How SEPARATE was JESUS?

[SDG]

The religious elite of Jesus' day believed that their degree of separatism was the clearest demarcation of their holiness. They are described as follows by one writer:

.... in 135 BC, there was a split within the Hasidem. Some went off into politics and the others rededicated themselves with a pledge they would never depart from the Word of God and they would be God’s people in obedience to Him. They were nicknamed “The Separatist.” That is the word “Pharisee.” It means “the separated one.” They never called themselves Pharisees. That was a nickname people gave them. They had indeed separated themselves to God and separated themselves to keep His law, but they became fanatical. They would keep every law of God in their great zeal.

They called themselves “The Association.” They said they were associated with God’s Word and with those who love God’s Word. They did not associate with those who did not have their dedication to the Word of God. This is where it gets dangerous. Now comes the change for the worse. Here they are becoming narrow, because now they not only separate from the world, they separate themselves from their brothers and sisters who are Jews. They say, “You are not good enough for us. We are the Association.”



To get into the Association, initiation would take from 30 days to a year. You would have to study before you make your final vow to be a member of The Association. They saw themselves as the godly among the ungodly. They saw themselves as the true people of God because of their obedience. To them everyone else was phony. When they met each other on the street they would say, “Shalom, neighbor.” This was because the Scripture said to love your “neighbor” as yourself. They said what that really means is that you would love all members of the Association as yourself. I can hate everyone else because they are not like us. We are the neighbors. We are The Association.


So they were really getting serious. They asked themselves, “How do we go about keeping the law?” They brought in a thing called “the fences.” The fences were to stop you from even getting close to breaking the law. They had a lot of fences, rules and regulations. It grew to be over 2,000 fences. They forgot what the command was because they were so taken up with the fences. They forgot these fences that kept you from breaking the law were man-made and they called them the Word of God, too. Manmade traditions became as important as the Law itself.


Compare this to their criticisms of Jesus -

Matthew:

8For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners.See also Luke 7:33-34.

Note that the accusation was so rampant that two Gospel writers, Matthew and Luke find it necessary to address it.

For the Pharisees to call him a drunkard ... is it a stretch to infer that he was often seen sitting w/ others who were drinking alcoholic beverages ?

Also:
Later that day, Jesus ate at Levi's house. There were many tax collectors and other bad people eating there with Jesus and his followers. There were many of these people that followed Jesus. The teachers of the law (they were Pharisees) saw Jesus eating with these tax collectors and other bad people. They asked Jesus' followers, "Why does he (Jesus) eat with tax collectors and sinners?" Jesus heard this, and he said to them, "Healthy people don't need a doctor. It is the sick people that need a doctor. I did not come to invite good people. I came to invite sinners." (ERV)Now the Pharisees, of course, in one sense were right. According to the Law, an Israelite who placed himself in contact with ritually unclean people became unclean as well (Leviticus 15:7; Numbers 19:22).

Even Jesus disciples marveled and questioned why he would seemingly break rabbinic tradition and law and would sit and chat w/ the unclean ... especially females.

After they saw him speaking to the Samaritan woman at the well ... they marveled.

John 4:27 Just then his disciples returned and were surprised to find him talking with a woman. But no one asked, "What do you want?" or "Why are you talking with her?"

One writer relates, "They knew Jesus had clearly violated the rabbinic oral law, which said, “Let the words of the Law be burned rather than committed to a woman . . .” (Sotah), and Hebrew men in Jesus’ day were also taught, “One is not as much as to greet a woman” (Berakhoth)."

He even allowed a woman of ill-repute, to wash his feet with her tears, kiss his feet, dry them w/ her hair and anoint them w/ oil .

There is no doubt that this was scandalous to many.

Here are my questions ....

Why did Jesus spend so much time with some of the most vile sinners of His day?

Was Jesus' Holiness contagious? ... Why is it he was able to seemingly "fellowship" w/ darkness being the Light of the World?

Would Jesus' method of evangelism and Holiness living be accepted among modern day Apostolicdom?

How separate was Jesus?

What does it mean when the Word says ... "Be ye separate"?

[Jekyll]

The Apostolic Church, more specifically, UPCI and WWPF practice a heretical separatism, waaaaaaaay different than from Jesus, right?

[SDG]

The Apostolic Church, more specifically, UPCI and WWPF practice a heretical separatism, waaaaaaaay different than from Jesus, right?

If thou sayest.

Would you agree that separatist-based Holiness is a main focus among many in these circles?

Is this the same degree of separatism practiced by our model and Savior?

How much time do we spend w/ the most vile of our day? (A question for myself)

[Cindy]

If we don't go where the sinners are how are they going to hear the Good News that there is a Savior, Jesus?

[SDG]

If we don't go where the sinners are how are they going to hear the Good News that there is a Savior, Jesus?

But sis .... the sinners are usually involved in worldly amusements and in places prohibited by our manuals.

Did Jesus attend venues that would not be permitted by our manuals?

[Cindy]

Our manual is suppose to be the Word. And He said to do it. Ya know they aren't gonna come knockin on our door. We gotta knock on theirs. You know I think fear is what causes some to not want to go and tell, maybe fear that someone will see them with sinners and think they are sinning.

[SDG]

Our manual is suppose to be the Word. And He said to do it. Ya know they aren't gonna come knockin on our door. We gotta knock on theirs. You know I think fear is what causes some to not want to go and tell, maybe fear that someone will see them with sinners and think they are sinning.

Do you think we've mastered refraining from evil but have lost opportunities to do good ... maybe w/ eternal consequences?

Have our fences enclosed us to the point that we can't shine our light?

[SDG]

Matthew 5:14-16 - You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your father in heaven.

[Jekyll]

But sis .... the sinners are usually involved in worldly amusements and in places prohibited by our manuals.

Did Jesus attend venues that would not be permitted by our manuals?
OUR manuals? That's laughable. I guess them thar UPCI and WWPF churches are too separated and holy to reach the lost.


:bored

[Cindy]

Do you think we've mastered refraining from evil but have lost opportunities to do good ... maybe w/ eternal consequences?

Have our fences enclosed us to the point that we can't shine our light?

Having been on both sides of the fence to some degree they have. And if we have disobeyed the Word, yes we lost opportunities with eternal consequences. We can shine our light but if we don't go out to do it, it's a very dim light. We are not suppose to hide our light, (sit on the pew). We are commanded to go and tell. Disobeying leads to lost souls and for that we will be held accountable.

[SDG]

OUR manuals? That's laughable. I guess them thar UPCI and WWPF churches are too separated and holy to reach the lost.


:bored

Well... Jek ...

let's take Talmadge French's number of Oneness Apostolics in the world of 20,000,000. Of course, not all of these saved Christians w/ all truth practice salvific holiness ... but for argument's sake let's say all 20 MILLION do.

There are at least 6 billion inhabitants on this planet ...

I'm not very good at math ... but my online calculator gives me this ratio ... of saved holiness believers to lost ungodly believers.


If they, THE WORLD'S ONENESS BELIEVERS, all are separated and holy enough to be counted as God's elect.... then that's about

z = 0.0333% of the world's population with FULL SALVATION ...

MEANING THERE IS AN ENORMOUS TASK BEFORE US TO SAVE AN UNGODLY WORLD W/ THE FULL TRUTH...

INCLUDING W/ THE DEGREE OF HOLINESS SEPARATION THAT SOME SAY MUST BE PRACTICED TO REMAIN SAVED.

The question begs to be asked ....

ARE WE DOING ENOUGH IN SPREADING THE WHOLE GOSPEL TO THE WHOLE WORLD?

Do you think this is laughable, Jekyll?

Then of course there is the issue of WPFers who feel those in the UPCI are lost because of their lack of separation.

[Nahum]

The religious elite of Jesus' day believed that their degree of separatism was the clearest demarcation of their holiness. They are described as follows by one writer:



Compare this to their criticisms of Jesus -

Matthew:
See also Luke 7:33-34.

