US leads the world in per capita and raw numbers.

[James Griffin]

Record Number of Americans in Prison
By DAVID CRARY,
AP
Posted: 2008-02-28 22:20:03
Filed Under: Nation News
NEW YORK - For the first time in U.S. history, more than one of every 100 adults is in jail or prison, according to a new report documenting America's rank as the world's No. 1 incarcerator. It urges states to curtail corrections spending by placing fewer low-risk offenders behind bars.



Using state-by-state data, the report says 2,319,258 Americans were in jail or prison at the start of 2008 — one out of every 99.1 adults. Whether per capita or in raw numbers, it's more than any other nation.

The report, released Thursday by the Pew Center on the States, said the 50 states spent more than $49 billion on corrections last year, up from less than $11 billion 20 years earlier. The rate of increase for prison costs was six times greater than for higher education spending, the report said.

The steadily growing inmate population "is saddling cash-strapped states with soaring costs they can ill afford and failing to have a clear impact either on recidivism or overall crime," the report said.

Susan Urahn, managing director of the Pew Center on the States, said budget woes are pressuring many states to consider new, cost-saving corrections policies that might have been shunned in the recent past for fear of appearing soft on crime.

"We're seeing more and more states being creative because of tight budgets," she said in an interview. "They want to be tough on crime. They want to be a law-and-order state. But they also want to save money, and they want to be effective."

The report cited Kansas and Texas as states that have acted decisively to slow the growth of their inmate population. They are making greater use of community supervision for low-risk offenders and employing sanctions other than reimprisonment for offenders who commit technical violations of parole and probation rules.

"The new approach, born of bipartisan leadership, is allowing the two states to ensure they have enough prison beds for violent offenders while helping less dangerous lawbreakers become productive, taxpaying citizens," the report said.

While many state governments have shown bipartisan interest in curbing prison growth, there also are persistent calls to proceed cautiously.

"We need to be smarter," said David Muhlhausen, a criminal justice expert with the conservative Heritage Foundation. "We're not incarcerating all the people who commit serious crimes. But we're also probably incarcerating people who don't need to be."

According to the report, the inmate population increased last year in 36 states and the federal prison system.

The largest percentage increase — 12 percent — was in Kentucky, where Gov. Steve Beshear highlighted the cost of corrections in his budget speech last month. He noted that the state's crime rate had increased only about 3 percent in the past 30 years, while the state's inmate population has increased by 600 percent.

The report was compiled by the Pew Center's Public Safety Performance Project, which is working with 13 states on developing programs to divert offenders from prison without jeopardizing public safety.

"Getting tough on criminals has gotten tough on taxpayers," said the project's director, Adam Gelb.

According to the report, the average annual cost per prisoner was $23,876, with Rhode Island spending the most ($44,860) and Louisiana the least ($13,009). It said California — which faces a $16 billion budget shortfall — spent $8.8 billion on corrections last year, while Texas, which has slightly more inmates, was a distant second with spending of $3.3 billion.

On average, states spend 6.8 percent of their general fund dollars on corrections, the report said. Oregon had the highest spending rate, at 10.9 percent; Alabama the lowest at 2.6 percent.

Four states — Vermont, Michigan, Oregon and Connecticut — now spend more on corrections than they do on higher education, the report said.

"These sad facts reflect a very distorted set of national priorities," said Sen. Bernie Sanders, an independent from Vermont, referring to the full report. "Perhaps, if we adequately invested in our children and in education, kids who now grow up to be criminals could become productive workers and taxpayers."

The report said prison growth and higher incarceration rates do not reflect an increase in the nation's overall population. Instead, it said, more people are behind bars mainly because of tough sentencing measures, such as "three-strikes" laws, that result in longer prison stays.

"For some groups, the incarceration numbers are especially startling," the report said. "While one in 30 men between the ages of 20 and 34 is behind bars, for black males in that age group the figure is one in nine."

The racial disparity for women also is stark. One of every 355 white women aged 35 to 39 is behind bars, compared with one of every 100 black women in that age group.

