View Full Version : Disfellowshipping because of Sin: When, if ever?
Hypothetical scenario:
A pastor tells his congregation, one Sunday morning, that his son has impregnated a young lady of the church, who is not his fiance; and will be removed from all ministries w/ in the Church and will be disfellowshipped from the congregation citing scriptures like 1 Cor. 5 as precedent for doing so. His board has asked that he reconsider his position on the matter allowing for a time of discipline and perhaps allow for future restoration .... feeling that this stance is too harsh.
1 Corinthians 5 reads:
9 I wrote to you in my letter(N (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%205;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28447N)) not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10(O (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%205;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28448O)) not at all meaning(P (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%205;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28448P)) the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters,(Q (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%205;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28448Q)) since then you would need to go out of the world. 11But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone(R (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%205;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28449R)) who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging(S (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%205;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28450S)) outsiders?(T (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%205;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28450T)) Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13God judges[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%205;&version=47;#fen-ESV-28451b)] those outside.(U (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%205;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28451U)) "Purge the evil person from among you."
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When do we purge or expel a member from our local congregation .... or the Body? When is enough, enough?
Does the nature of the offense determine this decision to disfellowship? For example, is there a difference between heterosexual fornication and homosexuality?
Is there a difference between stealing church funds and pedophilia?
Your opinions on how this hypothetical pastor has handled this situation?
What say ye?
Another scripture for this discussion:
2 Timothy 3:
1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power.
Have nothing to do with them.
6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth.
Another scripture:
2 Thessalonians 3
13But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
14And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
MissBrattified
02-26-2008, 12:19 PM
Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Thank you Miss B ... important verse to the discussion.
MissBrattified
02-26-2008, 12:20 PM
In the hypothetical, it sounds like the pastor is being more harsh with his own son than he would be with an unrelated member of the congregation or staff.
In the hypothetical, it sounds like the pastor is being more harsh with his own son than he would be with an unrelated member of the congregation or staff.
What if this has been his modus operandi for years with all his members sometimes for what we would consider "small fries" ?
MissBrattified
02-26-2008, 12:24 PM
What if this has been his modus operandi for years?
Then the pastor may feel he has to make sure he treats his son with the same harsh discipline he has treated others, else he would be deemed unfair or as playing favorites--which would be true.
I wonder if the son is repentant or defiant? That would make a difference in how it was handled--at least, I'd hope so.
...I would hope that no church would put out a repentant saint.
DividedThigh
02-26-2008, 12:26 PM
ihave personally believed and taught for years that the biblical mandate for discipline is restoration, but in the extremes this isnt possible , but the key is in the extremes, lack of repentance, lack or remorse, and of course rehabilitation, imho, dt
ihave personally believed and taught for years that the biblical mandate for discipline is restoration, but in the extremes this isnt possible , but the key is in the extremes, lack of repentance, lack or remorse, and of course rehabilitation, imho, dt
So if one is persistent in said sin and appears non-recalcitrant we cut the cord? When? How many strikes? Does the nature of the offense determine our "patience" in the matter?
Would a person struggling w/ pornagraphy get a longer leash than the person who is struggling w/ homosexuality?
Then the pastor may feel he has to make sure he treats his son with the same harsh discipline he has treated others, else he would be deemed unfair or as playing favorites--which would be true.
I wonder if the son is repentant or defiant? That would make a difference in how it was handled--at least, I'd hope so.
...I would hope that no church would put out a repentant saint.
I would hope so to, Miss B. I guess also the offense and shame may be greater to the pastor because it's his son?
Do you think God allows, not condones, these type of things to help shape character?
COOPER
02-26-2008, 12:35 PM
And they brought forth a lady too.....saying THE LAW requires stoning.
Lets all get stoned with her!
COOPER
02-26-2008, 12:36 PM
Be careful lest you fall.......
MissBrattified
02-26-2008, 12:37 PM
I would hope so to, Miss B. I guess also the offense and shame may be greater because it's his son?
Do you think God allows, not condones, these type of things to help shape character?
I don't know. I've never been a fan of this type of church "discipline", except for extreme cases of open rebellion--and even then I don't like it.
Some parents react differently. Some react in anger and shame, others act with understanding and wisdom. The former and the latter don't really work in tandem, IMO. PM incoming.
Be careful lest you fall.......
I agree, Coop. But it does appear there is a point where Paul says we may have to disassociate w/ a person persisting in wickedness. Do we follow this as a command ... a suggestion?
COOPER
02-26-2008, 12:40 PM
I would hope so to, Miss B. I guess also the offense and shame may be greater to the pastor because it's his son?
Do you think God allows, not condones, these type of things to help shape character?
God can use sin to the good.
