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Jason B
03-07-2008, 08:07 PM
I am new to this board, so please pardon me if you all have discussed this before.

I am at a total loss why we apostolics tend to be divisive and reclusive as a movement. What could we do and how could we affect to world, if we had a real apostolic fellowship? Instead of putting UPC missionaries basically in competition with ALJC missionaries and PAW missionaries, we could plan better, say this city has a missionary or two, so why not put the next missionary in the next city. Imagine the influence of our churches if we had 2 or 3 large churches in a major city, instead of 40 churches of 20 people.

Yet of course, we can't fellowship with the next church, well because they have tv's, or our sleeves are longer than theirs. And we cant come together in unity, because someone would have to be an associate/asst pastor, instead of senior pastor. And God forbid if anyone give up thier place as superintendent or other posistions.

So we pine away, one split after another. We as a movement are surviving, but not thriving. And why? Has the power of God left? No. But we have decided who is God's church and who isn't.

I have never been to or even heard of a service, meeting, conference or campmeeting that was put together for the purpose of apostolics coming together for woship and unity.

I live in texas, and can testify it would be amazing if any of these things happened here. (On an unrelated thought, when did camp meeting become a social fashion party?) Can you imagine a conference that was UPC, ALJC, PAW, AWCF, and independents. It would have to be held in a stadium, certainly would be in Lufkin. Or even an area where 3 small churches pulled together to make 1 fairly strong and noticable church?

Yet from what I can gather, everyone is worried about what this person/group believes about holiness, modesty, tithing, sabbath, etc.

I say (perhaps in ignorance) that we should concentrate on the common denominator, that is our fundamental apostolic doctrine o the oneness of God, baptism in Jesus name, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost. for by One Spirit we are all baptized into One Body.

Jack Shephard
03-07-2008, 08:17 PM
I am new to this board, so please pardon me if you all have discussed this before.

I am at a total loss why we apostolics tend to be divisive and reclusive as a movement. What could we do and how could we affect to world, if we had a real apostolic fellowship? Instead of putting UPC missionaries basically in competition with ALJC missionaries and PAW missionaries, we could plan better, say this city has a missionary or two, so why not put the next missionary in the next city. Imagine the influence of our churches if we had 2 or 3 large churches in a major city, instead of 40 churches of 20 people.

Yet of course, we can't fellowship with the next church, well because they have tv's, or our sleeves are longer than theirs. And we cant come together in unity, because someone would have to be an associate/asst pastor, instead of senior pastor. And God forbid if anyone give up thier place as superintendent or other posistions.

So we pine away, one split after another. We as a movement are surviving, but not thriving. And why? Has the power of God left? No. But we have decided who is God's church and who isn't.

I have never been to or even heard of a service, meeting, conference or campmeeting that was put together for the purpose of apostolics coming together for woship and unity.

I live in texas, and can testify it would be amazing if any of these things happened here. (On an unrelated thought, when did camp meeting become a social fashion party?) Can you imagine a conference that was UPC, ALJC, PAW, AWCF, and independents. It would have to be held in a stadium, certainly would be in Lufkin. Or even an area where 3 small churches pulled together to make 1 fairly strong and noticable church?

Yet from what I can gather, everyone is worried about what this person/group believes about holiness, modesty, tithing, sabbath, etc.

I say (perhaps in ignorance) that we should concentrate on the common denominator, that is our fundamental apostolic doctrine o the oneness of God, baptism in Jesus name, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost. for by One Spirit we are all baptized into One Body.

Sounds great. Most people on here would be for it, but it will never happen. Too many egos and too many legalistic thinkers. The more liberal sided people would be ALL for it, but some on the conservative side might not be for it. Many times as I am sure you know the more conservative people tend to marginalize the more liberal as being lost, backsliders, or whatever term you could insert. I do join with you and agree that inorder for truth world change to happen we have to join forces, but it seems forces are against it.

