Pastor's problems

[jaxfam6]

How many of you have been in a church where the preacher seems to get on one subject and :beatdeadhorse?
From personal experience I have seen my father harp on adultery and low and behold that was exactly what he was having problems with. I have seen them harp on money and it seems they would do everything in their power to get more money for themselves. Every stupid get rich quick scam that came along they would jump on board. I have see preachers who do nothing but preach against one subject only to find out that they had an issue with that sin themselves.

Just curious if others have seen similar.

I know one that preachers against homosexuality about every service, or at least he used to, and now that I look back at it I am starting to worry about him. I pray very much that he doesn't have that issue himself but if he did it would not surprise me from my experiences.


BTW not for the purpose of telling who preached what and what their problem was. Just curious if others have had similar experiences.

[Cindy]

How about one that preached on gossip? Did ya know one like that?

[Moe]

How many of you have been in a church where the preacher seems to get on one subject and :beatdeadhorse?
From personal experience I have seen my father harp on adultery and low and behold that was exactly what he was having problems with. I have seen them harp on money and it seems they would do everything in their power to get more money for themselves. Every stupid get rich quick scam that came along they would jump on board. I have see preachers who do nothing but preach against one subject only to find out that they had an issue with that sin themselves.

Just curious if others have seen similar.

I know one that preachers against homosexuality about every service, or at least he used to, and now that I look back at it I am starting to worry about him. I pray very much that he doesn't have that issue himself but if he did it would not surprise me from my experiences.


BTW not for the purpose of telling who preached what and what their problem was. Just curious if others have had similar experiences.

I am sooooo sorry you have experienced this. I remember my father (who was in ministry for over 50 years) tell me the same thing. We have dealt with many ministers whom have fallen and have noticed (for the most part)
this to be true. What we noticed that most of these men were "hard clothesline preachers" While we stood for holiness, it was not railed on every single service and with harsh tones. It is almost like "misplaced blame" as they could not take responsibility for their own failures so the gender they found themselves entangled with became the enemy as a whole and they all had to pay for the sins of 1.

But I must point out this is just not a problem with ministers. It is a human issue that has manefested in one that just had the power and the platform to mis-use it. Sad, but they are to be pitied and prayed for. Seems like when they fall, they fall hard and it is hard for them to hold up their head afterward and most never make their way back. Most pastors fear helping these men after they fall. What a shame. Blood is the Blood is the Blood is the Blood!!!!!

How great it would be to have a hotline they could call that would honor confidentiality laws and allow these men and women to get help before it gets out of hand and actually keep them from a fall from grace. I know there is such a hotline in another Charismatic group. Great ministry! But.... to have one would mean that our leaders would have to acknowledge that there is a problem and not sure that would ever happen.

I hope and pray that you have not become bitter at your father and other men that have fallen. For every one that fell, there are 100 who are true and love righteousness and adhere to the moral law.

I will be praying for you.

Regards,

Moe

[jaxfam6]

I am sooooo sorry you have experienced this. I remember my father (who was in ministry for over 50 years) tell me the same thing. We have dealt with many ministers whom have fallen and have noticed (for the most part)
this to be true. What we noticed that most of these men were "hard clothesline preachers" While we stood for holiness, it was not railed on every single service and with harsh tones. It is almost like "misplaced blame" as they could not take responsibility for their own failures so the gender they found themselves entangled with became the enemy as a whole and they all had to pay for the sins of 1.

But I must point out this is just not a problem with ministers. It is a human issue that has manefested in one that just had the power and the platform to mis-use it. Sad, but they are to be pitied and prayed for. Seems like when they fall, they fall hard and it is hard for them to hold up their head afterward and most never make their way back. Most pastors fear helping these men after they fall. What a shame. Blood is the Blood is the Blood is the Blood!!!!!

How great it would be to have a hotline they could call that would honor confidentiality laws and allow these men and women to get help before it gets out of hand and actually keep them from a fall from grace. I know there is such a hotline in another Charismatic group. Great ministry! But.... to have one would mean that our leaders would have to acknowledge that there is a problem and not sure that would ever happen.

I hope and pray that you have not become bitter at your father and other men that have fallen. For every one that fell, there are 100 who are true and love righteousness and adhere to the moral law.

I will be praying for you.

Regards,

Moe

You know when I was younger I did start to become bitter because of the exact thing you talked about. Ministers and their wives and kids shunned my mom and I and my brother who was a fantastic minister in his own right had to live down the sins of my father. Then when his wife had her problems those same men and women shunned him also. It was hard. No I am not bitter. I actually believe that what does not kill us can only make us stronger.
From all these things I have learned balance in my walk with God and learned that preachers are human too. I understand how to be a better saint in a church because of it also.

