Lets Get Ready to RuMbLE!! HANEY Vs. URSHAN!!!

[Carpenter]

I was thinking after reading several posts and threads and I don't believe there has been a discussion on the differences between the two GSs of our generation. Brother Urshan held the scepter during some of the most difinitive times of the UPC, while Brother Haney is still trying to define his administration and legacy.

I am wondering what does/did Urshan have that Haney does not and vice versa.

I know for a fact that during the Urshan administration, the UPC had definition and objectivity, perhaps fueled by the 1992 AS, but nevertheless, I think after he passed from the scene, that is when the lines of the UPC became very fuzzy.

...and I am only sitting watching and listening for things from the peanut gallery.

I think a definition here goes beyond a comparison between the two men, I believe it carries the weight of the state of the organization as well.

[Barb]

I was thinking after reading several posts and threads and I don't believe there has been a discussion on the differences between the two GSs of our generation. Brother Urshan held the scepter during some of the most difinitive times of the UPC, while Brother Haney is still trying to define his administration and legacy.

I am wondering what does/did Urshan have that Haney does not and vice versa.

I know for a fact that during the Urshan administration, the UPC had definition and objectivity, perhaps fueled by the 1992 AS, but nevertheless, I think after he passed from the scene, that is when the lines of the UPC became very fuzzy.

...and I am only sitting watching and listening for things from the peanut gallery.

I think a definition here goes beyond a comparison between the two men, I believe it carries the weight of the state of the organization as well.

Yes, I agree...good thread starter, Carp...

When I return from work tonight, this thread should be a wealth of great insight...

[Coonskinner]

Carp,

You raise some good points, but I don't think there is any way to fairly compare Urshan and Haney, and more than you can compare Sammy Sosa to The Babe.

It's a different game.

Nathaniel Urshan was definitely a man with charisma and clout, a leader with a personality as big as a Mack truck.

He had a degree of influence that I doubt we will ever see replicated in a General Superintendent.

Some of this is because of the change in our society, and some of it is because we had a man like him for so long. :)

Leadership seems to run in cycles. People usually want something different than what they have had.

One of the big problems I see is exactly what you named--lack of clear direction and definition.

This isn't altogether Brother Haney's fault, either.

[Felicity]

I feel that the the UPC started to lose its focus and definition and had started to flounder a bit before the AS and definitely before Bro. Haney became GS. Bro. Urshan for me pretty much defines the UPC because he became GS just a year or 2 after we started ministry.

I remember making the statement several times during the last several years we were in the UPC that I felt the organization was like a big ship kind of floundering around in the ocean with no real direction or purpose. That was my feeling anyhow.

I think the distinctions between Bro. Haney and Bro. Urshan - the personalities and leadership styles are fairly obvious although I never knew Bro. Haney as well as Bro. Urshan. Definitely Bro.Urshan had more charisma and I think definitely more confidence as well.

[The Antagonist]

The weight of personality, strong convictions, and remarkable minds and leadership skills maked the difference between the two.

Nathaniel Urshan was a colorful character seen often in his rhetoric, dress (loved those colorful shoes) and the emphasis that he placed upon his convictions. His ability to garner consensus was unlike any other, mostly due to his excellent use of personality and history. Very often, in board meetings and conferences and other official settings, he would lecture his listeners in history of the Apostolic movement, establishing with the Word his conviction for the thing that he sought consensus. His weight of personality ususally won out.

I don't believe that Bro Haney has learned this technique as well as the Old battle hardened pro whose immediate ancestry predated Azusa Street in the same fashion that Bro Haney's did through Clyde Haney.

There is also a marked difference in the two men's experiences that molded them for the office that they occupy/occupied. Urshan was tested early as a young man when he assumed the pastorate of Calvary Tab, by his predecessor, Raymond Hoekstra. Long story there. Needless to say, he was molded in the furnace of affliction that well equipped him for leadership through tried and tested principles.

Both men traveled widely and spoke in many great gatherings before great congregations but he never appeared as long, often or before the many great gatherings that would have afforded him the notoriety and acceptance that Urshan gained over the many years. So, going into office, Urshan was the heavy weight from the start, both in approval, and in force of personality...loved those colorful shoes, especially the white ones. To me, those shoes reflected an inward flare of personality that was seen by everyone that knew him.

