Sad "Abortion led to Suicide" Story

[Hoovie]

Artist hanged herself after aborting her twins Last Updated: 2:03am GMT 22/02/2008

An artist killed herself after aborting her twins when she was eight weeks pregnant, leaving a note saying: "I should never have had an abortion. I see now I would have been a good mum."

Emma Beck was found hanging at her home in Helston, Cornwall, on Feb 1 2007. She was declared dead early the following day - her 31st birthday.

Her suicide note read: "I told everyone I didn't want to do it, even at the hospital. I was frightened, now it is too late. I died when my babies died. I want to be with my babies: they need me, no-one else does."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/22/nartist122.xml

[Mrs. LPW]

Terribly sad

[MawMaw]

So heartbreaking. :(

[Hoovie]

Any "man" that puts pressure on a woman to abort should be casterated.

[nahkoe]

Any "man" that puts pressure on a woman to abort should be casterated.

Unfortunately, it's not quite that simple.

Would be really nice if the whole abortion thing was nice and simple though. It's heartbreaking on every side.

[Mrs. LPW]

What about the woman who pressure other woman? I've met a few of those.
I think castration is a good punishment for a guilty man for many things... such as child molestation and adultery! :)

[nahkoe]

Oh this story is so, so sad. Counseling should be so much more readily available, *good* counseling.

:angelsad

[Hoovie]

What about the woman who pressure other woman? I've met a few of those.
I think castration is a good punishment for a guilty man for many things... such as child molestation and adultery! :)

child molestation - yes.

Not for adultery.

Adultery involves 2 consenting adults

[Mrs. LPW]

child molestation - yes.

Not for adultery.

Adultery involves 2 consenting adults


And if one of them ever was my husband he'd be facing the "castrating pentalty" (course, that's in my world, where that would be legal punishment you see)

[Hoovie]

And if one of them ever was my husband he'd be facing the "castrating pentalty" (course, that's in my world, where that would be legal punishment you see)

Yes, Ms Bobbit.

I see your point...


:bolt

[Mrs. LPW]

Yes, Ms Bobbit.

I see your point...


:bolt

:) He's got no worries as long as he's faithful! Actually he hears my "if you ever did that I'd..." speech every time we hear of someone cheating! So he's been well warned!

I do find this abortion article so incredibly sad. I know someone personally who had an abortion, she has never been the same since.

[Pressing-On]

Artist hanged herself after aborting her twins Last Updated: 2:03am GMT 22/02/2008

An artist killed herself after aborting her twins when she was eight weeks pregnant, leaving a note saying: "I should never have had an abortion. I see now I would have been a good mum."

Emma Beck was found hanging at her home in Helston, Cornwall, on Feb 1 2007. She was declared dead early the following day - her 31st birthday.

Her suicide note read: "I told everyone I didn't want to do it, even at the hospital. I was frightened, now it is too late. I died when my babies died. I want to be with my babies: they need me, no-one else does."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/22/nartist122.xml
So sad. I knew a girl that had four abortions before she started living for God. She said what she hated the most was passing by the Christians with signs making her feel so horrible about herself on her way inside the abortion clinic. She told me that she would spit at them.

I don't believe in picketing!

[Hoovie]

So sad. I knew a girl that had four abortions before she started living for God. She said what she hated the most was passing by the Christians with signs making her feel so horrible about herself on her way inside the abortion clinic. She told me that she would spit at them.

I don't believe in picketing!

Uhhh... there are MANY success stories too. I guess I have mixed feelings.

[Pressing-On]

Uhhh... there are MANY success stories too. I guess I have mixed feelings.
I suppose so. It always seemed to hateful to me. I know someone that had an abortion and their way of dealing with it is to picket. I would just feel like I was standing in judgment.

[ReformedDave]

So sad. I knew a girl that had four abortions before she started living for God. She said what she hated the most was passing by the Christians with signs making her feel so horrible about herself on her way inside the abortion clinic. She told me that she would spit at them.

I don't believe in picketing!

Our church regularly picketed an abortion mill for several years....till it closed. While we were never 'in your face' we did get the message out and several didn't murder their child after talking with us and some are in our church today.

BTW, your friend should feel horrible about doing what she did. THE problem is that most don't. It's just a 'product' of conception.

[ReformedDave]

I suppose so. It always seemed to hateful to me. I know someone that had an abortion and their way of dealing with it is to picket. I would just feel like I was standing in judgment.

What if they were killing 2 year olds? Would that make a difference?

[Pressing-On]

Our church regularly picketed an abortion mill for several years....till it closed. While we were never 'in your face' we did get the message out and several didn't murder their child after talking with us and some are in our church today.

BTW, your friend should feel horrible about doing what she did. THE problem is that most don't. It's just a 'product' of conception.

