State of the Forum Address

[OneAccord]

:preach
:fireworks State of the Forum Address :canada

Good evening, Ladies and Gentlemen,

I am not Administration. Nor am I an owner or moderator. I am a registered member. I joined this forum on Feb, 10, 2007 and, with this post, I will have posted 1080 times. This will be the 96th thread that I have started. Statistically, I average 2.87 posts per day.

The are a number of reasons people join internet forums. Those reasons vary widely depending on the type of forum one joins. This forum would be considered a religious forum. Specifically, it is an Apostolic Forum. That means, the ownership and the overwhelming majority of the members are members of the Apostolic Faith. They hold Acts 2:38 as the very foundation of their religious experience. Moving away from that foundation , however, we can begin to detect differences. Not divisions, but differing views. Is the Apostolic Friends Forum divided? Yes, but division is the very nature of public forums. People from all across America, from Canada, and from all points around the globe see the name of the forum, APOSTOLIC Friends Forum, and, because they desire fellowship and identity with like-minded brothers and sisters, they huddle together under the word APOSTOLIC like people under an umbrella trying to dodge a rain shower. It's while we wait for the rain to pass that we begin to talk. And, we discover that, though we share the same umbrella, there are differences in our beliefs. Sometimes, that talk develops into discussions, and rarely into debates. On even rarer occasions, conflicts develop and words are exchanged that cause anger and hurt feelings.

The thing to bear in mind is that, while there are differences among us, we are all huddled under one umbrella: APOSTOLIC. We all came here to seek refuge from the storms of life in general. The soaking rains of doubt, fear and unbelief are soaking a sinful world all around us, but here we are, safe and dry, protected, at least for a season, from the rigors of life. And, we are together. Just as Jesus intended when He prayed in the garden that we be one. How is it possible for such a diverse people to come together in unity and fellowship? Well, actually, it isn’t possible, at least not through human effort. A people long ago attempted to be one and build a tower to reach the heavens, and, because theirs was a human effort, the efforts were in vain. But God, in His infinite wisdom, provided the means for us to achieve that which is humanly impossible: the Holy Spirit. By the very Spirit of the Living God that dwells in our hearts, we have the means to become one in Christ. When you stop to think about it, there is no oneness outside of Christ. Denominations have been established to unite people, but they grow and fall, because, like the tower of Babel, denominations are human effort.

It was the Holy Ghost given at Pentecost that united the 120 there in Jerusalem. It was the Holy Spirit that added three thousand to the church then, and it is the Holy Ghost poured out down through the years that have added us to God’s Kingdom. We are a blessed people… we have what the world’s political machines cannot provide. We have unity. No, we may not always agree. Our doctrines may differ. Our belief system, developed, not by a manual or creed, but by a spiritual experience of being reborn into God’s Kingdom, may not always agree, but the Spirit within us does agree, bearing witness with our spirits that we are God’s children.

Of course, within our ranks, are labels. Personally, I despise the labels but have come to accept them as a necessary evil. We are known by our labels- our convictions are erroneously and wrongly judged by the labels pinned on us. Cons, Mods, and Libs. Our allegiance to the Lord Jesus is often questioned by these carnal labels, as if someone can see through the label and see the very intents of the heart. But, that isn’t possible. Only God sees the heart, and I suspect that when He looks at the heart of those who bear the name Christian, He sees His own reflection.

So what of these alleged “changes” in the Forum? I can recall just a few weeks ago when someone alluded to changes in the Forum. Some said the change was refreshing. Others said they like the changes. But now, more changes have come and some are concerned. Some see this as a beginning of the end for AFF. But, no, this forum, like all forums that go through change, will continue as is. It will grow. It will weather the storm. How? By those who huddle under the Apostolic umbrella. The truth is, the Forum can now say without reservation that it is “a place where Apostolics can communicate with freedom”. In reality, those words can be shouted because the recent changes open new doors of opportunity. There is, as someone recently posted, “a new breeze blowing” at the Apostolic Friends Forum. The rains beat around us, but, this Forum will weather this storm just as it has the storms of the past.

We regret losing these valued members. But, we support them in their decision by urging them to remain true to their convictions. We will miss their valued posts- but the Forum will live on. We will remain in One Accord, doing just what those words mean, “rushing forward, in unison”. The Forum will not rise like a Phoenix from the ashes, because it has never fallen. It stands today and for a long time to come as a shining example of what happens when God’s people come together in the Unity of the Spirit. God bless the Apostolic Friends Forum, and God bless the owners, moderators, and members of this great Forum!

[StillStanding]

Wow! Awesome post! :thumbsup

[CC1]

Excellent post OneAccordian. The check is in the mail!

[Hoovie]

I too am "rushing forward" to thank you for a great post, OneAccord!!

[freeatlast]

woW,,,,,what a wordsmith you are one accord. nice job.

[MusicMaster]

Sir, I give you a standing ovation for this post.

:clap

[tamor]

Amen and Amen!!

[AJBC]

Wisdom prevails!!

[RandyWayne]

I don't know if we all consider Acts 2:38 as a "foundation" to our religion. As an example, OUR church baptizes in Jesus name by immersion yet we don't consider ourself an "Acts 2:38 Church". In fact, we consider it a very MINOR part of the Christian life.

Does the human species center their entire existence around "cutting the umbilical cord" or the "crowning" of the head during birth? How much MORE important is college and marriage then some action that took mere seconds? The entire epistles are centered around the importance of love, selflessness, and forgiveness. Yet those are the FIRST things that are ignored in the endless quest and fight for HOLINESS STANDARDS, and the all important "Acts 2:38!!!" experience.

[CC1]

I don't know if we all consider Acts 2:38 as a "foundation" to our religion. As an example, OUR church baptizes in Jesus name by immersion yet we don't consider ourself an "Acts 2:38 Church". In fact, we consider it a very MINOR part of the Christian life.

Does the human species center their entire existence around "cutting the umbilical cord" or the "crowning" of the head during birth? How much MORE important is college and marriage then some action that took mere seconds? The entire epistles are centered around the importance of love, selflessness, and forgiveness. Yet those are the FIRST things that are ignored in the endless quest and fight for HOLINESS STANDARDS, and the all important "Acts 2:38!!!" experience.


I didn't know you went to my church!!!!

[RandyWayne]

I didn't know you went to my church!!!!

I just might! Soon. :)

[dixonic2]

<golf Clap>

[OneAccord]

I don't know if we all consider Acts 2:38 as a "foundation" to our religion. As an example, OUR church baptizes in Jesus name by immersion yet we don't consider ourself an "Acts 2:38 Church". In fact, we consider it a very MINOR part of the Christian life.

Does the human species center their entire existence around "cutting the umbilical cord" or the "crowning" of the head during birth? How much MORE important is college and marriage then some action that took mere seconds? The entire epistles are centered around the importance of love, selflessness, and forgiveness. Yet those are the FIRST things that are ignored in the endless quest and fight for HOLINESS STANDARDS, and the all important "Acts 2:38!!!" experience.

I am actually in agreement with you to a degree. Water baptism is, as the writer of Hebrews points out, but one of the "principles of the doctrines of Christ". While I wouldn't consider it a "minor" principle, it is, nonetheless, but one of those principles. It has been, at least in the view of the majority, the very cornerstone of the Apostolic Faith. And while that may be true, it isn't the cornerstone of the Christian Faith. Jesus stands, not only as the Cornerstone upon which His Church is built, but as the very Head of the Church of Jesus Christ. He should always be the very central mesaage of the Apostolic Movement. Not a doctrine about Him, but HE must always be our central message.