The nationwide figures, as of Jan. 1, include 1,596,127 people in state and federal prisons and 723,131 in local jails. That's out of almost 230 million American adults.

The report said the United States incarcerates more people than any other nation, far ahead of more populous China with 1.5 million people behind bars. It said the U.S. also is the leader in inmates per capita (750 per 100,000 people), ahead of Russia (628 per 100,000) and other former Soviet bloc nations which round out the Top 10.

The U.S. also is among the world leaders in capital punishment. According to Amnesty International, its 53 executions in 2006 were exceeded only by China, Iran, Pakistan, Iraq and Sudan.

Copyright 2008 The Associated Press.

[Digging4Truth]

This is largely because of the "drug war"

[James Griffin]

Additional facts for what its worth:

The murder rate in Texas in 2006 was 5.9 per 100,000, which ironically happened to the the national average exactly. As far as murder rates per country U.S. ranked 26th I believe.

Of last year’s (2007) 42 executions, 26 were in Texas. The remaining 16 were spread across nine other states, none of which executed more than three people. Many legal experts say that trend is likely to continue.

Indeed, said David R. Dow, a law professor at the University of Houston who has represented death row inmates, the day is not far off when essentially all executions in the United States will take place in Texas.

The state’s share of total executions nationwide has steadily increased: from 32 percent in 2005 to 45 percent in 2006 to 62 percent in 2007.

Texas courts, moreover, speed the process along, said Jordan M. Steiker, a law professor at the University of Texas who has represented death-row inmates.

“It’s not coincidental that the debate over lethal injections had traction in other jurisdictions but not in Texas,” Professor Steiker said. “The courts in Texas have generally not been very solicitous of constitutional claims.”

Indeed, the United States Supreme Court has repeatedly rebuked the state and federal courts that hear appeals in Texas capital cases, often in exasperated language suggesting that those courts are actively evading the Supreme Court’s rulings.

[pelathais]

Additional facts for what its worth:

The murder rate in Texas in 2006 was 5.9 per 100,000, which ironically happened to the the national average exactly. As far as murder rates per country U.S. ranked 26th I believe.
After the crack cocaine wars of the 1980's, the murder rate and overall crime dropped off dramatically. One of the biggest reasons was the increase in the numbers of people serving longer prison sentences. Since they were in prison they weren't out on the street terrorizing their communities.

Of last year’s (2007) 42 executions, 26 were in Texas. The remaining 16 were spread across nine other states, none of which executed more than three people. Many legal experts say that trend is likely to continue.
I think that the reason other states see similar numbers is because most murderers are no longer eligible for parole. For those on the outside, there is little difference between locking away a convicted killer and executing one. Either way the killer is "gone." Except in the case of a life sentence the citizens on the outside have to pay for room, board, entertainment and the prisoner's private security.

Indeed, said David R. Dow, a law professor at the University of Houston who has represented death row inmates, the day is not far off when essentially all executions in the United States will take place in Texas.

The state’s share of total executions nationwide has steadily increased: from 32 percent in 2005 to 45 percent in 2006 to 62 percent in 2007.

I guess I don't see a problem with Texas being the only state to execute its most violent and vicious killers. If that's how they deal with the problem, then so be it.

Texas courts, moreover, speed the process along, said Jordan M. Steiker, a law professor at the University of Texas who has represented death-row inmates.

“It’s not coincidental that the debate over lethal injections had traction in other jurisdictions but not in Texas,” Professor Steiker said. “The courts in Texas have generally not been very solicitous of constitutional claims.”

Indeed, the United States Supreme Court has repeatedly rebuked the state and federal courts that hear appeals in Texas capital cases, often in exasperated language suggesting that those courts are actively evading the Supreme Court’s rulings.
Until recently the US Supreme Court was controlled by the liberals on the bench and I think that it's been a while since a capital punishment case was in front of them.