Most great leaders have a "stick" either knowingly or unknowingly. In the case of Urshan, that stick was his flash of personality clothed with humility and anointing. In Haney, we have a much milder personality, (though greatly anointed) which force does not command the type leadership, inspiration of imagination and consensus building as did the Persian.

Bro. Haney in as fine of a man as can be found anywhere but his test is yet ahead of him. His leadership ability, his consensus building and inspiration of the UPCI psyche is just ahead, in the coming great test. He is yet to be proven. His legacy will rise or fall on the events of the immediate future. If there is fire in his belly as was so great in the Persian's, he will rise to the challenge.

This is no time for the bland uniformity of the penguin look alike sameness. He must distinguish himself by the anointing of the Holy Ghost manifested in his own human character that is unique to HIM alone.

It is yet to be seen.

[Coonskinner]

I'm telling Chan.

He doesn't believe in personalities.

[Annie]

The huge difference that I see from where I am standing is,

Bro. Haney has no Jean Urshan for a wife!!!!!

[SDG]

Simply... Urshan had presence and charisma. He was the UPCI.

Haney never defined himself ... he's simply the headliner at big events.

[revrandy]

I think it's much to early to try to compare the two....
Let Bro. Haney preside 20+ years then define them..

But we all know that won't happen...

[Malvaro]

Haney never defined himself ... he's simply the headliner at big events.

don't you think this statement is a bit disrespectful???

[revrandy]

Simply... Urshan had presence and charisma. He was the UPCI.

Haney never defined himself ... he's simply the headliner at big events.

Dan..

I guess pastoring one of the largest churches for 25+ in the UPC is not good enough for you....

this is a comment from the Nose bleed section..

[SDG]

don't you think this statement is a bit disrespectful???

No.

[SDG]

Dan..

I guess pastoring one of the largest churches for 25+ in the UPC is not good enough for you....

this is a comment from the Nose bleed section..

He is indeed a great pastor ... he is sorely missed and needed at CLC ... as I understand it ...

As for exerting influence in the org ... you tell me ... if he does???

[Esther]

don't you think this statement is a bit disrespectful???

I have to agree. :grampa

[revrandy]

He is indeed a great pastor ... he is sorely missed and needed at CLC ... as I understand it ...

As for exerting influence in the org ... you tell me ... if he does???

Dan..

There have been some major changes at the helm of the UPC... a lot of folks like Bro. Haney and a lot dislike him. You would have to understand his personality to know him....

Most of the likes and dislikes have to idealology tho vs. personality... Television adverstisement being the heavy hitter...

[The Antagonist]

He is indeed a great pastor ... he is sorely missed and needed at CLC ... as I understand it ...

As for exerting influence in the org ... you tell me ... if he does???

The next year or two will be his defining moments of time.

[SDG]

Dan..

There have been some major changes at the helm of the UPC... a lot of folks like Bro. Haney and a lot dislike him. You would have to understand his personality to know him....

Most of the likes and dislikes have to idealology tho vs. personality... Television adverstisement being the heavy hitter...

I respect your opinions ... I think any changes were a natural progression in search of relevancy ... I have other thoughts about how much influence within the org he actually possesses.

[revrandy]

I respect your opinions ... I think any changes were a natural progression in search of relevancy ... I have other thoughts about how much influence within the org he actually possesses.

I think that influence takes time.... as was stated the next year or two will be his defining moments... one thing to note... I do NOT think he wants to be the Superintendant that divides us on Television.....Who would????

[SDG]

I think that influence takes time.... as was stated the next year or two will be his defining moments... one thing to note... I do NOT think he wants to be the Superintendant that divides us on Television.....Who would????

He should've defined the agenda ... on TV years ago ... great leader take the flak and lead. They don't leave it to chance and surveys. He had his chance to lead in this debate and has been very quiet.

If their is a split one might attribute it to passivity.

[revrandy]

He should've defined the agenda ... on TV years ago ... great leader take the flak and lead. They don't leave it to chance and surveys. He had his chance to lead in this debate and has been very quiet.

If their is a split one might attribute it to passivity.

Nope.... not passivity...but contention and polarization...try juggling those balls...

[tbpew]

so let me try to get the criteria for the comparative consideration this thread is proposing:

some are looking to the GS of a member-minister fellowship organization to stand on the front of the boat (bow?) and chart the course of the faithful 'rowers' behind him.

To expect that role for the GS, one would have to move from fellowship with a member-minister organization to a denomination.

