View Full Version : It's Time to Head Down to Splitsville
Cotton Mather
03-14-2007, 09:37 AM
This has been coming for quite some time. I couldn't tell you where it really began, but I can tell you where it is going to end.
It is going to end in Tampa, Florida in October. The United Pentecostal Church is going to vote in favor of television ministry and advertising. This will take place after a summer full of letters, Forward articles, and a lot of political mudslinging. The debate on the floor at this General Conference has the potential of being the livliest ever.
Each day the grumbling, and rumbling gets louder. It seems that there is great displeasure with the direction the movement is currently headed. It is apparent that there is a planned exit by a certain segment of the UPC already in place.
I think the time has come, as true unity is no longer present.
When elected officials begin attacking other elected officials publicly, unity is not present. When preachers call elected officials liars and thieves, unity is not present. When funding is withheld from critical organizational programs as a political statement, unity is not present.
The United Pentecostal Church cannot grow with this amount of contention present. It's time to head down to Splitsville.
Kutless
03-14-2007, 09:40 AM
Does Splitsville have any national landmarks?
Shakin' It Off
03-14-2007, 09:45 AM
When elected officials begin attacking other elected officials publiclyExample por favor.
Cotton Mather
03-14-2007, 09:48 AM
Example por favor.
Did you see that the AFF administrator locked a thread this morning?
There were a few elected officials posting on that thread.
The Antagonist
03-14-2007, 09:54 AM
This has been coming for quite some time. I couldn't tell you where it really began, but I can tell you where it is going to end.
It is going to end in Tampa, Florida in October. The United Pentecostal Church is going to vote in favor of television ministry and advertising. This will take place after a summer full of letters, Forward articles, and a lot of political mudslinging. The debate on the floor at this General Conference has the potential of being the livliest ever.
Each day the grumbling, and rumbling gets louder. It seems that there is great displeasure with the direction the movement is currently headed. It is apparent that there is a planned exit by a certain segment of the UPC already in place.
I think the time has come, as true unity is no longer present.
When elected officials begin attacking other elected officials publicly, unity is not present. When preachers call elected officials liars and thieves, unity is not present. When funding is withheld from critical organizational programs as a political statement, unity is not present.
The United Pentecostal Church cannot grow with this amount of contention present. It's time to head down to Splitsville.
It seems that I read somewhere about where there is confusion there is every evil work.
Can anyone here confirm if that statement is true or not?
Kutless
03-14-2007, 09:56 AM
How is a planned exit apparent???????????
Which side is doing the planning???????????
Shakin' It Off
03-14-2007, 09:56 AM
Did you see that the AFF administrator locked a thread this morning?
There were a few elected officials posting on that thread.Oh yes!
I like Cotton. Wrinkles easily but breathes well. :winkgrin
This has been coming for quite some time. I couldn't tell you where it really began, but I can tell you where it is going to end.
It is going to end in Tampa, Florida in October. The United Pentecostal Church is going to vote in favor of television ministry and advertising. This will take place after a summer full of letters, Forward articles, and a lot of political mudslinging. The debate on the floor at this General Conference has the potential of being the livliest ever.
Each day the grumbling, and rumbling gets louder. It seems that there is great displeasure with the direction the movement is currently headed. It is apparent that there is a planned exit by a certain segment of the UPC already in place.
I think the time has come, as true unity is no longer present.
When elected officials begin attacking other elected officials publicly, unity is not present. When preachers call elected officials liars and thieves, unity is not present. When funding is withheld from critical organizational programs as a political statement, unity is not present.
The United Pentecostal Church cannot grow with this amount of contention present. It's time to head down to Splitsville.
... which is why, I think the General Board needs to spend the summer working on spliting the organization right down the middle.
or at least along the lines of which side the members will gravitate to.
It has become obvious to the casual observer that things have coming to a breaking point ...
rgcraig
03-14-2007, 10:02 AM
....or at least take "United" out of the name.
Felicity
03-14-2007, 10:03 AM
Sad. :(
COOPER
03-14-2007, 10:04 AM
....or at least take "United" out of the name.
:igotit ..........And replace it with UN-TIED.
COOPER
03-14-2007, 10:06 AM
Sad. :(
S.A.D.......hmmm.
Stu-burn Apostolics Divided.
:icecream
Malvaro
03-14-2007, 10:08 AM
This has been coming for quite some time. I couldn't tell you where it really began, but I can tell you where it is going to end.
It is going to end in Tampa, Florida in October. The United Pentecostal Church is going to vote in favor of television ministry and advertising. This will take place after a summer full of letters, Forward articles, and a lot of political mudslinging. The debate on the floor at this General Conference has the potential of being the livliest ever.
Each day the grumbling, and rumbling gets louder. It seems that there is great displeasure with the direction the movement is currently headed. It is apparent that there is a planned exit by a certain segment of the UPC already in place.
I think the time has come, as true unity is no longer present.
When elected officials begin attacking other elected officials publicly, unity is not present. When preachers call elected officials liars and thieves, unity is not present. When funding is withheld from critical organizational programs as a political statement, unity is not present.
The United Pentecostal Church cannot grow with this amount of contention present. It's time to head down to Splitsville.
And here lies another anti-UPCer.... you folks are a dime-a-dozen....
BoredOutOfMyMind
03-14-2007, 10:08 AM
Did you see that the AFF administrator locked a thread this morning?
There were a few elected officials posting on that thread.
And so you start another thread BASHING the UPC.
Some of us think the ADVERTISING (not TV) issue will NOT pass in Tampa.
COOPER
03-14-2007, 10:09 AM
And here lies another anti-UPCer.... you folks are a dime-a-dozen....
But are steadily increasing in Value!:lol
The Antagonist
03-14-2007, 10:10 AM
I've lurked on some other Apostolic forums so, if what I've been reading has any grain of truth in it, it seems that the UPCI was fractured at the General Conference in 1992 or thereabouts at Salt Lake City, if not SPLIT at that time.
I could be wrong. But it seems that is when the split began, if there indeed is a split. But it seemed to be grandly and royally fractured, to say the least.
Seriously folks .... it is apparent that this retirement benefits package argument is being propped up... along with other carefully crafted one's to justify a long awaited split ....
If this is what the UC's are hanging on to .... along with the holiness argument then I say the fellowship is better off without those clowns .....
Why don't we get to the crux of the matter and stop dilly dallying ????
This has been something that has been deeply rooted for years.
This about money, power, ideology and influence .... not about injustice or some spiritual higher ground.
Esther
03-14-2007, 10:14 AM
So in your opinion who will the slipt go and what will be the issue(s)?
Kutless
03-14-2007, 10:15 AM
Seriously folks .... it is apparent that this retirement benefits package argument is being propped up... along with other carefully crafted one's to justify a long awaited split ....
If this is what the UC's are hanging on to .... along with the holiness argument then I say the fellowship is better off without those clowns .....
Why don't we get to the crux of the matter and stop dilly dallying ????
This has been something that has been deeply rooted for years.
This about money, power, ideology and influence .... not about injustice or some spiritual higher ground.An innocent bystander gives a HEARTY AMEN!!!!!
daddyof2
03-14-2007, 10:16 AM
Seriously folks .... it is apparent that this retirement benefits package argument is being propped up... along with other carefully crafted one's to justify a long awaited split ....
If this is what the UC's are hanging on to .... along with the holiness argument then I say the fellowship is better off without those clowns .....
Why don't we get to the crux of the matter and stop dilly dallying ????
This has been something that has been deeply rooted for years.
This about money, power, ideology and influence .... not about injustice or some spiritual higher ground.
It is not solely about a missionaries retirement benefits...the issue is much deeper.
End of story
So in your opinion who will the slipt go and what will be the issue(s)?
Issues that are and will be propagandized by both sides:
Holiness vs. Evangelism
Small Gov't vs. Bigger Gov't
Justice vs. Injustice
Spirituality vs. Carnality
but really it boils down to money, power, ideology and influence ...
Esther
03-14-2007, 10:22 AM
Issues that are and will be propagandized by both sides:
Holiness vs. Evangelism
Small Gov't vs. Small Gov't
Justice vs. Injustice
Spirituality vs. Carnality
but really it boils down to money, power, ideology and influence ...
???
The Antagonist
03-14-2007, 10:26 AM
Seriously folks .... it is apparent that this retirement benefits package argument is being propped up... along with other carefully crafted one's to justify a long awaited split ....
If this is what the UC's are hanging on to .... along with the holiness argument then I say the fellowship is better off without those clowns .....
Why don't we get to the crux of the matter and stop dilly dallying ????
This has been something that has been deeply rooted for years.
This about money, power, ideology and influence .... not about injustice or some spiritual higher ground.
What are UCs and why are they CLOWNS?
???
bigger gov't ... sorry
LadyChocolate
03-14-2007, 10:27 AM
What are UCs and why are they CLOWNS?
they are ultra conservatives and they are clowns because they don't agree with Dan!:lol
teasing ya DAN!!!
warrior81680
03-14-2007, 10:28 AM
It is not solely about a missionaries retirement benefits...the issue is much deeper.
End of story
You are right on that.
Malvaro
03-14-2007, 10:30 AM
But are steadily increasing in Value!:lol
perhaps increasing in number, but not in value....
Man, I hate for this to be my first post, but here goes:
Seriously folks .... it is apparent that this retirement benefits package argument is being propped up...
Apparent? How so? Do you have all the facts, or is the fact that the facts contradict indicate that no one knows exactly what has happened?
I've read the correspondences between the two primary parties. Have you?
If this is what the UC's are hanging on to .... along with the holiness argument then I say the fellowship is better off without those clowns .....Clowns? Are the UC's clowns because they hold standards you don't? They're clowns because the missionaries who preach these standards are prevented from doing so by the higher ups in the FMD?
Why don't we get to the crux of the matter and stop dilly dallying ????
This has been something that has been deeply rooted for years.
This about money, power, ideology and influence .... not about injustice or some spiritual higher ground. But, it's the UC's who are to blame? Sorry if I misread you, but that seems to be what you are insinuating.
Man, I hate for this to be my first post, but here goes:
Apparent? How so? Do you have all the facts, or is the fact that the facts contradict indicate that no one knows exactly what has happened?
I've read the correspondences between the two primary parties. Have you?
Clowns? Are the UC's clowns because they hold standards you don't? They're clowns because the missionaries who preach these standards are prevented from doing so by the higher ups in the FMD?
