View Full Version : Did this take place in the past ?
Joelel
02-18-2008, 02:25 PM
Did the underlined take place in thhe past ?
2 Thessalonians, chapter 2
1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5: Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6: And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13: But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16: Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17: Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
ApostolicTexas
02-18-2008, 08:45 PM
Pay attention to verse #6..What did Paul tell them?
and now YE KNOW...these thessalonians KNEW what/who the restrainer was that was holding back..and this was 2000 years ago...so the anwser is Yes..
Beard
02-18-2008, 09:51 PM
No, it has not taken place yet..the man of sin has not been revealed yet...the Wicked has not been revealed yet...the Lord Jesus has not destroyed Satan with the brightness of his coming yet (Satan being destroyed on the cross by the crucifixion and shedding of Jesus' blood is not the same physical time as the final destruction of Satan at Jesus' coming)...the Day of Christ is still at hand when we will be gathered unto him...Jesus is, was, and is to come. That which is, has been, and will be in the future...according to the will and purpose of God from the foundation of the world to the final consummation and full revelation of the name of JESUS
mfblume
02-18-2008, 09:59 PM
And the debate never ends....
It takes a rare person to be able to speak an opinion to those of unlike beliefs, and convince them, having cast away walls of disagreement. Most people only can succeed in preaching to their personal choir camps. They're too blunt and non-approachable.
Joelel
02-18-2008, 10:05 PM
Pay attention to verse #6..What did Paul tell them?
and now YE KNOW...these thessalonians KNEW what/who the restrainer was that was holding back..and this was 2000 years ago...so the anwser is Yes..
Please answer all these questions.So are you saying this took place back then because they knew back then what withholdeth ? Verse 6, You tell me what is that,that withholdeth ? Verse 3,Who is the man of sin ? Verse 9,When did the Lord come and destroy with the brightness of his coming ?
2 Thessalonians, chapter 2
1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5: Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6: And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Joelel
02-18-2008, 10:09 PM
No, it has not taken place yet..the man of sin has not been revealed yet...the Wicked has not been revealed yet...the Lord Jesus has not destroyed Satan with the brightness of his coming yet (Satan being destroyed on the cross by the crucifixion and shedding of Jesus' blood is not the same physical time as the final destruction of Satan at Jesus' coming)...the Day of Christ is still at hand when we will be gathered unto him...Jesus is, was, and is to come. That which is, has been, and will be in the future...according to the will and purpose of God from the foundation of the world to the final consummation and full revelation of the name of JESUS
I agree,LOL
Joelel
02-18-2008, 10:14 PM
And the debate never ends....
It takes a rare person to be able to speak an opinion to those of unlike beliefs, and convince them, having cast away walls of disagreement. Most people only can succeed in preaching to their personal choir camps. They're too blunt and non-approachable.
This is happening to the preterist now and many others.
2 Thes.2:10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13: But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth
mfblume
02-19-2008, 01:41 AM
This is happening to the preterist now and many others.
2 Thes.2:10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13: But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth
I can say it has actually happened to you. But that would convince neither you anyone else of anything. Joelel, you need to learn this. It's just empty words speaking as you do. PROVE something, for goodness' sake.
Beard
02-19-2008, 09:28 AM
It is a matter of revelation, not just the hashing out of the letter of the Word. Let each be settled in his or her own mind, for each will give account...I don't think that any preacher/saint in the earth has reached perfection of revelation yet, but it is a work in progress...
mfblume
02-19-2008, 11:51 AM
It is a matter of revelation, not just the hashing out of the letter of the Word. Let each be settled in his or her own mind, for each will give account...I don't think that any preacher/saint in the earth has reached perfection of revelation yet, but it is a work in progress...
Exactly. And it is also a revelatory minister who can tear down walls of disagreement and reveal truth to people about these things. But hashing out "You are deceived," and "No, you are," is certainly a waste of time. :)
Beard
02-19-2008, 03:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beard
It is a matter of revelation, not just the hashing out of the letter of the Word. Let each be settled in his or her own mind, for each will give account...I don't think that any preacher/saint in the earth has reached perfection of revelation yet, but it is a work in progress...
mfblume:
Exactly. And it is also a revelatory minister who can tear down walls of disagreement and reveal truth to people about these things. But hashing out "You are deceived," and "No, you are," is certainly a waste of time.
