Should U.S. Share Guilt For China Abortions?

[ChristopherHall]

I had mentioned this some time back and was denounced. Here's an interesting article:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=62656

Are we feeding a beast that forces abortion (61 babies per hour) with our free trade policies?

[Hoovie]

I am interested in MOW's comments concerning the info in the link.

It is terrible what happens there - but i don't doubt it.

[Newman]

But how are U.S. residents a part? Because, she told WND, the exploding consumer goods market for Chinese-made products puts pressure on Chinese manufacturers to increase production; they put pressure on workers to put in long hours at the plants, and there's no room in the equation for child-bearing. The result? Forced abortions.

This premise is ridiculous! When I was in China 21 years ago; BEFORE the EXPLODING CONSUMER GOODS MARKET China had a limit of one child per family except for farm families who could have two.

Before this policy was in place millions of Chinese people starved to death. I visited Shanghi when it was more of a rural village than the city of New York that it is more akin to now.

There were very few cars and thousand upon thousands of bicycles. It was so cool to watch the couples with their one child because you could see so much love and hope in that child riding on the back of their bikes.

No, I am not saying abortion is right. But I am saying that China's one child policy was in place before China could feed her own people and the subsequent rising prosperity followed. Can't put the blame on the United States. Sorry. Not buying. :cool:

[ChristopherHall]

This premise is ridiculous! When I was in China 21 years ago; BEFORE the EXPLODING CONSUMER GOODS MARKET China had a limit of one child per family except for farm families who could have two.

Before this policy was in place millions of Chinese people starved to death. I visited Shanghi when it was more of a rural village than the city of New York that it is more akin to now.

There were very few cars and thousand upon thousands of bicycles. It was so cool to watch the couples with their one child because you could see so much love and hope in that child riding on the back of their bikes.

No, I am not saying abortion is right. But I am saying that China's one child policy was in place before China could feed her own people and the subsequent rising prosperity followed. Can't put the blame on the United States. Sorry. Not buying. :cool:

China is presently a country that forces women to abort as national policy. It could be argued that if one were to support their economy with their dollar...we're funding their system and their policies.

I think the question is...how pro-life are we? Is our pro-life ethic limited to politically addressing voluntary abortion in our own country...but we're perfectly willing to support the economy of China, a nation that forces women to abort, to save $2.99 at Wal-Mart?

[Rhoni]

I had mentioned this some time back and was denounced. Here's an interesting article:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=62656

Are we feeding a beast that forces abortion (61 babies per hour) with our free trade policies?


The yuppies in America adopt Chinese children , raise them, give them education, and save them from being aborted. We increase the net worth of the Chinese government to the tune of $50,000.00+ per child - so do we cause aboritons, or are we responsible for them? Absolutely not. They only want boy babies to serve in their armed forces and kill the girl babies or adopt them out. The abortion issue is their responsibility alone.

America has it's own 'issues' with abortion.:reaction

[James Griffin]

This premise is ridiculous! When I was in China 21 years ago; BEFORE the EXPLODING CONSUMER GOODS MARKET China had a limit of one child per family except for farm families who could have two.

Before this policy was in place millions of Chinese people starved to death. I visited Shanghi when it was more of a rural village than the city of New York that it is more akin to now.

There were very few cars and thousand upon thousands of bicycles. It was so cool to watch the couples with their one child because you could see so much love and hope in that child riding on the back of their bikes.

No, I am not saying abortion is right. But I am saying that China's one child policy was in place before China could feed her own people and the subsequent rising prosperity followed. Can't put the blame on the United States. Sorry. Not buying. :cool:

A HEARTY Amen to that.

We need to work on civil rights there, as well as religious persecution and trade balance inequities, but blaming the US for their abortion issues???

[James Griffin]

The yuppies in America adopt Chinese children , raise them, give them education, and save them from being aborted. We increase the net worth of the Chinese government to the tune of $50,000.00+ per child - so do we cause aboritons, or are we responsible for them? Absolutely not. They only want boy babies to serve in their armed forces and kill the girl babies or adopt them out. The abortion issue is their responsibility alone.

America has it's own 'issues' with abortion.:reaction

Another great response.

[Rhoni]

Another great response.

Thank-you!

[ChristopherHall]

Please note: In China it's a governmental policy...it's not even a voluntary act. In America it's voluntary...in China, for many women, it's not. It's a state mandated holocaust.

Imagine with me that we are living in the 40's. German concentration camps are in full swing and the ovens and gas chambers are being used. Would it be ethical to buy goods produced by Germany?

I was thinking about this today when I was at Wal-Mart. My wife handed our son (Noah, going on 2 years) lovely toy car. He giggled and said, "Ca! Ca!", his version of "Car! Car!" I couldn' help but notice the "Made in China" on the package when I was looking for the price. Suddenly the World Net Daily article came to mind. I started to wonder...how many Chinese women were forced to have an abortion in the factory where this toy was made? When I buy this...a good portion of my money will go back to the Chinese economy and a percentage no doubt will find it's way into the coffers of the Chinese government. A government that will pay officials to force a woman to abort. I surveyed the items in the cart...China...China...Taiwan...China...China. My child's fingers clenched the package of this toy car, my child will pay with this toy...how many children will never have a chance to play with a choice like this as a result of China's policy?

As consumers most wouldn't blink an eye. To save a buck. That's the mission. But as Christians...how would Jesus shop? We protest abortion clinics here where women voluntarily have abortions. Should we protest China's inhumane policies that violate human rights and murder the unborn by protesting the largest distributors of their goods? Or do we ignore it and save a dollar?

These are questions that were on my mind tonight as we drove home from Wal-Mart. I'm just as guilty.

[ChristopherHall]

Parents' losses compounded by China's one-child policy
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/05/15/china.one.child/index.html?iref=hpmostpop
http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/05/15/china.one.child/art.chinachild1.ap.jpg

From Kyung Lah
CNN

SICHUAN, China (CNN) -- Li Yunxia wipes away tears as rescue crews dig through the ruins of a kindergarten class that has buried her only child -- a 5-year-old boy.

China's one-child policy magnifies the loss parents are feeling after learning their child died in the earthquake.



I've heard it said that God uses earthquakes to speak to the spiritually deaf.

Are we listening?

Brace yourselves.

[scotty]

So your saying that the loss of my 18 yr old daughter is less of an emotional loss to me because I still have a younger daughter living? Well let me go right now to give my wife the good news.





You lose more respect with every new thread you start chris.

[Cindy]

So your saying that the loss of my 18 yr old daughter is less of an emotional loss to me because I still have a younger daughter living? Well let me go right now to give my wife the good news.





You lose more respect with every new thread you start chris.


Do you know Scotty, that after my daughter died, people actually came up to me and said, well at least you have more children. Yeah I avoided going to town a lot, I know they didn't mean it the way it sounded, but it just dumbfounded me how insensitive people could be. As if one child could replace another.

[ChristopherHall]

So your saying that the loss of my 18 yr old daughter is less of an emotional loss to me because I still have a younger daughter living? Well let me go right now to give my wife the good news.





You lose more respect with every new thread you start chris.

Scotty...where in the world did you get the idea that I said anything like that?

My point is that China has mandated abortion and has forced untold thousands of women into abortion. Now untold thousands of these families are facing additional trauma after having lost their only child.

Don't you see what's happening in China? Can't you "feel" the spiritual temperature and magnitude of what's happened there?

Brother...I started this thread on 4/26/08. This subject was causing me significant torment in my soul. I brought it up on several other threads also. I posted this in the hopes of hearing some conscience among us on this issue. It's too late for them, but not for us...I pray.

[scotty]

Do you know Scotty, that after my daughter died, people actually came up to me and said, well at least you have more children. Yeah I avoided going to town a lot, I know they didn't mean it the way it sounded, but it just dumbfounded me how insensitive people could be. As if one child could replace another.

Yes ma'am , we heard the same thing. Just makes you wonder sometimes.

[Cindy]

Scotty...where in the world did you get the idea that I said anything like that?

My point is that China has mandated abortion and forced women into abortion. Now untold thousands of these families are facing additional trauma having lost their only child.

Don't you see what's happening in China? Can't you "feel" the spiritual temperature and magnitude of what's happened there?

Brother...I started this thread on 4/26/08. This subject was causing me significant torment in my soul. I brought it up on several threads also. I posted this in the hopes of hearing some conscience among us on this issue. It's too late for them, but not for us...at least I hope so.

I do understand some of the points you are trying to make Brother Hall. And I think it is wonderful that you have a burden for the world. My question is do you think we as a people can change OUR government's trade policies with China?

[ChristopherHall]

I do understand some of the points you are trying to make Brother Hall. And I think it is wonderful that you have a burden for the world. My question is do you think we as a people can change OUR government's trade policies with China?

No. I doubt we could do much to change trade policies.

But...as we speak there is much anguish being felt and much pressure on the Chinese government over the issue. Now is the time to hit our knees and go to war, praying that China change it's policies in this area in some measure, in the hopes that God relents.

Now is also a time to consider that if we do not pray for changes in China... and we do not pray for our own nation's willingness to ignore the most blatant of human rights violations for profit... we may very well be next in line to reap the whirlwind. The stars shall fall from over America, the sun shall become black and the moon will not give her light. And the merchants who were made rich by her idolatry and materialism will hide in the dens and in the rocks. There they shall weep as their gold becomes cankered and their garments moth eaten. As the LORD smote the gods of Egypt so shall he smite the god of America, for much of her profits are drenched in the blood of children and the tears of the oppressed.

[Praxeas]

Do you know Scotty, that after my daughter died, people actually came up to me and said, well at least you have more children. Yeah I avoided going to town a lot, I know they didn't mean it the way it sounded, but it just dumbfounded me how insensitive people could be. As if one child could replace another.
People often just don't know what to say. Maybe the best thing to say is "I know there is probably nothing I can say that will make things better but I just want you to know I will be praying for you"

[Rico]

So your saying that the loss of my 18 yr old daughter is less of an emotional loss to me because I still have a younger daughter living? Well let me go right now to give my wife the good news.





You lose more respect with every new thread you start chris.

This is how you find yourself into it with people, Scotty. He said no such thing.

[Baron1710]

Chris,

You can't have it both ways. You claim abortion in America is due primarily to the fact that there are poor people who do not have enough and so they abort. Then you turn around and say that America is responsible for Chinese abortions because we have caused too much economic growth. Which is it my friend wealth or poverty? Or should we just tax everyone until we are equally poor to stop abortions. Can America do anything right?

[Rhoni]

Since Yuppie Americans adopt thousands of Chinese babies a year; I would say the abortion rate has little to nothing to do with America. A good percentage of American children have Chinese descent.

[Antipas]

I think I have to mention something here. I'm seeing a lot of people personally attacking the individual asking the question instead of answering the question asked. The original post was:

I had mentioned this some time back and was denounced. Here's an interesting article:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=62656

Are we feeding a beast that forces abortion (61 babies per hour) with our free trade policies?

After reviewing the article I think it should be discussed outside of attacking the one asking the question for merely asking the question. I wonder, is our refusal to even seriously consider the moral implications of what is presented here a validation of the point made? Are we too willing to look the other way if it saves us money?

[Antipas]

Chris,

You can't have it both ways. You claim abortion in America is due primarily to the fact that there are poor people who do not have enough and so they abort. Then you turn around and say that America is responsible for Chinese abortions because we have caused too much economic growth. Which is it my friend wealth or poverty? Or should we just tax everyone until we are equally poor to stop abortions. Can America do anything right?

I think you're misinterpreting the problem Baron. In America abortion is tragically linked to poverty. It's a proven fact that most abortions are in the lower income brackets.

China instituted a mandatory one child rule, forcing multitudes of women into having abortions, so in China the issue is mandated policies from the government not necessarily poverty. Here’s the disconnect for the ethicist; we who pride ourselves with being pro-life see no problem with open and free trade with China and buying Chinese goods if it saves us money. If one proposes trade barriers with China based on human rights violations they are decried as being protectionists, socialists, or anti-free market. Compare our position with Cuba. We will not trade with Cuba, Iran, etc. based on their violations of human rights. It seems to be hypocritical and targeted. We appear to only care about human rights if there’s no money to be made. Once we find that we can profit in business with them, we don’t care if they murder people, babies, or women. We don’t care about the sweatshops, slave labor, and lack of safety and just working conditions. We seem to only care about one thing…money.

[Antipas]

Since Yuppie Americans adopt thousands of Chinese babies a year; I would say the abortion rate has little to nothing to do with America. A good percentage of American children have Chinese descent.