[jaxfam6]

How about one that preached on gossip? Did ya know one like that?

actually yes. know of a church where the preacher and his wife wanted everyone to come to them with problems and then they would tell everyone else about who had what problem. of course it was all supposed to be so the others could pray for that person.

[Cindy]

actually yes. know of a church where the preacher and his wife wanted everyone to come to them with problems and then they would tell everyone else about who had what problem. of course it was all supposed to be so the others could pray for that person.

That's sad. I hate gossip. It can get in your spirit if you listen to someone gossip long enough. It's horrible. I think people over look things like gossip compared to other more immoral sins I guess. But it can do so much damage.

[gloryseeker]

How many of you have been in a church where the preacher seems to get on one subject and :beatdeadhorse?
From personal experience I have seen my father harp on adultery and low and behold that was exactly what he was having problems with. I have seen them harp on money and it seems they would do everything in their power to get more money for themselves. Every stupid get rich quick scam that came along they would jump on board. I have see preachers who do nothing but preach against one subject only to find out that they had an issue with that sin themselves.

Just curious if others have seen similar.

I know one that preachers against homosexuality about every service, or at least he used to, and now that I look back at it I am starting to worry about him. I pray very much that he doesn't have that issue himself but if he did it would not surprise me from my experiences.


BTW not for the purpose of telling who preached what and what their problem was. Just curious if others have had similar experiences.

I just wonder how many Pastors have failed because the people in their congregations didn't hold them up in prayer, because they were too focused on what they disagreed with?

Not only does the Pastor hold a great responsibility for the people they have been given, but the saints have a great responsibility for the gift that is in their life.

I would be careful how you talk about those of whom have greater authority in the Kingdom than yourself:


2 Pet 2:9-11
9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries,
11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord. (NKJ)

[bethola]

Yep! Been through it a couple of times. One of my pastors battled sexual sin; one battled gossip and one battled greed. It IS sad and causes a "Trust" issue with church congregants. However, jaxfam6, I agree with you that these issues (IF we learn from them) can help US be better balanced in OUR lives.

[mfblume]

It is true that a pastor's hobby horse, or dead horse, is indication he is trying to beat the same sin out of his own life by preaching against it, unconsciously, in more cases than not.

[OneAccord]

I remember some months before a certain minister was caught with prostitutes, his sermons became focused on "the sins of the felsh", (i.e., adultery, fornication, etc). He became very outspoken on these issues and, when another preacher was caught in imorality, this preacher led the mob to ostracize the other. Then...his sins came to light.

This is often the case. I knew a minister whose preaching againt sex, drugs and alcohol became a vitual obsession. Ever semon he preached, every tract he distributed dealt with these vices. Then, he became trapped in the very things he spoke the loudest against. Before his sins became apparent (which I might add, stemmed from an apparent addiction to pain madication), I became concerned by his obessesive dwelling on the mentioned vices (some of the tracts he distributed had some quite graphic images on them) and I prayed about it. The Lord seemed to have revealed to me that he was fighting those urges within himself. Apparently this was so, for the things he obsessed on were the very things that brought him down.

[jaxfam6]

I just wonder how many Pastors have failed because the people in their congregations didn't hold them up in prayer, because they were too focused on what they disagreed with?

Not only does the Pastor hold a great responsibility for the people they have been given, but the saints have a great responsibility for the gift that is in their life.

I would be careful how you talk about those of whom have greater authority in the Kingdom than yourself:


2 Pet 2:9-11
9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries,
11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord. (NKJ)

Interesting. One day maybe I will get into a dicussion about that also.

[Baron1710]

I just wonder how many Pastors have failed because the people in their congregations didn't hold them up in prayer, because they were too focused on what they disagreed with?

Not only does the Pastor hold a great responsibility for the people they have been given, but the saints have a great responsibility for the gift that is in their life.

I would be careful how you talk about those of whom have greater authority in the Kingdom than yourself:


2 Pet 2:9-11
9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries,
11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord. (NKJ)

Just curious as to why you think the office of pastor has greater authority in the kingdom than other callings within the body?

Also why does a pastor get to blame the saints for not praying for him when he falls? That seems a little odd to me.

Are you equating pastors with dignitaries?

