What are the Benefits of Being Independent?

[Jehoram]

What are some of the benefits of churches/ministers being independent of a larger religious organization?

Do those benefits outweigh the drawbacks of going it alone?

[Whole Hearted]

For one thing not being pressured all the time for offering.

I'd like to know what are the benefits of being in an org.?

I personally haven't seen any

[COOPER]

It's only a good thing if the man is loving and led of God.

[LadyChocolate]

I would think one would have more of an opportunity to fellowship when involved in an org..... however, from where I stand, I will travel a great distance to fellowship with others who preached the Word the way I believe it....

Independents don't have to worry about who they fellowship and they don't worry about losing everything because they preach good men who don't hold a card......

Being independent, you don't have to worry about other churches in your org called your DS because of decisions you make concerning your church... Each church should be sovereign

I've been part of the UPC..... I've been independent.....my heart is probably closer in line with the independents.....but then again, there is a broad group of independents out there also ....

[Apocrypha]

What are some of the benefits of churches/ministers being independent of a larger religious organization?

Do those benefits outweigh the drawbacks of going it alone?

I will try to give a balanced answer from someone who has walked both paths and is currently a indepedent/awcf and works currently on staff at a UPC church.

I came to a belief that I was not a good fit for the UPC because I could not sign the affirmation statement. I don't own a TV anymore, go to movies anymore, or even rent movies anymore (and its only because I work at a UPC church and want to avoid anyone having a inch to say anything about anything, I actually obey their standards better than the actual UPC ministers). But to teach personal convictions or extra-biblical rules as salvific is wrong.. our church doesnt do that, but we are the exception in the area and are known for being the "squishy UPC church" in the area (and other pastors say they aren't tied into salvation.. but in reality many times they are in actual practice). Also what I found was a disconnect between me and my fellow ministers, I am bi-vocational and enjoy being so, many of them had worked in church work for awhile and had lost touch with the culture in many ways. Also it began to warp their view of the world and how normal people actually live life since their views were rarely challenged and the only feedback they got were from the echo-chamber. All of our ministers including the pastor are bi-vocational and i will admit that makes a huge difference on our outlook on life.

For awhile I felt like I had made a bad mistake when I made a decision to leave my UPC roots since I was told I would buy into false doctrine, etc etc etc. But then I realized there was more out there than the mothership. One of my good friends from IBC (Luke Smith) was the son of the head of the AWCF. And the first time i attended a AWCF event and met dozens and dozens of bishops from different oneness orgs and hundreds of pastors both denominal and independent shattered my thinking about alot of things.

Sometimes its awkward for fellow ministers (not at my church but elsewhere) when they find out im not UPC. They usually ask me why and I tell them with all honesty I couldnt sign the affirmation statement with a good conscience and lie like some of my friends who were still in the org. They usually smile somewhat bashfully because they see a mirror to their own inner thought life in what i say (they themselves usually dont 100% toe the line to the manual.. few actually do).

The saints at times from other churches give me some hassle if im not careful in what i say since words change meaning when your dealing with folks still in the org.. i went to a party recently that I was invited to, and one of the ladies who was a ex-ministers wife was like "so you a minister" to which i said "yes" and she asked me if i was local or general and i told her I was of a different fellowship... then i instantly felt the indefinable feeling that i didnt 'measure up'. its the old debate on here of "your my brother, but am i yours?' she asked me about spiritual authority and i told her i didn't have a bishop in the normal sense and i wasn't accountable to a board in that way... i said it nicely i think, but she got huffy and said a person can't be blessed unless they are under someone, to which i kindly answered that someone for me was Christ and scriptures.

Sometimes as a independent you have to be careful of others you fellowship with and what you say at events since you can easily get attacked and things you say can be warped into a different meaning since they load up words with context "so when he said that.. was he insulting this or that doctrine".

The opportunities to fellowship are less, but the hassle and pain of having to "fit in" are reduced. Its a mixed bag, I would gladly rejoin the UPC if they ditched the affirmation statement and reduced their set of rules and left it up to the local church.

usually if you make friends it will be with pastors outside your area if your a pastor since you are a threat to them. your church will be the example of what will happen if you leave the org... you will become the boogeyman.

Examples here in texas are kenneth philips, jabo green, wendell hutchins, the jones brothers, etc etc etc to infinity... all useful boogeymen even if those doing the horror stories never visit their church themselves.

after studying it alot, the reason people hate those that leave them or are close but not quite like themselves is that they feel like they need to emphasize the differences instead of the commonalities since otherwise it would be to admit the things that seperate them are secondary... which would then force them to either change or accept that others can have a different interpretation and still be saved.

[Jehoram]

Okay, there are already some awesome posts on this thread. It seems as though the greatest benefit is freedom and the greatest drawback is a dearth of fellowship.

