heard with ears of faith, or they would have believed and repented of their evil ways.

You do understand that in your effort to discredit you seem to be defending the homosexual lifestyle.

I did not insinuate that she should not go to the homo church, but that if all she does is go and sing them happy, then she has done a disservice to them.

[tv1a]

I'm not defending homosexuality. I'm exposing the misplaced priority of acceptable sins.

There is no more diservice in ministering in a homosexual church than in a nursing home.

Jesus used the same concept when he went to the Gaderenes. A jew wasn't even to be in the vicinity of the biblical Bay of Pigs, yet he went into the belly of abomination. He didn't berate all pig farmers are going to hell. Repent ye hog callers or fire from heaven wil fall on you. He just went there, did his thing, then left. This could be the case where Cece Winans would minister to at least one person. If that makes me pro homo, so be it. I've been accused worse.

Obviously, they have not heard with ears of faith, or they would have believed and repented of their evil ways.

You do understand that in your effort to discredit you seem to be defending the homosexual lifestyle.

I did not insinuate that she should not go to the homo church, but that if all she does is go and sing them happy, then she has done a disservice to them.

[stmatthew]

I'm not defending homosexuality. I'm exposing the misplaced priority of acceptable sins.

There is no more diservice in ministering in a homosexual church than in a nursing home.

Jesus used the same concept when he went to the Gaderenes. A jew wasn't even to be in the vicinity of the biblical Bay of Pigs, yet he went into the belly of abomination. He didn't berate all pig farmers are going to hell. Repent ye hog callers or fire from heaven wil fall on you. He just went there, did his thing, then left. This could be the case where Cece Winans would minister to at least one person. If that makes me pro homo, so be it. I've been accused worse.

"Go and sin no more" was the message of Jesus to sinners. Agree or disagree?

[ReformedDave]

I'm not defending homosexuality. I'm exposing the misplaced priority of acceptable sins.

There is no more diservice in ministering in a homosexual church than in a nursing home.

Jesus used the same concept when he went to the Gaderenes. A jew wasn't even to be in the vicinity of the biblical Bay of Pigs, yet he went into the belly of abomination. He didn't berate all pig farmers are going to hell. Repent ye hog callers or fire from heaven wil fall on you. He just went there, did his thing, then left. This could be the case where Cece Winans would minister to at least one person. If that makes me pro homo, so be it. I've been accused worse.

The logic is amazing. First of all this is a homosexual church and most rest homes I know of are not homosexual. Huge difference. For the most part these people are looking for affirmation and not regeneration. Is she 'ministering' and calling them to forgo their ways.....I bet she won't. If she does it will surprise them too.

Jesus wasn't hold services with the pig farmers and not purporting to affirm them. BTW, He wiped out their farms.....Now that's revival!

[hartmann]

homos are every where!!!!! I wish they would get back in the closet, hu Matt!! lol

remember our conversation with BRANDON? LOL

[TRFrance]

One thing that is clear is that there's a serious deficiency of discernment among many professing believers today.

Truly breathtaking.

[Brother Price]

Should we count homosexuals as lost, and just leave them alone? If so, then we should also count the adulterer and fornicator just as lost for violating the proper role of sex as God intended outside the covenant of marriage. One sin is not greater than the other.

[Sister Alvear]

While one sin may not be greater than another sin we must be careful that we hate what God hates and love what He loves...while God hates sin he loves the sinner...yet a person that knows what God hates and remains condoning what God hates and fellowshipping what God hates is on dangerous territory.

[simplyme]

While one sin may not be greater than another sin we must be careful that we hate what God hates and love what He loves...while God hates sin he loves the sinner...yet a person that knows what God hates and remains condoning what God hates and fellowshipping what God hates is on dangerous territory.
Absolutely there is no excuse when someone KNOWS but IGNOREs GODs WORD., or worse, tries to justify their actions, as if GOD will take kindly to being mocked.

[ReformedDave]

Should we count homosexuals as lost, and just leave them alone? If so, then we should also count the adulterer and fornicator just as lost for violating the proper role of sex as God intended outside the covenant of marriage. One sin is not greater than the other.

This is not a 'mission field'. These folks think that they are Christians already. This is for entertainment. Do you REALLY thing CeCe is going to tell them that they are lost?

[hartmann]

all to many treat it as a sickness and not as sin, believing God for their healing. That is why so many times they will even use them in positions in a church. Also if they are extremely talented, well, we are believing for their deliverance, so often said.

this is such a sad twisted way to thinking, Sin is sin, talented or not IMO.

[tv1a]

I would use a homosexual before I would use a gossiper anyday of the week. The church is generally homophobic. They think homosexuality is an abomination while on the pulpit sits a preacher of Ehud like porportions. A homosexual doesn't do near as much damage as a gossiping pentecostal. God looks at sin the same way, just because one does a little shockamoo doen't mean their sin is any worse than homosexuality.

Contrary to popular belief Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't destroyed because of homosexual tendancies. They were destroyed because they did not take care of the children and the poor. Exekiel 16:49



all to many treat it as a sickness and not as sin, believing God for their healing. That is why so many times they will even use them in positions in a church. Also if they are extremely talented, well, we are believing for their deliverance, so often said.

this is such a sad twisted way to thinking, Sin is sin, talented or not IMO.

[ReformedDave]

I would use a homosexual before I would use a gossiper anyday of the week. The church is generally homophobic. They think homosexuality is an abomination while on the pulpit sits a preacher of Ehud like porportions. A homosexual doesn't do near as much damage as a gossiping pentecostal. God looks at sin the same way, just because one does a little shockamoo doen't mean their sin is any worse than homosexuality.

Contrary to popular belief Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't destroyed because of homosexual tendancies. They were destroyed because they did not take care of the children and the poor. Exekiel 16:49

First of all, it does appear that God judges some sins worse than others. Homosexuality is a curse from God that He turns unrepentant man over to. All transgressions against God are sin but not all sins are created equal.

You said "I would use a homosexual before I would use a gossiper anyday of the week". What scripture guideline do you have for this? You don't think homosexuality is an abomination?

[TRFrance]

I would use a homosexual before I would use a gossiper anyday of the week. The church is generally homophobic.

The the very concept of someone being a "Christian homosexual" in the body of Christ is innately self-contradictory.

A man can no more be a Christian homosexual than he can be a Christian child molester.

[stmatthew]

I would use a homosexual before I would use a gossiper anyday of the week. The church is generally homophobic. They think homosexuality is an abomination while on the pulpit sits a preacher of Ehud like porportions. A homosexual doesn't do near as much damage as a gossiping pentecostal. God looks at sin the same way, just because one does a little shockamoo doen't mean their sin is any worse than homosexuality.

Contrary to popular belief Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't destroyed because of homosexual tendancies. They were destroyed because they did not take care of the children and the poor. Exekiel 16:49


This is the most ignorant statement I have read in a while. In saying this, YOU are placing one sin as better than another, when NO sin is right in Gods eye's.

[stmatthew]

homos are every where!!!!! I wish they would get back in the closet, hu Matt!! lol

remember our conversation with BRANDON? LOL

I remember it very well! I can't believe anyone would condone open sin, can you??

[tv1a]

The word gossip is also mentioned in the passage regarding homosexual behavior.

Side question, correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears as if you believe once a homosexual always a homosexual.
Rom 1:18-32
18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves.
19 For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts.
20 From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.
21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became utter fools instead.
23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people, or birds and animals and snakes.
24 So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies.
25 Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen.
26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.
27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.
28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.
29 Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip.
30 They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents.
31 They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving.
32 They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.
NLT


First of all, it does appear that God judges some sins worse than others. Homosexuality is a curse from God that He turns unrepentant man over to. All transgressions against God are sin but not all sins are created equal.

You said "I would use a homosexual before I would use a gossiper anyday of the week". What scripture guideline do you have for this? You don't think homosexuality is an abomination?

[tv1a]

Can one be a christian gossiper? Can one be a christian liar, theif, etc.? Those are more prevelant in the church than christian homosexuals.

It easy to jump on the bandwagon of sins we don't have to deal with. Any destructive behavior needs to be dealt with. There are some sins which are acceptable to Christians.

We have people in the pews and in the pulpits who don't take care of their bodies, in direct violation of scripture. Those who gossip and those who can't say no when their bellies are full are going to meet the same fate as the homosexual.

Homosexuality is sin. So is gossip. So is causing division. So is undermining leadership (wpf). So is legalism.

Would Cece Winans have an obligation to preach against gossip if she sings at a church for tale bearers?

Would she have an obligation to preach against gluttony if she sings at a church full people who need a wide angle lens to get into the picture?

It is condesending and insulting to suggest someone preach against a certain sin, but not hold the to the same standards for other blatent sins.

The the very concept of someone being a "Christian homosexual" in the body of Christ is innately self-contradictory.

A man can no more be a Christian homosexual than he can be a Christian child molester.

[Sister Alvear]

tv1a....do you pastor a church?

[Prodigal]

Homosexuality is a curse from God that He turns unrepentant man over to.

Can you expand on this? What exactly does it mean when someone is cursed? What are the conditions in which god would curse someone with homosexuality? How do you remove the curse? Can it come back?
Does god curse someone that is Hindu? Or Muslim? Are celibate homosexuals that are christian sort of cursed?

Homosexuals exist in every culture. Does someone that doesn't even believe in god get cursed by someone they don't even believe exists? Homosexual behavior has been observed in over 1500 species of animals.....are they cursed too?

[ReformedDave]

The word gossip is also mentioned in the passage regarding homosexual behavior.

Side question, correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears as if you believe once a homosexual always a homosexual.

In a passage. Not THE only passage. Where do you get the idea that I think a homosexual cannot be regenerated?

[ReformedDave]

Can you expand on this? What exactly does it mean when someone is cursed? What are the conditions in which god would curse someone with homosexuality? How do you remove the curse? Can it come back?
Does god curse someone that is Hindu? Or Muslim? Are celibate homosexuals that are christian sort of cursed?

Homosexuals exist in every culture. Does someone that doesn't even believe in god get cursed by someone they don't even believe exists? Homosexual behavior has been observed in over 1500 species of animals.....are they cursed too?

In the passage that was quoted, Romans 1, God turned unrepentant man over to homosexual activity.

Romans 1:18-32- "18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them."

Here we see that all men know God. There are no true atheists. All men are idol builders and since they refuse to acknowledge Him He takes His restraining hand away and turns them over to perverseness.

I should have not used the word 'curse' in that manor. But God turns people over to this type of thing and it is in effect a curse.

BTW, all of mankind and all of the earth, including Fido, is under the curse of sin.

[ReformedDave]

Can one be a christian gossiper? Can one be a christian liar, theif, etc.? Those are more prevelant in the church than christian homosexuals.

It easy to jump on the bandwagon of sins we don't have to deal with. Any destructive behavior needs to be dealt with. There are some sins which are acceptable to Christians.