He can allow you to fall flat on your "holy butt"....into sin, just to teach you a lesson...
I dont know that you put people away out of hand. when there is consistant sin and rebellion and many warnings, there may be a place for it but I think the heart of what Paul was talking about was someone or some group that were doing very wrong things, and seeking to get others involved in their sin, while at the same time disregarding the warnings from the ministry.
MissBrattified
02-26-2008, 12:42 PM
I think if someone is unrepentant, unapologetic, and persists in the sin, especially openly (e.g., in-your-face), then some action may need to be taken. But it should be taken carefully and prayerfully and after other means have been exhausted. (Counsel, prayer, rebuke)
When someone is in a position of authority, it may be reasonable for them to be removed from that position because of their influence over others.
freeatlast
02-26-2008, 12:42 PM
I dont know that you put people away out of hand. when there is consistant sin and rebellion and many warnings, there may be a place for it but I think the heart of what Paul was talking about was someone or some group that were doing very wrong things, and seeking to get others involved in their sin, while at the same time disregarding the warnings from the ministry.
I think we have a winner in this post...kudos ferd
mfblume
02-26-2008, 12:43 PM
Disfellowshipping occurs when the sin is continued, and the person refuses to cease.
Disfellowshipping occurs when the sin is continued, and the person refuses to cease.
Elder, do you think at times we are more patient w/ certain types of persistent, unrepentant sins?
Would a person struggling w/ pornagraphy get a longer leash than the person who is struggling w/ homosexuality?
MissBrattified
02-26-2008, 12:45 PM
You need to flesh out your hypothetical a little more, Daniel. Is the pastor's son repentant or is he planning on continuing to be with this other young woman? Also, you said "who is not his fiance"...does he have a fiance that he has now cheated on? *curious*
COOPER
02-26-2008, 12:46 PM
I agree, Coop. But it does appear there is a point where Paul says we may have to disassociate w/ a person persisting in wickedness. Do we follow this as a command ... a suggestion?
It seems like there was a lot of Fornication and Adultery in the early church.
They obviously did not dis-fellowship all, at the drop of a sin.
It's a case by case deal.....if you think you should dis-fellowship some one, do it.
We {wife and I} dis-fellowshipped some friends of ours recently because of their sexual mis-conduct.
Somethings need dis-fellowshipped.
Disfellowshipping occurs when the sin is continued, and the person refuses to cease.
I know of a single person who should have been put out of a church.
that person eventully left (after causeing vast amounts of problems ranging from sowing discord to gross sin)
the pastor was more long suffering than I counciled him to be. in the end it worked out God moved.
the problem terrorizes he x-apostolic church down the street. hee hee.
You need to flesh out your hypothetical a little more, Daniel. Is the pastor's son repentant or is he planning on continuing to be with this other young woman? Also, you said "who is not his fiance"...does he have a fiance that he has now cheated on? *curious*
I gather that he would be repentant. The fiance would hypothetically know, being a member of the church. I'd imagine she would be ashamed two-fold ... one because of the "affair" and perhaps people thinking that she may have been involved intimately w/ him too.
mfblume
02-26-2008, 12:49 PM
Elder, do you think at times we are more patient w/ certain types of persistent, unrepentant sins?
Would a person struggling w/ pornagraphy get a longer leash than the person who is struggling w/ homosexuality?
Yes. I think we are more patient with some strugglers than others. It is naturally easier to tolerate in patience one who struggles with porn, etc., than it is to tolerate one who struggles with homosexuality. Homosexuality is much more repulsive in our hearts.
However, the term STRUGGLE shows the person is not refusing to repent. They want to cease the sin. The person who sees no wrong in it and refuses to repent is "out".
Yes. I think we are more patient with some strugglers than others. It is naturally easier to tolerate in patience one who struggles with porn, etc., than it is to tolerate one who struggles with homosexuality. Homosexuality is much more repulsive in our hearts.
However, the term STRUGGLE shows the person is not refusing to repent. They want to cease the sin. The person who sees no wrong in it and refuses to repent is "out".
I think too, the consideration has to involve whether or not the sin is private and personal, or something that is being brought to others in the church.
it is one thing to have a man who comes to a pastor and reveals a struggle with pornography.
it is entirely different when you have someone who is shaing porn with others in the church.
the warning in scripture is not to avoid those struggling. but to avoid those who would ensnare.
mfblume
02-26-2008, 12:53 PM
I think too, the consideration has to involve whether or not the sin is private and personal, or something that is being brought to others in the church.
it is one thing to have a man who comes to a pastor and reveals a struggle with pornography.
it is entirely different when you have someone who is shaing porn with others in the church.
the warning in scripture is not to avoid those struggling. but to avoid those who would ensnare.
