Do You Believe in Predetermination?

[Nahum]

Do you agree with the following statement?

It is almost universally admitted that God determines when, where, and under what circumstances, each individual of our race shall be born, live, and die, whether it shall be male or female, white or black, wise or foolish. God is no less sovereign in the distribution of His favors. He does what He will with His own. To some He gives riches, to others honor, to others health, to others certain talents for music, oratory, art, finance, statesmanship, etc. Others are poor, unknown, born in dishonor, the victims of disease, and live lives of wretchedness. Some are placed in Christian lands where they receive all the benefits of the Gospel; others live and die in the darkness of heathenism. Some are brought through faith unto salvation; others are left to perish in unbelief.

[seguidordejesus]

Yes, except for the last two sentences. I think that the last two sentences are true, but would clarify that God does not say "this one shall be saved, this one, no"....they all have an opportunity (which is why we need missionaries!)

[Pressing-On]

Why aren't you calling it - Predestination?

[Nahum]

Yes, except for the last two sentences. I think that the last two sentences are true, but would clarify that God does not say "this one shall be saved, this one, no"....they all have an opportunity (which is why we need missionaries!)

How so, when its obvious some die without ever hearing the Gospel?

Isn't their eternal destiny sealed by the darkness in which they are born?

[seguidordejesus]

How so, when its obvious some die without ever hearing the Gospel?

Isn't their eternal destiny sealed by the darkness in which they are born?

It is sealed by the darkness, but not by God. They have the opportunity to come "into his marvelous light". Unfortunately, that chance never comes. These comments of mine are not original, I'm sure.

[seguidordejesus]

Clarification - that chance "sometimes" doesn't come.

[mizpeh]

How so, when its obvious some die without ever hearing the Gospel?

Isn't their eternal destiny sealed by the darkness in which they are born?

If someone is seeking after God, not so much Jesus, but God, the maker of heaven and earth, I believe God will go to great lengths to bring his word to that person. Acts 8:26-40

Is there any unrighteousness with God? Romans 9 God forbid!

[Nahum]

Predestination refers to a divine order that something must come to pass. Predetermination refers to the settling of events before they happen, planning a specific outcome.

Predetermination is practiced by man, not a deity. So through the choices of ancestors, a person could be born in total spiritual darkness, with no hope of finding the Truth.

[RevDWW]

Rom 2:11 - 16 (KJV)
11For there is no respect of persons with God.
12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

[Nahum]

What do we do with this passage?


30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Acts 17:30-31)

[Pressing-On]

Predestination refers to a divine order that something must come to pass. Predetermination refers to the settling of events before they happen, planning a specific outcome.

Predetermination is practiced by man, not a deity. So through the choices of ancestors, a person could be born in total spiritual darkness, with no hope of finding the Truth.
Thank you. I thought your thread was pertaining to God.

[Nahum]

Thank you. I thought your thread was pertaining to God.

The issue can get quite confusing.

Is it predestined that a person will be born in total spiritual darkness?

[Pressing-On]

The issue can get quite confusing.

Is it predestined that a person will be born in total spiritual darkness?
Would you say that is on the same lines as a generational curse?

[crakjak]

Yes, except for the last two sentences. I think that the last two sentences are true, but would clarify that God does not say "this one shall be saved, this one, no"....they all have an opportunity (which is why we need missionaries!)

Question? If God determines all the things that were listed before the last two sentences (and He does), don't you think those things influence the last two sentences? (and it does)

If so you must believe in Calvinism or in Universalism. Either God determines some to life and some to destruction or He will eventually bring every individual to full disclosure of His truth of which they cannot resist His love. I simply believe the latter.

[stmatthew]

No, I do not believe this is true.

I believe that God has set "Laws" in motion that to this day continue to achieve the results God desired. In example, I believe God set a Law in motion that every time a husband and wife comes together, and knows each other, that there is a chance of conception. But I do not believe God has to come down ever time conception does occur and create the life of the newly conceived. His Laws are the governing force that makes it so.

I do not believe some are "born to win", and some are "born to loose". I believe God has given the earth to us, and our earthly lives are what we make of them. This is the reason some seem to be able to rise out of obscurity. If you look at their live, they made a decision to change their current status, and push beyond the norm.

