Anybody here listen to Joseph Prince?

[Bro-Larry]

He's on both Daystar and TBN. He's head and shoulders above most of the moneymongers on TV. He has clear revelation about the "Radical Grace of God".

I've started back thru the NT from Acts thru the epistles, and I was shocked to discover how much the writers have to say about grace. In my fifty years of "trying to live for God", I've heard virtually no teaching about the grace of God among Apostolics. It's just an incidental subject, and yet I'm finding that grace is the main subject of the NT.

I'd like to have your input. tks, Bro-Larry

[ManOfWord]

He's on both Daystar and TBN. He's head and shoulders above most of the moneymongers on TV. He has clear revelation about the "Radical Grace of God".

I've started back thru the NT from Acts thru the epistles, and I was shocked to discover how much the writers have to say about grace. In my fifty years of "trying to live for God", I've heard virtually no teaching about the grace of God among Apostolics. It's just an incidental subject, and yet I'm finding that grace is the main subject of the NT.

I'd like to have your input. tks, Bro-Larry

Larry, the reason there is such on dearth on grace preaching is due to the fact that most apostolics don't have a clue as to the different between justification and sanctification. Most apostolics believe that sanctification brings justification and it is the other way around. Justification is the precursor to sanctification. Most apostolics are afraid of grace. Too may believe that if you preach grace, that people with think it is licentiousness and live any way they want to. The problem is that they are already doing it. They just don't let anyone else know it. As long as they have a good shockamoo experience at church, everyone thinks everyone else is OK.

In other words, I am holy BECAUSE I am saved. I am not saved because I am holy. My holiness proceeds from my imputed righteousness due to my justification by trusting in what Jesus did for me and not trusting in what I do.

I hope this is not too confusing. :D

[Bro-Larry]

Larry, the reason there is such on dearth on grace preaching is due to the fact that most apostolics don't have a clue as to the different between justification and sanctification. Most apostolics believe that sanctification brings justification and it is the other way around. Justification is the precursor to sanctification. Most apostolics are afraid of grace. Too may believe that if you preach grace, that people with think it is licentiousness and live any way they want to. The problem is that they are already doing it. They just don't let anyone else know it. As long as they have a good shockamoo experience at church, everyone thinks everyone else is OK.

In other words, I am holy BECAUSE I am saved. I am not saved because I am holy. My holiness proceeds from my imputed righteousness due to my justification by trusting in what Jesus did for me and not trusting in what I do.

I hope this is not too confusing. :D

Thanks for the validation, Bro MOW. I wanted to say what you said. but didn't think I had the credibility capital to say it myself. Much of what I have posted on AFF is beyond the pale of Pentecostal orthodoxy

[Cindy]

Preach!

[Pastor Keith]

Larry, the reason there is such on dearth on grace preaching is due to the fact that most apostolics don't have a clue as to the different between justification and sanctification. Most apostolics believe that sanctification brings justification and it is the other way around. Justification is the precursor to sanctification. Most apostolics are afraid of grace. Too may believe that if you preach grace, that people with think it is licentiousness and live any way they want to. The problem is that they are already doing it. They just don't let anyone else know it. As long as they have a good shockamoo experience at church, everyone thinks everyone else is OK.

In other words, I am holy BECAUSE I am saved. I am not saved because I am holy. My holiness proceeds from my imputed righteousness due to my justification by trusting in what Jesus did for me and not trusting in what I do.
I hope this is not too confusing. :D

Good post and good summary!

[Bro-Larry]

Cindy, what did you do for intertainment before you found AFF? LOL I've been on here three times longer than you, yet you have three times more posts than me. LOL (which is correct grammar Me or I?)

:reaction:ursofunny

[tv1a]

I have about 3 hours of his teachings tivo'd. Grace hasn't been taught by apostolics because they are too busy pushing their apostolic identity to preach about grace.

I remember Jeff Arnold a few years back getting some heat from the peanut gallery because of what he taught about grace. If I rememebr correctly, he was unfairly labeled by legalists.

He's on both Daystar and TBN. He's head and shoulders above most of the moneymongers on TV. He has clear revelation about the "Radical Grace of God".

I've started back thru the NT from Acts thru the epistles, and I was shocked to discover how much the writers have to say about grace. In my fifty years of "trying to live for God", I've heard virtually no teaching about the grace of God among Apostolics. It's just an incidental subject, and yet I'm finding that grace is the main subject of the NT.