Note that the accusation was so rampant that two Gospel writers, Matthew and Luke find it necessary to address it.

For the Pharisees to call him a drunkard ... is it a stretch to infer that he was often seen sitting w/ others who were drinking alcoholic beverages ?

Also:
Now the Pharisees, of course, in one sense were right. According to the Law, an Israelite who placed himself in contact with ritually unclean people became unclean as well (Leviticus 15:7; Numbers 19:22).

Even Jesus disciples marveled and questioned why he would seemingly break rabbinic tradition and law and would sit and chat w/ the unclean ... especially females.

After they saw him speaking to the Samaritan woman at the well ... they marveled.



One writer relates, "They knew Jesus had clearly violated the rabbinic oral law, which said, “Let the words of the Law be burned rather than committed to a woman . . .” (Sotah), and Hebrew men in Jesus’ day were also taught, “One is not as much as to greet a woman” (Berakhoth)."

He even allowed a woman of ill-repute, to wash his feet with her tears, kiss his feet, dry them w/ her hair and anoint them w/ oil .

There is no doubt that this was scandalous to many.

Here are my questions ....

Why did Jesus spend so much time with some of the most vile sinners of His day?

Was Jesus' Holiness contagious? ... Why is it he was able to seemingly "fellowship" w/ darkness being the Light of the World?

Would Jesus' method of evangelism and Holiness living be accepted among modern day Apostolicdom?

How separate was Jesus?

What does it mean when the Word says ... "Be ye separate"?


Daniel, in all seriousness, my epiphany happened when I found out what the word "Pharisee" meant. When I began to study their practices.

Jesus railed against them. Not because they believed in holiness, but because they used their version of holiness as a weapon. He went so far as to say they "shut up Heaven."

I will say there is no religious body in the world closer to the Pharisees of Jesus day than modern Oneness Pentecostals.

[SDG]

Daniel, in all seriousness, my epiphany happened when I found out what the word "Pharisee" meant. When I began to study their practices.

Jesus railed against them. Not because they believed in holiness, but because they used their version of holiness as a weapon. He went so far as to say they "shut up Heaven."

I will say there is no religious body in the world closer to the Pharisees of Jesus day than modern Oneness Pentecostals.

God help us if we in any way are shutting up heaven.

[Brother Price]

God help us if we in any way are shutting up heaven.
Only the self religious shut Heaven up with false doctrine, lies, and man-made unbiblical standards. Those of The Way open wide the gates, and welcome whosoever will to come!

[HeavenlyOne]

Daniel, this is an excellent thread. This issue is one that saddens me every day. I see things happen over and over again that shouldn't happen and I have to wonder if God is pleased or is He is crying with me.

There needs to be a change.

[Sam]

...
I will say there is no religious body in the world closer to the Pharisees of Jesus day than modern Oneness Pentecostals.


oh boy,
now ya went and done it.

watch out for them flying stones.

[Subdued]

What does it mean when the Word says ... "Be ye separate"?


I think the following describes how we need to need to live in order to "be separate."

1 Thessalonians 4:1-12 (KJV)

1Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
9But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
10And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
11And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

Also:

Galatians 5:19-23 (KJV)

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

[Baron1710]

Compare this to their criticisms of Jesus -

Matthew:
See also Luke 7:33-34.

Note that the accusation was so rampant that two Gospel writers, Matthew and Luke find it necessary to address it.

For the Pharisees to call him a drunkard ... is it a stretch to infer that he was often seen sitting w/ others who were drinking alcoholic beverages ?
[/FONT]

You have to get the idea that Jesus actually enjoyed fellowshipping with the unsaved. He was a friend of the sinners. You don't make friends by showing up at the local sports bar and preaching to everyone. I am not suggesting that Jesus winked at sin, but he seemed to save his sermons for the church people of His day. I think if we could see a video clip of Jesus during these times he would be laughing and smiling, not frowning and condemning.

[Sister Alvear]

Jesus never condemned...except those that did condemn...

[SDG]

I think the following describes how we need to need to live in order to "be separate."

1 Thessalonians 4:1-12 (KJV)

1Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
9But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
10And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
11And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

Also:

Galatians 5:19-23 (KJV)

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

These all appear to be inward attitudes that reflect outwardly... resulting from God's Holy Spirit ...

Where is the clothesline list, Paul?

[Scott Hutchinson]

Jesus did mingle with sinners without participating in sin.We can befriend sinners without being sinful.
We can't minister to sinners if we are involved in a sinful lifestyle ourselves,but we can't minister to the lost,if we confine ourselves away from them.
We can mix and mingle with sinners without compromising our convictions,but we must be where sinners are to be a beacon of grace to them.

[Subdued]

These all appear to be inward attitudes that reflect outwardly... resulting from God's Holy Spirit ...

Where is the clothesline list, Paul?

How can we reach the lost if we completely separate ourselves? It's important to walk side-by-side with sinners, while living holy (allowing the HG to transform us into people who are able to maintain the inward attitudes outlined in these scriptures), in order to be a light.

I don't see a clothesline list.

[Ferd]

Ah yes those evil Pharisees. Preaching standards and all that. being mean to people. just making everyone be more holy than Jesus.

well, lets see what Jesus ACTUALLY said about them.

Matthew 23
1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

It wasnt the message that Jesus objected to, it was their hypocracy! they didnt live what they preached. And what they did do, they did for the approal of man (which is in direct opposition to what Seperation is all about.)

Once again, DanA steps up and cracks a foul ball while the crowd cheers his prowess at the plate!

DanA you have done a fantastic job of creating a strawman and burnining conservitives in effigy. you are to be congratulated.

[SDG]

Ah yes those evil Pharisees. Preaching standards and all that. being mean to people. just making everyone be more holy than Jesus.

well, lets see what Jesus ACTUALLY said about them.

Matthew 23
1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

It wasnt the message that Jesus objected to, it was their hypocracy! they didnt live what they preached. And what they did do, they did for the approal of man (which is in direct opposition to what Seperation is all about.)

Once again, DanA steps up and cracks a foul ball while the crowd cheers his prowess at the plate!

DanA you have done a fantastic job of creating a strawman and burnining conservitives in effigy. you are to be congratulated.

There is much to be said about their hypocrisy, Ferd, agreed. And did tell his disciples that they should do greater works than they .... however,

Jesus did not see their hypocrisy as just living double minded lives.

Clearly their efforts to be seen of men and separate themselves based on performance .. took them to knew elitist heights ... they're inordinate focus on the outside also peturbed Jesus, my good friend.

Their reliance on extrabiblical man-made traditions also caught the ire of the Master.

The author of Jesus Creed (http://www.jesuscreed.org/), Scott McKnight also describes the totality of their hypocrisy like this ....


"So, this permits us to see the Pharisees as those who both believed in the Torah but who knew it needed interpretation, applications, and it needed to do so along careful lines of thought and procedure.

If you want to use the terms of today, then the Sadducees were the political conservatives and the Pharisees the political liberals — in the legal sense (both were conservative morally).

Jesus agreed with neither? Where would you put him in the first century legal struggle of “how do we live under the Torah?”

"Put together, Jesus accused the Pharisees for “hypocrisy” because they had abused their teaching authority by teaching false things, not living according to what they taught, and for the desire for power. In addition, their teaching was a focus on minor issues to the neglect of major issues.

... they flattened the Torah into a listing of God’s will while Jesus saw love of God and love of others as the center of that Torah. If the Pharisees saw love as one of the commandments, however important, Jesus saw love as central and everything as expressive of that love.

To be “hypocrite” is to be a false teacher who leads both self and others astray from the will of God. The term should not be limited to “contradiction between appearance and reality.”

Jesus and the Pharisees got into it with one another at a deep, deep level because (1) both were committed to the revelation of God in the Torah, but (2) they differed radically on how to interpret that Torah. Let this be clear, though: they did not differ that it was the Word of God, they did not differ on the importance of Abraham, Moses, David or the Prophets. They differed, and you will know this if you know about The Jesus Creed, because Jesus thought the Torah should be interpreted in light of Deut 6:4-9 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Deut+6%3A4-9) and Leviticus 19:18 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Leviticus+19%3A18) (Love God, Love others).