We have people in the pews and in the pulpits who don't take care of their bodies, in direct violation of scripture. Those who gossip and those who can't say no when their bellies are full are going to meet the same fate as the homosexual.

Homosexuality is sin. So is gossip. So is causing division. So is undermining leadership (wpf). So is legalism.

Would Cece Winans have an obligation to preach against gossip if she sings at a church for tale bearers?

Would she have an obligation to preach against gluttony if she sings at a church full people who need a wide angle lens to get into the picture?

It is condesending and insulting to suggest someone preach against a certain sin, but not hold the to the same standards for other blatent sins.

If you were asked to speak at this church would you speak out against their gay affirming lifestyle?

[TRFrance]

Can one be a christian gossiper? Can one be a christian liar, theif, etc.? Those are more prevelant in the church than christian homosexuals.

It easy to jump on the bandwagon of sins we don't have to deal with. Any destructive behavior needs to be dealt with. There are some sins which are acceptable to Christians.

We have people in the pews and in the pulpits who don't take care of their bodies, in direct violation of scripture. Those who gossip and those who can't say no when their bellies are full are going to meet the same fate as the homosexual.

Homosexuality is sin. So is gossip. So is causing division. So is undermining leadership (wpf). So is legalism.

Would Cece Winans have an obligation to preach against gossip if she sings at a church for tale bearers?

Would she have an obligation to preach against gluttony if she sings at a church full people who need a wide angle lens to get into the picture?

It is condesending and insulting to suggest someone preach against a certain sin, but not hold the to the same standards for other blatant sins.
Good grief.
Your line of reasoning there does not make a whole lot of sense.

Yes, gluttony is sin. Yes, gossiping is sin, etc. But...

There are no churches that have been founded for the purpose of promoting gluttony, or gossiping, or lying, or thievery, etc. But "gay-accepting" churches have been founded to promote acceptance of homosexuality. These churches by their very existence, are in denial of, and rebellion against, the word of God!

Why is it so hard for you to see the very clear distinction there?

---

If professing Christians really can't see how "gay churches" are related to the larger "gay movement" affecting our society, and how "gay churches" are being used by the devil to undermine God's design of family and sexuality, then in my mind, these believers have serious issues concerning spiritual perception, discernment, and judgment. No wonder so many churches are powerless today.

[tv1a]

I would preach what God wanted me to preach. Nothing more, nothing less.

I would use the same principle if I visited a church full of blue denim whales. If God wanted me to speak about unecessary obesity, he would tell me.

Homosexuality is easy to preach against. As rksmith how hard it is to preach against common issue the church faces, like gossip, and destructive behavior of saints. Although he likes to blame on the music, in reality, it's a leadership problem.

Anyone can preach against homosexuality. Homos in the church are far fewer in number than the backbiters, gossipers, and liars in the church. Let's deal with the issues facing the church before we deal with no more than 2% of the US population.

If you were asked to speak at this church would you speak out against their gay affirming lifestyle?

[CC1]

My question is this; When the pastor of this church introduces CeCe is he going to snap his fingers, fling his arm, and say "You GO Girl!!!!"

LOL!!!!! Arghhhhh!!!!!!

[tv1a]

See comments in the Atlanta Bishop/Hoover thread about the misconception of that church.

My question is this; When the pastor of this church introduces CeCe is he going to snap his fingers, fling his arm, and say "You GO Girl!!!!"

LOL!!!!! Arghhhhh!!!!!!

[MissBrattified]

1. Victory is not a "homosexual church". It is a very large (several thousand) church that does not turn away nor degrade people that struggle in life. It is basically a baptist church and many members are filled with the Holy Ghost.


Is there a church that "turns away" homosexuals? I hope not....

However, I think there's a difference between allowing anyone to come into the church (which is how it should be), and allowing believers who have returned to sin to remain when unrepentant.

[ReformedDave]

I would preach what God wanted me to preach. Nothing more, nothing less.

I would use the same principle if I visited a church full of blue denim whales. If God wanted me to speak about unecessary obesity, he would tell me.

Homosexuality is easy to preach against. As rksmith how hard it is to preach against common issue the church faces, like gossip, and destructive behavior of saints. Although he likes to blame on the music, in reality, it's a leadership problem.

Anyone can preach against homosexuality. Homos in the church are far fewer in number than the backbiters, gossipers, and liars in the church. Let's deal with the issues facing the church before we deal with no more than 2% of the US population.

Again you refuse to answer direct questions directly. If this is a gay affirming church would you preach against homosexuality? You are trying to side step.

My pastor peaches about whatever is in the Scripture including gossip and sodomy.

God 'tells' you what to preach about? How do you know it's God?

[ReformedDave]

See comments in the Atlanta Bishop/Hoover thread about the misconception of that church.

I believe this church might be part of the United Church of Christ. Here's the official position on the matter.


http://www.ucc.org/lgbt/

[CC1]

I think the main point many are trying to make is that there is a difference in a loving, caring church opening its arms to minister to gay people with the transforming power and gospel of Jesus Christ and a "Gay Affirming" church that accepts homosexuals "as they are"

The first is a godly church and the second has lost it's way and is condoning sin.

[Praxeas]

I think the main point many are trying to make is that there is a difference in a loving, caring church opening its arms to minister to gay people with the transforming power and gospel of Jesus Christ and a "Gay Affirming" church that accepts homosexuals "as they are"

The first is a godly church and the second has lost it's way and is condoning sin.
Right, these churches are not turning away gays....but they are also not telling them the truth that they need to repent of that lifestyle

[GodsBabyGirl]

You know, this is just a dumb question if you think about it.

How do you reach the lost?

You know, Sis, that was one of the wisest responses to this fear of ministering to 'gays.'

Let me just say...

I could see if CeCe was going to join the praise and worship team at Victory or something. I lived right down the street from Victory when I lived in GA.

I inadvertantly had my daughter go to the church with a friend. The things my daughter told me she saw when she came back appalled me.

But the point is, HOW ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH WILL THE HOMOSEXUAL GET SAVED OR DELIVERED IF THE CHURCH IS TOO FREAKIN' SCARED TO MINISTER TO THEM?

You mean to tell me that gays and lesbians aren't worthy to experience the presence of God?

The redeeming power of God? The anointing that destroys the yoke of perversion off their lives?

I do believe this is why homosexuals and lesbians have congregations.

I mean if they thought they were all right, they wouldn't acknowledge a need for redemption or salvation, right?

Yes, herego, their gospel is a little perverted. Their doctrine is off.

But what we must look at is the fact that they at least WANT to go to church. They want to know that Jesus loves them.

This is what we ALL want.

Now if a homosexual cannot come to church and hear the Word of God that can save their soul...

If a lesbian cannot experience an encounter with God while under the anointing at church...

Where can they go?

Leave CeCe alone. I believe the woman is led by the Holy Ghost, and am sure she prayed about going there before she agreed to minister there.

[NewWine]

True we are to take care of our bodies and the scripture is very clear saying "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost..." I Corinthians 6:19. Those who can't say "no when their bellies are full"; need to learn some self control; not have a homosexual demon cast out of them.

Yes, Christians at times are gossipers, lie, cheat, steal, and do other sinful acts. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus" Romans 3:23-26

As such we can fall to our knees, repent of our sins, and find forgiveness. However, homosexuality is not the same. A homosexual cannot simply fall to their knees as forgiveness and the blood of Christ wash over them. They need the laying on of hands and that homosexual demon cast out of them. I have laid hands on people and cast demons out of them, in particular homosexual. And I can assure you that their weight was not the issue, it was those demons that had them bound. So you cannot place a shortcoming such as gossiping on the same level as demonic oppression.

Can one be a christian gossiper? Can one be a christian liar, theif, etc.? Those are more prevelant in the church than christian homosexuals.

It easy to jump on the bandwagon of sins we don't have to deal with. Any destructive behavior needs to be dealt with. There are some sins which are acceptable to Christians.

We have people in the pews and in the pulpits who don't take care of their bodies, in direct violation of scripture. Those who gossip and those who can't say no when their bellies are full are going to meet the same fate as the homosexual.

Homosexuality is sin. So is gossip. So is causing division. So is undermining leadership (wpf). So is legalism.

Would Cece Winans have an obligation to preach against gossip if she sings at a church for tale bearers?

Would she have an obligation to preach against gluttony if she sings at a church full people who need a wide angle lens to get into the picture?

It is condesending and insulting to suggest someone preach against a certain sin, but not hold the to the same standards for other blatent sins.

[GodsBabyGirl]

New Wine said:

A homosexual cannot simply fall to their knees as forgiveness and the blood of Christ wash over them. They need the laying on of hands and that homosexual demon cast out of them. I have laid hands on people and cast demons out of them, in particular homosexual. And I can assure you that their weight was not the issue, it was those demons that had them bound. So you cannot place a shortcoming such as gossiping on the same level as demonic oppression.

My response:

Not trying to be funny...but when you cast out that homosexual demon, did that person maintain their deliverance?

Are they still saved and walking with God today? Were there any relapses into that lifestyle that you know of?

Just curious...

[ReformedDave]

You know, Sis, that was one of the wisest responses to this fear of ministering to 'gays.'

Let me just say...

I could see if CeCe was going to join the praise and worship team at Victory or something. I lived right down the street from Victory when I lived in GA.

I inadvertantly had my daughter go to the church with a friend. The things my daughter told me she saw when she came back appalled me.

But the point is, HOW ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH WILL THE HOMOSEXUAL GET SAVED OR DELIVERED IF THE CHURCH IS TOO FREAKIN' SCARED TO MINISTER TO THEM?

You mean to tell me that gays and lesbians aren't worthy to experience the presence of God?

The redeeming power of God? The anointing that destroys the yoke of perversion off their lives?

I do believe this is why homosexuals and lesbians have congregations.

I mean if they thought they were all right, they wouldn't acknowledge a need for redemption or salvation, right?

Yes, herego, their gospel is a little perverted. Their doctrine is off.

But what we must look at is the fact that they at least WANT to go to church. They want to know that Jesus loves them.

This is what we ALL want.

Now if a homosexual cannot come to church and hear the Word of God that can save their soul...

If a lesbian cannot experience an encounter with God while under the anointing at church...

Where can they go?

Leave CeCe alone. I believe the woman is led by the Holy Ghost, and am sure she prayed about going there before she agreed to minister there.

Gays are worshiping a god created in their own image. They do NOT want the God of the Bible. That is CLEAR. They want acceptance and not repentance.

Practicing gays and lesbians and not WORTHY of the presence of God. What makes them worthy?

If a homosexual comes to Christ with a realization that he is a sinner deserves death and hell and his only hope is in Christ he can be changed....but not until then.

[NewWine]

I would use a homosexual before I would use a gossiper anyday of the week. The church is generally homophobic. They think homosexuality is an abomination while on the pulpit sits a preacher of Ehud like porportions. A homosexual doesn't do near as much damage as a gossiping pentecostal. God looks at sin the same way, just because one does a little shockamoo doen't mean their sin is any worse than homosexuality.