It would be interesting to see which justice "has repeatedly rebuked the state and federal courts that hear appeals in Texas capital cases." That's an important distinction to make. A "rebuke" from say, Ruth Bader Ginsberg is far different than a ruling from the Court itself; and maybe that's why it sounded "exasperated." The last three paragraphs above really sound like propaganda and not "facts." The attempt to blur the comments of a single Justice as being the voice of the Court just strikes me as disingenuous.

Professor Steiker's statement also stands out: “The courts in Texas have generally not been very solicitous of constitutional claims.” What kind of nonsense is that? Since when are American courts supposed to be "solicitous?"

Solicitors are to appear before the court and make their appeals. The court then makes a judgement. When the court itself begins to be "solicitous" we loose one of the basic cornerstones of our freedom.

So, besides setting killers loose on the street and and imposing court tribunals upon us, what else does David R. Dow and the others offer? "Texas is bad?" d'uh! http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[pelathais]

Record Number of Americans in Prison
By DAVID CRARY,
AP
Posted: 2008-02-28 22:20:03
Filed Under: Nation News
NEW YORK - For the first time in U.S. history, more than one of every 100 adults is in jail or prison, according to a new report documenting America's rank as the world's No. 1 incarcerator. It urges states to curtail corrections spending by placing fewer low-risk offenders behind bars.



Using state-by-state data, the report says 2,319,258 Americans were in jail or prison at the start of 2008 — one out of every 99.1 adults. Whether per capita or in raw numbers, it's more than any other nation.
From this I would conclude that the United States must also be the most just country in the world. I notice that the PEW report and AP article never once mention a single case where an innocent person was incarcerated. And though such cases have happened, they are statistically insignificant. The fact that our justice system still seeks out and amends the statistically insignificent tells me that they must be doing a great job.

The report, released Thursday by the Pew Center on the States, said the 50 states spent more than $49 billion on corrections last year, up from less than $11 billion 20 years earlier. The rate of increase for prison costs was six times greater than for higher education spending, the report said.

The steadily growing inmate population "is saddling cash-strapped states with soaring costs they can ill afford and failing to have a clear impact either on recidivism or overall crime," the report said.

I'd be on this boat if that were true- but it's not. I think that there may well be a lot of room for us to improve; for example do all nonviolent offenders have to be locked up? Why should the aging hippy be in jail for smoking weed and incarcarated with predatory pedophiles?

...
The report cited Kansas and Texas as states that have acted decisively to slow the growth of their inmate population. They are making greater use of community supervision for low-risk offenders and employing sanctions other than reimprisonment for offenders who commit technical violations of parole and probation rules.

"The new approach, born of bipartisan leadership, is allowing the two states to ensure they have enough prison beds for violent offenders while helping less dangerous lawbreakers become productive, taxpaying citizens," the report said.
This is important. When we "crack down on crime" we really need to be also making a distinction between crimes of different severities.

...
"For some groups, the incarceration numbers are especially startling," the report said. "While one in 30 men between the ages of 20 and 34 is behind bars, for black males in that age group the figure is one in nine."

The racial disparity for women also is stark. One of every 355 white women aged 35 to 39 is behind bars, compared with one of every 100 black women in that age group.
Why are the men aged 20 - 34 and the women 35 to 39? A casual reader might suspect the stats are being cherry picked for us.

Also, since most victims of a crime, particularly violent crime know the perp - it wound seem that a disproportionate number of blacks are appearing in court as victims to testify. The implication of racism that seems to be behind citing these stats ignores the fact that blacks have the protection of police, prosecutors and the courts. And that they make use of that in numbers disproportionate to other groups.

How much of this crime and victimization could be alleviated if we acknowledged the failures of the Great Society programs and its offshoots? Back in the day of segregation terrible injustices were done against the black community but the community had foundations and didn't suffer from these levels of crime. It was when "nice" white folks stepped in because they "knew better" than the black folks that a more insidious racism took over. One result has been the crime figures cited.