It is simplistic to talk like this, but it is essentially on target to say that Jesus thought the Torah was about loving God and loving others, and the Pharisees saw the Torah more as a comprehensive listing of God’s will.



Here is what Jesus said to the Pharisees (Matthew 15:1-9):

"Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, Why do your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders?¹ (http://www.arzone.org/arzone/pharisee.php#Footnote1) For they wash not their hands when they eat bread. But he answered and said to them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death. But you say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever you might be profited by me; And honor not his father or mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. You hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, This people draw nigh unto me with their mouths, and honor me with their lips; but their hearts are far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines [i.e. God-given truth] the commandments of men."


So Ferd, we can twist this into a liberal vs. conservative debate ... and you can do your best to pretend you're some kind of moderate ...

but there is a bigger picture to what set Jesus apart from those who taught EXTRA-BIBLICAL SEPARATIST holiness theology ... the purpose of this thread ...

But, yes.... he did have a problem w/ man made tradition component of their message.

If clothesline holiness (misperceived as"separation") is not for the approval of man than why is it entire orgs are formed based on one man's definition of holiness vs. another's?

*** As Dan, high steps around the bases after smacking another laser w/ a stewardess on it ... into McCovey Cove ***

[DividedThigh]

i believe it is our job to be in the world but not of the world, his light in our hearts will shine to the lost and they will respond to him , in us, dt:kickcan

[SDG]

Well... Jek ...

let's take Talmadge French's number of Oneness Apostolics in the world of 20,000,000. Of course, not all of these saved Christians w/ all truth practice salvific holiness ... but for argument's sake let's say all 20 MILLION do.

There are at least 6 billion inhabitants on this planet ...

I'm not very good at math ... but my online calculator gives me this ratio ... of saved holiness believers to lost ungodly believers.


If they, THE WORLD'S ONENESS BELIEVERS, all are separated and holy enough to be counted as God's elect.... then that's about

z = 0.0333% of the world's population with FULL SALVATION ...

MEANING THERE IS AN ENORMOUS TASK BEFORE US TO SAVE AN UNGODLY WORLD W/ THE FULL TRUTH...

INCLUDING W/ THE DEGREE OF HOLINESS SEPARATION THAT SOME SAY MUST BE PRACTICED TO REMAIN SAVED.

The question begs to be asked ....

ARE WE DOING ENOUGH IN SPREADING THE WHOLE GOSPEL TO THE WHOLE WORLD?

Do you think this is laughable, Jekyll?

Then of course there is the issue of WPFers who feel those in the UPCI are lost because of their lack of separation.


Bump for Jekyll.

[Ferd]

i believe it is our job to be in the world but not of the world, his light in our hearts will shine to the lost and they will respond to him , in us, dt:kickcan

then you are a sacrimentalist according to DanA of the Danites.

[Ferd]

There is much to be said about their hypocrisy, Ferd, agreed. And did tell his disciples that they should do greater works than they .... however,

Jesus did not see their hypocrisy as just living double minded lives.

Clearly their efforts to be seen of men and separate themselves based on performance .. took them to knew elitist heights ... they're inordinate focus on the outside also peturbed Jesus, my good friend.

Their reliance on extrabiblical man-made traditions also caught the ire of the Master.

The author of Jesus Creed (http://www.jesuscreed.org/), Scott McKnight also describes the totality of their hypocrisy like this ....



Here is what Jesus said to the Pharisees (Matthew 15:1-9):

"Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, Why do your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders?¹ (http://www.arzone.org/arzone/pharisee.php#Footnote1) For they wash not their hands when they eat bread. But he answered and said to them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death. But you say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever you might be profited by me; And honor not his father or mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. You hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, This people draw nigh unto me with their mouths, and honor me with their lips; but their hearts are far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines [i.e. God-given truth] the commandments of men."


So Ferd, we can twist this into a liberal vs. conservative debate ... and you can do your best to pretend you're some kind of moderate ...

but there is a bigger picture to what set Jesus apart from those who taught EXTRA-BIBLICAL SEPARATIST holiness theology ... the purpose of this thread ...

But, yes.... he did have a problem w/ man made tradition component of their message.

If clothesline holiness (misperceived as"separation") is not for the approval of man than why is it entire orgs are formed based on one man's definition of holiness vs. another's?

*** As Dan, high steps around the bases after smacking another laser w/ a stewardess on it ... into McCovey Cove ***


more strawman retoric.

DanA, the pharseeical issue was not extrabiblical holiness seperation. if anything they were acting in a grossly immodest and gaudy manner, including their dress to draw attention to themselves!

that is exactly OPPOSITE to any good teaching of seperation and holiness!

once again you twist what Holiness preachers preach and teach to suit your own agenda.

[Ferd]

So Ferd, we can twist this into a liberal vs. conservative debate ... and you can do your best to pretend you're some kind of moderate ...

but there is a bigger picture to what set Jesus apart from those who taught EXTRA-BIBLICAL SEPARATIST holiness theology ... the purpose of this thread ...

But, yes.... he did have a problem w/ man made tradition component of their message.

If clothesline holiness (misperceived as"separation") is not for the approval of man than why is it entire orgs are formed based on one man's definition of holiness vs. another's?

*** As Dan, high steps around the bases after smacking another laser w/ a stewardess on it ... into McCovey Cove ***


And you can pretend that this isnt an attempt to paint traditional Oneness Pentecostals as heritics all day long but it doesnt change what you are.

***Once again DanA and the Danites celebrates smacking another foul ball into the cheep seats.***

[DividedThigh]

then you are a sacrimentalist according to DanA of the Danites.

they can call me what they want ferd been living for him for 40 years, good enough, that isnt the worst thing i have been called, lol,dt:kickcan

[Nahum]

Daniel, in all seriousness, my epiphany happened when I found out what the word "Pharisee" meant. When I began to study their practices.

Jesus railed against them. Not because they believed in holiness, but because they used their version of holiness as a weapon. He went so far as to say they "shut up Heaven."

I will say there is no religious body in the world closer to the Pharisees of Jesus day than modern Oneness Pentecostals.

Bump for my friend, Ferd.

[Ferd]

Bump for my friend, Ferd.

PP, is that actually what Jesus said? because they used Holiness as a weapon? Or was it that they used their RELEGION as a weapon?

was their goal to be "holy and seperate" or to dominate by putting onus rules on people that they themselves wouldnt follow?

Look, I dont argue that some take things to extremes and make it impossible for folk to live for God. and those people are Whited Seplicurs just like Jesus said.

But this notion that the Pharasee's were evil because they taught holiness standars is absurd.

[SDG]

more strawman retoric.

DanA, the pharseeical issue was not extrabiblical holiness seperation. if anything they were acting in a grossly immodest and gaudy manner, including their dress to draw attention to themselves!

that is exactly OPPOSITE to any good teaching of seperation and holiness!

once again you twist what Holiness preachers preach and teach to suit your own agenda.

Eggh ... wrong again ... Ferd ... kudos on trying to compete in a triathlon in wheelchair today in defense of your institution.

But you have ignored the plain facts to the totality of the hypocrisy that bothered Christ about the Pharisee which includes their man-made traditions that he felt WERE NOT THE MESSAGE. Traditions they sincerely made to separate themselves "unto God".

He told them that they trangressed the commandment of God w/ the doctrines of men.

He had issue on the focus of their presentation of the Law also, Ferd.

Some of today's "good teaching on separation and holiness" focuses on the intricacies of apparel, adornment and other practices which usually have no scriptural support ... and practiced inconsistently ... while shutting heaven...

Today's "good teaching" also focuses on man-made traditions and the cultural philosophies of men who dress folks often in a gaudy manner ... that most would perceive as not balanced ... to fit their extrabibiblical views ... and snapshot of year's past.