TRFrance
03-07-2008, 08:21 PM
I say (perhaps in ignorance) that we should concentrate on the common denominator, that is our fundamental apostolic doctrine o the oneness of God, baptism in Jesus name, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost. for by One Spirit we are all baptized into One Body.

Not ignorance, brother, but perhaps idealism and naivete. We've all had those "cant we all just get along?" thoughts before. But realistically, the unity you're thinking of will probably never happen.

The walls between the apostolic groups are so firmly and deeply entrenched, that it would take a mighty move of God to bring them down... and I'm just not really expecting that to happen.

Among the "walls" (that are unlikely to be overcome) are differences in beliefs on:

*women preachers,
*marriage/divorce/remarriage,
*dress standards,
*jewelry,
*television (watching it...and using it for ministry),
*fellowshipping with Trinitarians
... and a whole lot more.

OneAccord
03-07-2008, 08:21 PM
I think you right. The problem is however, we seem to have a problem coming to any consensus of the basics. You answered most of your questions already. There is entirely too much division, but what you gonna do? I think, and this is just my own toake on things...we just love to fuss. Fussing has become so normal to us that we feel like we're backslid if a fuss don't come up every two or three days.

I don't know- I've talked a lot about unity here but, it goes out the window. But I do remember in Florida once, someone organized a statewide fellowship meeting. It was held in Gainsville at an auditorim. What a sight that was. That place was packed with Apostolic believers from all over the state. And what a service! Sadly, we've become too plarized in our doctrines, in our organizations to seee something like that done today.

You on to something, Brother. It would be great-

By the way, welcome to the Forum!

Sam
03-07-2008, 08:29 PM
...
Among the "walls" (that are unlikely to be overcome) are differences in beliefs on:

*women preachers,
*marriage/divorce/remarriage,
*dress standards,
*jewelry,
*television (watching it...and using it for ministry),
*fellowshipping with Trinitarians
... and a whole lot more.

All those differences already exist within the UPC

Sam
03-07-2008, 08:35 PM
There is an organization called the UACoJC (United Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ). It is a small organization but has several churches in Indiana and some others in other states. They have monthly fellowship meetings in Indiana. I've never been to any but keep thinking I'll get there some time to one that is close to where I live in Ohio. It is my understanding that these fellowship meetings are attended by folks who are not in the UACoJC. Bishop Howard of New Castle, IN was part of the group who created this organization. He used to have fellowship meetings that were not limited to any specific organization.

The website for the UACoJC is
http://uac-jc.org/home.php

Sam
03-07-2008, 08:39 PM
1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
2 It is like the precious ointment poured on the head, that ran down on the beard, even the beard of Aaron [the first high priest], that came down upon the collar and skirts of his garments [consecrating the whole body].
3 It is like the dew of [lofty] Mount Hermon and the dew that comes on the hills of Zion; for there the Lord has commanded the blessing, even life forevermore [upon the high and the lowly].
Psalm 133:1-3 from the Amplified Bible

Scott Hutchinson
03-07-2008, 08:40 PM
I think one probelm is that many people make salvational issues out of things that are not salvational.We need to focus on things that are essential and biblical and don't need to make things Thus Saith The Lord that The Lord didn't thus say.

Jack Shephard
03-07-2008, 08:42 PM
1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!2 It is like the precious ointment poured on the head, that ran down on the beard, even the beard of Aaron [the first high priest], that came down upon the collar and skirts of his garments [consecrating the whole body].
3 It is like the dew of [lofty] Mount Hermon and the dew that comes on the hills of Zion; for there the Lord has commanded the blessing, even life forevermore [upon the high and the lowly].
Psalm 133:1-3 from the Amplified Bible

The bold part-is how many see it accept that most men/women only unify with people that believe exactly the same as them. As you and I well know there are friends of our that were once part of the ALJC that once they left they were treated as no longer being unified. They became out cast as it were. There was someone that said UNITY is 'U-N-I-Tied' together. Unity is nice to think about seldom obtained.