When I speak of foundation, I mean it in the sense that this is the doctrine that gives this Forum its common ground. We vary on many things, but Acts 2:38 is our common experience. I agree that its has been "pedastalized" above love, selflessness and forgiveness. I agree that those aspects of God you mentioned comprise the message we should be taking to the world. No one is saved by standards, and Acts 2:38. In my view, these are "internal messages" to establish new born Christians. Jesus and His attributes that you listed, is the saving message to the lost. That message of repentance brings sinners to the altars. Holiness standards, however we veiw them, have become "litmus" tests to determine ones spirituality. This is unfortunate. For, as we have seen time and time again, standards are raised or lowered based on who's speaking at the time. The same can be said for "doctrines". Fellowship is often based on the level of ones standards or doctrine. It should not be so. Our fellowship should be based on one thing:

Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

The fellowship I extend to my brother isn't necessarily based on his standards or even on his doctrine. I acknowledge a person as a brother and sister in the Lord when I percieve by their "stedfastness" (boldness) in Christ "...that they had been with Jesus". It is by their testimony they overcome, and it is by their testimony that I can tell they are in Christ. That, and that alone, tells me they are following Christ. Their label, whether it be Con or Lib, Apostolic or Pentecostal, not even Trinitarian or Oneness means nothing. It is the word of their testimony that determines that they have been with Jesus.

[RandyWayne]

Thanks for your post!

[CC1]

I just might! Soon. :)


Excellent!

[Newman]

I don't know if we all consider Acts 2:38 as a "foundation" to our religion. As an example, OUR church baptizes in Jesus name by immersion yet we don't consider ourself an "Acts 2:38 Church". In fact, we consider it a very MINOR part of the Christian life.

Does the human species center their entire existence around "cutting the umbilical cord" or the "crowning" of the head during birth? How much MORE important is college and marriage then some action that took mere seconds? The entire epistles are centered around the importance of love, selflessness, and forgiveness. Yet those are the FIRST things that are ignored in the endless quest and fight for HOLINESS STANDARDS, and the all important "Acts 2:38!!!" experience.

Umm.... If the umbical cord wasn't cut or the head never appeared; there wouldn't be much point in talking about college and marriage for that baby would there? Live births and mere seconds matter!:coffee2

[RandyWayne]

But I don't see human civilization celebrating those events and making it the cornerstone of society.

Also, I can point to many who I know are "saved" beyond a shadow of a doubt and yet haven't spoken in tongues. They've been baptized but after YEARS of "pleading for God to give them the holy ghost!" never uttered an unfamiliar word. Some of these have even shown various gifts of the spirit! -just not tongues.

[OneAccord]

But I don't see human civilization celebrating those events and making it the cornerstone of society.

Also, I can point to many who I know are "saved" beyond a shadow of a doubt and yet haven't spoken in tongues. They've been baptized but after YEARS of "pleading for God to give them the holy ghost!" never uttered an unfamiliar word. Some of these have even shown various gifts of the spirit! -just not tongues.

Bro RandyWayne- I have fellowship with a brother on an almost daily basis. We meet on occasion to study and to pray. I've been around him in different situations, work, informal get togethers and church. I've never seen him speak a harsh or ugly word, never seen him say or do anything unchristian. He has a love for God and a love for people that seems almost endless. He expresses more of the fruit of the Spirit than I have ever expressed. But I've never heard him speak in tongues. And he attends a local Baptist church. And you know what? I call him Bro. Danny. Because he my brother in the Lord.

[RandyWayne]

Bro RandyWayne- I have fellowship with a brother on an almost daily basis. We meet on occasion to study and to pray. I've been around him in different situations, work, informal get togethers and church. I've never seen him speak a harsh or ugly word, never seen him say or do anything unchristian. He has a love for God and a love for people that seems almost endless. He expresses more of the fruit of the Spirit than I have ever expressed. But I've never heard him speak in tongues. And he attends a local Baptist church. And you know what? I call him Bro. Danny. Because he my brother in the Lord.

Amen!!!!!

[RandyWayne]

This also brings up another interesting story. This past year my wife worked a number of "blocks" at different locations as a student intern for pharmacy. One of the blocks she worked was at Madison's Hospice center. It was a hard job, but also one of the most rewarding she has done. There were Catholic nuns which were simply radiant with Gods love.
(There is also a very touching story of an older woman who was staying there with less then a week to live. Her husband visited her and they both went onto a patio that backs up to every room. A half an hour later an attendant found both of them sitting at the table outside, holding hands, and dead. She died, and he died minutes later.)

[OneAccord]

This also brings up another interesting story. This past year my wife worked a number of "blocks" at different locations as a student intern for pharmacy. One of the blocks she worked was at Madison's Hospice center. It was a hard job, but also one of the most rewarding she has done. There were Catholic nuns which were simply radiant with Gods love.
(There is also a very touching story of an older woman who was staying there with less then a week to live. Her husband visited her and they both went onto a patio that backs up to every room. A half an hour later an attendant found both of them sitting at the table outside, holding hands, and dead. She died, and he died minutes later.)

That is an amazing story. The people who work for hospice, whether they be nuns or whatever, are very special people. I have a deeper respect and admiration for those who work in the medical profession. Sure, there are some who are they for a paycheck, but, by and large, medical personel are as close to saints without actually being saints. And, IMO, many are. Thanks, Bro. for sharing that story. It has left an indelible image in my mind.

[rgcraig]

I was unable to be on much yesterday, but after just reading this....Bravo!

I think this needs to be a sticky for a bit so that others do not miss it.

[R.D. Foster]

I don't know if we all consider Acts 2:38 as a "foundation" to our religion. As an example, OUR church baptizes in Jesus name by immersion yet we don't consider ourself an "Acts 2:38 Church". In fact, we consider it a very MINOR part of the Christian life.

Does the human species center their entire existence around "cutting the umbilical cord" or the "crowning" of the head during birth? How much MORE important is college and marriage then some action that took mere seconds? The entire epistles are centered around the importance of love, selflessness, and forgiveness. Yet those are the FIRST things that are ignored in the endless quest and fight for HOLINESS STANDARDS, and the all important "Acts 2:38!!!" experience.

1. Essential---Biblical New Birth, John 3:5. Acts 2:38 is the way.
2. Essential---A Crucified Life, Luke 14:27. Romans through Jude is the way.
3. Essential---Holiness, Hebrews 12:14. Biblical New Birth and A Crucified Life are the way.

Acts 2:38 is the 'door' to salvation. We MUST continue on to know the Lord. (John 8:31-32, Acts 14:22, Romans 11:20-22, Colossians 1:22-23, I Timothy 4:6,16, II Timothy 3:10-16, Hebrews 13:1, I John 3:24)

I am sorry that your experience has been so lacking in Christianity. You will be part of my prayers today.

BTW, without birth there is no need for college, marriage, etc. Without Biblical New Birth, there is no need for living the Christian life because at the end one will be lost. Those 'mere seconds' are essential.

[R.D. Foster]

I am actually in agreement with you to a degree. Water baptism is, as the writer of Hebrews points out, but one of the "principles of the doctrines of Christ". While I wouldn't consider it a "minor" principle, it is, nonetheless, but one of those principles. It has been, at least in the view of the majority, the very cornerstone of the Apostolic Faith. And while that may be true, it isn't the cornerstone of the Christian Faith. Jesus stands, not only as the Cornerstone upon which His Church is built, but as the very Head of the Church of Jesus Christ. He should always be the very central mesaage of the Apostolic Movement. Not a doctrine about Him, but HE must always be our central message.