RD,
Did you want my friend to carry her guilt after she repented? This issue will always be in her mind for the rest of her life. Why say, you hope she feels horrible after repentance? I'm sure you don't mean that.

[Pressing-On]

What if they were killing 2 year olds? Would that make a difference?
Well, RD, that is a rather ridiculous question to ask, so I'll let you answer it for us. Would that be fair to you?

[ReformedDave]

RD,
Did you want my friend to carry her guilt after she repented? This issue will always be in her mind for the rest of her life. Why say, you hope she feels horrible after repentance? I'm sure you don't mean that.

No not after repentance...but I'm sure that a lifetime of remorse is appropriate.

[ReformedDave]

Well, RD, that is a rather ridiculous question to ask, so I'll let you answer it for us. Would that be fair to you?

You mentioned that picketing seamed hateful. I think that is partially because we do not put a face with the unborn. If we did, like with a 2 year old, it would not seem so hateful. Logically there is no difference.

[pastorswife]

So sad. I knew a girl that had four abortions before she started living for God. She said what she hated the most was passing by the Christians with signs making her feel so horrible about herself on her way inside the abortion clinic. She told me that she would spit at them.

I don't believe in picketing!


Before she started living for God is the key sentence
God forgives and we are forgiven. Our sins are washed away.
Be it abortion or any other sin.

Such were some of you...

[Pressing-On]

No not after repentance...but I'm sure that a lifetime of remorse is appropriate.
I'm sure you would remind her of it, often, if she was a member of your church.

[Pressing-On]

Before she started living for God is the key sentence
God forgives and we are forgiven. Our sins are washed away.
Be it abortion or any other sin.

Such were some of you...

Amen!

[ReformedDave]

I'm sure you would remind her of it, often, if she was a member of your church.

Not at all. But I'm sure David was reminded of his murdering ways every time he thought of his dead son......I'm sure Paul was tormented about his time of killing Christians......

[Pressing-On]

Not at all. But I'm sure David was reminded of his murdering ways every time he thought of his dead son......I'm sure Paul was tormented about his time of killing Christians......

I'm sure you are correct. I'm sorry for my earlier comment.

[ReformedDave]

I'm sure you are correct. I'm sorry for my earlier comment.

No problem. I would never bring it up to a person for use as some kind of perverted weapon but I do believe that our past can help us with our future. I have memories that have helped me and at the same time I wish I could eliminate them........but I can't.

[simplyme]

No problem. I would never bring it up to a person for use as some kind of perverted weapon but I do believe that our past can help us with our future. I have memories that have helped me and at the same time I wish I could eliminate them........but I can't.

Some memories are "in your face" like living reminders, everytime I see a drunk or drug addict on a nearby underpass begging for money *no doubt to either drink or drug* I am reminded "..there but for GOD's grace go I" and I cannot really judge them I know what it is like to be in bondage, and now what it is to be FREE INDEED! I pray for them, and thank GOD, that His mercy extends to also liberate them., I can also relate to the girl in this story, I am sad that her life situation led her to choose this way, its an awful burden to live with., she chose not to.
I hope those that pressured her are reminded that they should not have done that and will hopefully not do that to anyone else again.

[nahkoe]

Not at all. But I'm sure David was reminded of his murdering ways every time he thought of his dead son......I'm sure Paul was tormented about his time of killing Christians......

We're promised life abundantly, freedom, a hope and a future. Being tormented is none of those. I would guess that Paul thought often of the GRACE of God towards himself when he was a sinner. I'm sure that grace was the thrust behind his passion to serve God with such fervor. I'm sure David saw also the grace of God when he thought of his dead son.

I'm sure both men had thoughts cross their minds that related to their sins, the sins that were forgiven and washed away. But, I'm also pretty sure (aka no Bible, just experience) both men spent far more time being in awe of the grace and mercy of God. A God who could have destroyed them for what they had done, but instead offered them a hope, a future, His love, forgiveness. And in my case (and Paul's?), the fact that God didn't just accept me when I came to Him, He sought me out, pursued me, picked me up and set me back down facing an entirely different direction.

BTW, your friend should feel horrible about doing what she did. THE problem is that most don't. It's just a 'product' of conception.

No not after repentance...but I'm sure that a lifetime of remorse is appropriate.

Thanks for issuing a sentence God hasn't. I'm sure He appreciates your help. He's never told me I deserve to feel horrible about anything I've done. He's told me I'm forgiven, I'm loved, I'm set free. He hasn't said "Yes, I forgive you now go ruminate on your sins for the rest of your life and make sure you feel the specified level of misery forever because what you did is so bad that I can't quite manage to forgive and wash it all away." He goes out of His way to make sure I don't wallow in that sort of thing. It's not true. I've repented, my sins are gone. They don't exist in the memory of God Almighty. Who are we to keep them in our memory when He won't?