Contrary to popular belief Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't destroyed because of homosexual tendancies. They were destroyed because they did not take care of the children and the poor. Exekiel 16:49

I would use a homosexual before I would use a gossiper anyday of the week. The church is generally homophobic.

We know that the first Christians were those in the book of Acts. And we know that those in the book of Acts that were called Christians were those that believed in baptism (in the Name of Jesus Christ) and receiving the Holy Ghost (evidence of speaking in other tongues). If you line up with the book of Acts than according to the word of God you are a Christian. Therefore, having said that I will say this.

No Christian can find sin acceptable, if they do then they should hit their knees and get their heart right with the Lord. Sin is sin, but not all sin is termed an "abomination". Homosexuality is a sin just as various other things are, however, Leviticus 18:22 (ref: Romans 1:24) discusses homosexuality and states "it is abomination". Thus, this ungodly spirit of homosexuality is not only a sin, but an abomination.

Your statement is spiritually troubling. Because NO CHRISTIAN that is FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST would ever make such a statement. For if one has been grafted into the body of Christ, they would never suggest or state in any way that they would desire to use demons. "The church is generally homophobic. They think homosexuality is an abomination...." I say unto you THE CHURCH IS RIGHT...HOMOSEXUALITY IS AN ABOMINATION according to the Word of God.

while on the pulpit sits a preacher of Ehud like porportions.
Judges 3:12-31
We find in verse 12 the Israelites have done evil in the sight of the Lord and the Lord has brought the Moabites against them, by strengthening Eglon the Moabite king. The children of Israel cried out unto the Lord and God sent them a Benjamite, Ehud. Ehud made a dagger which he concealed according to scripture and went before Eglon. While alone with Eglon, Ehud said unto Eglon verse 20 "I have a message from God unto thee" and he killed Eglon with the dagger. Further down in verse 27 Eglon blew the trumpet in the mountain of Ephraim and says unto the Israelites "Follow after me for the Lord hath delivered your enemies the Moabites into your hand". The Israelites go on to slay the Moabites. You are mistaken in you statement; perhaps you meant to say "Eglon"; because a preacher of "Ehud like proportions" is not a negative thing.

[Hoovie]

Gays are worshiping a god created in their own image. They do NOT want the God of the Bible. That is CLEAR. They want acceptance and not repentance.

Practicing gays and lesbians and not WORTHY of the presence of God. What makes them worthy?

If a homosexual comes to Christ with a realization that he is a sinner deserves death and hell and his only hope is in Christ he can be changed....but not until then.

True. And I am sure you would agree the same is true for the NON homosexual.

It is the inability to acknowlege sin and accept the only anadote that damns the soul.

If one argues homosexuality (or any other sin) is NOT sin, they cannot be forgiven.

[GodsBabyGirl]

New Wine said:

A homosexual cannot simply fall to their knees as forgiveness and the blood of Christ wash over them. They need the laying on of hands and that homosexual demon cast out of them. I have laid hands on people and cast demons out of them, in particular homosexual. And I can assure you that their weight was not the issue, it was those demons that had them bound. So you cannot place a shortcoming such as gossiping on the same level as demonic oppression.

WOW!

So now the blood of Jesus Christ cannot wash homosexuality away???

Now if someone doesn't bow to your power to cast out their devil then they cannot experience God move in their lives????

It is this type of classification of sin that renders many of folks in the Body of Christ ineffective to minister to those bound by homosexuality or lesbianism.

This innate fear that folks have of homosexuals and lesbians.

Those who got a problem with Cece singing at Victory...

"OhmyGod, like we cannot be around homos because that spirit is like too strong so we cannot let them in the church, minister to them, and if they do come in our church, they better like get ready for me to call them names....

Because I don't believe in the power of the Blood to redeem them.

So now we got to keep them outta our churches and make sure they don't ever experience the power of God. Because if they do God just may show me out and deliver and save them and I would have to stand behind my precious pulpit and apologize to all the homos I kept from the altar and carded them off from the wanting to be in the presence of God with my utter prejudice and hatred...."

Folks, we as the church need to wise up. He that winneth souls is WISE.

[ReformedDave]

True. And I am sure you would agree the same is true for the NON homosexual.

It is the inability to acknowlege sin and accept the only anadote that damns the soul.

If one argues homosexuality (or any other sin) is NOT sin, they cannot be forgiven.

I would agree. But one HAS to realize their absolute unworthiness and that only He is worthy.....hey you said that already.

[ReformedDave]

This innate fear that folks have of homosexuals and lesbians.

Those who got a problem with Cece singing at Victory...


I have no fear of gays. I have several friends that are homosexual. What I do fear is the ONE Who can destroy not only my body but also my soul. What he deems as an abomination I have no right to contradict.

Do you think Cece is going to tell anybody at this church that they need to leave their lifestyle???????

[GodsBabyGirl]

They want acceptance and not repentance.

This may be the case for some, I won't argue with that. But I do not believe that is the case with them all. That is a broad generalization, a stereotype...

Practicing gays and lesbians and not WORTHY of the presence of God. What makes them worthy?

How can you who needs the Blood of Jesus as we all do come to the conclusion of WHO is worthy of the presence of God and who isn't?????

If a homosexual comes to Christ with a realization that he is a sinner deserves death and hell and his only hope is in Christ he can be changed....but not until then.

I don't argue with the fact that. I have always maintained that ALL need to come the realization that none of us are what you call 'worthy' of God's presence or salvation.

What Apostolics are the only ones worthy? Cuz we got the doctrine down right. We don't wear this or do that. We have standards and blah, blah, blah....

So because we do all this now we are 'worthy?'

That mindset is PRIDE. And pride always come before a fall.

Sir, NONE of us are worthy. NONE of us will be saved if we don't come to the realization that we need Jesus. Period.

I am not attacking you. Please undertand that. It's just that there are countless number of souls who are bound by homosexuality and lesbianism who are going to split hell wide open because preachers throw names and stones at them instead of effectively ministering to them.

Sad...

[GodsBabyGirl]

I have no fear of gays. I have several friends that are homosexual. What I do fear is the ONE Who can destroy not only my body but also my soul. What he deems as an abomination I have no right to contradict.

Do you think Cece is going to tell anybody at this church that they need to leave their lifestyle???????

I believe CeCe will be led by the Holy Ghost....she always is....

[ReformedDave]

I believe CeCe will be led by the Holy Ghost....she always is....

I'll bet she doesn't say a word. In not doing so she will be affirming them.....it will be good entertainment at best.

[NewWine]

Contrary to popular belief Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't destroyed because of homosexual tendancies. They were destroyed because they did not take care of the children and the poor. Exekiel 16:49

Ezekiel 16: 49 tv1a you conviently left out the preceding verses and those that follow. Sodom and Gomorrah was not destroyed simply because of not taking care of children and the poor as you have emphatically stated. Do not twist the scripture and take it out of context.

Ezekiel 16:35-59 The Lord is speaking to the Israelites as they are being punished for their sins. The Lord tells them in verse 36 "Thus saith the Lord God; Because they filthiness was poured out, and they nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with they lovers, and with all the idols of they abominations, and by the blood of they children, which thou didst give unto me;" The Lord goes on to tell them that he will take their jewels from them and leave them naked and bare. Now in verse 46 Sodom is mentioned "that dwelleth at thy right hand, is Sodom and her daughters". verse 47-50 "Yet hast thou not walked after their ways, nor done after their abominations: but, as if that were a very little thing, thous wast corrupted more than they in all they ways. As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister had not done, she nor her daughters, as thou has done, thou and thy daughters. Behold, this was the iniquity of they sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good”. From here the Lord continues to talk about Sodom and the abominations that were committed.

What else does the bible say about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?

Sodom is first discussed in the 18th chapter. Abraham, the Lord, and the two angels were conversing. The Lord had already sent the angels to Sodom.

Genesis 18:20 “And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know”

Abraham asks of the Lord
Genesis 18:23 “And Abraham drew near, and said Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?”

God destroyed those that were wicked in Sodom. As you continue to read the 18th chapter you find the “men” had already started toward Sodom, in the Genesis 19:1 we find that those men are the two angels. Lot met them, took them into his house, and the house was surrounded by Sodomites.

Genesis 19:5,7-8 “And they called unto Lot; and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them” Lot goes out and says “And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof” The men in the street wanted the angels and tried to break the door to get to them, which lead to them being struck with blindness, that they may not find the door.

Some have tried to argue these scriptures refer to customs, which is not the case. However, it is clear in the scriptures that the statement “that we may know them” was not referring to know the two angels in a friendly manner. This is proven by what Lot says “do not so wickedly” and “I have two daughters which have not known man”. “Known man” refers to having been with a man e.g. to have sex. Lot offered up his daughters because they were virgins, and those in the streets wanted the two angels for sexual immorality. Also take note of Lot’s sons in laws.
The daughters of Lot were married yet they had never known a man. When you are married you consummate your marriage; which is done by a husband and wife coming to know each other. Further down in the chapter Lot goes out to his son in laws to warn them of the coming destruction.

Genesis 19:14 “And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.”
Lot was mocked by his sons in law for they were homosexuals; which is why the daughters of Lot didn’t know their husbands. They were also destroyed in Sodom.

Genesis 19:15 “And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city”.

Only Lot, his wife, and daughters were saved because they were righteous.

2 Peter 2:6-8 “And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds; )”

The scripture is clear that Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed due to their wickedness and homosexuality was apart of that wickedness.
Not only were Sodom and Gomorrha destroyed

Jude verse 7-8 “Even Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion and speak evil of dignities”.

Tv1a: Your stance that Sodom and Gomorrha wasn't destroyed because of homosexuality is a non-biblical stance. Furthermore, it is a false doctrine that God is not pleased with. There are those in this world that support and condone homosexuality and proclaim to be churches. Some of them call themselves Liberated Christians.

[GodsBabyGirl]

I'll bet she doesn't say a word. In not doing so she will be affirming them.....it will be good entertainment at best.

I have seen her minister before....she is anointed by God. And God will use her. That is my prayer.

Maybe instead of taking bets on what she will or won't do, why not pray she is courageous enough and operating under such a strong power of God that she will....

Just my take....

[ReformedDave]

I have seen her minister before....she is anointed by God. And God will use her. That is my prayer.

Maybe instead of taking bets on what she will or won't do, why not pray she is courageous enough and operating under such a strong power of God that she will....

Just my take....

Have you ever seen her in a room full of homosexual affirming people speak out against that sin by name?

[tv1a]

So what's your point? The apostle Paul refers to legalism as witchcraft. Plenty of devils on the loose with legalism. I've seen the demons of legalism first hand. Gossip has its roots in the spirit of Jezebel. Gossip is not based in flesh, but a spirit whose sole intention is to destroy. Gossip is on the same level as homosexuality in Romans 1.