I'd like to have your input. tks, Bro-Larry

[AmazingGrace]

Cindy, what did you do for intertainment before you found AFF? LOL I've been on here three times longer than you, yet you have three times more posts than me. LOL (which is correct grammar Me or I?)

:reaction:ursofunny

Your a slow poster thats all ! LOL... besides half of hers are just her getting in trouble on the short bus!

[Bro-Larry]

Your a slow poster thats all ! LOL... besides half of hers are just her getting in trouble on the short bus!

Right, I can't type,:ursofunny I just hunt and peck.:kickcan

[Sherri]

Eddie taught me so much about grace after we got married. I realized that I didn't understand it at all, and he had so much wisdom to be only nineteen years old!

[Fiyahstarter]

A friend of mine gave me a couple of recordings of Joseph Prince ... so I felt obligated to watch them so I could comment when she asked.

I didn't think I would be able to handle it at first ... his accent really bugged me (hangs head in shame). But I forced myself... and sure am glad I did!

WOW! What a message! He's definitely got some revelation hung to him! Revelation that lots of Apostolics NEED to have opened to them!!!

[Dedicated Mind]

I watch Joseph Prince from time to time. No one that I have heard comes close to the depth of understanding that he has about grace. Glad to hear some on here have been exposed to his teaching. Thanks for posting.

[Bro-Larry]

I watch Joseph Prince from time to time. No one that I have heard comes close to the depth of understanding that he has about grace. Glad to hear some on here have been exposed to his teaching. Thanks for posting.

He pastors a huge church in Singapore, and preaches all over. Hillsong Australia, also at Peter Youngren's Celebration Church, Niagra NY and Canada. They are all radical about the grace of God.

[Cindy]

Cindy, what did you do for intertainment before you found AFF? LOL I've been on here three times longer than you, yet you have three times more posts than me. LOL (which is correct grammar Me or I?)

:reaction:ursofunny

Dontcha remember how many kids I have..................LOL

[Cindy]

I type fast Lar.

[Sam]

...
In other words, I am holy BECAUSE I am saved. I am not saved because I am holy. My holiness proceeds from my imputed righteousness due to my justification by trusting in what Jesus did for me and not trusting in what I do.

I hope this is not too confusing. :D

good word, MOW.


Salvation is a gift to receive, not a goal to achieve.

[bkstokes]

good word, MOW.


Salvation is a gift to receive, not a goal to achieve.


My boy Sam. I like to read your posts.

[Bro-Larry]

My boy Sam. I like to read your posts.

After you hear teaching and preaching with some real revelation for a while, you can hardly listen to the empty stuff anymore. Preaching that I used to think was really great, now is just a bunch of ranting and railing. To prove my point, how many of you remember what your preacher preached about two weeks ago? If he didn't make you mad, sad ,or glad, his preaching will have no impact on your life.

www.josephprince.org

http://watchcelebrate.tv/index.php?/main/index/archive/py-sermons\the_secret/TheSecret_1

[crakjak]

After you hear teaching and preaching with some real revelation for a while, you can hardly listen to the empty stuff anymore. Preaching that I used to think was really great, now is just a bunch of ranting and railing. To prove my point, how many of you remember what your preacher preached about two weeks ago? If he didn't make you mad, sad ,or glad, his preaching will have no impact on your life.

www.josephprince.org

http://watchcelebrate.tv/index.php?/main/index/archive/py-sermons\the_secret/TheSecret_1

Love your signature line, brother. This is the truth that set free. All the baptizing and tongue speaking the world will not set you free, accepting what Jesus has done for you will set you free. Then baptism and spirit infilling has meaning.

[Sam]

I don't ever remember hearing about him before.

This is a summary of his beliefs according to his web site:

We believe in one God, who exists in three Persons — the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He is loving, holy and just.

We believe that the Bible is God’s Word. It is inspired and accurate. It is our perfect guide in all matters of life.

We believe that sin has separated us all from God, and that only through Jesus Christ can we be reconciled to God.

We believe that Jesus Christ is both God and Man. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He led a sinless life, took all our sins upon Himself, died and rose again. Today, He is seated at the right hand of the Father as our High Priest and Mediator.

We believe that salvation is the gift of God to man. This gift is effected by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and it produces works pleasing to God.

We believe that water baptism is a symbol of the cleansing power of God and a testimony of our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

We believe that the Holy Spirit is our Comforter. He guides us in all areas of our lives. He also blesses us with spiritual gifts and empowers us to yield the fruit of the Spirit.