I believe this principle applies as well in the Spiritual realm. We have not because we ask not. If we truly want a powerful Holy Ghost revival, it is available to use. We can have everything that the bible declares we can have. IF we want it enough.

Now, having said that, I DO believe there are seasons that God has determined to do certain things. I believe Pentecost was a predetermined event. It was a specific event that would have to occur no matter what. The Death of Christ was a predetermined event. The resurrection. But for the most part, I believe that we have choice to be without, or achieve. It is within our hands.

JMHO

[Nahum]

Would you say that is on the same lines as a generational curse?

Sort of.

I do believe that we are all born with certain genetic predispositions. I also believe we are born into certain advantages and disadvantages. These could be physical, emotional, familial and financial.

The question remains, is any of this God's doing?

[Ron]

Somehow, I knew you were going to ask this question.:D




Seriously, the Church is predestined. Mankind has the option by the choices we make/don't make in either responding to the Gospel or the lack of sharing of the Gospel to the lost that determines individual destinies.

[Pressing-On]

Sort of.

I do believe that we are all born with certain genetic predispositions. I also believe we are born into certain advantages and disadvantages. These could be physical, emotional, familial and financial.

The question remains, is any of this God's doing?
I think we make our own choices.

[Ron]

I remember when God began to deal with me in thinking of coming to Church.
I woke up one Sunday morning and I had a feeling that if I didn't go to Church that Morning I was never going to go.

I now know that God was saying Come now!

Thank God I did.

[Nahum]

No, I do not believe this is true.

I believe that God has set "Laws" in motion that to this day continue to achieve the results God desired. In example, I believe God set a Law in motion that every time a husband and wife comes together, and knows each other, that there is a chance of conception. But I do not believe God has to come down ever time conception does occur and create the life of the newly conceived. His Laws are the governing force that makes it so.

I do not believe some are "born to win", and some are "born to loose". I believe God has given the earth to us, and our earthly lives are what we make of them. This is the reason some seem to be able to rise out of obscurity. If you look at their live, they made a decision to change their current status, and push beyond the norm.

I believe this principle applies as well in the Spiritual realm. We have not because we ask not. If we truly want a powerful Holy Ghost revival, it is available to use. We can have everything that the bible declares we can have. IF we want it enough.

Now, having said that, I DO believe there are seasons that God has determined to do certain things. I believe Pentecost was a predetermined event. It was a specific event that would have to occur no matter what. The Death of Christ was a predetermined event. The resurrection. But for the most part, I believe that we have choice to be without, or achieve. It is within our hands.

JMHO

What about those who are born blind, lame, deaf, dumb? What about babies born to mothers that are hooked on crack?

Is this God's design?

Is this the absolute or permissive will or God?

[Pressing-On]

What about those who are born blind, lame, deaf, dumb? What about babies born to mothers that are hooked on crack?

Is this God's design?

Is this the absolute or permissive will or God?
Wouldn't that fall into the category of "reaping and sowing"? - the crack babies.

[Neck]

Do you agree with the following statement?

No here is the answer. When you are walking in the protection of salvation and repentance then you have a destination of heaven.

If you then willfully sin after receiving the promise and die in your sins, then hell is your home.

Everything in between is the hope of your calling.

With the statements assigned above where would the free will to be saved.

Why not just preach, Jonathan Edwards..."Sinners in the hands of an angry God"!

Some are predestined to be saved some lost.

It is known some will be saved and some lost......

That determination is made at the end of one's life not at the beginning of one's life.

:tiphat

[Ron]

What about those who are born blind, lame, deaf, dumb? What about babies born to mothers that are hooked on crack?

Is this God's design?

Is this the absolute or permissive will or God?

We all make choices.
We as Christians can influence through prayer the course of human lives, and even history itself with some limitations.
I think this is where prayer meets divine will that intersects human will that can alter destiny.

[Nahum]

Wouldn't that fall into the category of "reaping and sowing"? - the crack babies.

In a sense, but how is the mother's sin the babys fault?

The baby is born into a disadvantage.

Did God cause this, or did he just allow it?

[Ron]

In a sense, but how is the mother's sin the babys fault?

The baby is born into a disadvantage.

Did God cause this, or did he just allow it?


