A Question of Maturity

[gloryseeker]

If the book of Hebrews tells us:

Heb 5:14-6:2
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

CHAPTER 6

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection [maturity]; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. (KJV)

Then why do so many Christians never get past repentance, baptism, and these other principles.

Second part of the question, if those who are ready for strong meat move on, what is it they move on to?

Blessings

[Bro-Larry]

If the book of Hebrews tells us:

Heb 5:14-6:2
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

CHAPTER 6

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection [maturity]; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. (KJV)

Then why do so many Christians never get past repentance, baptism, and these other principles.

Second part of the question, if those who are ready for strong meat move on, what is it they move on to?

Blessings

Paul is saying here that the goal for the mature christian (being of full age) is to teach (disciple), the imature (babes) how to become skilled in the word. "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers,....(vs:12), ye need someone to teach you the basics again. He identified babes as being, "...unskilful in the word...". He also identified mature christians as those who are skilful in the word of righteousness.

The five-fold ministry can't do all the teaching.

The main command of Jesus is to: "Go ye and make disciples..." ((Mat 28:19, ASV).

[gloryseeker]

While I agree with your premise that we are to become teachers and that all teaching is not done by the five fold, it would be hard to extrapolate that position from this text.

The word “perfect” in verse 5:9 referring to Jesus, the term “full of age” in verse 5:14, and the word “perfect” in verse 6:1 are all translated from variations of the same word which means to complete or be a completer. The course of discussion in this verse is not the training up of others, but not falling away of oneself.

The reference in 5:12 that you mentioned is in relation to a person not growing up spiritually. That instead of being in a position of a teacher you are still a babe and in need of a teacher. The insertion of chapter six was a horrible place to put a new chapter because a new subject is never started with the word “therefore.” I like the old saying, “when you see the word ‘therefore’ stop and see what it’s there for.” It is tying one thought to another.

The connection would then seem to be saying if you are going to complete what you started, coming into spiritual maturity, you are going to have to leave the elementary principles and move into deeper truths.

[Joelel]

If the book of Hebrews tells us:

Heb 5:14-6:2
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

CHAPTER 6

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection [maturity]; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. (KJV)

Then why do so many Christians never get past repentance, baptism, and these other principles.

Second part of the question, if those who are ready for strong meat move on, what is it they move on to?

Blessings

They never get past repentance for many reasons.Maybe their pastor don't teach you must not keep laying the foundation of repentance.Most teach we repent every day.That is not true.You may have to confess a sin or two each week but not repent.There is a big differance between repentance and confess a sin.Repentance is when you do a sin over and over,you must repent (stop that sin).Confess is when you sin a different sin now and then but don't do it by habit,you confess it.
Then there are som who just don't want to repent of all sin.

You move on to knowledge.Strong meat is knowledge.You move on to more and more knowledge.

Someone who is at full age (perfect)is someone who don't sin by habit,that is do a same sin over and over.Someone who is not carnal (worldly) sins by habit.

1 Cor.2:6: Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

3: 1: And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2: I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3: For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Heb.5:12: For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13: For every one that useth milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14: But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age,(Perfect,don't sin by habit) even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
6:1: Therefore leaving the principles (of having to be taught again )of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection;(to where you don't sin by habit) not laying again the foundation of repentance (turning from sin)from dead works(sin), and of faith toward God,
2: Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3: And this will we do, if God permit

[Joelel]

While I agree with your premise that we are to become teachers and that all teaching is not done by the five fold, it would be hard to extrapolate that position from this text.

The word “perfect” in verse 5:9 referring to Jesus, the term “full of age” in verse 5:14, and the word “perfect” in verse 6:1 are all translated from variations of the same word which means to complete or be a completer. The course of discussion in this verse is not the training up of others, but not falling away of oneself.

The reference in 5:12 that you mentioned is in relation to a person not growing up spiritually. That instead of being in a position of a teacher you are still a babe and in need of a teacher. The insertion of chapter six was a horrible place to put a new chapter because a new subject is never started with the word “therefore.” I like the old saying, “when you see the word ‘therefore’ stop and see what it’s there for.” It is tying one thought to another.

The connection would then seem to be saying if you are going to complete what you started, coming into spiritual maturity, you are going to have to leave the elementary principles and move into deeper truths.

Hi,Chapters are not in the Greek and Hebrew.The chapters was put in by carnal man and most starting of chapters by carnal man is incorrect.

What the writter is saying here is,You should have been by this time taught deep knowledge and be teaching others but because you have not repented,you need to repent first.Knowledge can't be given to you untill you repent.

[gloryseeker]

Interesting thoughts between the last two posts...I think the only thing I agree with is that chapters were not in the Greek and Hebrew texts. However, I do applaud you for basing your thesis on scripture and not just opinion.

[Joelel]

Interesting thoughts between the last two posts...I think the only thing I agree with is that chapters were not in the Greek and Hebrew texts. However, I do applaud you for basing your thesis on scripture and not just opinion.

If you look at all the scripture here we see the problem is with repenting.You can't go into meat or knowledge if you don't first stay repented.Once a person gets to a high level of knowledge and then if they fall back into sin they can't repent.