[Book 'em Dano]

Non Pastors can and do do this as well. The "super religious" who point out everyone else's faults are usually the ones struggling with some sort of sin. They focus on all the 'ungodly' christians around them. If they tend to lie they will talk about how they hate liars.

If they talk about how they can't stand gossipers a lot you can be sure they gossip.

[Book 'em Dano]

Just curious as to why you think the office of pastor has greater authority in the kingdom than other callings within the body?

Also why does a pastor get to blame the saints for not praying for him when he falls? That seems a little odd to me.

Are you equating pastors with dignitaries?

Well nobody said a pastor gets to blame anyone. However Pastors usually are praying for the rest of the body in their local church. They should be praying for the souls, but at the same time the other members of the church should also be praying for him. Paul said pray for one another. That MUST include praying for the pastor, don't you think?

[Kutless]

Well nobody said a pastor gets to blame anyone. However Pastors usually are praying for the rest of the body in their local church. They should be praying for the souls, but at the same time the other members of the church should also be praying for him. Paul said pray for one another. That MUST include praying for the pastor, don't you think?I think you read the post that Baron referred to wrong.

I'm also curious to see some scritural ref that the pastor has more authority.

[Book 'em Dano]

I think you read the post that Baron referred to wrong.

I'm also curious to see some scritural ref that the pastor has more authority.
dumdumdoodoodoo....reading reading.....NOPE. I read it right the first time. Thanks anyways cuts less :ursofunny

[MrsMcD]

I think you read the post that Baron referred to wrong.

I'm also curious to see some scritural ref that the pastor has more authority.

The pastor is definitely held to a higher standard than saints.

I have noticed that people usually harp on things that they are struggling with themselves - it's not just a pastor thing.

[Kutless]

The pastor is definitely held to a higher standard than saints.

I have noticed that people usually harp on things that they are struggling with themselves - it's not just a pastor thing.totally agree MrsMcD.

Standard and authority not the same

[Kutless]

dumdumdoodoodoo....reading reading.....NOPE. I read it right the first time. Thanks anyways cuts less :ursofunnySorry Dano I think I read to much into your post.

BTW your comedic endeavor to re-arrange my user name was utterly hilarious. Did you come up with that on your own or did you plagerize a real comedian.........be honest

[Book 'em Dano]

I think I heard some guy do it once in Hawaii. Me and Steve were after this murderer and it turned out to be Rich Little.....

[Kutless]

I think I heard some guy do it once in Hawaii. Me and Steve were after this murderer and it turned out to be Rich Little.....Rich Little??????? Man you must be old! :bliss

[gloryseeker]

Just curious as to why you think the office of pastor has greater authority in the kingdom than other callings within the body?

Well I guess because, using your words, it's a "kingdom" and not a democracy. There is a structure of authority and according to Ephesians 4 those who in what has been termed the "five-fold" have been given to the saints to "perfect them" for the work of the ministry.

If you reduce it to simple terms, the instructor always has more authority than the student.

Also why does a pastor get to blame the saints for not praying for him when he falls? That seems a little odd to me.

No "blame" place in my post just an understanding of responsibility within the Kingdom

A Pastor has FAR more responsibility than those who they are responsible for. BUT, what many Christians don't realize is that they have a responsibility to pray for the person with whom they are under authority.


Heb 13:17-18
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
18 Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly. (KJV)

Are you equating pastors with dignitaries?

You have a way of inserting words that were never used. Do you have an issue with authority?

Mark 10:44
44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
(KJV)

Those who truly rise to higher levels of authority become more of a servant.

[Jack Shephard]

It really comes down to the intergity of a man/women. It has already been said that this is not just a pastor thing. I have seen it tons over the years. However, I have seen a pastor preach on sexual sin for several weeks, not because he was caught up in, but because the spirit led him and there were people in the congregation that were caught up in it. This is a tool of the devil. I honestly believe that buy getting good men and women to trip up and sin on this types of issues is his way to try and discredit God and all of us. Look at the secular or at least synical world when something bad like this happend. The cut the person to shreds for being hypocritical. While they are people always like to point out problems. I firmly believe it is the devil using these things to try and discredit the Kingdom of God to the unbelievers.