Jesus equated gluttoney as one of the unacceptable behaviors happening in Noah's time. It was one of the reasons listed that God sent the flood. So if one wants to categorize sin, or worse yet blame the musicians for the inability of the pastor to control his congregation, so be it.

True we are to take care of our bodies and the scripture is very clear saying "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost..." I Corinthians 6:19. Those who can't say "no when their bellies are full"; need to learn some self control; not have a homosexual demon cast out of them.

Yes, Christians at times are gossipers, lie, cheat, steal, and do other sinful acts. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus" Romans 3:23-26

As such we can fall to our knees, repent of our sins, and find forgiveness. However, homosexuality is not the same. A homosexual cannot simply fall to their knees as forgiveness and the blood of Christ wash over them. They need the laying on of hands and that homosexual demon cast out of them. I have laid hands on people and cast demons out of them, in particular homosexual. And I can assure you that their weight was not the issue, it was those demons that had them bound. So you cannot place a shortcoming such as gossiping on the same level as demonic oppression.

[ReformedDave]

So what's your point? The apostle Paul refers to legalism as witchcraft. Plenty of devils on the loose with legalism. I've seen the demons of legalism first hand. Gossip has its roots in the spirit of Jezebel. Gossip is not based in flesh, but a spirit whose sole intention is to destroy. Gossip is on the same level as homosexuality in Romans 1.

Jesus equated gluttoney as one of the unacceptable behaviors happening in Noah's time. It was one of the reasons listed that God sent the flood. So if one wants to categorize sin, or worse yet blame the musicians for the inability of the pastor to control his congregation, so be it.

Forgotten the title of this thread?

[tv1a]

Correction noted on the ehud thing... Typing quick without proof reading does that to a person.

I have stated numerous times homsexuality is a sin. My point is there are many who think they know what a person should preach when put in a supposed situation like Cece Winans is put in. They get a cheap thrill at telling people they should preach against homosexuality while at the same time they can't control the urchins running wild in their church.

I would use a homosexual before I would use a gossiper anyday of the week. The church is generally homophobic.

We know that the first Christians were those in the book of Acts. And we know that those in the book of Acts that were called Christians were those that believed in baptism (in the Name of Jesus Christ) and receiving the Holy Ghost (evidence of speaking in other tongues). If you line up with the book of Acts than according to the word of God you are a Christian. Therefore, having said that I will say this.

No Christian can find sin acceptable, if they do then they should hit their knees and get their heart right with the Lord. Sin is sin, but not all sin is termed an "abomination". Homosexuality is a sin just as various other things are, however, Leviticus 18:22 (ref: Romans 1:24) discusses homosexuality and states "it is abomination". Thus, this ungodly spirit of homosexuality is not only a sin, but an abomination.

Your statement is spiritually troubling. Because NO CHRISTIAN that is FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST would ever make such a statement. For if one has been grafted into the body of Christ, they would never suggest or state in any way that they would desire to use demons. "The church is generally homophobic. They think homosexuality is an abomination...." I say unto you THE CHURCH IS RIGHT...HOMOSEXUALITY IS AN ABOMINATION according to the Word of God.

while on the pulpit sits a preacher of Ehud like porportions.
Judges 3:12-31
We find in verse 12 the Israelites have done evil in the sight of the Lord and the Lord has brought the Moabites against them, by strengthening Eglon the Moabite king. The children of Israel cried out unto the Lord and God sent them a Benjamite, Ehud. Ehud made a dagger which he concealed according to scripture and went before Eglon. While alone with Eglon, Ehud said unto Eglon verse 20 "I have a message from God unto thee" and he killed Eglon with the dagger. Further down in verse 27 Eglon blew the trumpet in the mountain of Ephraim and says unto the Israelites "Follow after me for the Lord hath delivered your enemies the Moabites into your hand". The Israelites go on to slay the Moabites. You are mistaken in you statement; perhaps you meant to say "Eglon"; because a preacher of "Ehud like proportions" is not a negative thing.

[tv1a]

It was suggested gossip was a lesser sin. I just pointed out it was often mentioned in scripture with as much intensitiy as homosexuality. Gossip is mentioned more in the Bible than homosexuality.

Forgotten the title of this thread?

[NewWine]

New Wine said:

A homosexual cannot simply fall to their knees as forgiveness and the blood of Christ wash over them. They need the laying on of hands and that homosexual demon cast out of them. I have laid hands on people and cast demons out of them, in particular homosexual. And I can assure you that their weight was not the issue, it was those demons that had them bound. So you cannot place a shortcoming such as gossiping on the same level as demonic oppression.

WOW!

So now the blood of Jesus Christ cannot wash homosexuality away???

Now if someone doesn't bow to your power to cast out their devil then they cannot experience God move in their lives????

It is this type of classification of sin that renders many of folks in the Body of Christ ineffective to minister to those bound by homosexuality or lesbianism.

This innate fear that folks have of homosexuals and lesbians.

Those who got a problem with Cece singing at Victory...

"OhmyGod, like we cannot be around homos because that spirit is like too strong so we cannot let them in the church, minister to them, and if they do come in our church, they better like get ready for me to call them names....

Because I don't believe in the power of the Blood to redeem them.

So now we got to keep them outta our churches and make sure they don't ever experience the power of God. Because if they do God just may show me out and deliver and save them and I would have to stand behind my precious pulpit and apologize to all the homos I kept from the altar and carded them off from the wanting to be in the presence of God with my utter prejudice and hatred...."

Folks, we as the church need to wise up. He that winneth souls is WISE.

So now the blood of Jesus Christ cannot wash homosexuality away???

A homosexual cannot simply fall to their knees as forgiveness and the blood of Christ wash over them. They need the laying on of hands and that homosexual demon cast out of them.-NEWWINE

This is absolutely true. When one is possessed they cannot cry out to God because that spirit will not let them. So, let me tell you what I have witnessed. When one tries to call out to God that demon will roll their eyes into the back of their head, their tongue will stretch out of their mouth, that demon will tell them that are going to die, their body will contorted into ways that not even a gymnast can do! That persons will is bound, they cannot confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, that demon will not even let them repent!

You take the words that I have spoken and attempted to twist them. Just as many take the scripture and twist them. For those that have been grafted into the body of Christ they are under the blood. A homosexual is not under the blood.

Now if someone doesn't bow to your power to cast out their devil then they cannot experience God move in their lives????

FIRST OF ALL LET ME TELL YOU….IT IS NOT MY POWER BUT THE POWER THAT JESUS CHRIST HATH GIVEN UNTO ME. But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost has come upon you. You shall have power to CAST OUT DEMONS…I EXERCISE MY GOD GIVEN AUTHORITY OVER EVERY DEMONIC SPIRIT. Greater is he that is in me than he that is in world.

It is this type of classification of sin that renders many of folks in the Body of Christ ineffective to minister to those bound by homosexuality or lesbianism.

To those that are afraid of the devil and every demon they need to get a revelation of their God given authority.

This innate fear that folks have of homosexuals and lesbians.

I DON’T FEAR ANY DEMON IN HELL. God hath not given me a spirit of fear but of love and of a sound mind.

Those who got a problem with Cece singing at Victory...

"OhmyGod, like we cannot be around homos because that spirit is like too strong so we cannot let them in the church, minister to them, and if they do come in our church, they better like get ready for me to call them names....

Because I don't believe in the power of the Blood to redeem them.


You don’t believe that blood of Christ can redeem?

So now we got to keep them outta our churches and make sure they don't ever experience the power of God. Because if they do God just may show me out and deliver and save them and I would have to stand behind my precious pulpit and apologize to all the homos I kept from the altar and carded them off from the wanting to be in the presence of God with my utter prejudice and hatred...."

Keeping company with homosexuals and lesbians is not biblical. The word of the Lord instructs about the company that we keep. When you hang around those that are possessed with demonic spirits those spirits will get a hold of you. I have seen this happen saints before. By no means DID I EVER STATE THAT HOMOSEXUALS OR LESBIANS SHOULD NOT ENTER A CHURCH. I ALSO NEVER CALLED ANYONE A NAME. You are simply making a mockery because you don't have the word of God in you; and your heart is not open to receive truth. I'm sure you'll have an argument against this bit of truth as well.

[NewWine]

TV1A: Your responses have dodged what you said. But that is okay because there is and never will be an argument that can stand against the word.

[tv1a]

I beg to differ. Facts are gossip and undisciplined overweight people are more acceptable in religious circles. The theme of my posts has been to point out the ridiculous expectations of the armchair quarterbacks and their inconsistencies. I stated I would use a homosexual before a gossiper any day. Read what you want into that.

TV1A: Your responses have dodged what you said. But that is okay because there is and never will be an argument that can stand against the word.

[ReformedDave]

It was suggested gossip was a lesser sin. I just pointed out it was often mentioned in scripture with as much intensitiy as homosexuality. Gossip is mentioned more in the Bible than homosexuality.

There are different degrees and punishments for sins. Scripture indicates such. When Scripture refers to a sin as an abomination we need to heed that.

[ReformedDave]

I beg to differ. Facts are gossip and undisciplined overweight people are more acceptable in religious circles. The theme of my posts has been to point out the ridiculous expectations of the armchair quarterbacks and their inconsistencies. I stated I would use a homosexual before a gossiper any day. Read what you want into that.

Why would you use either?

[tv1a]

Bingo!!!!! The light has turned on... It took a while... lol

I wouldn't go into a homosexual church to preach against homosexuality no more than I would go to a No Limits Conference and preach against the withcraft of legalism. unless directed by God.


Why would you use either?

[GodsBabyGirl]

Keeping company with sinners isn't biblical???

Then how is it that Jesus ate with them? Hung out with them more than he hung out at church?

Ministered to them even!

And yes, He employed the ministry of casting out devils. That is scriptural.

How can you cast a devil out of someone if you are afraid to be around them? Yes, I use the word afraid because all this talk of not companying with homosexuals and the such is irrelevant and untrue. And not the issue....

AGAIN I reiterate....CeCe is not joining the praise and worship team and openly endorsing their lifestyle.

She is not get on that platform or any platform and concurring that is okay to remain homosexual or lesbian.

NO. She is merely going there to minister. One night.

While she sings Alabaster Box and the anointing falls, you never know. Some homosexual may get touched. A seed may actually be planted. God can speak to that lesbian as she hold hands with her partner that her lifestyle is wrong and she should repent.

No, deliverance may not take place THAT night. But a seed would be planted in the souls of many.

One plants, another waters but it is GOD who gets the increase and the glory.

Not your 'deliverance ministry' or some denomination.

That is what turn folks off. This I got the power, I got the truth attitude and mindset that makes folks who are jacked up run from the presence of God.

Because I gonna say it.