We believe that the Holy Communion is a celebration of Jesus’ death and our remembrance of Him.

We believe that God wants to transform, heal and prosper us, so that we can live blessed and victorious lives that will impact and help others.

We believe that we are called to preach the gospel to all nations.

We believe that our Lord Jesus Christ is coming back again just as He promised.



© Copyright Joseph Prince, 2007–2008

[Carpenter]

When I am surfing the channel on the very rare occasion I watch television, it is hard for me to change when I see J.P. speaking. There is something old school about him that I appreciate, and I haven't heard him give the good old blab it and grab it type stuff.

[ManOfWord]

I don't ever remember hearing about him before.

This is a summary of his beliefs according to his web site:

We believe in one God, who exists in three Persons — the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He is loving, holy and just.



© Copyright Joseph Prince, 2007–2008

So, he's one o' them "trinnies!" :D

[Sherri]

Someone at church today just told me that they have Tivo'd him at least 70 times; that they love to listen to him! I have never heard him.

[commonsense]

I've never heard him or heard of him.

Where does he preach?

[Fiyahstarter]

So, he's one o' them "trinnies!" :D

Regardless... he could teach a lot of us "onsies" something ... if we'd grant him audience.

He is DEEP in revelation.

GOOD STUFF!

[Sam]

When I am surfing the channel on the very rare occasion I watch television, it is hard for me to change when I see J.P. speaking. There is something old school about him that I appreciate, and I haven't heard him give the good old blab it and grab it type stuff.

I really don't watch TBN. I do have my tv set to record Hal Lindsey, Matthew Barnett, Perry Stone and the Gaithers though.

Speaking of "old school," I did enjoy Joel Osteen's dad but I don't particularly care for Joel's speaking/teaching/preaching.

[Sam]

The Joseph Prince web site says:
"We believe in one God, who exists in three Persons — the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He is loving, holy and just."

If he would have used words like "personalities" or "offices" or "manifestations" he would have been acceptable to more of us. Or, what if he used the terms "masks" or "roles" which is what (from what I understand) the word "person" meant way back when the creeds were written.

[Jack Shephard]

I have watched Joseph Prince. He is good. Looking through the old OP's eyes his message is sickening. But looking through real vision his message is pure and unadulterated GRACE! He preaches GRACE better than anyone have heard. He does the message of Grace good!

[Bro-Larry]

I have watched Joseph Prince. He is good. Looking through the old OP's eyes his message is sickening. But looking through real vision his message is pure and unadulterated GRACE! He preaches GRACE better than anyone have heard. He does the message of Grace good!

I was born on an Ultra Con pew, I didn't even know that for most of my life I was trying to earn my way to heaven. Now, I just let the grace of God bring salvation.

[RandyWayne]

Grace is hard to accept.

Imagine receiving a huge Christmas/Birthday/Graduation gift. The first thought is "how should I repay this?".

Sometimes it is just not possible.

[Bro-Larry]

Grace is hard to accept.

Imagine receiving a huge Christmas/Birthday/Graduation gift. The first thought is "how should I repay this?".

Sometimes it is just not possible.

Say what? So they just "loaned you the gift ? right? lolol
:ursofunny:bliss

[RandyWayne]

Say what? So they just "loaned you the gift ? right? lolol
:ursofunny:bliss

I have a father-in-law who fits this description. He is so bull headed that it is impossible to go out to eat with him without him flagging the waitress down half way through the meal and picking up the check. He will get physically angry if anyone else pays.
Same goes for Christmas. Woe onto those who dare buy him a gift!

[Brother Price]

He may be trinity, but I believe this man knows Christ. You cannot preach grace as he does unless that man knows Christ.

[Kings Kid]

Yeah, I caught the very end of his program he is good. But its going to take me a little time to get use to his accent.

[Smiggy]

Yeah, I caught the very end of his program he is good. But its going to take me a little time to get use to his accent.

The accent is Singlish. He's a singaporean. I have been in NCC since the nineties and I can tell u that once you are into the grace message, u do not want to hear too much about other speakers anymore because Grace is a person.. it is exposition and revealing of Jesus, the lovely Son of God and the completeness of His work on the cross. That is Why when Jesus is revealed, our best effort suck and pale in comparison.. But the more we see him, the more we are transformed to be like him..effortlessly.