But, it's the UC's who are to blame? Sorry if I misread you, but that seems to be what you are insinuating.
OGIA ... or whoever you really are ...
Sorry for the clown comment it was in a fit of passion ....
It's obvious that the UC army is mobilizing prior to the election in Sept ... it started in Houston in '06 and it is taking a mind and force of it's own ...
Let's cut to the chase and get down to business .... documents mean nothing ... they are simply being compiled to make a case for DIVISION ....
Malvaro
03-14-2007, 10:39 AM
Sorry for the clown comment it was in a fit of passion ....
eventually your veiled slams will catch up with you....
Prediction made here on 3/14/07:
The AMF will merge with various UC UPCIers ....
eventually your veiled slams will catch up with you....
Malvaro ... what was so veiled about it????
rgcraig
03-14-2007, 10:44 AM
Malvaro ... what was so veiled about it????
I think he meant to say blatant.
Malvaro
03-14-2007, 10:45 AM
Malvaro ... what was so veiled about it????
the fact that you called an entire group of people "clowns" then said it was just a "fit of passion".... saying the same about moderates or libs would have been just as unreasonable....
Nahum
03-14-2007, 10:45 AM
Issues that are and will be propagandized by both sides:
Holiness vs. Evangelism
Small Gov't vs. Bigger Gov't
Justice vs. Injustice
Spirituality vs. Carnality
but really it boils down to money, power, ideology and influence ...
Daniel, this is a good post. There is a lot of truth here.
I would say money is the biggest issue you've mentioned. It is the issue everyone is overlooking in the television debate.
Malvaro
03-14-2007, 10:47 AM
I think he meant to say blatant.
right you are.... a bit distracted at work right now.... verbage didn't immediately come to mind....
The Dean
03-14-2007, 10:48 AM
the fact that you called an entire group of people "clowns" then said it was just a "fit of passion".... saying the same about moderates or libs would have been just as unreasonable....
And not on one thread but two! How much a fit of passion is putting such a remark on two threads when he drew heat from the first one?
:ranting
And not on one thread but two! How much a fit of passion is putting such a remark on two threads when he drew heat from the first one?
:ranting
Actually admin ... I posted it here first ... and the copy and pasted in the other within a minute or two
Nahum
03-14-2007, 10:50 AM
Issues that are and will be propagandized by both sides:
Holiness vs. Evangelism
Small Gov't vs. Bigger Gov't
Justice vs. Injustice
Spirituality vs. Carnality
but really it boils down to money, power, ideology and influence ...
Some of them are clowns, and obstructionists.:nod
Does anyone disagree with what Daniel posted in the quote above? These are the issues that divide us now.
OGIA ... or whoever you really are ...
Would knowing my real name make you feel better? :friend
It's obvious that the UC army is mobilizing prior to the election in Sept ... it started in Houston in '06 and it is taking a mind and force of it's own ...So? If the UC's don't agree with what's happening, shouldn't they have ammo for leaving? Or, would you rather they not give a reason? I don't think these men of God would leave "just because", do you?
Let's cut to the chase and get down to business .... documents mean nothing ... they are simply being compiled to make a case for DIVISION .... Documents mean nothing?? Legally, they are quite binding and revealing. I've seen the ones from both parties. I think that speaks of more than just assuming they may be erroneous or not worth their weight. *shrugs*
Would knowing my real name make you feel better? :friend
So? If the UC's don't agree with what's happening, shouldn't they have ammo for leaving? Or, would you rather they not give a reason? I don't think these men of God would leave "just because", do you?
Documents mean nothing?? Legally, they are quite binding and revealing. I've seen the ones from both parties. I think that speaks of more than just assuming they may be erroneous or not worth their weight. *shrugs*
Documents presented as a montage are A form of propaganda ... it's an tried and true ... political technique .....
Let's get to the heart of the matter ... stop building munitions ....
This is simply part of a well-thought campaign to buffer of lost of power the UC's are feeling ....
Yet they are holding out ... hope ... perhaps waiting for a favorable vote on TV and electing a GS that will CLEAN UP HOUSE ....
Documents presented as a montage are form of propaganda ... it's an tried and true ... political technique .....Has the fact that both sides' documents have been viewed matter? Do you believe the documents from the FMD are false, created to support only one side?
This is simply part of a well-thought campaign to buffer of lost of power the UC's are feeling .... And the liberal faction could be just as easily accused of the same thing, my friend. Their "liberality" is being attacked and it is causing unease. Just depends on which set of glasses you choose to wear, right?
Yet they are holding out ... hope ... perhaps waiting for a favorable vote on TV and electing a GS that will CLEAN UP HOUSE .... You fault them for this?
RevDWW
03-14-2007, 11:03 AM
....or at least take "United" out of the name.
:slaphappy :slaphappy That there is f-u-n-n-y!!! :ursofunny :ursofunny
Has the fact that both sides' documents have been viewed matter? Do you believe the documents from the FMD are false, created to support only one side?
And the liberal faction could be just as easily accused of the same thing, my friend. Their "liberality" is being attacked and it is causing unease. Just depends on which set of glasses you choose to wear, right?
You fault them for this?
This is politics as usual and it disgusts me ... let's call a spade a spade and stop with the PROPAGANDA.
What you don't understand ... OGIA ... is I have no rooting interest .... I left months ago ...
But it is OBVIOUS WHAT'S GOING ON HERE ..... LET'S STOP PLAYING PATTY CAKE ... and get on with it.
Issues that are and will be propagandized by both sides:
Holiness vs. Evangelism
Small Gov't vs. Bigger Gov't
Justice vs. Injustice
Spirituality vs. Carnality
but really it boils down to money, power, ideology and influence ...
Some of them are clowns, and obstructionists.:nod
Does anyone disagree with what Daniel posted in the quote above? These are the issues that divide us now.
PP ... they are too blinded by their ideological allegiances to see ANYTHING.
while some are denigrating their precieved enemies and others are choosing up sides (I suppose for the purpose of smelling armpits)
I think both sides are more good than bad. the problem is, it appears we have reached the point where we cannot be as effective together as we would be sperated.
Folks, I have nothing bad to say about either group. What would the point be? I think both of these groups are full of good men who Love God.
Why wrangle over this? why split hairs and pitch battles. Lets just figure out who will go where, and divide the accets accordingly. Do it with a spirit of love and brotherhood but get it done.
Paul had to split from the Jerusalem church. That isnt a bad thing.
This is politics as usual and it disgusts me ... let's call a spade a spade and stop with the PROPAGANDA. The politics is being played from one side, friend. Lawsuits are being threatened by one side. If that is so, then there must be support from the one being sued, and that support is in the form of documents from both sides.
We'll see.
But it is OBVIOUS WHAT'S GOING ON HERE ..... LET'S STOP PLAYING PATTY CAKE ... and get on with it. Get on with what? :dunno
Malvaro
03-14-2007, 11:11 AM
This is politics as usual and it disgusts me ... let's call a spade a spade and stop with the PROPAGANDA.
What you don't understand ... OGIA ... is I have no rooting interest .... I left months ago ...
But it is OBVIOUS WHAT'S GOING ON HERE ..... LET'S STOP PLAYING PATTY CAKE ... and get on with it.
admitting you left the UPC opens you up to the idea that you are just speaking from an anti-UPC perspective, with no vested interest in its survival.... it was probably unwise to admit that fact....
The politics is being played from one side, friend. Lawsuits are being threatened by one side. If that is so, then there must be support from the one being sued, and that support is in the form of documents from both sides.
We'll see.
Get on with what? :dunno
You are blinded by your ideology friend ... this is a two way street ... the games are sickening and blatant ....
Take it somewhere else ... cuz I ain't buying it ... I know how this game works ....
Get on with the DIVISION ... it's my honest opinion ... although it would never be called one.
admitting you left the UPC opens you up to the idea that you are just speaking from an anti-UPC perspective, with no vested interest in its survival.... it was probably unwise to admit that fact....
That's public knowledge ... I've stated that many times Malvaro ....
I have very good friends and bonds in the fellowship ... I like many see it being hijacked and would like nothing more to see that element be exposed for what it is. No sugar coating here.
Issues that are and will be propagandized by both sides:
Holiness vs. Evangelism
Small Gov't vs. Bigger Gov't
Justice vs. Injustice
Spirituality vs. Carnality
but really it boils down to money, power, ideology and influence ...
Daniel, this is a good post. There is a lot of truth here.
I would say money is the biggest issue you've mentioned. It is the issue everyone is overlooking in the television debate.
The politics is being played from one side, friend. Lawsuits are being threatened by one side. If that is so, then there must be support from the one being sued, and that support is in the form of documents from both sides.
We'll see.
Get on with what? :dunno
no sir, you dont get to play this card. there is plenty of politics being played by every side. you are talking about 1 issue that is very new. we have been heading down this path since 1992.
you gonna tell me the conservitives havnt been 'playing politics'? please.
***edit, both sides have been playing politics since the merger***
no sir, you dont get to play this card. there is plenty of politics being played by every side. you are talking about 1 issue that is very new. we have been heading down this path since 1992.
you gonna tell me the conservitives havnt been 'playing politics'? please.
***edit, both sides have been playing politics since the merger***
Some .... would like to whitewash history Ferd.
BoredOutOfMyMind
03-14-2007, 11:17 AM
That's public knowledge ... I've stated that many times Malvaro ....
I have very good friends and bonds in the fellowship ... I like many see it being hijacked and would like nothing more to see that element be exposed for what it is. No sugar coating here.
This does not fit what some others see-
They see it as becoming so liberal it is destined to soon fail.
That's public knowledge ... I've stated that many times Malvaro ....
I have very good friends and bonds in the fellowship ... I like many see it being hijacked and would like nothing more to see that element be exposed for what it is. No sugar coating here.
I dont know that I would say the UPCI has been hijacked. I do belive that someone poisoned the well and forgot to tell everybody else.
there is plenty of bad to go around.
This does not fit what some others see-
They see it as becoming so liberal it is destined to soon fail.
This is why an open discussion needs to happen .... or we can continue to bring down the Church ..... of which all sides are guilty of.
This does not fit what some others see-
They see it as becoming so liberal it is destined to soon fail.
BOOM that is the problem there are several different groups that all see this vastly different from each other. I dont know that there is a right and wrong here. just a different. we got some folk talking one language and another group of folk talking another language. both dont understand why the other refueses to learn their language.