Sam
03-07-2008, 08:47 PM
In the first verses of 1 Corinthians chapter 3 the Apostle Paul spoke of divisions in the church. He said that they were carnal because of their divisions. I think this could also apply to our divisions based on organization, following a popular preacher/leader, etc.

Here are verses one through nine from the New King James Version:

1 Corinthians 3

Sectarianism Is Carnal

1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

Watering, Working, Warning

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building.

Jason B
03-07-2008, 08:52 PM
The bold part-is how many see it accept that most men/women only unify with people that believe exactly the same as them.

The statement is largly true, but as Sam said the upc has plenty of divestity. Yet why they/we (I'm in UPC) don't stretch this tolerance beyond three letters of an acronym i don't know.

Sam
03-07-2008, 09:00 PM
Don't ya'll realize the UPC is the only true church?

It's found in the Bible, Acts chapter 2, plain as can be for all who want to see.

In verse one it says that they were all with one accord (that's United) on the day of Pentecost (that's Pentecostal) and then in verse 47 it talks about God adding to the church (so there we find the church). See, Acts chapter 2 we find the United Pentecostal Church, and don't you forget it.

Remember at General Conference when we would all stand and sing together


The reason I'm in this Church
is I don't want to be lost.
God's only got one Church
it's United Pentecost.
The reason I'm in this Church
is I don't want to be lost.
No, I don't want to be lost.

RandyWayne
03-07-2008, 09:12 PM
The reason I'm in this Church
is I don't want to be lost.
God's only got one Church
it's United Pentecost.
The reason I'm in this Church
is I don't want to be lost.
No, I don't want to be lost.

Now you need to add a verse for the ladies about not bobbing their hair. :)

Jason B
03-07-2008, 09:13 PM
Not ignorance, brother, but perhaps idealism and naivete. We've all had those "cant we all just get along?" thoughts before. But realistically, the unity you're thinking of will probably never happen.

The walls between the apostolic groups are so firmly and deeply entrenched, that it would take a mighty move of God to bring them down... and I'm just not really expecting that to happen.



I agree with you to a point, i don't see this happening real soon, but i do believe it is going to happen somehow. I do believe that God is going to unify his church in a unity of the spirit in the last days.

Perhaps I have spent to much time thinking about it, but I am not suggesting doing away with orginzations in favor of one unified body, although that would be ideal, tht would really have to be God. I am wondering allowed why the current orginazations and fellowships can't keep their cards, structure an officers, yet have fellowship and other co-operation with other oneness bodies. For example I spoke with JL Hall one time about the ALJC, and he said that at one time there were discussions of the ALJC joining the UPC. When those discussion broke down on basis of the adam doctrine, UPC basically has nothing to do with ALJC. I don't understand why the cant get together and say (I'll use USA as example, because I am not familiar enough with cities in other countries) "okay, we already have 3 upc missionaries in dallas, and PAW has 2 missionaries, so we have that field covered, lets send the next missionary to Fort Worth. It's not as big as Dallas, but the potentiel for a great church is there. What we currently have is every organization wants to have a missionary in a major/capital city. So we have who knows how many missionaries in say Mexico City, but yet several (as my understanding is) large cities in mexio have no missionary. How does this make good sense? I'm not saying 1 missionary per city, that is foolish for a large city, but I'm saying, until we spread out our growth will be limited. I'm not concerned with growth, but how to spread the gospel. As Jesus said,( i paraphrase) "this gospel shall be preached in the whole earth, THEN shall the end come."

Even if our current generation doesn't understand the importance of this, the younger gereation is seeing how we are hampered by being more and more sectarian. hopefully we will attain a unity of the Spirit in the years to come.

I've got a feeling when the antichrist is in power if we are shipped off to be put to death, we are not going to be asking the person next to us "do you have a tv? or "do you trim your hair?" The time we waste, now is the day!

Cindy
03-07-2008, 09:24 PM
What are the ones complaining about the UPC doing to invite UPC to fellowship instead of blaming them as the only reason apostolics cannot be united.

TRFrance
03-08-2008, 06:40 AM
What are the ones complaining about the UPC doing to invite UPC to fellowship instead of blaming them as the only reason apostolics cannot be united.