IMO, a cooperative among independant agents is the overarching character of a member-minister fellowship. Why do we long for (or place our hopes in) something other than what we have chosen to continue to be a part of?

We either are denominal or we are not.

I believe Nathanial Urshan did not assert his views as any form of central governance, and certainly not as requirements for continued fellowship. The premise was established before him and he provided a point of continuity with "them that are without". His stature was as statesman; his family name was viewed as among the pioneers of "searching the spirit for life choices established in relationship with God"

Haney will do and is doing a very similar role within a set of organizational behaviors established within a framework of a member-minister fellowship.

If we want to raise up/anoint a king, or some very, very, special man, it will be paid for by what we give up in our individual calling and election in Christ.



If you want central vision commanding the forward advancement of the troops, join a denomination, engage the political machine, pay your dues and wait for your big chance.

[RevDWW]

I'm telling Chan.

He doesn't believe in personalities.

I like your sense of humor! :winkgrin

[Ferd]

one of the most dangerous attibutes a great leader has is a massive personality.

The danger comes when the leader is no longer the leader. Their presonality often leaves a hole that cannot be filled for any reason by anyone.

Some other man just as capable may be fully able to fill the shoes from a technical perspective but that personality thing becomes the defining thing.

We see this in many walks of life. the Post Regan era republican party has been in search for "Another Reagan" since 1988 but still has not found one.

The Devner Broncos are still looking for the next John Elway and still have not found one.

Brother Urshan was a masterful leader. I think Brother Haney has proven thru a lifetime of leadership in ministry that he is as well.

I dont think the problem is with either Brother Urshan or Brother Haney.

I think if there is any conflict or problem it is with us looking at brother Haney, defining the position he fills by Brother Urshan's PERSONALITY.

[RevDWW]

one of the most dangerous attibutes a great leader has is a massive personality.

The danger comes when the leader is no longer the leader. Their presonality often leaves a hole that cannot be filled for any reason by anyone.

Some other man just as capable may be fully able to fill the shoes from a technical perspective but that personality thing becomes the defining thing.

We see this in many walks of life. the Post Regan era republican party has been in search for "Another Reagan" since 1988 but still has not found one.

The Devner Broncos are still looking for the next John Elway and still have not found one.

Brother Urshan was a masterful leader. I think Brother Haney has proven thru a lifetime of leadership in ministry that he is as well.

I dont think the problem is with either Brother Urshan or Brother Haney.

I think if there is any conflict or problem it is with us looking at brother Haney, defining the position he fills by Brother Urshan's PERSONALITY.Good post!

[revrandy]

one of the most dangerous attibutes a great leader has is a massive personality.

The danger comes when the leader is no longer the leader. Their presonality often leaves a hole that cannot be filled for any reason by anyone.

Some other man just as capable may be fully able to fill the shoes from a technical perspective but that personality thing becomes the defining thing.

We see this in many walks of life. the Post Regan era republican party has been in search for "Another Reagan" since 1988 but still has not found one.

The Devner Broncos are still looking for the next John Elway and still have not found one.

Brother Urshan was a masterful leader. I think Brother Haney has proven thru a lifetime of leadership in ministry that he is as well.

I dont think the problem is with either Brother Urshan or Brother Haney.

I think if there is any conflict or problem it is with us looking at brother Haney, defining the position he fills by Brother Urshan's PERSONALITY.

Great Post!!!

[TRIPLE E]

Carp,

You raise some good points, but I don't think there is any way to fairly compare Urshan and Haney, and more than you can compare Sammy Sosa to The Babe.

It's a different game.

Nathaniel Urshan was definitely a man with charisma and clout, a leader with a personality as big as a Mack truck.

He had a degree of influence that I doubt we will ever see replicated in a General Superintendent.

Some of this is because of the change in our society, and some of it is because we had a man like him for so long. :)

Leadership seems to run in cycles. People usually want something different than what they have had.

One of the big problems I see is exactly what you named--lack of clear direction and definition.

This isn't altogether Brother Haney's fault, either.

I have to say that CS hit the nail on the head on this! there is such a difference between the generation of Pentecostals that Bro.Haney is trying to lead and the group as it was led by Bro.Urshan. I would say that today the Babyboomers make up a great majority of the church and their mindset is so much different from the previous generation.I do believe Bro.Haney is doing a great job so far,change is not always easy but it is sometimes necessary.