Elder Westburg played the endgame in 1992. we just didnt know it. He might have been a visionary.
Some .... would like to whitewash history Ferd.
true. and some would like to distort it.
You are blinded by your ideology friend ... And what ideology do you suppose I am blinded by, friend? Seems you've already pegged me as something or other, though.
this is a two way street Not sure where I said it wasn't a two-way street?
Take it somewhere else ... cuz I ain't buying it ... I ain't trying to sell you anything. I simply replied to your accusation about UC's being clowns because, apparently, they don't agree with your assessment of the situation.
And what ideology do you suppose I am blinded by, friend? Seems you've already pegged me as something or other, though.
Not sure where I said it wasn't a two-way street?
I ain't trying to sell you anything. I simply replied to your accusation about UC's being clowns because, apparently, they don't agree with your assessment of the situation.
Game over.
Game over.No game here, but fine with me. :thumbsup
Scott Hutchinson
03-14-2007, 12:15 PM
People are always forming organizations and fellowships there are plenty of groups out there to join ,that are con ,liberal inbetween.
But when splits occur innocent people are adversly affected.
But when folks disagree with others in the Body Of Christ it's not Godly to spew venom at each other ,the Holy Ghost don't misbehave like that.
But when folks disagree with others in the Body Of Christ it's not Godly to spew venom at each other ,the Holy Ghost don't misbehave like that.
I nominate this for post of the day. :nod
Scott Hutchinson
03-14-2007, 12:38 PM
I nominate this for post of the day. :nod
Thank you Sister Tina if we act ugly towards one another ,why should sinners desire our Holy Ghost?
Carpenter
03-14-2007, 12:47 PM
A split is technially defined as 50-50, both sides having mostly identical parts.
I hardly think this will be the case whatever the cause, whenever the timeframe.
I will make a prediction...
Any division is going to effect the smaller churches most, those who rely on funds and resources provided by the HQ. This is why some churches remain regardless of their dissention.
Larger and prolific churches on both sides of the conservative-liberal isle will go on and function as though nothing happened.
What I think folks may not understand is that the garden variety saint has no clue as to the goings on in General Conference. There are buzzes, anecdotes, whispers, but really nothing of any substance that will dramatically change how the church operates.
The pastor will continue on preaching what he has always preached, and should the church leave the UPC, chances are it will have little or no effect.
What we may not remember or be willing to admit is that the church HAS a culture and a social element that keeps people attached and engaged to the extent their nature has been defined by their church identity.
It is all about relationships. Do church folks follow more the convictions of the organization or the convictions of the pastor? This should be an all TOO easy question to answer.
People and churches for the most part will not notice if they do not have an outside need. (assuming of course ALL pastors have enough integrity not to bad mouth the organization regardless of where they fall along the conservative-liberal continum).
whollyHis
03-14-2007, 12:47 PM
Thank you Sister Tina if we act ugly towards one another ,why should sinners desire our Holy Ghost?
Sinners, nothing, Bro. Scott- it makes me sick to my stomach, and I'm a member of the family!!!!! It makes me wonder just many will actually BE saved, when it's all said and done, and the curtain of time has been drawn for the last time.
Sad, if you ask me...(...I realize no one DID)
Carpenter
03-14-2007, 12:50 PM
Oh, and the attitude that, "If they don't like it they should just leave..." is a cop out.
Carpenter
03-14-2007, 12:52 PM
Sinners, nothing, Bro. Scott- it makes me sick to my stomach, and I'm a member of the family!!!!! It makes me wonder just many will actually BE saved, when it's all said and done, and the curtain of time has been drawn for the last time.
Sad, if you ask me...(...I realize no one DID)
I think this is the problem, people are too concerned with who and if OTHERS will be saved instead of worrying about themselves. Indignant religious judgement of others is the fuel for religious conflict.
Nahum
03-14-2007, 12:56 PM
I think its time to admit that the problems we face are real. We are at an impasse in our movement. Heels dug in, jaw set, and lines drawn in the sand.
There is no turning back, and somethings gotta give.
Hopefully, no one will perceive that as a slam against the UPC. It is simple truth.
Scott Hutchinson
03-14-2007, 12:57 PM
Sinners, nothing, Bro. Scott- it makes me sick to my stomach, and I'm a member of the family!!!!! It makes me wonder just many will actually BE saved, when it's all said and done, and the curtain of time has been drawn for the last time.
Sad, if you ask me...(...I realize no one DID)
Thanks Sister I appreciate your spirit.
Carpenter
03-14-2007, 12:59 PM
I think its time to admit that the problems we face are real. We are at an impasse in our movement. Heels dug in, jaw set, and lines drawn in the sand.
There is no turning back, and somethings gotta give.
Hopefully, no one will perceive that as a slam against the UPC. It is simple truth.
PP, the sky is blue, water is wet, and an organization with its piers drilled into the bedrock of tradition will always have problems with contemporary demands for growth.
This latest missionary fiasco may be the spark that lights the powder keg ....
It parallels with the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand of Austria .... it set off a chain of events that set Europe on fire ... igniting WWI ...
This of course ... was not the cause ... militarism, imperialism, and nationalism were the deep rooted causes that had been ignored for years. IMHO
StillStanding
03-14-2007, 01:04 PM
Wow! Things are heating up!
The line is drawn, and both sides will be recruiting furiously to their ideology. This is going to get nasty!
Kutless
03-14-2007, 01:05 PM
Wow! Things are heating up!
The line is drawn, and both sides will be recruiting furiously to their ideology. This is going to get nasty!Yeah and its just March.
This latest missionary fiasco may be the spark that lights the powder keg ....
It parallels with the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand of Austria .... it set off a chain of events that set Europe on fire ... igniting WWI ...
This of course ... was not the cause ... militarism, imperialism, and nationalism were the deep rooted causes that had been ignored for years. IMHO
...has the feel of the Etheopian debacle.
I think its time to admit that the problems we face are real. We are at an impasse in our movement. Heels dug in, jaw set, and lines drawn in the sand.
There is no turning back, and somethings gotta give.
Hopefully, no one will perceive that as a slam against the UPC. It is simple truth.I perceive it for what it is -- truth, as you said. There are members who simply don't agree with the trends, decisions, etc. And they are weighing or have weighed their options. Very simple. They'll either stick with it a bit longer or get out.
Malvaro
03-14-2007, 01:11 PM
This latest missionary fiasco may be the spark that lights the powder keg ....
It parallels with the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand of Austria .... it set off a chain of events that set Europe on fire ... igniting WWI ...
man, do you even think before you type some of this stuff??? how can you compare the "FM" situation to the assassination that started a World War??
*walks away just shaking his head*
man, do you even think before you type some of this stuff??? how can you compare the "FM" situation to the assassination that started a World War??
*walks away just shaking his head*
Malvaro ... they are making the missionary into a martyr ... intentionally ....
StillStanding
03-14-2007, 01:16 PM
Yeah and its just March.
I hope no one feels they need to "pack heat" to go to GC! :)
Malvaro ... they are making the missionary into a martyr ... intentionally ....
No, "they're" just desiring to see him and his family treated with the diginity that the ones who "submit" get treated with.
by making him [the missionary] the cause ... a rallying cry.... the last thing that will happen is that the system of alliances will make everyone choose sides.
It seems that I read somewhere about where there is confusion there is every evil work.
Can anyone here confirm if that statement is true or not?
Does everything have to ba a litigated fact? Can't some things be an opinion?
No, "they're" just desiring to see him and his family treated with the diginity that the ones who "submit" get treated with. *rolls eyes*
Exhibit A.
Exhibit A.At least I've got an exhibit (more than one, to be truthful). You're flying solely on opinion, friend.
Esther
03-14-2007, 01:19 PM
Malvaro ... they are making the missionary into a martyr ... intentionally ....
Who is "they"?
The Antagonist
03-14-2007, 01:19 PM
man, do you even think before you type some of this stuff??? how can you compare the "FM" situation to the assassination that started a World War??
*walks away just shaking his head*
Yeah, I'm shaking my head too.
However, I said it before, I think the split was effected in Salt Lake in 1992. At least it was so severely fractured that a split is probably certain.
Yeah, I'm shaking my head too.
However, I said it before, I think the split was effected in Salt Lake in 1992. At least it was so severely fractured that a split is probably certain.
Of course as I said ... there is a deep underlying history .... but apparently this spinning of the FM situation is designed for people to choose sides ... it's blatant .... and calculating
At least I've got an exhibit (more than one, to be truthful). You're flying solely on opinion, friend.
my opinion is the analysis of a casual but fair observer .... this missionary is now being used as a pawn for a 'greater cause' ....
BoredOutOfMyMind
03-14-2007, 01:23 PM
Malvaro ... they are making the missionary into a martyr ... intentionally ....
Tweeeeeeeeeeet
Ok, end of the Missionary discussion.
Admin closed that thread and are going to start giving infractions
That topic is CLOSED
my opinion is the analysis of a casual but fair observer ....With the insinuation that all others are not being fair, right?
this missionary is now being used as a pawn Ever think it was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back? What was it with you? What was the last straw that cemented your decision to "leave"? Can you have one and these men not?
With the insinuation that all others are not being fair, right?
Ever think it was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back? What was it with you? What was the last straw that cemented your decision to "leave"? Can you have one and these men not?
I will not discuss it anymore ... as per BOOM .... but by stating it's the proverbial straw to break the camel's back you just validated my parallel to the assassination of the Archduke in 1914.
Thank you.
The Antagonist
03-14-2007, 01:30 PM
Of course as I said ... there is a deep underlying history .... but apparently this FM situation is designed for people to choose sides ... it's blatant .... and calculating
So it appears.
Political posturing is an important element when you are headed to a show down.
Too many men desire to be God.
Carpenter
03-14-2007, 01:31 PM
Wow! Things are heating up!
The line is drawn, and both sides will be recruiting furiously to their ideology. This is going to get nasty!
Nah, one of the big guys under divine revelation will show up at the last minute with a definition statement (just like at the merger), stating that no one will contend for their own views and that unity, brotherly love, and all that will remain so the organization can remain...then give it 40 or so more years until the statement is obliterated by some affirmation statement...
History has a way of repeating itself dontcha know... :toofunny
Michael Phelps
03-14-2007, 01:33 PM
....or at least take "United" out of the name.