VERY good point!!!
COOPER
02-26-2008, 12:54 PM
Yes. I think we are more patient with some struggler's than others. It is naturally easier to tolerate in patience one who struggles with porn, etc., than it is to tolerate one who struggles with homosexuality. Homosexuality is much more repulsive in our hearts.
However, the term STRUGGLE shows the person is not refusing to repent. They want to cease the sin. The person who sees no wrong in it and refuses to repent is "out".
Did the early church members council the Pastors and elders the way church members do today?
A_PoMo
02-26-2008, 12:54 PM
One consideration too, of many, is that Paul seemed concerned in I Cor about what unbelievers would think. Some of it is a little relative to the culture in that sometimes "not even THEY would do that" is what I see implied there. It's not the only consideration, but should be considered as well in making such a last ditch decision. But the goal, in my opinion, should be reconciliation and not punitive. Paul was clear about this as well. Too often I think we "turn people over to Satan" and forget the purpose of that is that they'll come back to God and too often we close the door on them forever. I'm not so sure that's the best approach. In fact, I'm convinced it's not. We shouldn't leave our wounded for dead.
mfblume
02-26-2008, 12:56 PM
Did the early church members council the Pastors and elders the way church members do today?
I think they exerted more faith and deliverance, personally. They had POWER. Today, counsel replaces gifts of the Spirit! ;) They actually cast out devils back then! (SHOCKING!) lol
Yes. I think we are more patient with some strugglers than others. It is naturally easier to tolerate in patience one who struggles with porn, etc., than it is to tolerate one who struggles with homosexuality. Homosexuality is much more repulsive in our hearts.
However, the term STRUGGLE shows the person is not refusing to repent. They want to cease the sin. The person who sees no wrong in it and refuses to repent is "out".
I agree that the word struggle is different. But is ranking of sin is this manner fair or even biblical?
Are both of these sin not what Paul refered to in 1 Corinthians 5?
a. The term sexually immoral is the ancient Greek word porneia; it broadly refers to all types of sexual activity outside of marriage (including homosexuality).
i. Originally, porneia just referred to going to prostitutes; but before New Testament times, the Jewish community used the word to refer to any kind of extramarital sex, including homosexuality. This is its sense in the New Testament.
ii. Commentators on the word porneia: “the Scripture by this word comprehends all species of unlawful mixtures.” (Poole) “must be understood in its utmost latitude of meaning, as implying all kinds of impurity.” (Clarke)
iii. Porneia so often appears first in New Testament “sin lists” but not because the first Christians had a lot of “hang ups” about sex. Instead, it is because the area of sex was one of the most dramatic places where the ethics of Greek culture clashed with the ethics of Jesus. Sexual immorality was an accepted fact of life for the common person in Greek culture, but it was not to be so among the followers of Jesus.
http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/4605.htm
Didn't Jesus say that if we lust w/ our eyes it is the same as doing the act?
mfblume
02-26-2008, 12:57 PM
I agree that the word struggle is different. But is ranking of sin is this manner fair or even biblical?
Are both of these sin not what Paul refered to in 1 Corinthians 5?
a. The term sexually immoral is the ancient Greek word porneia; it broadly refers to all types of sexual activity outside of marriage (including homosexuality).
i. Originally, porneia just referred to going to prostitutes; but before New Testament times, the Jewish community used the word to refer to any kind of extramarital sex, including homosexuality. This is its sense in the New Testament.
ii. Commentators on the word porneia: “the Scripture by this word comprehends all species of unlawful mixtures.” (Poole) “must be understood in its utmost latitude of meaning, as implying all kinds of impurity.” (Clarke)
iii. Porneia so often appears first in New Testament “sin lists” but not because the first Christians had a lot of “hang ups” about sex. Instead, it is because the area of sex was one of the most dramatic places where the ethics of Greek culture clashed with the ethics of Jesus. Sexual immorality was an accepted fact of life for the common person in Greek culture, but it was not to be so among the followers of Jesus.
http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/4605.htm
Didn't Jesus say that if we lust w/ our eyes it is the same as doing the act?
I agree with all you said above.
I think too, the consideration has to involve whether or not the sin is private and personal, or something that is being brought to others in the church.
it is one thing to have a man who comes to a pastor and reveals a struggle with pornography.
it is entirely different when you have someone who is shaing porn with others in the church.
the warning in scripture is not to avoid those struggling. but to avoid those who would ensnare.
Very good point ....
MissBrattified
02-26-2008, 12:59 PM
I think they exerted more faith and deliverance, personally. They had POWER. Today, counsel replaces gifts of the Spirit! ;) They actually cast out devils back then! (SHOCKING!) lol
Yes, in today's world it seems unpopular to even recognize that the devil might have a hand in something, or that he might be influencing a person into wrong doing.