There are a lot of misrepresentatives of the Presence of God. God use us one time, God shows us something one time, God gives revelation, power and authority through our vessels a couple of times and we actually think it is about us! We forget that the treasure is in an earthen vessel and forget that we got hang ups, issues and yes, SIN, just like everybody else.....EVEN the homosexual!

So we need to repent. Yes, the chuch needs to repent. Because we make sure to make folks feel like "you will never get to the place of repentance, you aren't worthy to experience the presence of God, I am holier than you are because ...." and many equate holiness with that .........

And then we tell others who just might be led by God to not go and minister to those who are hungry for me, even though they are practicing sin!

What?

You mean to tell me that someone practicing sin just may still be hungry for God just as much, maybe even MORE, than the good ol' church folks????

Man looks at the outward appearance, but I thank God He looks at the HEART!

Maybe it is because I have been there that I can understand what is going on thru the mind of an avg homosexual or lesbian. No I don't condone the lifestyle.

But I am also aware of the fact that in addition to deliverance, in addition to ministering the Word of God, in addition to all that, and it IS necessary....

The Church needs to practice some love to these folks. Period.

They are people.

If someone's mama wasn't saved, and was a gambler, how would you think it would make that mama feel if she went to church because God was ALREADY dealing with her outside of church....only to have the preacher say some ........ like,

"You heathen gambler! You are no good and rotten low down dirty to the core! Don't come into our church with your gambling spirit! You'll corrupt the whole bunch!

You take all your cotton pickin' money that you need to buy your baby some shoes and go shoot it up at the ........ table! You going straight to helL!!!!"

Now, if this preacher is doing this by unction of the Holy Ghost, thats one thing.

But more likely than not, he wouldn't. You see, he got issues with gamblers has from a child. So now every chance he gets he goes for that gambling 'spirit.'

He misuses his authority and causes a soul to be alienated from the church or God. Because the mama believes that God doesn't love her and cannot save or deliver her because that is what she heard from the mandaGod or the womanofGod.

We gotta watch how we deal with the souls of men, folks. Because ALL souls belong to God. The homosexual one, the lesbian one, the lying preacher one,

The phoney politician one, the undercover saint one, the drug dealer, the gossiper, the rebellious.....

All of them belong to Him and He is sovereign! He will save those we least expected to be saved.

He will deliver those we least expected to be delivered.

And He will use whomever, WHEREVER, whenever, He chooses to save His souls!

[ReformedDave]

Keeping company with sinners isn't biblical???

Then how is it that Jesus ate with them? Hung out with them more than he hung out at church?

Ministered to them even!

And yes, He employed the ministry of casting out devils. That is scriptural.

How can you cast a devil out of someone if you are afraid to be around them? Yes, I use the word afraid because all this talk of not companying with homosexuals and the such is irrelevant and untrue. And not the issue....

AGAIN I reiterate....CeCe is not joining the praise and worship team and openly endorsing their lifestyle.

She is not get on that platform or any platform and concurring that is okay to remain homosexual or lesbian.

NO. She is merely going there to minister. One night.

While she sings Alabaster Box and the anointing falls, you never know. Some homosexual may get touched. A seed may actually be planted. God can speak to that lesbian as she hold hands with her partner that her lifestyle is wrong and she should repent.

No, deliverance may not take place THAT night. But a seed would be planted in the souls of many.

One plants, another waters but it is GOD who gets the increase and the glory.

Not your 'deliverance ministry' or some denomination.

That is what turn folks off. This I got the power, I got the truth attitude and mindset that makes folks who are jacked up run from the presence of God.

Because I gonna say it.

There are a lot of misrepresentatives of the Presence of God. God use us one time, God shows us something one time, God gives revelation, power and authority through our vessels a couple of times and we actually think it is about us! We forget that the treasure is in an earthen vessel and forget that we got hang ups, issues and yes, SIN, just like everybody else.....EVEN the homosexual!

So we need to repent. Yes, the chuch needs to repent. Because we make sure to make folks feel like "you will never get to the place of repentance, you aren't worthy to experience the presence of God, I am holier than you are because ...." and many equate holiness with that .........

And then we tell others who just might be led by God to go and minister to those who are hungry for me, even though they are practicing sin!

What?

You mean to tell me that someone practicing sin just may still be hungry for God just as much, maybe even MORE, than the good ol' church folks????

Man looks at the outward appearance, but I thank God He looks at the HEART!

Maybe it is because I have been there that I can understand what is going on thru the mind of an avg homosexual or lesbian. No I don't condone the lifestyle.

But I am also aware of the fact that in addition to deliverance, in addition to ministering the Word of God, in addition to all that, and it IS necessary....

The Church needs to practice some love to these folks. Period.

They are people.

If someone's mama wasn't saved, and was a gambler, how would you think it would make that mama feel if she went to church because God was ALREADY dealing with her outside of church....only to have the preacher say some ........ like,

"You heathen gambler! You are no good and rotten low down dirty to the core! Don't come into our church with your gambling spirit! You'll corrupt the whole bunch!

You take all your cotton pickin' money that you need to buy your baby some shoes and go shoot it up at the ........ table! You going straight to helL!!!!"

Now, if this preacher is doing this by unction of the Holy Ghost, thats one thing.

But more likely than not, he wouldn't. You see, he got issues with gamblers has from a child. So now every chance he gets he goes for that gambling 'spirit.'

He misuses his authority and causes a soul to be alienated from the church or God. Because the mama believes that God doesn't love her and cannot save or deliver her because that is what she heard from the mandaGod or the womanofGod.

We gotta watch how we deal with the souls of men, folks. Because ALL souls belong to God. The homosexual one, the lesbian one, the lying preacher one,

The phoney politician one, the undercover saint one, the drug dealer, the gossiper, the rebellious.....

All of them belong to Him and He is sovereign! He will save those we least expected to be saved.

He will deliver those we least expected to be delivered.

And He will use whomever, WHEREVER, whenever, He chooses to save His souls!

The church needs to "practice love"? What does that mean to you in this context?

[Exupcer]

The above man stated.....

I have no fear of gays. I have several friends that are homosexual. What I do fear is the ONE Who can destroy not only my body but also my soul. What he deems as an abomination I have no right to contradict.

Do you think Cece is going to tell anybody at this church that they need to leave their lifestyle???????
__________________

So, tell us about your 'friendship' with homosexuals. This is interesting. I have also made some new friends as of late who are gay. Why do you believe that it is OK for you to be a friend to homosexuals, several of them you are friends with you state, yet you do not believe that Jesus is a friend to them? Are you claiming to be MORE friendly than Jesus? Do you associate with those whom you believe Jesus does not? Do you accept as friends those whom God does not? Is this because you are better than God or worse than God? If you are their friend and God is not...then you are not on the same page with God, and from your ultra conservative view, would that not put your own soul in jeapordy?

What do you and your gay friends do? Explain please. We want to know, since you seem to write about this much, and have 'several' as friends. Is homosexuality something that you struggle with in secret? Just wondering, since you seem at ease with them as friends, yet struggle with religious acceptance of them. Is this a conflict between your heart and head?

[chosenbyone]

The above man stated.....
So, tell us about your 'friendship' with homosexuals. This is interesting. I have also made some new friends as of late who are gay. Why do you believe that it is OK for you to be a friend to homosexuals, several of them you are friends with you state, yet you do not believe that Jesus is a friend to them? Are you claiming to be MORE friendly than Jesus? Do you associate with those whom you believe Jesus does not? Do you accept as friends those whom God does not? Is this because you are better than God or worse than God? If you are their friend and God is not...then you are not on the same page with God, and from your ultra conservative view, would that not put your own soul in jeapordy?

Just wondering, since you seem at ease with them as friends, yet struggle with religious acceptance of them. Is this a conflict between your heart and head?

Perhaps, the conflict originated when he left the Apostolic church and became a Presbyterian? :tease

[chosenbyone]

You know, Sis, that was one of the wisest responses to this fear of ministering to 'gays.'

Let me just say...

I could see if CeCe was going to join the praise and worship team at Victory or something. I lived right down the street from Victory when I lived in GA.

I inadvertantly had my daughter go to the church with a friend. The things my daughter told me she saw when she came back appalled me.

But the point is, HOW ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH WILL THE HOMOSEXUAL GET SAVED OR DELIVERED IF THE CHURCH IS TOO FREAKIN' SCARED TO MINISTER TO THEM?

You mean to tell me that gays and lesbians aren't worthy to experience the presence of God?

The redeeming power of God? The anointing that destroys the yoke of perversion off their lives?

I do believe this is why homosexuals and lesbians have congregations.

I mean if they thought they were all right, they wouldn't acknowledge a need for redemption or salvation, right?

Yes, herego, their gospel is a little perverted. Their doctrine is off.

But what we must look at is the fact that they at least WANT to go to church. They want to know that Jesus loves them.

This is what we ALL want.

Now if a homosexual cannot come to church and hear the Word of God that can save their soul...

If a lesbian cannot experience an encounter with God while under the anointing at church...

Where can they go?

Leave CeCe alone. I believe the woman is led by the Holy Ghost, and am sure she prayed about going there before she agreed to minister there.

I read through the last few pages of this thread this evening and I thought that your posts showed compassion, love and understanding that many other posts on this thread lacked. A person was more likely to except the truth of salvation from someone who took the time to be a friend and who was willing to truly minister to them. Jesus exemplified that throughout his life and ministry when he befriended the sinners even at the cost of his reputation.

I was glad to see that you got it, sister!:thumbsup

[Sarah]

Good grief.
Your line of reasoning there does not make a whole lot of sense.

Yes, gluttony is sin. Yes, gossiping is sin, etc. But...

There are no churches that have been founded for the purpose of promoting gluttony, or gossiping, or lying, or thievery, etc. But "gay-accepting" churches have been founded to promote acceptance of homosexuality. These churches by their very existence, are in denial of, and rebellion against, the word of God!

Why is it so hard for you to see the very clear distinction there?

---

If professing Christians really can't see how "gay churches" are related to the larger "gay movement" affecting our society, and how "gay churches" are being used by the devil to undermine God's design of family and sexuality, then in my mind, these believers have serious issues concerning spiritual perception, discernment, and judgment. No wonder so many churches are powerless today.

tv la, and others, have you read this post? It is THE post for this thread, as far as I'm concerned.

To even be questioning if this is wrong or not is a sad situation, and shows just how far the 'church' has gotten from God.

I shouldn't be surprised...........this has to be the last days we're living in.

[chosenbyone]

Mark 2

13Once again Jesus went out beside the lake. A large crowd came to him, and he began to teach them. 14As he walked along, he saw Levi son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," Jesus told him, and Levi got up and followed him.
15While Jesus was having dinner at Levi's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. 16When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the "sinners" and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: "Why does he eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"

17On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

[Sarah]

Mark 2

13Once again Jesus went out beside the lake. A large crowd came to him, and he began to teach them. 14As he walked along, he saw Levi son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," Jesus told him, and Levi got up and followed him.
15While Jesus was having dinner at Levi's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. 16When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the "sinners" and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: "Why does he eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"

17On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."