How do you handle the lack of fellowship? Are there other independents close by? Do you fellowship Trinitarians?

[ReformedDave]

Do you felloeship Trinitarians?


Every Sunday.....and even some other days.:bored

[Whole Hearted]

I am UPC but most of my fellowship is ind. The UPC that I now fellowship I could fellowship if I were ind..

So I can't see the benefits of the org. for fellowship and i would NEVER fellowship a trinny.

[Apocrypha]

Okay, there are already some awesome posts on this thread. It seems as though the greatest benefit is freedom and the greatest drawback is a dearth of fellwoship.

How do you handle the lack of fellowship? Are there other independents close by? Do you felloeship Trinitarians?


It depends really, if you are in a area like Houston with alot of fellow independents its easy, if your in a harder area you need to travel to events like the AWCF convention or stuff the NCO puts on. Are you a pastor or minister?

[Jehoram]

It depends really, if you are in a area like Houston with alot of fellow independents its easy, if your in a harder area you need to travel to events like the AWCF convention or stuff the NCO puts on. Are you a pastor or minister?

Yes I am.

[Pastor Keith]

What are some of the benefits of churches/ministers being independent of a larger religious organization?

Do those benefits outweigh the drawbacks of going it alone?

No worried about peer pressure or play the impress each other game, is one benefit. You can do your own thing without people talking about you, you can experiement try new things and not have to worry about the nay sayers.

But not having the ability to make a contribution to a larger group is a loss in my opinion.

[Jehoram]

I am UPC but most of my fellowship is ind. The UPC that I now fellowship I could fellowship if I were ind..

So I can't see the benefits of the org. for fellowship and i would NEVER fellowship a trinny.


Why are you still a part if you feel this way?

I ask sincerely. Is there a reason you hold on?

Like family?

[Apocrypha]

AWCF is the way to go, the nice part about the networks like AWCF, NCO, and if your further on the edge Global Network of Ministries is that you can be part of several of them. Promiseland in Austin has a fellowship in austin also.

[Jehoram]

No worried about peer pressure or play the impress each other game, is one benefit. You can do your own thing without people talking about you, you can experiement try new things and not have to worry about the nay sayers.

But not having the ability to make a contribution to a larger group is a loss in my opinion.
What sort of contribution?

[Whole Hearted]

Why are you still a part if you feel this way?

I ask sincerely. Is there a reason you hold on?

Like family?

I have my reason, plus I do still have those who ae UPC that I fellowship and they are good men. They feel as I do and their fellowships also limited among UPC.

[LadyChocolate]

Okay, there are already some awesome posts on this thread. It seems as though the greatest benefit is freedom and the greatest drawback is a dearth of fellowship.

How do you handle the lack of fellowship? Are there other independents close by? Do you fellowship Trinitarians?

Several years ago we were independent and our closest fellowship was 8hours away. Now, our preachers would go to some close by but those were not announced to the saints. It was hard for many of us who wanted to go to campmeetings because driving 8 hours away was not an option. The young people had it really rough because even if they met someone at a fellowship they knew that neither pastor would grant them permission to move if they decided to get married....

Even in the lack of fellowship, fellowshipping trinitarians was not and is not an option......

There were many times I would become aggravated because we could have fellowshipped other oneness independents but because their skirts were not as long as ours if the preacher didn't see eye to eye with our preacher, we were not allowed to fellowship.... But as long as I went there, I obeyed and didn't voice my concern..... I may not have agreed, but I did submit myself to that ministry and I did it willingly!

[Hoovie]

For one thing not being pressured all the time for offering.

I'd like to know what are the benefits of being in an org.?

I personally haven't seen any

This attitude is likely why some officials made statements that many of those interested in WPF have not been contributing much to the organization anyway in recent years.

[Jehoram]

Has the organization contributed anything into Whole Hearted in the last few years?

Perhaps this is part of the problem. The org thinks its members should serve it instead of the other way around.

Is Hazelwood a Queen Bee and everyone else simple drones?

[Hoovie]

Has the organization contributed anything into Whole Hearted in the last few years?

Perhaps this is part of the problem. The org thinks its members should serve it instead of the other way around.

Is Hazelwood a Queen Bee and everyone else simple drones?

Say what? I thought it was a way to pool resources in a unified effort to impact and win the world with the Whole Gospel. The fellowship is an added benefit.

[Whole Hearted]

Has the organization contributed anything into Whole Hearted in the last few years?

Perhaps this is part of the problem. The org thinks its members should serve it instead of the other way around.

Is Hazelwood a Queen Bee and everyone else simple drones?

I have been at my present church for nearly two years. Not one visit or phone call did I receive welcoming me to the area or to see just how things were going.