The nationwide figures, as of Jan. 1, include 1,596,127 people in state and federal prisons and 723,131 in local jails. That's out of almost 230 million American adults.
hmm... according to the CIA (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/us.html) the U.S. population was 301,139,947 in July of 2007. What happened to those 70 MILLION Americans between July and January? Alien abductions?

The difference means that instead of 10 people out of every 1000 being incarcerated we have 6 out of 1000. I guess that's pretty important to 4 out of every 1000 Americans.

The report said the United States incarcerates more people than any other nation, far ahead of more populous China with 1.5 million people behind bars.
And see, that's where they loose me again. This is propaganda and rubbish. After being beat brain dead by the meandering "facts" and statistics they feel at ease to lob nonsense out at you like this. Garbage. Ask the people who have escaped from China about its prison population.

It said the U.S. also is the leader in inmates per capita (750 per 100,000 people), ahead of Russia (628 per 100,000) and other former Soviet bloc nations which round out the Top 10.

Using correct US population figures, and assuming the PEW numbers for those behind bars is correct, puts us at about 600 per 100,000 - below Russia. But why the change in the way numbers are compared? Not trying to fool us are you AP?

The U.S. also is among the world leaders in capital punishment. According to Amnesty International, its 53 executions in 2006 were exceeded only by China, Iran, Pakistan, Iraq and Sudan.
Copyright 2008 The Associated Press.
More rubbish. I guarantee you that China leads the world in this. The only problem is that China won't allow anti-Chinese propagandists to publish cooked numbers or even correct numbers. In fact, such people end up being part of the statistics.

[James Griffin]

I notice you posted at 5:30am, therefore kudos to you for being as cogent as you were.

The missing 70 million

You noted the article referenced a population of 230 million where the CIA says the US has a population of 300 million. Upon reading the article closer you would see they referenced 230 million adults, the ‘missing’ 70 million you referenced are normally called children and as of yet we generally don’t include them as candidates for the prison population. LOL

Discretion in treatment of certain crimes

To its credit Texas has made improvements to cut down on early release, when I was with the DA’s office in Harris County in the early 90’s the time actually served was about 30 days per year sentenced. I have actually come across cases of individuals being sentenced to 15 years for armed robbery being released in less than a year. Laws were passed requiring sentences for certain violent crimes to serve half sentence before even applying for parole. In some cases such as drunk driving, time served averages around 85%.

In the mid 90s Texas also passed a State Jail felony category, (kind of a super misdemeanor). Which would put non-violent offenders (economic crimes, drug possession) in minimum security jails thereby leaving more room in prison for violent offenders.

Progress in protecting the citizenry has been made.

__________________________________________________ ___________

“I guess I don't see a problem with Texas being the only state to execute it’s most violent and vicious killers. If that's how they deal with the problem, then so be it. “

As far as Texas executions; Texas is in no way out of the norm as far as citizens being rendered a death sentence. ONLY in executions carried out. Which because of its very nature deserves the highest possible scrutiny before being carried out.

The justice system in Texas ESPECIALLY in Harris County (which is the county of origin for the vast majority of executions even in Texas), is fundamentally flawed. I can attest to that not only from personal experience (prosecution and defense of capital cases here) but also a plethora of third party articles and studies.

As far as Texas executing innocents the following thread would be a place to start especially posts 1 and 34

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=11126


As for the courts, once again Texas is in the middle of the pack as far as percentage placed on death row. The Fifth circuit which hears federal appeals from Texas and the Court of Criminal Appeals in Texas (its highest criminal court) are often criticized by Supreme Court decisions (which are not sole judges in capital cases so with all respect the Ginsburg argument is a non sequitor). The Fifth circuit is as notorious for its positions on the death penalty as the Ninth Circuit is for its “anti-religious” positions.

Charges of racism and cherry picking statistics-

I am in 100% agreement with you. The charges of racism within the criminal justice system are by and large absurd. The reason there is a disproportionate number of young black males in prison is quite simply they commit a disproportionate number of the crimes. I also agree this is largely a result of the creation of a welfare state in the US. Example Women with the father living at home cannot receive welfare. Indeed for a time I worked at the Harris County DA Welfare Fraud division where FELONY charges were filed against women with either unreported income (either themselves or household members) or cases were they lied about being eligible (i.e. where the father lived in the house).