Once u see more of the Jesus, you will realise that 99% of the books need not be written because it is just soulish and full of self effort. You need to do this and that. to please God and if u can really please God by your effort, Jesus need not come. Jesus came because we all fail and mess up. Not one can obey. Not one meet God's standard. Hence Jesus became our standard.

There is a revolution going on.. the gospel revolution where Jesus and the completeness of his finished work takes center stage..

People do not stay away from church because they hate God but because they cannot stand religion. Why put a yoke on someone in the world to bear when the believer can bearly bear it.

Even the book of revelation is so misconstrued.. it is like a book on the antichrist and the beast when it clearly states in the first sentence that it is the revelation of Jesus Christ.. see how far the church has missed it by either focusing on the antichrist, beast or self effort.. except the Lord Jesus.

It is time to stop eating from the tree of the knowledge of Good ( depending on your self effort, prayers, fasting, giving, intellect, discipline, network, qualification) and Evil ( feeling unworthy, lousy, guilty, condemned,) and starts to focus and eat from the Tree of Life - which is Jesus, his love for us, our completeness and acceptance in Him before the Father n his finished work etc.

Pastor prince has been called many things, a prosperity teachers, cult leader etc.. but one thing I can tell u, NCC is the most relaxing church to be in and there is no obligation to give or bring anyone to church yet the church is growing leaps and bound. I like it because it is totally effortless. Pastor prince believe this basic principle.. Feed the sheeps, if they are healthy, they will multiply.

Concerning giving, if u do not want to give or not sure, please do not give. God is not broke and the church certainly dont need your money. no mini sermons before offering time and in fact, pastor prince often forget about the offering and had to be reminded by the ushers or leaders in front.

fellow believers, the gospel is simple but to understand grace, the Holy Spirit really need to open our eyes because Grace, is from heaven where religious dos and donts are earthy.

[Jack Shephard]

The accent is Singlish. He's a singaporean. I have been in NCC since the nineties and I can tell u that once you are into the grace message, u do not want to hear too much about other speakers anymore because Grace is a person.. it is exposition and revealing of Jesus, the lovely Son of God and the completeness of His work on the cross. That is Why when Jesus is revealed, our best effort suck and pale in comparison.. But the more we see him, the more we are transformed to be like him..effortlessly.

Once u see more of the Jesus, you will realise that 99% of the books need not be written because it is just soulish and full of self effort. You need to do this and that. to please God and if u can really please God by your effort, Jesus need not come. Jesus came because we all fail and mess up. Not one can obey. Not one meet God's standard. Hence Jesus became our standard.

There is a revolution going on.. the gospel revolution where Jesus and the completeness of his finished work takes center stage..

People do not stay away from church because they hate God but because they cannot stand religion. Why put a yoke on someone in the world to bear when the believer can bearly bear it.

Even the book of revelation is so misconstrued.. it is like a book on the antichrist and the beast when it clearly states in the first sentence that it is the revelation of Jesus Christ.. see how far the church has missed it by either focusing on the antichrist, beast or self effort.. except the Lord Jesus.

It is time to stop eating from the tree of the knowledge of Good ( depending on your self effort, prayers, fasting, giving, intellect, discipline, network, qualification) and Evil ( feeling unworthy, lousy, guilty, condemned,) and starts to focus and eat from the Tree of Life - which is Jesus, his love for us, our completeness and acceptance in Him before the Father n his finished work etc.

Pastor prince has been called many things, a prosperity teachers, cult leader etc.. but one thing I can tell u, NCC is the most relaxing church to be in and there is no obligation to give or bring anyone to church yet the church is growing leaps and bound. I like it because it is totally effortless. Pastor prince believe this basic principle.. Feed the sheeps, if they are healthy, they will multiply.
Concerning giving, if u do not want to give or not sure, please do not give. God is not broke and the church certainly dont need your money. no mini sermons before offering time and in fact, pastor prince often forget about the offering and had to be reminded by the ushers or leaders in front.

fellow believers, the gospel is simple but to understand grace, the Holy Spirit really need to open our eyes because Grace, is from heaven where religious dos and donts are earthy.

How true it is! This is so basic but yet still very profound. I enjoy his ministry. I have no probelms no matter whether he is oneness, twoness, or Trinity. He is plan awesome!