All sin affects someone.

[Nahum]

No here is the answer. When you are walking in the protection of salvation and repentance then you have a destination of heaven.

If you then willfully sin after receiving the promise and die in your sins, then hell is your home.

Everything in between is the hope of your calling.

With the statements assigned above where would the free will to be saved.

Why not just preach, Jonathan Edwards..."Sinners in the hands of an angry God"!

Some are predestined to be saved some lost.

It is known some will be saved and some lost......

That determination is made at the end of one's life not at the beginning of one's life.

:tiphat

Beautiful post, Brother!

This is a gem. :tiphat

[Pressing-On]

In a sense, but how is the mother's sin the babys fault?

The baby is born into a disadvantage.

Did God cause this, or did he just allow it?
The baby is part of her body and her body has been contaminated by drugs. Many things that happen are simply logic. They don't go much beyond that, IMO.

[philjones]

What about those who are born blind, lame, deaf, dumb? What about babies born to mothers that are hooked on crack?

Is this God's design?

Is this the absolute or permissive will or God?

There is no such thing as the "permissive will" of God. It is either His will or it isn't.

Many of the things you described are NOT the will of God but they are the natural results of sin and life. I believe that in His sovereignty, God allows life to happen with all of the unfortunate eventualities brought about by sin. These events are allowed to occur in the lives of both the just and the unjust. They are for the season of life and do not transfer to eternity.

As for the deeper question, I feel that man's actions absolutely can predetermine circumstances but not necessarily outcomes. You probably should get the answer to this question from someone much wiser than I.:tiphat

[Nahum]

There is no such thing as the "permissive will" of God. It is either His will or it isn't.

Many of the things you described are NOT the will of God but they are the natural results of sin and life. I believe that in His sovereignty, God allows life to happen with all of the unfortunate eventualities brought about by sin. These events are allowed to occur in the lives of both the just and the unjust. They are for the season of life and do not transfer to eternity.

As for the deeper question, I feel that man's actions absolutely can predetermine circumstances but not necessarily outcomes. You probably should get the answer to this question from someone much wiser than I.:tiphat

You do not believe in the permissive will of God?

If there is no permissive will, couldn't we say that God creates evil and makes people sin? He makes the devil tempt, murderers murder, and so on?

Rhetorical question, as I know you don't believe that my friend! :tiphat

[stmatthew]

What about those who are born blind, lame, deaf, dumb? What about babies born to mothers that are hooked on crack?

Is this God's design?

Is this the absolute or permissive will or God?


The Law set in motion was that all mankind would be blanketed because of Adams transgression. Mankind has been reaping of that seed, and will continue to reap that seed, until we gain immortality.

Was this Gods design? I really cannot say. We know that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth, so God knew that a kinsman redeemer would be needed.

To me, the absolute will of God is that we live in abundant life. Satan comes to steal, kill, and destroy, but I come that you might have life, and that more abundant. Again, we choose our lives.

As the body of Christ, we are called to go and present the healing power of Christ to these "blind, lame, deaf, and dumb", and bring deliverance to those held in captivity to drugs and habits.

[Nahum]

The Law set in motion was that all mankind would be blanketed because of Adams transgression. Mankind has been reaping of that seed, and will continue to reap that seed, until we gain immortality.

Was this Gods design? I really cannot say. We know that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth, so God knew that a kinsman redeemer would be needed.

To me, the absolute will of God is that we live in abundant life. Satan comes to steal, kill, and destroy, but I come that you might have life, and that more abundant. Again, we choose our lives.

As the body of Christ, we are called to go and present the healing power of Christ to these "blind, lame, deaf, and dumb", and bring deliverance to those held in captivity to drugs and habits.

Very good post.

I agree.

[Neck]

Beautiful post, Brother!

This is a gem. :tiphat

Thanks Pastor...

When I meet the Lord Jesus in Glory at the marriage supper.

I will ask him.

"So you choose before the Foundation of the World to Die on the Cross?"

You knew you could fool the Devil your fallen companion.

You then allow some of our human sons and daughters to be born predestined to be lost to this hell.

You allow us to understand and call Abortion of a Human life ...Murder.

Yet we are to believe fear not him that killeth the body but he that killeth the soul....