I always go to sectional and district conf. This year I was in the bed with the flu during the sectional conf. Not one call to see where I was or how I was doing.

Great fellowship

But is funny they always fine my phone number at offering time.

[Jehoram]

Say what? I thought it was a way to pool resources in a unified effort to impact and win the world with the Whole Gospel. The fellowship is an added benefit.

That is what it is supposed to be.

That is what it is not.

[BrotherEastman]

What are some of the benefits of churches/ministers being independent of a larger religious organization?

Do those benefits outweigh the drawbacks of going it alone?
You don't have to be accountable to anyone. TIC of course.

[BrotherEastman]

I am UPC but most of my fellowship is ind. The UPC that I now fellowship I could fellowship if I were ind..

So I can't see the benefits of the org. for fellowship and i would NEVER fellowship a trinny.
Question. How would you know if you saw a trinny that was independent? I've met some trinitarians that would make even you blook like a liberal. LOL!

[Whole Hearted]

Question. How would you know if you saw a trinny that was independent? I've met some trinitarians that would make even you blook like a liberal. LOL!

I know the men I fellowship. I find out about a men and his church before I fellowship them. I don't just meet someone and start fellowshipping them.

[LadyChocolate]

I know the men I fellowship. I find out about a men and his church before I fellowship them. I don't just meet someone and start fellowshipping them.

Exactly!

[A_PoMo]

I don't think there's much a down side to being independent. There is plenty of opportunity for fellowship if you will just make friends with other ministers in your area. There are usually lots of mens conferences, ministry conferences, etc.. to go if you want.

It is definitely nice not to have all the organizational politics to contend with.

The only downsides to leaving an org are, 1) If you're accustomed to having people kiss your ring finger and genuflect when you grace a pulpit then you're in a for a rude awakening when you go into an environment where nobody knows or cares who you are, 2) when you leave some orgs they brand you as a heretic and it's a bummer to have to deal with that, especially if some of them are old friends.

Other than that, my experience as an independent has been a good one. It's about to end as I'm most likely going to be ordained with a real live denomination in the next few months. All good things must come to an end.

[mizpeh]

I don't think there's much a down side to being independent. There is plenty of opportunity for fellowship if you will just make friends with other ministers in your area. There are usually lots of mens conferences, ministry conferences, etc.. to go if you want.

It is definitely nice not to have all the organizational politics to contend with.

The only downsides to leaving an org are, 1) If you're accustomed to having people kiss your ring finger and genuflect when you grace a pulpit then you're in a for a rude awakening when you go into an environment where nobody knows or cares who you are, 2) when you leave some orgs they brand you as a heretic and it's a bummer to have to deal with that, especially if some of them are old friends.

Other than that, my experience as an independent has been a good one. It's about to end as I'm most likely going to be ordained with a real live denomination in the next few months. All good things must come to an end.

What real live denomination are you talking about?

[dizzyde]

What real live denomination are you talking about?

Yeah, huh???? Inquiring minds!!! :gaga

[mizpeh]

Yeah, huh???? Inquiring minds!!! :gaga

We won't stone you! Just curious. My guess would be AoG.

[dizzyde]

We won't stone you! Just curious. My guess would be AoG.

He's just bein chicken!!! :chirp :chirp :chirp

[A_PoMo]

He's just bein chicken!!! :chirp :chirp :chirp

Sorry guys. I had to step away from the computer to change a couple of diapers. I'm a daycare provider during the day and graduate student by night.

Miz, the AoG is way too traditional and uptight for me. Besides I don't want to get the requisite AG smooth haircut and goatee. :)

Anyway, since I grew up in the papist UPC I figured I'd just go all the way and become a Roman Catholic priest. I miss people kissing my ring and genuflecting when I climb into the pulpit. :)

Ok, I'm just kidding. Actually I'm thinking of transferring my ordination from Global to Open Bible. I attend an OB church and will probably going on staff as the pastor of a second congregation in our church. If that happens I'll need to get licensed w/them just to keep the denomination gods happy. It's a small denom that is relatively backwards in alot of ways. But my local pastor is very progressive and says he'll let me get as nutty as I want in order to connect with emerging generations.

[dizzyde]

Sorry guys. I had to step away from the computer to change a couple of diapers. I'm a daycare provider during the day and graduate student by night.

Miz, the AoG is way too traditional and uptight for me. Besides I don't want to get the AG smooth haircut that is required, along with a goatee. :)

Anyway, since I grew up in the papist UPC I figured I'd just go all the way and become a Roman Catholic priest. I miss people kissing my ring and genuflecting when I climb into the pulpit. :)

Ok, I'm just kidding. Actually I'm thinking of transferring my ordination from Global to Open Bible. I attend an OB church and will probably going on staff as the pastor of a second congregation in our church. If that happens I'll need to get licensed w/them just to keep the denomination gods happy. It's a small denom that is relatively backwards in alot of ways. But my local pastor is very progressive and says he'll let me get as nutty as I want in order to connect with emerging generations.