When I speak of foundation, I mean it in the sense that this is the doctrine that gives this Forum its common ground. We vary on many things, but Acts 2:38 is our common experience. I agree that its has been "pedastalized" above love, selflessness and forgiveness. I agree that those aspects of God you mentioned comprise the message we should be taking to the world. No one is saved by standards, and Acts 2:38. In my view, these are "internal messages" to establish new born Christians. Jesus and His attributes that you listed, is the saving message to the lost. That message of repentance brings sinners to the altars. Holiness standards, however we veiw them, have become "litmus" tests to determine ones spirituality. This is unfortunate. For, as we have seen time and time again, standards are raised or lowered based on who's speaking at the time. The same can be said for "doctrines". Fellowship is often based on the level of ones standards or doctrine. It should not be so. Our fellowship should be based on one thing:

Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

The fellowship I extend to my brother isn't necessarily based on his standards or even on his doctrine. I acknowledge a person as a brother and sister in the Lord when I percieve by their "stedfastness" (boldness) in Christ "...that they had been with Jesus". It is by their testimony they overcome, and it is by their testimony that I can tell they are in Christ. That, and that alone, tells me they are following Christ. Their label, whether it be Con or Lib, Apostolic or Pentecostal, not even Trinitarian or Oneness means nothing. It is the word of their testimony that determines that they have been with Jesus.

Romans 16:17-18, II Corinthians 4:3-4, II Corinthians 11:13-15. You seem to 'judge' peoples Christianity without scriptural basis. John 3:5 MUST happen and the ONLY examples are Acts 2:4,38, 8:14-17, 10:44-48, 19:1-7.

Without a grasp of Biblical New Birth, you will never see standards as Holiness.

I have met Buddhist and Muslims that exhibited a very Christ-like spirit. Are you saying that they are saved? If I knew your name I would pray for you specifically. You seem suspicious when you hide your identity and then imply that people are ready to meet the Lord without Biblical New Birth.

[Raven]

OneAccord
Once again your writing gift comes shining through. Excellent post! To be remembered as a "uniter" rather than a divider is the "label" I will always give you. Take it and wear it gracefully for you have earned it as one of the great posters on this Forum.
Raven

[OneAccord]

Romans 16:17-18, II Corinthians 4:3-4, II Corinthians 11:13-15. You seem to 'judge' peoples Christianity without scriptural basis. John 3:5 MUST happen and the ONLY examples are Acts 2:4,38, 8:14-17, 10:44-48, 19:1-7.

Without a grasp of Biblical New Birth, you will never see standards as Holiness.

I have met Buddhist and Muslims that exhibited a very Christ-like spirit. Are you saying that they are saved? If I knew your name I would pray for you specifically. You seem suspicious when you hide your identity and then imply that people are ready to meet the Lord without Biblical New Birth.

1. With all due respect, Brother, I don't judges anyones Chritianity at all. On any basis. I am told by the Lord to refrain from the practice of judging others. A persons Chritianity is between them and God. That is one point I was attempting to make in my original post... that it isn't up to me, or you, or anyone else to decide who is, and who is not saved based on their belief system or their lifestyle. I KNOW what it takes for me to saved, which includes the New Birth of John 3. What it takes for someone else, I think I'd do best to leave that between them and God.

2. There is nothing in my post that indicates I don't have a grasp on "standards" of Holiness, or the New Birth for that matter. As stated, I know what is required of me to be saved, and I am well versed in Biblical standards ( one of which is to refrain from judging). And I'm also well versed in the myraid of Pentecostal standards that have no basis in the Word of God.
Those that are good, and aids Christian growth and spiritual unity, I accept. Those that bring bondage and division I reject outright.

3. Again, I cannot and will not judge someone else's salvation. I know of a church in Ga that is named Piney Grove Methodist Church. All the members have the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:4) and have been baptized in Jesus' Name. But they call themselves Methodist. Why? I don't know... none of my business. I know some that call themselves Apostolic who claim the same experience but are meaner than snakes. Since you seem to think its okay to judge, you tell me. Which is saved? I don't know if one who calls himself a Buddist is saved or not anymore than I can tell if you are saved. Thats God's call, not mine.

4. I am sorry you find my choice to protect my privacy suspicious. When it was necessary I posted my name here. But, because I desire your prayers, I will post it now. My name is Rick. And, I appreciate your prayers. And I will reciprocate by asking God to deal with your spirit about judgementalism and legalism. God bless you.

[Sherri]

Rick, I don't know what you do exactly, but you would make an awesome pastor!!! Your wisdom in these posts is some of the best I've ever seen on AFF. Your spirit shines through as well. I think the original post on this thread is one of the best I've ever read on here.

[My Own Eyes]

Rick, I don't know what you do exactly, but you would make an awesome pastor!!! Your wisdom in these posts is some of the best I've ever seen on AFF. Your spirit shines through as well. I think the original post on this thread is one of the best I've ever read on here.

Everyone try not to fall over in shock.....

But I agree.

I know little about what makes a good pastor, and way more than I would like to about what makes a bad one.

But Bro. Rick has been more kind and more encouraging to me than just about anyone in my experience.

[Sherri]

Everyone try not to fall over in shock.....

But I agree.

I know little about what makes a good pastor, and way more than I would like to about what makes a bad one.

But Bro. Rick has been more kind and more encouraging to me than just about anyone in my experience.

:swoon

[My Own Eyes]

:swoon

:D

Keep 'em guessing, that's my motto!

[ManOfWord]

OA, you are and remain a Christian gentleman!!! Thanks for the reminder and compass heading refresher! Your balanced approach is alway appreciated. :D

[OneAccord]

Aw, shucks, folks. It twasn't nuthin'. I was just foolin' around.

And I would make a good pastor. If I were a preacher. But it does bring up a thought thats been rolling around in my head. "If I were a pastor...what kind of pastor would I be?" What would I want my church to be like? Would I be conservative? Liberal? Or Moderate? Would I be a part of an organization? Or independent? Would mine be a "mega-church"? Or small church? Given the chance, would I preach on TV?

Well, the questions keep coming. And, since it ain't gonna happen in this lifetime, I guess theres no need to speculate. But it would be interesting to read what pastors... real pastors..would say....

[Sherri]

Aw, shucks, folks. It twasn't nuthin'. I was just foolin' around.

And I would make a good pastor. If I were a preacher. But it does bring up a thought thats been rolling around in my head. "If I were a pastor...what kind of pastor would I be?" What would I want my church to be like? Would I be conservative? Liberal? Or Moderate? Would I be a part of an organization? Or independent? Would mine be a "mega-church"? Or small church? Given the chance, would I preach on TV?

Well, the questions keep coming. And, since it ain't gonna happen in this lifetime, I guess theres no need to speculate. But it would be interesting to read what pastors... real pastors..would say....

Oh we've learned to NEVER say NEVER!!!:thumbsup

[ManOfWord]

Oh we've learned to NEVER say NEVER!!!:thumbsup

No truer words spoken Sis!!!! :D

[DanielR]

Great post OneAccord. I've only been here a short time so far, but I've quickly come to appreciate your posts. It's a spirit like you have here, that makes it possible for Oneness and Trinitarians to work together to accomplish a shared common goal, and that is to lead the lost to Christ. That is what I do in the small but national parachurch org. that I'm in a leadership position in. I am the only Apostolic in leadership among all the Trinitarians of this org., yet we stand shoulder to shoulder, brother to brother, to reach the lost in a widely unreached subculture here in America. This org. specializes in one special segment of society that no specific denomination will reach out to. But we have come together, members of many different denomanations and sects, because we share a common burden, and that is to reach the lost where the "churchs" will not go. In this case, the Church is taking up for the failures of the churchs.