Maybe "UN-TIED" would be more appropriate?
I will not discuss it anymore ... as per BOOM ....Neither will I.
but by stating it's the proverbial straw to break the camel's back you just validated my parallel to the assassination of the Archduke in 1914.So, what was the straw for you? And are you the only one entitled to having one to be the final blow to your tolerance? Why not these "UC's" you've painted as having no reason to be dividing along lines of tolerance as they see it?
Neither will I.
So, what was the straw for you? And are you the only one entitled to having one to be the final blow to your tolerance? Why not these "UC's" you've painted as having no reason to be dividing along lines of tolerance as they see it?
The ideology that is now trying to subvert ..... the entire system .... that's what did it for me ... but never did I try to use someone else's misfortunes to validate what I felt for a long time.
Just call it like it is ... and stop trying to justify it ....
Nahum
03-14-2007, 01:58 PM
The ideology that is now trying to subvert ..... the entire system .... that's what did it for me ... but never did I try to use someone else's misfortunes to validate what I felt for a long time.
Just call it like it is ... and stop trying to justify it ....
I think the word "subvert" is a good description of what is happening currently. There is this idea that "Headquarters" is out to revolutionize the movement in a new and liberal way.
In my eyes I see what some call "liberalization" as nothing more than gradualism. A large segment of the org has begun to move with the culture. I mean this in a relevant way, not a sinful way.
This has been going on for sometime, and the internet is mostly to blame. It caught us all by surprise. There is no turning back though.
Esther
03-14-2007, 02:01 PM
I think the word "subvert" is a good description of what is happening currently. There is this idea that "Headquarters" is out to revolutionize the movement in a new and liberal way.
In my eyes I see what some call "liberalization" as nothing more than gradualism. A large segment of the org has begun to move with the culture. I mean this in a relevant way, not a sinful way.
This has been going on for sometime, and the internet is mostly to blame. It caught us all by surprise. There is no turning back though.
What exactly caught you by surprise?
Wow! Things are heating up!
The line is drawn, and both sides will be recruiting furiously to their ideology. This is going to get nasty!
I told you all back on FCF a long time ago but you didn't believe me then.
CC was the Biggest one to come against me. because it didn't happen right then and there he said i was posting false information.
well, here we are !
BUUUUUT!!! I'm not saying anything ! I've had 4 threads locked or deleted in less than one week ! ! ! !
BY BY
tbpew
03-14-2007, 02:01 PM
So it appears.
Political posturing is an important element when you are headed to a show down.
Too many men desire to be God.
or maybe are just striving to make disciples unto themselves:nod
The ideology that is now trying to subvert ..... the entire system .... that's what did it for me ... but never did I try to use someone else's misfortunes to validate what I felt for a long time. I still don't see how one person's misfortune is a reason to accuse someone of using this ONE EVENT to justify leaving an organization? You seem to think you're the only one who's had a justifiable reason in the past. These men are simply responding to yet ANOTHER action by those they have not agreed with for some time now. But, you don't seem to want to allow them that liberty? You simply write it off as UC's being UC's. Pretty sad.
Just call it like it is ... and stop trying to justify it I call it choice. Just like you had. You have justified your actions for what you chose to do and so are those who have a decision to make about yet ANOTHER straw on the camel's back. If anything, I give them honor for sticking it out so long despite not agreeing with everything HQ decided. Some don't seem to have that kind of committment these days.
Nahum
03-14-2007, 02:07 PM
What exactly caught you by surprise?
Well, we had no resolution against the internet.
Technology surpassed our legal system. It was the Trojan Horse we let in without realizing that it would impact the way we view issues pertaining to media.
And now, with the technologies merging further, there are some too filled with pride to admit that it is time to have one consistent stance regarding ALL media. Others are accepting any garbage that is parlayed through any outlet.
Two very extreme points of view. Most issues in the movement are founded along that ideological fault-line.
Malvaro
03-14-2007, 02:09 PM
I still don't see how one person's misfortune is a reason to accuse someone of using this ONE EVENT to justify leaving an organization? You seem to think you're the only one who's had a justifiable reason in the past. These men are simply responding to yet ANOTHER action by those they have not agreed with for some time now. But, you don't seem to want to allow them that liberty? You simply write it off as UC's being UC's. Pretty sad.
watch it! BOOMM already told everyone that the missionary thing is closed on AFF....
Esther
03-14-2007, 02:10 PM
Well, we had no resolution against the internet.
Technology surpassed our legal system. It was the Trojan Horse we let in without realizing that it would impact the way we view issues pertaining to media.
And now, with the technologies merging further, there are some too filled with pride to admit that it is time to have one consistent stance regarding ALL media. Others are accepting any garbage that is parlayed through any outlet.
Two very extreme points of view. Most issues in the movement are founded along that ideological fault-line.
Thank you.
Nahum
03-14-2007, 02:14 PM
Thank you.
You're very welcome.
It is important to note that the UPC will survive this. We have been through similar trials, though not this large, and not this drawn out.
It will be interesting (if this passes) to see if the prognosticators who predict a resulting charismatic trend are right.
Well, we had no resolution against the internet.
Technology surpassed our legal system. It was the Trojan Horse we let in without realizing that it would impact the way we view issues pertaining to media.
And now, with the technologies merging further, there are some too filled with pride to admit that it is time to have one consistent stance regarding ALL media. Others are accepting any garbage that is parlayed through any outlet.PP, you do certainly realize that some men are starting to draw the line at the internet, too, right? It's pretty clear that the UPC is not going that way, though. I certainly haven't, either.
Malvaro
03-14-2007, 02:18 PM
Issues that are and will be propagandized by both sides:
Holiness vs. Evangelism
Small Gov't vs. Bigger Gov't
Justice vs. Injustice
Spirituality vs. Carnality
Daniel brought out some good observations with this post, and it would be my recommendation to focus on these issues in your continued discussions as to avoid having this thread being closed because of the "missionary" debate....
Pastor Poster's "internet/media" observations are fair game as well....
Nahum
03-14-2007, 02:20 PM
Daniel brought out some good observations with this post, and it would be my recommendation to focus on these issues in your continued discussions as to avoid having this thread being closed because of the "missionary" debate....
Pastor Poster's "internet/media" observations are fair game as well....
Daniel's observations were entirely accurate, and well thought out.
I would hate to see this discussion die over the other issue.
Malvaro
03-14-2007, 02:21 PM
carry on....
No, "they're" just desiring to see him and his family treated with the diginity that the ones who "submit" get treated with.
On an abstract level, not dealing with the situation at hand this would imply that a person was asked to do something by their supervisor, refused to do so and expects to be treated the same as one who complied with the request of legitimate authority.
Now I'm scratching my head about unrealistic expectations.
Kind of like the person I tell "If you do such and such you will not longer be permitted to teach Sunday School." They then go and do such and such and come back complaining because someone else who didn't do such and such is still teaching Sunday School. I'm plain out confused.
*****I don't want to discuss the situation - but the concept intrigues me.******
Nahum
03-14-2007, 02:22 PM
PP, you do certainly realize that some men are starting to draw the line at the internet, too, right? It's pretty clear that the UPC is not going that way, though. I certainly haven't, either.
Well I would admire that sort of consistency - even though I preach moderation over abstinence (media-wise :happydance)
Malvaro
03-14-2007, 02:24 PM
On an abstract level, not dealing with the situation at hand this would imply that a person was asked to do something by their supervisor, refused to do so and expects to be treated the same as one who complied with the request of legitimate authority.
Now I'm scratching my head about unrealistic expectations.
Kind of like the person I tell "If you do such and such you will not longer be permitted to teach Sunday School." They then go and do such and such and come back complaining because someone else who didn't do such and such is still teaching Sunday School. I'm plain out confused.
Guy, the mission debate is closed, even on an "abstract level".... consider this a warning....
Guy, the mission debate is closed, even on an "abstract level".... consider this a warning....
So warned - I'm out of here for now.
You've got to admit though, it is an interesting concept.
This has been coming for quite some time. I couldn't tell you where it really began, but I can tell you where it is going to end.
It is going to end in Tampa, Florida in October. The United Pentecostal Church is going to vote in favor of television ministry and advertising. This will take place after a summer full of letters, Forward articles, and a lot of political mudslinging. The debate on the floor at this General Conference has the potential of being the livliest ever.
Each day the grumbling, and rumbling gets louder. It seems that there is great displeasure with the direction the movement is currently headed. It is apparent that there is a planned exit by a certain segment of the UPC already in place.
I think the time has come, as true unity is no longer present.
When elected officials begin attacking other elected officials publicly, unity is not present. When preachers call elected officials liars and thieves, unity is not present. When funding is withheld from critical organizational programs as a political statement, unity is not present.
The United Pentecostal Church cannot grow with this amount of contention present. It's time to head down to Splitsville.
Whew!! Scared me, CM...thought you and the Mrs. (not to be confused with 'The Mrs.') were coming to a parting of the ways as they say...
Malvaro
03-14-2007, 02:31 PM
PP, you do certainly realize that some men are starting to draw the line at the internet, too, right? It's pretty clear that the UPC is not going that way, though. I certainly haven't, either.
the internet has really become intertwined with many aspects of our lives.... telecommunications, news sources, emails/faxes, sending pictures to fam/friends, work-related applications.... imo, an anti-internet stance is impractical for today's generation; one dealing with appropriate usage would definitely be the way to go from a pastoring perspective....
Esther
03-14-2007, 02:32 PM
the internet has really become intertwined with many aspects of our lives.... telecommunications, new sources, emails/faxes, sending pictures to fam/friends, work-related applications.... imo, an anti-internet stance is impractical for today's generation; one dealing with appropriate usage would definitely be the way to go from a pastoring perspective....
Which should encompass all media sources, don't you think?
Malvaro
03-14-2007, 02:36 PM
So warned - I'm out of here for now.
You've got to admit though, it is an interesting concept.
Guy.... opening another thread with your isolated "thought concept" without any "missionary debate" associations/references - open or hidden otherwise.... would be perfectly acceptable, provided that the "missionary thing" isn't brought back up at all....
StillStanding
03-14-2007, 02:36 PM
Nah, one of the big guys under divine revelation will show up at the last minute with a definition statement (just like at the merger), stating that no one will contend for their own views and that unity, brotherly love, and all that will remain so the organization can remain...then give it 40 or so more years until the statement is obliterated by some affirmation statement...