That’s not the issue here Rhoni. The issue is China’s policy is “forced” abortion by mandate of law. That’s more heinous than denying people the right to vote or speak. That’s a governmental policy of genocidal proportions. Something like over 400 MILLION babies have been systematically terminated by decree of the Chinese government. Hitler killed 6 million Jews and America’s abortion policies (choice) have killed 45 million babies. China’s whole sale destruction of the unborn should make any true Christian absolutely furious with free and open trade with the nation. We criticize the Democrats for being “pro-choice”…but we sing the praises of Republicans who safeguard the policies and corporations who are profiting off of doing business with a nation that forces women to have abortion at gun point. Morally, which is worse? In America individual women can choose to have or not to have an abortion. In China they are forced to have an abortion if they already have a child.

Would we support free and open trade with Nazi Germany?
Would we support free and open trade with Cuba?

Why do we protect and defend what may be the largest human rights violator on earth?
What is the human toll of being able to save a buck at Wal-Mart?

These are very thought provoking questions and considerations I see you all ignoring.

[Baron1710]

I think you're misinterpreting the problem Baron. In America abortion is tragically linked to poverty. It's a proven fact that most abortions are in the lower income brackets.

China instituted a mandatory one child rule, forcing multitudes of women into having abortions, so in China the issue is mandated policies from the government not necessarily poverty. Here’s the disconnect for the ethicist; we who pride ourselves with being pro-life see no problem with open and free trade with China and buying Chinese goods if it saves us money. If one proposes trade barriers with China based on human rights violations they are decried as being protectionists, socialists, or anti-free market. Compare our position with Cuba. We will not trade with Cuba, Iran, etc. based on their violations of human rights. It seems to be hypocritical and targeted. We appear to only care about human rights if there’s no money to be made. Once we find that we can profit in business with them, we don’t care if they murder people, babies, or women. We don’t care about the sweatshops, slave labor, and lack of safety and just working conditions. We seem to only care about one thing…money.

Those statistics are a bit deceiving. Where do you think a 16 year old girl is classified if she has an abortion? Never mind her parents make 250,000 a year she is "poor" she has no income. As I understand it most abortions are for the purpose of birth control. North of 64% of abortions are performed on never married women, over half of abortions are performed on women with an income greater than $30,000. Remember we rely on people who make their fortunes on abortions to gather the facts and they know exactly how to spin it to keep the money coming in.

Free trade is not as arbitrary as you make it sound. The reality is trade embargos by the US alone doesn't hurt them as much as we like to think (them being any country not just China). The US policy in free trade is two-fold, to export western ideas and thought while giving us leverage to negotiate, and to bring up the economies of our neighbors, such as Mexico. Our trade policies are complex and take into account economics as well as security and other issues.

Abortions in China are a result not of evil factory owners who want to make money, but an evil communist regime that has had that policy in place for decades now. Those who always fault the US have finally come up with a “reason” to blame us, once again, for all the evils in the world.

[tbpew]

That’s not the issue here Rhoni. The issue is China’s policy is “forced” abortion by mandate of law. That’s more heinous than denying people the right to vote or speak. That’s a governmental policy of genocidal proportions. Something like over 400 MILLION babies have been systematically terminated by decree of the Chinese government. Hitler killed 6 million Jews and America’s abortion policies (choice) have killed 45 million babies. China’s whole sale destruction of the unborn should make any true Christian absolutely furious with free and open trade with the nation. We criticize the Democrats for being “pro-choice”…but we sing the praises of Republicans who safeguard the policies and corporations who are profiting off of doing business with a nation that forces women to have abortion at gun point. Morally, which is worse? In America individual women can choose to have or not to have an abortion. In China they are forced to have an abortion if they already have a child.

Would we support free and open trade with Nazi Germany?
Would we support free and open trade with Cuba?

Why do we protect and defend what may be the largest human rights violator on earth?
What is the human toll of being able to save a buck at Wal-Mart?

These are very thought provoking questions and considerations I see you all ignoring.

Antipas, I applaud your ability to sweep away the foolish rhetoric of man-v-man yak and your attempt to bring the discussion back to an important consideration (and certainly THANKS are due Chris for the challenging introspection that this thread is attempting to provoke).

It is very reasonable that we each need to consider if an informed purchaser of goods and services would transact business with a centrally controlled economy that denies its citizen's the freedom to have more than one child.

[Baron1710]

In spite of the fact that I disagree with the premise of this thread, I personally try to purchase goods produced elsewhere and preferably the US. However, I am in a position to do that at this point. Many folks are on a very tight budget, and are effectively forced to buy the cheapest items. Not everyone can buy a Stihl chainsaw (made in a variety of countries but not China...yet). I hate Chinese junk. But that doesn't mean a purchase of Chinese junk is equal to forcing abortions. This is an old policy for the Chinese and they enforce it just like they always have.

[tbpew]

IMO,
A title like "Should U.S. Share Guilt For China Abortions?" does not give the best opportunity for edification to occur.

If I seem like I am nit-picking, I apologize in advance for causing that impression.

Sharing guilt has NO productive or useful UPSIDE.

It may seem like excessive wordsmith but....
I think the thought that each of us should wrestle and resolve is..."Do my purchasing choices perpetuate (or fund) injustice?"

[Antipas]

Those statistics are a bit deceiving. Where do you think a 16 year old girl is classified if she has an abortion? Never mind her parents make 250,000 a year she is "poor" she has no income. As I understand it most abortions are for the purpose of birth control. North of 64% of abortions are performed on never married women, over half of abortions are performed on women with an income greater than $30,000. Remember we rely on people who make their fortunes on abortions to gather the facts and they know exactly how to spin it to keep the money coming in.

You make some good points; please site where you’re statistics came from.

Free trade is not as arbitrary as you make it sound. The reality is trade embargos by the US alone doesn't hurt them as much as we like to think (them being any country not just China). The US policy in free trade is two-fold, to export western ideas and thought while giving us leverage to negotiate, and to bring up the economies of our neighbors, such as Mexico. Our trade policies are complex and take into account economics as well as security and other issues.

You’re placing the benefits of economic policies above morality. Would you support free and open trade with Nazi Germany if the ovens and gas chambers were in use?

Abortions in China are a result not of evil factory owners who want to make money, but an evil communist regime that has had that policy in place for decades now. Those who always fault the US have finally come up with a “reason” to blame us, once again, for all the evils in the world.

China is a communist country. Factories etc. are chartered and essentially owned by the government and only operated by private interests. Therefore the factory is an extension of government in China. The government of China benefits from revenues generated by trade with the US through taxation and global recognition and respect.

I’d really appreciate it if you would answer this question:

Would you support free and open trade with Nazi Germany if the ovens and gas chambers were in use? Yes or No?

I fear the assumption of this thread is right. We don’t care about human life or rights if the price is right. If you buy Chinese, you're voting with your dollar. Just as if you were buying Nazi German goods during WWII. Morally, one should strive to only buy from Fair Trade networks that respect human rights.

The forced abortion rooms of China are worse than the rape rooms in Iraq.

You continue to avoid the issues presented by the WND article.

[Antipas]

Here's a statistical analysis I was able to find about abortion in America:

Part I: Who Has Abortions?
Since Roe v. Wade made abortion legal nationwide in 1973, there have been more
than 40 million abortions in America. One of every three American women will have an
abortion by the time they reach 45.i Assuming that roughly as many men were involved
as the father in these abortions, one in three adults between the ages of 45 and 70 has
been personally involved in at least one abortion.

Part I, Finding #1
More than one in five pregnancies end in abortion.
• In a typical year there are about 4.1 million live births, 1.3 million abortions, and
900,000 miscarriages. ii
• 21% of all pregnancies end in abortion, 14% in miscarriage, and 65% in birth.
• When miscarriages are factored out, one in four of the remaining pregnancies end
in abortion.

Part I, Finding #2
Abortion rates in the U.S. have been steadily declining.
• The number of abortions in America has declined from an all time high of 1.6
million in 1990 to 1.3 million in 2000 (the latest year available).iii
• The abortion rate — that is the number of abortions per woman of childbearing
age — has declined by 28% between 1980 and 2000.iv Most of the decline is due
to a reduction in teen pregnancies, which is mostly due to declining rates of teen
sexual activity and increasing use of contraception among those who engage in
sex. Between 1995 and 2002, the percentage of 15-19 year old males who had sex

Pregnancy Outcomes, Finding #3
Abortion
21%
Miscarriage
Live Birth 14%
65%
declined from 55.3% to 46.0%. Likewise, the rates for females declined from 51.7%
to 46.8%.v
• The use of the birth control pills for contraception increased from 51.6% to 61.4%
over the same period. Other forms of contraceptive use increased as well.vi
Part I, Finding #3
75% of all abortions are to women under 30.
• The median age of a woman who has an abortion is 24.
• Nearly one in five abortions are performed on teenagers. Another one-third are
performed on women between ages 20 and 24. Women over 30 constitute onequarter
of all abortions. Girls under 15 represent 0.7% of all abortions. Women
over 40 represent 3.1% of all abortions.vii

Part I, Finding #4
Most women who have abortions are unmarried.
Fewer than one in five abortions are performed on married women. viii
Marital Status of Women Who Obtain Abortions
Single, Never-
Married Women
67%
Separated,
Widowed, or
Divorced
Women
16%
Married Women
17%
Abortions by Age of Woman
Under 20
19%
20 - 29
56%
30+ Years
of Age
25%

Part I, Finding #5
When a teenager becomes pregnant, abortion is a likely outcome.
• There are 8 abortions for every 10 live births to girls under 15.
• There are 4 abortions for every 10 live births to girls between 15 and 19.ix

Part I, Finding #6
Women who have abortions tend to be low income, but that could be a
factor of their age rather than their poverty status.
57% of women who seek an abortion have incomes that are below twice the federal
poverty level. However, the portrait that it paints of them as poor could be misleading.
52% of women who have an abortion are under the age of 25. Young people simply
earn less than older people and single people earn far less than married people. For
example, a 2003 census bureau study found that those under 25 with a bachelor’s
degree earned on average $22,000 while those between 25 and 29 with the same
degree earned $39,000.x Thus, these women could have low incomes, but they could
also have wealthy or middle class parents.
• Only one in four women who sought an abortion had income levels above 300%
of poverty ($42,000).
• Only 21% of women said inadequate finances was the main reason for choosing
an abortion.xi

Part I, Finding #7
Whites account for the most abortions, but relative to their population,
Blacks and Hispanics have a disproportionate share of abortions.
• Though whites represent 69% of the population, they account for only 41% of the
nation’s abortions.
• Blacks are 12% of the nation’s population and had 32% of the nation’s abortions.
• Hispanics are 13% of the population and had 20% of the nation’s abortions.xii
Abortions by Race in a Typical Year
0%
20%
40%
60%
80%
Whites Blacks Hispanics
Percent of
Population
Percent of Abortions

Part I, Finding #8
There is a vast gap between the rhetorical positions that religious leaders
take on abortion and the actual practices of the laity in those religions.
Catholics and Protestants have abortion rates that are roughly commensurate with
their share of the population.
• Catholics represent 24% of the populationxiii and 27% of those having abortions —
roughly 350,000 per year.xiv
• Protestants represent 49% of the populationxv and 43% of those having abortions
— roughly 560,000 per year.xvi
• 13% of those having abortions are self-described Born-Again or Evangelical
Christians — roughly 170,000 per year.xvii

Part I, Finding #9
At the time most women have an abortion they already have a child. Half
have had a previous abortion.
The argument that abortion is widely used as a method of birth control is not borne
out by the data. Slightly over half of those having an abortion will have only one. Of the
remaining group that has had more than one abortion, more than half will have only
two. It is more likely that a woman who has an abortion has already had a previous birth
than a previous abortion.
• 61% of women who have an abortion have had a prior birth
• 48% of women who have an abortion have had a previous abortion.xviii xix
Multiple Abortions Are Uncommon
One Abortion
52%
Two Abortions
28%
Three Abortions
12%
Four or More
Abortions
8%

Part II: Why Do Women Have Abortions?
While there are many reasons and circumstances that may lead a woman or a couple
to choose an abortion, the overwhelming fact is that when a pregnancy is unplanned,
abortion is the likely outcome. Abortions based on rape, incest, life of the mother, or
abnormality of the fetus are uncommon. Reducing the number of unwanted
pregnancies by 10% would eliminate more abortions in three days than would banning
late term abortions over the course of a full year.

Part II, Finding #1
Half of all pregnancies are unplanned; most unplanned pregnancies lead
to abortion.
In America, nearly half of all pregnancies are accidental. When an unplanned
pregnancy occurs, the most likely outcome is abortion.
• For every 100 pregnancies in America, 52 were planned and 48 were unplanned.xx
• Among the 48% of pregnancies that were unintended, the percentage of
abortions to live births is 54% to 46%.xxi

Part II, Finding #2
Very few abortions are performed because of fetal abnormalities, health
of the mother, rape or incest.
Of the 1.3 million abortions in America each year, about 90,000 occur due to the
health of the fetus, mother, or rape or incest.
• 3% cited fetal abnormalities
• 3% cited health
• 1% cited rape or incest.xxii

Part II, Finding #3
There is no single dominant reason that women choose to have an
abortion, but there is one overwhelming factor: the pregnancy was
unplanned.