If you mention an "evil spirit", folks often look at you like you've grown two heads.
mfblume
02-26-2008, 01:03 PM
Yes, in today's world it seems unpopular to even recognize that the devil might have a hand in something, or that he might be influencing a person into wrong doing.
If you mention an "evil spirit", folks often look at you like you've grown two heads.
Right. It's the CENSORED fourth of Christ's entire ministry.
Elder Blume and others, How well are we as an Apostolic Church dealing w/ those that are struggling w/ various hangups? What can we do better?
mfblume
02-26-2008, 01:08 PM
Bro., we can do A LOT better. Some churches are doing great jobs with it, while others do nothing.
Bro., we can do A LOT better. Some churches are doing great jobs with it, while others do nothing.There is a pervasive Pentecostal doctrine called PRAYING THROUGH ... some believe that the person needs to have a good praying through ... with a demostrative show at the altar and BAM! ... instant fix!!!!
I'm not saying God can't do things instantaneously ... my dad was instantly delivered from heroin addiction when he came to Christ ... but we'd have to admit ... many don't have this experience w/ their compulsions, addictions ... hangups.
mfblume
02-26-2008, 01:15 PM
There is a pervasive Pentecosta doctrine called PRAYING THROUGH ... some believe that the person needs to have a good praying through ... with a demostrative show at the altar and BAM! ... instant fix!!!!
I'm not saying God can't do thing instantaneously ... my dad was instantly delivered from heroin addiction when he came to Christ ... but we'd have to admit ... many don't have this experience.
Exactly. Counsel is required. I really see need for more gifting operated in the church. Discernment of Spirits, for example, does not discount counseling, though. It is very helpful in counseling!
But there is always more need for believers to simply have more loving patience.
2 Timothy 2:24-26 KJV And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, (25) In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; (26) And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Many cannot patiently work with people, and have to cast away the above passage of Scripture. I am sure there were cases where patient, continued work with believers in the early church occurred, as well.
If there was no need for patience in working with people, and all was an instant whammo!, Romans 6 through 8 would never have been written. But that passage deals with coming to UNDERSTAND things about our salvation so that sin does not rule in our mortal bodies. THAT TAKES TIME. People have lived for God today for decades, and cannot understand those issues!
Hypothetical scenario:
A pastor tells his congregation, one Sunday morning, that his son has impregnated a young lady of the church, who is not his fiance; and will be removed from all ministries w/ in the Church and will be disfellowshipped from the congregation citing scriptures like 1 Cor. 5 as precedent for doing so. His board has asked that he reconsider his position on the matter allowing for a time of discipline and perhaps allow for future restoration .... feeling that this stance is too harsh.
1 Corinthians 5 reads:
9 I wrote to you in my letter(N (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%205;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28447N)) not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10(O (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%205;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28448O)) not at all meaning(P (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%205;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28448P)) the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters,(Q (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%205;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28448Q)) since then you would need to go out of the world. 11But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone(R (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%205;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28449R)) who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging(S (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%205;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28450S)) outsiders?(T (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%205;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28450T)) Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13God judges[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%205;&version=47;#fen-ESV-28451b)] those outside.(U (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%205;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28451U)) "Purge the evil person from among you."
---------------------------------------------
When do we purge or expel a member from our local congregation .... or the Body? When is enough, enough?
Does the nature of the offense determine this decision to disfellowship? For example, is there a difference between heterosexual fornication and homosexuality?
Is there a difference between stealing church funds and pedophilia?
Your opinions on how this hypothetical pastor has handled this situation?
What say ye?
That is the reason that there are more secret Abortions going on in church circles.
Folks are taught that God will forgive them of any sin.
So they would rather do that then suffer the ignorance of man.
It should not be celebrated.
But folks should be helped with respect and understanding through these situations.
I would never leave a friend if have gone from the church that is when they need me to be a friend more than ever...
COOPER
02-26-2008, 01:17 PM
Elder Blume and others, How well are we as an Apostolic Church dealing w/ those that are struggling w/ various hangups? What can we do better?
Were sin abounds, grace even more abounds......
Some things that people have to deal with is overwhelming and sad.
It will test even the most faithful.
mfblume
02-26-2008, 01:19 PM
Were sin abounds, grace even more abounds......
That passage preempts Romans 6, which I mentioned earlier. Those truths TAKE MUCH TIME and teaching for folks to understand. This indicates there is no quick-fix for everything. TIME must be utilized to lead folks into victory over sins in the flesh with these passages.
TrmptPraise
02-26-2008, 01:20 PM
There is a pervasive Pentecosta doctrine called PRAYING THROUGH ... some believe that the person needs to have a good praying through ... with a demostrative show at the altar and BAM! ... instant fix!!!!