OK, OK, we'll let you off the hook, diapers do come first!

I'm going to have to leave in bit as well, my cousin is getting married this weekend and I am on errand duty today! FUN!!

Open Bible, huh? You truly are a PoMo, aren't you?

[Jehoram]

Sorry guys. I had to step away from the computer to change a couple of diapers. I'm a daycare provider during the day and graduate student by night.

Miz, the AoG is way too traditional and uptight for me. Besides I don't want to get the requisite AG smooth haircut and goatee. :)

Anyway, since I grew up in the papist UPC I figured I'd just go all the way and become a Roman Catholic priest. I miss people kissing my ring and genuflecting when I climb into the pulpit. :)

Ok, I'm just kidding. Actually I'm thinking of transferring my ordination from Global to Open Bible. I attend an OB church and will probably going on staff as the pastor of a second congregation in our church. If that happens I'll need to get licensed w/them just to keep the denomination gods happy. It's a small denom that is relatively backwards in alot of ways. But my local pastor is very progressive and says he'll let me get as nutty as I want in order to connect with emerging generations.

Is there a website for this Open Bible?

[A_PoMo]

OK, OK, we'll let you off the hook, diapers do come first!

I'm going to have to leave in bit as well, my cousin is getting married this weekend and I am on errand duty today! FUN!!

Open Bible, huh? You truly are a PoMo, aren't you?

Have fun. Can you pick me up a box of baby wipes from Costco? Thanks, you're a doll. :)

Yeah, I'm nervous about it to some degree. But I really want to do something about my passion to reach post-modern generations and do all sorts of weird, out-of-the-box stuff that I'm willing to swallow the denominaitonal pill in order to do it. But it shouldn't be all that bad I don't think. I've met the regional people and they're cool. My pastor is very cool and even though I've done my best to freak him out and scare him off he keeps taking me out to lunch and saying I'm the guy to plant this church and he wants to pay for it. Who am I to refuse? We're still talking about it though.

My Dad is a UPC pastor and tells me that it's alot like daycare, pastoring is. Lots of back rubbing, burping, and butt wiping and every now and then you gotta break up a fight and make people play nice. If that's all it is then I guess I'm ready! :)

[A_PoMo]

Is there a website for this Open Bible?

They're trinitarian. Still want the link? :)

Here yar, www.openbible.org

Sorry to hijack the thread.

[mizpeh]

They're trinitarian. Still want the link? :)

Here yar, www.openbible.org

Sorry to hijack the thread.

Doesn't that mean you're Trinitarian as well? :reaction


I guess I put all Trinitarian Pentecostals in the same lump! What makes an Open Bible Church any different from the AoG?

[A_PoMo]

Honestly, I'm pretty neutral on the subject. I've told them that I don't think it's a deal breaker either way and they're good with that. I'm just as happy to be labeled Oneness as I am Trinitarian, as heretical as that might seem to some folks on both sides. They're ok w/it and so am I. I'll just not advertise it unnecessarily in order to keep the peace.

[tv1a]

By the time you're done with that, you are too wore out to deal with new converts.



My Dad is a UPC pastor and tells me that it's alot like daycare, pastoring is. Lots of back rubbing, burping, and butt wiping and every now and then you gotta break up a fight and make people play nice. If that's all it is then I guess I'm ready! :)

[tv1a]

The devils believe in one God and wet themselves. Scriptures shows an understanding of a oneness doctrine is revelatory. Our priorities are so far out of whacked we have seem to miss the boat. Jesus name batpism is important. Understand a oneness theology. Not that important. Many seem not to separate the two.

Honestly, I'm pretty neutral on the subject. I've told them that I don't think it's a deal breaker either way and they're good with that. I'm just as happy to be labeled Oneness as I am Trinitarian, as heretical as that might seem to some folks on both sides. They're ok w/it and so am I. I'll just not advertise it unnecessarily in order to keep the peace.

[A_PoMo]

The devils believe in one God and wet themselves.


RFLOL!! That's a good one...wet themselves...haha.

I believe in one God. But I don't wet myself. Sorry. :)

[A_PoMo]

Doesn't that mean you're Trinitarian as well? :reaction


I guess I put all Trinitarian Pentecostals in the same lump! What makes an Open Bible Church any different from the AoG?

Ooops, sorry. I didn't see the question until now.