I can't even begin to express how sad these words make me. I know the people who stay away from God because this is the only God they've known. They could be safe in His arms, and instead they're guarded and stay away from Him because they believe He would never accept them, never want them, never long for a relationship with them, never forgive them, never heal them, never set them free, never want anything to do with them. I know how much of a challenge it's been for me to overcome this in my own life.

[chosenbyone]

Nahkoe,

What you've written was the reality for many that sought a harbor of rest and forgiveness in Christ yet were met with judgment, scorn and ridicule in return from those in the pew and pulpit. The church has had a dismal record when it came to understanding those that walked a different journey to the Cross.

The good news was that dialog such as this one could only promote true Christianity. :nod

[ReformedDave]

We're promised life abundantly, freedom, a hope and a future. Being tormented is none of those. I would guess that Paul thought often of the GRACE of God towards himself when he was a sinner. I'm sure that grace was the thrust behind his passion to serve God with such fervor. I'm sure David saw also the grace of God when he thought of his dead son.

I'm sure both men had thoughts cross their minds that related to their sins, the sins that were forgiven and washed away. But, I'm also pretty sure (aka no Bible, just experience) both men spent far more time being in awe of the grace and mercy of God. A God who could have destroyed them for what they had done, but instead offered them a hope, a future, His love, forgiveness. And in my case (and Paul's?), the fact that God didn't just accept me when I came to Him, He sought me out, pursued me, picked me up and set me back down facing an entirely different direction.





Thanks for issuing a sentence God hasn't. I'm sure He appreciates your help. He's never told me I deserve to feel horrible about anything I've done. He's told me I'm forgiven, I'm loved, I'm set free. He hasn't said "Yes, I forgive you now go ruminate on your sins for the rest of your life and make sure you feel the specified level of misery forever because what you did is so bad that I can't quite manage to forgive and wash it all away." He goes out of His way to make sure I don't wallow in that sort of thing. It's not true. I've repented, my sins are gone. They don't exist in the memory of God Almighty. Who are we to keep them in our memory when He won't?

I can't even begin to express how sad these words make me. I know the people who stay away from God because this is the only God they've known. They could be safe in His arms, and instead they're guarded and stay away from Him because they believe He would never accept them, never want them, never long for a relationship with them, never forgive them, never heal them, never set them free, never want anything to do with them. I know how much of a challenge it's been for me to overcome this in my own life.

Where has God ever told us to forget our sins? He chooses to not hold them against us but He made us to remember. No where does He tell us to forget. It helps us to keep from sinning and further it reminds us of the pit in which He pulled us out of. "And such were some of you"....remember?

When I issued my statement on feeling 'horrible' I thought I made it clear that was before salvation at the same time being remorseful for one's sins is appropriate.

While I believe David and Paul understood God's grace they only understood it in light of what necessitated that grace.

That's our problem. We don't understand the sinfulness of sin.

[nahkoe]

Where has God ever told us to forget our sins? He chooses to not hold them against us but He made us to remember. No where does He tell us to forget. It helps us to keep from sinning and further it reminds us of the pit in which He pulled us out of. "And such were some of you"....remember?

When I issued my statement on feeling 'horrible' I thought I made it clear that was before salvation at the same time being remorseful for one's sins is appropriate.

While I believe David and Paul understood God's grace they only understood it in light of what necessitated that grace.

That's our problem. We don't understand the sinfulness of sin.

I feel like I've got a pretty good idea.

As for remembering my sin keeping me from sinning? Oh no, the more I remember it, the more I think on it, the more I repeat it. Remembering God, and what His love is like, keeps me from sinning. Thinking on what He wants for me motivates me to be everything I can be. Realizing what sort of relationship He wants to have with me inspires me to know Him more. Thinking of the things I did does nothing but destroy me. It crushes me. It breaks me. It makes me want to quit, to give up. And it allows those chains to start wrapping themselves around me yet again.

[ReformedDave]

I feel like I've got a pretty good idea.

As for remembering my sin keeping me from sinning? Oh no, the more I remember it, the more I think on it, the more I repeat it. Remembering God, and what His love is like, keeps me from sinning. Thinking on what He wants for me motivates me to be everything I can be. Realizing what sort of relationship He wants to have with me inspires me to know Him more. Thinking of the things I did does nothing but destroy me. It crushes me. It breaks me. It makes me want to quit, to give up. And it allows those chains to start wrapping themselves around me yet again.

Why do you need a Savior?

[nahkoe]

Why do you need a Savior?

Because living outside the will of God will destroy a person.
Because things that seem fine in the moment, leave marks, scars, destruction, leave a person in bondage.
Because a person in bondage can not have an intimate relationship with God.
Because God longs for an intimate relationship with me.
Because I can not be who God created me to be while existing in a pit.
Because I can't get out of that pit by myself.
Because God is perfect, therefore sin can not exist in his presence.
Because my nature is to sin.

And most of all because God wants a relationship with me.
He wants to be with me.
He wants me to know Him.