Amen...agreed. There will come a time when all shall know Him; from the least to the greatest; for the knowledge of the glory of the Lord shall fill the earth. We all know and agree that there is no name other than Jesus; not only in this world, but in the one to come. However, there is a new name written in a white stone that only he knows that receives it; just as Jesus has a name written that only he knows. This speaks to us as to revelation in knowing these things. Some will believe that only Acts 2:38 is salvation in totality rather than a necessity to overcome to the end, receiving those things of faith to full maturity. One thing is for sure, Jesus is not coming back for a church that is bickering and backbiting, but for a glorious church; for a bride who is a mirror image of Himself. I appreciate your knowledge of the Word....
Joelel
02-19-2008, 04:54 PM
I can say it has actually happened to you. But that would convince neither you anyone else of anything. Joelel, you need to learn this. It's just empty words speaking as you do. PROVE something, for goodness' sake.
You said you put me on ignor,keep your word please.
Lafon
02-19-2008, 06:44 PM
It is my opinion that the events which Paul outlined in II Thessalonians chapter two have NOT yet taken place, rather they are to transpire in the future (and this perhaps even sooner than one might even imagine).
The primary reason why I embrace this belief is based first upon the words of verse #1, for it is explicitly stated that the things which he desired to relate concerned those events which are to precede "...the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him." Is not the fact that we (that is, the members of His church) are still present upon the earth, and NOT "together" with Him, sufficient evidence to establish this beyond disputation? I certainly think so!
Now there are certainly many more reasons why I embrace the belief that the events which Paul outlined in this chapter of his 2nd epistle to the saints of Thessalonica are futuristic, but seeing that the question only concerns that of the "timing" for the fulfillment of these things, then nothing more regarding this matter shall be forthcoming (at least for now). If there are other questions concerning some of the particular, and peculiar events which are to precede and surround the event of our Lord's return, then that is another matter altogether.
Arphaxad
02-19-2008, 07:57 PM
I believe the falling away has started in the past, when the doctrine of the trinity became the "official" Christian view. The man of sin has yet to be revealed though.
ARPH :doggyrun
mfblume
02-20-2008, 01:21 AM
2 Thess 1 teaches that God would recompense tribulation on the troublers of the church, when Jesus would come to be glorified in his saints. How could he recompense tribulation on the persecutors of the Thessalonians 2,000 years ago, if that coming is in our future?
mfblume
02-20-2008, 01:22 AM
You said you put me on ignor,keep your word please.
THAT is your response? :)
ApostolicTexas
02-20-2008, 06:55 PM
Please answer all these questions.So are you saying this took place back then because they knew back then what withholdeth ? Verse 6, You tell me what is that,that withholdeth ? Verse 3,Who is the man of sin ? Verse 9,When did the Lord come and destroy with the brightness of his coming ?
2 Thessalonians, chapter 2
1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5: Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6: And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
All I CAN tell you is the thessalonians KNEW..who it/what was..as evident in verse 6..People cannot see how the New Testament was written to an original audience.those letters had original adresses.I know this is hard to understand but it is the truth.Why would Paul write to those churches If He had a audience in mind 2000 years later? does not make sense..
Joelel
02-20-2008, 07:51 PM
Compare the greek script to up to date Eng.
2 Thessalonians 2
1BUT RELATIVE to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and our gathering together to [meet] Him, we beg you, brethren,
2Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived and is here.
3Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the [a]apostasy comes first falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),(A)
4Who opposes and exalts himself so proudly and insolently against and over all that is called God or that is worshiped, [even to his actually] taking his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming that he himself is God.(B)
5Do you not recollect that when I was still with you, I told you these things?
6And now you know what is restraining him [from being revealed at this time]; it is so that he may be manifested (revealed) in his own [appointed] time.
7For the mystery of lawlessness (that hidden principle of rebellion against constituted authority) is already at work in the world, restrained only until [c]he who restrains is taken out of the way.