11: Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. WHY ?


12: For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13: For every one that useth milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14: But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil

1: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2: Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3: And this will we do, if God permit.
4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7: For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9: But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10: For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11: And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end

[gloryseeker]

I agree with your first paragraph and staying repented. I am in 100% agreement there. I actually agree with some of your other points, but you skip over the part that really defines what is being said here:

"Therefore, leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, Let us go unto perfection..."

Based upon how it is said, in order to move into perfection (this assumes the person is living a repented life) one has to get beyond the basic principles. My translation as crude as it may be...if all you do is study how to be saved you are never going to walk in the salvation. At some point you are going to have to learn how to walk in power, authority, and the dominion that Christ provided for us."

[Joelel]

I agree with your first paragraph and staying repented. I am in 100% agreement there. I actually agree with some of your other points, but you skip over the part that really defines what is being said here:

"Therefore, leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, Let us go unto perfection..."

Based upon how it is said, in order to move into perfection (this assumes the person is living a repented life) one has to get beyond the basic principles. My translation as crude as it may be...if all you do is study how to be saved you are never going to walk in the salvation. At some point you are going to have to learn how to walk in power, authority, and the dominion that Christ provided for us."

The first principles of the oracles of God is that you be taught.He is saying they should be past being taught theirselves and have stayed repented and go on to perfection.We are perfected by hearing the truth of the word and obeying it.

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works

Eph.4:11: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12: For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ

[gloryseeker]

Eph 4:11 was a good tie in. What was the perfecting of the saints for? Answer: the work of the ministry. Is the work of the ministry just getting people saved, or is there more work of the ministry than that??

Verse 13 talks about the unity of faith AND the knowledge of the Son of God...Hosea declared that God's people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge. Peter declared that God has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of Him.

Hmmmmm, most Christians don't have all the things that God has given to them, which means that they must not have full knowledge of Him. So does that bring us back to my original question or moving on to deeper things?

[Joelel]

Eph 4:11 was a good tie in. What was the perfecting of the saints for? Answer: the work of the ministry. Is the work of the ministry just getting people saved, or is there more work of the ministry than that??

Verse 13 talks about the unity of faith AND the knowledge of the Son of God...Hosea declared that God's people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge. Peter declared that God has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of Him.

Hmmmmm, most Christians don't have all the things that God has given to them, which means that they must not have full knowledge of Him. So does that bring us back to my original question or moving on to deeper things?

Hi Glory Seeker,It is very nice talking with you.
Yes the ministry is for getting people saved and to bring the people into unity and perfection by knowledge.People will not be in unity if they don't have knowledge of truth.That's why there is so much division among the people.Knowldge perfects people by bringing them to where they never sin or sin very little.The reason the people are in the mess there in is because we have people setting themselves as ministers and pastors when God didn't call them.They are being taught by man things that are not true and they are weak themselves.They can't get people perfected when they need perfected themselves.

Yes people are destroyed for lack of knowledge and he went on to say because they reject knowledge they shall be no minister.

Right,the people don't have knowledge of the deep things of God and don't have the ministry to teach them because they need to be taught themselves.

[gloryseeker]

Interesting discussion Joelel. I guess the only thing I may disagree with on your last post is that I think ministry is more than getting people saved. There obviously is the ministry of reconciliation, which we are all called to (2 Cor 5:18), but ministry is serving. As I see it, that serving aspect of it encompasses all aspects of life even when we are not saving people. It's a lifestyle that should manifest in the workplace, the marketplace, to the heathen and to the believer.

I don't think division arises so much from a lack of truth as it does from our unwillingness to know that truth comes through revelation. In the theoretical ladder to heaven, we are all at different levels of maturity, understanding, and so forth. We too often condemn those who are seeking Jesus as heretics because they don't interpret the scriptures in the same light that we understand them.

I have long been a believer that we can only change ourselves. We must walk in love, edify, help and those allow the Holy Spirit to correct those who understand differently. Unity starts with ourselves not with the other person that we perceive has a wrong understanding.

[Joelel]

Interesting discussion Joelel. I guess the only thing I may disagree with on your last post is that I think ministry is more than getting people saved. There obviously is the ministry of reconciliation, which we are all called to (2 Cor 5:18), but ministry is serving. As I see it, that serving aspect of it encompasses all aspects of life even when we are not saving people. It's a lifestyle that should manifest in the workplace, the marketplace, to the heathen and to the believer.

I don't think division arises so much from a lack of truth as it does from our unwillingness to know that truth comes through revelation. In the theoretical ladder to heaven, we are all at different levels of maturity, understanding, and so forth. We too often condemn those who are seeking Jesus as heretics because they don't interpret the scriptures in the same light that we understand them.

I have long been a believer that we can only change ourselves. We must walk in love, edify, help and those allow the Holy Spirit to correct those who understand differently. Unity starts with ourselves not with the other person that we perceive has a wrong understanding.