Daniel

[RevDWW]

But I don't see human civilization celebrating those events and making it the cornerstone of society.
No birth, no life.

Folks I know, seem to celebrate the fact they were born....how many birthdays have you celebrated? :bday2u

Lots of folks seem to celebrate in the acts that create life. As they say "sex sales", and so we see advertising doing just that for just about everything. By the way if I read my bible correctly there is nothing wrong with that whole process, in the right relationship of marriage.....:stars

Yes once the birth takes place there should be a natural tendency toward growth and development to maturity....which I have not yet attained.. :bliss...and the Church needs to nurture it's babes, but to say the birth is not that significant is not well thought out.......just ask any friendly OB/GYN Doctor, nurse, or staff at a neo-natal hospital......

[OneAccord]

Great post OneAccord. I've only been here a short time so far, but I've quickly come to appreciate your posts. It's a spirit like you have here, that makes it possible for Oneness and Trinitarians to work together to accomplish a shared common goal, and that is to lead the lost to Christ. That is what I do in the small but national parachurch org. that I'm in a leadership position in. I am the only Apostolic in leadership among all the Trinitarians of this org., yet we stand shoulder to shoulder, brother to brother, to reach the lost in a widely unreached subculture here in America. This org. specializes in one special segment of society that no specific denomination will reach out to. But we have come together, members of many different denomanations and sects, because we share a common burden, and that is to reach the lost where the "churchs" will not go. In this case, the Church is taking up for the failures of the churchs.

Daniel

Thank you, Brother Daniel R, and I'm glad you enjoyed the article. There are those, as you might suspect, in both camps, Trinitarian and Oneness, who might take you to task and say that there is bo room for fellowship between the two groups. But, it isn't my place to agree or disagree with you. My place to to pray for you and to encourage you in your walk with the Lord. And, to support your effort in obeying the Lord in what you feel He has called you to do. The rift between the two groups, and the rifts within the separate groups, make any cooperation and fellowship seem impossible. But, with that I disagree. I believe the Holy Spirit is big enough and strong enough so that we can share the common goal you speak of. That goal, reaching the lost, is the very heart beat of the Spirit-filled Church.

Anytime I think of the diversity within the Body of Christ I think of what General Colin Powell said in a Republican National Convention a few years ago. He said that the Republican Party is big enough and strong enough to rise above the diversity and unite together as one. And, as I heard those words, I thought, "If a political party can do that, surely the Spirit-filled Body of Christ can do so much better". And it can. If we all will realize that diversity is what built this nation. Diversity, even on this forum, is what makes it strong. And diversity is what enables your organization reach people that I, or others, cannot reach.
May God bless you as you continue to walk with Him. I'd like to know more about your group. You can post further info here, or send a PM.

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

[OneAccord]

Without a grasp of Biblical New Birth, you will never see standards as Holiness.

I re-read this statement this morning (as I'm SUPPOSE to be getting ready for church) and I found that I agree with the underlines words completely. And this isn't an attack on "standards". But, no, I do not see standards as holiness. There are not one and the same. Holiness is what God does when He washes us in the Blood of the Lamb. The stain of sin is washed away when we are covered by His Blood and He... NOTE: HE... makes us holy. Holiness is what HE does in our hearts and lives. Standards,or, more correctly, godly principles, are what WE do, to maintain holiness unto the Lord. And what those "standards" are is between an individual and his or her Creator. The Christain principles of love, faith, goodness, and so on that we maintain in our lives is how we respond to the holiness the Lord gives us at Calvary.

There are a great number of religious sects in the world that keep "standards", but have they been made "Holiness unto the Lord" by His Blood? Can we say that the mere keeping of "standards" is what makes us holy? Of course not. If so, then our faith is a works based faith, because keeping standards is a work, that, it seems, some boast in. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-9 My salvation, any holiness I might have, is the result of the work HE did in my life when He saved my soul. . My "works" of believing the Gospel, being baptized in Jesus Name, being filled with the Holy Ghost, and maintaining Christian principles, is my response to His Finished Work at Calvary.

[TRFrance]

With all due respect, Brother, I don't judge anyones Christianity at all. On any basis. I am told by the Lord to refrain from the practice of judging others. A persons Christianity is between them and God. That is one point I was attempting to make in my original post... that it isn't up to me, or you, or anyone else to decide who is, and who is not saved based on their belief system or their lifestyle. I KNOW what it takes for me to saved, which includes the New Birth of John 3 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+3). What it takes for someone else, I think I'd do best to leave that between them and God.

2. There is nothing in my post that indicates I don't have a grasp on "standards" of Holiness, or the New Birth for that matter. As stated, I know what is required of me to be saved,


Well pardon me if I sound "negative" here, as some may wish to call it. But I think there is a fundamental flaw in some of what I'm hearing form you.

You say emphatically that you know what's required for you to be saved. But you also say you refuse to "judge" who is or is not saved based on their belief system (?).

Well, unless you believe there are more than one way to be saved, then wouldn't it take the same thing for someone else to be saved?

Is there not a biblical standard of what salvation is? (I'm assuming there is, since we always refer to the "plan of salvation".) And if a person has not followed the biblical requirement for salvation, is it "judging" to say that that person has not received salvation?

[OneAccord]

Well pardon me if I sound "negative" here, as some may wish to call it. But I think there is a fundamental flaw in some of what I'm hearing form you.

You say emphatically that you know what's required for you to be saved. But you also say you refuse to "judge" who is or is not saved based on their belief system (?).

Well, unless you believe there are more than one way to be saved, then wouldn't it take the same thing for someone else to be saved?

Is there not a biblical standard of what salvation is? (I'm assuming there is, since we always refer to the "plan of salvation".) And if a person has not followed the biblical requirement for salvation, is it "judging" to say that that person has not received salvation?

No sir, and you're not sounding negative at all, there is ONLY ONE WAY to be saved. Jesus said it quite clearly: He, and He alone, is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is the only path to salvation.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-9

We are saved through faith in His finished work at Calvary, and our salvation is maintained by His grace that works in our lives. What I was referring to awas the standards that people feel they need, or do no need, to be saved. Some feel STRICT, almost legalistic, standards are required. Some feel more liberal standards are all that is necessary. That is what I do not judge. That is between them and God. I know what it takes for ME to be (I should say REMAIN) saved. Because my reply was about "standards and holiness" the brother spoke of. Which I addressed in a previos post.

[SDG]

AFF is stronger than ever. Viva la independence!!!

[ManOfWord]

No sir, and you're not sounding negative at all, there is ONLY ONE WAY to be saved. Jesus said it quite clearly: He, and He alone, is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is the only path to salvation.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-9

We are saved through faith in His finished work at Calvary, and our salvation is maintained by His grace that works in our lives. What I was referring to awas the standards that people feel they need, or do no need, to be saved. Some feel STRICT, almost legalistic, standards are required. Some feel more liberal standards are all that is necessary. That is what I do not judge. That is between them and God. I know what it takes for ME to be (I should say REMAIN) saved. Because my reply was about "standards and holiness" the brother spoke of. Which I addressed in a previos post.


I know it's not surprising, but I agree whole heartedly here. The way of salvation has ALWAYS been a PERSON, not a doctrine. Doctrine is important for it teaches us the way to think, walk etc. But the way of salvation has NEVER been a doctrine.....it has ALWAYS been a person....Jesus Christ!