The OBC, from what I can tell, is pretty laid back and from what I'm told is fairly hill billy and backwards in some respects. Not alot of vision and their biggest church is 1000 I think. The only reason I'm attracted to them is that our region is very progressive and trying to turn the ship around (which is attainable since it has all the big churches and all the money). But really the biggest draw for me is the chance to work w/my OBC pastor and to maybe realize my dream/passion of starting an emergent type Pentecostal church. I've come to really respect my pastor and I want to work for him. If it helps him that I get licensed then that's cool w/me.

My impression and personal experience w/the AoG is that it's a highly politicized environment that is very strong on its AoG traditions. I'm not too much down w/all that. Plus, did I mention the haircut and goatee thing? :)

[BrotherEastman]

The devils believe in one God and wet themselves. Scriptures shows an understanding of a oneness doctrine is revelatory. Our priorities are so far out of whacked we have seem to miss the boat. Jesus name batpism is important. Understand a oneness theology. Not that important. Many seem not to separate the two.
Now that's funny, I don't care who you are. LOL!:bliss

[mizpeh]

Does emergent to you mean you don't believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God or the ultimate source for truth?

[A_PoMo]

Does emergent to you mean you don't believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God or the ultimate source for truth?

No. I'm not that kind of emergent...that's Emergent, capital E. Although I've benefited from some of their ideas (McLaren, Jones, et al) I'm not a theological liberal in that regard.

I'm emergent in that I want to reach emerging generations and I want to use creative and unorthodox methods to do so when effective.

[mizpeh]

No. I'm not that kind of emergent...that's Emergent, capital E. Although I've benefited from some of their ideas (McLaren, Jones, et al) I'm not a theological liberal in that regard.

I'm emergent in that I want to reach emerging generations and I want to use creative and unorthodox methods to do so when effective.

I've been learning about Post Modernism at this site:

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/268theologyquestions

Check out questions 13-21.

Are you okay with answering some questions I might have after I finish watching these videos?

[A_PoMo]

Sure, just as long as you don't expect me to have all the answers. I'm post-modern, I have alot of questions and very few answers. :)

It's funny the reactions I get from church folk when I mention pomo and emergent. I carpool to school w/a good Conservative Baptist guy and you should have seen him weird out and get all twitchy when I said, "I want to start a church for post-moderns." I thought that was a pretty harmless statement, but he about passed a large-print KJV hardback in my front seat. After awhile he calmed down and now we're friends again. There's alot of misinformation out there about 'the emerging church' from what I can tell, although I can't comment either way on your website. You recommended it to me recently but I haven't had a chance to look at it yet. I bookmarked it though.

[mizpeh]

Sure, just as long as you don't expect me to have all the answers. I'm post-modern, I have alot of questions and very few answers. :)

It's funny the reactions I get from church folk when I mention pomo and emergent. I carpool to school w/a good Conservative Baptist guy and you should have seen him weird out and get all twitchy when I said, "I want to start a church for post-moderns." I thought that was a pretty harmless statement, but he about passed a large-print KJV hardback in my front seat. After awhile he calmed down and now we're friends again. There's alot of misinformation out there about 'the emerging church' from what I can tell, although I can't comment either way on your website. You recommended it to me recently but I haven't had a chance to look at it yet. I bookmarked it though.

You should check out the blog on that site called Parchment and Pen. There's mucho stuff on the emerging church as of late and this article which reminds me of you. LOL Here's a snippet:

"Bono’s Charge Against American Evangelicalism
~ C Michael Patton ~

With all this talk about the problems in my Evangelical tradition and the way it is perceived from the outside, I thought that I would have you look at it through the eyes of Irish rocker and lead singer of U2 Bono (Paul Hewson). Bono is a Christian, but he would be best classified as an emerging Christian. As I often say, Bono was emerging when emerging wasn’t cool. All of his songs tell a message, a Christian message, of some sort.

Below is an interpretation of “Crumbs from Your Table.” Bono has said that this song was written to the Evangelical church many years ago (late nineties). In recent interviews, however, he says that he has changed his opinion, to some degree, about the Evangelical church because they have proved themselves more concerned about social issues. President Bush was part of the reason that Bono changed, but it also came through many meetings Bono had with Evangelical leaders in the last few years. (I was actually in charge of facilitating one meeting between Bono and Chuck Swindoll, but it never happened—Chuck said he did not know who he was!)"



It didn't copy the huge pic of Bono! :tantrum

[NW Pastor]

For one thing not being pressured all the time for offering.

I'd like to know what are the benefits of being in an org.?

I personally haven't seen any

How true. I hate constantly feeling the pressure to do my part to reach souls around the world, people I will never see and cannot touch. Furthermore, they cannot do anything for me, or add anything to my reputation or my ministry by becoming a number to boast about on my record breaking services. Souls reached via these useless offerings can never carry my bible or mow my church lawn, or pay me their tithes.