The comparison is fair ... but I know the label stings.

[Ferd]

they can call me what they want ferd been living for him for 40 years, good enough, that isnt the worst thing i have been called, lol,dt:kickcan

as DanA's favorite sacrimentalist, I dont even care if you wear shorts!

[DividedThigh]

as DanA's favorite sacrimentalist, I dont even care if you wear shorts!

dont worry , i will wear my shorts in your honor, tomorrow it will hit 60 afte work, shorts, cool, dt:laffatu

[Ferd]

Eggh ... wrong again ... Ferd ... kudos on trying to compete in a triathlon in wheelchair today in defense of your institution.

But you have ignored the plain facts to the totality of the hypocrisy that bothered Christ about the Pharisee which includes their man-made traditions that he felt WERE NOT THE MESSAGE.

He told them that they trangressed the commandment of God w/ the doctrines of men.

He had issue on the focus of their presentation of the Law also, Ferd.

Some of today's "good teaching on separation and holiness" focuses on the intricacies of apparel, adornment and other practices which usually have no scriptural support ... and practiced inconsistently ... while shutting heaven...

Today's "good teaching" also focuses on man-made traditions and the cultural philosophies of men who dress folks often in a gaudy manner ... that most would perceive as not balanced ... to fit their extrabibiblical views ...

The comparison is fair ... but I know the label stings.


DanA, there are areas where we agree that some OPs have crossed a line in teaching docrtine of men. that is for sure. that is part of this discussion (which you didnt speak of until now).

but your charactorizaiton of all those that teach seperation as sacimentalist are Pharisees is disgusting.

lets not nibble around the edges DanA. Lets get to it. anyone who sugests anyone teaching seperation is a hariy tick!

that's what your point is.

As you say "some". meaning not much just some. But for you some means pretty much anyone who reads 1Cor11 and finds value.

[SDG]

Interestingly enough Ferd the most controversial blanket statement in this thread did not come me.

Did Ferd address this? ... no. Of course, not.

However, as always the root of your bitterness towards my posting becomes evident ...

Rather than address the question in my thread about the nature of Christ's separation you want to attack and marginalize this messenger. Villifying is not new to your circle.

Typical.

Once again I admire your passion to perpetuate teachings and extrabiblical traditions of the Borg.


I will say there is no religious body in the world closer to the Pharisees of Jesus day than modern Oneness Pentecostals.

[SDG]

Lets get to it. anyone who sugests anyone teaching seperation is a hariy tick!

that's what your point is. .

If this isn't hyperbolic rhetoric and ventroliquism ... I don't know what is.

I'm almost excited about you carrying the JP baton.

:bored

[Nahum]

I'm with Daniel on this one (don't keel over, people!).

The Pharisees, whom Jesus spent much time debating, did not even live up to their own standards. The truth is, no one could. But that didn't stop them from attempting to impose as many of them as possible.

My concern has always been the way we compete with others to see who can be the "holiest." The way we view the losers of the competition as Charismatic, loose, liberal and lost.

In doing so, we scatter the flock. We "shut up Heaven." We have developed so strong a religious sect that even Jesus Himself would not be welcome among us. Can you imagine the whispers and letter-writing campaigns if He were walking the earth today, visting with drunks, prostitutes and foul-mouths?

I mean, my goodness, we put people in HELL for silly things like beards. Can you imagine the fall-out stemming from someone seeing Jesus alone at the well with a woman of ill-repute?

Here is the difference between Jesus and ancient, and modern day, Pharisees.

They were scatterers. Always looking for ways to keep people out.

Jesus was a gatherer. Always looking to draw people close.

And the Pharisees hated Him for that.

It's the same today.

Show me a successful pastor and I promise you his greatest attribute will be that he is a gatherer.

Shockingly, some people will hate him because he is merciful and kind, longsuffering and tender.

He will be slandered as loose, compromising and worse.

Why?

Because the religious assassins have never gone away. That same exclusive Musketeering spirit lives in some of the "fence builders" of the twenty-first century church.

[Nahum]

Ah yes those evil Pharisees. Preaching standards and all that. being mean to people. just making everyone be more holy than Jesus.

well, lets see what Jesus ACTUALLY said about them.

Matthew 23
1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

It wasnt the message that Jesus objected to, it was their hypocracy! they didnt live what they preached. And what they did do, they did for the approal of man (which is in direct opposition to what Seperation is all about.)

Once again, DanA steps up and cracks a foul ball while the crowd cheers his prowess at the plate!

DanA you have done a fantastic job of creating a strawman and burnining conservitives in effigy. you are to be congratulated.

The Pharisees were evil, Ferd.

Jesus called them vipers.

I assume he meant that something in them was poisonous.

[DividedThigh]

fact is that the pharisees were evil and there teachings poisonous venom, but all ops are not pharisees, i be one and i am not, neither is my church and it is upc, our pastor is a moderate and reasonable fellow, i realize that is rare, dt:kickcan

[Ferd]

The Pharisees were evil, Ferd.

Jesus called them vipers.

I assume he meant that something in them was poisonous.

PP, there is not question that hte Pharisees were evil. but this bait and switch that is being used here is wrong too.

the Pharisees were evil because
1. they didnt live what they preached
2. they preached doctrines of men not of God
3. they sought high offices and used scripture to achieve it at the expence of others;
4. they made a pretense of their holiness by dressing gaudly.


pretty tombs full of rotting flesh is what they were. Anyone with that attitude today is equally evil and disgusting.


but that doesnt mean mainstream Oneness Pentecostals are Pharisees as DanA leader of the Danites suggests.

[Rico]

And you can pretend that this isnt an attempt to paint traditional Oneness Pentecostals as heritics all day long but it doesnt change what you are.

***Once again DanA and the Danites celebrates smacking another foul ball into the cheep seats.***

Ferd, you hit the nail right on the head. My dad has an old saying about being able to smell a turd a mile away............

[Ferd]

fact is that the pharisees were evil and there teachings poisonous venom, but all ops are not pharisees, i be one and i am not, neither is my church and it is upc, our pastor is a moderate and reasonable fellow, i realize that is rare, dt:kickcan

if it is rare, than I must be the luckiest guy around, cuz that is all I have ever been associated with.

I know some unreasonable fellers. some UPCI some independant. but fortunatly I have never been connected to their little kingdoms.

[DividedThigh]

if it is rare, than I must be the luckiest guy around, cuz that is all I have ever been associated with.

I know some unreasonable fellers. some UPCI some independant. but fortunatly I have never been connected to their little kingdoms.

thank god for that favor that you have missed the little kingdom builders, cause that is what it is pure and simple control, compliance and conformity nothing else is tolerated, what a sad commentary, god is a god of grace and freedom, freedom to do what is right, not what i want, but what is right, and jesus has no need for me to be his police, lol,dt

[Nahum]

PP, there is not question that hte Pharisees were evil. but this bait and switch that is being used here is wrong too.

the Pharisees were evil because
1. they didnt live what they preached
2. they preached doctrines of men not of God
3. they sought high offices and used scripture to achieve it at the expence of others;
4. they made a pretense of their holiness by dressing gaudly.


pretty tombs full of rotting flesh is what they were. Anyone with that attitude today is equally evil and disgusting.


but that doesnt mean mainstream Oneness Pentecostals are Pharisees as DanA leader of the Danites suggests.

Times are changing.

But that spirit is pretty much all I have ever known.

I am not saying OP's are evil. Far from it.

I'm just saying that we have spent the last four decades building a huge wall between us and the world.

That endeavor has worked quite well, cause no one acts like they even see us any longer. We are not growing, as a movement. We are stagnant. Very few young ministers. Fragmented fellowship.

I was at a very traditional Pentecostal church last night. The preaching was unbelievably anointed. The speaker made this statement. He said "Pentecost is in danger of becoming just another religious relic."

Now look, this guy wasn't/isn't liberal. He's mainstream right. But he, apparently, is nobody's fool.