[jaxfam6]

I think we can all agree that this type of thing is at work with people in general, it is not just a pastor/preacher thing. We also can pretty much all agree that the church members should pray for the ministry.
I do not think the ministry has more authority with God than the average attendee. What gives each of us authority is our RELATIONSHIP with God. Those with less of a relationship are going to have less authority. I do not think authority with God has anything to do with positions.
I do believe that respect is something that is earned. When a pastor/preacher abuses his/her position they cause themselves to lose respect with people.
When a pastor harps on a subject I consider it more than a two or three week thing or even a couple month thing. When there is a problem and God is trying to work on it I think He will lay the subject on the heart of pastors and ministers but if it goes on very long I also think He is going to step it up and take it more one on one. When they harp on a subject it is all the time and pops up in nearly every message.
I know a minister who all he harps on is authority and how HE is the pastor and He deserves respect. His church just keeps getting smaller in size and less people call on him to preach for them. Except those that seem to have the same issues. I have seen him and heard him very little over the last 15 years but every time I do he is on the same subject. When I have asked others about him they all say that it seems to be all he can preach on. The man is obsessed with being in authority and leadership and how because of his position he is entitled to respect. Sorry but no he isn't. When you treat people like they are beneath you and you are better than they are you are not in authority nor are you a leader nor do you deserve respect.
Yes the ministry does deserve to be respected but true men and women of God actually follow the examples of Jesus.
We are all to be servents of God. We are to serve Him as well our fellow man. A servent does not go around with an attitude that they are better than everyone else. Servents are humble.

[ogatt]

This is the most bunch of nonsense i ever read!!
I preach again hair curlers and i dont curl my hair...mostly cause i dont have any
i preach again short skirts and i aint ever been tempted to play the bagpipes
i preach against church growth and that aint ever changed me
i preach against fishin on sunday and i never have been tempted to fish on sunday cause i got to many heatherns to line out for tv's dime novels, golf, short sleeves, unauthorized vacations and joinin other orginizations besides mine!
i also preach against being rich and being good looking.

[jaxfam6]

This is the most bunch of nonsense i ever read!!
I preach again hair curlers and i dont curl my hair...mostly cause i dont have any
i preach again short skirts and i aint ever been tempted to play the bagpipes
i preach against church growth and that aint ever changed me
i preach against fishin on sunday and i never have been tempted to fish on sunday cause i got to many heatherns to line out for tv's dime novels, golf, short sleeves, unauthorized vacations and joinin other orginizations besides mine!
i also preach against being rich and being good looking.

There are also the opposites to this particular rule. They preach against nothing that they have a problem with. So looks like your issues are audltery/fornication, gambling, homosexuality, makeup,,,,

:)

[Kutless]

Well I guess because, using your words, it's a "kingdom" and not a democracy. There is a structure of authority and according to Ephesians 4 those who in what has been termed the "five-fold" have been given to the saints to "perfect them" for the work of the ministry.

If you reduce it to simple terms, the instructor always has more authority than the student.



No "blame" place in my post just an understanding of responsibility within the Kingdom

A Pastor has FAR more responsibility than those who they are responsible for. BUT, what many Christians don't realize is that they have a responsibility to pray for the person with whom they are under authority.


Heb 13:17-18
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
18 Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly. (KJV)



You have a way of inserting words that were never used. Do you have an issue with authority?

Mark 10:44
44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
(KJV)

Those who truly rise to higher levels of authority become more of a servant.I think we nee to be extremely cautious here when placing the role of a pastor to such a lofty position. Unfortunately I think this is what we do in many cases.

Even after only being mentioned once in the Bible it is tauted as the highest position in the church. When in scripture we see its just one of the 5-fold ministry (another unbiblical term).

[MissBrattified]

jaxfam, I have noticed that.

However, we should be careful about drawing conclusions, because I have also seen pastors get up and address things over and over--because it was a very real problem among the saints.

This is a conclusion better drawn in hindsight, IMO.

[ogatt]

There are also the opposites to this particular rule. They preach against nothing that they have a problem with. So looks like your issues are audltery/fornication, gambling, homosexuality, makeup,,,,

:)

thats the problem with the heatherns in the church today EDUCATION. The done learned enough book learnin that they want to analize the preacher. when i preach against TV(every service) even tho no one has one It aint because i spent 30 minutes in the electronics department at Wal Mart I


But you do have a point. I preach against meaness and bad spirits. I also preach against marbles.
read it John 3-7 Gotta stay in the word. Especially the part about vipers and hippocrits

[RandyWayne]

I think we nee to be extremely cautious here when placing the role of a pastor to such a lofty position. Unfortunately I think this is what we do in many cases.

Even after only being mentioned once in the Bible it is tauted as the highest position in the church. When in scripture we see its just one of the 5-fold ministry (another unbiblical term).

Often the position is (mistakenly) compared to that of the prophets and Kings of ancient Israel. This is where the "touch not my anointed" is always taken so horribly out of context.