8And then the lawless one (the antichrist) will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by His appearing at His coming.(C)
9The coming [of the lawless one, the antichrist] is through the activity and working of Satan and will be attended by great power and with all sorts of [pretended] miracles and signs and delusive marvels--[all of them] lying wonders--
(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) 2 Thessalonians 2:1 | erwtwmen <2065> (5719) de <1161> {NOW WE BESEECH} umaV <5209> {YOU,} adelfoi <80> {BRETHERN,} uper <5228> {BY} thV <3588> {THE} parousiaV <3952> tou <3588> {COMING} kuriou <2962> hmwn <2257> {OF OUR LORD} ihsou <2424> {JESUS} cristou <5547> {CHRIST} kai <2532> {AND} hmwn <2257> {OUR} episunagwghV <1997> {GATHERING TOGETHER} ep <1909> {TO} auton <846> {HIM,} 2 eiV <1519> to <3588> {FOR} mh <3361> {NOT} tacewV <5030> {QUICKLY} saleuqhnai <4531> (5683) {TO BE SHAKEN} umaV <5209> {YOU} apo <575> tou <3588> {IN} nooV <3563> {MIND,} mhte <3383> {NOR} qroeisqai <2360> (5745) {TO BE TROUBLED,} mhte <3383> {NEITHER} dia <1223> {BY} pneumatoV <4151> {SPIRIT,} mhte <3383> {NOR} dia <1223> {BY} logou <3056> {WORD,} mhte <3383> {NOR} di <1223> {BY} epistolhV <1992> {EPISTLE,} wV <5613> [B][U]{AS IF} di <1223> {BY} hmwn <2257> {US,} wV <5613> {AS} oti <3754> {THAT} enesthken <1764> (5758) {IS PRESENT} h <3588> {THE} hmera <2250> {DAY} tou <3588> {OF THE} cristou <5547> {CHRIST.} 3 | mh <3361> {NOT} tiV <5100> {ANYONE} umaV <5209> {YOU} exapathsh <1818> (5661) {SHOULD DECEIVE} kata <2596> {IN} mhdena <3367> {ANY} tropon <5158> {WAY,} oti <3754> {BECAUSE [IT WILL NOT BE]} ean <1437> mh <3361> {UNLESS} elqh <2064> (5632) {SHALL HAVE COME} h <3588> {THE} apostasia <646> {APOSTASY} prwton <4412> {FIRST,} kai <2532> {AND} apokalufqh <601> (5686) {SHALL HAVE BEEN REVEALED} o <3588> {THE} anqrwpoV <444> thV <3588> {MAN} amartiaV <266> {OF SIN,} o <3588> {THE} uioV <5207> thV <3588> {SON} apwleiaV <684> {OF PERDITION,} 4 o <3588> {HE WHO} antikeimenoV <480> (5740) {OPPOSES} kai <2532> {AND} uperairomenoV <5229> (5746) {EXALTS HIMSELF} epi <1909> {ABOVE} panta <3956> {ALL} legomenon <3004> (5746) {CALLED} qeon <2316> {GOD} h <2228> {OR} sebasma <4574> {OBJECT OF VENERATION:} wste <5620> auton <846> {SO AS FOR HIM} eiV <1519> {IN} ton <3588> {THE} naon <3485> tou <3588> {TEMPLE} qeou <2316> {OF GOD} wV <5613> {AS} qeon <2316> {GOD} kaqisai <2523> (5658) {TO SIT DOWN,} apodeiknunta <584> (5723) {SETTING FORTH} eauton <1438> {HIMSELF} oti <3754> {THAT} estin <2076> (5748) {HE IS} qeoV <2316> {GOD.} 5 ou <3756> mnhmoneuete <3421> (5719) {DO YE NOT REMEMBER} oti <3754> {THAT,} eti <2089> {YET} wn <5607> (5752) {BEING} proV <4314> {WITH} umaV <5209> {YOU,} tauta <5023> {THESE THINGS} elegon <3004> (5707) {I SAID} umin <5213> {TO YOU?} 6 kai <2532> {AND} nun <3568> {NOW} to <3588> {THAT WHICH} katecon <2722> (5723) {RESTRAINS} oidate <1492> (5758) {YE KNOW,} eiV <1519> to <3588> {FOR} apokalufqhnai <601> (5683) {TO BE REVEALED} auton <846> {HIM} en <1722> {IN} tw <3588> eautou <1438> {HIS OWN} kairw <2540> {TIME.} 7 to <3588> gar <1063> {FOR THE} musthrion <3466> {MYSTERY} hdh <2235> {ALREADY} energeitai <1754> (5731) thV <3588> {IS WORKING} anomiaV <458> {OF LAWLESSNESS;} monon <3440> {ONLY [THERE IS]} o <3588> {HE WHO} katecwn <2722> (5723) {RESTRAINS} arti <737> {AT PRESENT} ewV <2193> {UNTIL} ek <1537> {OUT OF [THE]} mesou <3319> {MIDST} genhtai <1096> (5638) {HE BE [GONE],} 8 kai <2532> {AND} tote <5119> {THEN} apokalufqhsetai <601> (5701) {WILL BE REVEALED} o <3588> {THE} anomoV <459> {LAWLESS [ONE],} on <3739> {WHOM} o <3588> {THE} kurioV <2962> {LORD} analwsei <355> (5692) {WILL CONSUME} tw <3588> {WITH THE} pneumati <4151> {BREATH} tou <3588> stomatoV <4750> autou <846> {OF HIS MOUTH,} kai <2532> {AND} katarghsei <2673> (5692) {ANNUL} th <3588> {BY THE} epifaneia <2015> {APPEARING} thV <3588> parousiaV <3952> autou <846> {OF HIS COMING;} 9 ou <3739> {WHOSE} estin <2076> (5748) h <3588> {IS} parousia <3952> {COMING} kat <2596> {ACCORDING TO [THE]} energeian <1753> tou <3588> {WORKING} satana <4567> {OF SATAN} en <1722> {IN} pash <3956> {EVERY} dunamei <1411> {POWER} kai <2532> {AND} shmeioiV <4592> {SIGNS} kai <2532> {AND} terasin <5059> {WONDERS} yeudouV <5579> {OF FALSEHOOD,}