History has a way of repeating itself dontcha know... :toofunny
Now THAT is funny! :neener
Im sitting here on the curb of life watching 2 teenagers playing chicken in their parents car. problem is, neither is willing to loose.
we all know it is going to end badly and people are going to get hurt but there aint nothing that can be done.
too many people staring in their own personal movie.
Nahum
03-14-2007, 02:43 PM
Im sitting here on the curb of life watching 2 teenagers playing chicken in their parents car. problem is, neither is willing to loose.
we all know it is going to end badly and people are going to get hurt but there aint nothing that can be done.
too many people staring in their own personal movie.
So true, that's why pushing this back a year was such a horrible idea.
It accomplished nothing.
So true, that's why pushing this back a year was such a horrible idea.
It accomplished nothing.
well, some would say it gave the teenagers more time with the gas peddle. it looks like it accomplished quite a bit more than anyone wanted...
what I really want to know is who is going to foot the emergency room bill?
imo, an anti-internet stance is impractical for today's generation; one dealing with appropriate usage would definitely be the way to go from a pastoring perspective....I agree, but I do respect those men who are choosing/have chosen abstinence. They seem to have made it this far without the internet and feel they can go further, and I guess, all the way.
BoredOutOfMyMind
03-14-2007, 02:57 PM
well, some would say it gave the teenagers more time with the gas peddle. it looks like it accomplished quite a bit more than anyone wanted...
what I really want to know is who is going to foot the emergency room bill?
Ferd, you crack me up always declaring as if you had a vote in this.
What I ask remains unanswered. If this does not pass, and by some miracle the UPC does not split, are the group of you calling for all this going to leave?
:aaa
Ferd, you crack me up always declaring as if you had a vote in this.
What I ask remains unanswered. If this does not pass, and by some miracle the UPC does not split, are the group of you calling for all this going to leave?
:aaa
wait a second BOOM. Im not picking a side. if youve read what ive said today you should understand that my view is that it isnt about who is right. It is about what is happening.
I dont have a vote, that doesnt mean I dont have some stake. the last time we did this little diddy was about the Etheopian debacle. remember? that cost MY church 40 souls. I have a stake BOOM, reguardless of not having a vote.
I dont think it will be a miracle if the UPCI doesnt split. If it doesnt split, that will mean some men drift off on their own with much less fellowship and much less cover and they will be much more subject to the whims of the wind.
I would much rather see 2 strong organizations with a common goal than to see one larger yet weaker organizaiton pulling against itself. that isnt distructive.
BoredOutOfMyMind
03-14-2007, 03:43 PM
wait a second BOOM. Im not picking a side. if youve read what ive said today you should understand that my view is that it isnt about who is right. It is about what is happening.
.
And it is talk about what is happening more than actually what IS happenning. Maybe I need to get out more and breath less pure oxygen.
:tiphat
And it is talk about what is happening more than actually what IS happenning. Maybe I need to get out more and breath less pure oxygen.
:tiphat
review the tapes. count my posts on that subject.
The Antagonist
03-14-2007, 04:25 PM
You're very welcome.
It is important to note that the UPC will survive this. We have been through similar trials, though not this large, and not this drawn out.
It will be interesting (if this passes) to see if the prognosticators who predict a resulting charismatic trend are right.
Of course it will survive this. I'm quite certain that they will survive the rapture too. I see little prognostication when certain trends are established. If a tree is leaning toward the ground already, there is little question which way the tree will fall when a wind hits it.
tbpew
03-14-2007, 04:30 PM
Of course it will survive this. I'm quite certain that they will survive the rapture too. I see little prognostication when certain trends are established. If a tree is leaning toward the ground already, there is little question which way the tree will fall when a wind hits it.
*i am a mere grasshopper among a rhetorical giant*
Nahum
03-14-2007, 04:50 PM
Of course it will survive this. I'm quite certain that they will survive the rapture too. I see little prognostication when certain trends are established. If a tree is leaning toward the ground already, there is little question which way the tree will fall when a wind hits it.
How do you really feel about it? :winkgrin
The Antagonist
03-14-2007, 05:03 PM
How do you really feel about it? :winkgrin
LOL!
You might agree that its kind of like watching a cannon ball coming straight at your head in very slow motion. :nah You know what's going to happen but you also know its too late to duck to dodge it.
slave4him
03-14-2007, 05:07 PM
2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
slave4him
03-14-2007, 05:10 PM
It saddens me to see how many post on here and sound joyful about men breaking fellowship. If the upci splits as sad as I might be or you might be the church will still be as strong as ever and it will not change. I wish some of you would read back over this thread and read your post. Maybe you might rethink your attitudes.
Nahum
03-14-2007, 05:11 PM
Don't bring the Bible into this!
Nahum
03-14-2007, 05:11 PM
It saddens me to see how many post on here and sound joyful about men breaking fellowship. If the upci splits as sad as I might be or you might be the church will still be as strong as ever and it will not change. I wish some of you would read back over this thread and read your post. Maybe you might rethink your attitudes.
I am not happy about it at all. I don't think anyone is.
The Antagonist
03-14-2007, 05:18 PM
I am not happy about it at all. I don't think anyone is.
You are right again.
Few are truly happy about it. Still, as long as you don't have glycloma **edit** OUCH!
Post edited by myself.
I've been warned that my post was a "bit too strong."
Sorry!
BoredOutOfMyMind
03-14-2007, 05:22 PM
Gentlemen, please remember this is a Family board with a public eye.
Carpenter
03-14-2007, 05:58 PM
It saddens me to see how many post on here and sound joyful about men breaking fellowship. If the upci splits as sad as I might be or you might be the church will still be as strong as ever and it will not change. I wish some of you would read back over this thread and read your post. Maybe you might rethink your attitudes.
I don't think anyone is hoping for the UPC to split so that it will no longer exist, or that somehow it will be weakened (from whatever perspective). I believe and I think others do as well, that the UPC needs to establish and solidify their position on issues like never before, be distinct, be precise, whether it be TV or no TV, conservative or not so conservative. The UPC is slowly losing its identity beyond simply appearing to be separate from mainstream religion.
I am all for the UPC becomming the most strict and conservative organization on the planet. The UPC needs definition.
Brother Price
03-14-2007, 07:25 PM
I read on these forums, and read some more, and it seems to me that some would like nothing more than for the entire UPCI to disintegrate. There is a call it seems, like one I heard not too long ago, to leave the UPCI. Why? How dare we hope that fellowship dissolves and brethren separate over the issue of TV?! Just who do we think we are, some of us, hoping for this?
There will be no splitsville, and if there is, it is because someone was looking for a way out and plans to use TV as an excuse. That is as plain and simple as one can get. Regardless of what happens, I am in a UPC church home, and am staying in my UPC church home.
God Bless His People Everywhere! Thank Jesus for the UPC!
Praxeas
03-14-2007, 07:41 PM
I read on these forums, and read some more, and it seems to me that some would like nothing more than for the entire UPCI to disintegrate. There is a call it seems, like one I heard not too long ago, to leave the UPCI. Why? How dare we hope that fellowship dissolves and brethren separate over the issue of TV?! Just who do we think we are, some of us, hoping for this?
There will be no splitsville, and if there is, it is because someone was looking for a way out and plans to use TV as an excuse. That is as plain and simple as one can get. Regardless of what happens, I am in a UPC church home, and am staying in my UPC church home.
God Bless His People Everywhere! Thank Jesus for the UPC!
Same sort of folks that secretly hope a church down the street falls apart so they can possibly absorb new members perhaps?
Brother Price
03-14-2007, 08:05 PM
Exactly Prax! We need to stop this foolishness and go win souls.
Carpenter
03-14-2007, 08:26 PM
I read on these forums, and read some more, and it seems to me that some would like nothing more than for the entire UPCI to disintegrate. There is a call it seems, like one I heard not too long ago, to leave the UPCI. Why? How dare we hope that fellowship dissolves and brethren separate over the issue of TV?! Just who do we think we are, some of us, hoping for this?
There will be no splitsville, and if there is, it is because someone was looking for a way out and plans to use TV as an excuse. That is as plain and simple as one can get. Regardless of what happens, I am in a UPC church home, and am staying in my UPC church home.
God Bless His People Everywhere! Thank Jesus for the UPC!
I am starting to think that people only read negative posts, you certainly didn't get this from me.
rrford
03-14-2007, 08:28 PM
I am starting to think that people only read negative posts, you certainly didn't get this from me.
But aren't most of your posts negative? :grampa
Could he be sticking his finger in the air to see which way the wind is blowing?
I am starting to think that people only read negative posts, you certainly didn't get this from me.
Carpenter
03-14-2007, 11:43 PM
But aren't most of your posts negative? :grampa
I don't think so. It is not a negative thing when you are calling for an organization to define themselves as I have done...not that it matters to even an ant standing on a hill of beans.
What would you have me do, sing its praises, and do a rain dance proclaiming all is well with a well oiled, well functioning, relevant and UNITED group of leaders?
What is it that paves a road to the hot place...something about good intentions?
I never ever ever once said that I hope the UPC falls apart around the ears of its supporters. I never have and I never will...because that is not what I believe in my heart of hearts.
I am actually surprised that you have viewed my comments as being negative...on the other hand if you believe that challenging tradition, sacred cows, and religious culture wearing the clothes of salvific doctrine is being negative, then maybe I can see it.
rrford
03-14-2007, 11:48 PM
I don't think so. It is not a negative thing when you are calling for an organization to define themselves as I have done...not that it matters to even an ant standing on a hill of beans.
What would you have me do, sing its praises, and do a rain dance proclaiming all is well with a well oiled, well functioning, relevant and UNITED group of leaders?
What is it that paves a road to the hot place...something about good intentions?
I never ever ever once said that I hope the UPC falls apart around the ears of its supporters. I never have and I never will...because that is not what I believe in my heart of hearts.
I am actually surprised that you have viewed my comments as being negative...on the other hand if you believe that challenging tradition, sacred cows, and religious culture wearing the clothes of salvific doctrine is being negative, then maybe I can see it.
Sorry Bro. I used the wrong smiley. If you would have responded right away I think you would have seen I meant it in the humorous vein we were in.
Carpenter
03-14-2007, 11:52 PM
Sorry Bro. I used the wrong smiley. If you would have responded right away I think you would have seen I meant it in the humorous vein we were in.