[Antipas]

Continued:

Part II, Finding #4
When a teenager has an abortion, parents are often a factor in the
decision.
Those espousing parental consent laws as a way to reduce teenage abortions may
be surprised to know that it is not uncommon for the teenager to wish to carry the
pregnancy to term and for the parents to recommend or demand an abortion.
• 30% of minors seeking abortions attributed their decision in part to the fact that
their parents wanted them to have abortions.xxiii
• Upon learning of their daughters’ pregnancies, parents favored abortion over
childbirth by a 4 to 1 ratio.xxiv
• The most common repercussion that a pregnant teen feels after disclosing the
pregnancy to her parents was not being beaten, punished, forced from the home
or even discomfort about living at home. Rather, it is that her parents are
demanding that she have an abortion.xxv
Reasons Women Give for Seeking Abortion
Inadequate finances
22%
"Not ready for the
responsibility"
22%
"Life would be
changed too much"
17%
Fetal abnormalities
3%
Too young and
immature to have a
child
11%
Relationship
problems/unmarried
13%
Health
3%
Rape or incest
1%
Already have enough
children
8%

Part III: When Do Women Have Abortions?
Abortions are typically performed at about the 8th week of gestational age (weeks
since the last menstrual period). Nearly all abortions occur in the first trimester. Thirdtrimester
abortions are exceptionally rare.

Part III, Finding #1
Roughly 9 out of 10 abortions are performed in the first trimester.
• 57.6% of abortions occur within 9 weeks.
• 77.9% occur within 10 weeks.
• 88.1% occur within 12 weeks — the end of the first trimester.
• 0.08% occur after 24 weeks — the end of the second trimester.

Part III, Finding #2
The reason most women give for having an abortion after 16 weeks was
not realizing they were pregnant.
Only 5.8% of all abortions are performed after the 16th week. Women often give
multiple reasons for relatively late abortions, but not realizing they were pregnant was
number one.
• 71% cited not realizing they were pregnant as the reason for having an abortion
after the 16th week.
• 48% cited difficulty in making the arrangements to have an abortion.
• 33% said they were afraid to tell their partner.
• 24% said they needed time to make a decision.
• 8% said they hoped their relationship with their partner would change.
• 2% cited a late diagnosis for fetal abnormality.xxvi

Part III, Finding #3
The most likely person to have a later term abortion is a girl under age 15.
• Nearly 14.7% of all abortions performed on girls under the age of 15 occur after
the 16th week of gestation.
• 8.5% of abortions for older teens occur after 16 weeks.
• Only a tiny percentage of women over 20 have an abortion after the 16th week.xxvii
• The number of later term abortions (abortions after 16 weeks) for teens may have
to do with not knowing or not believing they are pregnant. It could also have to
do with the trauma of telling their parents, deciding whether or not to have an
abortion, finding a location to have an abortion, or navigating parental
notification laws in particular states.

Part IV: Where Do Women Have Abortions?
Abortion rates vary by state, in part due to racial and ethnic backgrounds that seem
to determine abortion rates and in part due to the availability of abortion clinics or
hospitals that perform abortions. Some states have very few abortion providers. Women
in these states often have abortions performed in other states. Cultural influences likely
play a role as well in state abortion rates.

Part IV, Finding #1
Though abortion rates are generally lower in culturally conservative
states, they are still very high.
Women from places like Alabama and North Carolina have fewer abortions than the
national average, but the number and rate of abortions in many of these states is closer
to the national average than one would expect based on public opinion polling and the
behavior of voters. Thus, while some in these states may wish to believe that abortion is
really a Northeast or West Coast phenomenon, it is occurring with regularity almost
everywhere. Xxviii

Part IV, Finding #2
Most abortions occur in the state where the woman lives.
91.3% of all abortions occur in the woman’s home state. Several states stand out as
destinations for non-residents seeking abortions.* They include Kansas, Delaware,
Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Nebraska, Rhode Island, Tennessee, and the District of
Columbia.xxix
* Alaska, California, and New Hampshire do not report the residency of those having abortions.
Abortions per 1,000 Live Births
in Selected Culturally Conservative States
154
343
157 165 165
261
197
226 230
207 203
Alabama
Arkansas
Delaware
Georgia
Indiana
Kansas
Mississippi
Missouri
North Carolina
Pennsylvania
Texas
National
Average
246
• Over half of all abortions in D.C. are performed on out-of-state residents.
• Nearly half of all abortions in Kansas are performed on out-of-state residents.
• Nearly 40% of all abortions in North Dakota are performed on out-of-state
residents.
• Nearly 30% of all abortions in Delaware are performed on out-of-state residents.
• Nearly one in four abortions in Rhode Island are performed on out-of-state
residents.
• Nearly 20% of all abortions in Tennessee and Alabama are performed on out-ofstate
residents.xxx

Part IV, Finding #3
It is unclear whether strict parental consent laws have an impact on teen
abortion rates.
The data on where teens have abortions are scarce, so it is difficult to draw definitive
conclusions about the impact of parental consent/notification laws and out-of-state
teen abortion rates. However, nine of the ten states that attract the most out-of-state
abortions have moderate to strict parental consent laws.
• Of the ten states with the highest rates of out-of-state abortions, only one — D.C.
— has minimal or no parental notification/consent laws.
• Four of the ten — North Dakota, Rhode Island, Tennessee, and Alabama — have
strict parental consent laws.
• Five of the ten — Kansas, Delaware, Colorado, Arkansas, and Nebraska — have
moderate parental notification laws.xxxi

[Antipas]

Continued:

Part V: What Does It Mean To Be Pregnant and Unmarried?
Roughly 1 of every 3 births in the U.S. is out-of-wedlock. Nearly 1 of 4 white births,
nearly 7 of 10 black births, and more than 4 of 10 Hispanic births are to unwed
mothers.xxxii

Part V, Finding #1
There is no correlation between out-of-wedlock births and abortion rates.
Six Southern states are among the top 10 in out-of-wedlock births. But there is no
correlation between states that have many of out-of-wedlock births and abortion rates.
States with the highest percentage of births to unmarried women
have abortion rates near the national average (2001)xxxiii
State % Births Out of Wedlock Abortion Rank*
Louisiana 46.3% of births out-of-wedlock 32nd in state abortion rate
Mississippi 46.3 33rd
New Mexico 46.3 19th
South Carolina 40.1 28th
Delaware 39.9 3rd
Arizona 39.5 42nd
Florida 39.0 2nd
Georgia 37.3 17th
Nevada 37.2 9th
Arkansas 36.1 36th
Mean 40.8% of births out-of-wedlock 22nd in state abortion rate
States with the lowest percentage of births to unmarried women
have abortion rates near the national average (2001)xxxiv
State % Births Out of Wedlock Abortion Rank
Utah 17.4% of births out-of-wedlock 45th in state abortion rate
Idaho 22.0 46th
New Hampshire 24.2 n/a
Colorado 25.0 47th
Minnesota 26.3 20th
Massachusetts 26.7 7th
Nebraska 27.7 38th
North Dakota 27.9 41st
Iowa 28.8 34th
Washington 28.8 5th
Mean 25.5% of births out-of-wedlock 31st in state abortion rate
* Abortion statistics unavailable for California, New Hampshire, and Alaska. Louisiana and Florida figures
include out-of-state residents who had abortions performed in those states.

Part VI: Do Abortion Laws Affect Abortion Rates?
The evidence suggests that laws may affect abortion rates, but only modestly. Third
Way will be preparing a future issue brief on this subject but thought a few facts were
worth noting here. Women in states with restrictive laws will travel to other states to
have abortions. And even in foreign countries that restrict abortions entirely, millions of
abortions are performed.

Part VI, Finding #1
Nearly half of all abortions are performed in countries that have banned
the procedure.
• 97% of all abortions occur outside the United States.
• Of the 46 million abortions that are performed each year, 20 million (44%) occur in
countries where the procedure is illegal.xxxv

Part VI, Finding #2
The ratio of teen abortions to adult abortions is the same in states with
strong, moderate, and weak parental consent laws.
Teen abortion rates in states with strict parental consent laws are nearly half that of
states with no consent or notification laws in place. But teen abortion rates may have
less to do with the local laws and more to do with local views and demographics that
reduce the incidence of abortion in general. For example, though states with strict
consent laws have lower teen abortion rates than states with no laws, the ratio of teen
abortions to all abortions in these two sets of states is roughly the same.
The reason for this could be because parents of pregnant teens often demand that
their child undergo an abortion. It is quite possible that if teens were forced to notify
parents of a pregnancy, abortion rates would go up, not down.
• In 2001, abortions were performed on 33 out of 10,000 teens in states with strict
parental consent laws.
• In 2001, abortions were performed on 39 out of 10,000 teens in states with
moderate parental notification laws.
• In 2001, abortions were performed on 63 out of 10,000 teens in states with no
consent/notification laws.*xxxvi
But as a percentage of overall abortions in each of these categories of states, teen
abortions are close to the same suggesting that consent and notification laws have little
impact on abortion.
In 2001, teens represented 17.6% of all abortions in states with strict parental
consent laws, 17.0% of all abortions in states with moderate parental notification laws,
and 19.1% of all abortions in states with no consent/notification laws.xxxvii
* Alabama, Arizona, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri,
North Carolina, North Dakota, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, Wisconsin,
and Wyoming require the consent of at least one parent and allows for a judicial bypass.
Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, Georgia, Iowa, Kansas, Maryland, Minnesota, Nebraska, Ohio, South
Dakota, Texas, Utah, and West Virginia require the notification of at least one parent and all except Utah
allow for a judicial bypass. Alaska, California, Connecticut, Florida, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Montana,
Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oklahoma, Oregon, Vermont, and
Washington either have no law or a law that was struck down by the court. Abortion data are unavailable
for Alaska, California, Florida, and New Hampshire.
Percent of Abortions Sought by Teens and Adults,
By Type of Parental Involvement Law
0%
20%
40%
60%
80%
100%
Strict (parental consent) laws Moderate (parental
notification) laws
No consent/notification laws
Teens
Adults

Sources:
i Kaiser Foundation, “Abortion in the U.S. Fact Sheet,” January 2003.
ii Alan Guttmacher Institute and Physicians for Reproductive Choice, “An Overview of Abortion in the
United States,” 2003.
iii Henry J. Kaiser Foundation, “Abortion in the U.S Fact Sheet,” January 2003.
iv Guttmacher et al, “An Overview of Abortion in the United States,” 2003.
v National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy, “2002 National Survey of Family Growth,” December
2004.
vi Ibid.
vii Guttmacher, et al.
viii Source: Alan Guttmacher Institute and Physicians for Reproductive Choice, “An Overview of Abortion in
the United States,” 2003.
ix Centers for Disease Control, “Abortion ratio by age group of women who obtained a legal abortion,”
2001.
x Peter Kosik, “Differences in Income by Age,” 2003.
xi Ibid.
xii Guttmacher, et al.
xiii Gallup Poll, 12,000 interviews, yearly survey of religious preferences, 2003.
xiv Guttmacher, et al.
xv Gallup, 2003.
xvi Guttmacher et al.
xvii Ibid.
xviii Ibid.
xix Source: Centers for Disease Control, “Reported legal abortions, by number of previous legal induced
abortions,” 2001.
xx Guttmacher, et al.
xxi Ibid.
xxii Ibid.
xxiii William Saletan, Bearing Right: How Conservatives Won the Abortion War, page 192, University of
California Press, 2003.
xxiv Ibid.
xxv Ibid.
xxvi Guttmacher, et al.
xxvii Centers for Disease Control, Abortion Surveillance.
xxviii Source: National Center for Health Statistics, 2002.
xxix Centers for Disease Control, “Reported number, ratio, and rate of legal abortions by residence and
occurrence,” 2001.
xxx Ibid.
xxxi State parental consent laws were obtained from website for the Center for Reproductive Rights.
xxxii National Vital Statistics Report, December 17, 2003.
xxxiii National Center for Health Statistics, 2002.
xxxiv Ibid.
xxxv Guttmacher, et al.
xxxvi Centers for Disease Control, Report legal abortions, by age group of women who obtained an
abortion and state of occurrence, 2001.
xxxvii Ibid.

[Antipas]

Antipas, I applaud your ability to sweep away the foolish rhetoric of man-v-man yak and your attempt to bring the discussion back to an important consideration (and certainly THANKS are due Chris for the challenging introspection that this thread is attempting to provoke).

It is very reasonable that we each need to consider if an informed purchaser of goods and services would transact business with a centrally controlled economy that denies its citizen's the freedom to have more than one child.