I think what he said is true.

The fence-builders of the last half-century can be thanked for that. So busy trying to keep everyone out. Very little effort getting anybody in.

That's a recipe for disaster.

[SDG]

PP,

This wall is not Christ-like.

[DividedThigh]

i think we all agree with that dan, really, dt:kickcan

[Nahum]

PP,

This wall is not Christ-like.

Agreed.

I just find it hard to believe that folks can't see similarities between us and the Pharisees.

We use the same lingo as them.

We love words like "fences, walls, lines and separate."

We wrestle with the same spiritual elitism. Haughtiness. Self-righteousness.

I say "we" because I will admit that I wrestle with that spirit often. I am trying to break free of it, but it's hard to do. It's a part of my whole thought process.

[Michael Phelps]

Times are changing.

But that spirit is pretty much all I have ever known.

I am not saying OP's are evil. Far from it.

I'm just saying that we have spent the last four decades building a huge wall between us and the world.

That endeavor has worked quite well, cause no one acts like they even see us any longer. We are not growing, as a movement. We are stagnant. Very few young ministers. Fragmented fellowship.

I was at a very traditional Pentecostal church last night. The preaching was unbelievably anointed. The speaker made this statement. He said "Pentecost is in danger of becoming just another religious relic."

Now look, this guy wasn't/isn't liberal. He's mainstream right. But he, apparently, is nobody's fool.

I think what he said is true.

The fence-builders of the last half-century can be thanked for that. So busy trying to keep everyone out. Very little effort getting anybody in.

That's a recipe for disaster.

My friend, I have never agreed with you more than I do right now. Well said, and thanks for baring your soul and sharing things that many others would be afraid to share.

You rock!:bliss

[Nahum]

My friend, I have never agreed with you more than I do right now. Well said, and thanks for baring your soul and sharing things that many others would be afraid to share.

You rock!:bliss

There is a danger in doing so.

Immediately, there will be some who assume my words intend an abandonment of tradition and modesty. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I simply wish to see our movement get past the notion that we are exclusively special, patently peculiar and predictably old-fashioned.

I am not after relevance, I am after proximity.

I want to be close to Jesus. I want to drag the world closer to Him.

That will not happen if a wall is the most important thing to us.

[Ferd]

Times are changing.

But that spirit is pretty much all I have ever known.

I am not saying OP's are evil. Far from it.

I'm just saying that we have spent the last four decades building a huge wall between us and the world.

That endeavor has worked quite well, cause no one acts like they even see us any longer. We are not growing, as a movement. We are stagnant. Very few young ministers. Fragmented fellowship.

I was at a very traditional Pentecostal church last night. The preaching was unbelievably anointed. The speaker made this statement. He said "Pentecost is in danger of becoming just another religious relic."

Now look, this guy wasn't/isn't liberal. He's mainstream right. But he, apparently, is nobody's fool.

I think what he said is true.

The fence-builders of the last half-century can be thanked for that. So busy trying to keep everyone out. Very little effort getting anybody in.

That's a recipe for disaster.

PP a lot of what you are saying here, I agree with. I see it from a slightly different perspective but none the less, there is certainly things we need to adjust.

What I will not give a blind eye to is the constant drum beat of herasy that our good friend likes to pound out for the mind numbed masses.

Where you and I disagree is on the motives behind what has happened, not so much the fact that it has happened.
You see it as a wall being built. no doubt in some instances that is true, but my perspective is one from a moderate church where I never suffered under a heavy hand.

I see it as a world that has moved while we have not changed at all. the end result is the same. root cause is vastly different.

to me some of the things that Conservitives are fighting over, simply have left them. Its like an old soldier standing on an empty battlefield while the war rages some place else. He wants to re-fight a battle that ended long ago, but doesnt recognize the battle rages elsewhere.

[Nahum]

To me some of the things that Conservatives are fighting over, simply have left them. It's like an old soldier standing on an empty battlefield while the war rages some place else. He wants to re-fight a battle that ended long ago, but doesnt recognize the battle rages elsewhere.

Great analogy.:friend

[Michael Phelps]

There is a danger in doing so.

Immediately, there will be some who assume my words intend an abandonment of tradition and modesty. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I simply wish to see our movement get past the notion that we are exclusively special, patently peculiar and predictably old-fashioned.

I am not after relevance, I am after proximity.

I want to be close to Jesus. I want to drag the world closer to Him.

That will not happen if a wall is the most important thing to us.

You are correct, there is a danger. And, unfortunately, the danger comes from "Friendly fire".

I appreciate your spirit, and your honesty, and if the movement ever reaches the point you speak of, there will be unprecedented growth and unity that will transform the world.

But, it has to start with honest people ..........

[Nahum]

You are correct, there is a danger. And, unfortunately, the danger comes from "Friendly fire".

I appreciate your spirit, and your honesty, and if the movement ever reaches the point you speak of, there will be unprecedented growth and unity that will transform the world.

But, it has to start with honest people ..........

Yeppers.

It's not like my feelings are any great secret.:friend

My leadership knows my feelings.

They know I am not on some unholy mission to erase our traditions.

However, I would like us to view them as just that - traditions.

Not holy writ.

[Ferd]

You are correct, there is a danger. And, unfortunately, the danger comes from "Friendly fire".

I appreciate your spirit, and your honesty, and if the movement ever reaches the point you speak of, there will be unprecedented growth and unity that will transform the world.

But, it has to start with honest people ..........

Yeppers.

It's not like my feelings are any great secret.:friend

My leadership knows my feelings.

They know I am not on some unholy mission to erase our traditions.

However, I would like us to view them as just that - traditions.

Not holy writ.


I cannot forgive you two. you have taken a perfectly obnoxious thread and turned it into a reasonable one.

[RandyWayne]

To me some of the things that Conservitives are fighting over, simply have left them. Its like an old soldier standing on an empty battlefield while the war rages some place else. He wants to re-fight a battle that ended long ago, but doesn't recognize the battle rages elsewhere.

Resolution 4 anyone?

Stuff like this makes any group completely irrelevant to nearly everyone.

[Michael Phelps]

I cannot forgive you two. you have taken a perfectly obnoxious thread and turned it into a reasonable one.

Don't worry, it will change!:ursofunny

[HeavenlyOne]

Ah yes those evil Pharisees. Preaching standards and all that. being mean to people. just making everyone be more holy than Jesus.

well, lets see what Jesus ACTUALLY said about them.

Matthew 23
1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

It wasnt the message that Jesus objected to, it was their hypocracy! they didnt live what they preached. And what they did do, they did for the approal of man (which is in direct opposition to what Seperation is all about.)

Once again, DanA steps up and cracks a foul ball while the crowd cheers his prowess at the plate!

DanA you have done a fantastic job of creating a strawman and burnining conservitives in effigy. you are to be congratulated.

Ferd, my friend, I don't see anything wrong with someone wanting to look separate if they feel they must, but the problem comes when those people believe they are saved by doing so, and those who don't are lost.

I don't see Jesus living separate as the Pharisees did. If that kind of separation was necessary, I wonder why Jesus didn't follow it and admonish His disciples to do the same.

But you are right in that Jesus didn't rebuke them for being separate, but their attitude at living that way.

[Jekyll]

DanA has almost 14000 posts tearing down the Apostolic church, yet, by his own estimation, only 0.03% of the world has been reached with the Gospel of Christ. I'm sure this number is suspect to DanA as the figures he quoted has nothing to do with his version of christianity.

Now, how many of these 14,000 posts has won the 99.07% of the world to the gospel? Even his version of the gospel?

[HeavenlyOne]

DanA has almost 14000 posts tearing down the Apostolic church, yet, by his own estimation, only 0.03% of the world has been reached with the Gospel of Christ. I'm sure this number is suspect to DanA as the figures he quoted has nothing to do with his version of christianity.

Now, how many of these 14,000 posts has won the 99.07% of the world to the gospel? Even his version of the gospel?