“How much of this crime and victimization could be alleviated if we acknowledged the failures of the Great Society programs and its offshoots? Back in the day of segregation terrible injustices were done against the black community but the community had foundations and didn't suffer from these levels of crime. It was when "nice" white folks stepped in because they "knew better" than the black folks that a more insidious racism took over. One result has been the crime figures cited.”

Above is a quote from your post. Extremely well said.

The issue is what are we going to do about it?


China Lies
Personally I agree with you 100%, I doubt China includes Christians in their slave labor camps as being “in prison”, nor people who simply disappear forever as being “capital executions” but really, is it not the ultimate pyrrhic victory to be able to claim “at least we are not as bad as the atheistic, communistic Chinese???”

The fact stands knock out the totalitarian regimes and we stand alone!

Conclusion While it’s been fun. (AS ALWAYS!!!) to chat with you and even bandy about statistical aberrations is it not really “missing the forest for the trees”?

The undisputed fact is we have nearly 2,000,000 incarcerated adults in this country.

On the one hand it’s an undeniable tragedy, on the other, WOW what opportunities abound for the church to get outside its walls, get its hands a little dirty, and make a difference!!

What can we do to minister? Isn’t it time to stop withdrawing from “the world” and hiding behind the excuse, “they” don’t live up to our “standards”, and make a difference?

It me the fundamental flaw in the “Tulsa-like” logic is the siege mentality. IF (please notice the all cap IF) the entertainment industry is Satan’s tool, don’t run away, take it back!! Ah well, different topic for a different thread.

Love ya Pelathais,

Honestly looking forward to the day I can meet you face to face.

[Timmy]

And though such cases have happened, they are statistically insignificant. The fact that our justice system still seeks out and amends the statistically insignificent tells me that they must be doing a great job.

Where do you get this information? It's not possible to determine the exact numbers, of course, but some put the estimate at 10% or more. Even if it's "only" 1%, that's statistically significant for the thousands of individuals affected! Some interesting reading:

http://www.truthinjustice.org/convicting.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-02-11-wrongly-convicted_x.htm

Of the innocents in prison, whatever that number is, I wonder what percentage are lucky enough to be exonerated. Statistically significant?

[Cindy]

James, do you see the prison system improving any time soon in Texas? And do you think our next governor will be less willing to execute as much? And do you know how many of the cases from Harris and Dallas county labs have been redone?

[James Griffin]

James, do you see the prison system improving any time soon in Texas? And do you think our next governor will be less willing to execute as much? And do you know how many of the cases from Harris and Dallas county labs have been redone?

Good questions. I don't think the problem is the prison system as much as the courts.

The governor really has very little to say in the matter.

If someone like Jim Leitner (the Houston Bar poll leader) were elected Harris county DA, I believe he would bring a little more sanity to the DA's office. (His chief rival went on record in a capital voir dire saying she didn't want any members from Lakewood on her jury "To start with, he's a member of Lakewood Church. And we have had a running agreement .... that people who go to Lakewood are screwballs and nuts... I'm very familiar with that church. We try our hardest not to put anybody who goes to Lakewood regularly on any jury." The DA candidate Siegler continued.)
The election is wide open since the incumbent Chuck Rosenthal stepped down two weeks ago following allegations of ethical misconduct.

Since the main pipeline feeding the death row in Texas is Harris County a little more discretion in that office would be a welcome change.

THE biggest reform in Texas needs is legislation to be able to sentence to the possibility of life without parole. Something which exists in most states, but not Texas.

The crime lab in Harris County is still reeling. In many cases DNA tests were not really performed or did not use standard protocol. I believe it is something like 1300 cases (including some capitals) are subject to review for DNA testing. Most recently I read about a lab employee not actually doing test in drug cases, the fallout from that, if substantiated could be thousands of cases.

Hope that helps....