A person can have perfect doctrine (at least some think that's possible) and not be saved. But you cannot have Jesus and be lost. There are still many who equate salvation with a formula/steps/doctrine etc MORE than they do the relationship with Jesus Christ. :D

[commonsense]

One Accord,
Good words, well expressed. I'm in agreement.

[pelathais]

Well said, OA. And while I am sympathetic to the issues raised by some of the "Acts 2:38 exclusionists" I also feel that God's kingdom is exactly that, His kingdom. And if He makes provisions for those who do not get everything exactly right, then that's His prerogative.

We are "Apostolic" because we have followed the example and preaching of the New Testament apostles. We are "saved" because of the work that only Jesus Christ Himself could do for us.

[Neck]

If this forum comes to an end.

It will not take away from the points of view expressed.

It will not take away the folks that I have met while posting since Feb 2007.

Nate

[tamor]

If this forum comes to an end.

It will not take away from the points of view expressed.

It will not take away the folks that I have met while posting since Feb 2007.

Nate

Is this forum coming to an end? NO! Say it ain't so!!! :tissue

[OneAccord]

Is this forum coming to an end? NO! Say it ain't so!!! :tissue

It ain't so.

[tamor]

It ain't so.

Whew! :dance That was a close one!! :party

[DanielR]

Thank you, Brother Daniel R, and I'm glad you enjoyed the article. There are those, as you might suspect, in both camps, Trinitarian and Oneness, who might take you to task and say that there is bo room for fellowship between the two groups. But, it isn't my place to agree or disagree with you. My place to to pray for you and to encourage you in your walk with the Lord. And, to support your effort in obeying the Lord in what you feel He has called you to do. The rift between the two groups, and the rifts within the separate groups, make any cooperation and fellowship seem impossible. But, with that I disagree. I believe the Holy Spirit is big enough and strong enough so that we can share the common goal you speak of. That goal, reaching the lost, is the very heart beat of the Spirit-filled Church.

Anytime I think of the diversity within the Body of Christ I think of what General Colin Powell said in a Republican National Convention a few years ago. He said that the Republican Party is big enough and strong enough to rise above the diversity and unite together as one. And, as I heard those words, I thought, "If a political party can do that, surely the Spirit-filled Body of Christ can do so much better". And it can. If we all will realize that diversity is what built this nation. Diversity, even on this forum, is what makes it strong. And diversity is what enables your organization reach people that I, or others, cannot reach.
May God bless you as you continue to walk with Him. I'd like to know more about your group. You can post further info here, or send a PM.

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Oh yes, I catch it from all sides, but that's ok. This is where God wants me and Satan doesn't like it, so he gets everyone he can to speak against me building a bridge. So to Satan I say, "Tough luck, I'm staying put until the Lord tells me to move on and not a moment sooner!"

Although I will most likely catch alot of flack for it from the cons and some mods, I'll start a new thread in a couple of days and tell everyone what we do.

Daniel

[OneAccord]

Oh yes, I catch it from all sides, but that's ok. This is where God wants me and Satan doesn't like it, so he gets everyone he can to speak against me building a bridge. So to Satan I say, "Tough luck, I'm staying put until the Lord tells me to move on and not a moment sooner!"

Although I will most likely catch alot of flack for it from the cons and some mods, I'll start a new thread in a couple of days and tell everyone what we do.

Daniel

Brother, please don't think you'll catch it from me. If you are where you feel the Lord has put you- I pray that you will be as effective as can be in reaching the Lost. And, I'm all for building bridges and tearing down walls.

[DanielR]

As requested by One Accord in the State of the forum thread (see quote) I will now tell you what the org. that I'm assocciated with does in reaching out to those that the churches (over generalization) don't feel need to be reached.

Thank you, Brother Daniel R, and I'm glad you enjoyed the article. There are those, as you might suspect, in both camps, Trinitarian and Oneness, who might take you to task and say that there is bo room for fellowship between the two groups. But, it isn't my place to agree or disagree with you. My place to to pray for you and to encourage you in your walk with the Lord. And, to support your effort in obeying the Lord in what you feel He has called you to do. The rift between the two groups, and the rifts within the separate groups, make any cooperation and fellowship seem impossible. But, with that I disagree. I believe the Holy Spirit is big enough and strong enough so that we can share the common goal you speak of. That goal, reaching the lost, is the very heart beat of the Spirit-filled Church.

Anytime I think of the diversity within the Body of Christ I think of what General Colin Powell said in a Republican National Convention a few years ago. He said that the Republican Party is big enough and strong enough to rise above the diversity and unite together as one. And, as I heard those words, I thought, "If a political party can do that, surely the Spirit-filled Body of Christ can do so much better". And it can. If we all will realize that diversity is what built this nation. Diversity, even on this forum, is what makes it strong. And diversity is what enables your organization reach people that I, or others, cannot reach.
May God bless you as you continue to walk with Him. I'd like to know more about your group. You can post further info here, or send a PM.

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

I am in leadership and part of an orginazation of Christians from many different denominations and sects that goes to and reaches out to people in areas that most Christians would never get caught dead in. The Christian rate in these areas are between 10-20% so you can see the need for ministry in these areas as well as the fact that 8-9 out of every 10 people are perspectives to being led to the Lord. These people must be witnessed to in their world because they are not receptive to evangalism outside of it, for the most part (although there are a few exceptions). These people are right under your noses, many of you will condemn them if you only knew the truth about them, and for that reason alone is why I can reach them better than you can. Their ony crime in not trusting in the Lord, and the reason many of them don't is because they see a HUGE inconsisantcy between nature and what many Christians teach about the God of nature. They believe with all their hearts this scripture in Genesis 1

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 2

25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

But when they hear from Bible teachers that they must be covered up all the time with clothing they outright reject the Gospel due to the contradictions between Genesis chapters 1 & 2 and what is taught behind the pulpits. Who are these people, most are called nudists or naturist, although must won't wear either name so I'll just call them naked people in a social setting. (Now, let me clarify, I'm not talking about swingers or people engaged in group sex, although they misuse social nudity, that is not what nudism or naturism is about.) I'm talking about people that can and do distinguish between a naked body and sexual activity. These people adhere to personal actions of modesty that exceedes what you will find in church most sunday mornings, they just don't follow the modesty in clothing argument. (If everyone around them in dressed the same, how can you tell who's immodest?)

OK, now what we ("we" read christians with a burden to reach these people with a message of salvation) do is go into this non-sexual setting whether it be a clothing optional beach, a naturist resort, or a social nudist gathering of friends (just like many of you will do in a clothed gathering, resort, job, whatever) to be a Light for those that are there. You've heard the saying, "When in Rome, dress as the Romans" that's right, to be effective in witnessing to these people, they have to be able to see that you also believe that Genesis chapters 1 & 2 are also currently relevent to you as well.

So where does the org. that I'm in leadership fit in? Once a year in a few parts of the country we hold conferences at a resort to encourage and equip the saints with the tools needed to be a witness in their areas. My position is to plan, schedule, and run the midwest convention held in Missouri. This is pretty much a weekend retreat, but you will be fed alot of spiritual meat and potatoes during the weekend. The org. is called the Christian Nudist Convocation or CNC for short. If your interested to know more about the ministry, their website is http://www.cnvillage.org/cnc/index.htm We also support some home study groups that take place in the larger cities.

We use ordained pastors and lay ministers for our training seesions and our Sunday morning service. We come from many denominations, yet we share the burden of reaching the lost in this subculture.