Jek, this forum isn't one of witnessing. I don't think it's fair to judge his witness on his posts here. In fact, I don't know of anyone here who can prove their effectiveness at winning the world according to their posts here.

[SDG]

DanA has almost 14000 posts tearing down the Apostolic church, yet, by his own estimation, only 0.03% of the world has been reached with the Gospel of Christ. I'm sure this number is suspect to DanA as the figures he quoted has nothing to do with his version of christianity.

Now, how many of these 14,000 posts has won the 99.07% of the world to the gospel? Even his version of the gospel?

My estimation Jekyll, in case you have problems decoding and interpreting data, .... is disbelief with the amount of saved folks that exist under your definition of saved ... and I gave you the benefit of the doubt of 20 million.

This percentage of course would include those who fall under your salvation model and salvific dress code ...

Me personally? I honestly believe as John did that the number is millions upon millions.

The question still begs to be asked if the WHOLE GOSPEL TO THE WHOLE WORLD is even making a dent ....

and if it isn't .... then is the paradigm faulty? ... especially since I don't think the Gospel and Spirit of God is being rejected at such a rate.

The problem here in my opinion, my tradition-bound friend, is spiritual and reality myopia that is caused by your insistence on extra-biblical separation and actively pursuing disfellowship.

[SDG]

Jek, this forum isn't one of witnessing. I don't think it's fair to judge his witness on his posts here. In fact, I don't know of anyone here who can prove their effectiveness at winning the world according to their posts here.

HO,

Fear of me influencing the readership here ... or as Ferd described as the MIND NUMBED MASSES ... is what motivates the postings of Ferd and Jekyll in this thread ...

Yet, IRONICALLY, this obnoxious thread seems to have their attention .... however.



What I will not give a blind eye to is the constant drum beat of herasy that our good friend likes to pound out for the mind numbed masses.

[SDG]

Maybe when Jek and Ferd get off euphoric jihad attack mode ... they'll answer the questions in the original thread post.

Unless they want to continue to lose more credibility by not discussing the nature of Christ's separation.

[Jekyll]

Jek, this forum isn't one of witnessing. I don't think it's fair to judge his witness on his posts here. In fact, I don't know of anyone here who can prove their effectiveness at winning the world according to their posts here.
When an individual spends a year and a half discrediting Apostolic beliefs then uses numbers to "back" up his beliefs and basically blames a fundamental belief of Apostolics for a lack of greater success, I question the number of his posts (= amount of time spent) here and the effectiveness of his non-Apostolic garbage. Quite fair. Especially by da's twisted standard.

[SDG]

When an individual spends a year and a half discrediting Apostolic beliefs then uses numbers to "back" up his beliefs and basically blames a fundamental belief of Apostolics for a lack of greater success, I question the number of his posts (= amount of time spent) here and the effectiveness of his non-Apostolic garbage. Quite fair. Especially by da's twisted standard.

What would you attribute this low number of those w/ full salvation to, Jek?

Perhaps Satan and his legion are succeeding more than the Church?

I don't think so.

[Jekyll]

Maybe when Jek and Ferd get off euphoric jihad attack mode ... they'll answer the questions in the original thread post.

Unless they want to continue to lose more credibility by not discussing the nature of Christ's separation.
OH NOOOOOO.... I am losing credibility by not addressing da's circular rabbit trails!!!

[SDG]

The religious elite of Jesus' day believed that their degree of separatism was the clearest demarcation of their holiness. They are described as follows by one writer:



Compare this to their criticisms of Jesus -

Matthew:
See also Luke 7:33-34.

Note that the accusation was so rampant that two Gospel writers, Matthew and Luke find it necessary to address it.

For the Pharisees to call him a drunkard ... is it a stretch to infer that he was often seen sitting w/ others who were drinking alcoholic beverages ?

Also:
Now the Pharisees, of course, in one sense were right. According to the Law, an Israelite who placed himself in contact with ritually unclean people became unclean as well (Leviticus 15:7; Numbers 19:22).

Even Jesus disciples marveled and questioned why he would seemingly break rabbinic tradition and law and would sit and chat w/ the unclean ... especially females.

After they saw him speaking to the Samaritan woman at the well ... they marveled.



One writer relates, "They knew Jesus had clearly violated the rabbinic oral law, which said, “Let the words of the Law be burned rather than committed to a woman . . .” (Sotah), and Hebrew men in Jesus’ day were also taught, “One is not as much as to greet a woman” (Berakhoth)."

He even allowed a woman of ill-repute, to wash his feet with her tears, kiss his feet, dry them w/ her hair and anoint them w/ oil .

There is no doubt that this was scandalous to many.

Here are my questions ....

Why did Jesus spend so much time with some of the most vile sinners of His day?

Was Jesus' Holiness contagious? ... Why is it he was able to seemingly "fellowship" w/ darkness being the Light of the World?

Would Jesus' method of evangelism and Holiness living be accepted among modern day Apostolicdom?

How separate was Jesus?

What does it mean when the Word says ... "Be ye separate"?


BUMP.

[Jekyll]

PUMP

[Jekyll]

SUMP

[Jekyll]

Stump

[Jekyll]

Stamp

[Jekyll]

TAMP

[Jekyll]

TAME

[Jekyll]

LAME

[Jekyll]

Blame

[HeavenlyOne]

When an individual spends a year and a half discrediting Apostolic beliefs then uses numbers to "back" up his beliefs and basically blames a fundamental belief of Apostolics for a lack of greater success, I question the number of his posts (= amount of time spent) here and the effectiveness of his non-Apostolic garbage. Quite fair. Especially by da's twisted standard.

One can say the same about anyone here. Many of us have been here (meaning since the days of FCF and NFCF) a lot longer than DA. I can't bring to mind anyone that can claim they post in a manner that would win souls to Christ. That's not what these forums are about.

There's nothing wrong with discrediting Apostolic beliefs. Some of them need discrediting. I'd rather discredit them to bring about positive change so we can get back to the Biblical beliefs that are so very important to our salvation.

[Jekyll]

One can say the same about anyone here. Many of us have been here (meaning since the days of FCF and NFCF) a lot longer than DA. I can't bring to mind anyone that can claim they post in a manner that would win souls to Christ. That's not what these forums are about.

There's nothing wrong with discrediting Apostolic beliefs. Some of them need discrediting. I'd rather discredit them to bring about positive change so we can get back to the Biblical beliefs that are so very important to our salvation.
HO, I am absolutely grateful for some meaningful dialogue. Thank you for this reprive.

Apostolic beliefs are vital to salvation. I wouldn't be an Apostolic if I were trying to tear down or discredit my own beliefs. I don't believe that Apostolics have to get back to Biblical beliefs. If some think so, they are welcome to their own opinions. I welcome wayward Apostolics to return to the Bible and advance the Gospel.

While I agree with you that the purpose of these forums is not outreach, I don't see how someone has any credibility wasting the time on here that da has attacking the Church THEN turn around and chastise that Church for not being effective enough (in his condescending opinion) in bringing the Gospel to the world.

BTW I think ALL of us waste our time on here. Especially me.

[Praxeas]

DanA has almost 14000 posts tearing down the Apostolic church, yet, by his own estimation, only 0.03% of the world has been reached with the Gospel of Christ. I'm sure this number is suspect to DanA as the figures he quoted has nothing to do with his version of christianity.

Now, how many of these 14,000 posts has won the 99.07% of the world to the gospel? Even his version of the gospel?
Wow...you went back and read all 14,000 posts and determined every one of them were tearing down the Apostolic church? :crazy

How many of your posts has one a single soul here on this forum? :tissue

[rgcraig]

PUMP

SUMP

Stump

Stamp

TAMP

TAME

Blame

Trying to get your post count up or searching for the right word?