Joelel
02-20-2008, 08:07 PM
Note verse 1 and 8.When did Jesus come ? He didn't.To say Jesus came and did this is an other prederist lie.
2 Thessalonians, chapter 2
1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that (IF)the day of Christ is at hand.
3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5: Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6: And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
ApostolicTexas
02-22-2008, 07:07 PM
Note verse 1 and 8.When did Jesus come ? He didn't.To say Jesus came and did this is an other prederist lie.
2 Thessalonians, chapter 2
1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that (IF)the day of Christ is at hand.
3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5: Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6: And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
What you fail to see is "audience revelance"to whom was this Epistle originally wrote too?Who was the original audience?Why would Paul write to this church if this was meant for another church 2000 years later?
staysharp
02-22-2008, 07:21 PM
Joeel, if you really are serious about learning and expanding your knowledge, then consider varying views without attacking the messenger. You may learn somethings you never knew. This website answers alot of questions that you may or may not agree with. However, read it and make an objective conclusion without all the drama.
http://www.preterist.org/
Bowas
02-22-2008, 08:08 PM
Note verse 1 and 8.When did Jesus come ? He didn't.To say Jesus came and did this is an other prederist lie.
2 Thessalonians, chapter 2
1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that (IF)the day of Christ is at hand.
3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5: Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6: And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
The one thing that stands out to me is in reading Paul's address to this church and the obvious concern that they had concerning the "coming of the Lord and the gathering together" is this.
It does not appear to be talking about the rapture, due to the fact Paul's proof the day of the Lord had not arrived was that the "wicked be revealed". If the concern of that church was the rapture, there no doubt would have been exterme urgency in his response, that I do not think a letter (which takes time to arrive) would have stop that church from going into a panic, if they thought they had in fact missed the rapture.
Also note, If the concern was of the rapture had already past, Paul should have just said, "Look here guys, you are still here and more importantly, I am still here, that is proof enough the rapture has not taken place."
Instead, he used identifiers, they knew would happen for them to be aware of, obviously because they needed to be reminded.
Once again, there was no panic from the church that they had missed the rapture, just an apparent misidentifiing of the events of the time, as to the Lord coming in judgement at that time against those opposing the church.
Lord Bless
ApostolicTexas
02-22-2008, 08:49 PM
The one thing that stands out to me is in reading Paul's address to this church and the obvious concern that they had concerning the "coming of the Lord and the gathering together" is this.
It does not appear to be talking about the rapture, due to the fact Paul's proof the day of the Lord had not arrived was that the "wicked be revealed". If the concern of that church was the rapture, there no doubt would have been exterme urgency in his response, that I do not think a letter (which takes time to arrive) would have stop that church from going into a panic, if they thought they had in fact missed the rapture.