Chosenbyone, every time we have a family reunion, I eat with sinners...........namely, some homosexuals. I love them dearly, and have great compassion for them. They know this.

What I have a problem with is going to a known 'gay church' and fellowshipping with them, and from everything I read on here, saying 'you're ok'. Do you really believe they're ok? If the bible is plain on anything, it's plain on the sin of homosexuality.

A few years ago, Holy Ghost filled people would never have dreamed of going to a 'gay' church.......unless it was to preach to them, and make them aware of their sin. Amazing how we can be rocked to sleep after only a few years.

I again wonder........what's gotten into people?

[ReformedDave]

The above man stated.....

I have no fear of gays. I have several friends that are homosexual. What I do fear is the ONE Who can destroy not only my body but also my soul. What he deems as an abomination I have no right to contradict.

Do you think Cece is going to tell anybody at this church that they need to leave their lifestyle???????
__________________

So, tell us about your 'friendship' with homosexuals. This is interesting. I have also made some new friends as of late who are gay. Why do you believe that it is OK for you to be a friend to homosexuals, several of them you are friends with you state, yet you do not believe that Jesus is a friend to them? Are you claiming to be MORE friendly than Jesus? Do you associate with those whom you believe Jesus does not? Do you accept as friends those whom God does not? Is this because you are better than God or worse than God? If you are their friend and God is not...then you are not on the same page with God, and from your ultra conservative view, would that not put your own soul in jeapordy?

What do you and your gay friends do? Explain please. We want to know, since you seem to write about this much, and have 'several' as friends. Is homosexuality something that you struggle with in secret? Just wondering, since you seem at ease with them as friends, yet struggle with religious acceptance of them. Is this a conflict between your heart and head?

You make some very interesting assertions. I have some friends that I've known all, or most, of my life and later in life they declared themselves to be gay. I still remain friends. They know where I stand. We are not 'hang out buddies' as they have chosen a sinful path but they know they still have a friend that if they choose to forsake their sin and turn to Christ I will help anyway I can. In no way do they think I condone their choice.

Do I think I'm better than God? Your stupidity is showing! I'm instructed to be an example to those that do not know Christ. While He was on earth He ate with sinners but in no way condoned their lives. I am and will do the same and be available if God chooses to convict them. I will continue, as the opportunity arises, to witness to them and pray for them. I have no latent homosexual tendencies and I don't struggle with religious acceptance of them. They are going to an eternity of punishment if they don't come to a place of true repentance.

[ReformedDave]

Perhaps, the conflict originated when he left the Apostolic church and became a Presbyterian? :tease

Sure. That's it!

[Prodigal]

I have no fear of gays. I have several friends that are homosexual. What I do fear is the ONE Who can destroy not only my body but also my soul. What he deems as an abomination I have no right to contradict.

NewWine said: "Keeping company with homosexuals and lesbians is not biblical. The word of the Lord instructs about the company that we keep. When you hang around those that are possessed with demonic spirits those spirits will get a hold of you".

Take heed ReformedDave!!! It's not in effect a "curse" like you say. It's a DEMON and it will get a hold of you!! Beware of the company you keep.:runhills

[Prodigal]

This is absolutely true. When one is possessed they cannot cry out to God because that spirit will not let them. So, let me tell you what I have witnessed. When one tries to call out to God that demon will roll their eyes into the back of their head, their tongue will stretch out of their mouth, that demon will tell them that are going to die, their body will contorted into ways that not even a gymnast can do! That persons will is bound, they cannot confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, that demon will not even let them repent!


Maybe they should try out for the olympics!! I can see the judges now.....a perfect score to the demon possessed homosexual...even with their eyes rolled into the back of their head..but we have to do something about that tongue hanging out.

Are you for real?

[ReformedDave]

I have no fear of gays. I have several friends that are homosexual. What I do fear is the ONE Who can destroy not only my body but also my soul. What he deems as an abomination I have no right to contradict.

NewWine said: "Keeping company with homosexuals and lesbians is not biblical. The word of the Lord instructs about the company that we keep. When you hang around those that are possessed with demonic spirits those spirits will get a hold of you".

Take heed ReformedDave!!! It's not in effect a "curse" like you say. It's a DEMON and it will get a hold of you!! Beware of the company you keep.:runhills

Where's scripture reference for the demon of homosexuality? Romans 1 doesn't indicate that at all. It comes from God taking His restraining hand off of depraved man.

BTW, as I stated before I don't hang out with them but if we're in a social situation I will not shun them either. BTW, a Christian cannot be demon possessed.

[Prodigal]

Where's scripture reference for the demon of homosexuality? Romans 1 doesn't indicate that at all. It comes from God taking His restraining hand off of depraved man.

BTW, as I stated before I don't hang out with them but if we're in a social situation I will not shun them either. BTW, a Christian cannot be demon possessed.

True we are to take care of our bodies and the scripture is very clear saying "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost..." I Corinthians 6:19. Those who can't say "no when their bellies are full"; need to learn some self control; not have a homosexual demon cast out of them.

Yes, Christians at times are gossipers, lie, cheat, steal, and do other sinful acts. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus" Romans 3:23-26

As such we can fall to our knees, repent of our sins, and find forgiveness. However, homosexuality is not the same. A homosexual cannot simply fall to their knees as forgiveness and the blood of Christ wash over them. They need the laying on of hands and that homosexual demon cast out of them. I have laid hands on people and cast demons out of them, in particular homosexual. And I can assure you that their weight was not the issue, it was those demons that had them bound. So you cannot place a shortcoming such as gossiping on the same level as demonic oppression.

Don't ask me...ask NewWine.

[GodsBabyGirl]

I read through the last few pages of this thread this evening and I thought that your posts showed compassion, love and understanding that many other posts on this thread lacked. A person was more likely to except the truth of salvation from someone who took the time to be a friend and who was willing to truly minister to them. Jesus exemplified that throughout his life and ministry when he befriended the sinners even at the cost of his reputation.

I was glad to see that you got it, sister!:thumbsup

Thank q for your comment...

Anyone is much more receptive to ministry of any kind when you minister from a standpoint of 'I am no better than you are. God can save, heal, deliver, etc. Your issue/sin is not too hard for God to handle. My issue isn't too hard for God to handle....'

What is eluding many in the ministry is that we must become all things to all so some can be saved. No, all won't be. But that doesn't mean we stop fishing just because the river is dirty.

When handling fish out of the MS, your hands will get dirty. When you take the fish off the hook, you will get a little soiled. It is not the most comfortable experience, that fishing.

I went one time with my grandma. There were mosquitoes everywhere! And they tore my hide up, ya heard?

She told me that sometimes snakes come out. And especially in the Deep South sometimes you'll see alligators!

But yet and all, despite the risk of the environment, many still partake of this leisurely activity. When they can just as easily go to a fish store and buy the fish, caught AND cleaned, packaged real nice ready to put in the pan and fry down with some cornbread.

But I know a few folk who won't buy seafood from the store. They actually PREFER to go out and risk the elements to catch fresh fish out the water, pack them on ice, have the truck or car stank as all get out, THEN go home and clean the fish up, which is just plain N.A.S.T.Y.!!!!! :reaction

Yet us fishers of men...well, we don't want to get our hands dirty. We don't want to risk the elements in FEAR that they will overtake us.

Here we got all power and authority, have the Word of God AND the Holy Ghost at our possession, and afraid or unable to use it.

We too scurred (scared) to go out and fish for souls in the lake of Sodom and Gomorrah. We too scurred that a demon may jump on us and we may actually get a buzz from all the perversion swarming all around us....for shame...

And that's cool if that's where we are at.

But if God leads someone else (CeCe) to get out of their comfort zone and go to the river instead of waiting for the fish to jump out of the water and VOILA! all of a sudden the fish (harvest) just jumped up in my net!!!!!

Let her alone. She is being led of God. And I admire the fact that she is getting out of her comfort zone and gone fishin!

We still in da boat!

Well, go ahead and wait for the fish to jump in your net. You know we got one (a net) on every corner. Maybe that poor fish would survive outta water longer than we think....

[Timmy]

There are different degrees and punishments for sins. Scripture indicates such. When Scripture refers to a sin as an abomination we need to heed that.

Leviticus 11:12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Leviticus 11:20 All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.

Leviticus 11:41 And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten.

[ReformedDave]

Leviticus 11:12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Leviticus 11:20 All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.

Leviticus 11:41 And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten.

Okay. Your point?

[Timmy]

Okay. Your point?

My point is you should not eat shellfish, since scripture calls it an abomination. You seem to put more significance on "sins" that are labeled such.

The usual answer to this (besides ridicule, saying it reflects a lack of scriptural understanding) is that this is "ceremonial law" (rescinded, and/or not for Gentiles), not the "moral law" (applies to everyone, and for all time). OK, what scripture says that, and spells out which laws are which?

The abomination of male homosexuality is in a list in the same book, but both lists are simply introduced as the Lord speaking to Moses, with laws to give the children of Israel.

[GodsBabyGirl]

Leviticus 11:12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Leviticus 11:20 All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.

Leviticus 11:41 And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten.

I laughed when I saw the (scriptural) reference to fish here, seeing I used fish as an analogy for souls...Pun intended?

Oh well, whatever! :ursofunny

[ReformedDave]

My point is you should not eat shellfish, since scripture calls it an abomination. You seem to put more significance on "sins" that are labeled such.

The usual answer to this (besides ridicule, saying it reflects a lack of scriptural understanding) is that this is "ceremonial law" (rescinded, and/or not for Gentiles), not the "moral law" (applies to everyone, and for all time). OK, what scripture says that, and spells out which laws are which?

The abomination of male homosexuality is in a list in the same book, but both lists are simply introduced as the Lord speaking to Moses, with laws to give the children of Israel.

Interesting that the dietary laws were rescinded in the NT and the sin of homosexuality was maintained.

The difference between the 'ceremonial' law and moral law is that the ceremonial law pointed to and was fulfilled by Christ. The moral law reflects God's character or nature and doesn't change.

As far as one scripture? You'll have to do a systematic study and take everything into account.

[chosenbyone]

Thank q for your comment...

Anyone is much more receptive to ministry of any kind when you minister from a standpoint of 'I am no better than you are. God can save, heal, deliver, etc. Your issue/sin is not too hard for God to handle. My issue isn't too hard for God to handle....'

What is eluding many in the ministry is that we must become all things to all so some can be saved. No, all won't be. But that doesn't mean we stop fishing just because the river is dirty.

When handling fish out of the MS, your hands will get dirty. When you take the fish off the hook, you will get a little soiled. It is not the most comfortable experience, that fishing.

I went one time with my grandma. There were mosquitoes everywhere! And they tore my hide up, ya heard?

She told me that sometimes snakes come out. And especially in the Deep South sometimes you'll see alligators!