[Esther]

I have to say that CS hit the nail on the head on this! there is such a difference between the generation of Pentecostals that Bro.Haney is trying to lead and the group as it was led by Bro.Urshan. I would say that today the Babyboomers make up a great majority of the church and their mindset is so much different from the previous generation.I do believe Bro.Haney is doing a great job so far,change is not always easy but it is sometimes necessary.

I agree with you.:friend

[revrandy]

I have to say that CS hit the nail on the head on this! there is such a difference between the generation of Pentecostals that Bro.Haney is trying to lead and the group as it was led by Bro.Urshan. I would say that today the Babyboomers make up a great majority of the church and their mindset is so much different from the previous generation.I do believe Bro.Haney is doing a great job so far,change is not always easy but it is sometimes necessary.


And Change takes TIME.... you can't expect to see results immediatly...

[Neck]

I was thinking after reading several posts and threads and I don't believe there has been a discussion on the differences between the two GSs of our generation. Brother Urshan held the scepter during some of the most difinitive times of the UPC, while Brother Haney is still trying to define his administration and legacy.

I am wondering what does/did Urshan have that Haney does not and vice versa.

I know for a fact that during the Urshan administration, the UPC had definition and objectivity, perhaps fueled by the 1992 AS, but nevertheless, I think after he passed from the scene, that is when the lines of the UPC became very fuzzy.

...and I am only sitting watching and listening for things from the peanut gallery.

I think a definition here goes beyond a comparison between the two men, I believe it carries the weight of the state of the organization as well.

Urshan to me had presence. He spoke at my Father's funeral in 1978.

He also was connected to the beginnings by his Father Andrew Urshan.

Haney just had a big church at the time of his election...

Just my thoughts no strife intended.

[vrblackwell]

He should've defined the agenda ... on TV years ago ... great leader take the flak and lead. They don't leave it to chance and surveys. He had his chance to lead in this debate and has been very quiet.

If their is a split one might attribute it to passivity.


There will be no split. A splinter maybe, but not a split.

Both of these men are great men of God who deserve our respect. They however, are two different men, with two different personalities and no doubt different ideas and visions.

I think it is silly to compare their successes and failures. Times were a lot different when Bro. Urshan served then they are now. And I doubt that Bro. Haney will serve the length of time that Bro. Urshan served.

However, in future years I am confident that I will be able to look back and honor and respect both men for their great contributions to the kingdom of God. I will choose to respect them for their successes, as opposed to criticizing them for any failure as I would want the same mercy and kindness shown to me.

[Carpenter]

so let me try to get the criteria for the comparative consideration this thread is proposing:

some are looking to the GS of a member-minister fellowship organization to stand on the front of the boat (bow?) and chart the course of the faithful 'rowers' behind him.

To expect that role for the GS, one would have to move from fellowship with a member-minister organization to a denomination.

IMO, a cooperative among independant agents is the overarching character of a member-minister fellowship. Why do we long for (or place our hopes in) something other than what we have chosen to continue to be a part of?

We either are denominal or we are not.

I believe Nathanial Urshan did not assert his views as any form of central governance, and certainly not as requirements for continued fellowship. The premise was established before him and he provided a point of continuity with "them that are without". His stature was as statesman; his family name was viewed as among the pioneers of "searching the spirit for life choices established in relationship with God"

Haney will do and is doing a very similar role within a set of organizational behaviors established within a framework of a member-minister fellowship.

If we want to raise up/anoint a king, or some very, very, special man, it will be paid for by what we give up in our individual calling and election in Christ.



If you want central vision commanding the forward advancement of the troops, join a denomination, engage the political machine, pay your dues and wait for your big chance.

What? Are you kidding me? You need to go to the UPC website and order Brother Urshan's 1992 GC sermon.

I don't have the time to fully agree with you, I am going to have to come back in a while and do it in detail...

:D

[Pressing-On]

There will be no split. A splinter maybe, but not a split.

Both of these men are great men of God who deserve our respect. They however, are two different men, with two different personalities and no doubt different ideas and visions.

I think it is silly to compare their successes and failures. Times were a lot different when Bro. Urshan served then they are now. And I doubt that Bro. Haney will serve the length of time that Bro. Urshan served.