So true.
And there are some on this forum who seem to take every opportunity they can to "get their digs in" at the UPC, even when its not even called for.

I find it kinda pathetic, actually.

robert
03-08-2008, 06:58 AM
Don't ya'll realize the UPC is the only true church?

It's found in the Bible, Acts chapter 2, plain as can be for all who want to see.

In verse one it says that they were all with one accord (that's United) on the day of Pentecost (that's Pentecostal) and then in verse 47 it talks about God adding to the church (so there we find the church). See, Acts chapter 2 we find the United Pentecostal Church, and don't you forget it.

Remember at General Conference when we would all stand and sing together


The reason I'm in this Church
is I don't want to be lost.
God's only got one Church
it's United Pentecost.
The reason I'm in this Church
is I don't want to be lost.
No, I don't want to be lost.

There is only One church...that church consist of people who follow and live God's word. Not everyone in the world will have a United Pentecostal Church in their area to attend. We can recieve a Bible and recieve God's Spirit...because Nothing is impossible for God. This thought that only one organization can be right is WRONG. It appears from what I've seen at the AFF that one mind and one accord is not required to be saved. We should be uniting but not to form one organization but one mind and one accord...then we can see the Acts chapter 2 Revival.

chseeads
03-08-2008, 07:09 AM
There is an organization called the UACoJC (United Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ). It is a small organization but has several churches in Indiana and some others in other states. They have monthly fellowship meetings in Indiana. I've never been to any but keep thinking I'll get there some time to one that is close to where I live in Ohio. It is my understanding that these fellowship meetings are attended by folks who are not in the UACoJC. Bishop Howard of New Castle, IN was part of the group who created this organization. He used to have fellowship meetings that were not limited to any specific organization.

The website for the UACoJC is
http://uac-jc.org/home.php


Most people that go are from the UACJC churches, but it's open to anybody....which as far as that goes, so are UPC and etc. rallies. A lot of times only birds with the same-colored feathers will flock together though....

StillStanding
03-08-2008, 07:22 AM
For the record, I'm fer Apostolic Unity! :thumbsup

The problem starts because the conservative branch will feel like they're COMPROMISING to associate themselves with liberals and moderates. Those libs might as well be Trinnies as far as they're concerned!

Apostolics tend to look at the small picture with tunnel vision, instead of the big picture. IMHO

OneAccord
03-08-2008, 07:23 AM
Jason-

In the Deep Waters section, you'll find a thread about The Unity of the Faith. I posted a 4 part series about UNity- Its pretty long, but it details my views about the subject.

I believe a revival of restoration (i'll call it) is coming to God's people. A Revival of Unity that will transcend organizations. I don't know how, and don't know when, but its imperative for our survival as a people of faith.

Unity is a subject that doesn't get much attention.

scotty
03-08-2008, 07:31 AM
So true.
And there are some on this forum who seem to take every opportunity they can to "get their digs in" at the UPC, even when its not even called for.

I find it kinda pathetic, actually.

thank you,

Even churches within the UPC are not the same. I am seeing alot of churches in our district making a swing both back to conservative views and yet more liberal in fellowship and bringing in the lost.

Its our job to get them in the church, how they live or what "standards" they live by is between them and God. Its not our job to tell them what they should or shouldn't be doing. The Holy Ghost will do that. In the meantime they are brothers and sisters in the Lord.

So will someone again please tell me what is wrong with UPC?

OneAccord
03-08-2008, 07:34 AM
A portion of the post on "The Unity of the Faith" - in the Deep Waters Section .