I am just answering a question with this long post, please don't take it as promoting this subculture in any way, that is not my intent.

Daniel

[Michael Phelps]

:preach
:fireworks State of the Forum Address :canada

Good evening, Ladies and Gentlemen,

I am not Administration. Nor am I an owner or moderator. I am a registered member. I joined this forum on Feb, 10, 2007 and, with this post, I will have posted 1080 times. This will be the 96th thread that I have started. Statistically, I average 2.87 posts per day.

The are a number of reasons people join internet forums. Those reason vary widely depending on the type of forum one joins. This forum would be considered a religious forum. Specifically, it is an Apostolic Forum. That means, the ownership and the overwhelming majority of the members are members of the Apostolic Faith. They hold Acts 2:38 as the very foundation of their religious experience. Moving away from that foundation , however, we can begin to detect differences. Not divisions, but differing views. Is the Apostolic Friends Forum divided? Yes, but division is the very nature of public forums. People from all across America, from Canada, and from all points around the globe see the name of the forum, APOSTOLIC Friends Forum, and, because they desire fellowship and identity with like-minded brothers and sisters, the huddle together under the word APOSTOLIC like people under an umbrella trying to dodge a rain shower. Its while we wait for the rain to pass that we begin to talk. And, we discover that, though we share the same umbrella, there are differences in our beliefs. Sometimes, that talk develops into discussions, and rarely into debates. On even rarer occasions, conflicts develop and words are exchanged that causes anger and hurt feelings.

The thing to bear in mind is that, while there are differences among us, we are all huddled under one umbrella: APOSTOLIC. We all came here to seek refuge from the storms of life in general. The soaking rains of doubt, fear and unbelief are soaking a sinful world all around us, but here we are, safe and dry, protected, at least for a season, from the rigors of life. And, we are together. Just as Jesus intended when He prayed in the garden that we be one. How is it possible for such a diverse people to come together in unity and fellowship? Well, actually, it isn’t possible, at least not through human effort. A people long ago attempted to be one and build a tower to reach the heavens, and, because theirs was a human effort, the efforts were in vain. But God, in His infinite wisdom, provided the means for us to achieve that which is humanly impossible: the Holy Spirit. By the very Spirit of the Living God that dwells in our hearts, we have the means to become one in Christ. When you stop to think about it, there is no oneness outside of Christ. Denominations have been established to unite people, but the grow and fall, because, like the tower of Babel, denominations are human effort.

It was the Holy Ghost given at Pentecost that united the 120 there in Jerusalem. It was the Holy Spirit that added three thousand to the church then, and it is the Holy Ghost poured out down through the years that have added us to God’s Kingdom. We are a blessed people… we have what the world’s political machines cannot not provide. We have unity. No, we may not always agree. Our doctrines may differ. Our belief system, developed, not be a manual or creed, but by a spiritual experience of being reborn into God’s Kingdom, may not always agree, but the Spirit within us does agree, bearing witness with our spirits that we are God’s children.

Of course, within our ranks, are labels. Personally, I despise the labels but have come to accept them as a necessary evil. We are known by our labels- our convictions are erroneously and wrongly judged by the labels pinned us. Cons. Mods and Libs. Our allegiance to the Lord Jesus is often questioned by these carnal labels, as if someone can see through the label and see the very intents of the heart.. But, that isn’t possible. Only God sees the heart, and I suspect that when He looks at the heart of those who bear the name Christian, He sees His own reflection.

So what of these alleged “changes” in the Forum? I can recall just a few weeks ago when someone alluded to changes in the Forum. Some said the change was refreshing. Others said they like the changes. But now, more changes have come and some are concerned. Some see this as a beginning of the end for AFF. But, no, this forum, like all forums that go through change, will continue as is. It will grow. It will weather the storm. How? By those who huddle under the Apostolic umbrella. The truth is, the Forum can know say without reservation that it is “ a place where Apostolics can communicate with freedom”. In reality, those words can be shouted because the recent changes open new doors of opportunity. There is, as someone recently posted, “ a new breeze blowing” at the Apostolic Friends Forum. The rains beat around us, but, this Forum will weather this storm just as it has the storms of the past.

We regret losing these valued members. But, we support them in their decision by urging them to remain true to their convictions. We will miss their valued posts- but the Forum will live on. We will remain in One Accord, doing just what those words mean, “rushing forward, in unison.”. The Forum will not rise like a Phoenix from the ashes, because it has never fallen. It stands today and for a long timeto come as a shining example of what happens when God’s people comes together in the Unity of the Spirit. God bless the Apostolic Friend Forum, and God bless the owners, moderators and members of this great Forum!


Once again, OA, you have proven that you are the statesman for AFF. This post makes me want to surrender my "adminship" to you!

Very well said......

[Michael Phelps]

1. Essential---Biblical New Birth, John 3:5. Acts 2:38 is the way.
2. Essential---A Crucified Life, Luke 14:27. Romans through Jude is the way.
3. Essential---Holiness, Hebrews 12:14. Biblical New Birth and A Crucified Life are the way.

Acts 2:38 is the 'door' to salvation. We MUST continue on to know the Lord. (John 8:31-32, Acts 14:22, Romans 11:20-22, Colossians 1:22-23, I Timothy 4:6,16, II Timothy 3:10-16, Hebrews 13:1, I John 3:24)

I am sorry that your experience has been so lacking in Christianity. You will be part of my prayers today.

BTW, without birth there is no need for college, marriage, etc. Without Biblical New Birth, there is no need for living the Christian life because at the end one will be lost. Those 'mere seconds' are essential.


I'm sorry, my friend, but judging by your words, it is YOUR experience that is severely lacking in Christianity. Your comments to One Accord concerning his "judging spirit", and your comments to Randy implying that because he thinks we should major on living for God, not JUST the moment of salvation, appear to me to be judgmental in the most extreme sense.

Just my humble opinion.

[OneAccord]

Well, I HAD to be the one to ask. But, brother, without critizing or condemning, I pray that you reach souls for Christ.

I'm reminded of the fact that you are not the first group to minister to Nudist, as I am sure you are aware. Jesus, as well, ministered to at least one of that sub-culture. In Mark 5, He ministered to the man who dwelled among the tombs. This man was, as the Bible says, possessed of the devil and was naked. Now I don't mean to imply this man compares with those you minister to, that isn't the point. The point is, the end result of the ministry Jesus was engaged in and that of your group. The purpose of Jesus' ministry to this man, and, as you stated the purpose of your ministry, is one and the same. Reaching the lost. Conversion. Deliverance. If, in fact, that is true, we can rest assured that the end result of your ministry is the same as that of Christs: That is, that your ministry brings these converts to a more correct way of living which includes the manner in which they dress. In other words, without being judgemental, in the end of your ministry of "winning these souls to Christ", we can assume they are left as Jesus left the man among the tombs: "...clothed, and in [their] right mind". Mar 5:15

If, in fact, it is true that your ministry "delivers" these people from a lifestyle that is clearly unacceptable to God, then I pray for you to be successful, though I can assure you this isn't an area of ministry I would feel comfortable in undertaking. If however, your ministry fails to encourage its converts to depart from this behavior, then I pray for you and the work you are with to align themselves (and yourself) to the Word of God. A conversion that does not teach "Come out from among" sinful practices is no conversion at all. It is condoning unacceptable practice. I am sorry if it sounds as if I am making an assumption here but I see nothing in your posts that suggests your ministry encourages a departure from a lifestyle totally contray to God's Word. If that is the case...it isn't a ministry at all- it is but a means to justify and condone an action or lifestyle totally devoid of any modicum of Christianity.