Especially if we're Pro-Life. Doing business with a Communist regime like this is far worse than voting Democratic. Why are so many Christians druken with the promises of Free Trade without considering Fair Trade policies that protect human rights and local economies?

[Rico]

Good luck finding anything that isn't made in China, when you go to the store.

[Antipas]

In spite of the fact that I disagree with the premise of this thread, I personally try to purchase goods produced elsewhere and preferably the US. However, I am in a position to do that at this point. Many folks are on a very tight budget, and are effectively forced to buy the cheapest items. Not everyone can buy a Stihl chainsaw (made in a variety of countries but not China...yet). I hate Chinese junk. But that doesn't mean a purchase of Chinese junk is equal to forcing abortions. This is an old policy for the Chinese and they enforce it just like they always have.

Would you buy good from Nazi Germany if you were on a "tight budget"?

[Antipas]

I think the point made in the post by ChristopherHall wasn't political...it was spiritual. Review what was said,

No. I doubt we could do much to change trade policies.

But...as we speak there is much anguish being felt and much pressure on the Chinese government over the issue. Now is the time to hit our knees and go to war, praying that China change it's policies in this area in some measure, in the hopes that God relents.

Now is also a time to consider that if we do not pray for changes in China... and we do not pray for our own nation's willingness to ignore the most blatant of human rights violations for profit... we may very well be next in line to reap the whirlwind. The stars shall fall from over America, the sun shall become black and the moon will not give her light. And the merchants who were made rich by her idolatry and materialism will hide in the dens and in the rocks. There they shall weep as their gold becomes cankered and their garments moth eaten. As the LORD smote the gods of Egypt so shall he smite the god of America, for much of her profits are drenched in the blood of children and the tears of the oppressed.

There are ways to shop that ensure that you do the majority of your business with Fair Trade sources.

[tbpew]

Good luck finding anything that isn't made in China, when you go to the store.

Hey Rico,
I hear ya.
I wonder how long we would have to boycott non-perishable items at Walmart before they would take notice?

My guess....90 days.
Can we manage without plastic thermos, inflatiable rafts, CD's, and motion lights for three months?

We all seem to want to possess mor and more plastic junk, but if there was a cause, I think the mothers who are doing all this shopping would be very empathetic with the mothers in China who are being denied the right to have a second or third child.

[DividedThigh]

i am an american who votes his conscience and heart consistently, i dont live in china, what happens there is well beyond the pervue of my authority and responsibility, i am accountable to god for myself and my house, i dont and will not be guilty for what the chinese governtment does to there people, they are communists i am not, i pray for them constantly, that is all i can do for them now, dt

[Rico]

Good luck with your boycott. Christians accomplished zilch with their boycott of Disney and y'all think boycotting Chinese made products is going to make a difference in Chinese birth control? Yeah right.

[Baron1710]

You make some good points; please site where you’re statistics came from.



You’re placing the benefits of economic policies above morality. Would you support free and open trade with Nazi Germany if the ovens and gas chambers were in use?



China is a communist country. Factories etc. are chartered and essentially owned by the government and only operated by private interests. Therefore the factory is an extension of government in China. The government of China benefits from revenues generated by trade with the US through taxation and global recognition and respect.

I’d really appreciate it if you would answer this question:

Would you support free and open trade with Nazi Germany if the ovens and gas chambers were in use? Yes or No?

I fear the assumption of this thread is right. We don’t care about human life or rights if the price is right. If you buy Chinese, you're voting with your dollar. Just as if you were buying Nazi German goods during WWII. Morally, one should strive to only buy from Fair Trade networks that respect human rights.

The forced abortion rooms of China are worse than the rape rooms in Iraq.

You continue to avoid the issues presented by the WND article.

Sure I will provide the website I got the numbers from, which are pretty much the same as what you posted though you didn't say which group provided the "analysis" for those numbers. Mind letting us know where that came from?

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html
The following is a list of useful abortion statistics as well as some facts on abortifacients. All abortion numbers are derived from pro-abortion sources courtesy of The Alan Guttmacher Institute and Planned Parenthood's Family Planning Perspectives.

As to the way they skew the numbers I am sure you can find it, I simply related my own experience from dealing with places like PP (which I will not elaborate on) who have reported questionable if not outright lies for years to provide statistics that are helpful to their industry.

I don't think the Germany question has a yes or no answer. There are a number of factors that should be taken into consideration. Not all of them are obvious. Sometimes the flow of money to a nation and the threat of eliminating it is more effective than no flow at all. questions such as the is it available elsewhere? Who receives the profit from it? US companies often receive the major portion of those profits. When Intel has its chips manufactured in China they retain most of the money you pay for it.

I have already said I have a great dislike for purchasing Chinese junk, but I don't think the answers are as easy as some of you would like to think.

[tbpew]

Good luck with your boycott. Christians accomplished zilch with their boycott of Disney and y'all think boycotting Chinese made products is going to make a difference in Chinese birth control? Yeah right.
so rico,
can we put you down in the YES column that you would just say "what's the use" and would have bought the lower cost toasters from Nazi Germany? Just curious, is there anything other than price that would prompt action in your personal buying decisions?

[Rico]

so rico,
can we put you down in the YES column that you would just say "what's the use" and would have bought the lower cost toasters from Nazi Germany?

I don't care what column you put me in. If you want to do something to effect a change in Chinese policy work towards having its favored nation status revoked. Also, China is not a country we are at war with, so the Nazi Germany analogy pretty much sucks buttermilk.

[tbpew]

I don't care what column you put me in. If you want to do something to effect a change in Chinese policy work towards having its favored nation status revoked. Also, China is not a country we are at war with, so the Nazi Germany analogy pretty much sucks buttermilk.
Conversation with you always feels like its on the brink of disgust.

So Rico,
Is there anything other than price that would prompt action in your personal buying decisions?

[Rico]

Conversation with you always feels like its on the brink of disgust.

So Rico,
Is there anything other than price that would prompt action in your personal buying decisions?


Hehehe! At least you can understand what I am saying.

You might be surprised to find out that I actually tried avoiding Chinese made products a few years ago. Not because of their record on abortion, but because I wanted to buy as much American made products as I could. That's why I wish you luck in boycotting Chinese made products.

[Antipas]

i am an american who votes his conscience and heart consistently, i dont live in china, what happens there is well beyond the pervue of my authority and responsibility, i am accountable to god for myself and my house, i dont and will not be guilty for what the chinese governtment does to there people, they are communists i am not, i pray for them constantly, that is all i can do for them now, dt

Aggghhh. lol Everyone's missing the point made. The point made was one of prayer and repentance. Not politics.

But everyone's only looking at this politically. What's happened to you guys? Is there such a word as “hyperpoliticoneurosis”? lol

But let's look at your remarks dt, since we’re obviously going to focus on the politics. What happens here is within your authority and responsibility, as you admit. Your vote will determine if you support a candidate that will continue ignoring the brazen human rights violations of China in favor of free trade and profits...or if you will support a candidate that would pressure China through holding them to various Fair Trade standards.

[Antipas]

I don't think the Germany question has a yes or no answer. There are a number of factors that should be taken into consideration. Not all of them are obvious. Sometimes the flow of money to a nation and the threat of eliminating it is more effective than no flow at all. questions such as the is it available elsewhere? Who receives the profit from it? US companies often receive the major portion of those profits. When Intel has its chips manufactured in China they retain most of the money you pay for it.

I have already said I have a great dislike for purchasing Chinese junk, but I don't think the answers are as easy as some of you would like to think.

So essentially you would do business by buying from Nazi Germany if you believed the economic partnership would reform their system. How would you feel if your elected officials began making major profits off of such free trade policies without pressuring Nazi Germany to change because it would increase the cost of doing business and all they focused on were lower and lower production costs?

[Antipas]

Boycotts won’t work. It might relieve one’s individual conscience but that’s about it.

Politically all one can do is support elected officials who push for Fair Trade as opposed to Free Trade.

As I see it, the issue becomes:

Fair Trade vs. Free Trade

[DividedThigh]

Aggghhh. lol Everyone's missing the point made. The point made was one of prayer and repentance. Not politics.

But everyone's only looking at this politically. What's happened to you guys? Is there such a word as “hyperpoliticoneurosis”? lol

But let's look at your remarks dt, since we’re obviously going to focus on the politics. What happens here is within your authority and responsibility, as you admit. Your vote will determine if you support a candidate that will continue ignoring the brazen human rights violations of China in favor of free trade and profits...or if you will support a candidate that would pressure China through holding them to various Fair Trade standards.

my vote will be my responsibility and none of your business, if you want to put on the yoke of guilt for what is going on in china then do it, i wont be joining your party, you making assumptions of whether i am thinking politically or not is a mistake on your part, i was thinking with my heart, dont ever assume what i am thinking, if i want you to know that, i will tell you, enjoy, dt

[tbpew]

Boycotts won’t work. It might relieve one’s individual conscience but that’s about it.

Politically all one can do is support elected officials who push for Fair Trade as opposed to Free Trade.

As I see it, the issue becomes:

Fair Trade vs. Free Trade

the issue from our end, involves our role/choice in enabling the transaction of commerce, so what other approach then financial transactions will express our opinion? Mothers all across America need to be atleast as well informed about the fist of government in a Chinese mother's reproductive choices as they are about the governmental forces that crushed public dissent. From that understanding, let America's moms make their purchasing choices.

What's missing is the focus on the mandatory birth control. Instead, we are fixated on the suppression of political expression that was revealed by bullets flying in Tieniman Square (I assume its because our own government applauds the wisdom of such a managed population policy).

Democracy is not even close to a God-given right.
The ability to have children is.

[Baron1710]

So essentially you would do business by buying from Nazi Germany if you believed the economic partnership would reform their system. How would you feel if your elected officials began making major profits off of such free trade policies without pressuring Nazi Germany to change because it would increase the cost of doing business and all they focused on were lower and lower production costs?

Wasn't there a thread recently that said when the other side resorts to the Nazi card they have run out of arguments and you win?

So unlike Obama who is afraid to push Clinton out, I will declare my victory since I have become the supporter of Nazi Germany by refusing to acknowledge the "Did you quit beating your wife" yes or no question.

[Cindy]

People often just don't know what to say. Maybe the best thing to say is "I know there is probably nothing I can say that will make things better but I just want you to know I will be praying for you"

Oh there were a lot of people that were very loving and kind Prax, even people that I didn't know that came and helped clean my house, cook, etc. And you know had I not known the grace of God my response probably would have been a lot different also.

[Antipas]

my vote will be my responsibility and none of your business, if you want to put on the yoke of guilt for what is going on in china then do it, i wont be joining your party, you making assumptions of whether i am thinking politically or not is a mistake on your part, i was thinking with my heart, dont ever assume what i am thinking, if i want you to know that, i will tell you, enjoy, dt

dt, are you going to take your ball and go home? Lol

Nobody’s trying to make you feel guilty. The only thing I can see that might make one feel guilty is if they support Free Trade over Fair Trade. Morally, it’s hard to justify seeing the abuses in other countries. In my opinion Fair Trade is a more moral trade policy and it seeks to protect and preserve human rights. In China…that would mean a right to be born.

But this does take us in another direction. Can one see why a Christian might feel Fair Trade over Free Trade is a very important issue when considering their vote? Protecting the human rights of hundreds of millions of people, not to mention the issue of 400 forced abortions in China could justify making it a preeminent moral issue of the day in regards to national policy. I know it’s not as exciting as abortion and gay marriage….but it’s something to think about.

[DividedThigh]

first of all it aint my ball, good thing you aint tryin to make feel guilt, it aint happenin, the southerner said, but isnt that what this thread is about, should we, i say no, i would love to see the commies out in china, but they rule with guns are we willing to take them out, i think not, not enough guts for that in this country right now for sure, dt

[Antipas]

first of all it aint my ball, good thing you aint tryin to make feel guilt, it aint happenin, the southerner said, but isnt that what this thread is about, should we, i say no, i would love to see the commies out in china, but they rule with guns are we willing to take them out, i think not, not enough guts for that in this country right now for sure, dt

Well…especially not after being baited into a questionable war.

[Antipas]

the issue from our end, involves our role/choice in enabling the transaction of commerce, so what other approach then financial transactions will express our opinion? Mothers all across America need to be at least as well informed about the fist of government in a Chinese mother's reproductive choices as they are about the governmental forces that crushed public dissent. From that understanding, let America's moms make their purchasing choices.

What's missing is the focus on the mandatory birth control. Instead, we are fixated on the suppression of political expression that was revealed by bullets flying in Tieniman Square (I assume its because our own government applauds the wisdom of such a managed population policy).

Democracy is not even close to a God-given right.
The ability to have children is.

Interesting point tbpew. But sadly most just want to save money and don't think much about the details and differences between trade policies. Most probably don't even understand the difference between Fair Trade and Free Trade.