[gloryseeker]

I think we need to be extremely cautious here when placing the role of a pastor to such a lofty position. Unfortunately I think this is what we do in many cases.

Unfortunately, you are right. But the "lofty" position is man's position derived from carnally thinking people. You will always have this from both perspectives. Preachers who think they are above and saints who place preachers above.

When you have a true biblical church with people who have submitted hearts to God and His Word then each will understand the positions and responsibilities of authority, which deals more with servant hood than master hood.


Even after only being mentioned once in the Bible it is tauted as the highest position in the church. When in scripture we see its just one of the 5-fold ministry (another unbiblical term).

Well the "5-fold" is mentioned more than once in the NT, there are many references to the "positions" of the five fold and it does carry with it the highest realm of authority within God's structure under Himself as Lord and King and His Word, which is equivalent with His name.

On the flip side of that, most use the terms incorrectly. We call the person who leads a ministry as a "Pastor" and a person who travels and preaches an "Evangelist," etc. This is incorrect.

These are "giftings" not positions. Many so called "Pastors" are not even called, they have just pursued a career in ministry. Call them "Pastor" if you want, but that doesn't make them one.

Of those who are called and lead a church some actually stand in the office of a Pastor, some the office of an Apostle, some an office of a Prophet, etc. That's Ephesians 4 states, "and he gave some..., and some..., and some..."

Because we have failed to recognize the gift that is in our lives we have failed to have drawn from the anointing that God has given to us to mature us so that we can effectively do the work of the ministry.

[gloryseeker]

Often the position is (mistakenly) compared to that of the prophets and Kings of ancient Israel. This is where the "touch not my anointed" is always taken so horribly out of context.

I totally agree with you that the scripture about "touch not my anointed" is taken out of context, in fact I would say that it applies more to those in the ministry than those who are not in the ministries.

Too many of those in positions of ministry have adversely touched God's children and will stand in judgment for it.

However, you also said:

ften the position is (mistakenly) compared to that of the prophets and Kings of ancient Israel

This is a Kingdom and it is about "kings" and "priests." Notice the following:

1 Pet 2:9
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (KJV)

Rev 1:6
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (KJV)

In Revelations the only two things described that Jesus has made us is either a king or a priest, which is a study in itself. Within the Priestly anointing there are Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers.

[Kutless]

Glory Seeker, I agree with the points you have made for the most part.

In looking at Luke 22:25 "lordship over them" translated in greek as jurisdiction. And then Jesus saying...."But ye shall not be so"

Also I believe "pastor" is only translated once as "pastor" the rest it is sheppard. Is there not signifigance to where it was listed as pastor?

What do you consider the role of a sheppard?

[Kutless]

Unfortunately, you are right. But the "lofty" position is man's position derived from carnally thinking people. You will always have this from both perspectives. Preachers who think they are above and saints who place preachers above.

When you have a true biblical church with people who have submitted hearts to God and His Word then each will understand the positions and responsibilities of authority, which deals more with servant hood than master hood.




Well the "5-fold" is mentioned more than once in the NT, there are many references to the "positions" of the five fold and it does carry with it the highest realm of authority within God's structure under Himself as Lord and King and His Word, which is equivalent with His name.

On the flip side of that, most use the terms incorrectly. We call the person who leads a ministry as a "Pastor" and a person who travels and preaches an "Evangelist," etc. This is incorrect.

These are "giftings" not positions. Many so called "Pastors" are not even called, they have just pursued a career in ministry. Call them "Pastor" if you want, but that doesn't make them one.

Of those who are called and lead a church some actually stand in the office of a Pastor, some the office of an Apostle, some an office of a Prophet, etc. That's Ephesians 4 states, "and he gave some..., and some..., and some..."

Because we have failed to recognize the gift that is in our lives we have failed to have drawn from the anointing that God has given to us to mature us so that we can effectively do the work of the ministry.one more thing are you saying here that scripture shows the pastor as the highest realm of authority or the 5-fold as a whole?

[gloryseeker]

one more thing are you saying here that scripture shows the pastor as the highest realm of authority or the 5-fold as a whole?

I see the office of the Pastor as part of the 5-fold. I don't view one as higher than another. Furthermore, I believe that those who are in the 5-fold should also be submitted to another in the 5-fold. I don't believe in lone rangers.

Too many in ministry think that they are it and it has hurt them. We are a body, we are all connected and are to all be submitted one to another.

So for a specific answer to your question I am referring to the 5-fold as a whole.