What are we to think of this "Soul Abortion".

Lets call it what it is saints.

Predestination and you can say the quote came from, Nathan Eckstadt.

Predestination is "Soul Abortion".

That is simply not practiced by our Blood stained Lord Jesus Christ, God Almighty.

[stmatthew]

Thanks Pastor...

When I meet the Lord Jesus in Glory at the marriage supper.

I will ask him.

"So you choose before the Foundation of the World to Die on the Cross?"

You knew you could fool the Devil your fallen companion.

You then allow some of our human sons and daughters to be born predestined to be lost to this hell.

You allow us to understand and call Abortion of a Human life ...Murder.

Yet we are to believe fear not him that killeth the body but he that killeth the soul....

What are we to think of this "Soul Abortion".

Lets call it what it is saints.

Predestination and you can say the quote came from, Nathan Eckstadt.

Predestination is "Soul Abortion".

That is simply not practiced by our Blood stained Lord Jesus Christ, God Almighty.

Would you clarify the above for me? Are you stating that you believe that some are born predestined to be lost, and have no chance at salvation?

Just wanting to clarify what you mean, as I am not sure.

[philjones]

You do not believe in the permissive will of God?

If there is no permissive will, couldn't we say that God creates evil and makes people sin? He makes the devil tempt, murderers murder, and so on?

Rhetorical question, as I know you don't believe that my friend! :tiphat

There is a will of God.. it is perfect and established in eternity. Anything outside of this will is ... drum roll ... NOT the will of God, permissive or otherwise. It is therefore the will of man which is allowed but certainly not the will of God in any form!:tiphat

[Neck]

There is no such thing as the "permissive will" of God. It is either His will or it isn't.

Many of the things you described are NOT the will of God but they are the natural results of sin and life. I believe that in His sovereignty, God allows life to happen with all of the unfortunate eventualities brought about by sin. These events are allowed to occur in the lives of both the just and the unjust. They are for the season of life and do not transfer to eternity.

As for the deeper question, I feel that man's actions absolutely can predetermine circumstances but not necessarily outcomes. You probably should get the answer to this question from someone much wiser than I.:tiphat

How can that be?

When God gave us a choice by placing the 'Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden.

He had to have 2 plans.

One for not eating of the Tree and One for eating of the Tree.

Therefore, Or because of this...

If God had 2 directions from the beginning then he must have alternate plans depending on what we do in our lives.

One of his plans was that if Man were to eat of the Tree. I will go to earth, and walk the road to Calvary.

If man does not eat of the Tree. We will fellowship for Eternity...

Either of the 2 roads both put us back in one place with God.

Willfully being with him in Eternity.

[Neck]

Would you clarify the above for me? Are you stating that you believe that some are born predestined to be lost, and have no chance at salvation?

Just wanting to clarify what you mean, as I am not sure.

My clarification would be that if those who believe in predestination what would God say to this question in heaven???

Mine was a rhetorical question for those who believe in predestination to think about....

I do not believe in predestination....

[philjones]

How can that be?

When God gave us a choice by placing the 'Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden.

He had to have 2 plans.

One for not eating of the Tree and One for eating of the Tree.

Therefore, Or because of this...

If God had 2 directions from the beginning then he must have alternate plans depending on what we do in our lives.

One of his plans was that if Man were to eat of the Tree. I will go to earth, and walk the road to Calvary.

If man does not eat of the Tree. We will fellowship for Eternity...

Either of the 2 roads both put us back in one place with God.

Willfully being with him in Eternity.

God making provision for the possibility that man would violate his will does not make his will any less perfect nor does it make any thing else that happens his will. His will was for man not to sin. and to remain in relationship with Him eternally.. but because man violated His will He made provision that his will could still be fulfilled through the redemptive plan. Only One will!

[Neck]

God making provision for the possibility that man would violate his will does not make his will any less perfect nor does it make any thing else that happens his will. His will was for man not to sin. and to remain in relationship with Him eternally.. but because man violated His will He made provision that his will could still be fulfilled through the redemptive plan. Only One will!


His will is that none should perish.

But "All" should have everlasting life!

Yet some believe that God knows who before they even live will perish.

Why then worship God at all.

How do you know if you are lost or saved?