[Antipas]

Wasn't there a thread recently that said when the other side resorts to the Nazi card they have run out of arguments and you win?

So unlike Obama who is afraid to push Clinton out, I will declare my victory since I have become the supporter of Nazi Germany by refusing to acknowledge the "Did you quit beating your wife" yes or no question.

Baron, you’re not really seeing it. The issue is that there is an option in policy: Fair Trade vs. Free Trade. Which do you support?

Also consider how we focus on moral issues…but we dare not mention this one…it might cost us money.

[Baron1710]

Baron, you’re not really seeing it. The issue is that there is an option in policy: Fair Trade vs. Free Trade. Which do you support?

Also consider how we focus on moral issues…but we dare not mention this one…it might cost us money.

Maybe you are not seeing it. You sound like the protesters I pass everyday here in DC. FAIR TRADE NOT FREE TRADE:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah...ve ry simplistic answer to a complex issue.

But what do I know I'm just a Nazi supporter.

[SOUNWORTHY]

I've heard it said that God uses earthquakes to speak to the spiritually deaf.

Are we listening?

Brace yourselves and don't vote for Abama .:boxing

I think CH sometimes speeks with forked tongue!! oops I added last five words, just something CH left out.:bliss

[Ferd]

Baron, you’re not really seeing it. The issue is that there is an option in policy: Fair Trade vs. Free Trade. Which do you support?

Also consider how we focus on moral issues…but we dare not mention this one…it might cost us money.

Fair trade isnt really about fairness. it is about getting people in other countries to live by the value system of the rich west.

it is typical tyrany of the left.

[Antipas]

Maybe you are not seeing it. You sound like the protesters I pass everyday here in DC. FAIR TRADE NOT FREE TRADE:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah...ve ry simplistic answer to a complex issue.

But what do I know I'm just a Nazi supporter.

Fair Trade is a pretty complex deal. And at least it's an answer. The consensus appears to be that we as Christians don't care and shouldn't care.

[Ferd]

Fair Trade is a pretty complex deal. And at least it's an answer. The consensus appears to be that we as Christians don't care and shouldn't care.

Fair trade summed up:

You will starve to death unless you do what I tell you when I tell you then I will buy your goods! Bad poor person! Bad bad!

[DividedThigh]

bad boy ferd, behave now you might stir up the libs, lol,dt

[Antipas]

Fair trade isnt really about fairness. it is about getting people in other countries to live by the value system of the rich west.

it is typical tyrany of the left.

Who needs human rights, right ferd? And God knows they aren’t at all interesting in escaping the slave labor sweatshops and unsafe work environments to get to the United States where they can have these God given rights we cherish.

[Ferd]

Who needs human rights, right ferd? And God knows they aren’t at all interesting in escaping the slave labor sweatshops and unsafe work environments to get to the United States where they can have these God given rights we cherish.

ahh yes baby killers aswaging their guilt by telling us we need to bully poor contries around in the name of human rights.

these are the same people that turn to the UN Human Rights commision for validation.

an organization with esteemed members like Lybia and Syria. what ever dude.

fair trade is just another attempt to find a complex solution to a simple problem.

which is quite typical of the supremely intelegent morons that seem to infest your side of the debate.

[Ferd]

bad boy ferd, behave now you might stir up the libs, lol,dt

LOL! By the way, the sonogram was good. Mom and baby Jack are doing fine.

he is 4 lbs 5oz or so. heart is great everything looked good, expect he is still breach but there is still time for him to turn.

[mizpeh]

Fair trade summed up:

You will starve to death unless you do what I tell you when I tell you then I will buy your goods! Bad poor person! Bad bad!

Really? If a poor country can't trade with the US then they are all going to starve?

[DividedThigh]

LOL! By the way, the sonogram was good. Mom and baby Jack are doing fine.

he is 4 lbs 5oz or so. heart is great everything looked good, expect he is still breach but there is still time for him to turn.

that is great news, cool another non aborted kid, cool and his name is jack, middle name bauer or something like that , lol:happydance

[Antipas]

Really? If a poor country can't trade with the US then they are all going to starve?

Ferd doesn't care. That's obvious. Some are only as Christian as their political Conservatism will allow them to be.

[Ferd]

Really? If a poor country can't trade with the US then they are all going to starve?

?

well, it isnt just America that is full of left wingnuts preaching the gospel of fair trade. it is pretty much the entire west and all the marxists around the world in general and their idiotic greenick buddies...(this is me being nice)

And believe me, Fair trade isnt about America telling Eqidor to be nice to its poor people or we wont trade with them. it is the west telling Equidor exactly how their government is to work, how they are not supposed to polute anything, how they are supposed to treat their crops for pests and such (ie not use chemicals) how they are supposed to live "at one with nature" etc.

Fair trade is about the more "evolved" telling the cromagnons of the world how to live their lives, and it is right out of the Karl Marx play book.

Fair trade is anything BUT fair. (oh the preachers of fair trade also get to set the prices because the free market isnt fair, and the preachers of the fair trade gospel get to tell the sellers of the goods how to spend their profits. )

[DividedThigh]

Ferd doesn't care. That's obvious. Some are only as Christian as their political Conservatism will allow them to be.

how would you know that, that isnt even nice friend, you can argue politics all day without being personal, dt:boxing

[Baron1710]

how would you know that, that isnt even nice friend, you can argue politics all day without being personal, dt:boxing

No, thats not how it works. When you run out of facts you just attack the person or tell them they are a Nazi.

[DividedThigh]

No, thats not how it works. When you run out of facts you just attack the person or tell them they are a Nazi.

oh, is that it, ok, thanks for the enlightenment, now i know what it means when they call me names and act ugly, lol,dt:happydance

[Antipas]

ahh yes baby killers aswaging their guilt by telling us we need to bully poor contries around in the name of human rights.

these are the same people that turn to the UN Human Rights commision for validation.

an organization with esteemed members like Lybia and Syria. what ever dude.

fair trade is just another attempt to find a complex solution to a simple problem.

which is quite typical of the supremely intelegent morons that seem to infest your side of the debate.

The article and information presented was from WorldNetDaily. That’s hardly a liberal source. Here’s an excerpt from the article:


But how are U.S. residents a part? Because, she told WND, the exploding consumer goods market for Chinese-made products puts pressure on Chinese manufacturers to increase production; they put pressure on workers to put in long hours at the plants, and there's no room in the equation for child-bearing. The result? Forced abortions.

Most Favored Nation trading status for China gives the nation an official U.S. endorsement of its internal actions, and the lust for money has, if anything, increased the demand for such policies, she said.

Millions of American dollars funneled through United Nations programs to China simply pay the expenses, she said.

Did you read the article? Comment on the article instead of attack people who disagree with you or who are concerned with things you obviously don’t care about.

[Antipas]

Dt consider these words from ferd

well, it isnt just America that is full of left wingnuts preaching the gospel of fair trade. it is pretty much the entire west and all the marxists around the world in general and their idiotic greenick buddies...(this is me being nice)

ahh yes baby killers aswaging their guilt by telling us we need to bully poor contries around in the name of human rights.

Now read what you wrote in response to my comment about how some are only Christian as far as their political conservatism will allow them to be

how would you know that, that isnt even nice friend, you can argue politics all day without being personal, dt

I think calling someone who might disagree with you (Ferd) a “marxist”, “idiotic greenick”, and “baby killer” is a bit personal and upsetting. So I simply expressed that the Christianity exhibited by some obviously only reaches as far as their conservative politics. Go back and read post by post. I assure you that you will see the conservative side throwing quite a few personal attacks without even addressing the subject. So don’t be such a cry baby. LOL

[DividedThigh]

Dt consider these words from ferd





Now read what you wrote in response to my comment about how some are only Christian as far as their political conservatism will allow them to be



I think calling someone who might disagree with you (Ferd) a “marxist”, “idiotic greenick”, and “baby killer” is a bit personal and upsetting. So I simply expressed that the Christianity exhibited by some obviously only reaches as far as their conservative politics. Go back and read post by post. I assure you that you will see the conservative side throwing quite a few personal attacks without even addressing the subject. So don’t be such a cry baby. LOL

just because others get into the mud doesnt mean you have to friend, i havent insulted you, i aint crying, you aint got that much power, dont kid your self, dt

[Antipas]

No, thats not how it works. When you run out of facts you just attack the person or tell them they are a Nazi.

The question was, would you advocate free trade with Nazi Germany? You're answer was yes. I didn't call you anything, you answered that you'd trade with Nazi Germany.

[Ferd]

No, thats not how it works. When you run out of facts you just attack the person or tell them they are a Nazi.

You are a Nazi and I just dont care! LOL!

if we were more evolved we would worship at the alter of Antipas and get him to tell us what to do with our money!

[Antipas]

just because others get into the mud doesnt mean you have to friend, i havent insulted you, i aint crying, you aint got that much power, dont kid your self, dt

Ah, but you are crying. lol

And isn't that a bit hypocritical?

So let's stop being personal and let's talk about the subject.

Dt, would you advocate free trade with Nazi Germany? Don't you think we have a moral responsibility to do business in favor of human rights as opposed to sanctioning things such as forced abortion with our free trade policy?

[DividedThigh]

You are a Nazi and I just dont care! LOL!

if we were more evolved we would worship at the alter of Antipas and get him to tell us what to do with our money!

that'll be the day, ferd, you funny, dt

[DividedThigh]

Ah, but you are crying. lol

And isn't that a bit hypocritical?

So let's stop being personal and let's talk about the subject.

Dt, would you advocate free trade with Nazi Germany?

you dont know me, or i would put a bop on your head like i used to to my brother when he was talkin smart, lol

[Ferd]

The article and information presented was from WorldNetDaily. That’s hardly a liberal source. Here’s an excerpt from the article:



Did you read the article? Comment on the article instead of attack people who disagree with you or who are concerned with things you obviously don’t care about.
Antipas, I have a rule. I don’t read WND. I find the agenda (even when it is Christian and politically conservative) to drive their news. They will sacrifice truth for position.

Is it true on some level that women have abortions because they are working and can’t afford to have children? Possibly. But these women also have access to contraception and they have the option to delay having their one child. At what point does personal responsibility come to play.

Oh wait, personal responsibility is a dirty word isn’t it?

[Ferd]

that'll be the day, ferd, you funny, dt

we have to figure out what you are. lets see.

maybe we are the old axis
Baron is Hitler.
I must be Hirohito
and you must be Mussolini!

[Antipas]

You are a Nazi and I just dont care! LOL!

if we were more evolved we would worship at the alter of Antipas and get him to tell us what to do with our money!

Do you practice a faith that transends the value you place on your money?

No one is telling you what to do with your money, but we are discussing the moral implications of what we do with our money and our trade policies. Try to be an adult here bro ferd.

[Baron1710]

The question was, would you advocate free trade with Nazi Germany? You're answer was yes. I didn't call you anything, you answered that you'd trade with Nazi Germany.

That was not my answer. My answer was it depends. You tried to ask the "Did you quit beating your wife" question, demanding a yes or no answer. You were attempting to put me in the Nazi camp. Your complete mischaracterization of my answer shows your inability to evaluate the situation without lumping me in with the Nazis.

[Antipas]

Ferd would you freely trade with any human rights violator if it would save you money...even if that money was soaked in the blood of 400 million children? You're statements are indicating that you proudly would, and wave an American flag while doing it.

[Ferd]

Dt consider these words from ferd





Now read what you wrote in response to my comment about how some are only Christian as far as their political conservatism will allow them to be



I think calling someone who might disagree with you (Ferd) a “marxist”, “idiotic greenick”, and “baby killer” is a bit personal and upsetting. So I simply expressed that the Christianity exhibited by some obviously only reaches as far as their conservative politics. Go back and read post by post. I assure you that you will see the conservative side throwing quite a few personal attacks without even addressing the subject. So don’t be such a cry baby. LOL


Well Fairtraders generally speaking are Marxists and greenicks and all greenicks are idiots. and in general anyone supporting the democratic wing of the democratic party are baby killers so as upsetting as it may be, it is accurate.

and by the way, the vast majority of fair traders have no issue what so ever with China's one child policy. in fact, they generally work from their green idiocracy and believe we need to reduce the human population everywhere.

they LIKE abortion.

Just because a handfull of christians have decided to ally with baby killers in the name of stopping baby killing doesnt mean i have to join the cause.

Personally i dont like China as it is right now, but I also know that if we arent careful we will find ourselves at war with them and then you can hang it up. Abortion wont be the sin. the sin will be a billion dead people.

[Antipas]

That was not my answer. My answer was it depends. You tried to ask the "Did you quit beating your wife" question, demanding a yes or no answer. You were attempting to put me in the Nazi camp. Your complete mischaracterization of my answer shows your inability to evaluate the situation without lumping me in with the Nazis.