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

We’ve tried everything else. Resolutions, affirmations, by-laws, creeds, organizations. But, honestly, what of those things has brought even a measure of unity? In 1945, a brother, writing by inspiration coined a phrase that brought together two relatively small groups into one world wide organization. Now those immortal words are all but lost to history. ‘We shall endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit until we all come into the unity of the faith, at the same time admonishing all brethren that they shall not contend for their different views to the disunity of the Body‘. Those words, inspired from the very pages of the Bible, should be written on the heart of everyone who is filled with God’s Spirit. L.R Oorten said, “There is no greater need among Spirit-filled children of God today than the unity of the Spirit”. These are not the words of one organization or group. These words were the words of men whose very hearts were set ablaze by the fires of the baptism of the Holy Ghost, who yearned for the day when they could stand shoulder to shoulder in fellowship and unity. The word UNITY stands out boldly in both statements, for if UNITY could bring two doctrinally diverse groups together into spiritual harmony, can not the spirit behind those words bring us all together as ONE IN CHRIST?

To do so, however requires a great number of things, one might think. Not so. It requires but one. 2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Our spiritual landscape will be healed of its fractures, if we’ll but answer the call to pray and humble ourselves before God. The dry and barren land of our churches would be restored to the former glory if we’d but turn from our divisions and doctrinal quarreling and move with God’s Spirit to the UNITY that we can only find in Him. Our strife, our animosity would be swept away by a fresh, invigorating out-pouring of the Holy Ghost.

deltaguitar
03-08-2008, 08:01 AM
thank you,

Even churches within the UPC are not the same. I am seeing alot of churches in our district making a swing both back to conservative views and yet more liberal in fellowship and bringing in the lost.

Its our job to get them in the church, how they live or what "standards" they live by is between them and God. Its not our job to tell them what they should or shouldn't be doing. The Holy Ghost will do that. In the meantime they are brothers and sisters in the Lord.

So will someone again please tell me what is wrong with UPC?


This is good. Many churches aren't afraid to get outside their walls and this is great. Great things are happening in the UPC. Personally, I feel the UPC will make a turn toward the left in the next decade or so in order to reach the lost.

A_PoMo
03-08-2008, 08:17 AM
I remember Jim Larson in Indy tried to organize a city-wide evangelistic crusade with other "apostolic" pastors in the area. He wanted to bring a big gun preacher, rent out the big convention center downtown, have all the churches contribute and all the churches would divide the spoils equally depending on the geographical location of where the new people lived. It never flew. None of the other pastors would cooperate.

I remember asking KHaney about why this sort of thing wouldn't work. He chuckled and said it'd never work because most pastors are not evangelistic minded enough to want to do it.

deltaguitar
03-08-2008, 08:30 AM
I remember Jim Larson in Indy tried to organize a city-wide evangelistic crusade with other "apostolic" pastors in the area. He wanted to bring a big gun preacher, rent out the big convention center downtown, have all the churches contribute and all the churches would divide the spoils equally depending on the geographical location of where the new people lived. It never flew. None of the other pastors would cooperate.

I remember asking KHaney about why this sort of thing wouldn't work. He chuckled and said it'd never work because most pastors are not evangelistic minded enough to want to do it.

Well, someone has to get the credit and cooperation usually means less credit for those involved.

A_PoMo
03-08-2008, 08:41 AM
Somebody has to be the leader and cast the vision and marshall the resources. How can that be avoided?

In JL's case, as I remember it, he was willing to stand in the background and allow all the pastors to equally participate in the services and present the effort as a group effort and not put himself or his church up front. I always thought that was pretty generous, especially considering it was JL.

Sam
03-08-2008, 10:06 AM
I remember Jim Larson in Indy tried to organize a city-wide evangelistic crusade with other "apostolic" pastors in the area. He wanted to bring a big gun preacher, rent out the big convention center downtown, have all the churches contribute and all the churches would divide the spoils equally depending on the geographical location of where the new people lived. It never flew. None of the other pastors would cooperate.

I remember asking KHaney about why this sort of thing wouldn't work. He chuckled and said it'd never work because most pastors are not evangelistic minded enough to want to do it.

I remember a meeting at the Convention Center in downtown Cincinnati back in 1969 or so when Apostolics from several organizations met. I thought it was neat but I've always been an "ecumaniac." I don't remember any follow up meetings.