[Cindy]

Good questions. I don't think the problem is the prison system as much as the courts.

The governor really has very little to say in the matter.

If someone like Jim Leitner (the Houston Bar poll leader) were elected Harris county DA, I believe he would bring a little more sanity to the DA's office. (His chief rival went on record in a capital voir dire saying she didn't want any members from Lakewood on her jury "To start with, he's a member of Lakewood Church. And we have had a running agreement .... that people who go to Lakewood are screwballs and nuts... I'm very familiar with that church. We try our hardest not to put anybody who goes to Lakewood regularly on any jury." The DA candidate Siegler continued.)
The election is wide open since the incumbent Chuck Rosenthal stepped down two weeks ago following allegations of ethical misconduct.

Since the main pipeline feeding the death row in Texas is Harris County a little more discretion in that office would be a welcome change.

THE biggest reform in Texas needs is legislation to be able to sentence to the possibility of life without parole. Something which exists in most states, but not Texas.

The crime lab in Harris County is still reeling. In many cases DNA tests were not really performed or did not use standard protocol. I believe it is something like 1300 cases (including some capitals) are subject to review for DNA testing. Most recently I read about a lab employee not actually doing test in drug cases, the fallout from that, if substantiated could be thousands of cases.

Hope that helps....

It sure did help thanks. I really do understand why some people are for the death penalty. And I understand why some people don't like life without parole because of taxpayers dollars being spent. But it really bothers me that innocent people are sometimes caught up in this system and some probably executed. I do think if you are going to impose the death sentence do it quickly. If one state like Texas has these big problems imagine how much the whole nation is going through. Do you know how the federal system differs from the state as far as death penalty cases? Do they have an appeal system in place? And what most of the federal death penalty cases are (assuming murder is one of them) is that the only crime the federal system uses the death penalty on? Hope you don't mind all the questions but it is very interesting to me that I don't think a lot of people really care to know as long as it doesn't affect them personally. But as Christians I believe we should try to help when we VOTE.

[James Griffin]

It sure did help thanks. I really do understand why some people are for the death penalty. And I understand why some people don't like life without parole because of taxpayers dollars being spent. But it really bothers me that innocent people are sometimes caught up in this system and some probably executed. I do think if you are going to impose the death sentence do it quickly. If one state like Texas has these big problems imagine how much the whole nation is going through. Do you know how the federal system differs from the state as far as death penalty cases? Do they have an appeal system in place? And what most of the federal death penalty cases are (assuming murder is one of them) is that the only crime the federal system uses the death penalty on? Hope you don't mind all the questions but it is very interesting to me that I don't think a lot of people really care to know as long as it doesn't affect them personally. But as Christians I believe we should try to help when we VOTE.

Life without parole ironically is actually much more cost effective than death penalty cases.

Texas is a special case in my opinion, especially Harris County. One other problem here is no public defenders office, even in capital cases the defense is appointed by the judge, which are overwhelmingly former prosecutors.

In Texas murder "with special circumstances" is the only grounds for capital (although some are working on legislation to include child molestation in certain circumstances).

I understand the feds are trying to expand their laws to include possession of a substantial amount of drugs.

As far as Christian involvement, voting is important. Learning the issues is also important. Personally, though I see the problem of "fixing" the criminal justice system (as important as that is) as secondary to "fixing" the society which is so screwed up it has nearly 2,000,000 of its citizens in prison??

To quote restate conclusion from previous post...

The undisputed fact is we have nearly 2,000,000 incarcerated adults in this country.

On the one hand it’s an undeniable tragedy, on the other, WOW what opportunities abound for the church to get outside its walls, get its hands a little dirty, and make a difference!!

What can we do to minister? Isn’t it time to stop withdrawing from “the world” and hiding behind the excuse, “they” don’t live up to our “standards”, and make a difference?

It me the fundamental flaw in the “Tulsa-like” logic is the siege mentality. IF for example (please notice the all cap IF) the entertainment industry is Satan’s tool, don’t run away, take it back!!