It depends is a way of saying "yes" without being upfront enough to say "yes".

[DividedThigh]

we have to figure out what you are. lets see.

maybe we are the old axis
Baron is Hitler.
I must be Hirohito
and you must be Mussolini!

no thanks on mussie boy, i will take stalin, lol

[Ferd]

Dt consider these words from ferd





Now read what you wrote in response to my comment about how some are only Christian as far as their political conservatism will allow them to be



I think calling someone who might disagree with you (Ferd) a “marxist”, “idiotic greenick”, and “baby killer” is a bit personal and upsetting. So I simply expressed that the Christianity exhibited by some obviously only reaches as far as their conservative politics. Go back and read post by post. I assure you that you will see the conservative side throwing quite a few personal attacks without even addressing the subject. So don’t be such a cry baby. LOL


and one more thing. as the resident conservitive, (or one of them anyway) I have addressed this issue quite completley.

[Ferd]

Do you practice a faith that transends the value you place on your money?

No one is telling you what to do with your money, but we are discussing the moral implications of what we do with our money and our trade policies. Try to be an adult here bro ferd.

LOL! lookie here. A Christian that allies himself with commie baby killers dressing me down on how I practice my faith.


Son, you listen real close. I don’t owe you a single sentence on how I practice my faith. You have allied with those that oppress in the name of climate change and population control!

Once again our friend rides with the “when did you stop beating your wife” line of questioning. You don’t get any answers bud.

[Ferd]

Ferd would you freely trade with any human rights violator if it would save you money...even if that money was soaked in the blood of 400 million children? You're statements are indicating that you proudly would, and wave an American flag while doing it.

Antipas would you freely ally yourself with communists who believe in exteme population control in the name of human rights?

[Baron1710]

It depends is a way of saying "yes" without being upfront enough to say "yes".

In my world "It depends" means the answer could be, “yes” or “no” depending on the facts. To those of us who are conservatives, and almost Christians, words mean things. “It depends”, means your question cannot be fully answered with yes or no.

[Antipas]

Well Fairtraders generally speaking are Marxists and greenicks and all greenicks are idiots. and in general anyone supporting the democratic wing of the democratic party are baby killers so as upsetting as it may be, it is accurate.

That is untrue. There are many Democrats, mainly Catholics, who do not support abortion. There are even dedicated Pro-Life Democrats with Pro-Life voting records. Why lie like this? There are even devout Apostolics who vote Democratic on occasion. Don’t you see how you’re beginning to sound like nothing but a pawn of right wing politics?

and by the way, the vast majority of fair traders have no issue what so ever with China's one child policy. in fact, they generally work from their green idiocracy and believe we need to reduce the human population everywhere.

Fair trade advocates have denounced China’s one child policy since 1993 ferdie boy. Forcing a woman to have an abortion is a violation of human rights worse than rape.

they LIKE abortion.

As an advocate of fair trade I have to say that’s very upsetting. I disagree, I don’t like abortion. I’m crying out against China’s policy, you’re defending our policies that sanction their forced abortion policy. I think YOU like abortion…if you can save a dollar at your local Wal-Mart.

Just because a handfull of christians have decided to ally with baby killers in the name of stopping baby killing doesnt mean i have to join the cause.

Evidently you’re incapable of being civil. You don’t have to join their cause, but you can acknowledge that some of us are working to make changes from the other side are brothers and sisters entitled to some respect instead of calling us baby killers and the like.

Personally i dont like China as it is right now, but I also know that if we arent careful we will find ourselves at war with them and then you can hang it up. Abortion wont be the sin. the sin will be a billion dead people.

If we’re not careful? China needs to be careful.

I was reflecting on a post above. Do you think the earthquake may have been a judgment from God seeing that it’s generated a groundswell of outcry against their one child policy?

[Antipas]

In my world "It depends" means the answer could be, “yes” or “no” depending on the facts. To those of us who are conservatives, and almost Christians, words mean things. “It depends”, means your question cannot be fully answered with yes or no.

Not so. If a liberal said, "it depends", we all know the rule...they're being wishy washy. And so are you.

[mizpeh]

?

well, it isnt just America that is full of left wingnuts preaching the gospel of fair trade. it is pretty much the entire west and all the marxists around the world in general and their idiotic greenick buddies...(this is me being nice)

And believe me, Fair trade isnt about America telling Eqidor to be nice to its poor people or we wont trade with them. it is the west telling Equidor exactly how their government is to work, how they are not supposed to polute anything, how they are supposed to treat their crops for pests and such (ie not use chemicals) how they are supposed to live "at one with nature" etc.

Fair trade is about the more "evolved" telling the cromagnons of the world how to live their lives, and it is right out of the Karl Marx play book.

Fair trade is anything BUT fair. (oh the preachers of fair trade also get to set the prices because the free market isnt fair, and the preachers of the fair trade gospel get to tell the sellers of the goods how to spend their profits. )

Thanks for reminding me how much I dislike politics! :)

[Ferd]

That is untrue. There are many Democrats, mainly Catholics, who do not support abortion. There are even dedicated Pro-Life Democrats with Pro-Life voting records. Why lie like this? There are even devout Apostolics who vote Democratic on occasion. Don’t you see how you’re beginning to sound like nothing but a pawn of right wing politics?



Fair trade advocates have denounced China’s one child policy since 1993 ferdie boy. Forcing a woman to have an abortion is a violation of human rights worse than rape.



As an advocate of fair trade I have to say that’s very upsetting. I disagree, I don’t like abortion. I’m crying out against China’s policy, you’re defending our policies that sanction their forced abortion policy. I think YOU like abortion…if you can save a dollar at your local Wal-Mart.



Evidently you’re incapable of being civil. You don’t have to join their cause, but you can acknowledge that some of us are working to make changes from the other side are brothers and sisters entitled to some respect instead of calling us baby killers and the like.



If we’re not careful? China needs to be careful.

I was reflecting on a post above. Do you think the earthquake may have been a judgment from God seeing that it’s generated a groundswell of outcry against their one child policy?

the only thing you got right here is that i am incapapble of being civil.

the rest of what you said is drivil.

on the very first point, you sound exactly like Chirs Hall. ARE YOU?

i said the democrat wing of the democrat party. i stand by the statement. you ally with baby killers and guys who like to parade down the street in buttless chaps decrying the descrimination queers suffer because we dont like seeing them in buttless chaps. I dont care how christian you are, those are your allies! YUCK.

more over, YOU may decry abortion but you are VASTLY wrong on the subject of world population and free trade. Free traders have long been part of the liberal/green world. and THAT world (taking from the green bible Earth in the Balance) clearly has identified world population as one of the largest problems facing us today. Free Traders may be paying lipservice to the notion of ending forced abortions in China but they SUPPORT The UN Human Right Commission (run by terrorist and other horrible HR violators). They SUPPORT efforts to reduce human populations around the world. AND they support communist nations in general.

Free Traders ARE part of the Liberal/Green alliance and they stand against freedom!

[Baron1710]

Not so. If a liberal said, "it depends", we all know the rule...they're being wishy washy. And so are you.

I spent 3 years and $80,000, and passed the DC bar exam (something Hillary couldn't do). Guess what I learned in three years? And what answer got me a pass on the bar? "IT DEPENDS"!!!! So I don't find it wishy washy, I find that the facts change the answer.

[HeavenlyOne]

Would you buy good from Nazi Germany if you were on a "tight budget"?

To be honest, if you knew where every dollar you spent was being used for, in order to be consistent, you'd have to be a hermit and live off the land. You couldn't drive a vehicle, shop at any store, buy any item including Bibles, or see any physicians.

Oh, and you won't have utilities because those are really tax dollars, and you know what those are used for.

Would I buy from Nazi Germany? Yes. What's my alternative, buying from the United States??

[DividedThigh]

HO, as always honest, maybe to honest for the faint of heart, but i will take it, dt

[Antipas]

Antipas would you freely ally yourself with communists who believe in exteme population control in the name of human rights?

No. And don’t’ be idiotic. Not every human rights or Fair Trade advocate is a communist. And not all who advocate environmental safety rules are green peace extremists. Don’t you realize that over 600,000 children die a year from mercury poisoning as a direct result of free trade policies that have no environmental safety requirements. It’s not all about global warming. It’s about clean water. But you don’t give a *........*, of course you’d probably be more upset with me if I used the “s” word than the fact that 600,000 children died of mercury poisoning as a result of our failure to enforce Fair Trade environmental standards in international trade and manufacturing.

Don't be so stupid as to throw the baby out with the bath water.

[Antipas]

I spent 3 years and $80,000, and passed the DC bar exam (something Hillary couldn't do). Guess what I learned in three years? And what answer got me a pass on the bar? "IT DEPENDS"!!!! So I don't find it wishy washy, I find that the facts change the answer.

So you're lawyer? Now I know I can't trust a word you say. LOL

[Encryptus]

I spent 3 years and $80,000, and passed the DC bar exam (something Hillary couldn't do). Guess what I learned in three years? And what answer got me a pass on the bar? "IT DEPENDS"!!!! So I don't find it wishy washy, I find that the facts change the answer.

And a decent retainer will also lead to a quicker definite answer, huh?

[DividedThigh]

And a decent retainer will also lead to a quicker definite answer, huh?

it would for me, dt

[Baron1710]

And a decent retainer will also lead to a quicker definite answer, huh?

No, it still depends. But for the right retainer I can take your side and try to get the judge to see it your way.

[DividedThigh]

No, it still depends. But for the right retainer I can take your side and try to get the judge to see it your way.

that was my quick answer to, lol,dt:toofunny

[Antipas]

To be honest, if you knew where every dollar you spent was being used for, in order to be consistent, you'd have to be a hermit and live off the land. You couldn't drive a vehicle, shop at any store, buy any item including Bibles, or see any physicians.

Oh, and you won't have utilities because those are really tax dollars, and you know what those are used for.

Very true OH. I don’t think anyone would say we have to do something like that. We can’t avoid it. But if we were to do anything other than ignore the problem we’d be advocates for Fair Trade and human rights; for example, the right for a woman to vote or to not be forced by the government to abort her baby.

Would I buy from Nazi Germany? Yes. What's my alternative, buying from the United States??

I wouldn’t if I could help it. But I would definitely support action to put pressure on German for human rights violations.

[Ferd]

No. And don’t’ be idiotic. Not every human rights or Fair Trade advocate is a communist. And not all who advocate environmental safety rules are green peace extremists. Don’t you realize that over 600,000 children die a year from mercury poisoning as a direct result of free trade policies that have no environmental safety requirements. It’s not all about global warming. It’s about clean water. But you don’t give a *........*, of course you’d probably be more upset with me if I used the “s” word than the fact that 600,000 children died of mercury poisoning as a result of our failure to enforce Fair Trade environmental standards in international trade and manufacturing.

Don't be so stupid as to throw the baby out with the bath water.

well, to start with your telling me what i care about is once again quite off the mark. which i find quite typical of your ilk. (you do a good job representing your ilk).

we arent talking about what I belive. we are talking about the very idiotic solution you have offered.

600,000 children die from mercury poisoning every year. and you know this because your buddies went out and counted the bodies? really?

good job. you guys do excelent work.

the problem is your buddies just past law in America that moves us away from incandecent light bulbs to florecent ones in the name of ecology. only problem is, these bulbs are full of MERCURY. your actions are drowning out your words.

you want me to tell you what KILLS LOTS OF KIDS? Famine! and guess what? in the name of ecology we are now turning FOOD INTO GAS and kids are starving! Fairtraders havent said a word because fairtraders are geenicks.

[Antipas]

Do any of you “free traders” support normalization and free trade with Cuba? If not, why?

[Ferd]

Do any of you “free traders” support normalization and free trade with Cuba? If not, why?

No because Cuban Americans vote Republican

[DividedThigh]

i think i smell chris hall somewhere close, lol,dt

[Antipas]

well, to start with your telling me what i care about is once again quite off the mark. which i find quite typical of your ilk. (you do a good job representing your ilk).

By your words you are known.

we arent talking about what I belive. we are talking about the very idiotic solution you have offered.

No. I’m addressing your crass and uncivil behavior. The subject will not get attention until you can discuss it beyond the Cro-Magnon approach to discourse you’re engaging in. You’re talking to brothers and sisters in the Lord. Sure, you may disagree with them politically on several levels. But you certainly should be intelligent enough to realize calling people “baby killers”, “communists”, “idiotic greenies”, isn’t a grownup or even a Christian way of discussing an issue. I know an Apostolic woman who is currently teaching in China. She is a strong advocate of fair trade and human rights. Not everyone believes exactly like you ferdie boy. And it only demonstrates your uncouth nature when you stoop below your Christian moorings to be so insulting.

600,000 children die from mercury poisoning every year. and you know this because your buddies went out and counted the bodies? really?