Do you have the ability to overcome the will of God.

If this "one will" you preach of can not be altered?

Are we not then fighting two battles one with Satan who wants to destroy our soul and God who already knows the battle is lost???

That almost seems like some Christians did not get enough Apple at the Tree of Knowledge...

Go back and take another bite..

Nathan Eckstadt

[Steve Epley]

My feeble thoughts are as follows:
God is infinite and omniscience thus He knows the end from the beginning thus nothing catches Him by surprize. However He does not predetermine the choices we make He certainly knows what they will be but He does not make us choose the things we choose.
He died for all yet knowing all would not be saved. Thus His atttibute of mercy and grace overides what He knows. He convicts-invites those that He knows that they will not accept Him because He is a God full of mercy. God NEVER will overide the freewill of man who chooses not to serve Him. Our service to Him must come from a heart freely given to Him.

[philjones]

His will is that none should perish.

Bit "All" should have everlasting life!

Yet some believe that God knows who before they even life will perish.

Why then worship God at all.

How do you know if you are lost or saved?

Do you have the ability to overcome the will of God.

If this "one will" you preach of can not be altered?

Are we not fighting two battles one with Satan who wants to destroy our soul and God who already knows the battle is lost???

That almost seems like some Christians did not get enough Apple at the Tree of Knowledge...

Go back and take another bite..

Nathan Eckstadt

By the presumptuous phraseology that you use, I perceive that you see yourself as some panacea of knowledge and all wise. Perhaps you should go to that tree you reference and gain the knowledge of simple reading comprehension!:winkgrin

You are correct that it is not His will that any should perish. That is why he made man and the garden for man. A place where that none should perish. Man violated that will by partaking of the forbidden and bringing to bear the fact of fatality and death to the earth. God's will did not change simply because man blew it. He simply made a provision for man that allowed man to be restored to that Will and have everlasting life. The will of God never changed!

[Neck]

By the presumptuous phraseology that you use, I perceive that you see yourself as some panacea of knowledge and all wise. Perhaps you should go to that tree you reference and gain the knowledge of simple reading comprehension!:winkgrin

You are correct that it is not His will that any should perish. That is why he made man and the garden for man. A place where that none should perish. Man violated that will by partaking of the forbidden and bringing to bear the fact of fatality and death to the earth. God's will did not change simply because man blew it. He simply made a provision for man that allowed man to be restored to that Will and have everlasting life. The will of God never changed!

Bro Jones, I respect you and your ministry. So I will bow out of this conversation...

God Bless...

[philjones]

Bro Jones, I respect you and your ministry. So I will bow out of this conversation...

God Bless...

Please don't do that... i put the smiley there to let you know that I was pulling your leg as well as letting you know that the phrase could be interpreted as a bit presumptuous.

Thank you for your respect... I respect you and your ministry as well.

I simply do not see that God has more than one will... that will is perfect! Unfortunately man is not perfect and violated and continues to violate that will. God may give permission or allow things to happen in violation of His singular will, but they are not His will!

[Neck]

Please don't do that... i put the smiley there to let you know that I was pulling your leg as well as letting you know that the phrase could be interpreted as a bit presumptuous.

Thank you for your respect... I respect you and your ministry as well.

I simply do not see that God has more than one will... that will is perfect! Unfortunately man is not perfect and violated and continues to violate that will. God may give permission or allow things to happen in violation of His singular will, but they are not His will!

Understood. One more question. DO you believe in "Once saved always saved?".

Sorry I missed the smiley face...

Nathan Eckstadt

:thumbsup

[philjones]

Understood. One more question. DO you believe in "Once saved always saved?".

Sorry I missed the smiley face...

Nathan Eckstadt

:thumbsup

No sir.. I am not Calvinist in any way.

We are quite close in what we believe, I am sure of it. It is simply my feeling that God's will is singular and unchanging. Men violate it and suffer the consequence of their violation but His will is still the same.

[Neck]

No sir.. I am not Calvinist in any way.

We are quite close in what we believe, I am sure of it. It is simply my feeling that God's will is singular and unchanging. Men violate it and suffer the consequence of their violation but His will is still the same.

Understood. I agree...

[philjones]

Understood. I agree...