However, in future years I am confident that I will be able to look back and honor and respect both men for their great contributions to the kingdom of God. I will choose to respect them for their successes, as opposed to criticizing them for any failure as I would want the same mercy and kindness shown to me.
Excellent points, VB! There are some things about the organization I don't like, but I sure have always liked these two men!

[Monkeyman]

Urshan to me had presence. He spoke at my Father's funeral in 1978.

He also was connected to the beginnings by his Father Andrew Urshan.

Haney just had a big church at the time of his election...

Just my thoughts no strife intended.
Sorry bud, have to chime in here. Haney just....hmmmm. JUST took a small established church and made it a juggernaut in the community, state, district, and world. His reach JUST has been world-wide,from small churches built overseas, to Bible schools being helped, to JUST millions of dollars given to missions.
His business savvy JUST has made his financial legacy last.
His restoration ministry has JUST helped many who struggle get back on their feet and go back to their callings.
His mentoring ministry has JUST launched hundreds of Apostolic ministries around the globe.
Just....puh-leeeze, you and I would be lucky if we could JUST tie his shoes,
And that goes out to the rest of you arm-chair quarterbacks too...JUST, whatever!

[Monkeyman]

one of the most dangerous attibutes a great leader has is a massive personality.

The danger comes when the leader is no longer the leader. Their presonality often leaves a hole that cannot be filled for any reason by anyone.

Some other man just as capable may be fully able to fill the shoes from a technical perspective but that personality thing becomes the defining thing.

We see this in many walks of life. the Post Regan era republican party has been in search for "Another Reagan" since 1988 but still has not found one.

The Devner Broncos are still looking for the next John Elway and still have not found one.

Brother Urshan was a masterful leader. I think Brother Haney has proven thru a lifetime of leadership in ministry that he is as well.

I dont think the problem is with either Brother Urshan or Brother Haney.

I think if there is any conflict or problem it is with us looking at brother Haney, defining the position he fills by Brother Urshan's PERSONALITY.
:tiphat Great Ferd! You are one of the best!

[TRIPLE E]

There will be no split. A splinter maybe, but not a split.

Both of these men are great men of God who deserve our respect. They however, are two different men, with two different personalities and no doubt different ideas and visions.

I think it is silly to compare their successes and failures. Times were a lot different when Bro. Urshan served then they are now. And I doubt that Bro. Haney will serve the length of time that Bro. Urshan served.

However, in future years I am confident that I will be able to look back and honor and respect both men for their great contributions to the kingdom of God. I will choose to respect them for their successes, as opposed to criticizing them for any failure as I would want the same mercy and kindness shown to me.

Great Post my sentiments exactly!:tiphat

[Neck]

Sorry bud, have to chime in here. Haney just....hmmmm. JUST took a small established church and made it a juggernaut in the community, state, district, and world. His reach JUST has been world-wide,from small churches built overseas, to Bible schools being helped, to JUST millions of dollars given to missions.
His business savvy JUST has made his financial legacy last.
His restoration ministry has JUST helped many who struggle get back on their feet and go back to their callings.
His mentoring ministry has JUST launched hundreds of Apostolic ministries around the globe.
Just....puh-leeeze, you and I would be lucky if we could JUST tie his shoes,
And that goes out to the rest of you arm-chair quarterbacks too...JUST, whatever!

Correction to my point. My intentions were not about a lack of leadership or ability on the part of Bro. Haney.

My mention of him just having a large church.

Was to define the men who voted for him because he had a big church.

There are many great men who would never even get a token look.

I have seen men build large churches before and then go to another situation and bomb.

It takes the right folks around you to build anything....

My intentions also were to give the Late Nathaniel Urshan his just due.

his legacy and life have passed.

The book is still open on Bro. Haney.

I meant no disrespect.

This is a very hard thread to post on.

[Sweet Pea]

one of the most dangerous attibutes a great leader has is a massive personality.

The danger comes when the leader is no longer the leader. Their presonality often leaves a hole that cannot be filled for any reason by anyone.

Some other man just as capable may be fully able to fill the shoes from a technical perspective but that personality thing becomes the defining thing.

We see this in many walks of life. the Post Regan era republican party has been in search for "Another Reagan" since 1988 but still has not found one.

The Devner Broncos are still looking for the next John Elway and still have not found one.

Brother Urshan was a masterful leader. I think Brother Haney has proven thru a lifetime of leadership in ministry that he is as well.
I dont think the problem is with either Brother Urshan or Brother Haney.