I've been to some fellowship meetings in Cincinnati that turned into "battleship" meetings with people storming off the platform and out the door in a huff because there was a dispute about "women preachers" or how someone had prayed and ministered to the sick by calling them out and diagnosing their problems. These were attended by preachers from a couple of small organizations and independents (but not UPC.)

Ron
03-08-2008, 10:14 AM
thank you,

Even churches within the UPC are not the same. I am seeing alot of churches in our district making a swing both back to conservative views and yet more liberal in fellowship and bringing in the lost.

Its our job to get them in the church, how they live or what "standards" they live by is between them and God. Its not our job to tell them what they should or shouldn't be doing. The Holy Ghost will do that. In the meantime they are brothers and sisters in the Lord.

So will someone again please tell me what is wrong with UPC?


It like any Organization, no more, no less.

Trouble is, I think some have bitterness & won't move on.

JMHO Though.

Jason B
03-08-2008, 08:15 PM
So true.
And there are some on this forum who seem to take every opportunity they can to "get their digs in" at the UPC, even when its not even called for.

I find it kinda pathetic, actually.

who is bashing upc? im upc, but all i'm saying is we have the influence and numbers to do something along the lines of major apostolic unity, and we are dropping the ball. Our leaders will only accept unity under the auspecies of another organiation becoming upc, not just having common fellowship.

i want to see upc thrive, but we need to have more effort for unity.

Jason B
03-08-2008, 08:16 PM
Jason-

In the Deep Waters section, you'll find a thread about The Unity of the Faith. I posted a 4 part series about UNity- Its pretty long, but it details my views about the subject.

I believe a revival of restoration (i'll call it) is coming to God's people. A Revival of Unity that will transcend organizations. I don't know how, and don't know when, but its imperative for our survival as a people of faith.

Unity is a subject that doesn't get much attention.

cool , i'll check it out soon

scotty
03-08-2008, 08:30 PM
who is bashing upc? im upc, but all i'm saying is we have the influence and numbers to do something along the lines of major apostolic unity, and we are dropping the ball. Our leaders will only accept unity under the auspecies of another organiation becoming upc, not just having common fellowship.

i want to see upc thrive, but we need to have more effort for unity.

Hang around , if you haven't seen it yet , you will

either way like I said , as far as my district is concerned we are reaching out....Remember , the UPC did not remove those who are split, they left on their own...

Jason B
03-09-2008, 10:54 PM
Jason-

In the Deep Waters section, you'll find a thread about The Unity of the Faith. I posted a 4 part series about UNity- Its pretty long, but it details my views about the subject.

I believe a revival of restoration (i'll call it) is coming to God's people. A Revival of Unity that will transcend organizations. I don't know how, and don't know when, but its imperative for our survival as a people of faith.

Unity is a subject that doesn't get much attention.

I can't find it, like i said I'm new, is there a link you can post?

Sister Alvear
03-09-2008, 10:56 PM
I too believe a revival of restoration that will come to God´s people.

OneAccord
03-10-2008, 12:12 AM
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=12994

Bro-Larry
03-10-2008, 08:08 AM
I think one problem is that many people make salvational issues out of things that are not salvational.We need to focus on things that are essential and biblical and don't need to make things Thus Saith The Lord that The Lord didn't thus say.

Ageed, Bro Scott, but who are going to be the ones to decide what is salvational and what is not? Who is going to give up their own salvational doctrines?

A Utopian View of the Christ Body at large might be that everyone keep their own ideas but also tolerate and fellowship everyone else......except???? the trinitites, the TVites, the Hooverites, Catholicites, the Baptistoes, the Libitarians, the Dualitarians, the URarians, the Preteristos, the AOGites, the AG Harristites, the Epleyites, the Bro-Larites, .......and on and on it goes.

Isn't most everyone afraid that what others believe will defile them?

Bro-Larry
03-10-2008, 08:19 AM
Jason-

In the Deep Waters section, you'll find a thread about The Unity of the Faith. I posted a 4 part series about UNity- Its pretty long, but it details my views about the subject.