Don’t be stupid. The numbers come from the Center for Children's Health and the Environment
Mount Sinai School of Medicine.

good job. you guys do excelent work.

Keep Sis. Meeks (our sister in China) in prayer. That would be much more appreciated than your sarcasm.

the problem is your buddies just past law in America that moves us away from incandecent light bulbs to florecent ones in the name of ecology. only problem is, these bulbs are full of MERCURY. your actions are drowning out your words.

Not everyone voted in favor of that measure, nor does everyone agree with the idea. You’re painting with too broad a brush ferdie boy.

you want me to tell you what KILLS LOTS OF KIDS? Famine! and guess what? in the name of ecology we are now turning FOOD INTO GAS and kids are starving! Fairtraders havent said a word because fairtraders are geenicks.

We agree here. It’s obvious that we should invest in more efficient fuel technologies. And those who are advocates of fair trade are speaking out together with conservatives that the ethanol effort failed with unintended results. But it’s also important to note that the cost of fuel on the global market is driving up food prices well beyond what many can afford throughout the world. We need to focus on alternative fuel technologies and make the use of crude a thing for the history books.

[Antipas]

No because Cuban Americans vote Republican

Would you normalize trade with Cuba?

[Ferd]

Would you normalize trade with Cuba?

dude, can you read? I said NO.

BECAUSE Cuban Americans vote republican and dont want it!

what part of that is difficult to understand?

[Ferd]

By your words you are known.



No. I’m addressing your crass and uncivil behavior. The subject will not get attention until you can discuss it beyond the Cro-Magnon approach to discourse you’re engaging in. You’re talking to brothers and sisters in the Lord. Sure, you may disagree with them politically on several levels. But you certainly should be intelligent enough to realize calling people “baby killers”, “communists”, “idiotic greenies”, isn’t a grownup or even a Christian way of discussing an issue. I know an Apostolic woman who is currently teaching in China. She is a strong advocate of fair trade and human rights. Not everyone believes exactly like you ferdie boy. And it only demonstrates your uncouth nature when you stoop below your Christian moorings to be so insulting.



Don’t be stupid. The numbers come from the Center for Children's Health and the Environment
Mount Sinai School of Medicine.



Keep Sis. Meeks (our sister in China) in prayer. That would be much more appreciated than your sarcasm.



Not everyone voted in favor of that measure, nor does everyone agree with the idea. You’re painting with too broad a brush ferdie boy.



We agree here. It’s obvious that we should invest in more efficient fuel technologies. And those who are advocates of fair trade are speaking out together with conservatives that the ethanol effort failed with unintended results. But it’s also important to note that the cost of fuel on the global market is driving up food prices well beyond what many can afford throughout the world. We need to focus on alternative fuel technologies and make the use of crude a thing for the history books.


You and Chris, know someone that fits every single scenario. its amazing.

[DividedThigh]

amazing resemblance huh, lol,dt

[Cindy]

By your words you are known.



No. I’m addressing your crass and uncivil behavior. The subject will not get attention until you can discuss it beyond the Cro-Magnon approach to discourse you’re engaging in. You’re talking to brothers and sisters in the Lord. Sure, you may disagree with them politically on several levels. But you certainly should be intelligent enough to realize calling people “baby killers”, “communists”, “idiotic greenies”, isn’t a grownup or even a Christian way of discussing an issue. I know an Apostolic woman who is currently teaching in China. She is a strong advocate of fair trade and human rights. Not everyone believes exactly like you ferdie boy. And it only demonstrates your uncouth nature when you stoop below your Christian moorings to be so insulting.



Don’t be stupid. The numbers come from the Center for Children's Health and the Environment
Mount Sinai School of Medicine.



Keep Sis. Meeks (our sister in China) in prayer. That would be much more appreciated than your sarcasm.



Not everyone voted in favor of that measure, nor does everyone agree with the idea. You’re painting with too broad a brush ferdie boy.



We agree here. It’s obvious that we should invest in more efficient fuel technologies. And those who are advocates of fair trade are speaking out together with conservatives that the ethanol effort failed with unintended results. But it’s also important to note that the cost of fuel on the global market is driving up food prices well beyond what many can afford throughout the world. We need to focus on alternative fuel technologies and make the use of crude a thing for the history books.

What's up with the name calling? Y'all be nice.

[Cindy]

That is untrue. There are many Democrats, mainly Catholics, who do not support abortion. There are even dedicated Pro-Life Democrats with Pro-Life voting records. Why lie like this? There are even devout Apostolics who vote Democratic on occasion. Don’t you see how you’re beginning to sound like nothing but a pawn of right wing politics?



Fair trade advocates have denounced China’s one child policy since 1993 ferdie boy. Forcing a woman to have an abortion is a violation of human rights worse than rape.



As an advocate of fair trade I have to say that’s very upsetting. I disagree, I don’t like abortion. I’m crying out against China’s policy, you’re defending our policies that sanction their forced abortion policy. I think YOU like abortion…if you can save a dollar at your local Wal-Mart.



Evidently you’re incapable of being civil. You don’t have to join their cause, but you can acknowledge that some of us are working to make changes from the other side are brothers and sisters entitled to some respect instead of calling us baby killers and the like.



If we’re not careful? China needs to be careful.

I was reflecting on a post above. Do you think the earthquake may have been a judgment from God seeing that it’s generated a groundswell of outcry against their one child policy?


Whoa, whoa, good grief. BE NICE. Stop with the name calling please.

[Ferd]

What's up with the name calling? Y'all be nice.

lets be clear about this.

i have called "The democrat wing of the democrat party" baby killers.
I have called the "greens" greenick idiots.
I have called marxists commies
i have called Fairtraders democrats, greenicks and marxists.

Antipas called me Cro-Magnon.

there is a difference.

PS, i am actaully right in my assessment.

[DividedThigh]

lets be clear about this.

i have called "The democrat wing of the democrat party" baby killers.
I have called the "greens" greenick idiots.
I have called marxists commies
i have called Fairtraders democrats, greenicks and marxists.

Antipas called me Cro-Magnon.

there is a difference.

PS, i am actaully right in my assessment.

oh and to add to that, mr anti called me a cray baby, he needs a bop on the head, i smell a rat, lol,dt

[Cindy]

I understand, but that STOP sign might just come up in here. Some heads might get bopped all right. That cop has a big stick ya know.

[Cindy]

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f383/ladyCntexas/94-1.gif

[DividedThigh]

you are great cindy, go girl, lol,dt

[Ferd]

I will be nice so long as everyone understands that the democrat wing of the democrat party are a bunch of baby killers.

[Digging4Truth]

Boycotts won’t work. It might relieve one’s individual conscience but that’s about it.

Politically all one can do is support elected officials who push for Fair Trade as opposed to Free Trade.

As I see it, the issue becomes:

Fair Trade vs. Free Trade

Boycotts, as a method, are very powerful and can crippled a company or a country quickly.

The reason people feel that boycotts don't work is because there is an absence of the resolve necessary on the part of the boycotters to go through with.

When it is put into action it works. The problem is the severe lack of "want to".

Oil companies and oil nations control us because we lack the resolve to create our financial destinies anymore.

The same goes for these issues.

[Antipas]

dude, can you read? I said NO.

BECAUSE Cuban Americans vote republican and dont want it!

what part of that is difficult to understand?

Your previous answer made me think you felt that way just because you wanted to secure a voting block. lol

This answers the question well. I can understand the idea of standing by constituents.

[Antipas]

You and Chris, know someone that fits every single scenario. its amazing.

You really should get out more.

[Ferd]

The reality is that China is a very complicated place.

Before Nixon began the process of opening China to trade, the place was a killing field. Millions died because the government wanted to “cull” the population. They simply enforced laws that led to massive starvation. Some estimates suggest that Mao was responsible for somewhere between 40M and 80M people.

Even after Nixon, deaths due to government policy continued. Should we have done nothing? Invaded? Opened them to trade in the hopes that prosperity would bring change? Well, Nixon’s approach seems to have led to serious change in China.

Clearly there are serious and severe human rights abuses still taking place in China both in forced abortions and in a systematic almost genocidal approach to the Tibet issue.

China is NOT a free place and is still quite abusive. But the question remains, do we invade? Do we step away from them and not trade, not have engagement unless they change which is the fair trade approach, or do we continue to pressure and trade and try to help them see who China benefits from a more open society?

We also have to approach China with an understanding of the Chinese reality. China is a complex culture with a serious population problem. With over a billion in population, only 14% of China’s land can be used for agriculture! Not being extremely vigilant regarding population will lead to massive starvation where hundreds of millions could die.

The argument here that fair trade should be used to force China away from the one baby/forced abortion policy is simply wrong. It takes nothing into account in dealing with the reality of what China is.

China also can field a two hundred million man army. Actually its age group fit for military service of both men and women exceeds a half billon. China’s technology is developing at a rapid pace.

China, being a complex society doesn’t really take well to being told how to behave. Their government while not our enemy is certainly not our ally, and any attempt by the west to push them too hard as fair traders want, is likely to push them away from us and into alliances with our mortal enemies.

The solution seems to me to be to expand trade, work to pressure where we can and seek to empower the people by providing economic prosperity via trade. It is a free trade solution with strings. It is also the course America has taken consistently since the 1970’s it seems to be working. I don’t think the impatience being offered by “fair traders” should force us from a course that has paid dividends in fewer Chinese people being murdered by their government in their tortured history.


How is that for a reasonable answer?

[Antipas]

lets be clear about this.

i have called "The democrat wing of the democrat party" baby killers.
I have called the "greens" greenick idiots.
I have called marxists commies
i have called Fairtraders democrats, greenicks and marxists.

Antipas called me Cro-Magnon.

there is a difference.

PS, i am actaully right in my assessment.

The insinuation is that anyone who doesn't vote Republican is affiliating with baby killers etc. You know that's not true. There are good and bad people in both parties.

Here's an interesting point on the "baby killers" pejoritive. No Democrat has ever forced a woman to have an abortion. China does. Most Democrats on the left only advocate for individual choice. I'd say that the Free Trade wing of the Republican Party has ignored the murder of over 400 million babies to protect their profits. Big difference.

[TRFrance]

I had mentioned this some time back and was denounced. Here's an interesting article:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=62656

Are we feeding a beast that forces abortion (61 babies per hour) with our free trade policies?
Well, lets check out the logic here: Should we blame the Marines for killing JFK... since that's where Lee Harvey Osward learned how to be a sharpshooter? I think we'd all say of course not... Nobody forced Oswald to do what he did, so he's to be held responsible for his own decisions and actions.

Same with the China argument.
Wrongdoing is wrongdoing. If they're forcing people to have abortions, that is their decision, not something anyone is forcing them to do. Using the "shared-blame" line of thinking, I should share some of the blame, since the socks I'm wearing were made in China! Very weak. Not buying it.

[Antipas]

The reality is that China is a very complicated place.

Before Nixon began the process of opening China to trade, the place was a killing field. Millions died because the government wanted to “cull” the population. They simply enforced laws that led to massive starvation. Some estimates suggest that Mao was responsible for somewhere between 40M and 80M people.

Even after Nixon, deaths due to government policy continued. Should we have done nothing? Invaded? Opened them to trade in the hopes that prosperity would bring change? Well, Nixon’s approach seems to have led to serious change in China.

Clearly there are serious and severe human rights abuses still taking place in China both in forced abortions and in a systematic almost genocidal approach to the Tibet issue.

China is NOT a free place and is still quite abusive. But the question remains, do we invade? Do we step away from them and not trade, not have engagement unless they change which is the fair trade approach, or do we continue to pressure and trade and try to help them see who China benefits from a more open society?

We also have to approach China with an understanding of the Chinese reality. China is a complex culture with a serious population problem. With over a billion in population, only 14% of China’s land can be used for agriculture! Not being extremely vigilant regarding population will lead to massive starvation where hundreds of millions could die.

The argument here that fair trade should be used to force China away from the one baby/forced abortion policy is simply wrong. It takes nothing into account in dealing with the reality of what China is.

China also can field a two hundred million man army. Actually its age group fit for military service of both men and women exceeds a half billon. China’s technology is developing at a rapid pace.

China, being a complex society doesn’t really take well to being told how to behave. Their government while not our enemy is certainly not our ally, and any attempt by the west to push them too hard as fair traders want, is likely to push them away from us and into alliances with our mortal enemies.

The solution seems to me to be to expand trade, work to pressure where we can and seek to empower the people by providing economic prosperity via trade. It is a free trade solution with strings. It is also the course America has taken consistently since the 1970’s it seems to be working. I don’t think the impatience being offered by “fair traders” should force us from a course that has paid dividends in fewer Chinese people being murdered by their government in their tortured history.


How is that for a reasonable answer?

Summary: Ferd excuses China's police of forced abortion.