[Ferd]

Larry, the reason there is such on dearth on grace preaching is due to the fact that most apostolics don't have a clue as to the different between justification and sanctification. Most apostolics believe that sanctification brings justification and it is the other way around. Justification is the precursor to sanctification. Most apostolics are afraid of grace. Too may believe that if you preach grace, that people with think it is licentiousness and live any way they want to. The problem is that they are already doing it. They just don't let anyone else know it. As long as they have a good shockamoo experience at church, everyone thinks everyone else is OK.

In other words, I am holy BECAUSE I am saved. I am not saved because I am holy. My holiness proceeds from my imputed righteousness due to my justification by trusting in what Jesus did for me and not trusting in what I do.

I hope this is not too confusing. :D

I dont want to quibble or anything.....

but this has not been my experience AT ALL.

[Smiggy]

I dont want to quibble or anything.....

but this has not been my experience AT ALL.

Truth is truth even if our experience do not measure up.
To walk with God, simply agree with HIM (how can 2 walk together unless they agree)

The bible declared that you are now the wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption of God in Him ( 1Co 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption--)

Meaning, u need to start seeing and confess who u r in Christ, even when u fail and do not measure up. You need to start to see yourself how God sees u, even when u fail. Your failure has got nothing to do with who God says u r. Overtime, right believing will produce right living (experience).

The verse "there is therefore now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus" (rom 8:1) are for those who failed there and then. The Word declare that when u failed, on the spot, there is no condemnation.

This verse is not written to those who do not fail, because why should they feel condemned if they do not fail. It is for those who failed, there and then the word declared, there is no condemnation.

Condemnation and guilt is the devil tool to keep believer in sin, defeat and failure.

Remember the woman caught in adultery? Jesus proclaimed "neither do I condemn u, go and sin no more". The power to "sin no more" comes from receiving no condemnation from the Saviour.

The Word is consistent when u understand the Grace of God.

The Christian walk is not hard, it is impossible. The only one who can live it is Jesus. that is why we need to give up trying to obey the ten commandments and all the legalistic requirements and let come to the end of ourselves and Let Jesus walk the walk through us. That is what losing the soul mean - stop trusting in the human endeavour, intellect, emotional and will - count all our best effort dung as far as criteria for God's blessing is concerned - so that we can be found in Him, the righteousness of God without works.

If it's God doing it, it's easy. Human effort is hard, will produce more sin and mistake as a result. See Abraham example - self effort produces ishmael - the arab nations.

[Bro-Larry]

I really don't watch TBN. I do have my tv set to record Hal Lindsey, Matthew Barnett, Perry Stone and the Gaithers though.

Speaking of "old school," I did enjoy Joel Osteen's dad but I don't particularly care for Joel's speaking/teaching/preaching.

They are all "trinnies" too, Sam. :tic:tic:toofunny

[Bro-Larry]

Smiggy has packed more truth into two posts than I thought possible.

NO ONE from Adam to the present has ever or ever will be saved except by grace through faith in Jesus. The law was not given to save anybody. It was given to show that everyone was locked in the grip of sin and could never get out by their own good works or efforts.

I believe that most Christian people of all types and shades are sincere, and good. I believe that most do believe in the finished work of Jesus and therefore are saved. However, almost every Christian has list of "laws" that they believe they must keep to be saved. Whenever works doctrine (law) is preached, sin gets worse. A veil is covers your heart (II Cor 3:15) and sin is strengthened. (I Cor 15:56).

Many struggle with what to obey. Others struggle with finances. Many struggle with health issues. Some struggle with sin issues. Because many are ignorant of how to walk in the grace of God, they miss out on many of the benefits of the "God-life" (ZOE') that Jesus came to bring to us all. (Jn 10:10) Zoe' is the same life that God lives. Jesus came to bring that kind of life to us all.

Give up the struggle. Cease from your own works and cast all your care on Him. Enter into God's rest. (Heb 4:1-11) Let you salvation rest in the truth that Jesus did all the work and He intended that we enjoy all the benefits of His work.

[Jack Shephard]

Smiggy has packed more truth into two posts than I thought possible.

NO ONE from Adam to the present has ever or ever will be saved except by grace through faith in Jesus. The law was not given to save anybody. It was given to show that everyone was locked in the grip of sin and could never get out by their own good works or efforts.

I believe that most Christian people of all types and shades are sincere, and good. I believe that most do believe in the finished work of Jesus and therefore are saved. However, almost every Christian has list of "laws" that they believe they must keep to be saved. Whenever works doctrine (law) is preached, sin gets worse. A veil is covers your heart (II Cor 3:15) and sin is strengthened. (I Cor 15:56).