[Praxeas]

When an individual spends a year and a half discrediting Apostolic beliefs then uses numbers to "back" up his beliefs and basically blames a fundamental belief of Apostolics for a lack of greater success, I question the number of his posts (= amount of time spent) here and the effectiveness of his non-Apostolic garbage. Quite fair. Especially by da's twisted standard.
Why not just refute his assertions? Focus on refuting his assertions than on the man himself. IF you do that your arguments will look and sound more valid

[Praxeas]

What would you attribute this low number of those w/ full salvation to, Jek?

Perhaps Satan and his legion are succeeding more than the Church?

I don't think so.
There are still billions that never accepted ANY gospel, even the ones that heard it, that are unsaved. Does that mean Christ failed? Does that mean even the evangelicals failed? Of course not.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Rom 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down)
Rom 10:7 or "'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14 But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?"
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Rom 10:18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."

[Brother Price]

Christ did what we don't, and cared like we will not. Lord, make me more likened to You daily.

[Praxeas]

PUMP

SUMP

Stamp

TAMP

LAME

Blame
sophomoric

What this does is make it seem like you just can't refute what DA says. It really looks sad when people do this.

[Jekyll]

sophomoric

What this does is make it seem like you just can't refute what DA says. It really looks sad when people do this.
Prax, don't insult your own intelligence. This is what da does to any valid argument to his tripe. Just look over the past year. Now look at me. I have finally stooped to his level.

[Nahum]

I think the original question is a good one.

There are several examples of Jesus separating Himself from others.


From his parents when he stayed behind in the Temple.

Remember Luke 2:49?

"And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?"

This shows a separation unto a mission.

From the familiar and comfortable during His temptation in the wilderness.

(Mark 1:12; Matthew 4:1-8; Luke 4:1-13)

This shows a separation unto prayer and fasting.


Retreat to the boat after the busy day.

Matthew 14:13-14

He did this so that His physical body could rest.



Awaiting trial in the High Priest's house.

Luke 22:54

He was separate in affliction.



These are just a few examples of Jesus separating Himself from others. Oddly enough, we have no example of Jesus negatively separating Himself from any place other than Nazareth - and that because of unbelief.

We should note he never separated because the situation was too wicked, the sin was too great, or because His reputation was at risk.

Jesus allowed the needs of others to shape His personal ministry. Those needs dictated His geographical direction. Those needs shaped His personal speech, for he was always speaking parables in order to bring His message close to their hearts and minds. While he respected the law and the prophets, he did not feel bound by them. He simply renewed their message through His person and ministry.

His mission statement is found in Luke 4:18-19;

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

[Brother Price]

Prax, don't insult your own intelligence. This is what da does to any valid argument to his tripe. Just look over the past year. Now look at me. I have finally stooped to his level.
Jekyll, why in the world do you have to bring in DA in order to justify your actions? That ain't right, on any level.

[Nahum]

Okay, should I just step aside so you little schoolboys can fight?

I thought this was a pretty cool topic.

Oh well.

[rgcraig]

I think the original question is a good one.

There are several examples of Jesus separating Himself from others.















These are just a few examples of Jesus separating Himself from others. Oddly enough, we have no example of Jesus negatively separating Himself from any place other than Nazareth - and that because of unbelief.

We should note he never separated because the situation was too wicked, the sin was too great, or because His reputation was at risk.

Jesus allowed the needs of others to shape His personal ministry. Those needs dictated His geographical direction. Those needs shaped His personal speech, for he was always speaking parables in order to bring His message close to their hearts and minds. While he respected the law and the prophets, he did not feel bound by them. He simply renewed their message through His person and ministry.

His mission statement is found in Luke 4:18-19;

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

No, do not step aside.

Great post!

[Brother Price]

Okay, should I just step aside so you little schoolboys can fight?

I thought this was a pretty cool topic.

Oh well.
Please don't PP. I just called him out for the drawing in of my friend. That's all. Nothing more.

[Jekyll]

Okay, should I just step aside so you little schoolboys can fight?

I thought this was a pretty cool topic.

Oh well.
I'm done here.

[Jekyll]

Please don't PP. I just called him out for the drawing in of my friend. That's all. Nothing more.
Drawing of your friend?

OMG

Drawing in?

I'm speechless.


Wow, now I really am done here.

[Nahum]

Drawing of your friend?

OMG

Drawing in?

I'm speechless.


Wow, now I really am done here.

That was kind of funny, you have to admit.:ursofunny

[SDG]

I think the original question is a good one.

There are several examples of Jesus separating Himself from others.















These are just a few examples of Jesus separating Himself from others. Oddly enough, we have no example of Jesus negatively separating Himself from any place other than Nazareth - and that because of unbelief.

We should note he never separated because the situation was too wicked, the sin was too great, or because His reputation was at risk.

Jesus allowed the needs of others to shape His personal ministry. Those needs dictated His geographical direction. Those needs shaped His personal speech, for he was always speaking parables in order to bring His message close to their hearts and minds. While he respected the law and the prophets, he did not feel bound by them. He simply renewed their message through His person and ministry.

His mission statement is found in Luke 4:18-19;

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Now that sir will preach!!!

[Cindy]

No, do not step aside.

Great post!

AMEN!

[theoldpaths]

I haven't read all 10 pages worth of replies, but I thought that I would add my 2 cents worth and I apologize if some of my comments have already been pointed out.

Why did Jesus spend so much time with some of the most vile sinners of His day?

He came to seek and to save that which was lost
The well need not a physician but the sick.

Was Jesus' Holiness contagious? ... Why is it he was able to seemingly "fellowship" w/ darkness being the Light of the World?

True holiness starts on the inside and requires being born again of the water and Spirit which didn't happen until after Jesus died in Acts 2.

He didn't fellowship with darkness in the sense of being partakers of those things that would put someone in darkness; he reached out to those in darkness and his motive was to try and win them and not be partakers of their evil deeds.

Would Jesus' method of evangelism and Holiness living be accepted among modern day Apostolicdom?

Jesus method of evangelism is being done today - born again apostolics are eating with sinners in hopes of trying to win them.

In terms of holy living, born again apostolics are endeavering to live holy lives as instructed in the word of God and/or using principles taught in the word of God. As stated before, Jesus reached out to sinners to try and win them, but he did not partake of their evil deeds or those things that caused them to be in darkness in the first place.

Another thing to remember is that Jesus had the Spirit without measure and was God manifest in the flesh - those who are born again are not God manifest in flesh. If you want proof of that, Jesus was tempted in all points like as we are, and yet he was without sin; I don't know any born again apostolic that has not sinned once and needed to repent since they got saved.

How separate was Jesus?

See the answer to the next question for the answer to this question.

What does it mean when the Word says ... "Be ye separate"?

Consider the context of the above:

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

This deals with idolarty and reminds me of the following scriptures concerning this:

1Co 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
1Co 10:19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
1Co 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
1Co 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Now back then, they worshipped idols and sacrificed unto them, which begs the question - what are some modern day idols? I can think of some, but I'll leave it up to your imagination.

Christians today are not to have any idols - they are not to share in the idols that the world has and be partakers with them in their idolatry.

Some final scriptures...

Romans 12:1 - I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
1 John 2:15 - Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Romans 6:19 - I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
2 Corinthians 7:1 - Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 - To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Hebrews 12:14 - Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Ephesians 5:27 - That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

[SDG]

Thank you TOP for your perspective .... Now Jek and Ferd was that so difficult?

[Rico]

One can say the same about anyone here. Many of us have been here (meaning since the days of FCF and NFCF) a lot longer than DA. I can't bring to mind anyone that can claim they post in a manner that would win souls to Christ. That's not what these forums are about.

There's nothing wrong with discrediting Apostolic beliefs. Some of them need discrediting. I'd rather discredit them to bring about positive change so we can get back to the Biblical beliefs that are so very important to our salvation.

Actually, I can think of at least one person; Sister Alvear. She makes me wanna get saved all the time.

[HeavenlyOne]

Okay, should I just step aside so you little schoolboys can fight?

I thought this was a pretty cool topic.

Oh well.

PP, that avatar, is that you with hair?