We need to start getting involved in taking our society back. IMHO The long term answer isn't in tougher laws or prison reform, but transforming lives. We need to influence not just government and politics, but the arenas of entertainment, education among others.

[Cindy]

Life without parole ironically is actually much more cost effective than death penalty cases.

Texas is a special case in my opinion, especially Harris County. One other problem here is no public defenders office, even in capital cases the defense is appointed by the judge, which are overwhelmingly former prosecutors.

In Texas murder "with special circumstances" is the only grounds for capital (although some are working on legislation to include child molestation in certain circumstances).

I understand the feds are trying to expand their laws to include possession of a substantial amount of drugs.

As far as Christian involvement, voting is important. Learning the issues is also important. Personally, though I see the problem of "fixing" the criminal justice system (as important as that is) as secondary to "fixing" the society which is so screwed up it has nearly 2,000,000 of its citizens in prison??

To quote restate conclusion from previous post...

The undisputed fact is we have nearly 2,000,000 incarcerated adults in this country.

On the one hand it’s an undeniable tragedy, on the other, WOW what opportunities abound for the church to get outside its walls, get its hands a little dirty, and make a difference!!

What can we do to minister? Isn’t it time to stop withdrawing from “the world” and hiding behind the excuse, “they” don’t live up to our “standards”, and make a difference?

It me the fundamental flaw in the “Tulsa-like” logic is the siege mentality. IF for example (please notice the all cap IF) the entertainment industry is Satan’s tool, don’t run away, take it back!!



We need to start getting involved in taking our society back. IMHO The long term answer isn't in tougher laws or prison reform, but transforming lives. We need to influence not just government and politics, but the arenas of entertainment, education among others.

Thanks James.

In light of what happened down the road from us here in East TX last week we do need to try to find better solutions for our young people now.

[James Griffin]

Thanks James.

In light of what happened down the road from us here in East TX last week we do need to try to find better solutions for our young people now.

First I really LOVE your avatar. True separation of church and state. :-)

Second, please forgive me, to which incident were you referring?

[Cindy]

Thank you. Last weekend a teenager and three friends apparently shot and stabbed her Mom, 2 younger brothers and Dad. Then set the house on fire. The Dad managed to get to a neigbor's 300 yards away through barbed wire fences and get help. He is in critical condition. They have 4 in custody, high school kids. The daughter is 16 so she is in a juvenile facility. The parents didn't want her to date one of the young men and so I guess this is the solution someone came up with. Not that uncommon but really hurting a lot of people in a small Texas town.

[James Griffin]

Thank you. Last weekend a teenager and three friends apparently shot and stabbed her Mom, 2 younger brothers and Dad. Then set the house on fire. The Dad managed to get to a neigbor's 300 yards away through barbed wire fences and get help. He is in critical condition. They have 4 in custody, high school kids. The daughter is 16 so she is in a juvenile facility. The parents didn't want her to date one of the young men and so I guess this is the solution someone came up with. Not that uncommon but really hurting a lot of people in a small Texas town.

Sorry to hear it. Reminds me of the Ryan Frazier capital case I second chaired when I was prosecuting in Victoria. He was a Baylor freshman who snuck home in the middle of the night, fatally stabbed his father, mother, younger brother, even dog and two cats, set the house on fire and drove back to Baylor.

If she is sixteen I would be surprised if the state does not try her as an adult....

[Cindy]

Sorry to hear it. Reminds me of the Ryan Frazier capital case I second chaired when I was prosecuting in Victoria. He was a Baylor freshman who snuck home in the middle of the night, fatally stabbed his father, mother, younger brother, even dog and two cats, set the house on fire and drove back to Baylor.

If she is sixteen I would be surprised if the state does not try her as an adult....