I'm not saying God can't do thing instantaneously ... my dad was instantly delivered from heroin addiction when he came to Christ ... but we'd have to admit ... many don't have this experience.
You and I have had this discussion before in relevance to outward worship. God can and will (in many cases) cause an instantaneous change in a person. It will always be preceded by a repentant heart. It does not, however, turn off the pressures or temptations of life and the world. There in lies the struggle. It is when one never comes to repentance and never fights the fight. They become an enabler of sin rather than picking up the Sword against it. Thats when a pastor has to ask themselves....is more damage being done to church body by this sin's existence than the good I can do by attempting to continue to bring this one to repentance?
Elder Blume and others, How well are we as an Apostolic Church dealing w/ those that are struggling w/ various hangups? What can we do better?
Maybe if we stopped preaching so much about the "good" sowing.
Give and it shall be given back 100 fold.
Preachers are so stuck on prosperity.
They have forgotten to preach on you sow what you reap..
The wages of sin are death.
Today most feel Sin-Repent, Sin-Repent, Sin-Repent....
That passage preempts Romans 6, which I mentioned earlier. Those truths TAKE MUCH TIME and teaching for folks to understand. This indicates there is no quick-fix for everything. TIME must be utilized to lead folks into victory over sins in the flesh with these passages.
But some feel that saying to someone ... "you're just not living victoriously" and "you need to pray more" are trite answers to complicated and layered situations.
DividedThigh
02-26-2008, 01:39 PM
So if one is persistent in said sin and appears non-recalcitrant we cut the cord? When? How many strikes? Does the nature of the offense determine our "patience" in the matter?
Would a person struggling w/ pornagraphy get a longer leash than the person who is struggling w/ homosexuality?
well i view both as wrong equitably, the severity of the circumstance and the attitude of the offender would definitely determine, time and consequence, dt
OneAccord
02-26-2008, 01:40 PM
Hypothetical scenario:
A pastor tells his congregation, one Sunday morning, that his son has impregnated a young lady of the church, who is not his fiance; and will be removed from all ministries w/ in the Church and will be disfellowshipped from the congregation citing scriptures like 1 Cor. 5 as precedent for doing so. His board has asked that he reconsider his position on the matter allowing for a time of discipline and perhaps allow for future restoration .... feeling that this stance is too harsh.
When do we purge or expel a member from our local congregation .... or the Body? When is enough, enough?
Does the nature of the offense determine this decision to disfellowship? For example, is there a difference between heterosexual fornication and homosexuality?
Is there a difference between stealing church funds and pedophilia?
Your opinions on how this hypothetical pastor has handled this situation?
What say ye?
A young man, who has "relations" with a woman that is not his wife, has no place in a leadership position, whether it be a girl friend, fiance, or rank stranger. He should be removed from his "position" as a leader in the church. That goes for any sin, listed and not listed, when the sin has a direct connection to others. Because "positions" aren't about having a fancy name plate on the door. Those in ministerial positions serve by example. Sin of the nature you describe brings a serious reproach on the church and, ultimately, on the Gospel it stands for. The integrity of the church, and that of everyone from the pastor to the janitor is at stake.
I'm all for restoration. But allowing one to remain in a leadership position does noting to restore the fallen. Actually, the opposit of true. Sweeping the incident under the rug condones the act, and leads the fallen further from the grace of God's forgiveness. However, "disfellowshipping the fallen" isn't necessarily the correct course of action, unless the sin is of a repetitive nature. Jesus gave the example of how many times we should seek to restore the fallen. If they reject our counsel, then, we may need to take the drastic step to "disfellowship".
I think of Pauls writing:
2Cr 2:5 But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.
2Cr 2:6 Sufficient to such a man [is] this punishment, which [was inflicted] of many.
2Cr 2:7 So that contrariwise ye [ought] rather to forgive [him], and comfort [him], lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
2Cr 2:8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm [your] love toward him.
I believe the fallen should be forgiven. They should be restored. And that goes for whatever the sin is. Its called accountability. But, the restoration process should be done outside the leadership position. Don't slam the door of fellowship in his face. But, at the same time, make it very clear sin in the camp will not be winked at. And, whether we like it or not, the leaders, who have authority and influence in the church, are held, and rightly so, to a higher standard than the janitor of the church.
DividedThigh
02-26-2008, 01:49 PM
unfortunately counsel reaches only some people there are times when some people need a good kick in the butt to get them on the right track , sometimes life does that and sometimes we have too, lol,dt:kickcan
unfortunately counsel reaches only some people there are times when some people need a good kick in the butt to get them on the right track , sometimes life does that and sometimes we have too, lol,dt:kickcan
Classic "Tough Love" approach???