But yet and all, despite the risk of the environment, many still partake of this leisurely activity. When they can just as easily go to a fish store and buy the fish, caught AND cleaned, packaged real nice ready to put in the pan and fry down with some cornbread.

But I know a few folk who won't buy seafood from the store. They actually PREFER to go out and risk the elements to catch fresh fish out the water, pack them on ice, have the truck or car stank as all get out, THEN go home and clean the fish up, which is just plain N.A.S.T.Y.!!!!! :reaction

Yet us fishers of men...well, we don't want to get our hands dirty. We don't want to risk the elements in FEAR that they will overtake us.

Here we got all power and authority, have the Word of God AND the Holy Ghost at our possession, and afraid or unable to use it.

We too scurred (scared) to go out and fish for souls in the lake of Sodom and Gomorrah. We too scurred that a demon may jump on us and we may actually get a buzz from all the perversion swarming all around us....for shame...

And that's cool if that's where we are at.

But if God leads someone else (CeCe) to get out of their comfort zone and go to the river instead of waiting for the fish to jump out of the water and VOILA! all of a sudden the fish (harvest) just jumped up in my net!!!!!

Let her alone. She is being led of God. And I admire the fact that she is getting out of her comfort zone and gone fishin!

We still in da boat!

Well, go ahead and wait for the fish to jump in your net. You know we got one (a net) on every corner. Maybe that poor fish would survive outta water longer than we think....

Truth!!!

[Timmy]

Interesting that the dietary laws were rescinded in the NT and the sin of homosexuality was maintained.

The difference between the 'ceremonial' law and moral law is that the ceremonial law pointed to and was fulfilled by Christ. The moral law reflects God's character or nature and doesn't change.

As far as one scripture? You'll have to do a systematic study and take everything into account.

And I find it interesting that some of the rescinded laws were denoted as abominations, originally.

It's also interesting that in the NT some dietary laws (not sure they came from the OT, though) were required of Gentile believers: refrain from eating meat offered to idols, from blood, and from things strangled. (Acts 15:29)

[chosenbyone]

Excerpt from "MINISTERING GRACIOUSLY TO THE GAY AND LESBIAN
COMMUNITY", by Brian Keith Williams, pg 114:

The Painful Way

Satan works to convince the church to pass by the homosexual by convincing them that he is incorrigible and unchangeable. By accomplishing this, he has undermined the power of the blood of Jesus in the hearts and minds of Christendom. If Jesus' shed blood stops short of transforming a particular person (and it does not), then what else can it not affect? This is the de facto reality of denying its power over homosexuality.

[ReformedDave]

And I find it interesting that some of the rescinded laws were denoted as abominations, originally.

It's also interesting that in the NT some dietary laws (not sure they came from the OT, though) were required of Gentile believers: refrain from eating meat offered to idols, from blood, and from things strangled. (Acts 15:29)

God can change whatever He desires.....He's da boss.

As far as the NT dietary laws, I'll have to look into them further. Could have been a cultural issue. I'm not ready to offer an opinion.

[tv1a]

Please allow me to offer a better example. Jesus went to the Gaderenes. As soon as he stepped off the boat a demon possessed man ran to Jesus and was delivered. Jesus didn't have to say one word. He stepped off the boat.

Here is another thought people fail to realize. What was Jesus doing in a region known for raising pigs? Pigs were an abomination in Jewish culture. Jesus walked among pig farmers, threw some devils into a herd of pigs then was kicked out of town. He didn't go into that area telling people they had to get rid of their pigs. He just showed up, did his thang, then left.

It reeks of self righteousness if one believes they have to preach about homosexuality in a homosexual church when they don't preach about the other sins at other churches. They just let the Lord lead them.

As I have stated before, Unless directed by God, I wouldn't preach against the witchcraft of legalism at the Beyond Limits Confernce. I would follow the same principle if invited to preach at a homosexual church. I find it funny all the armchair quarterbacks who haven't spent one moment in prayer on what God wants to accomplish in that service have the audacity to tell someone how to minister to a congregation.

It has been established by people who know, the church in question has been mischaracterized. I'll take their word for it since they live in the area. Even if it was a "gay affirming" church, not everyone who attends that church is gay. So maybe we should butt out, get off our soapboxes, and trust the person who is going there is going to do what God tells them. Cece Winans has an excellent track record. She will follow the leading of the Lord.

Mark 2

13Once again Jesus went out beside the lake. A large crowd came to him, and he began to teach them. 14As he walked along, he saw Levi son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," Jesus told him, and Levi got up and followed him.
15While Jesus was having dinner at Levi's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. 16When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the "sinners" and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: "Why does he eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"

17On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

[tv1a]

The Bible says the gates of hell shall not prevail... Assuming this church is what some people on this forum suggests it is, the gates had to split open. While the one god tongue talkers were busy sharpening their knives, Cece was busy preparing the nets.

Thank q for your comment...

Anyone is much more receptive to ministry of any kind when you minister from a standpoint of 'I am no better than you are. God can save, heal, deliver, etc. Your issue/sin is not too hard for God to handle. My issue isn't too hard for God to handle....'

What is eluding many in the ministry is that we must become all things to all so some can be saved. No, all won't be. But that doesn't mean we stop fishing just because the river is dirty.

When handling fish out of the MS, your hands will get dirty. When you take the fish off the hook, you will get a little soiled. It is not the most comfortable experience, that fishing.

I went one time with my grandma. There were mosquitoes everywhere! And they tore my hide up, ya heard?

She told me that sometimes snakes come out. And especially in the Deep South sometimes you'll see alligators!

But yet and all, despite the risk of the environment, many still partake of this leisurely activity. When they can just as easily go to a fish store and buy the fish, caught AND cleaned, packaged real nice ready to put in the pan and fry down with some cornbread.

But I know a few folk who won't buy seafood from the store. They actually PREFER to go out and risk the elements to catch fresh fish out the water, pack them on ice, have the truck or car stank as all get out, THEN go home and clean the fish up, which is just plain N.A.S.T.Y.!!!!! :reaction

Yet us fishers of men...well, we don't want to get our hands dirty. We don't want to risk the elements in FEAR that they will overtake us.

Here we got all power and authority, have the Word of God AND the Holy Ghost at our possession, and afraid or unable to use it.

We too scurred (scared) to go out and fish for souls in the lake of Sodom and Gomorrah. We too scurred that a demon may jump on us and we may actually get a buzz from all the perversion swarming all around us....for shame...

And that's cool if that's where we are at.

But if God leads someone else (CeCe) to get out of their comfort zone and go to the river instead of waiting for the fish to jump out of the water and VOILA! all of a sudden the fish (harvest) just jumped up in my net!!!!!

Let her alone. She is being led of God. And I admire the fact that she is getting out of her comfort zone and gone fishin!

We still in da boat!

Well, go ahead and wait for the fish to jump in your net. You know we got one (a net) on every corner. Maybe that poor fish would survive outta water longer than we think....

[TRFrance]

While the one god tongue talkers were busy sharpening their knives, Cece was busy preparing the nets.

If you really think Cece is "busy preparing her nets" for these people, I have a bridge over in Brooklyn that I can sell you for really good price.

[ReformedDave]

The Bible says the gates of hell shall not prevail... Assuming this church is what some people on this forum suggests it is, the gates had to split open. While the one god tongue talkers were busy sharpening their knives, Cece was busy preparing the nets.

This church is the exact opposite of Fred Phelps and just as rotten...probably more so as it's more sociably acceptable.

If you were asked to preach at Phelp's what would you preach about?

[Prodigal]

I don't know what I was thinking. The "church" can't even agree on something like running a commercial on TV, let alone agree on ministering to homosexuals. Let's recap some of what's been said.

It's a sin.
It's an abomination.
It's a curse.
No, it's not really a curse, but in effect a curse.
It's a satanic snare. (The official position of the UPCI)

I have friends that are homosexuals (but we're not hang- out buddies)
It is not biblical to keep company with homosexuals.
You can catch it. Those spirits will "get a hold of you". It's happened to saints.
The homosexual demon will roll their eyes, their tongue will stretch way out, and they will contort their bodies in postitions like that of a gymnast.

It's a spirit.
It's a demon.
It's the devil.

It's a punishment from God for unrepented sin.
You can't repent. The demon will not let you.
A homosexual cannot fall to their knee's, ask forgiveness, and the blood of christ will not wash over them.

All fags should be lined up against a wall & shot. (spoken like a true evangelist)
If you even suspect that someone in your congregation is gay, throw them out.

You can be delivered.
You can't be fully delivered.
You can't be instantly healed. It comes in phases.
You can live a victorious life.
You can still be a homosexual, just a celebate one.

If this is what a homosexual encounters, no wonder the success rate for ex-gay ministries is almost non-existent. Not to mention all of the gay people that hide behind being married, or have a successful music ministry, or can even be a dynamic evangelist. When gay people do seek guidance in the church and they encounter those "on the down low", they leave as quickly as they can.

[TRFrance]

ok.
and after saying all that...your point is what exactly?

[ReformedDave]

I don't know what I was thinking. The "church" can't even agree on something like running a commercial on TV, let alone agree on ministering to homosexuals. Let's recap some of what's been said.

It's a sin.
It's an abomination.
It's a curse.
No, it's not really a curse, but in effect a curse.
It's a satanic snare. (The official position of the UPCI)

I have friends that are homosexuals (but we're not hang- out buddies)
It is not biblical to keep company with homosexuals.
You can catch it. Those spirits will "get a hold of you". It's happened to saints.
The homosexual demon will roll their eyes, their tongue will stretch way out, and they will contort their bodies in postitions like that of a gymnast.

It's a spirit.
It's a demon.
It's the devil.

It's a punishment from God for unrepented sin.
You can't repent. The demon will not let you.
A homosexual cannot fall to their knee's, ask forgiveness, and the blood of christ will not wash over them.

All fags should be lined up against a wall & shot. (spoken like a true evangelist)
If you even suspect that someone in your congregation is gay, throw them out.

You can be delivered.
You can't be fully delivered.
You can't be instantly healed. It comes in phases.
You can live a victorious life.
You can still be a homosexual, just a celebate one.

If this is what a homosexual encounters, no wonder the success rate for ex-gay ministries is almost non-existent. Not to mention all of the gay people that hide behind being married, or have a successful music ministry, or can even be a dynamic evangelist. When gay people do seek guidance in the church and they encounter those "on the down low", they leave as quickly as they can.

Since we've left you quite confused why don't you just read the Bible and do what it says........

[TRFrance]

Since we've left you quite confused why don't you just read the Bible and do what it says........

Exactly.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what other people believe.
What matters is what you believe.

[GodsBabyGirl]

ok.
and after saying all that...your point is what exactly?

The point is let's usher them into the presence of God.

Because the church as we know it is the most dangerous place to repent and get right with God.

[ReformedDave]

The point is let's usher them into the presence of God.