Yes I had heard about it happening before. I am sure they will try her as an adult. I think the others are 18 and over. 2 males and another female. I think her story was going to be that she somehow escaped. But she was found in one of the other suspects home. From local news reports the Dad was able to identify one or more of them. Do you know if it's true in Texas if you are involved whether you do the actual shooting, stabbing, or whatever causes the deaths you are equally responsible? This area of East TX is really reeling right now as can be expected. The family were very active in church including the little ones, one I believe 8, the other 13. And the mother drove for meals on wheels I believe. The boys were in the church band.

[James Griffin]

Yes I had heard about it happening before. I am sure they will try her as an adult. I think the others are 18 and over. 2 males and another female. I think her story was going to be that she somehow escaped. But she was found in one of the other suspects home. From local news reports the Dad was able to identify one or more of them. Do you know if it's true in Texas if you are involved whether you do the actual shooting, stabbing, or whatever causes the deaths you are equally responsible? This area of East TX is really reeling right now as can be expected. The family were very active in church including the little ones, one I believe 8, the other 13. And the mother drove for meals on wheels I believe. The boys were in the church band.

Truly sad. Likewise Ryan's parents were good people involved in charities and their church. Mom had just baked and mailed him a cake.

The case with the youngest tried as an adult that I was involved in was a 14 yo who killed his step-mom.

"Equally" responsible? The answer is it depends, but the general rule is yes. If. for example, she talked them into it, even if she weren't there. The US Supreme Court has recently held you cannot execute a defendant who was a juvenile at the time of the murder. However, the murders can be "stacked" which could mean three sequential life sentences. First degree murder you have serve a minimum of 35 years on a life sentence before you can apply for parole. (Which does NOT mean it will be granted). So a worse case scenario would be 105 actual years before applying.

However, since that is a worse case scenario any plea offer would be of course somewhat less than that..

Did that help??

[Cindy]

Yes it did help thanks. I just cannot imagine what those young kids are going to be facing. And you mentioned in another post that Texas doesn't have a public defender's office but a judge appoints one correct? I don't know where this trial might be maybe in Tyler but I just wonder what kind of counsel they will have. Does Texas have a higher violent crime rate than the rest of the country, do you know?

[ChristopherHall]

Isn't it true that crime rates are far lower in Europe...even though they don't have the death penalty?

[Cindy]

I am not sure brother Hall, but I have read that the police in Britian use to not carry a weapon. I am not sure if that is still the case.

[James Griffin]

Yes it did help thanks. I just cannot imagine what those young kids are going to be facing. And you mentioned in another post that Texas doesn't have a public defender's office but a judge appoints one correct? I don't know where this trial might be maybe in Tyler but I just wonder what kind of counsel they will have. Does Texas have a higher violent crime rate than the rest of the country, do you know?

Actually several counties in Texas do have a public defender's office. Harris County (Houston) is the only one I know of anywhere near its size in the entire country which doesn't. Which is a travesty considering the number of capitals, and the inadequacy of its crime lab.

If its Tyler, I believe that's Smith county. Their DA office used to have a win at all costs reputation. Hopefully it's better these days. :-)

[James Griffin]

Isn't it true that crime rates are far lower in Europe...even though they don't have the death penalty?

Overall yes but there are some with unusually high rates. As a country the US usually does NOT rate in the top ten "westernized" countries.

[James Griffin]

Yes it did help thanks. I just cannot imagine what those young kids are going to be facing. And you mentioned in another post that Texas doesn't have a public defender's office but a judge appoints one correct? I don't know where this trial might be maybe in Tyler but I just wonder what kind of counsel they will have. Does Texas have a higher violent crime rate than the rest of the country, do you know?

Not sure violent crimes as a whole but as far as murder Texas in 2006 was square in the middle of all states, 5.6 per 100,000.

2006 was actually an increase year, especially in Houston, largely attributed to post-Katrina influx. 2007 (so far) the rate is going back down.

[Cindy]

I believe there is a new DA in Smith County as the last one that I can think of is a judge of some kind now. And his successor may have been the ADA under him. Will look into it. The actual case is in Rains County and I don't know if they have a big enough place for a trial of the size this case might become.

[Cindy]

Well I am glad the murder rate is going down now. Hopefully it stays that way.