So He made a way for that to be possible.

[ReformedDave]

Because living outside the will of God will destroy a person.
Because things that seem fine in the moment, leave marks, scars, destruction, leave a person in bondage.
Because a person in bondage can not have an intimate relationship with God.
Because God longs for an intimate relationship with me.
Because I can not be who God created me to be while existing in a pit.
Because I can't get out of that pit by myself.
Because God is perfect, therefore sin can not exist in his presence.
Because my nature is to sin.

And most of all because God wants a relationship with me.
He wants to be with me.
He wants me to know Him.

So He made a way for that to be possible.


First of all, there is nothing in you or me (BC) that is worth anything. He doesn't have any 'need' for us. His chief end is to glorify Himself and we're to do the same. Before we come to Him we hate Him and want nothing to do with Him. We are debased in the worst way and we have nothing to give Him. The ONLY goodness we have is His reflection in us as He transforms us to His likeness.

To suggest that God 'longs' for something denotes His 'lack' which is not what I'm sure you mean.

[nahkoe]

First of all, there is nothing in you or me (BC) that is worth anything. He doesn't have any 'need' for us. His chief end is to glorify Himself and we're to do the same. Before we come to Him we hate Him and want nothing to do with Him. We are debased in the worst way and we have nothing to give Him. The ONLY goodness we have is His reflection in us as He transforms us to His likeness.

To suggest that God 'longs' for something denotes His 'lack' which is not what I'm sure you mean.

Why would God allow Himself to be beaten and killed if He had no desire for a relationship with us? What purpose would there be for His death and resurrection? Why would He care if we went to hell instead of heaven if we have no worth? Or if He has no need for us?

Just to prove He can? I don't think He's quite that egotistical. I also don't believe God Himself would have left heaven, left the glory that is, taken on a human form, grown up, lived, hurt, experienced all that humanity is, and then suffered what He suffered, died, rose again, if there wasn't *something* of great value that He desperately longed for.

God created us with a free will. He can not take our heart without our consent. In that way, yes there is something God lacks. He lacks relationship with each person on earth until each person makes the choice to enter into a relationship with Him.

If there is nothing of worth in us before we come to Christ, why did He die for us while we were yet sinners?

I also disagree with your statement that before we come to Him, we want nothing to do with Him. Before we come to Him, we spend our time looking for what is missing in our lives. We may not be aware it's God, but we're very aware that something is lacking within us. I was pretty happy where I was, but I was still seeking something more.

[ReformedDave]

Why would God allow Himself to be beaten and killed if He had no desire for a relationship with us? What purpose would there be for His death and resurrection? Why would He care if we went to hell instead of heaven if we have no worth? Or if He has no need for us?

Just to prove He can? I don't think He's quite that egotistical. I also don't believe God Himself would have left heaven, left the glory that is, taken on a human form, grown up, lived, hurt, experienced all that humanity is, and then suffered what He suffered, died, rose again, if there wasn't *something* of great value that He desperately longed for.

God created us with a free will. He can not take our heart without our consent. In that way, yes there is something God lacks. He lacks relationship with each person on earth until each person makes the choice to enter into a relationship with Him.

If there is nothing of worth in us before we come to Christ, why did He die for us while we were yet sinners?

Can you prove from Scripture that He 'needs' us? He does everything for His glory. He chose to love us. We did not choose Him. Scripture address the completeness of God and His not lacking anything along with His perfection. Our loving Him adds nothing to His perfection.

Egotistical? He's God. He can, and does, require praise.

[ReformedDave]

I also disagree with your statement that before we come to Him, we want nothing to do with Him. Before we come to Him, we spend our time looking for what is missing in our lives. We may not be aware it's God, but we're very aware that something is lacking within us. I was pretty happy where I was, but I was still seeking something more.

Romans 1 states that ALL men have a knowledge of God and all men reject that knowledge.

[Mrs. LPW]

Here are two songs that mean something to me and my walk with the Lord.

"I'm never gonna look back, I've made up my mind
I've got too much invested
To lose my time
Through the rivers, and over the mountains and plains
I'm never gonna look back till I reach heavens gates."

and

"When I look back, and see,
Where Jesus brought me from
It's a mighty long way, from where I used to be.
For my soul, it was so lost in sin and misery
And I'm singing this song,
'Cause I know where, He brought me from."

I think the two can co-exist.
Remembering the pit we were dug from...

Isaiah 51:1

Psalm 40:2
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.

And
Philippians 3:13
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before

I think there are those who remember where they were brought from is a great strength to them.. and those who are much better served not looking back.

You find the one that serves you best and stick with that mentality.
My father... when he looks back he has Joy because he knows where God has brought him. My husband, prefers not to think on his past much at all.

I think it matters as well, how far along on the journey you are. The further you get from that pit, the less hold it has if you look back and regard it.