Well, you raise a good point. It is not my intention to simply be negative while providing no solutions (like those liberal democrats)...anyone can do that.
I just don't believe that the majority of saints would even notice a split and most in my opinion wouldn't feel even a ripple of any waves made at GC.
rrford
03-14-2007, 11:53 PM
Well, you raise a good point. It is not my intention to simply be negative while providing no solutions (like those liberal democrats)...anyone can do that.
I just don't believe that the majority of saints would even notice a split and most in my opinion wouldn't feel even a ripple of any waves made at GC.
Perhaps not right away. But eventually it would affect the local assembly to a great degree. For a myriad of reasons. Such splits cause the pasotr to choose sides. He then promotes the party line of his side, and when he does the church is affected.
Carpenter
03-14-2007, 11:57 PM
Perhaps not right away. But eventually it would affect the local assembly to a great degree. For a myriad of reasons. Such splits cause the pasotr to choose sides. He then promotes the party line of his side, and when he does the church is affected.
Well, I am not sure that is the case simply because most pastors are not crusaders (some most definitely are and in my estimation are names who pastor large churches) they pretty much stick with their circle of friends, and have too much to worry about pastoring.
I agree though, the effects won't be felt right away, but definitely down the line and moreso in the larger churches.
Brother Price
03-15-2007, 04:08 AM
Could he be sticking his finger in the air to see which way the wind is blowing?
Could you be trying to start an argument with me? All of a sudden, I cannot speak on an issue without someone trying to bring past mistakes up. Too bad, cause I am not leaving. I am here, right now, and not moving. So, deal with it, and get out of my way.
rrford
03-15-2007, 06:30 AM
Could you be trying to start an argument with me? All of a sudden, I cannot speak on an issue without someone trying to bring past mistakes up. Too bad, cause I am not leaving. I am here, right now, and not moving. So, deal with it, and get out of my way.
I think TV is willing to get out of your way. Just needs to know which way you are going. :slaphappy
All in fun, Bro. All in fun. :tiphat
There will be no splitsville, and if there is, it is because someone was looking for a way out and plans to use TV as an excuse. That is as plain and simple as one can get.
Brother Price,
That's not really as "plain and simple" as it gets. That's a very broad and opinionated statement, is all.
Have you spoken to EVERY minister out there who might be considering pulling out of the UPC? If you have, you'd not make the comment above. I KNOW men who are personally fighting with their last breath to stay in the UPC DESPITE decisions (TV advertising, for example) that go against what they've stood for for years! It blows my mind that you would accuse certain men of trying to justify their leaving, when all they're fighting for is what they believe or don't believe is good for the future of the only organization they've known their whole life.
The Antagonist
03-15-2007, 07:42 AM
Perhaps not right away. But eventually it would affect the local assembly to a great degree. For a myriad of reasons. Such splits cause the pasotr to choose sides. He then promotes the party line of his side, and when he does the church is affected.
This is an interesting statement.
The organization commands uniformity? No room for varying opinions to be promoted at home church? That sounds very rigid and intolerant at first glance. Is that what you meant? If so, would you not agree that that intolerance promotes hipocricy in as much as the Pastor cannot promote what he inwardly truly belives?
Clarification needed.
rrford
03-15-2007, 07:50 AM
This is an interesting statement.
The organization commands uniformity? No room for varying opinions to be promoted at home church? That sounds very rigid and intolerant at first glance. Is that what you meant? If so, would you not agree that that intolerance promotes hipocricy in as much as the Pastor cannot promote what he inwardly truly belives?
Clarification needed.
That is not at all what I meant. I am merely stating that usually the natural progression is that a man chooses sides and then promotes what his side believes. Usually, the team doesn't have to require him to do so. He does so just because he is part of the team.
That is not at all what I meant. I am merely stating that usually the natural progression is that a man chooses sides and then promotes what his side believes. Usually, the team doesn't have to require him to do so. He does so just because he is part of the team.
Yet, prior to 1992, there seemed to be an attitude of tolerance, at least as it pertained to PAJC vs. PCI.
Prior to '92 ... this Articles statement had some weight ...
"We shall endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit until we all come into the unity of the faith, at the same time admonishing all brethren that they should not contend for their different views to the disunity of the body."
Now it's being used by men like Bernard, ironically, to mend a fractured fellowship today.
The affirmation statement has made folks choose sides on various issues and they are now entrenched against one another.
What a monumental mistake ...
I also falter a system that is in place that allows for tyranny of the majority and promotes factionalism.
JMO
Coonskinner
03-15-2007, 08:13 AM
Tyranny of the majority...expound on that one, please.
Interesting phrase.
The Antagonist
03-15-2007, 08:18 AM
Tyranny of the majority...expound on that one, please.
Interesting phrase.
LOL...
He has already confessed to passion of the moment when asked about the "UC clowns" statement. :grampa This is probably another example of momentary passion. Maybe the rest of us should be...er...tolerant. :friend
The Antagonist
03-15-2007, 08:21 AM
That is not at all what I meant. I am merely stating that usually the natural progression is that a man chooses sides and then promotes what his side believes. Usually, the team doesn't have to require him to do so. He does so just because he is part of the team.
This statement confuses me even further, but I'll not pursue it further. Your statement that it is not what you meant is accepted at face value.
Thank you.
Coonskinner
03-15-2007, 08:21 AM
Yet, prior to 1992, there seemed to be an attitude of tolerance, at least as it pertained to PAJC vs. PCI.
Prior to '92 ... this Articles statement had some weight ...
"We shall endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit until we all come into the unity of the faith, at the same time admonishing all brethren that they should not contend for their different views to the disunity of the body."
Now it's being used by men like Bernard, ironically, to mend a fractured fellowship today.
The affirmation statement has made folks choose sides on various issues and they are now entrenched against one another.
What a monumental mistake ...
I also falter a system that is in place that allows for tyranny of the majority and promotes factionalism.
JMO
Pretty regularly.
Brett Prince
03-15-2007, 08:23 AM
If rrford confuses you, you should simply read again. The guy is one of the minds around, and his statements usually make more and more sense as the day goes on.
In the Federalist Papers, men like Madison and Hamilton explored the virtues of a federalist republic and highlighted the dangers of true democracy.
In discussing the concept of the tyranny of the majority, Madison commenced the statement of his theory in Federalist 51 with an acknowledgment that the "have nots" in any society are extremely likely to attack the "haves," for like Hamilton the Virginian believed class struggle to be inseparable from politics.
"It is of great importance in a republic not only to guard against the oppression of its rulers," Madison writes, "but to guard one part of the society against the injustice of the other. Different interests necessarily exist in different classes of citizens. If a majority be united by a common interest the rights of the minority will be insecure."
In a nutshell, this is what I see. As the present system stands, within the fellowship, a simple majority rules -- leaving few protections, checks and balances, for those with a minority view on any side. It demands uniformity yet is inequitable in its enforcement and relentless in policing compliance.
JMO, CS.
The Antagonist
03-15-2007, 08:26 AM
If rrford confuses you, you should simply read again. The guy is one of the minds around, and his statements usually make more and more sense as the day goes on.
Thank you for that glowing endorsement. I will accept THAT at face value for the time being too.
Since you understand that statement so well, I would humbly ask you to attempt to explain how you understand it.
Thank you in advance.
Brett Prince
03-15-2007, 08:26 AM
I haven't posted much lately...to the point some might not even remember me :D , but I think this whole thread is just a waste of time and energy.
If the UPC decides against TV, I'll rejoice, but only for a season--because it is coming, no matter what. Even if we don't vote it in, technology is going to get us there in any event.
If the UPC decides FOR tv--I'm sticking. I'm not leaving over it. I'll live with it. We are greater than the sum of our parts, but we must have something that sticks us all together to allow us to meet our fullest potential. Friend, if you baptize in Jesus Name, and speak with tongues, I want to endeavor to have what unity I possibly can with you. This experience is too precious to divide it.
I recall that the wisest man who had lived in OT times once said that we should not divide the baby. I think that wisdom should still apply today.
Brett Prince
03-15-2007, 08:27 AM
Thank you for that glowing endorsement. I will accept THAT at face value for the time being too.
Since you understand that statement so well, I would humbly ask you to attempt to explain how you understand it.
Thank you in advance.
I would humbly ask you, then, what part of his statement was so hard to understand? It seemed pretty straight forward to me.
Coonskinner
03-15-2007, 08:28 AM
In the Federalist Papers, men like Madison and Hamilton explored the virtues of a federalist republic and highlighted the dangers of true democracy.
In discussing the concept of the tyranny of the majority, Madison commenced the statement of his theory in Federalist 51 with an acknowledgment that the "have nots" in any society are extremely likely to attack the "haves," for like Hamilton the Virginian believed class struggle to be inseparable from politics.
"It is of great importance in a republic not only to guard against the oppression of its rulers," Madison writes, "but to guard one part of the society against the injustice of the other. Different interests necessarily exist in different classes of citizens. If a majority be united by a common interest the rights of the minority will be insecure."
In a nutshell, this is what I see. As the present system stands, within the fellowship, a simple majority rules -- leaving few protections, checks and balances, for those with a minority view on any side. It demands uniformity yet is inequitable in its enforcement and relentless in policing compliance.
JMO, CS.
Relentless in policing compliance?
Daniel, thanks to distrrict officials who could care less, the AS is a joke.
Guys sign them every year who don't believ half the AoF, and nobody polices or enforces anything.
Don't make me laugh.:)
That is a strawman.
Brett Prince
03-15-2007, 08:31 AM
Relentless in policing compliance?
Daniel, thanks to distrrict officials who could care less, the AS is a joke.
Guys sign them every year who don't believ half the AoF, and nobody polices or enforces anything.
Don't make me laugh.:)
That is a strawman.
I don't think the AS is a joke to those of us who take it seriously. But, I must admit that it has not been strongly enforced, and has not caused much of a wake in the last number of years. I would have to stand neutral as to the "strawman" claim. I think in some districts CS would be right, and in others, Dan would be. Perception is reality, and perception changes when one travels from one neck of the woods to the next.
Relentless in policing compliance?
Daniel, thanks to distrrict officials who could care less, the AS is a joke.
Guys sign them every year who don't believ half the AoF, and nobody polices or enforces anything.
Don't make me laugh.:)
That is a strawman.