The "Pastor" of our church really functions in more of the office of an Apostle. His "Pastor" who is also called pastor operates more in the office of an Apostle. That persons "Pastor" who is also called pastor operates more in the office of a Prophet. His "Pastor" operates more in the office of a "Teacher"

Titles means nothing, gifts mean everything.

[Kutless]

I see the office of the Pastor as part of the 5-fold. I don't view one as higher than another. Furthermore, I believe that those who are in the 5-fold should also be submitted to another in the 5-fold. I don't believe in lone rangers.

Too many in ministry think that they are it and it has hurt them. We are a body, we are all connected and are to all be submitted one to another.

So for a specific answer to your question I am referring to the 5-fold as a whole.

The "Pastor" of our church really functions in more of the office of an Apostle. His "Pastor" who is also called pastor operates more in the office of an Apostle. That persons "Pastor" who is also called pastor operates more in the office of a Prophet. His "Pastor" operates more in the office of a "Teacher"

Titles means nothing, gifts mean everything.why did Jesus say "Ye shall not be so" in Luke?

[Kutless]

Is there any assembly that you know of where the pastor is not elevated to the highest authoritative position? And is that scriptural?

[gloryseeker]

Is there any assembly that you know of where the pastor is not elevated to the highest authoritative position? And is that scriptural?

Sure, many of the house church structures make everyone equal. There is a church just across the street from I am right now and there is no such thing as a full time pastor. The have a ministry staff of about 10 and they are all just one of the guys.

Everyone calls the Pastor by his first name, Darren.

I keep saying the same thing, but I think that it is key. It's not the title, it's the gift.

My Pastor's name is Ken. If he is "Ken" to me, than all that I will draw out of him is from the natural. However, if he is "pastor" to me (I'm not talking about names and titles I am talking about position) then I can draw on his ministry gift and God will speak through him to me.

When you focus on the person you are going to find faults, when you focus on the gifting you can move past personalities and find the anointing that will set you free - that's the position of authority.

A true Pastor is going to help you be successful, not tell you what to do. That's carnal authority, spiritual authority is liberating.

[gloryseeker]

Glory Seeker, I agree with the points you have made for the most part.

In looking at Luke 22:25 "lordship over them" translated in greek as jurisdiction. And then Jesus saying...."But ye shall not be so"

Also I believe "pastor" is only translated once as "pastor" the rest it is sheppard. Is there not signifigance to where it was listed as pastor?

What do you consider the role of a sheppard?

I mentioned it in one of the other posts but "lordship" as mentioned in this scripture is man's (carnal) authority. Phil 2:12 tells us that we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

It is not man's responsibility to demand obedience. Demanded obedience is not obedience at all. God does not force us to be obedient who does a "Pastor" or anyone else think they are to force obedience.

We serve God willingly out of a pure heart. Therefore, the gift of a Shepherd is to lead, feed, and correct based on the Word of God. Correction is far different then demanding compliance.

If I start doing wrong and my Pastor does not bring biblical correction to me then he will stand responsible for that. If I do wrong and he brings biblical correction to me and I don't listen then he is free.

In the end I have the responsibility of my life and salvation, but he has a gift that brings the anointing into my life in greater degrees.

God will love you all the way to hell and so should Pastors. They are to lead not push. Those who are always trying to push are either totally insecure in their own calling or are not called in the first place.

[Praxeas]

I totally agree with you that the scripture about "touch not my anointed" is taken out of context, in fact I would say that it applies more to those in the ministry than those who are not in the ministries.

Too many of those in positions of ministry have adversely touched God's children and will stand in judgment for it.

I think the idea of "the ministry" to begin with is sadly misused by most of Christiandom and is a left over of the Catholic idea of clergy/laity teaching...

I don't believe there is a special class within the church of the haves and have nots....We are ALL called. We are ALL given gifts. We are ALL a kingdom of priests. We are ALL given the Spirit of God and thus "you shall receive power....and you shall be witnesses unto me".

WE are all called to pray for one another...not just a special class of minsters within the body of Christ. We are ALL called to serve. Thus we are ALL the anointed of God. We may not all be anointed to do the same exact work, but if you have the Spirit of God you have the anointing of God on you.

[RandyWayne]

What he said.

[Blaylock]

I can fully understand what you are all talking about. I am a Pastor and have the same problem with preaching with things that I struggle with. I mean this is difficult for me to talk about but I fell honesty will help. I struggle with being really good looking and preach against being really good looking all the time.