But like Lot's wife... we shouldn't look back and miss the old life.. so if you're tempted to look back and miss it... "don't look Etheeeeellll"

These are my thoughts anyway. :)

[Brother Price]

First of all, there is nothing in you or me (BC) that is worth anything. He doesn't have any 'need' for us. His chief end is to glorify Himself and we're to do the same. Before we come to Him we hate Him and want nothing to do with Him. We are debased in the worst way and we have nothing to give Him. The ONLY goodness we have is His reflection in us as He transforms us to His likeness.

To suggest that God 'longs' for something denotes His 'lack' which is not what I'm sure you mean.

Brother, I strongly disagree with this...

In the fullness of time, God saved us. He brought us into a covenant relationship with Himself through the sacrifice at Calvary. He did it because, He loves us! Love is a relationship factor. He desires and wants people to come to Him in relationship.

As for what is in us, He saw beyond our sinful state and saw what we would be in Him. That which was in us was sin, but He saw a destiny, a worth, a purpose that would cause us to come into relationship with Him.

To close, if He did not long for us to be in right standing before Him, then why did He come to die for our sins?

[nahkoe]

Can you prove from Scripture that He 'needs' us? He does everything for His glory. He chose to love us. We did not choose Him. Scripture address the completeness of God and His not lacking anything along with His perfection. Our loving Him adds nothing to His perfection.

Egotistical? He's God. He can, and does, require praise.

I can't manage enough time sitting down right now to find the scriptures I'm looking for.

Can you prove that He doesn't?

Do you have scripture for God requiring praise? I can think of a few that use the word desire.

[nahkoe]

Romans 1 states that ALL men have a knowledge of God and all men reject that knowledge.

Sure. I had a pretty deep knowledge of God, I even knew Him personally at one point. I rejected that knowledge in a pretty big way. I still spent all that time away from Him, seeking for Him. That constant desire for something more, the better, newer, nicer, more...was all a desire for God.

[Hoovie]

What if they were killing 2 year olds? Would that make a difference?

Exactly my first thoughts when I hear how people are "offended" by Prolife statements/actions.

[Mrs. LPW]

Exactly my first thoughts when I hear how people are "offended" by Prolife statements/actions.

I think there are right ways to protest and wrong ways.

Wrong: ie hollering obscenities, screaming "murderer" at a young woman entering a clinic, or "you deserve to die"
(among other things, such as the death threats and shooting of abortion doctors)

This is reminicent of a certain crowd with stones in their hands and a woman at Jesus feet.

Right: holding your sign, speaking calmly, writing letters to government, preaching against it with love and compassion and opening places for woman to go when they become unexpectedly pregnant.
(among other things I'm sure)

Because of the many 'Wrong' ways abortion has been addressed and approached, there are woman who, like this lady before coming to God, would spit at people protesting.

If we protest things, we better do it in the most Christ-like manor or we're probably going to be in trouble with Him.

[Hoovie]

I think there are right ways to protest and wrong ways.

Wrong: ie hollering obscenities, screaming "murderer" at a young woman entering a clinic, or "you deserve to die"
(among other things, such as the death threats and shooting of abortion doctors)

This is reminicent of a certain crowd with stones in their hands and a woman at Jesus feet.

Right: holding your sign, speaking calmly, writing letters to government, preaching against it with love and compassion and opening places for woman to go when they become unexpectedly pregnant.
(among other things I'm sure)

Because of the many 'Wrong' ways abortion has been addressed and approached, there are woman who, like this lady before coming to God, would spit at people protesting.

If we protest things, we better do it in the most Christ-like manor or we're probably going to be in trouble with Him.

Amen. I can see that, but nothing justifies killing your own children.

[Mrs. LPW]

Amen. I can see that, but nothing justifies killing your own children.


Nothing whatsoever.. AMEN

[ReformedDave]

If we protest things, we better do it in the most Christ-like manor or we're probably going to be in trouble with Him.

Awesome post.

[ReformedDave]

Sure. I had a pretty deep knowledge of God, I even knew Him personally at one point. I rejected that knowledge in a pretty big way. I still spent all that time away from Him, seeking for Him. That constant desire for something more, the better, newer, nicer, more...was all a desire for God.

I would say it was a desire to BE god. Adam and Eve tried it and all of mankind has followed.

[ReformedDave]

Brother, I strongly disagree with this...

In the fullness of time, God saved us. He brought us into a covenant relationship with Himself through the sacrifice at Calvary. He did it because, He loves us! Love is a relationship factor. He desires and wants people to come to Him in relationship.

As for what is in us, He saw beyond our sinful state and saw what we would be in Him. That which was in us was sin, but He saw a destiny, a worth, a purpose that would cause us to come into relationship with Him.

To close, if He did not long for us to be in right standing before Him, then why did He come to die for our sins?