This Scripture, admittedly taken out of context, speaks volumes of any person or ministry who teaches "conversion" without a departure from sinful behavior: 2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

[OneAccord]

Reference Post # 51 DanielR-

Well, I HAD to be the one to ask. But, brother, without critizing or condemning, I pray that you reach souls for Christ.

I'm reminded of the fact that you are not the first group to minister to Nudist, as I am sure you are aware. Jesus, as well, ministered to at least one of that sub-culture. In Mark 5, He ministered to the man who dwelled among the tombs. This man was, as the Bible says, possessed of the devil and was naked. Now I don't mean to imply this man compares with those you minister to, that isn't the point. The point is, the end result of the ministry Jesus was engaged in and that of your group. The purpose of Jesus' ministry to this man, and, as you stated the purpose of your ministry, is one and the same. Reaching the lost. Conversion. Deliverance. If, in fact, that is true, we can rest assured that the end result of your ministry is the same as that of Christs: That is, that your ministry brings these converts to a more correct way of living which includes the manner in which they dress. In other words, without being judgemental, in the end of your ministry of "winning these souls to Christ", we can assume they are left as Jesus left the man among the tombs: "...clothed, and in [their] right mind". Mar 5:15

If, in fact, it is true that your ministry "delivers" these people from a lifestyle that is clearly unacceptable to God, then I pray for you to be successful, though I can assure you this isn't an area of ministry I would feel comfortable in undertaking. If however, your ministry fails to encourage its converts to depart from this behavior, then I pray for you and the work you are with to align themselves (and yourself) to the Word of God. A conversion that does not teach "Come out from among" sinful practices is no conversion at all. It is condoning unacceptable practice. I am sorry if it sounds as if I am making an assumption here but I see nothing in your posts that suggests your ministry encourages a departure from a lifestyle totally contray to God's Word. If that is the case...it isn't a ministry at all- it is but a means to justify and condone an action or lifestyle totally devoid of any modicum of Christianity.

This Scripture, admittedly taken out of context, speaks volumes of any person or ministry who teaches "conversion" without a departure from sinful behavior: 2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

[ManOfWord]

As requested by One Accord in the State of the forum thread (see quote) I will now tell you what the org. that I'm assocciated with does in reaching out to those that the churches (over generalization) don't feel need to be reached.



I am in leadership and part of an orginazation of Christians from many different denominations and sects that goes to and reaches out to people in areas that most Christians would never get caught dead in. The Christian rate in these areas are between 10-20% so you can see the need for ministry in these areas as well as the fact that 8-9 out of every 10 people are perspectives to being led to the Lord. These people must be witnessed to in their world because they are not receptive to evangalism outside of it, for the most part (although there are a few exceptions). These people are right under your noses, many of you will condemn them if you only knew the truth about them, and for that reason alone is why I can reach them better than you can. Their ony crime in not trusting in the Lord, and the reason many of them don't is because they see a HUGE inconsisantcy between nature and what many Christians teach about the God of nature. They believe with all their hearts this scripture in Genesis 1

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 2

25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

But when they hear from Bible teachers that they must be covered up all the time with clothing they outright reject the Gospel due to the contradictions between Genesis chapters 1 & 2 and what is taught behind the pulpits. Who are these people, most are called nudists or naturist, although must won't wear either name so I'll just call them naked people in a social setting. (Now, let me clarify, I'm not talking about swingers or people engaged in group sex, although they misuse social nudity, that is not what nudism or naturism is about.) I'm talking about people that can and do distinguish between a naked body and sexual activity. These people adhere to personal actions of modesty that exceedes what you will find in church most sunday mornings, they just don't follow the modesty in clothing argument. (If everyone around them in dressed the same, how can you tell who's immodest?)

OK, now what we ("we" read christians with a burden to reach these people with a message of salvation) do is go into this non-sexual setting whether it be a clothing optional beach, a naturist resort, or a social nudist gathering of friends (just like many of you will do in a clothed gathering, resort, job, whatever) to be a Light for those that are there. You've heard the saying, "When in Rome, dress as the Romans" that's right, to be effective in witnessing to these people, they have to be able to see that you also believe that Genesis chapters 1 & 2 are also currently relevent to you as well.

So where does the org. that I'm in leadership fit in? Once a year in a few parts of the country we hold conferences at a resort to encourage and equip the saints with the tools needed to be a witness in their areas. My position is to plan, schedule, and run the midwest convention held in Missouri. This is pretty much a weekend retreat, but you will be fed alot of spiritual meat and potatoes during the weekend. The org. is called the Christian Nudist Convocation or CNC for short. If your interested to know more about the ministry, their website is http://www.cnvillage.org/cnc/index.htm We also support some home study groups that take place in the larger cities.

We use ordained pastors and lay ministers for our training seesions and our Sunday morning service. We come from many denominations, yet we share the burden of reaching the lost in this subculture.

I am just answering a question with this long post, please don't take it as promoting this subculture in any way, that is not my intent.

Daniel


WOW! I am ordained! Can I be a part of this organization and take my clothes off too and minister?


I've got to admit, this is the first time I've heard of this type of "ministry." I think Jesus had them put their clothes on.....the demoniac, after Jesus was clothed and in his right mind.

People can justify anything, IMO. I think this is just weird...sorry.

[Fiyahstarter]

No sir, and you're not sounding negative at all, there is ONLY ONE WAY to be saved. Jesus said it quite clearly: He, and He alone, is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is the only path to salvation.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-9

We are saved through faith in His finished work at Calvary, and our salvation is maintained by His grace that works in our lives. What I was referring to awas the standards that people feel they need, or do no need, to be saved. Some feel STRICT, almost legalistic, standards are required. Some feel more liberal standards are all that is necessary. That is what I do not judge. That is between them and God. I know what it takes for ME to be (I should say REMAIN) saved. Because my reply was about "standards and holiness" the brother spoke of. Which I addressed in a previos post.

SOME DO need to stay in a tight box to remain saved . . . they NEED strictness to protect them from temptation. Others, not so much.

I know what my boundaries are ... and I keep a tight rein where needed.

Brother OA, I appreciate your posts. And many others here too!! I have truly been MINISTERED to on more than one occasion here. Thanks for taking the time to post!!

[running free]

There was a man, David Wilkerson I believe, who wrote a book, back in the 70's called "The Vision". It was about the endtimes. Everything that seemed so shocking then, is becoming common place now. This includes the practice of homosexuality being normalized in churches. Also, he saw dancing (not in the spirit, but uniformally) in the churches. He also saw nudity in the churches as well. To my knowledge he was not Apostolic, but everything he talked about is coming true. This was to preceed the tribulation and coming of the Lord for his Bride. Scarey, since now we are moved from the "unthinkable" to "thinking nothing of it".

[OneAccord]

There was a man, David Wilkerson I believe, who wrote a book, back in the 70's called "The Vision". It was about the endtimes. Everything that seemed so shocking then, is becoming common place now. This includes the practice of homosexuality being normalized in churches. Also, he saw dancing (not in the spirit, but uniformally) in the churches. He also saw nudity in the churches as well. To my knowledge he was not Apostolic, but everything he talked about is coming true. This was to preceed the tribulation and coming of the Lord for his Bride. Scarey, since now we are moved from the "unthinkable" to "thinking nothing of it".

No David Wilkerson isn't Apostolic, and I Haven't read anything of him in a while, but if ever the spirit of prophecy rested on a man, I believe it is upon him. His lille book "Set the trumpet to thy mouth" was powerful. I haven't read the Vision I don't think, but I believe God used the brother to speak to the church of the last days!