Many struggle with what to obey. Others struggle with finances. Many struggle with health issues. Some struggle with sin issues. Because many are ignorant of how to walk in the grace of God, they miss out on many of the benefits of the "God-life" (ZOE') that Jesus came to bring to us all. (Jn 10:10) Zoe' is the same life that God lives. Jesus came to bring that kind of life to us all.

Give up the struggle. Cease from your own works and cast all your care on Him. Enter into God's rest. (Heb 4:1-11) Let you salvation rest in the truth that Jesus did all the work and He intended that we enjoy all the benefits of His work.

WOW! Very well said here. This is a good explaination of salvation through Grace.

[Truthseeker]

isn't obedience required for salvation? Can one not have works but just say I believe in the finished work of the cross so I'm saved??

[Ferd]

Truth is truth even if our experience do not measure up.
To walk with God, simply agree with HIM (how can 2 walk together unless they agree)

The bible declared that you are now the wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption of God in Him ( 1Co 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption--)

Meaning, u need to start seeing and confess who u r in Christ, even when u fail and do not measure up. You need to start to see yourself how God sees u, even when u fail. Your failure has got nothing to do with who God says u r. Overtime, right believing will produce right living (experience).

The verse "there is therefore now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus" (rom 8:1) are for those who failed there and then. The Word declare that when u failed, on the spot, there is no condemnation.

This verse is not written to those who do not fail, because why should they feel condemned if they do not fail. It is for those who failed, there and then the word declared, there is no condemnation.

Condemnation and guilt is the devil tool to keep believer in sin, defeat and failure.

Remember the woman caught in adultery? Jesus proclaimed "neither do I condemn u, go and sin no more". The power to "sin no more" comes from receiving no condemnation from the Saviour.

The Word is consistent when u understand the Grace of God.

The Christian walk is not hard, it is impossible. The only one who can live it is Jesus. that is why we need to give up trying to obey the ten commandments and all the legalistic requirements and let come to the end of ourselves and Let Jesus walk the walk through us. That is what losing the soul mean - stop trusting in the human endeavour, intellect, emotional and will - count all our best effort dung as far as criteria for God's blessing is concerned - so that we can be found in Him, the righteousness of God without works.

If it's God doing it, it's easy. Human effort is hard, will produce more sin and mistake as a result. See Abraham example - self effort produces ishmael - the arab nations.


i am courious Smiggy, when you use the pronoun "you" do you mean me (as you quoted me)

or is that just a general "you"?

[Ferd]

Smiggy has packed more truth into two posts than I thought possible.

NO ONE from Adam to the present has ever or ever will be saved except by grace through faith in Jesus. The law was not given to save anybody. It was given to show that everyone was locked in the grip of sin and could never get out by their own good works or efforts.

I believe that most Christian people of all types and shades are sincere, and good. I believe that most do believe in the finished work of Jesus and therefore are saved. However, almost every Christian has list of "laws" that they believe they must keep to be saved. Whenever works doctrine (law) is preached, sin gets worse. A veil is covers your heart (II Cor 3:15) and sin is strengthened. (I Cor 15:56).

Many struggle with what to obey. Others struggle with finances. Many struggle with health issues. Some struggle with sin issues. Because many are ignorant of how to walk in the grace of God, they miss out on many of the benefits of the "God-life" (ZOE') that Jesus came to bring to us all. (Jn 10:10) Zoe' is the same life that God lives. Jesus came to bring that kind of life to us all.

Give up the struggle. Cease from your own works and cast all your care on Him. Enter into God's rest. (Heb 4:1-11) Let you salvation rest in the truth that Jesus did all the work and He intended that we enjoy all the benefits of His work.

WOW! Very well said here. This is a good explaination of salvation through Grace.


Really?

somehow I thought:
Titus 2
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


but thats just me.

[Jack Shephard]

Really?

somehow I thought:
Titus 2
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


but thats just me.

Grace saves you and because you are saved you will abstain from the list above. But God gives grace to wach every sin away.

[Ferd]

Grace saves you and because you are saved you will abstain from the list above. But God gives grace to wach every sin away.

LOL! yea you keep thinking these things are unconnected.

[Jack Shephard]

LOL! yea you keep thinking these things are unconnected.

Yes they are connected. You do not obtain Grace because you do these things. Because you have obtained Grace you will not do these things. But keep in mind God does forgive us if we repent. God knows our motives. If we do something with the for knowledge that I can repent and be fine I am not sure God is going to because He knows our intentions.