DividedThigh
02-26-2008, 01:55 PM
Classic "Tough Love" approach???
thats it dan, tough love, it works with our kids and our friends, and others, lol, just got to have the right motives and spirit, lol,dt
MikeinAR
02-26-2008, 01:57 PM
You and I have had this discussion before in relevance to outward worship. God can and will (in many cases) cause an instantaneous change in a person. It will always be preceded by a repentant heart. It does not, however, turn off the pressures or temptations of life and the world. There in lies the struggle. It is when one never comes to repentance and never fights the fight. They become an enabler of sin rather than picking up the Sword against it. Thats when a pastor has to ask themselves....is more damage being done to church body by this sin's existence than the good I can do by attempting to continue to bring this one to repentance?
Trmpt I agree with everything you said. That's a very succint account of the case of so many in churches today.
I agree with Daniel that the only real classification of sin I find is that of a sexual nature being worse since it is done against our bodies. I think to classify homosexuality as "worse" than heterosexual fornication is taking liberty with scripture. The problem I see is how long is long enough to allow for repentance?
If a cohabitating or other practicing homosexual or heterosexual couple attends your church and has heard the truth of their sinfullness yet doesn't abandon their sin, how long is it ok to not disfellowship them? Two weeks, a month, two months?
OneAccord
02-26-2008, 02:04 PM
Originally Posted by TrmptPraise
You and I have had this discussion before in relevance to outward worship. God can and will (in many cases) cause an instantaneous change in a person. It will always be preceded by a repentant heart. It does not, however, turn off the pressures or temptations of life and the world. There in lies the struggle. It is when one never comes to repentance and never fights the fight. They become an enabler of sin rather than picking up the Sword against it. Thats when a pastor has to ask themselves....is more damage being done to church body by this sin's existence than the good I can do by attempting to continue to bring this one to repentance?
Good post, Bro. Praise. You don't risk the entire barrell of apples by allowing one rotten one to stay. And you don't sink the ship to save one is has fallen overboard. But...disfellowhip? Tough call, seeing this is a hypothetical. That should be decided on a situational basis.
A_PoMo
02-26-2008, 02:11 PM
If a cohabitating or other practicing homosexual or heterosexual couple attends your church and has heard the truth of their sinfullness yet doesn't abandon their sin, how long is it ok to not disfellowship them? Two weeks, a month, two months?
I think at this point it's best to ask for the wisdom of God as He knows the hearts of men and knows if more time is necessary or if the time is now. I think too that God is patient and longsuffering and we ought to not be quick to pull the trigger on something like this too quickly. Especially if we haven't searched our own hearts and made sure we are looking for reconciliaiton because if we're doing it from a basis of judgmentalism and not love then this negative spirit will bleed through and perhaps cause more harm than good in the long run.
I think at this point it's best to ask for the wisdom of God as He knows the hearts of men and knows if more time is necessary or if the time is now. I think too that God is patient and longsuffering and we ought to not be quick to pull the trigger on something like this too quickly. Especially if we haven't searched our own hearts and made sure we are looking for reconciliaiton because if we're doing it from a basis of judgmentalism and not love then this negative spirit will bleed through and perhaps cause more harm than good in the long run.
Brings up another comment... sometimes those that have been cut ... after awhile find another church ... interestingly, enough I've seen pastors still bicker and whine about a pastor stealing their flock even though the person has been shunned.
DividedThigh
02-26-2008, 02:17 PM
Brings up another comment... sometimes those that have been cut ... after awhile find another church ... interestingly, enough I've seen pastors still bicker and whine about a pastor stealing their flock even though the person has been shunned.
that unfortunately is true dan, what a shame, lol i have personally seen situations where the perception from the pastors behavior was that they preferred the person go to hell than be admitted to another church with proper repentance, etc, dt
A_PoMo
02-26-2008, 02:25 PM
Brings up another comment... sometimes those that have been cut ... after awhile find another church ... interestingly, enough I've seen pastors still bicker and whine about a pastor stealing their flock even though the person has been shunned.
Yes, I've seen that as well. One the flip side I've also seen entire daughter churches be disfellowshiped from the main church and the pastor of the mother church instruct his staff to pray against this other spirit-filled, Christian, Jesus Name church for their failure and destruction. I don't think that's what Paul had in mind.