Also note, If the concern was of the rapture had already past, Paul should have just said, "Look here guys, you are still here and more importantly, I am still here, that is proof enough the rapture has not taken place."
Instead, he used identifiers, they knew would happen for them to be aware of, obviously because they needed to be reminded.
Once again, there was no panic from the church that they had missed the rapture, just an apparent misidentifiing of the events of the time, as to the Lord coming in judgement at that time against those opposing the church.
Lord Bless
Also..if the 2nd coming was earth burning earth shattering stars falling from the sky etc [you know the doom and gloom effect} then these thessalonians would not wonder if they had missed the rapture..:)
Bowas
02-22-2008, 08:53 PM
Also..if the 2nd coming was earth burning earth shattering stars falling from the sky etc [you know the doom and gloom effect} then these thessalonians would not wonder if they had missed the rapture..:)
Now ye done went an' messed up, all what we been taught.
You stop that now!
mfblume
02-23-2008, 03:59 PM
At least spell "preterist" right, Joelel. lol
prederist lie.
Folks, some do not want to seriously consider anything different than what they already believe. Biased and closed minded.
Joelel
02-24-2008, 05:19 PM
What you fail to see is "audience revelance"to whom was this Epistle originally wrote too?Who was the original audience?Why would Paul write to this church if this was meant for another church 2000 years later?
No,Paul wrote to the whole church,not just that assembly.We are the church today too.
Joelel
02-24-2008, 05:25 PM
Joeel, if you really are serious about learning and expanding your knowledge, then consider varying views without attacking the messenger. You may learn somethings you never knew. This website answers alot of questions that you may or may not agree with. However, read it and make an objective conclusion without all the drama.
http://www.preterist.org/
No thanks,I learned all I need to learn about the predators.Main Entry: pred·a·tor
Pronunciation: \ˈpre-də-tər, -ˌtȯr\
Function: noun
Date: 1912
1 : one that preys, destroys, or devours
2 : an animal that lives by predation
Joelel
02-24-2008, 05:31 PM
The one thing that stands out to me is in reading Paul's address to this church and the obvious concern that they had concerning the "coming of the Lord and the gathering together" is this.
It does not appear to be talking about the rapture, due to the fact Paul's proof the day of the Lord had not arrived was that the "wicked be revealed". If the concern of that church was the rapture, there no doubt would have been exterme urgency in his response, that I do not think a letter (which takes time to arrive) would have stop that church from going into a panic, if they thought they had in fact missed the rapture.
Also note, If the concern was of the rapture had already past, Paul should have just said, "Look here guys, you are still here and more importantly, I am still here, that is proof enough the rapture has not taken place."
Instead, he used identifiers, they knew would happen for them to be aware of, obviously because they needed to be reminded.
Once again, there was no panic from the church that they had missed the rapture, just an apparent misidentifiing of the events of the time, as to the Lord coming in judgement at that time against those opposing the church.
Lord Bless
Look,he said be not shaken as if it is at hand.He didn't say it was at hand.
2 Thessalonians, chapter 2
1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that (IF)the day of Christ is at hand.
Joelel
02-24-2008, 05:48 PM
Also..if the 2nd coming was earth burning earth shattering stars falling from the sky etc [you know the doom and gloom effect} then these thessalonians would not wonder if they had missed the rapture..:)
Yelp,sure enough,that's what's going to happen,it sure didn't happen back then.Some say they are in the new heaven and earth now,if they were in it I wonder why they were looking for it ? Oops..2Pet.3
[1] This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
[2] That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
[3] Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
[4] And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
[5] For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
[6] Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
[7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
[10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
[13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
[14] Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
[15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
[17] Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
[18] But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen
Joelel
02-24-2008, 05:53 PM
At least spell "preterist" right, Joelel. lol
Folks, some do not want to seriously consider anything different than what they already believe. Biased and closed minded.
Sorry I got part of the spelling wrong.Predator.Main Entry: pred·a·tor
Pronunciation: \ˈpre-də-tər, -ˌtȯr\
Function: noun
Date: 1912
1 : one that preys, destroys, or devours
2 : an animal that lives by predation
onlygrace
02-24-2008, 06:57 PM
No,Paul wrote to the whole church,not just that assembly.We are the church today too.