[Angeleina930]

Ok, I feel better about joining this site. I was worried after my experience with "Everyone's Apostolic." The Apostolic Church does have it's foundation in Acts, especially the 1st and 2nd chapters. One thing that concerns me is that people stop at Acts 2:38. After that then what? The apostles continued: action, progress. I don't know if you all feel this way but it gets frustrating when I see Christians sitting on their laurels. But, to God be the glory!!!

[scotty]

Quit looking at other Christians... this is why He says to keep your eyes on Him and not on other Christians or what they are sitting on . If all would do that instead of worrying what everyone else is doing then............. ............ hmmm, sound like a broke record ?

[OneAccord]

Ok, I feel better about joining this site. I was worried after my experience with "Everyone's Apostolic." The Apostolic Church does have it's foundation in Acts, especially the 1st and 2nd chapters. One thing that concerns me is that people stop at Acts 2:38. After that then what? The apostles continued: action, progress. I don't know if you all feel this way but it gets frustrating when I see Christians sitting on their laurels. But, to God be the glory!!!

Welcome, Angeleina, to the Apostolic Friends Forum. You'll find a wide variety of views and opinions here. Lots of good folks, many very passionate about their beliefs. Please feel free to join in.

One of the hallmarks of the early church is that, at least in the beginning, it was a united church. The Bible uses the phrase "in one accord" to describe the early church. The word "accord" means to "rush together in unison". God's church is a church on the move. A progressive church that busies itself in the work of the Lord. It doesn't as you stated "rest on its laurels". You are correct. While Acts 2: 38 is a chief foundation of the Apostolic movement, it is just a foundation nonetheless. The writer of Hebrews calls baptism a mere "principle of doctrine" and we are urged to move past these "principles of doctrine" and go on to "perfection" which is defined by Strongs as:

a) the state of the more intelligent

b) moral and spiritual perfection

By concentrating on the principles we ignore, to borrow a term used by Jesus in Matt. 23, "the weightier matters". Too often, we subsist on the milk of the Word when God promises us MEAT in due season Psa 104:27.

However, I realize that, by and large, it is the doctrine of water baptism that gives Apostolic Christians their commonality. Baptism is our common ground. In this age of emerging views, we are most closely linked by our veiws on water baptism. True, we may differ as to whether or not baptism is required, and we may differ on various points regarding baptism, we do agree that water baptism n Jesus Name is, at least, a viable component in the the Christian Faith. But thats where our agreement ends. So, hence the need to hash and rehash the old baptism discussion. In so doing, however, we cling to the very "principle of doctrine" we are urged to leave in Hebrews. This is unfortunate because we miss much that God's Word offers.

I'm glad you joined us... and I hope your participation here will be as "good and pleasant" as is the unity is among God's people.

[Godsdrummer]

I am actually in agreement with you to a degree. Water baptism is, as the writer of Hebrews points out, but one of the "principles of the doctrines of Christ". While I wouldn't consider it a "minor" principle, it is, nonetheless, but one of those principles. It has been, at least in the view of the majority, the very cornerstone of the Apostolic Faith. And while that may be true, it isn't the cornerstone of the Christian Faith. Jesus stands, not only as the Cornerstone upon which His Church is built, but as the very Head of the Church of Jesus Christ. He should always be the very central mesaage of the Apostolic Movement. Not a doctrine about Him, but HE must always be our central message.

When I speak of foundation, I mean it in the sense that this is the doctrine that gives this Forum its common ground. We vary on many things, but Acts 2:38 is our common experience. I agree that its has been "pedastalized" above love, selflessness and forgiveness. I agree that those aspects of God you mentioned comprise the message we should be taking to the world. No one is saved by standards, and Acts 2:38. In my view, these are "internal messages" to establish new born Christians. Jesus and His attributes that you listed, is the saving message to the lost. That message of repentance brings sinners to the altars. Holiness standards, however we veiw them, have become "litmus" tests to determine ones spirituality. This is unfortunate. For, as we have seen time and time again, standards are raised or lowered based on who's speaking at the time. The same can be said for "doctrines". Fellowship is often based on the level of ones standards or doctrine. It should not be so. Our fellowship should be based on one thing:

Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

The fellowship I extend to my brother isn't necessarily based on his standards or even on his doctrine. I acknowledge a person as a brother and sister in the Lord when I percieve by their "stedfastness" (boldness) in Christ "...that they had been with Jesus". It is by their testimony they overcome, and it is by their testimony that I can tell they are in Christ. That, and that alone, tells me they are following Christ. Their label, whether it be Con or Lib, Apostolic or Pentecostal, not even Trinitarian or Oneness means nothing. It is the word of their testimony that determines that they have been with Jesus.


I just wanted to say I like what you are saying here if we can all come together in Christ the world could be reached twice as fast. The word tells us to try the spirits and I have found many that were christian even in other denominations. As a matter of fact I have found some of them to be more Christian than so called professing Holy Ghost filled people.

[Godsdrummer]

Quit looking at other Christians... this is why He says to keep your eyes on Him and not on other Christians or what they are sitting on . If all would do that instead of worrying what everyone else is doing then............. ............ hmmm, sound like a broke record ?


Thats good I have been saying that for some time to anyone who will listen, I don't feel that when Jesus said remove the beam out of your own eye before helping to get mote out of your brothers that he ment we would ever get our own eyes clean. Rather that we should worry about ourselves and let our brother listen to God for theirselves. Not to say we can't pray for our brother or sister for when we pray and listen to God sometimes we find God showing us things we need to address in our own life.

[Godsdrummer]

Aw, shucks, folks. It twasn't nuthin'. I was just foolin' around.

And I would make a good pastor. If I were a preacher. But it does bring up a thought thats been rolling around in my head. "If I were a pastor...what kind of pastor would I be?" What would I want my church to be like? Would I be conservative? Liberal? Or Moderate? Would I be a part of an organization? Or independent? Would mine be a "mega-church"? Or small church? Given the chance, would I preach on TV?

Well, the questions keep coming. And, since it ain't gonna happen in this lifetime, I guess theres no need to speculate. But it would be interesting to read what pastors... real pastors..would say....

What would a real pastor say? The question is what is a real pastor? Some of us can pastor with great wisdom but not be a great soul winner others are great soul winners but terrible pastors. That is why God gave the church the whole ministry Apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers. They are all to work together to equip the saints to do the work of the Ministry. Just my thoughts.

[HeavenlyOne]

I think it's about time for another Address. This one is almost a year old. Aren't these supposed to be done once a year?

[rgcraig]

I think it's about time for another Address. This one is almost a year old. Aren't these supposed to be done once a year?
ummmm.....look above and you even commented in the thread - :ursofunny

[OneAccord]

Another one? I never got paid for the last one! Or the one before that!

[rgcraig]

Another one? I never got paid for the last one! Or the one before that!

I believe HO forgot you had already posted for for 2008.

I'll send your check as soon as I get mine.

[Sister Alvear]

thanks for the laugh...love you folks...who knows a check might still come....ha..

[THX4GRACE]

Well I've always believed in Acts 2:38 and Jesus Name Baptism, however I've never believed that other Spirit filled individuals were "unsaved" Here's what I don't understand...... how do we reconcile that? We came out of a group of belivers in the early days that believed in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost mode of baptism. Many of us realize our Trinitarian Brothers have the same Holy Ghost that we have and we don't question their salvation, but we still hold to the Acts 2:38 message as the only way.