What a total waste of money.

It is so much easier to fullfill the Great Commission on my own anyway, without all the pesky intrustions from those others whose ideas are often suspect and inferior than mine. That's why my money only funds my ideas.

Also, it is so hard to get along with all those differing viewpoints in an organization. It would take a life of constant prayer and devotion to our common purpose to keep us unified. Boy, it's so hard to cooperate with all those others when I am so busy building my (I mean his) kingdom.

[RandyWayne]

After all, there is no "I", in "We". :)

[A_PoMo]

You should check out the blog on that site called Parchment and Pen. There's mucho stuff on the emerging church as of late and this article which reminds me of you. LOL Here's a snippet:




It didn't copy the huge pic of Bono! :tantrum


Yeah, Bono says alot of good things to say about the evangelical church now. He talked alot about it in his Rolling Stone magazine interview a couple of years ago. In fact, that article was pretty amazing because Bono spent at least half of the time talking about his faith, the Bible, how evangelicals came through for the AIDS crisis in Africa, how their songs are essentially prayers, etc.... You'da thought he was interviewing for CCM or something (except for the ocassional cuss word.:) ). Rolling Stone isn't exactly a conservative rag. He was single handedly instrumental in getting Bill Hybels involved reaching out to Africa. Bill did a really cool interview with Bono that they broadcast at the Willow Creek Summit a couple of years ago. Excellent interview. Bono called him and he didn't know who Bono was either. Bill's kids told him 'DAD! YOU GOTTA RETURN THAT CALL!!!". haha.

Here are the lyrics you're referring to...

"You speak of signs and wonders
I need something other
I would believe if I was able
But I'm waiting on the crumbs from your table"



Ouch.

[NW Pastor]

That is what it is supposed to be.

That is what it is not.

Rather a broad statement, don't you think? I am sure there could be money managed more efficiently at times. But at least there is money. I'm not sure the answer is to withdraw all funding, but rather tweak the system. As the old cliche goes, "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater."

[NW Pastor]

After all, there is no "I", in "We". :)

Wow! That is SO TRUE!

[Pragmatist]

I went to an Open Bible church for a time. It was one of their larger ones but I highly doubt it was in the region you are in. :) I think they are less Trinitarian than AOG if there are degrees of Trinitarianism. :)

[A_PoMo]

I went to an Open Bible church for a time. It was one of their larger ones but I highly doubt it was in the region you are in. :) I think they are less Trinitarian than AOG if there are degrees of Trinitarianism. :)


Yeah, I've been going for almost a year now and haven't heard one reference to the Trinity from the pulpit or in small groups. They mentioned in the new member class but that's about it. Not a huge deal w/these guys. Some AG folks can get pretty anal about it. I had one old AG geezer trap me in a corner at his church once and demand to know if I was "...one of them JESUS ONLY people!!" Then other AG people I've met don't care. It's usually the older ones that trip out about it.


Regarding the missions stuff in other posts. Do you have to be a part of an org to give to missions?

What does TIC mean?

[mizpeh]

What does TIC mean?tongue in cheek

[dizzyde]

How true. I hate constantly feeling the pressure to do my part to reach souls around the world, people I will never see and cannot touch. Furthermore, they cannot do anything for me, or add anything to my reputation or my ministry by becoming a number to boast about on my record breaking services. Souls reached via these useless offerings can never carry my bible or mow my church lawn, or pay me their tithes.

What a total waste of money.

It is so much easier to fullfill the Great Commission on my own anyway, without all the pesky intrustions from those others whose ideas are often suspect and inferior than mine. That's why my money only funds my ideas.

Also, it is so hard to get along with all those differing viewpoints in an organization. It would take a life of constant prayer and devotion to our common purpose to keep us unified. Boy, it's so hard to cooperate with all those others when I am so busy building my (I mean his) kingdom.

:chirp

****Coughs cautiously.......

Amen!!!! :amen

[dizzyde]

Sure, just as long as you don't expect me to have all the answers. I'm post-modern, I have alot of questions and very few answers. :)

It's funny the reactions I get from church folk when I mention pomo and emergent. I carpool to school w/a good Conservative Baptist guy and you should have seen him weird out and get all twitchy when I said, "I want to start a church for post-moderns." I thought that was a pretty harmless statement, but he about passed a large-print KJV hardback in my front seat. After awhile he calmed down and now we're friends again. There's alot of misinformation out there about 'the emerging church' from what I can tell, although I can't comment either way on your website. You recommended it to me recently but I haven't had a chance to look at it yet. I bookmarked it though.


I really agree with a lot of the post modern concepts, but my problem up until now (you may be shifting the tide here!) is that is most of the post moderns that I have come in contact with personally are soooo opinionated and arrogant that it totally turns me off.