So, you pastor in Thessalonia?:ursofunny
Joelel
02-24-2008, 07:05 PM
So, you pastor in Thessalonia?:ursofunny
The same Spirit that is in me was in the apostles then.When they preached and wrote letters it was the Spirit in them preaching and writting the same as he is writting and preaches for me.
ApostolicTexas
02-24-2008, 08:45 PM
The same Spirit that is in me was in the apostles then.When they preached and wrote letters it was the Spirit in them preaching and writting the same as he is writting and preaches for me.
So Joel..if you believe Paul was writing to you too back then I will suppose this scripture was written directly to you also
1 cor 15:1-6
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
If we were to read and believe scripture like you do Joel..then we should be able to find some of the witnesses who saw Christ after his ressurection and they should be alive today somewhere in this world..:)
mfblume
02-24-2008, 08:51 PM
The same Spirit that is in me was in the apostles then.When they preached and wrote letters it was the Spirit in them preaching and writting the same as he is writting and preaches for me.
You have to be correct for this to be true of you. And that is questionable. It's not true just because you say it is, you know. ;) Mormons think God is speaking to them.
By their FRUITS we shall know the true and false. I see little fruit of the Spirit in your attacking words, bro.
2 Timothy 2:24 KJV And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
Joelel
02-25-2008, 12:04 AM
You have to be correct for this to be true of you. And that is questionable. It's not true just because you say it is, you know. ;) Mormons think God is speaking to them.
By their FRUITS we shall know the true and false. I see little fruit of the Spirit in your attacking words, bro.
2 Timothy 2:24 KJV And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
So you think Jesus had bad fruit when he called people vipers,he ment what he said and I mean what I say,preterists are predators,deceivers and perverts and liars and I'm not your bro.This is gentle,get behind me satan.
Bowas
02-25-2008, 12:37 PM
Look,he said be not shaken as if it is at hand.He didn't say it was at hand.
2 Thessalonians, chapter 2
1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that (IF)the day of Christ is at hand.
Go do a study as to why Paul felt a need to write this particular letter to this particular church at this particular time, and you will find they believed
the "day of the Lord" was upon them and perhaps had already happened or began. Read any commentary. Why would Paul instruct them it was not at hand if they were convinced it was? Why would he even mention it all? What is the purpose of the words to them?
Lord Bless.
mfblume
02-25-2008, 02:53 PM
So you think Jesus had bad fruit when he called people vipers,he ment what he said and I mean what I say,preterists are predators,deceivers and perverts and liars and I'm not your bro.This is gentle,get behind me satan.
Case closed.
I see you made my point for me.
Jesus did not call sincere people, whom He thought were mistaken, vipers. He called people who purposely twisted scripture those labels. I am sincere in what I believe and not twisting anything that I know is twisting.
Your bad fruit betrays your heart:
Matthew 7:15-20 KJV Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. (16) Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? (17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. (18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. (19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
The Lord, not me, judge you according to refusing to call me "brother". God have mercy.
Joelel
02-25-2008, 06:27 PM
It is a matter of revelation, not just the hashing out of the letter of the Word. Let each be settled in his or her own mind, for each will give account...I don't think that any preacher/saint in the earth has reached perfection of revelation yet, but it is a work in progress...
Amen
Joelel
02-25-2008, 08:16 PM
Phil.3
[2] Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Matt.7
[6] Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Scott Hutchinson
02-25-2008, 08:31 PM
I don't have all of the answers but why were verses like this written to first-century Christians ?
Be ye also patient :for the coming of The Lord of The Lord draweth nigh.James 5:8
Did James lie if a coming of The Lord was not nigh for them ?
Does Nigh mean mean near ?
I'm not the brighset bulb on the string,but why mention this in a general epistle if it had no relevance to those whom it was originally addressed to ?
Bowas
02-25-2008, 08:54 PM
Phil.3
[2] Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Matt.7
[6] Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Oh, my!
Joelel
02-25-2008, 08:57 PM
Case closed.
I see you made my point for me.
Jesus did not call sincere people, whom He thought were mistaken, vipers. He called people who purposely twisted scripture those labels. I am sincere in what I believe and not twisting anything that I know is twisting.
Your bad fruit betrays your heart:
Matthew 7:15-20 KJV Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. (16) Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? (17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. (18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. (19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
The Lord, not me, judge you according to refusing to call me "brother". God have mercy.