:D

[HeavenlyOne]

Actually, I can think of at least one person; Sister Alvear. She makes me wanna get saved all the time.

LOL!

We can't count her. She doesn't argu......er.....discuss these kinds of issues...

:D

[Nahum]

PP, that avatar, is that you with hair?


:D


Yes ma'am.

Can you believe it?!:bliss

It's a miracle!

[HeavenlyOne]

Yes ma'am.

Can you believe it?!:bliss

It's a miracle!

No, the miracle is your new baby! What do the other kids think of that one?

LOL!

Oh, and you both look so young!

[Rico]

The problem with these types of threads, in my opinion, is that a lot depends on who it is that is starting the thread. We have read so many of each other's posts and know each other well enough that, as soon as we see poster A or poster B start up a thread on this subject or that subject, the first thought that comes to our mind is, "Here's so and so starting this up again."

[Nahum]

No, the miracle is your new baby! What do the other kids think of that one?

LOL!

Oh, and you both look so young!

That picture is from 1990.

That baby is my eighteen year old daughter.

I'm getting old.:tissue

[Rico]

That picture is from 1990.

That baby is my eighteen year old daughter.

I'm getting old.:tissue

Oooooo shut up! My son is only two years behind her! lol!

[HeavenlyOne]

That picture is from 1990.

That baby is my eighteen year old daughter.

I'm getting old.:tissue

So your hair was gone that fast when I saw you in 1992?

Ok, just kidding! LOL!

I don't think I met you until 2000, actually. :D

[HeavenlyOne]

Oooooo shut up! My son is only two years behind her! lol!

Yeah, but you still have hair!

[SDG]

The problem with these types of threads, in my opinion, is that a lot depends on who it is that is starting the thread. We have read so many of each other's posts and know each other well enough that, as soon as we see poster A or poster B start up a thread on this subject or that subject, the first thought that comes to our mind is, "Here's so and so starting this up again."

What do you think about the nature of Christ's separation, Rico?

[Ferd]

Ferd, my friend, I don't see anything wrong with someone wanting to look separate if they feel they must, but the problem comes when those people believe they are saved by doing so, and those who don't are lost.

I don't see Jesus living separate as the Pharisees did. If that kind of separation was necessary, I wonder why Jesus didn't follow it and admonish His disciples to do the same.

But you are right in that Jesus didn't rebuke them for being separate, but their attitude at living that way.

H1, we agree. seperation doesnt save. being seperated from the world is no "sacrement"

that doesnt mean that saved people are free to live and act as the rest of the world do. there are places saved people dont go. There are things saved people dont do.

What seems to be in voge these days is, us saved people should have no restraint. That our lives ought to look like everyone else. I reject that entirely.

[Ferd]

HO,

Fear of me influencing the readership here ... or as Ferd described as the MIND NUMBED MASSES ... is what motivates the postings of Ferd and Jekyll in this thread ...

Yet, IRONICALLY, this obnoxious thread seems to have their attention .... however.

well, this is something I do agree with.

fear? that might be a bit strong. but clearly DanA has something in mind. and I dont mind engaging. someone has to tell him how wrong he is.

Far too many people seem to think a high post count equals content.

[Ferd]

Evidently Paul was less concerned with Christ's seperation than he was with ours.

2 Cor 6

13Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.
14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

[Timmy]

With some religions, the more separate they are from me, the better!

(Hey, I'm not saying which religions! :woot)

[Ferd]

Thank you TOP for your perspective .... Now Jek and Ferd was that so difficult?

The difference between TOP and I is, he is brilliant and I am a street brawler.

theOldPaths, that was fantastic.

[HeavenlyOne]

H1, we agree. seperation doesnt save. being seperated from the world is no "sacrement"

that doesnt mean that saved people are free to live and act as the rest of the world do. there are places saved people dont go. There are things saved people dont do.

What seems to be in voge these days is, us saved people should have no restraint. That our lives ought to look like everyone else. I reject that entirely.

Ferd, we agree in this. I believe that separation refers to not partaking of what the world does that makes them 'worldly'.

[theoldpaths]

The difference between TOP and I is, he is brilliant and I am a street brawler.

theOldPaths, that was fantastic.

Thank you. To God be all of the glory and praise! Without him, I can do nothing and I am just a wretched sinner saved by his unmerited, unearned, unwarranted love and goodness.

[J-Roc]

There's nothing wrong with discrediting Apostolic beliefs. Some of them need discrediting. I'd rather discredit them to bring about positive change so we can get back to the Biblical beliefs that are so very important to our salvation.


Good stuff here, HO!

[Godsdrummer]

Ah round and round the issue we go, Study study study, Jesus told them of his day that they study the scriptures to find eternal life but they the scriptures only spoke of him. We can't do any thing to be saved but have faith. All the things we call sin is a list made up by men just as the pharisee did. They started out with the right idea but became legalistic. Jesus should be our example not the by laws of church organizations.

[Godsdrummer]

Re: How SEPARATE was JESUS?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd
H1, we agree. seperation doesnt save. being seperated from the world is no "sacrement"

that doesnt mean that saved people are free to live and act as the rest of the world do. there are places saved people dont go. There are things saved people dont do.

What seems to be in voge these days is, us saved people should have no restraint. That our lives ought to look like everyone else. I reject that entirely.

Ferd, we agree in this. I believe that separation refers to not partaking of what the world does that makes them 'worldly'.

So who defines what is worldly and what is not? Most every one takes scriptures out of context does, not know the customs of the day in which the word was written, yet preach things are sin in our day based on the way they see a verse that is pulled out of context. I know I did just that for over 25-30 years of my life.

[michael4473]

in response YES JESUS did go to where the sinner was to preach the gospel and love but he didn;t practice what they did---big difference---

[Withdrawn]

in response YES JESUS did go to where the sinner was to preach the gospel and love but he didn;t practice what they did---big difference---

:blah:blah:blah

Why is it that the conservative response always has to have that qualifier/disclaimer attached to it (bolded above)? Has ANYONE EVER even suggested that He did or that we should? Being where sinners are (streets, bars, dance clubs, jails, etc.) is where He was and would be today, and is where we should be. I don't think even the most liberal among us would advocate that we should "join in on the fun" or partake of their sinful indulgences. Gimme a break! I just don't understand why we're so fearful that someone would take this the wrong way. Don't we have the Spirit to lead us and speak to us? Do we really think that everyone is so spiritually immature and weak that they can't possibly be wise and discerning enough to know that sin is wrong - whatever the form? Someone help me here, please!

In this thread, the responses from the conservative position have mainly been either personal (ad hominem) attacks on the character and agenda of the man who started this thread, or statements like the one above. Let's move away from milk and childishness, and let's have a real feast on the Word and the Bread of Life!!!

1 Corinthians 13.11 - When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

[Aquila]

I wouldn't participate in illegal activity or lewed activity such as prostitution or what have you. But I would sit and have a drink with someone and shoot the breeze if they where willing. No biggie in my opinion, but that's just me. It builds relationship and for some that's what's needed to share Christ. Of course... I wouldn't get totally smashed. That'd be REAL stupid... and it IS a SIN.

[Godsdrummer]

in response YES JESUS did go to where the sinner was to preach the gospel and love but he didn;t practice what they did---big difference---

There must have been something to what Jesus did, for people did not call him a wine biber without cause. That does not come from just being around the wrong crowd (speaking from experiance)

[Godsdrummer]

I wouldn't participate in illegal activity or lewed activity such as prostitution or what have you. But I would sit and have a drink with someone and shoot the breeze if they where willing. No biggie in my opinion, but that's just me. It builds relationship and for some that's what's needed to share Christ. Of course... I wouldn't get totally smashed. That'd be REAL stupid... and it IS a SIN.

Again Aquila I like your response a man that thinks like I have come to think. Although I don't try to push my ideas on others unless they are receptive. We don't know when some one may have had problems with something we accept as ok. Romans chapter 14 gives great teaching on this. :thumbsup