Please elaborate on the strawman ... you simply asked me my opinions on what I meant by tyranny of of the majority .... did you think I was blasting anyone group? You may not think there are pressures for compliance ....but there is a powerful group dynamic that supercedes what one DS does or doesn't do ...
Tyranny of the majority can effect any faction ... conservative, moderate, liberal ... if it goes unchecked ... all sides do not want to be carried by the tide and as the current system stands either you get with the program or you leave ... diversity is not tolerated. JMO
The Antagonist
03-15-2007, 08:40 AM
I would humbly ask you, then, what part of his statement was so hard to understand? It seemed pretty straight forward to me.
I thought that I registered my lack of comprehension. Maybe the statement is too lofty for the likes of such as I to attain to, but just bear with me. I too, given enough time, come to recognize a great mind when manifested enough.
Now here are the two parts that left me...breathless:
First this part:
But eventually it would affect the local assembly to a great degree. For a myriad of reasons. Such splits cause the pasotr to choose sides. He then promotes the party line of his side, and when he does the church is affected.
And then this part:
I am merely stating that usually the natural progression is that a man chooses sides and then promotes what his side believes. Usually, the team doesn't have to require him to do so. He does so just because he is part of the team.
Thank you for your help.
Felicity
03-15-2007, 08:42 AM
I've been reading through this thread ........ at page 12 now and it's been interesting discussion with some great points being made.
I was thinking ... "Well ..... you know the answer is prayer. But then I'm thinking that's probably way too simplistic. :) And the fact is all these men can and do of course pray and seek God (hopefully) but come up with different opinions on what God's will is. :)
So I guess prayer isn't the answer always. ;) :)
In the Federalist Papers, men like Madison and Hamilton explored the virtues of a federalist republic and highlighted the dangers of true democracy.
In discussing the concept of the tyranny of the majority, Madison commenced the statement of his theory in Federalist 51 with an acknowledgment that the "have nots" in any society are extremely likely to attack the "haves," for like Hamilton the Virginian believed class struggle to be inseparable from politics.
"It is of great importance in a republic not only to guard against the oppression of its rulers," Madison writes, "but to guard one part of the society against the injustice of the other. Different interests necessarily exist in different classes of citizens. If a majority be united by a common interest the rights of the minority will be insecure."
In a nutshell, this is what I see. As the present system stands, within the fellowship, a simple majority rules -- leaving few protections, checks and balances, for those with a minority view on any side. It demands uniformity yet is inequitable in its enforcement and relentless in policing compliance.
JMO, CS.
Relentless in policing compliance?
Daniel, thanks to distrrict officials who could care less, the AS is a joke.
Guys sign them every year who don't believ half the AoF, and nobody polices or enforces anything.
Don't make me laugh.:)
That is a strawman.
is it possible to agree with both of these views?
Daniel, this is one of your most thought full posts. the enforment aspect isnt necessarily there but clearly the UPCI has reached a point where factions are contending for that simple majority for the purpose of forcing the entire organization to be clones of one another. BOTH sides are engaged in this conflict and while Coonskinner is right about enforcement at the district level on the Infernal Document, Daniel has hit the nail on the head on what the problem is within membership.
Very thoughtful Daniel.
Felicity
03-15-2007, 08:47 AM
Relentless in policing compliance?
Daniel, thanks to distrrict officials who could care less, the AS is a joke.
Guys sign them every year who don't believ half the AoF, and nobody polices or enforces anything.
Don't make me laugh.:)
That is a strawman.Aha! Nail on the head!
is it possible to agree with both of these views?
Daniel, this is one of your most thought full posts. the enforment aspect isnt necessarily there but clearly the UPCI has reached a point where factions are contending for that simple majority for the purpose of forcing the entire organization to be clones of one another. BOTH sides are engaged in this conflict and while Coonskinner is right about enforcement at the district level on the Infernal Document, Daniel has hit the nail on the head on what the problem is within membership.
Very thoughtful Daniel.
The compliance Ferd comes through a group dynamic .... however this is why I am a strong advocate of examining the structure top to bottom .... there must be some checks and balances built in to balance the tyranny of the majority.
Or else there will be a split ... however, it may be to late to remedy.
The Antagonist
03-15-2007, 08:59 AM
I've been reading through this thread ........ at page 12 now and it's been interesting discussion with some great points being made.
I was thinking ... "Well ..... you know the answer is prayer. But then I'm thinking that's probably way too simplistic. :) And the fact is all these men can and do of course pray and seek God (hopefully) but come up with different opinions on what God's will is. :)
So I guess prayer isn't the answer always. ;) :)
Aahh, yes!
I perceive the lady has depth of perception.
The compliance Ferd comes through a group dynamic .... however this is why I am a strong advocate of examining the structure top to bottom .... there must be some checks and balances built in to balance the tyranny of the majority.
Or else there will be a split ... however, it may be to late to remedy.
While, I had not looked at it as "Tyranny of hte majority" per sey, I have been thinking about some of the old sermons ive heard from GC and some of the old guys that have passed.
Papa George preached a sermon in the 70's "He has magnified his Word above His Name" that was a masterpiece. Should be required listening for every preacher in the movement once a year. I suspect there are dozens more just like it from many other great yet gone men.
Daniel, my point here is the CHECK has to be revered men of God that preach at GC who have annointing and can get all sides to put God above idology.
I dont know that we have those kind of men preaching our conferences. I wonder if we have come to the place where the different sides wont even share pew space with each other to hear these kinds of messages together.
this in my honest opinion, is the check and balance. I just dont know if we have this any longer.
rrford
03-15-2007, 09:32 AM
I thought that I registered my lack of comprehension. Maybe the statement is too lofty for the likes of such as I to attain to, but just bear with me. I too, given enough time, come to recognize a great mind when manifested enough.
Now here are the two parts that left me...breathless:
First this part:
And then this part:
Thank you for your help.
Perhaps it would be easier for me to clarify if you can explain exactly what you find problematic with my statements.
Splits cause one to take sides. Over time one identities more with their side. Such identification bleeds through to the congregation. Ergo, the congregation is affected by the split.
While, I had not looked at it as "Tyranny of hte majority" per sey, I have been thinking about some of the old sermons ive heard from GC and some of the old guys that have passed.
Papa George preached a sermon in the 70's "He has magnified his Word above His Name" that was a masterpiece. Should be required listening for every preacher in the movement once a year. I suspect there are dozens more just like it from many other great yet gone men.
Daniel, my point here is the CHECK has to be revered men of God that preach at GC who have annointing and can get all sides to put God above idology.
I dont know that we have those kind of men preaching our conferences. I wonder if we have come to the place where the different sides wont even share pew space with each other to hear these kinds of messages together.
this in my honest opinion, is the check and balance. I just dont know if we have this any longer.
Of course the men involved on all sides are revered and anointed men of God ... this is the Church, Ferd. In the epistles we see men of God taking different roads and opinions on how to work ....
Not withstanding, then, if we are going to make this a debate about who is more spiritual and who is more carnal ... the bombs will continue to fly.
If they are to make this an org that has unity then the political structure should also be a consideration.
The Antagonist
03-15-2007, 10:19 AM
Perhaps it would be easier for me to clarify if you can explain exactly what you find problematic with my statements.
Splits cause one to take sides. Over time one identities more with their side. Such identification bleeds through to the congregation. Ergo, the congregation is affected by the split.
I suppose it is a matter of perspective. Certainly not to be contentious for contention's sake.
I have always labored under the strong opinion that the opposite was the rule. Taking sides causes splits.
Within the ever evolving group spiritual thought migrations, an organization that attempts to control those thoughts by certain restraints will either produce the split or a certain element of hipocricy. If the man in the pulpit is not true to his own beliefs, he becomes a hipocrite in the name of the "team." The church is affected subliminally. In the case of the split, where the man stays true to his evolving opinions, the church is also affected, either to the good or worse. To the good if he is led of the Holy Ghost, the the worse if he is not.
However, I will defer to the Prince's "great mind" endorsement. At least I'm humble though maybe lacking one of the great minds of the Western World. :tiphat
tbpew
03-15-2007, 10:23 AM
our thoughtful 'antagonist' wrote:
Within the ever evolving group spiritual thought migrations, an organization that attempts to control those thoughts by certain restraints will either produce the split or a certain element of hipocricy. If the man in the pulpit is not true to his own beliefs, he becomes a hipocrite in the name of the "team." The church is affected subliminally. In the case of the split, where the man stays true to his evolving opinions, the church is also affected, either to the good or worse. To the good if he is led of the Holy Ghost, the the worse if he is not.
that's a very worthwhile read. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion!
The Antagonist
03-15-2007, 10:37 AM
our thoughtful 'antagonist' wrote:
that's a very worthwhile read. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion!
Thanks. I try.
I just need to pay attention to my spelling a little more. I really can spell much better.
btw, a split is not always bad. When the bed becomes too short for the man, it is time for him to move. This happens by growth.
Kutless
03-15-2007, 10:50 AM
Thanks. I try.
I just need to pay attention to my spelling a little more. I really can spell much better.
btw, a split is not always bad. When the bed becomes too short for the man, it is time for him to move. This happens by growth.Would you speculate which "man" has done the outgrowing? m Or was this just a general statement?
rrford
03-15-2007, 11:08 AM
I suppose it is a matter of perspective. Certainly not to be contentious for contention's sake.
I have always labored under the strong opinion that the opposite was the rule. Taking sides causes splits.
Within the ever evolving group spiritual thought migrations, an organization that attempts to control those thoughts by certain restraints will either produce the split or a certain element of hipocricy. If the man in the pulpit is not true to his own beliefs, he becomes a hipocrite in the name of the "team." The church is affected subliminally. In the case of the split, where the man stays true to his evolving opinions, the church is also affected, either to the good or worse. To the good if he is led of the Holy Ghost, the the worse if he is not.
However, I will defer to the Prince's "great mind" endorsement. At least I'm humble though maybe lacking one of the great minds of the Western World. :tiphat
Ahh, I see what you are saying. I was posting from the foregone conclusion that taking sides and the split had already occured. Two dynamics come into play: 1) Those who have taken sides already will polarize moreso to their side; and, 2) Those who have not taken sides will probably feel the necessity to do so.
I do agree that such splits are the most problematic for men who struggle with their own beliefs and identity.
It also seems to me that your mind is operating on all cylinders. I appreciate your input and perspective.