I am a big believer in the idea that there is more than one way to do just about everything, so when I come across anyone that seems to think that their way is the only right way, well, I get "peeved"!

[A_PoMo]

I really agree with a lot of the post modern concepts, but my problem up until now (you may be shifting the tide here!) is that is most of the post moderns that I have come in contact with personally are soooo opinionated and arrogant that it totally turns me off.

I am a big believer in the idea that there is more than one way to do just about everything, so when I come across anyone that seems to think that their way is the only right way, well, I get "peeved"!

Yeah, alot of emerging church folk get all elitist "up in here" too often. It's a pretty stupid stance to take since the whole pomo scene is so new and evolving so rapidly that there really isn't anything to get all snooty about. The ironic thing is that some emergent types get all twisted in a knot over how 'yeserday' modernity is yet the churches that seem to be having the most success in the emerging church genre are decidedly modern in many ways. The biggest difference to this point is one of style and some ecclesiastical issues in how they're organized. Other than that they do many of the same things. I think prob the biggest difference is perhaps on emphasis with churches trying to truly be missional in their community as well on a more artistic, creative, participatory form of worship. But to get all arrogant about an era that doesn't even have a name yet is pretty dumb, imo. All we can really say about it is that it's after modernity, post-modern. It'll be awhile before we can categorize it any meaningful way. But to be fair, I run into alot of opinionated and arrogant people on the other side of the fence who are quick to castigate all things pomo and emerging which can be just as frustrating. I guess that's why I appreciate my pastor. He sees the growing hole in his church demographic between the ages of 18-34 and he realizes he doesn't know what to do and is willing to give a newbie like me a shot at it since I have a passion about it and feel called to it and I'm willing to lay my neck on the line to see if we can't do something positive. I respect that kind of honesty and that kind of humility in a leader. Not all that common in middle aged Pentecostal preachers ( of which I am almost one myself. haha). Fortunately for the emerging movement not all of their spokesmen are stuck up. I've spent a little time with Brian McLaren and although I disagree with some of his theology I must say he's a sweet soul. I've spent a little more time with Dan Kimball and he's a really nice guy, very humble and kind. It's worth noting too that there are variations w/in the whole emergent scene, i.e. libs and cons. Unfortunately if you say "emergent' too often you get lumped automatically in w/the liberal wing. This is only fair in the sense that they're the ones organizing and have their websites, etc... But there are conservatives (theologically) in the group too (Kimball, Driscoll) that are very uncomfortable w/the liberal theology of the other group and while they like the overall goal (keeping the church relevant in a new age) they aren't comfortable w/changing to the orthodoxy.

[dizzyde]

Yeah, alot of emerging church folk get all elitist "up in here" too often. It's a pretty stupid stance to take since the whole pomo scene is so new and evolving so rapidly that there really isn't anything to get all snooty about. The ironic thing is that some emergent types get all twisted in a knot over how 'yeserday' modernity is yet the churches that seem to be having the most success in the emerging church genre are decidedly modern in many ways. The biggest difference to this point is one of style and some ecclesiastical issues in how they're organized. Other than that they do many of the same things. I think prob the biggest difference is perhaps on emphasis with churches trying to truly be missional in their community as well on a more artistic, creative, participatory form of worship. But to get all arrogant about an era that doesn't even have a name yet is pretty dumb, imo. All we can really say about it is that it's after modernity, post-modern. It'll be awhile before we can categorize it any meaningful way. But to be fair, I run into alot of opinionated and arrogant people on the other side of the fence who are quick to castigate all things pomo and emerging which can be just as frustrating. I guess that's why I appreciate my pastor. He sees the growing hole in his church demographic between the ages of 18-34 and he realizes he doesn't know what to do and is willing to give a newbie like me a shot at it since I have a passion about it and feel called to it and I'm willing to lay my neck on the line to see if we can't do something positive. I respect that kind of honesty and that kind of humility in a leader. Not all that common in middle aged Pentecostal preachers ( of which I am almost one myself. haha).

Oh, I totally agree, the arrogance definitely goes both ways. That is what I was referring to when I was talking about anyone feeling like their way is the only way.

The funny thing is that while my pastor cringes at the pomo term, largely for the same reasons that I have done, he is is fairly progressive in his methods. It is really all semantics, most of the time I think.

[A_PoMo]

Well, I wouldn't reduce it down to semantics as I think there are more substantive differences that that. But I understand (and tolerate) your point of view. :) That's pretty big of me if you ask me. haha.

People get all nervous and morose about pomo. But I like what Bono says, "It's a beautiful day! Don't let it get away!" . When I hear that song I take it as a challenge to the church.