TrmptPraise
02-26-2008, 02:37 PM
Brings up another comment... sometimes those that have been cut ... after awhile find another church ... interestingly, enough I've seen pastors still bicker and whine about a pastor stealing their flock even though the person has been shunned.
that unfortunately is true dan, what a shame, lol i have personally seen situations where the perception from the pastors behavior was that they preferred the person go to hell than be admitted to another church with proper repentance, etc, dt
Yes, I've seen that as well. One the flip side I've also seen entire daughter churches be disfellowshiped from the main church and the pastor of the mother church instruct his staff to pray against this other spirit-filled, Christian, Jesus Name church for their failure and destruction. I don't think that's what Paul had in mind.
For one who complained about staying on topic in your other thread, Dan, you sure know how to let this one go....:reaction :toofunny
A_PoMo
02-26-2008, 03:08 PM
Hey, I'm just trying to fit in and make friends and not dictate the topic. Goin' w/the flow.:notme
mfblume
02-26-2008, 03:22 PM
Let me wax spiritually philosophical here, (yeah right!). lol
This comes to mind, since I have been doing some youtube videos about the following issue, when reading this thread. Trees of Life as opposed to Trees of the Knowledge of good and evil.
Satan's offer to Eve was a fruit that had the ability to endow her with knowledge as to what is good and what is evil. He said it would make her as wise as God. And if you are as wise as God, why need the True God? And this is ingrained in humanity, and finds it s way into preaching and handling souls in many churches! Just provide them with a list of do's and don't's, and they can MAKE THEMSELVES do good and avoid evil.
This basically removes God from the picture. God wants to GIVE LIFE. When the adulterous woman was thrown at Jesus' feet, he distinctly said He did not condemn her. LAW -- knowledge of good and evil -- said she should be stoned. Jesus gave LIFE.
Ministry to struggling souls can either be done from a knowledge of good and evil, or Life! Knowledge of good and evil is where we get the message, "You KNOW what is right and wrong, and so you should not be doing the WRONG!" When, in fact, a person can STRUGGLE with what they know is wrong, and not get victory due to lack of God's LIFE being resorted to.
To impatiently cast away souls due to their repeated sinning is to thrive on the "knowledge of good and evil". It is not administering LIFE. There is too much of that in Apostolic circles, too! People need to learn to walk after the Spirit.
Paul did not say that if we give them enough rules as to what and what not to do, they will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. He said that if we walk after the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Walking after the flesh is relying upon fleshly WILL POWER to serve God, and that fails! Walking after the Spirit is relying upon the SPIRIT LIFE inside of us that we received when we were filled with It!
By their FRUITS ye shall know them. Fruit of Life or Fruit of Knowledge of good and evil.
MissBrattified
02-26-2008, 03:25 PM
Trmpt I agree with everything you said. That's a very succint account of the case of so many in churches today.
I agree with Daniel that the only real classification of sin I find is that of a sexual nature being worse since it is done against our bodies. I think to classify homosexuality as "worse" than heterosexual fornication is taking liberty with scripture. The problem I see is how long is long enough to allow for repentance?
If a cohabitating or other practicing homosexual or heterosexual couple attends your church and has heard the truth of their sinfullness yet doesn't abandon their sin, how long is it ok to not disfellowship them? Two weeks, a month, two months?
I thought disfellowshipping was reserved for believers who returned to sin?
Pressing-On
02-26-2008, 03:25 PM
Let me wax spiritually philosophical here, (yeah right!). lol
This comes to mind, since I have been doing some youtube videos about the following issue, when reading this thread. Trees of Life as opposed to Trees of the Knowledge of good and evil.
Satan's offer to Eve was a fruit that had the ability to endow her with knowledge as to what is good and what is evil. He said it would make her as wise as God. And if you are as wise as God, why need the True God? And this is ingrained in humanity, and finds it s way into preaching and handling souls in many churches! Just provide them with a list of do's and don't's, and they can MAKE THEMSELVES do good and avoid evil.
This basically removes God from the picture. God wants to GIVE LIFE. When the adulterous woman was thrown at Jesus' feet, he distinctly said He did not condemn her. LAW -- knowledge of good and evil -- said she should be stoned. Jesus gave LIFE.
Ministry to struggling souls can either be done from a knowledge of good and evil, or Life! Knowledge of good and evil is where we get the message, "You KNOW what is right and wrong, and so you should not be doing the WRONG!" When, in fact, a person can STRUGGLE with what they know is wrong, and not get victory due to lack of God's LIFE being resorted to.
To impatiently cast away souls due to their repeated sinning is to thrive on the "knowledge of good and evil". It is not administering LIFE. There is too much of that in Apostolic circles, too! People need to learn to walk after the Spirit.
Paul did not say that if we give them enough rules as to what and what not to do, they will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. He said that if we walk after the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Walking after the flesh is relying upon fleshly WILL POWER to serve God, and that fails! Walking after the Spirit is relying upon the SPIRIT LIFE inside of us that we received when we were filled with It!