I believe a revival of restoration (i'll call it) is coming to God's people. A Revival of Unity that will transcend organizations. I don't know how, and don't know when, but its imperative for our survival as a people of faith.

Unity is a subject that doesn't get much attention.

I believe you are right (see bolded) Bro OA, but will it take CJ's refiner's fire to get it done?

Bro-Larry
03-10-2008, 08:25 AM
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It is what it is, Bro Scotty. It is what it is.

Sister Alvear
03-10-2008, 08:40 AM
like anything else ...the human factor...

crakjak
03-10-2008, 09:04 AM
like anything else ...the human factor...

That's right sister, we could all get the work of God done, IF we didn't have to deal with PEOPLE, couldn't we??? lol

crakjak
03-10-2008, 09:11 AM
Ageed, Bro Scott, but who are going to be the ones to decide what is salvational and what is not? Who is going to give up their own salvational doctrines?

A Utopian View of the Christ Body at large might be that everyone keep their own ideas but also tolerate and fellowship everyone else......except???? the trinitites, the TVites, the Hooverites, Catholicites, the Baptistoes, the Libitarians, the Dualitarians, the URarians, the Preteristos, the AOGites, the AG Harristites, the Epleyites, the Bro-Larites, .......and on and on it goes.

Isn't most everyone afraid that what others believe will defile them?

Most are unwilling to forfeit their traditions, therefore the "gospel of reconciliation" is not heard, therefore the masses languish in the broadway headlong to the refining fire. God isn't angry, He WAS in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself!!!! It is finished, therefore enter into LIFE.

Sister Alvear
03-10-2008, 09:18 AM
Oh, Crakjak...you forgot the alvearites...ha...

Sister Alvear
03-10-2008, 09:20 AM
think of all those organizations we could start...

Bro-Larry
03-10-2008, 01:48 PM
Oh, Crakjak...you forgot the alvearites...ha...

Have you ever wondered where in the world he came up with that username?

crakjak
03-10-2008, 05:49 PM
Oh, Crakjak...you forgot the alvearites...ha...

That was Bro. Larry, sister, he's getting old it just slipped his mind! LOL

crakjak
03-10-2008, 05:50 PM
Have you ever wondered where in the world he came up with that username?

You crack'em and we'll jack'em! :gaga lol

Jason B
04-04-2009, 11:49 AM
I am new to this board, so please pardon me if you all have discussed this before.

I am at a total loss why we apostolics tend to be divisive and reclusive as a movement. What could we do and how could we affect to world, if we had a real apostolic fellowship? Instead of putting UPC missionaries basically in competition with ALJC missionaries and PAW missionaries, we could plan better, say this city has a missionary or two, so why not put the next missionary in the next city. Imagine the influence of our churches if we had 2 or 3 large churches in a major city, instead of 40 churches of 20 people.

Yet of course, we can't fellowship with the next church, well because they have tv's, or our sleeves are longer than theirs. And we cant come together in unity, because someone would have to be an associate/asst pastor, instead of senior pastor. And God forbid if anyone give up thier place as superintendent or other posistions.

So we pine away, one split after another. We as a movement are surviving, but not thriving. And why? Has the power of God left? No. But we have decided who is God's church and who isn't.

I have never been to or even heard of a service, meeting, conference or campmeeting that was put together for the purpose of apostolics coming together for woship and unity.

I live in texas, and can testify it would be amazing if any of these things happened here. (On an unrelated thought, when did camp meeting become a social fashion party?) Can you imagine a conference that was UPC, ALJC, PAW, AWCF, and independents. It would have to be held in a stadium, certainly wouldn't be in Lufkin. Or even an area where 3 small churches pulled together to make 1 fairly strong and noticable church?

Yet from what I can gather, everyone is worried about what this person/group believes about holiness, modesty, tithing, sabbath, etc.