[Jack Shephard]

I can fully understand what you are all talking about. I am a Pastor and have the same problem with preaching with things that I struggle with. I mean this is difficult for me to talk about but I fell honesty will help. I struggle with being really good looking and preach against being really good looking all the time.

You might to preach against Pride too. LOL:ursofunny

[gloryseeker]

why did Jesus say "Ye shall not be so" in Luke?

The answer is the context of the text...Lordship.


Luke 22:25-27
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
(KJV)

In the Kingdom, authority comes through servanthood. In addition Kingdom authority is not the same as carnal authority (lordship).

[Praxeas]

I can fully understand what you are all talking about. I am a Pastor and have the same problem with preaching with things that I struggle with. I mean this is difficult for me to talk about but I fell honesty will help. I struggle with being really good looking and preach against being really good looking all the time.
Wow....talk about God sending someone a strong delusion.... :ursofunny

[jaxfam6]

thats the problem with the heatherns in the church today EDUCATION. The done learned enough book learnin that they want to analize the preacher. when i preach against TV(every service) even tho no one has one It aint because i spent 30 minutes in the electronics department at Wal Mart I


But you do have a point. I preach against meaness and bad spirits. I also preach against marbles.
read it John 3-7 Gotta stay in the word. Especially the part about vipers and hippocrits

:ursofunny

[jaxfam6]

I think the idea of "the ministry" to begin with is sadly misused by most of Christiandom and is a left over of the Catholic idea of clergy/laity teaching...

I don't believe there is a special class within the church of the haves and have nots....We are ALL called. We are ALL given gifts. We are ALL a kingdom of priests. We are ALL given the Spirit of God and thus "you shall receive power....and you shall be witnesses unto me".

WE are all called to pray for one another...not just a special class of minsters within the body of Christ. We are ALL called to serve. Thus we are ALL the anointed of God. We may not all be anointed to do the same exact work, but if you have the Spirit of God you have the anointing of God on you.

Agreed

[jaxfam6]

Wow....talk about God sending someone a strong delusion.... :ursofunny

I think that was more like an Hallucination.

[True Believer]

Rich Little??????? Man you must be old! :bliss

:laffatu:ursofunny

[gloryseeker]

This is the most bunch of nonsense i ever read!!
I preach again hair curlers and i dont curl my hair...mostly cause i dont have any
i preach again short skirts and i aint ever been tempted to play the bagpipes
i preach against church growth and that aint ever changed me
i preach against fishin on sunday and i never have been tempted to fish on sunday cause i got to many heatherns to line out for tv's dime novels, golf, short sleeves, unauthorized vacations and joinin other orginizations besides mine!
i also preach against being rich and being good looking.

I sure do hope that you are really NOT a preacher...

[Kutless]

I can fully understand what you are all talking about. I am a Pastor and have the same problem with preaching with things that I struggle with. I mean this is difficult for me to talk about but I fell honesty will help. I struggle with being really good looking and preach against being really good looking all the time.Funny.....bold face lie....but funny

[Kutless]

The answer is the context of the text...Lordship.


Luke 22:25-27
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
(KJV)

In the Kingdom, authority comes through servanthood. In addition Kingdom authority is not the same as carnal authority (lordship).I appreciate your imput GS.

Still I'm seeing striking similarities in UC pastors and catholic priest. Not so for sure if that was the intentions of Christ. Look at these examples.

Acts 14:23 They appointed elders (plural) for them in each assembly

Titus 1:5 appoint elders in every city

who answered when there was controversy.....elders and brethren Acts 15

I'm not seeing pastoral final authority here.

[gloryseeker]

I appreciate your imput GS.

Still I'm seeing striking similarities in UC pastors and catholic priest. Not so for sure if that was the intentions of Christ. Look at these examples.

Acts 14:23 They appointed elders (plural) for them in each assembly

Titus 1:5 appoint elders in every city

who answered when there was controversy.....elders and brethren Acts 15

I'm not seeing pastoral final authority here.

IMO and" how I see the scriptures, the "Pastor" (use the term loosely) should cast vision, lead the flock and shepherd the elders. The elders should Shepherd the people.

Amost 3:3 asks the question of how can two walk together unless they agree. You need one person to lead otherwise you are going to get stuck. Like the old joke says, "If Moses would have had a committee they would still be in Egypt."

You mention a the UC (I assume a denomination), anytime you have a denomination you have to have an organizational structure for it to work. It's the nature of the beast. I'm not against denominations, but they are man made and because of how they have to operate in order to function correctly, many times the Spirit is quenched by their rules and regulations.