I've never denied that He loved us. He loved us when we hated Him. If we are anything it is what He has put IN us and nothing that we have 'naturally'. All our righteousness was as filthy rags. No man does good on his own. All have sinned.....and yet He chooses to love His own. Wondrously weird.

He has a communion with man that He has initiated. Not for some 'need' that God has. He is perfect and in need of nothing. But to show His glory and pleasure in redeeming His own. If man chooses not to praise Him the rocks will....but He will be praised.

[Mrs. LPW]

I would say it was a desire to BE god. Adam and Eve tried it and all of mankind has followed.

This is true... "to be as Gods knowing good and evil" is the original mess.

I know I battle with control every day, in the natural and in the spiritual.
Like Nahkoe said, when you come to the end of the search you realize it isn't control you need, but it's God.

I do believe that there are men who search... for the pearl of great price, all of their lives and when they find it they sell everything they have to get it.
And men who simply walk blindly, and stumble upon the treasure... but when they find it they sell all they have to buy that field.

My husband wrote a Bible study called "The Source of Life" If I have the time, I'll post it. I am afraid this thread has already gone off it's original course enough, or I would post it here. :)

[ReformedDave]

God created us in His image and now we create Him in ours.

[Mrs. LPW]

God created us in His image and now we create Him in ours.

And so we've come full circle in this thread...
Abortion is one way mankind creates Him in their image.

[ReformedDave]

And so we've come full circle in this thread...
Abortion is one way mankind creates Him in their image.

Exactly. Man being sovereign.......

[Pressing-On]

Exactly my first thoughts when I hear how people are "offended" by Prolife statements/actions.

I think there are right ways to protest and wrong ways.

Wrong: ie hollering obscenities, screaming "murderer" at a young woman entering a clinic, or "you deserve to die"
(among other things, such as the death threats and shooting of abortion doctors)

This is reminicent of a certain crowd with stones in their hands and a woman at Jesus feet.

Right: holding your sign, speaking calmly, writing letters to government, preaching against it with love and compassion and opening places for woman to go when they become unexpectedly pregnant.
(among other things I'm sure)

Because of the many 'Wrong' ways abortion has been addressed and approached, there are woman who, like this lady before coming to God, would spit at people protesting.

If we protest things, we better do it in the most Christ-like manor or we're probably going to be in trouble with Him.
Thank you, Mrs. LPW! This is so true. And just because someone protests the protesters, it doesn't mean they are on the side of justifying the wrong of it.

Can we imagine the turmoil in that girl's heart as she makes her way to end a life so that she can continue to care for herself because she doesn't think she can do both? Is she wrong? Certainly she is, but she doesn't know any other answer and she can't find a way out.

So, she looks across the street and sees people holding a sign that says, "Jesus Saves". How does that help her?

It certainly didn't help my friend. What helped her? A pentecostal girl happened to get hired at her place of business. She befriended her and brought her to church. She has a beautiful family now. She has her Masters in Education and three beautiful children. God is good!

[Mrs. LPW]

I think I've 'known' Stephen long enough to know he wouldn't advocate the crazies who protest out there...

It is hard sometimes though, for Christians to look past the sin to the sinner... because some sins seem more heinous... like the killing of innocent babies.

At the same time, as hard as it is sometimes, we're still given the ministry of reconciliation.

[nahkoe]

Thank you, Mrs. LPW! This is so true. And just because someone protests the protesters, it doesn't mean they are on the side of justifying the wrong of it.

Can we imagine the turmoil in that girl's heart as she makes her way to end a life so that she can continue to care for herself because she doesn't think she can do both? Is she wrong? Certainly she is, but she doesn't know any other answer and she can't find a way out.

So, she looks across the street and sees people holding a sign that says, "Jesus Saves". How does that help her?

It certainly didn't help my friend. What helped her? A pentecostal girl happened to get hired at her place of business. She befriended her and brought her to church. She has a beautiful family now. She has her Masters in Education and three beautiful children. God is good!

To get back on topic...lol

Exactly. It's a huge problem, but protesting doesn't do anything to fix it. I'm glad your friend did find help.

[Hoovie]

Ladies, of course I do not advocate cruelty or hate speech as a way of reaching people for Christ. And yes many attitudes can repel rather than appeal.

I am looking at it from a broader perspective I guess... Like how would or should the US react if the French were allowed to dismember their toddlers at will - and in fact did so to the tune of over a million a year?? Would we understand people getting mean or violent?

It is the same thing. I am not sure that being nice is always the best thing... ... but I speak as a struggling pacifist.

[Mrs. LPW]

Ladies, of course I do not advocate cruelty or hate speech as a way of reaching people for Christ. And yes many attitudes can repel rather than appeal.

I am looking at it from a broader perspective I guess... Like how would or should the US react if the French were allowed to dismember their toddlers at will - and in fact did so to the tune of over a million a year. Would we understand people getting mean or violent?