I think if there is any conflict or problem it is with us looking at brother Haney, defining the position he fills by Brother Urshan's PERSONALITY.


Ferd, GREAT post! I totally agree with what is bolded in red. Unless you have worked with Kenneth Haney, you have no idea of the kind of leader the man is. And the man DOES have charisma - just not the same type as Brother Urshan.

Like someone else stated.... we will could never really compare the effect that Brother Haney could have had on this organization with the effect that Brother Urshan had because he will not be in office as long as Brother Urshan was. And that could be a good thing.... I for one (and I think many others) personally think that Brother Urshan stayed in office too long. That is not to take anything away from Brother Urshan - I highly respect the man - but new blood was needed long before Brother Haney was elected. JMHO. :tiphat

[Sweet Pea]

[/SIZE][/B]The huge difference that I see from where I am standing is,

Bro. Haney has no Jean Urshan for a wife!!!!!

No, Joy Haney is no Jean Urshan........... but you must not know Sister Haney very well if you think that is a bad thing! :tiphat

Maybe you're standing in balcony by the cheap seats and can't see too well! :toofunny

[Neck]

I was thinking after reading several posts and threads and I don't believe there has been a discussion on the differences between the two GSs of our generation. Brother Urshan held the scepter during some of the most difinitive times of the UPC, while Brother Haney is still trying to define his administration and legacy.

I am wondering what does/did Urshan have that Haney does not and vice versa.

I know for a fact that during the Urshan administration, the UPC had definition and objectivity, perhaps fueled by the 1992 AS, but nevertheless, I think after he passed from the scene, that is when the lines of the UPC became very fuzzy.

...and I am only sitting watching and listening for things from the peanut gallery.

I think a definition here goes beyond a comparison between the two men, I believe it carries the weight of the state of the organization as well.

My vote is the UPCI should limit the term of any new GS to 6 years. So the organization can move forward.

Nathan Eckstadt

[Carpenter]

I am certain, again, based on the most prolific sermons and leadership decisions made by Brother Urshan (especially as I mentioned the 1992 GC sermon), were undeniably conservative.

I am curious, was Brother Urshan more or less conservative that Brother Haney?

Did Brother Urshan represent a united constituency, or was the organization divided? Some may think this question to be rhetorical.

Is history repeating itself?

I am wondering what would have happened had Brother Haney been the G.S. during the affirmation statement saga???

It appears that history could indeed be repeating itself and it causes me to wonder that if there is an exodus comparable to 1992 given the TV issue, how will Brother Haney react compared with how Brother Urshan reacted.

I have seen and heard of Brother Haney coddling all sides, the ultra-conservatives, the moderates, and on some issues, the more liberal. Maybe this is a sign of a good leader, but I just don't see Brother Urshan doing that...right or wrong, good or bad.

This isn't to call either brother in contempt.

[Felicity]

I've enjoyed the posts and comments on this thread Carp. Glad you started it.

[Carpenter]

My vote is the UPCI should limit the term of any new GS to 6 years. So the organization can move forward.

Nathan Eckstadt

Some would say the organization was moving forward during the entire Urshan administration, most certainly longer than a 6 year period.

I can't agree or disagree, I came into the joint in 1985.

[LaVonne]

Sorry bud, have to chime in here. Haney just....hmmmm. JUST took a small established church and made it a juggernaut in the community, state, district, and world. His reach JUST has been world-wide,from small churches built overseas, to Bible schools being helped, to JUST millions of dollars given to missions.
His business savvy JUST has made his financial legacy last.
His restoration ministry has JUST helped many who struggle get back on their feet and go back to their callings.
His mentoring ministry has JUST launched hundreds of Apostolic ministries around the globe.
Just....puh-leeeze, you and I would be lucky if we could JUST tie his shoes,
And that goes out to the rest of you arm-chair quarterbacks too...JUST, whatever!

Excellent post!

[Carpenter]

I've enjoyed the posts and comments on this thread Carp. Glad you started it.

Well you know, like I said, this was not meant to bring either man into contempt or scorn or to judge the leadership capabilities. I could have started a thread comparing Stanley Chambers to Brother Urshan, but it would have only been relevant to the old timers around here like Sam and OP. :D

There are no doubt times of crisis on the horizon for the UPC and it is interesting to me to know from their constituency if they are going to be constantly looking back for the leadership of the past to save it.