[Ferd]

Yes they are connected. You do not obtain Grace because you do these things.
who in the world said that? I dont know a single person who has ever taught you obtain grace by any action what so ever.

[Jack Shephard]

who in the world said that? I dont know a single person who has ever taught you obtain grace by any action what so ever.

Well some may not verbally teach it but most imply that you have Grace, but only if you follow certain guidelines.

[Ferd]

Well some may not verbally teach it but most imply that you have Grace, but only if you follow certain guidelines.

JT, that is like saying republicans want to kill old people.

its just more of this crazy myth of sacremental salvation.


NOBODY from the most conservitive to the most liberal Apostolic teaches that kind of heresy. AND IT IS HERESY DUDE.

you guys need to stop fighting ghosts.

[Jack Shephard]

JT, that is like saying republicans want to kill old people.

its just more of this crazy myth of sacremental salvation.


NOBODY from the most conservitive to the most liberal Apostolic teaches that kind of heresy. AND IT IS HERESY DUDE.

you guys need to stop fighting ghosts.

I agree that it is heresy. But believe me I have seen it in action

[Jack Shephard]

Infact, Ferd, I have seen it first hand. I was out in shorts one day and someone ( a friend) talked me about my salvation because Grace is apparently conditional is how they were acting. Now my current Pastor and Bishop don't say anything. I even play golf with them in shorts.

[Truthseeker]

Infact, Ferd, I have seen it first hand. I was out in shorts one day and someone ( a friend) talked me about my salvation because Grace is apparently conditional is how they were acting. Now my current Pastor and Bishop don't say anything. I even play golf with them in shorts.

heathen

[Jack Shephard]

heathen

Ferd, see what I mean ^

LOL

[Bro-Larry]

So there are three salvational options? it's law or grace or UPC doctrine? Right?

[Jack Shephard]

So there are three salvational options? it's law or grace or UPC doctrine? Right?

It seems so. But you know the Law and the UPC doctrine are similar. So many rules no way anyone can ever be right. LOL








(Qualifying statement)
For all the UPCers, which include me, I am only joking.

[CC1]

JT, that is like saying republicans want to kill old people.

its just more of this crazy myth of sacremental salvation.


NOBODY from the most conservitive to the most liberal Apostolic teaches that kind of heresy. AND IT IS HERESY DUDE.

you guys need to stop fighting ghosts.


Ferd, since you are a moderate / conservative person in a fairly liberal church is it possible you are just not exposed to that take on things?

My experience in the UPC and with relatives and friends still in it is that the direct, immediate connection of your salvational status is immediately, directly related to your dress code, , etc.

These folks aren't looking for gross sin to condemn you to hell but just violating the group dress code is enough to make you "backslid" in their mind.

There are many UPC churches / saints who judge a person's salvation by these outward dress codes at first glance. You can't tell me that if a woman walks in most UPC churches with makeup, jewelry and a pantsuit on that she is thought to be "saved". You can deny it till the cows come home but the reality of a corporate dress / lifestyle code is what becomes the meauring stick of ones position with God.

[Bro-Larry]

BANG- BANG - BANG * that's the sound of CC1's hammer hitting the nail on the head.

[Truthseeker]

Ferd, see what I mean ^

LOL

Please do know i was just a messin with you by calling you heathen

[Jack Shephard]

Please do know i was just a messin with you by calling you heathen

Yeah of course I do. That is why I laughed about my post. One thing I almost never do is get offended or hurt. But to some I am considered a heathen.

[Truthseeker]

Yeah of course I do. That is why I laughed about my post. One thing I almost never do is get offended or hurt. But to some I am considered a heathen.


Only the heathen wear shorts!!!


While I could never wear shorts out about town, but do question why it's ok for a sister to wear a skirt below the knees but a brother can't wear shorts the same length???

[Jack Shephard]

Only the heathen wear shorts!!!


While I could never wear shorts out about town, but do question why it's ok for a sister to wear a skirt below the knees but a brother can't wear shorts the same length???

Things that make you go 'hmmmmm'

[Jack Shephard]

Ferd, since you are a moderate / conservative person in a fairly liberal church is it possible you are just not exposed to that take on things?

My experience in the UPC and with relatives and friends still in it is that the direct, immediate connection of your salvational status is immediately, directly related to your dress code, , etc.

These folks aren't looking for gross sin to condemn you to hell but just violating the group dress code is enough to make you "backslid" in their mind.