By their FRUITS ye shall know them. Fruit of Life or Fruit of Knowledge of good and evil.
Brother Blume, this is an excellent post!!!!!
Mrs. LPW
02-26-2008, 03:26 PM
I haven't read the entire thread through yet... just relating something I am aware of.
There was a man in a church between here and the north pole who was openly gay... eventually the pastor asked him to leave and not return because he was trying to spend time around the children.
If someone was a child molester, (sexual sin) I wouldn't think twice of disfellowshipping... what hard call as a Pastor. It would break your heart if you were a true pastor, to have to do such a thing.
mfblume
02-26-2008, 03:27 PM
I haven't read the entire thread through yet... just relating something I am aware of.
There was a man in a church between here and the north pole who was openly gay... eventually the pastor asked him to leave and not return because he was trying to spend time around the children.
If someone was a child molester, (sexual sin) I wouldn't think twice of disfellowshipping... what hard call as a Pastor. It would break your heart if you were a true pastor, to have to do such a thing.
Amen and amen.
mfblume
02-26-2008, 03:27 PM
Brother Blume, this is an excellent post!!!!!
Thanks, sis.
Raven
02-26-2008, 03:54 PM
Excellent posts, one and all! I've gleaned much from everyone. More of this type of discussion would be profitable for us all.
Raven
Joelel
02-27-2008, 10:46 PM
Help them for a time to get their ducks in a row,if they will not then don't fellowship them.
Praxeas
02-27-2008, 10:52 PM
OK I did not read up on this thread, but what is fellowship referring to here? Does it mean no contact at all? Are we talking about someone that is going to your church and living in sin openly or are we talking about someone that is not going to church (backsliding) and admits they are not right with God?
Joelel
02-27-2008, 10:56 PM
Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Overtaken is one who falls into a sin and does it over and over. Everyone sins here and then but you can't pick up a sin and keep doing it over and over and over and never get victory.You disfellowship them who don't try to stop.
TrmptPraise
02-27-2008, 11:00 PM
OK I did not read up on this thread, but what is fellowship referring to here? Does it mean no contact at all? Are we talking about someone that is going to your church and living in sin openly or are we talking about someone that is not going to church (backsliding) and admits they are not right with God?
I believe we are talking about one who attends a church and is living in sin openly. Someone who perhaps by doing so, may (or may not) have an influence that would be a damage to the body.....Not talking about church acceptance of it, but rather someone who continues in sin, yet still takes their place on the pew with negative results to those around them.
Although, Dan's hypothetical does not necessarily describe that in detail...just what I have surmised from perusing the thread.
TrmptPraise
02-27-2008, 11:02 PM
You and I have had this discussion before in relevance to outward worship. God can and will (in many cases) cause an instantaneous change in a person. It will always be preceded by a repentant heart. It does not, however, turn off the pressures or temptations of life and the world. There in lies the struggle. It is when one never comes to repentance and never fights the fight. They become an enabler of sin rather than picking up the Sword against it. Thats when a pastor has to ask themselves....is more damage being done to church body by this sin's existence than the good I can do by attempting to continue to bring this one to repentance?
This was my take.
chosenbyone
02-27-2008, 11:15 PM
Overtaken is one who falls into a sin and does it over and over. Everyone sins here and then but you can't pick up a sin and keep doing it over and over and over and never get victory.You disfellowship them who don't try to stop.
I agree in part with your statement above; however, it might have appeared that someone stopped trying to be an overcomer, yet their heart still longed for deliverance.
On the other hand, a person could be so focused on working with someone who was sent to distract them by appearing to want change, but they never had any intention to fully take the steps needed for their deliverance. During that time, there could be someone else that God had intended that person to minister to, but they were too busy trying to help the decoy.
Given the different scenarios, one must be sensitive to the leading of the Holy Ghost when dealing with those that have been "overtaken" with sin. The consequences for not doing so could be grave.
Joelel
02-27-2008, 11:24 PM
I agree in part with your statement above; however, it might have appeared that someone stopped trying to be an overcomer, yet their heart still longed for deliverance.
On the other hand, a person could be so focused on working with someone who was sent to distract them by appearing to want change, but they never had any intention to fully take the steps needed for their deliverance. During that time, there could be someone else that God had intended that person to minister to, but they were too busy trying to help the decoy.
Given the different scenarios, one must be sensitive to the leading of the Holy Ghost when dealing with those that have been "overtaken" with sin. The consequences for not doing so could be grave.
I would only disfellowship someone who caused trouble in the church or tried to drag others into sin with them.
Sister Alvear
02-28-2008, 06:23 AM
There are a few people that I wish we would have disfellowshipped and they would have cause us less heartache...however it is hard to know what to do in some situations...
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