Keep this up RR ... and you'll be in the top 10
rrford
03-15-2007, 11:12 AM
Keep this up RR ... and you'll be in the top 10
Not gonna happen. As I stated previously I have made a commitment to not do so. In fact, after today you may not hear from me for 3 or 4 days. :tiphat
Sister Alvear
03-15-2007, 11:26 AM
When the radio was invented did churches split over it?
When the radio was invented did churches split over it?
no ... of course not ... but orgs have split over ....
HOLINESS VS. EVANGELISM
SPIRITUALITY VS. CARNALITY
BoredOutOfMyMind
03-15-2007, 11:28 AM
When the radio was invented did churches split over it?
No, but they forbid churches for advertising on Rock Stations as late as the 80's.
Even for free. :grampa
No, but they forbid churches for advertising on Rock Stations as late as the 80's.
Even for free. :grampa
Was that in the manual ... BOOM???
Sister Alvear
03-15-2007, 11:55 AM
Glad my manual is the Bible...
BoredOutOfMyMind
03-15-2007, 11:58 AM
Was that in the manual ... BOOM???
No but it was the direction of the board over Harvestime at that time.
This was a major Station with 50000 watts.
The Antagonist
03-15-2007, 03:32 PM
Would you speculate which "man" has done the outgrowing? m Or was this just a general statement?
It was not a general statement at all. It is scriptural. Here is the reference:
Isa 28:20 For the bed is shorter than that [a man] can stretch himself [on it]: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself [in it].
This often happens as a man matures but his fellowship does not. If the man continues to mature and his fellowship stagnates in growth, the bed becomes too short for the man and the covering becomes to narrow for him to wrap himself in it.
There are spiritual giants in the land that cannot submit to dictates of Pygmy fellowships and remain in fellowship with his God. Though the man has outgrown the fellowship, he will forever be a friend, and active helper and supporter of that fellowship as far as he is allowed to participate within that fellowship. The wise among them will recognize the man for his maturity nurtured and fostered in love to the whole world, to the fellowship, and each individual member as well. Such a man is not on an ego trip nor does he willingly accept the accolades of his admirers as anything meaningful. He would far rather be hidden.
Makes sense? I hope I answered correctly.
Praxeas
03-15-2007, 03:37 PM
Man...you'd think a ROCK station would be the best place...no not because of the word ROCK....why do we think the only place to preach the truth is in a place where everyone has already heard it?
That's what I don't get about the TV thing...we could possibly read millions and millions....and why not? Because TV bad.
Man...you'd think a ROCK station would be the best place...no not because of the word ROCK....why do we think the only place to preach the truth is in a place where everyone has already heard it?
That's what I don't get about the TV thing...we could possibly read millions and millions....and why not? Because TV bad.
The thing about advertising is that people automatically assume if you advertise on a radio station, you support all of the programming on that station. I guess that is why they were against any advertising on a rock music station. Although, many that would be listening to that station are the very people they'd want to reach.
Same with an advertisement for a church. What a shame if the invitation to visit a church/advertisement for a church were given during one of the "trash" programs that was shown on TV. They just MIGHT have a "sinner" who was viewing the "trash" program to show up...
I'm getting out of this thread.. I don't need to be involved here.... :aaa
Brett Prince
03-15-2007, 04:17 PM
I thought that I registered my lack of comprehension. Maybe the statement is too lofty for the likes of such as I to attain to, but just bear with me. I too, given enough time, come to recognize a great mind when manifested enough.
Now here are the two parts that left me...breathless:
First this part:
And then this part:
Thank you for your help.
I see. I guess I just read as I would most political situations. People choose sides. Then they do whatever it takes to promote their side, and feel that they have "won." Innocent people wind up getting hurt, because neither side is interested in getting a win-win. Instead, they want a us-win-them-lose sort of proposition. It happens the same way in the church. Pastors do the same thing when they decide I am "for," or "against," and they start preaching it, talking it, leading it, and the folks in their church are often harmed in the process. Some don't agree. Of those, some stand against and that is harmful. Some don't agree, but keep their mouths shut and their feelings to themselves, but never understand why they no longer able to fellowship with folks they have known and loved for years--or why they don't see Bro. and Sis. So-and-So at Camp Meeting. They wonder why the org they have loved and been a part of for years is splitting, or fighting at least.
Praxeas
03-15-2007, 04:33 PM
The thing about advertising is that people automatically assume if you advertise on a radio station, you support all of the programming on that station. I guess that is why they were against any advertising on a rock music station. Although, many that would be listening to that station are the very people they'd want to reach.
Same with an advertisement for a church. What a shame if the invitation to visit a church/advertisement for a church were given during one of the "trash" programs that was shown on TV. They just MIGHT have a "sinner" who was viewing the "trash" program to show up...
I'm getting out of this thread.. I don't need to be involved here.... :aaa
Did they oppose it when we advertised in NewsWeek or whatever it was?
It seems kinda ridiculous that the last place we would want to reach the lost would be on TV...why good does it do to preach to the choir?
BoredOutOfMyMind
03-15-2007, 04:44 PM
Man...you'd think a ROCK station would be the best place...no not because of the word ROCK....why do we think the only place to preach the truth is in a place where everyone has already heard it?
That's what I don't get about the TV thing...we could possibly read millions and millions....and why not? Because TV bad.
This was back when there were fewer automated stations. No Internet, No iPod, no XP.
This particular station later changed to Talk Format and was one of the first to do so.
I am not sure if Harvestime is the best argument for now, but then it was the best preaching heard.
Same arguments used then are being used pro and con for Advertising on TV.
BoredOutOfMyMind
03-15-2007, 04:48 PM
Did they oppose it when we advertised in NewsWeek or whatever it was?
It seems kinda ridiculous that the last place we would want to reach the lost would be on TV...why good does it do to preach to the choir?
I think the overall cost of the HMD adverts for Pentecost Sunday in USA Today/Time and a Canadian magazine became too great. It seemed to move to a local advertising where the local church sent out flyers. I have not seen it even promoted much at all the last few years.
I do not see the Ready To Be Free even with the kids bears promoted either. This was a Bible Study on a CD you could give a friend.
What was the objective topic started by Cotton Mather here again?
:aaa
Praxeas
03-15-2007, 05:42 PM
This was back when there were fewer automated stations. No Internet, No iPod, no XP.
This particular station later changed to Talk Format and was one of the first to do so.
I am not sure if Harvestime is the best argument for now, but then it was the best preaching heard.
Same arguments used then are being used pro and con for Advertising on TV.
Harvestime could be a greater "force" for good. The problems with the UPCI is they are slow to change. Look how long the Harald was outdated. Same with our tracts. It's not about money....if we stopped fighting and unify in faith God will take care of that.
Praxeas
03-15-2007, 05:47 PM
I think the overall cost of the HMD adverts for Pentecost Sunday in USA Today/Time and a Canadian magazine became too great. It seemed to move to a local advertising where the local church sent out flyers. I have not seen it even promoted much at all the last few years.
I do not see the Ready To Be Free even with the kids bears promoted either. This was a Bible Study on a CD you could give a friend.
What was the objective topic started by Cotton Mather here again?
:aaa
Ready To Be Free is dead dead dead. That would have been another GREAT tool. They have not made one change to the website in years. I emailed them and got no reply. I'd like to see "Ready To Be Free" TV...the content can be changed weekly or monthly. Every church can maybe subscribe to it to brand it and put it on their own website. Have more tracts and do more city by city crusades.
The CD idea was ok, but I think an active content website is better and tracks is cheaper. I was seriously disappointed in how it ended up.
We want to do a lot more here through the website. We figure we can brand our domain name on everything from tracts to business cards to fliers. People can go there to learn more of the truth and see testimonies. Our biggest obstacle is pointing people to it.
Nahum
03-15-2007, 05:51 PM
Ready To Be Free is dead dead dead. That would have been another GREAT tool. They have not made one change to the website in years. I emailed them and got no reply. I'd like to see "Ready To Be Free" TV...the content can be changed weekly or monthly. Every church can maybe subscribe to it to brand it and put it on their own website. Have more tracts and do more city by city crusades.
The CD idea was ok, but I think an active content website is better and tracks is cheaper. I was seriously disappointed in how it ended up.
We want to do a lot more here through the website. We figure we can brand our domain name on everything from tracts to business cards to fliers. People can go there to learn more of the truth and see testimonies. Our biggest obstacle is pointing people to it.
Hey Prax,
The "ready to be free" program died when Brother Doug Joseph left headquarters. That program was brilliantly done. Too bad they didn't keep it up.
Praxeas
03-15-2007, 06:08 PM
Hey Prax,
The "ready to be free" program died when Brother Doug Joseph left headquarters. That program was brilliantly done. Too bad they didn't keep it up.
I'd like to see someone else take it over maybe...or even become a private endeaver...is he still UPC? I noticed the website is still under HMD...someone must be paying for the bandwidth involved....
Brett Prince
03-15-2007, 07:07 PM
I thought that I registered my lack of comprehension. Maybe the statement is too lofty for the likes of such as I to attain to, but just bear with me. I too, given enough time, come to recognize a great mind when manifested enough.
Now here are the two parts that left me...breathless:
First this part:
And then this part:
Thank you for your help.
Hey, friend, I am not trying to stir up any trouble here between. Hope I'm not coming across that way. If you'll look back, I didn't even quote anybody when I made my statement. I was reading, and remembered someone, wasn't even sure who, had seemed to question what rrford meant and whether he made any sense. I just simply popped in a statement that I thought he did, and that he usually does. Probably poor wording. That comes from working 14 hour days, and most of it out in the sun knocking doors.
The Antagonist
03-15-2007, 07:22 PM
Hey, friend, I am not trying to stir up any trouble here between. Hope I'm not coming across that way. If you'll look back, I didn't even quote anybody when I made my statement. I was reading, and remembered someone, wasn't even sure who, had seemed to question what rrford meant and whether he made any sense. I just simply popped in a statement that I thought he did, and that he usually does. Probably poor wording. That comes from working 14 hour days, and most of it out in the sun knocking doors.
No trouble as far as I am concerned. It was my statement that you had responded to whether you remember it or not, stating that rrford was one of the great minds here. That certainly got my attention and shall follow that great mind to length with interest. I admire great minds. I wish that I had one.
I understand how poor wording can come from 14 hours a day in the sun knocking doors. No harm done. I pray that things will get easier for you. You are obviously under great stress. I will carry your burden in prayer - this night.
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