A person who is deceived don't purposely twist scripture.A deceived person don't know their deceived.
Predators
2Tim.3
[1] This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
[2] For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
[3] Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
[4] Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
[5] Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
[6] For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
[7] Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
[8] Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
[9] But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
[10] But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
[11] Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
[12] Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
[13] But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
Bowas
02-25-2008, 09:00 PM
I don't have all of the answers but why were verses like this written to first-century Christians ?
Be ye also patient :for the coming of The Lord of The Lord draweth nigh.James 5:8
Did James lie if a coming of The Lord was not nigh for them ?
Does Nigh mean mean near ?
I'm not the brighset bulb on the string,but why mention this in a general epistle if it had no relevance to those whom it was originally addressed to ?
I have heard some say in regrds to nigh/near or at hand or soon to come etc. is merely to be taken from God's perspective, in that time means nothing to Him, so these terms are reletive to Him from His perspective and not the audience or the hearers of those words then.
Lord Bless
Joelel
02-25-2008, 09:28 PM
1John.4
[1] Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
[2] Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
[3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
[4] Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
[5] They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
[6] We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Fruit is what a person preaches.False preachers preach things not true,true preachers preach truth.By their fruit you shall know them.He that knows God hears us,hears truth.
See false preachers don't even understand this scripture.A good tree can only preach truth.A bad tree cannot preach truth.By what they preach you shall know them.Math 7:13: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15: Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16: Ye shall know them by their fruits,(what they preach). Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit(Truth); but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.(things not true) 18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
Joelel
02-25-2008, 09:53 PM
I don't have all of the answers but why were verses like this written to first-century Christians ?
Be ye also patient :for the coming of The Lord of The Lord draweth nigh.James 5:8
Did James lie if a coming of The Lord was not nigh for them ?
Does Nigh mean mean near ?
I'm not the brighset bulb on the string,but why mention this in a general epistle if it had no relevance to those whom it was originally addressed to ?
Yelp,sure is,every day that goes by draws us nearer and nearer to the comming of the Lord.The day of the Lord is at hand,dawing nearer and nearer.He wants all to come to repentance,he's giving them 2000 yrs.If they were all ready in the 1000 yrs.I wonder what they were looking for ?
2Pet.3
[1] This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
[2] That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
[3] Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
[4] And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
[5] For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
[6] Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
[7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.[10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
[13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
[14] Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
[15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
[17] Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
[18] But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
mfblume
02-25-2008, 10:03 PM
2 Thessalonians 3:1-2 KJV (1) Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: (2) And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
Everyone can quote scripture. whew
Joelel
02-25-2008, 10:15 PM
2 Thessalonians 3:1-2 KJV (1) Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: (2) And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
Everyone can quote scripture. whew
Yes deliever me oh Lord Please deliever me,I wonder if he heared you.Like my grammar ?
Sister Alvear
02-26-2008, 07:20 AM
With all respect to Brother Bloom....he is few of the people that teach this has already happened that I have DEEP respect for but I do not believe this has happened...
However nothing I would ever say would be personally against Brother Bloom and I do not think anyone that believes different should answer in a disrespectful attitude.
I really believe that many things are future however my opinion no matter how much I quote scripture is just an opinion among THOUSANDS of opinions.
I have read most of the elders writings and I see he is a very studied man....I am rally just a simple old missionary and when I express my self on any forum it is only MY personal opinion and my feelings about scriptures.
I really and honestly hope I am wrong for I see dark days ahead. Maybe living in a country that is so poor in many ways and full of communists ideas has shaped my opinion...however I yet believe the church will go through tribulation...
Sister Alvear
02-26-2008, 07:22 AM
and that is not a rebuke to anyone...I just am very tender hearted and hate to see brothers offended one another because of different veiws..
Friends, do pray for me. Thanks .
mfblume
02-26-2008, 12:16 PM
Sis Alvear,
I have great respect for you as well.
My views on prophecy once agreed with your own, however, I saw the church age is far more glorious now than what we have been taught. We can go much further in the Spirit than what dispensationalism has told us.
But your words are very true: Though all here may disagree, we are all still family in Christ, baptized in His Name, filled with His Spirit. Disagreement on prophecy does not negate our family membership. Some become personally offended and take their personal grudges into determining who and who not is saved.
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