Hi,Amen I agree,Read the first part of my post,I said the ministry is more then getting people saved.It is teaching them knowledge also.Getting them rooted in truth brings unity.If we all have the same understanding of truth there will be no division.The Spirit gives understanding,revelation,we can't make people understand.

Amen, There obviously is the ministry of reconciliation, which we are all called to (2 Cor 5:18), but ministry is serving. As I see it, that serving aspect of it encompasses all aspects of life even when we are not saving people. It's a lifestyle that should manifest in the workplace, the marketplace, to the heathen and to the believer

Amen,I don't think division arises so much from a lack of truth as it does from our unwillingness to know that truth comes through revelation. In the theoretical ladder to heaven, we are all at different levels of maturity, understanding, and so forth. We too often condemn those who are seeking Jesus as heretics because they don't interpret the scriptures in the same light that we understand them.

Amen,I have long been a believer that we can only change ourselves. We must walk in love, edify, help and those allow the Holy Spirit to correct those who understand differently. Unity starts with ourselves not with the other person that we perceive has a wrong understanding

[A_PoMo]

It seems to me that Christian maturity is about putting on Christ, which is to say spiritual transformation into Christ-likeness. It seems that most of Christ's ministry was geared toward getting people to live according to the spirit of the law which is loving God and loving other people. Keeping in mind that sin is real and salvation is necessary for all men, I don't think though that salvation was Christ's ultimate end. I disagree with Calvin and Luther that the salvation of men is the ultimate purpose of God's providence. Salvation of men was the starting point of his ministry. He wanted people to turn to God so that they would serve Him and serve others in love and in doing so expand His kingdom on earth. His was a revolution of the spirit that called men to leave the philosophies and values of the world and instead take on the values and world view of God (i.e. wisdom through understanding) and live this way in worship to Him through service to others. So today examples of maturity beyond mere plans of salvation and manifestations of initial signs of gifts would probably be service to our faith and civic communities, rejection of materialism and consumerism that is destroying our culture, rejection of extreme nationalism that has become and idol to too many in our country and instead learning to humble ourselves in prayer and service and stand up for the things of God by internalizing them and living lives of service and relative simplicity in a culture that is narcissistic and overly complex. In my opinion, the job of the ministry is to model this and to preach it and teach it and to prepare people for their place in the plan of God in this regard.

[gloryseeker]

Powerful point: "Salvation of men was the starting point of his ministry"

[Joelel]

The word perfect, meaning is full grown,we grow in perfection and to a greater perfection.

Cor.2:6: Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are PERFECT: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory

Eph:4:11: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;12:For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ

13:Till we all come in the unity (ONE) of the FAITH, and of the KNOWLEDGE of the Son of God, unto a PERFECT man, unto the MEASURE of the STATURE of the FULLNESS of Christ:

Heb.10:14: For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

We grow into a greater state of perfection.Heb.6:1: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works (sin), and of faith toward God


Luke8:14: And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection

2 Cor.7:1: Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

1 John 2:5: But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John4:12: No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

17: Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18: There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

1 Peter5:10: But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

James2:22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Heb.12:22: But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23: To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb.2:10: For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.


1 Thes.3:10: Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?

Col.1:28: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

John17:22: And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Math.48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect

1 John 2:1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

5: But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected:(full grown) hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John3:3: And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Eph.5:26: That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word (seed,knowledge), 27: That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish

[Joelel]

We must be born of the word as well as being born of the water and Spirit.Once we are born of the Spirit then the Spirit will teach us all truth and we become born of the word.Please note words ,Seed and word and born.The seed is the word of God.

Luke 8:11: Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.12: Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13: They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

14: And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

2 Cor.3:3: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ (word)ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Gal.4:19: My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ (word) be formed in you,

1 Peter 122: Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth(word) through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:23: Being born again, not of corruptible seed,(WORD) but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Eph.5:25: Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;26: That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,(SEED)27: That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

1 John 2:5: But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1John 3:9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed (word) remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1John 4:7: Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God,(THE WORD) and knoweth God.8: He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.9: In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10: Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.11: Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.12: No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1John5:1: Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:(THE WORD) and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.2: By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3: For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.4: For whatsoever is born of God (THE WORD)overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 John5:18: We know that whosoever is born of God (THE WORD)sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


Cor.13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity,( Perfected love) I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, (Perfected love) I am nothing.

13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity,(Perfected Love) it profiteth me nothing.13:4 Charity (Perfected Love)suffereth long, and is kind; charity(Perfected Love) envieth not; charity (perfected Love)vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.13:8 Charity (Perfected Love)never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away (WHEN WE ARE NOT PERFECTED IN LOVE).13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

13:10 But when that which is perfect (Perfected Love)is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.13:11 When I was a child, ( Not perfect in love)I spake as a child,(Not perfect in love) I understood as a child,(not perfect in love) I thought as a child: (not Perfect in love)but when I became a man,(became perfect in love) I put away childish things.

13:12 For now(before we became perfect) we see through a glass, darkly; but then(when we became perfect) face to face: now I know(When i'm not perfect) in part; but then(when i become perfect) shall I know even as also I am known.13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity,( perfect love) these three; but the greatest of these is charity. (Perfected love)