BTW... I was cataloging my old tapes recently and I found that I have several of your Dad! I believe they are all related to eschatology as my Dad was very into the study of Daniel, Ezekiel and The Revelation of Jesus Christ.

I look forward to giving them a listen.

[Ron]

I am still trying to get The Rich man & Lazurus preaching.

[Neck]

BTW... I was cataloging my old tapes recently and I found that I have several of your Dad! I believe they are all related to eschatology as my Dad was very into the study of Daniel, Ezekiel and The Revelation of Jesus Christ.

I look forward to giving them a listen.

Wow. That is awesome. Could you share with me the names of the sermons via PM?

Once you have heard them.

If I do not have copies of the sermons.

Would you be willing to send them to me?

So I can have them converted to MP3?

If so I will make sure you get copies of any sermon that I already have converted.

Do you have highspeed internet?

If so I would love to email you "Eternity to Eternity".

Awesome sermon on the Oneness of God...

Thanks so much...


Nathan Eckstadt

:tiphat

[Neck]

I am still trying to get The Rich man & Lazurus preaching.

I need your address. I could not send it through. Your internet company blocks files that are over 10Meg. I have it on CD for you..

PM me your address...

Nathan Eckstadt

[crakjak]

Sort of.

I do believe that we are all born with certain genetic predispositions. I also believe we are born into certain advantages and disadvantages. These could be physical, emotional, familial and financial.

The question remains, is any of this God's doing?

It is all God's "doing", He said "I knew you before you were in your mother's womb". He knew and shaped us for His purpose "...some for honor and some for dishonor..., many interpret this to mean one's final end and that is error. This speak of one's earthly lives, God has all kinds of things to accomplish in the completion of His ultimate purpose of becoming "all in all", and He uses humans in tasks of honor and some of dishonor to bring about His intentions. God displays His love in mankind thru His severity and His mercy.

[crakjak]

You do not believe in the permissive will of God?

If there is no permissive will, couldn't we say that God creates evil and makes people sin? He makes the devil tempt, murderers murder, and so on?

Rhetorical question, as I know you don't believe that my friend! :tiphat

You are currently on the path that leads to understanding that God, not man is the FIRST CAUSE. Everything and I mean everthing flows from Him. The fall was not Plan B, it was God's plan A. God is the creator and He placed everthing that is, in His creation. All that has come to pass is by design, neither the wimpy efforts of Satan, nor the so call "freewill" of man will thwart His total victory. He will redeem the whole creation, sin and death will be destroyed, but GOD'S creation will be made whole. His whole creation will worship Him. "...every knee and every mouth..."

[Chan]

Do you agree with the following statement?You asked if I agree with the following:

"It is almost universally admitted that God determines when, where, and under what circumstances, each individual of our race shall be born, live, and die, whether it shall be male or female, white or black, wise or foolish. God is no less sovereign in the distribution of His favors. He does what He will with His own. To some He gives riches, to others honor, to others health, to others certain talents for music, oratory, art, finance, statesmanship, etc. Others are poor, unknown, born in dishonor, the victims of disease, and live lives of wretchedness. Some are placed in Christian lands where they receive all the benefits of the Gospel; others live and die in the darkness of heathenism. Some are brought through faith unto salvation; others are left to perish in unbelief."

I agree that God does indeed determine when, where, and under what circumstances each individual of our race shall be born, live, and die, whether it shall be male or female, white or black. Whether they will be wise or unwise, I disagree that God determines this because Proverbs encourages us to get wisdom. I agree that "God is no less sovereign in the distribution of His favors. He does what He will with His own."

As for "To some He gives riches, to others honor, to others health, to others certain talents for music, oratory, art, finance, statesmanship, etc. Others are poor, unknown, born in dishonor, the victims of disease, and live lives of wretchedness," I don't believe that it is God that does this - at least as far as giving some riches and honor and others poverty and dishonor. Jesus said that God allows rain to fall on the just and the unjust alike.