It is the same thing. I am not sure that being nice is always the best thing... ... but I speak as a struggling pacifist.

I understand your dilemma completely. Dilemma probably isn't the right word, confliction maybe? I understand it. Allowing child molesters to walk free is something I feel extreme anger over at times..
Crimes committed against the innocent... children, babies.. they are much harder to stomach... and even more so when they are legalized.

[Ronzo]

First of all, there is nothing in you or me (BC) that is worth anything. He doesn't have any 'need' for us. His chief end is to glorify Himself and we're to do the same. Before we come to Him we hate Him and want nothing to do with Him. We are debased in the worst way and we have nothing to give Him. The ONLY goodness we have is His reflection in us as He transforms us to His likeness.

To suggest that God 'longs' for something denotes His 'lack' which is not what I'm sure you mean.

You have an incorrect view of God, my friend. I'm sorry to say that.


The Hebrew word for Love is ahav. According to Gesenius, the father of modern Lexicography - the one Brown Driver Briggs based their feeble attempt at a lexicon on, the word ahav means to breathe after. To long for. To desire. It's passionate. It's fiery. Pardon the bluntness... It's "I gotta have her"...


God said it was not good for man to be alone, because it was not good for GOD to be alone. He created us to love us... and to receive love from us. He wanted a Bride. He desired a Bride. He longed for a Bride.

We aren't some educational science experiment or some way to show the devil something... we're here because He wants us. He wants us intimately. He wants us completely.

[ReformedDave]

You have an incorrect view of God, my friend. I'm sorry to say that.


The Hebrew word for Love is ahav. According to Gesenius, the father of modern Lexicography - the one Brown Driver Briggs based their feeble attempt at a lexicon on, the word ahav means to breathe after. To long for. To desire. It's passionate. It's fiery. Pardon the bluntness... It's "I gotta have her"...


God said it was not good for man to be alone, because it was not good for GOD to be alone. He created us to love us... and to receive love from us. He wanted a Bride. He desired a Bride. He longed for a Bride.

We aren't some educational science experiment or some way to show the devil something... we're here because He wants us. He wants us intimately. He wants us completely.

I've never said that God doesn't love us. His sacrifice of His Son was the supreme act of love. What I am saying is that God doesn't NEED us. If He needed anything He would not be perfect and complete. Besides, show me Scripture that states that He has a need for humans.

[ReformedDave]

Some have taken offense that God has raised man up for His own glory. Please check these references- These show God's zeal for His own glory-
Exodus 14:4; 1 Samuel 12:20-22; 2 Samuel 7:23; 2 Kings 19:34; Isaiah 43:6-7, 25; 48:9-11; 49:3; Jeremiah 13:11; Ezekiel 20:14; 36:22-23; Psalms 25:11; 106:7-8; Habakkuk 2:14; Matthew 5:16; John 5:44; 7:18; 12:27-28; 14:13; 16:14; 17:1, 24; Acts 12:23; 1 Corinthians 10:31; Romans 1:22-23; 3:23-26; 9:22-23, 17; 11:36; 15:7; Ephesians 1:4-6; Philippians 1:9,11; 2 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 1 Peter 2:12; 4:11; Revelation 21:23

Scripture does not present God’s “love” as an end in itself. God’s love and redemption shown towards sinners is frequently used to show that God acts in these things for His own glory (Exodus 9:16; 2 Samuel 7:26; Psalm 79:9; Isaiah 42:8; 48:9; Ezekiel 36:22, 32; John 17:5; Romans 9:17; 11:36; Ephesians 1:6, 12, 14).

[Ronzo]

I've never said that God doesn't love us. His sacrifice of His Son was the supreme act of love. What I am saying is that God doesn't NEED us. If He needed anything He would not be perfect and complete. Besides, show me Scripture that states that He has a need for humans.


To suggest that God 'longs' for something denotes His 'lack' which is not what I'm sure you mean.

That's EXACTLY what it's saying when it says he "loves" us.

He LONGS for us... passionately.



If a man LONGS for his wife... he NEEDS her... passionately.

[ReformedDave]

That's EXACTLY what it's saying when it says he "loves" us.

He LONGS for us... passionately.



If a man LONGS for his wife... he NEEDS her... passionately.

He's not complete without us?

[ReformedDave]

That's EXACTLY what it's saying when it says he "loves" us.

He LONGS for us... passionately.



If a man LONGS for his wife... he NEEDS her... passionately.

Scripture references please.

[Ronzo]

He's not complete without us?

He didn't WANT to be complete without us.

He created us despite what it would cost him. He wanted a bride. So badly that he was willing to endure the cross for her.

[Ronzo]

Scripture references please.

H157 is the word.

Go get a Gesenius Hebrew Chaldee Lexicon. Look it up.

[ReformedDave]

He didn't WANT to be complete without us.