Fair Trade policies aimed at applying significant pressure in specific areas of the Chinese economy as incentive to expand human rights is far better than the ideas of invasion or ignoring the horror, and blessing it for the sake of our profit.

[Ferd]

The insinuation is that anyone who doesn't vote Republican is affiliating with baby killers etc. You know that's not true. There are good and bad people in both parties.

Here's an interesting point on the "baby killers" pejoritive. No Democrat has ever forced a woman to have an abortion. China does. Most Democrats on the left only advocate for individual choice. I'd say that the Free Trade wing of the Republican Party has ignored the murder of over 400 million babies to protect their profits. Big difference.

No the insinuation is that the democrat wing of the democrat party (this is a reference to Howard Dean speaking about the liberals that have all the power in the party) are baby killers.


you guys that are pro-life but vote democrat arnt baby killers. you are just allied with them. You guys are kind of playing the Neville Chamberlain roll...

[Antipas]

Well, lets check out the logic here: Should we blame the Marines for killing JFK... since that's where Lee Harvey Osward learned how to be a sharpshooter? I think we'd all say of course not... Nobody forced Oswald to do what he did, so he's to be held responsible for his own decisions and actions.

Same with the China argument.
Wrongdoing is wrongdoing. If they're forcing people to have abortions, that is their decision, not something anyone is forcing them to do. Using the "shared-blame" line of thinking, I should share some of the blame, since the socks I'm wearing were made in China! Very weak. Not buying it.

I see it like advocating for free and open trade with Nazi Germany while the gas chambers and ovens are in use.

In China women who have already had one child are arrested and forced to take a pill or forcefully injected and issued a forced abortion often screaming and sobbing. These women have to watch as their bodies discharge the dead child. Many are Christian who refused elective abortion. This is worse than rape rooms in Iraq. Not to mention abuse regarding religious liberty, worker safety, political speech, and art.

Fair Trade supporters see this as a fundamental violation of human rights. Fair Trade policies would require China to make progress in the area of human rights to maintain trade status.

[Antipas]

No the insinuation is that the democrat wing of the democrat party (this is a reference to Howard Dean speaking about the liberals that have all the power in the party) are baby killers.


you guys that are pro-life but vote democrat arnt baby killers. you are just allied with them. You guys are kind of playing the Neville Chamberlain roll...

Apparently you've not be paying attention to the growing number of Democrats with prolife records and running for offices. Some are even running to the right of their Republican opponents.

[BrotherEastman]

LOL! This argument is funny. I have an idea, why don't we invade China (which has a population of more than a billion) and teach them a lesson!

[Ferd]

Anyone who stands for human rights is a looser?

no just you.

[Grasshopper]

LOL! This argument is funny. I have an idea, why don't we invade China (which has a population of more than a billion) and teach them a lesson!

Dude invading China isn't the answer man.

Those who have survived this and come here are highly critical of our free trade with China.

[BrotherEastman]

Dude invading China isn't the answer man.

Those who have survived this and come here are highly critical of our free trade with China.
Exactly! I just thought that I would add my two cents!

[Rico]

Well, lets check out the logic here: Should we blame the Marines for killing JFK... since that's where Lee Harvey Osward learned how to be a sharpshooter? I think we'd all say of course not... Nobody forced Oswald to do what he did, so he's to be held responsible for his own decisions and actions.

Same with the China argument.
Wrongdoing is wrongdoing. If they're forcing people to have abortions, that is their decision, not something anyone is forcing them to do. Using the "shared-blame" line of thinking, I should share some of the blame, since the socks I'm wearing were made in China! Very weak. Not buying it.

Oswald did not kill JFK!! It was the limo driver!

[Ferd]

Summary: Ferd excuses China's police of forced abortion.

Fair Trade policies aimed at applying significant pressure in specific areas of the Chinese economy as incentive to expand human rights is far better than the ideas of invasion or ignoring the horror, and blessing it for the sake of our profit.

i got an infraction for calling you what you are.

they deleted my comment too.


therefore i am forced to give a more fleshed out verison.

this comment here is a sick and twisted distortion of what I said.



and I stand by the deleted statement.

[TRFrance]

Hmmm...so I expect some of you to stop shopping at Walmart then!

And also go thru your closet.... and if you find anything that says "Made In China"... burn it!!
:O)


Besides, we all know Walmart is evil!
:O)

[HeavenlyOne]

Oswald did not kill JFK!! It was the limo driver!

He killed the limo driver? :oops:hmmm:shhh

[BrotherEastman]

i got an infraction for calling you what you are.

they deleted my comment too.


therefore i am forced to give a more fleshed out verison.

this comment here is a sick and twisted distortion of what I said.



and I stand by the deleted statement.
Btw, I agree with your deleted statement. LOL!

[Grasshopper]

Hmmm...so I expect some of you to stop shopping at Walmart then!

And also go thru your closet.... and if you find anything that says "Made In China"... burn it!!
:O)


Besides, we all know Walmart is evil!
:O)

The point is simple, our entire political system is desperately wicked and blood is on all hands. Unless we as Christians repent of our habit of excusing the evils of our preferred party, we're all going to be subject to God's judgment. What I see is that Christians on the left are desperately fighting to move the Democratic party toward a life ethic that at the very least strives to reduce the abortion rates. Yet they are categorically labeled as "baby killers" by Christian brothers on the right. While at the same time those calling them "baby killers" on the right are fundamentally supportive of a trade policy that undermines human rights at home and abroad. This is best exemplified in the wholesale adoration of America's free trade policies with China. China is one of the greatest human rights abusers on the planet. And in China over 400 million babies have been murdered after their mothers were forced to abort at gun point.

If one is so pro-life they would call a blood bought brother or sister a "baby killer" for being involved in Democratic politics while trying to bring a life ethic to the Democrats, one would expect them to be equally, if not more, appauled at America's free trade policy with the war mongering, baby killing, human rights violating, worker exploiting, police state enforcing, speech silencing nation of China.

Christians in Democratic politics are trying to bring the Democratic Party to a more comprehensive life ethic, Christians in the Republican Party appear to be drinking the free market coolaide...while women are forced to abort. At least, while the Democrats favor individual choice in regards to abortion, the Democrats stand whole heartedly against forced abortion policies of China and feel we should tighten up our trade policies to reflect the value we place on human rights.

I think it was mentioned and should be noted, a large number of women forced to abort are forced to abort because they are Christian women electing not to have an abortion.

[Rico]

The point is simple, our entire political system is desperately wicked and blood is on all hands. Unless we as Christians repent of our habit of excusing the evils of our preferred party, we're all going to be subject to God's judgment. What I see is that Christians on the left are desperately fighting to move the Democratic party toward a life ethic that at the very least strives to reduce the abortion rates. Yet they are categorically labeled as "baby killers" by Christian brothers on the right. While at the same time those calling them "baby killers" on the right are fundamentally supportive of a trade policy that undermines human rights at home and abroad. This is best exemplified in the wholesale adoration of America's free trade policies with China. China is one of the greatest human rights abusers on the planet. And in China over 400 million babies have been murdered after their mothers were forced to abort at gun point.

If one is so pro-life they would call a blood bought brother or sister a "baby killer" for being involved in Democratic politics while trying to bring a life ethic to the Democrats, one would expect them to be equally, if not more, appauled at America's free trade policy with the war mongering, baby killing, human rights violating, worker exploiting, police state enforcing, speech silencing nation of China.

Christians in Democratic politics are trying to bring the Democratic Party to a more comprehensive life ethic, Christians in the Republican Party appear to be drinking the free market coolaide...while women are forced to abort. At least, while the Democrats favor individual choice in regards to abortion, the Democrats stand whole heartedly against forced abortion policies of China and feel we should tighten up our trade policies to reflect the value we place on human rights.

I think it was mentioned and should be noted, a large number of women forced to abort are forced to abort because they are Christian women electing not to have an abortion.

Chris, have you completely lost your mind? The political parties in this country weren't founded by, nor run by Christians. In fact, if the Christians weren't voters, neither party would pay us any mind whatsoever. The Republican and Democratic parties don't give a rat's rotten behind about righteousness, God's ways, or anything else other than POWER and MONEY. Don't kid yourself into thinking they're interested in representing God.

Also, we are not commanded in scripture to go about establishing countries, their laws, their morals, their beliefs, or their political structure. As Christians, we are commanded to save people from a lost and dying world. I think it's great that we have the right to vote in this country, but God didn't save me to make sure I joined the right political party in America.

[Cindy]

Chris, have you completely lost your mind? The political parties in this country weren't founded by, nor run by Christians. In fact, if the Christians weren't voters, neither party would pay us any mind whatsoever. The Republican and Democratic parties don't give a rat's rotten behind about righteousness, God's ways, or anything else other than POWER and MONEY. Don't kid yourself into thinking they're interested in representing God.

Also, we are not commanded in scripture to go about establishing countries, their laws, their morals, their beliefs, or their political structure. As Christians, we are commanded to save people from a lost and dying world. I think it's great that we have the right to vote in this country, but God didn't save me to make sure I joined the right political party in America.

Tell It!!!!!

[Encryptus]

"Antipas", your "buddy" Christopher Hall (wink, wink) the person who started this thread had this to say in another thread about gay marriage ban: Mainly that one should NOT be involved in the type of activism which you are proposing.

I feel very much the same. I believe our focus should be how we are to live as Christians…not so much controlling what others do. Why? Because no matter how hard we try we will never be able to control what others do or how others want to live. I believe our quiet, humble, clean living, will attract more people than loud rancor and public diatribe ever will. Sometimes our political crusades are distractions even if we mean well.



Just wondering why you guys think we should be silent and inactive about gay marriage in the US of A and try to force China to changes it policies?

[TRFrance]

The point is simple, our entire political system is desperately wicked and blood is on all hands. Unless we as Christians repent of our habit of excusing the evils of our preferred party, we're all going to be subject to God's judgment...
Chris, have you completely lost your mind? The political parties in this country weren't founded by, nor run by Christians...
(?)
"Chris"?
Is Grasshopper the same as Chris Hall?
Or is this a different Chris ?

[TRFrance]

I see it like advocating for free and open trade with Nazi Germany while the gas chambers and ovens are in use.

In China women who have already had one child are arrested and forced to take a pill or forcefully injected and issued a forced abortion often screaming and sobbing. These women have to watch as their bodies discharge the dead child. Many are Christian who refused elective abortion. This is worse than rape rooms in Iraq. Not to mention abuse regarding religious liberty, worker safety, political speech, and art.

Fair Trade supporters see this as a fundamental violation of human rights. Fair Trade policies would require China to make progress in the area of human rights to maintain trade status.

Yup. Sounds good... but some of us know that in the real world, it's simply not gonna happen.
The US is too economically beholden to China to ever put that kind of pressure on them.

[Grasshopper]

Chris, have you completely lost your mind? The political parties in this country weren't founded by, nor run by Christians. In fact, if the Christians weren't voters, neither party would pay us any mind whatsoever. The Republican and Democratic parties don't give a rat's rotten behind about righteousness, God's ways, or anything else other than POWER and MONEY. Don't kid yourself into thinking they're interested in representing God.

Also, we are not commanded in scripture to go about establishing countries, their laws, their morals, their beliefs, or their political structure. As Christians, we are commanded to save people from a lost and dying world. I think it's great that we have the right to vote in this country, but God didn't save me to make sure I joined the right political party in America.

My primary point is that we should pray right now, especially for China. God put this on my mind weeks ago, way back. You can ask my wife, I was tearing up and trying not to cry at Wal-Mart. I told my wife to pray for China and that God was fed up...back in April. We may not be able to change things, but we can pray that God give mercy. And if we fail to pray...we're even more liable for our share in the tragedy.

[Ferd]

(?)
"Chris"?
Is Grasshopper the same as Chris Hall?
Or is this a different Chris ?

LOL! you need to read several of the various posters in this thread that seem to support Antipas. it sure has the feel of a single user....

[DividedThigh]

i smell chris hall, again, i think he has mpd, lol,dt

[Ferd]

My primary point is that we should pray right now, especially for China. God put this on my mind weeks ago, way back. You can ask my wife, I was tearing up and trying not to cry at Wal-Mart. I told my wife to pray for China and that God was fed up...back in April. We may not be able to change things, but we can pray that God give mercy. And if we fail to pray...we're even more liable for our share in the tragedy.

Chris, if you primary point is that we should pray for China, then we agree.

i also (as I pointed out in a long post) believe we should pressure the chinese gov. where we can, when we can.

i also think in the upcoming olympics, we should seriously consider boycotting the opening ceremonies.

I do not think "Fair Trade" is actually fair. I oppose those who have come up with the concept because of what they are.

that doesnt mean free trade with china should have no strings. Currently there are "strings" there have always been "strings" and the US governemnts policy going back to Nixon has always been about improving things in China in a non-confrontational manner.