There are many UPC churches / saints who judge a person's salvation by these outward dress codes at first glance. You can't tell me that if a woman walks in most UPC churches with makeup, jewelry and a pantsuit on that she is thought to be "saved". You can deny it till the cows come home but the reality of a corporate dress / lifestyle code is that becomes the meauring stick of ones position with God.

This is true from what I hear and see from friends. It seems that only us that are no longer in the 'ark of safety' know people that are like this. The people still in the ark can not smell the stink of the animals cause they are now used to it. LOL

[Smiggy]

Really?

somehow I thought:
Titus 2
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


but thats just me.

Exactly.. the grace of God is manifested to teach u all these things.. to deny ungodliness. Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.. when Grace is revealed in your lives, it will also enpower u to live godly but it doesnt mean that if u fall short, u lose your salvation, for essentially, Jesus is the reason why I am saved.. not because of what I do or do not do.

For those who has the grace revealed will eventually produced the good works and live godly. It may take a while but it will come.

Like Abraham, whom God called righteous, a friend of God but he still lied about his wife to Abimelech (any wife would slaughter their husband for offering her to the King :) . He doubted God and produce Ishmael.
It was many years later that seed of righteousness begin to grow that he became the man of God that he is.
But God called him righteous and a friend even before the work is visible. In romans when Abraham is mentioned, his failures are not mentioned. That is How God sees us.

Point is.. if we focus on Jesus, his grace and work, we will walk in the will without us realising it.
If we focus on the law and self effort, holiness, we will fall sooner or later/
I am sure u have seen your fair share of big time ministers in the 80s and 90s, who preached against sin strongly, advocating a holy living, fall into the same sin they preached against.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

So the more a preacher preached the 10 commandments, it actually stir up the sinful passion in our flesh, accordingly to the word.
Worst, God call these ministries.. the ministry of death. So its minister, reasonably, a minister of death

2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones ( 10 commandments), was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,


It's like walking past a row of fences with holes and we do not think about it much. But one day, someone put a sign, " DO not peep" and guess what? before u know it, people are taking turns at the hole to see what is inside. This is what the law do to arouse the sin nature in the flesh.


So do we condone sin.. no? What I mean is our focus should shift to Jesus' work that makes u holy and u will walk in it without effort.
OT - focus on ourselves to keep the law to present ourselves acceptable.
NT - focus on Jesus' ability to keep the law to present u acceptable.

Sounds simple but it takes the Holy spirit to understand because Grace and salvation is from heaven and religion, earthly and all people understand.

Death - Thayer definition

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
Thayer Definition:
1) the death of the body
1a) that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended
1b) with the implied idea of future misery in hell
1b1) the power of death
1c) since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness, i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin
2) metaphorically, the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name
2a) the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell
3) the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell
4) in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell

[Smiggy]

isn't obedience required for salvation? Can one not have works but just say I believe in the finished work of the cross so I'm saved??

Your salvation is eternal and secured as it totally depends on Jesus and his finished works.

But the fruits of being saved, living a godly, victorious, successful life comes from revelation of Jesus and his finished work working in you. Your only obedience is sit at His feet and received. Like Mary, for this is the one thing that is needful. Your sitting at His feet will cause u to do the right thing at the right time. like Mary anointing Jesus before his crucification.

Salvation is not depending on your works else angels in heaven will have to sing " worthy is the Lamb and me (truthseeker) " and this aint gonna happen. :)


You were called a sinner because of Adam's sin ( though u did not eat of the tree that is forbidden) and now because of Jesus, u are made righteous and blameless before God regardless of your work. No more depending on our works.. this is the gospel, the good news. Its all about God, Jesus and their love for us.

Fair? yes.

[Smiggy]

There are many UPC churches / saints who judge a person's salvation by these outward dress codes at first glance. You can't tell me that if a woman walks in most UPC churches with makeup, jewelry and a pantsuit on that she is thought to be "saved". You can deny it till the cows come home but the reality of a corporate dress / lifestyle code is what becomes the meauring stick of ones position with God.

The same spirit and tribe has been around for a long time.
Paul talks about them..

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God ( which is Jesus and His complete work on the cross).

Bottomline is, they do not know God and His way.

They may know Jesus is their saviour and are saved but they do not know that the word saved means a lot more thing

Saved-
G4982
σώζω
sōzō
sode'-zo
From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, “safe”); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.