Therefore, yes you probably do see similarities between those preachers and catholic priests.

However, it doesn't mean that the ministers are not called. God can still use them, but they have submitted themselves to an organizational structure and they must function as instructed (although some use their position as a bully pulpit).

[Timmy]

You mention a the UC (I assume a denomination)

You must be new. UC is the abbreviation used for UnChangeable, er, ah, I mean UltraConservative. :lol

[gloryseeker]

You must be new. UC is the abbreviation used for UnChangeable, er, ah, I mean UltraConservative. :lol

:laffatu

[Kutless]

IMO and" how I see the scriptures, the "Pastor" (use the term loosely) should cast vision, lead the flock and shepherd the elders. The elders should Shepherd the people.

Amost 3:3 asks the question of how can two walk together unless they agree. You need one person to lead otherwise you are going to get stuck. Like the old joke says, "If Moses would have had a committee they would still be in Egypt."

You mention a the UC (I assume a denomination), anytime you have a denomination you have to have an organizational structure for it to work. It's the nature of the beast. I'm not against denominations, but they are man made and because of how they have to operate in order to function correctly, many times the Spirit is quenched by their rules and regulations.

Therefore, yes you probably do see similarities between those preachers and catholic priests.

However, it doesn't mean that the ministers are not called. God can still use them, but they have submitted themselves to an organizational structure and they must function as instructed (although some use their position as a bully pulpit).I would enjoy reading the scripture that shows the pastor as head of the elders.

I believe I'm remembering Moses did have a committee. Can't find the ref. right now but wasn't authority to judge handed to a bunch of folks? And truly the Israelites may have stayed in Egypt had it not been for Aaron.

Just because they are called and are submitting to some sort of structure does not give them power to be the final authority. I believe we both agree that is power given to the Almighty.

So far I've seen many orginizational structures fail or live at the brink of failure. I have recently witnessed a group of men split the so-called mothership. What a great example. Organizational structure had a beginning and I don't believe the one we follow started in the Word. I am going to dig a little deeper.

I'm interested in positions held like.....meturgman, and the bench of three.

[Joshua]

My pastor who has gone on now used to say that if a preacher had a hobby horse that he constantly rode every time he spoke or every time you were in a meeting with him, odds were he was having trouble with that particular issue. And I observed that he was right on numerous occasions.

I've seen times when God gave a minister a message and he went around preaching it for a time or a season and then the minister would move on to something else. But, in my opinion, the ones you have to worry about are the ones that keep beating on the same old thing year after year after year after year. That's when I begin to suspect that preacher may actually be stuck on that particular problem.

[jaxfam6]

My pastor who has gone on now used to say that if a preacher had a hobby horse that he constantly rode every time he spoke or every time you were in a meeting with him, odds were he was having trouble with that particular issue. And I observed that he was right on numerous occasions.

I've seen times when God gave a minister a message and he went around preaching it for a time or a season and then the minister would move on to something else. But, in my opinion, the ones you have to worry about are the ones that keep beating on the same old thing year after year after year after year. That's when I begin to suspect that preacher may actually be stuck on that particular problem.

I agree whole heartedly

[SOUNWORTHY]

I remember Bro. Tenny speaking to one of our classes at CLC back in the sixties and he made the statement: Preaching is confessing.

[SOUNWORTHY]

I remember Bro. Tenny speaking to one of our classes at CLC back in the sixties and he made the statement: Preaching is confessing.

[SOUNWORTHY]

I remember Bro. Tenny speaking to one of our classes at CLC back in the sixties and he made the statement: Preaching is confessing.

[SOUNWORTHY]

How many of you have been in a church where the preacher seems to get on one subject and :beatdeadhorse?
From personal experience I have seen my father harp on adultery and low and behold that was exactly what he was having problems with. I have seen them harp on money and it seems they would do everything in their power to get more money for themselves. Every stupid get rich quick scam that came along they would jump on board. I have see preachers who do nothing but preach against one subject only to find out that they had an issue with that sin themselves.

Just curious if others have seen similar.

I know one that preachers against homosexuality about every service, or at least he used to, and now that I look back at it I am starting to worry about him. I pray very much that he doesn't have that issue himself but if he did it would not surprise me from my experiences.


BTW not for the purpose of telling who preached what and what their problem was. Just curious if others have had similar experiences.

I remember Bro. Tenny speaking to one of our classes at CLC back in the sixties and he made the statement: Preaching is confessing.

[jaxfam6]

That is probably the truth