He created us despite what it would cost him. He wanted a bride. So badly that he was willing to endure the cross for her.

If God is incomplete He is not perfect and all sufficient(He is not God). As I stated and showed Scripture for, His love he graciously showed to us is not the end in it's self. He showed His love to us to give glory to Himself. I believe there is enough Scripture to make that point.

[Ronzo]

If God is incomplete He is not perfect and all sufficient(He is not God). As I stated and showed Scripture for, His love he graciously showed to us is not the end in it's self. He showed His love to us to give glory to Himself. I believe there is enough Scripture to make that point.

I didn't say God was incomplete.

What I said was that God did not WANT to be complete WITHOUT us...


I'm done here....

Have fun arguing with yourself, Dave....

[ReformedDave]

I didn't say God was incomplete.

What I said was that God did not WANT to be complete WITHOUT us...


I'm done here....

Have fun arguing with yourself, Dave....

BTW, you brought this up again. It had died down. You are great at the hit an run. I proved my point which you haven't even addressed. BTW, I've been looking up Scripture in the OT and haven't run across the definition that you have used yet.

[Ronzo]

BTW, you brought this up again. It had died down. You are great at the hit an run. I proved my point which you haven't even addressed. BTW, I've been looking up Scripture in the OT and haven't run across the definition that you have used yet.


One more freebie...

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H0157&Version=kjv

Look at the bottom of the page for "Gesenius's Lexicon"

Click on "Click Here for the Rest of the Entry"

Read the definitions... specifically the first and second ones, since they are the ones that apply most of the time.

[ReformedDave]

One more freebie...

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H0157&Version=kjv

Look at the bottom of the page for "Gesenius's Lexicon"

Click on "Click Here for the Rest of the Entry"

Read the definitions... specifically the first and second ones, since they are the ones that apply most of the time.

I have the lexicon you've mentioned. This type of 'love' does not always mean 'sexual'. It can mean love of a family member. There are different usages and many different words that we translate 'love'.......but I'm sure you know this. Which verses were you referring to?

BTW, did you check out my "freebies"?

[Ronzo]

I never said God saw us in a sexual light.

I said it's PASSIONATE... it's hunger... marriage is designed to show us God's love for us. The intensity. The passion...




Have a nice night, Dave... sweet dreams...

[ReformedDave]

I never said God saw us in a sexual light.

I said it's PASSIONATE... it's hunger... marriage is designed to show us God's love for us. The intensity. The passion...



When you learn how to apply the definitions correctly, then I guess I'll discuss this further...

Have a nice night, Dave... sweet dreams...

I do understand. What Scripture can you use to achieve your point? As you are aware there are several other words in the OT that we interpret as 'love'. Which Scripture do you have that uses this specific word in relation to God's love for the human race?

Boy! You start the discussion and then get condescending. Doesn't seem to be too constructive.

What might help is that along with your vast study of linguistics you also get some understanding of systematics......

[Rhoni]

Oh this story is so, so sad. Counseling should be so much more readily available, *good* counseling.

:angelsad

My first experience with the abortion issue was when I was 16 and in 11th grade. I had a good friend who was Jewish...orthodox Jewish. She went to a party and got drunk and had sex with some young man. When she found out she was pregnant she went to her father because her mother was very traditional. Her father didn't want her to embarrass the family so they never told the mother and he flew her to New York to visit 'friends' where she had an abortion. She was never the same.

I took her home with me one time and she met my Mom and Mom talked to her about Jesus. She told me that she only knew Jesus to be a cuss word but when she came in my house she could feel something different. Through the years I have wondered what happened to her..I trust she found her way to Jehoveh.

Blessigns, Rhoni

[King's Child]

My first experience with the abortion issue was when I was 16 and in 11th grade. I had a good friend who was Jewish...orthodox Jewish. She went to a party and got drunk and had sex with some young man. When she found out she was pregnant she went to her father because her mother was very traditional. Her father didn't want her to embarrass the family so they never told the mother and he flew her to New York to visit 'friends' where she had an abortion. She was never the same.

I took her home with me one time and she met my Mom and Mom talked to her about Jesus. She told me that she only knew Jesus to be a cuss word but when she came in my house she could feel something different. Through the years I have wondered what happened to her..I trust she found her way to Jehoveh.

Blessigns, Rhoni

It is so sad when a baby is considered an embarrassment, a problem something to just be done away with. But each baby is someone. Who gives us the right to decide if someone lives or dies. It is so sad when it is a federal offense to break an eagle's egg but we can kill thousands of unborn babies every day.

[Rhoni]

It is so sad when a baby is considered an embarrassment, a problem something to just be done away with. But each baby is someone. Who gives us the right to decide if someone lives or dies. It is so sad when it is a federal offense to break an eagle's egg but we can kill thousands of unborn babies every day.

I agree!

Blessings, Rhoni