As for the last statement, "Some are placed in Christian lands where they receive all the benefits of the Gospel; others live and die in the darkness of heathenism. Some are brought through faith unto salvation; others are left to perish in unbelief," merely being in a "Christian" land (there really is no such thing, salvation is given to people, not nations) doesn't mean one is going to benefit from the gospel. Living in a land of "darkness and heathenism" doesn't mean someone isn't going to ever hear and obey the gospel. Now, it is true that God does bring some to faith unto salvation and that He leaves others to perish in unbelief; but notice the statement said "leaves others to perish." This simply means that God chooses not to draw them to Himself. It is an evil heart that interprets this as meaning God says to someone who wants to be saved, "No, I don't want you to be saved." No one, on his own, ever wants to be saved. If God did not interfere with the will of some people (causing them to want to be saved), no one would ever be saved.

[Chan]

The issue can get quite confusing.

Is it predestined that a person will be born in total spiritual darkness?Every human is born in spiritual darkness.

[Chan]

Question? If God determines all the things that were listed before the last two sentences (and He does), don't you think those things influence the last two sentences? (and it does)

If so you must believe in Calvinism or in Universalism. Either God determines some to life and some to destruction or He will eventually bring every individual to full disclosure of His truth of which they cannot resist His love. I simply believe the latter.No. Just because God predestines some to life does not mean He predestines everyone else to death. Everyone is BORN spiritually dead and will NEVER want God if left to ourselves. Everyone would remain spiritually dead if God did not interfere in the lives of some in order to bring them to life.

[Chan]

Thanks Pastor...

When I meet the Lord Jesus in Glory at the marriage supper.

I will ask him.

"So you choose before the Foundation of the World to Die on the Cross?"

You knew you could fool the Devil your fallen companion.

You then allow some of our human sons and daughters to be born predestined to be lost to this hell.

You allow us to understand and call Abortion of a Human life ...Murder.

Yet we are to believe fear not him that killeth the body but he that killeth the soul....

What are we to think of this "Soul Abortion".

Lets call it what it is saints.

Predestination and you can say the quote came from, Nathan Eckstadt.

Predestination is "Soul Abortion".

That is simply not practiced by our Blood stained Lord Jesus Christ, God Almighty.
PREDESTINATION IS NOT GOD PREDESTINING PEOPLE TO GO TO HELL!!!!

EVERYONE IS BORN GOING TO HELL AND, IF LEFT ALONE, THEY WILL SURELY GO THERE. THIS IS NOT BECAUSE OF GOD BUT BECAUSE OF ADAM'S SIN THAT IS IMPUTED TO HIS PROGENY.

PREDESTINATION IS GOD HAVING CHOSEN FROM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD TO INTERFERE WITH THE WILL OF SOME HUMANS IN ORDER TO SAVE THEM. GOD'S CHOICE TO LEAVE EVERYONE ELSE TO THEIR NATURAL STATE IS NOT GOD PREVENTING ANYONE FROM BEING SAVED. GOD DOES NOT PREVENT ANYONE WHO WANTS TO BE SAVED FROM BEING SAVED - ONLY THOSE WITH WHOSE WILL GOD SPECIFICALLY INTERFERES WANT TO BE SAVED.

[Chan]

Would you clarify the above for me? Are you stating that you believe that some are born predestined to be lost, and have no chance at salvation?

Just wanting to clarify what you mean, as I am not sure.No, he's falsely communicating the Calvinist teaching of predestination. Predestination only applies to those with whose will God chose to interfere in order to save them. It is not predestination for God not to choose to interfere with the will of everyone else. If God did not interfere with the will of some and cause them to want to be saved, no one would ever be saved because, on his own, no human being ever wants to be saved. "There is none that seeketh after God..."

[stmatthew]

I need your address. I could not send it through. Your internet company blocks files that are over 10Meg. I have it on CD for you..

PM me your address...

Nathan Eckstadt

You both need to sign up for an email account with Inbox.com. You can send large files with them.

[Steve Epley]

No, he's falsely communicating the Calvinist teaching of predestination. Predestination only applies to those with whose will God chose to interfere in order to save them. It is not predestination for God not to choose to interfere with the will of everyone else. If God did not interfere with the will of some and cause them to want to be saved, no one would ever be saved because, on his own, no human being ever wants to be saved. "There is none that seeketh after God..."

Chan in reality this is the same thing. Folks teaching personal predestination are in one of the two camps divine causation or divine desertion it is the same thing and both are unBiblical.
Jesus died for all so He did not desert them.