[dizzyde]

Well, I wouldn't reduce it down to semantics as I think there are more substantive differences that that. But I understand (and tolerate) your point of view. :) That's pretty big of me if you ask me. haha.

People get all nervous and morose about pomo. But I like what Bono says, "It's a beautiful day! Don't let it get away!" . When I hear that song I take it as a challenge to the church.

Oh, well, thank you kind sir, for your forbearance!! :bow

I do understand that there are bigger differences, but I also think that we get put off by wording or labeling at times, maybe the gap is bigger than it needs to be in some instances.

Not the vast majority of them, of course, but occasionally! :gaga

[A_PoMo]

LOL! F'sho sister!

[chseeads]

I didn't read all the way through the thread, but I don't know what you people are talking about that say you have more fellowship in an org.

You have fellowship when you get your hindend out and fellowship with somebody. Being in an org doesn't mean fellowship magically appears out of thin air.

There's plenty of people in orgs that don't fellowship with anybody.

If you're independent and don't act like you have a stick up your behind because of it, you can fellowship with whoever you want to, whether the other parties are in an org or not.

[mizpeh]

Yeah, alot of emerging church folk get all elitist "up in here" too often. It's a pretty stupid stance to take since the whole pomo scene is so new and evolving so rapidly that there really isn't anything to get all snooty about. The ironic thing is that some emergent types get all twisted in a knot over how 'yeserday' modernity is yet the churches that seem to be having the most success in the emerging church genre are decidedly modern in many ways. The biggest difference to this point is one of style and some ecclesiastical issues in how they're organized. Other than that they do many of the same things. I think prob the biggest difference is perhaps on emphasis with churches trying to truly be missional in their community as well on a more artistic, creative, participatory form of worship. But to get all arrogant about an era that doesn't even have a name yet is pretty dumb, imo. All we can really say about it is that it's after modernity, post-modern. It'll be awhile before we can categorize it any meaningful way. But to be fair, I run into alot of opinionated and arrogant people on the other side of the fence who are quick to castigate all things pomo and emerging which can be just as frustrating. I guess that's why I appreciate my pastor. He sees the growing hole in his church demographic between the ages of 18-34 and he realizes he doesn't know what to do and is willing to give a newbie like me a shot at it since I have a passion about it and feel called to it and I'm willing to lay my neck on the line to see if we can't do something positive. I respect that kind of honesty and that kind of humility in a leader. Not all that common in middle aged Pentecostal preachers ( of which I am almost one myself. haha). Fortunately for the emerging movement not all of their spokesmen are stuck up. I've spent a little time with Brian McLaren and although I disagree with some of his theology I must say he's a sweet soul. I've spent a little more time with Dan Kimball and he's a really nice guy, very humble and kind. It's worth noting too that there are variations w/in the whole emergent scene, i.e. libs and cons. Unfortunately if you say "emergent' too often you get lumped automatically in w/the liberal wing. This is only fair in the sense that they're the ones organizing and have their websites, etc... But there are conservatives (theologically) in the group too (Kimball, Driscoll) that are very uncomfortable w/the liberal theology of the other group and while they like the overall goal (keeping the church relevant in a new age) they aren't comfortable w/changing to the orthodoxy.

Pomo,

Another head's up for you, Dan Kimball is going to be on "Conversing with the Scholars" program via PalTalk March 20. In case your interesting...

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/cws/futureguests and Mark Driscoll a week later.

[A_PoMo]

Thanks. I'll check that out. Kimball is very thoughtful.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

I left the UPC church and started going to the indep church just this past December, so that's where I'm coming from.
I love the idea of being indep, I love the NT feel- there was just something about the organizational mess that didn't feel right. Being hit up for money, the arrogance of SOME of those in the ministry, the artificial/ non-organic feel to things, it seemed out of order, and of course there were the traditions that were sacred cows, even when Scripture shot down those traditions.
Now, I'm not saying all independents are perfect, and as for indeps I've fellowshipped only with indeps in Maine and New Brunswick so my experience is limited. But because we're not an org, you can't make generalizations about us, one indep church can be vastly different than another. You can have ex-upci.net and other websites like that that claim the UPC is spiritually abusive and cultish (which I think is going far) but you wouldn't have ex-indep's or something like that. We're simple, we're indep, we're part of the Body, we're not the whole thing, we're scattered, small-scale, hopefully humble, doing the best with what we have, what we know and where we are.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[Barb]

What are some of the benefits of churches/ministers being independent of a larger religious organization?

Do those benefits outweigh the drawbacks of going it alone?

Thinking of going it alone, AE...?!

[Whole Hearted]

Just got back for a wonderful meeting at an ind. church.

Hears elder Booker and McMullen and Brother Ben Weeks.

Great church and great services and we did have to listen to a thing about any org.