Because the church as we know it is the most dangerous place to repent and get right with God.

Maybe yours is. Not mine. I hear the Gospel preached every week and sinners are faithfully called to Christ.

[tv1a]

About 10 minutes. That's about all I can handle of myself. Although I did make the congregation suffer for about 45 minutes tonight.

If you were asked to preach at Phelp's what would you preach about?

[ReformedDave]

About 10 minutes. That's about all I can handle of myself. Although I did make the congregation suffer for about 45 minutes tonight.

Whatz you preaching about tonite?

[tv1a]

I taught about disciplining children, and how it should be done.
Whatz you preaching about tonite?

[Prodigal]

ok.
and after saying all that...your point is what exactly?

My point exactly is the difference between the hype of hope and the reality of results.

Let's examine the results before making claims of hope.

Whether your view is your interpretation of a biblically based cause and cure, or a clinically based view of cause and cure, the question is do any of these attempts really work?

Medical attempts to "cure" homosexuality have included surgical treatments such as hysterectomy, ovariectomy, clitoridectomy, castration, vasectomy, pudic nerve surgery, and lobotomy. Substance-based treatment attempts have included hormone treatment, pharmacologic shock treatment and treatment with sexual stimulants and sexual depressants. Other attempts include aversion therapy, electroshock treatment, group therapy, hypnosis,and psychoanalysis.

While some of these, including the use of electric shock and nausea-inducing drugs, are still used, even today's prominent conversion therapists who advocate psychoanalytic conversion denounce the other methods as "quackeries".

Religious attempts to "cure" homosexuality have included prayer, reparative therapy, conversion therapy, celebate lifestyle, marraige, and even the exorcism of a homosexual demon.

From the available data, four studies have reported a "success" rate during conversion therapy of 0.4%, 0.0%, 0.5 and 0.04%. That is, conversion therapy has a failure rate in excess of 99.5% during each study.

The one thing all of these methods have in common is that they all fail miserably. I'd like to talk to whomever has experienced a change in their sexual orientation as a result of prayer, exorcism, or therapy.

Anxiously waiting. PM me.

[Arphaxad]

"When one is possessed they cannot cry out to God because that spirit will not let them." quote by New Wine,post 34.
I heard a story about some guy that was possessed by a legion of demons that ran up to Jesus and worshipped Him.

ARPH :doggyrun

[tv1a]

Be careful. You're messing up someone's theology.

"When one is possessed they cannot cry out to God because that spirit will not let them." quote by New Wine,post 34.
I heard a story about some guy that was possessed by a legion of demons that ran up to Jesus and worshipped Him.

ARPH :doggyrun

[ChristopherHall]

Here's a modified version of another post I had posted elsewhere,
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=408904&postcount=294

We had an interesting study tonight in our men's meeting. The title of the discussion was, "Loving Flawed People". We covered the following passage:

1Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." - John 8:1-11

Notice that Jesus didn't condone the sin...however, he didn't allow the Pharisees to criminalize the sinner in his presence in their efforts to accuse him either. Instead he convicted their own hearts by reminding them that they too are sinners.

I'm taking a little liberty here, but could it also read?....

1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a man caught in homosexuality. They made him stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this man was caught in the act of homosexuality. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such men. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at him." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the man still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked him, "Man, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," he said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Homosexuality is a sin. All sin alienates from a Holy God. Homosexuals typically have multiple partners and run the greatest risk of contracting disease. The depression and guilt over this sin can crush the soul. That is why I hate the sin. However, I'm not ashamed to profess that I love the homosexual sinner. Those of us who are straight will never know how horrible it is to be in their condition. Although the world sees them as "gay", they are often the most tormented souls on earth.

Saint of God, you're a sinner saved by God's grace and covered in his mercies. All your "righteousness" is as filthy rags in God's sight. You've not impressed God in any way. You're no more righteous than the homosexual sinner in God's eyes. Both you and the homosexual are immeasurably debased, even on your good days. And I have news for you...the very same blood that cried out in mercy for your salvation cries out for the homosexual sinner.

[ChristopherHall]

I’m not a scientist, so I leave the science to the scientists. We all have flesh. And each of us has certain inclinations or predispositions toward some form of sin. If there is a biological aspect to this, it only proves that our flesh is indeed fallen and prone to sin. There are infirmities of the flesh and should science prove that there is a biological factor, I know that our God is a healer. This would explain why “counseling” never seems to “cure” them. Maybe they are in need of a miraculous deliverance that heals both the body and the heart.

I try to put myself into other people’s shoes. I can honestly say that being straight wasn’t a choice for me. For many of them they say that from their earliest years the same gender more appealing in that way then the opposite gender. I didn’t choose my preference, nor could I just up and choose to be other than straight. Maybe they didn’t “choose” their preference. But in both cases….both myself and each of them has the power to choose rather we act on those preferences. Being straight I have an advantage perhaps; I can choose to act on and enjoy my preferences within the context of marriage. They can’t. This is why some scholars think that some who were of this inclination may have chosen to be eunuchs in ancient times. Maybe they chose to be eunuchs, unmarried servants, for the kingdom’s sake so as to not violate the Law of God. Certainly such a life would have its challenges and temptations, but who’s to say. Maybe they lived a life of celibacy and service.

“His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.” – Matthew 19:10-12

So if one isn’t entirely set free of their same gender attraction, maybe they should be welcomed among us if they are not acting on their attraction. We all have our individual struggles with our flesh. But sadly, baring a miracle, I don’t see them being entirely set free by choosing to suddenly be straight or counseling. It will take a unique touch of miraculous healing from God.

Are they born this way or is it a choice? Answer: I don’t know. Maybe both. As I learn more about it I might feel comfortable enough to say one way or another with some degree of certainty. All I know is that for straight people it's both biological and a choice. We either choose to act on our biological impulses or we choose not to. So responsiblity is still upon the individual for their actions.

[ChristopherHall]

I've tried to study it out and apparently some scholars say that there are three types of eunuchs in ancient history.

- Men who had been castrated.

- Men who were born with deficient male anatomy.

- Men who voluntarily chose not to marry.

According to some scholars those men who voluntarily chose to be a eunuch and rejected marriage as a life choice are described in the Babylonian Talmud. These are described as being, "He whose voice is abnormal so that one cannot distinguish whether it is that of a man or of a woman." So some scholars think that men with homosexual inclinations may have chosen to voluntarily live the life of a eunuch in biblical times.

I once read about how homosexual brains react to same gender pheromone whereas they don't respond to opposite gender pheromone. So there may be a biological component indicating a "pre-disposition" or "inclination" toward this attraction. But clearly one has to choose to give into such attraction just as ordinary males or females would normal attraction. So there is a choice involved even if on some level there's a biological component.

But I have this much to say...

If homosexuality is entirely a choice...I know a Jesus that forgives.

If homosexuality is the result of abuse or pain....I know a Jesus that mends and restores.

If homosexuality is the result of biology on some level...I know a Jesus that can miraculously heal the infirmities of our flesh.

I personally don't believe homosexuals can be counseled into being straight. I believe that homosexuals who are truly seeking God's mercy and grace need a miracle to be set free. Obviously much patience and understanding is needed to minister to struggling homosexuals.

Just my opinion.

[GodsBabyGirl]

I've tried to study it out and apparently some scholars say that there are three types of eunuchs in ancient history.

- Men who had been castrated.

- Men who were born with deficient male anatomy.

- Men who voluntarily chose not to marry.

According to some scholars those men who voluntarily chose to be a eunuch and rejected marriage as a life choice are described in the Babylonian Talmud. These are described as being, "He whose voice is abnormal so that one cannot distinguish whether it is that of a man or of a woman." So some scholars think that men with homosexual inclinations may have chosen to voluntarily live the life of a eunuch in biblical times.

I once read about how homosexual brains react to same gender pheromone whereas they don't respond to opposite gender pheromone. So there may be a biological component indicating a "pre-disposition" or "inclination" toward this attraction. But clearly one has to choose to give into such attraction just as ordinary males or females would normal attraction. So there is a choice involved even if on some level there's a biological component.

But I have this much to say...

If homosexuality is entirely a choice...I know a Jesus that forgives.

If homosexuality is the result of abuse or pain....I know a Jesus that mends and restores.

If homosexuality is the result of biology on some level...I know a Jesus that can miraculously heal the infirmities of our flesh.

I personally don't believe homosexuals can be counseled into being straight. I believe that homosexuals who are truly seeking God's mercy and grace need a miracle to be set free. Obviously much patience and understanding is needed to minister to struggling homosexuals.

Just my opinion.


According to their faith, let it be done unto them...

[Sister Alvear]

Whatever it might be..we could discuss forever... if they are born that way or not...if it is a sickness or not and on and on...one thing we do KNOW it is not the plan of God...and there is healing and strength that comes through Jesus to change.

[SOUNWORTHY]

If the word is not convicting them,what makes you think CeCe's singing will?

If you think that her holding a concert at a gay affirming church is going to turn their thinking around you are wrong

I would agree completely!! This is the lowest form of sin. I'm afraid we have become very soft on sin and associating with sin. We must love the sinner but hate their sins.

[tv1a]

You miss the point. The point was should Cece talk about homosexuality. If she does, she should talk about all the other sin that's representative in that church, not just pick on one sin.

I would agree completely!! This is the lowest form of sin. I'm afraid we have become very soft on sin and associating with sin. We must love the sinner but hate their sins.

[SOUNWORTHY]

Point is she wouldn't know about all the other sins but she does know it's an immoral corrupt church that God can not be pleased with.

[TRFrance]

I would agree completely!! This is the lowest form of sin. I'm afraid we have become very soft on sin and associating with sin. We must love the sinner but hate their sins.
You miss the point. The point was should Cece talk about homosexuality. If she does, she should talk about all the other sin that's representative in that church, not just pick on one sin.

Nonsense, buddy. YOU are the one missing the point, and I don't know why its so hard to see; its as if you're turning a blind eye to the obvious.

There's sin in every church,but this church has made a name for itself by proclaiming itself to be "gay-accepting". This church and this pastor have made a bold statement that they don't feel homosexuality is wrong, and they welcome homosexuals without requiring that they change their behavior. Thus, lets not pretend that gossiping, lying, and "all the other sin" are on the same level in this context here.

If Victory Church hadn't openly and defiantly embraced the sin of homosexuality the way it has, most of us wouldn't even have heard of them.

[MissBrattified]

I have to agree with TRFrance. There's a difference between imperfect people sitting in a church who need to clean some things up in their lives, and the church as a whole proclaiming that sin is alright and does not need to be cleaned up, purged out, forgiven or otherwise changed.

All churches have sin in them, if they have people in them, but most churches do not accept sin as being alright, and preach or teach openly that the sinful state is okay with God, which leads people to be deceived and ultimately will lead them directly to hell.

[TRFrance]

Well said.
And thank you.
Common sense is a beautiful thing.