[rrford]

Well you know, like I said, this was not meant to bring either man into contempt or scorn or to judge the leadership capabilities. I could have started a thread comparing Stanley Chambers to Brother Urshan, but it would have been relevant to the old timers around here like Sam and OP. :D

There are no doubt times of crisis on the horizon for the UPC and it is interesting to me to know from their constituency if they are going to be constantly looking back for the leadership of the past to save it.

Paradigm shifts will take place. The problem with organizations is there are so many diverse groups that each goes through it's own paradigm shift. One hopes, and believes, that in the long run a cohesiveness in diversity will be found. God does still raise up leaders according to His good pleasure.

[Felicity]

Well you know, like I said, this was not meant to bring either man into contempt or scorn or to judge the leadership capabilities. I could have started a thread comparing Stanley Chambers to Brother Urshan, but it would have been relevant to the old timers around here like Sam and OP. :D

There are no doubt times of crisis on the horizon for the UPC and it is interesting to me to know from their constituency if they are going to be constantly looking back for the leadership of the past to save it.How much you look back sometimes depends on your age and it seems as if at present the old guys are the majority. However you define "old". ;)

The fact is the UPC is never going to be what it "was". It's impossible! It's finished if it remains imbedded in its present. It must go forward and should and will no doubt look quite different 12 years from now than it does today.

To me it makes no difference that Bro. Haney is no Bro. Urshan. Bro. Haney needs to be himself and no doubt is although I think perhaps he wears the GS shoes a little less comfortably than did Bro. Urshan. The man is a proven leader with his own strengths and accompanying weaknesses.

Every man has them.

[Neck]

Some would say the organization was moving forward during the entire Urshan administration, most certainly longer than a 6 year period.

I can't agree or disagree, I came into the joint in 1985.

I didn't mine Nathan Urshan for the years he was the GS. Today it needs to be limited to 6 years.....

[Neck]

Originally Posted by Monkeyman
Sorry bud, have to chime in here. Haney just....hmmmm. JUST took a small established church and made it a juggernaut in the community, state, district, and world. His reach JUST has been world-wide,from small churches built overseas, to Bible schools being helped, to JUST millions of dollars given to missions.
His business savvy JUST has made his financial legacy last.
His restoration ministry has JUST helped many who struggle get back on their feet and go back to their callings.
His mentoring ministry has JUST launched hundreds of Apostolic ministries around the globe.
Just....puh-leeeze, you and I would be lucky if we could JUST tie his shoes,
And that goes out to the rest of you arm-chair quarterbacks too...JUST, whatever!

Excellent post!

The comment isn't about us tying Bro. Haney's shoes.

It was about Bro. Urshan and Bro. Haney.

I understand what Bro. Haney accomplished at his church.

Has that translated in the same growth and vision for the entire UPCI?

You answer the question in your own mind?

The best salesman usually becomes the sales manager.

In my career I have see that happen 7 times.

Each time the sales manager would then be out the door within the year.

I turned down the position twice.

Being the best at what you do...."Like pastoring a church".

Does not translate into success as a leader on a larger scale.

I have no disrespect.

The book is still open....

[Carpenter]

I didn't mine Nathan Urshan for the years he was the GS. Today it needs to be limited to 6 years.....

Well, that is kind of what I am getting at, how would have Brother Urshan dealt with the issues facing the UPC today? Were these same issues facing the UPC 10 years ago, but we never heard about them because of the way they were dealt with by leadership?

I dunno. If 1992 is any indication, it may be a good thing for the UPC to move strongly, quickly, decisively, and without reservation to the ultraconservative side of the spectrum.

[Neck]

Well, that is kind of what I am getting at, how would have Brother Urshan dealt with the issues facing the UPC today? Were these same issues facing the UPC 10 years ago, but we never heard about them because of the way they were dealt with by leadership?

I dunno. If 1992 is any indication, it may be a good thing for the UPC to move strongly, quickly, decisively, and without reservation to the ultraconservative side of the spectrum.

Move to the ultraconservative side. All the leadership needs is a chair to sit down. They are already on the Ultra-Con front lawn.

It's many of the good men out in the crowd that are sick of talking about things 15 and 30 years later......

[Carpenter]

Move to the ultraconservative side. All the leadership needs is a chair to sit down. They are already on the Ultra-Con front lawn.