I say (perhaps in ignorance) that we should concentrate on the common denominator, that is our fundamental apostolic doctrine o the oneness of God, baptism in Jesus name, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost. for by One Spirit we are all baptized into One Body.

bump

CAD/JPY
04-04-2009, 04:19 PM
I personally believe that that the key to every city... you know the one we all pray for? The HUGE revival, the incredible move of God that takes place! We'll I believe that comes in a package.... a package that is made up of many churches.

Therefore, the conservative pastor will need the liberal pastor and vice versa... because they each have a portion of "the Key". But until they get together IN UNITY the pieces of the key can't form... and their city remains locked up.

Why don't they get together? Some of it is pride, worried about what others will think of you if you fellowship. Some of it is fear. If your a conservative pastor, how do you answer the questions from your young people after they have "hung out" or "dated" some of the young people from the liberal church??

"Uh Pastor, I thought we couldn't go to movies? The other church does... and we all get together for big Apostolic meetings." "Uh Pastor, :sad I was just told you go to hell because I cut my hair... thats what the girls from the other youth group said... Pastor, am I going to hell?"

There is a lot of issues that arise during fellowship. Imagine, seeing your "liberal" pastor having a heart to heart discussion with your music minister prior to the big Apostolic meeting. Smiling, nodding, etc. Now, what if you the conservative pastor know that your music minister doesn't necessarily believe things as conservative as you, but just does it out of respect... How would you feel about the current conversation with the "more liberal" pastor? What conclusions would be natural to jump to? What fears?

Okay, now that you see some of the issues that result.... Here is the only way they get dealt with. Those pastors need to work HARD on keeping personal relationships going, so that they will trust each other. Be honorable! Show each other respect and integrity! Call your neighboring pastor if one of his saints show up to visit on Sunday... and ask him what is going on, does he know? Make a point of connecting every week!

It sounds easy, but it really isn't. Then throw in the mix of different holiness standards, pastoral styles, upbringing, etc. and you can see why that key doesn't often get put together. So this is why you don't see some very logical things take place in our apostolic movement....

Jason B
04-04-2009, 07:45 PM
I personally believe that that the key to every city... you know the one we all pray for? The HUGE revival, the incredible move of God that takes place! We'll I believe that comes in a package.... a package that is made up of many churches.

Therefore, the conservative pastor will need the liberal pastor and vice versa... because they each have a portion of "the Key". But until they get together IN UNITY the pieces of the key can't form... and their city remains locked up.
Why don't they get together? Some of it is pride, worried about what others will think of you if you fellowship. Some of it is fear. If your a conservative pastor, how do you answer the questions from your young people after they have "hung out" or "dated" some of the young people from the liberal church??

"Uh Pastor, I thought we couldn't go to movies? The other church does... and we all get together for big Apostolic meetings." "Uh Pastor, :sad I was just told you go to hell because I cut my hair... thats what the girls from the other youth group said... Pastor, am I going to hell?"

There is a lot of issues that arise during fellowship. Imagine, seeing your "liberal" pastor having a heart to heart discussion with your music minister prior to the big Apostolic meeting. Smiling, nodding, etc. Now, what if you the conservative pastor know that your music minister doesn't necessarily believe things as conservative as you, but just does it out of respect... How would you feel about the current conversation with the "more liberal" pastor? What conclusions would be natural to jump to? What fears?

Okay, now that you see some of the issues that result.... Here is the only way they get dealt with. Those pastors need to work HARD on keeping personal relationships going, so that they will trust each other. Be honorable! Show each other respect and integrity! Call your neighboring pastor if one of his saints show up to visit on Sunday... and ask him what is going on, does he know? Make a point of connecting every week!

It sounds easy, but it really isn't. Then throw in the mix of different holiness standards, pastoral styles, upbringing, etc. and you can see why that key doesn't often get put together. So this is why you don't see some very logical things take place in our apostolic movement....


good post, I think the problem is we really need to go strictly by the Bible and not by personal convictions, remebering Christ didn't come and die a horrible death just to find a reason to condemn someone to hell over a sleeve length or any number of ridulous things that we have in the past put on people who did or would have come to Christ, only for them to be gone as quickly as they came.