It's many of the good men out in the crowd that are sick of talking about things 15 and 30 years later......

This is an interesting comment, but I am not sure I understand it in full context, can you expound a little bit more...but not too much... :D

[Neck]

This is an interesting comment, but I am not sure I understand it in full context, can you expound a little bit more...but not too much... :D

There will not be any real changes in the UPCI in the next 10 years.

There will however be a number of men who will realize as others venture out.

There is a great big harvest out ther that will be reaped no matter the lable on the pulpit when you preach.

[Felicity]

There will not be any real changes in the UPCI in the next 10 years.

There will however be a number of men who will realize as others venture out.

There is a great big harvest out ther that will be reaped no matter the lable on the pulpit when you preach.Well .... that pretty much annihilates my ...... "the UPCI will look different 12 years from now than it does today" comment. :toofunny

[seguidordejesus]

But oh, those next two years will be a doozy!!!

[Neck]

Well .... that pretty much annihilates my ...... "the UPCI will look different 12 years from now than it does today" comment. :toofunny

Felicity it will not look different in approach as the UPCI. It will look different when u go to a conference and won't see many of the landmark faces in the crowd.

[Carpenter]

Felicity it will not look different in approach as the UPCI. It will look different when u go to a conference and won't see many of the landmark faces in the crowd.

Even though this argument takes the wind out of the sails of many threads on this forum, I am afraid you are right.

Like I and others have said, the UPC is not going to split (which is really a 50-50 proposition) but it will splinter off bit by bit over a long period of time especially, and sadly when the baby-boomer preachers and pastors begin to retire or worse.

I am a bit too old for a long awaited change in the UPC to have any effect, however my daughter will most certainly experience a different organization if she/we are still a part of it....God help us...

[berkeley]

Like I and others have said, the UPC is not going to split (which is really a 50-50 proposition) but it will splinter off bit by bit over a long period of time especially, and sadly when the baby-boomer preachers and pastors begin to retire or worse.

Thoughts???

[Amanah]

I was in an independent church before I joined one affiliated with the UPCI. My current church can/will stand with or without or in spite of the UPCI.

[1ofthechosen]

I was in an independent church before I joined one affiliated with the UPCI. My current church can/will stand with or without or in spite of the UPCI.

Amen I'm in agreement with this. But my church did move away from the UPCI. But organizations are a man made thing, that wasn't taught from the Bible. While they may of had a council, there was no minister organization fellowship. So I believe that would speak for itself. All will rise and all will fall, because its man design and not God's. My thoughts on the whole thing. I'm not saying ones better than the other, but I am saying this is a institution designed by man. Nothing man does in his own power can stand forever.

[Amanah]

Amen I'm in agreement with this. But my church did move away from the UPCI. But organizations are a man made thing, that wasn't taught from the Bible. While they may of had a council, there was no minister organization fellowship. So I believe that would speak for itself. All will rise and all will fall, because its man design and not God's. My thoughts on the whole thing. I'm not saying ones better than the other, but I am saying this is a institution designed by man. Nothing man does in his own power can stand forever.

Paul said "follow me as I follow Christ"

And guess what, any man can fall. The Independent church I was a part of preached truth for 20+ years and then fell, so, ultimately my Pastor is the Lord Jesus Christ, my husband is in authority over me, and the local elders are to be obeyed in as long as they are preaching the bible.

If you idolize a man (or an org for that matter), when he/it falls, you could fall also.

[1ofthechosen]

Paul said "follow me as I follow Christ"

And guess what, any man can fall. The Independent church I was a part of preached truth for 20+ years and then fell, so, ultimately my Pastor is the Lord Jesus Christ, my husband is in authority over me, and the local elders are to be obeyed in as long as they are preaching the bible.

If you idolize a man (or an org for that matter), when he/it falls, you could fall also.

I totally agree!

[Costeon]

Since David Bernard has been at the helm, the UPCI has made a huge turn around organizationally and the big concerns before (financially, drop in numbers of new ministers) are no more . He has had an impressive tenure.

[consapente89]

I pray that God blesses the UPCi with strong donctrinal solidarity, firm holiness principals and convictions, and powerful evangelism results. That being said, I will still have no desire to join.

[derAlte]

I fondly remember both Nathaniel A. Urshan and Kenneth F. Haney as upright, honorable men of sterling character who were genuine Christians. They believed I John 4:7-8 and practiced it. I miss both of them.