[Beard]

Steve Epley
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chan View Post
No, he's falsely communicating the Calvinist teaching of predestination. Predestination only applies to those with whose will God chose to interfere in order to save them. It is not predestination for God not to choose to interfere with the will of everyone else. If God did not interfere with the will of some and cause them to want to be saved, no one would ever be saved because, on his own, no human being ever wants to be saved. "There is none that seeketh after God..."
Chan in reality this is the same thing. Folks teaching personal predestination are in one of the two camps divine causation or divine desertion it is the same thing and both are unBiblical.
Jesus died for all so He did not desert them.

I agree with the Elder here in his statement above...

Predestination does not negate any person's will, for man was given a free will; for predestination is according to God's foreknowledge. The responsibility is on man, not God; for anyone that states the "burden of the Lord" shall be cut off, for the burden is on man.

Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people, the same with true believers. It is how a person responds to these things by one's own choice that determines the outcome. God's will is that all should come to repentance and none should perish, for he died for all. However, there is a world, the devil, and our own flesh that must be overcome by faith. The principle of faith enters into these things and cannot be discounted, for God moves in a life by faith. It is true that no one comes to Jesus except the Father draws him or her. However, someone prayed and asked God to save the lost sinner and God answered the prayer. Without believers taking up the cross and obeying the divine command of going into all the world, none would be saved. For dominion is man's as God gave Adam the dominion to subdue and replenish the earth. The duty of man is to fear God and keep his commandments in which if he obeys and does this, he then receives the reward. If man does not do so in obedience by faith believing God, then he cannot please God and will not be accepted. Jesus died for the whole world, but the harvest will not be reaped without laborers.

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2).

The church is predestined for glory. We can get in or get left out. The choice is ours. JMO

[OneAccord]

I do believe in Predestination but not in the way it is explained in, say, the Branham movement. I believe ALL people are predestined to be saved, but, sadly, most do not make it. Its like this... you and I plan a trip to, say, Florida. We drive separate cars and, along the way, one of us gets lost and ends up in, say Texas. We were both "predestined" for Florida. One of us made it, the other didn't. Kinda like "two grinding in the mill, one is taken, the otheris left". I do not believe CERTAIN people are predestined to be saved, and some are predestined to be lost. All are predestined to be saved, but only those who are born again are actually saved. Thats the reason I believe ALL names are written in the Book of Life before we are ever born. (There is nothing about our names being added when we are saved.) But, by rejecting God's Word, our names CAN BE blotted out. And thats why I believe when Jesus said Ye must be born AGAIN He meant exactly that. We were born of God before we were born in the natural. After birth we began to "learn" sin and rebellion and die spiritually. Jesus said we must be born of God (come alive again) a second time. I don't agree with the definition of "predetermination" below. I don't believe a person has ever been born that doesn't have the hope of salvation.

Predestination refers to a divine order that something must come to pass. Predetermination refers to the settling of events before they happen, planning a specific outcome.

Predetermination is practiced by man, not a deity. So through the choices of ancestors, a person could be born in total spiritual darkness, with no hope of finding the Truth.

[LaVonne]

Why aren't you calling it - Predestination?

That was my first question...

[Nahum]

Predestination refers to a divine order that something must come to pass. Predetermination refers to the settling of events before they happen, planning a specific outcome.

Predetermination is practiced by man, not a deity. So through the choices of ancestors, a person could be born in total spiritual darkness, with no hope of finding the Truth.

Bump for Carey

[OneAccord]

PREDESTINATION IS NOT GOD PREDESTINING PEOPLE TO GO TO HELL!!!!

EVERYONE IS BORN GOING TO HELL AND, IF LEFT ALONE, THEY WILL SURELY GO THERE. THIS IS NOT BECAUSE OF GOD BUT BECAUSE OF ADAM'S SIN THAT IS IMPUTED TO HIS PROGENY.

PREDESTINATION IS GOD HAVING CHOSEN FROM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD TO INTERFERE WITH THE WILL OF SOME HUMANS IN ORDER TO SAVE THEM. GOD'S CHOICE TO LEAVE EVERYONE ELSE TO THEIR NATURAL STATE IS NOT GOD PREVENTING ANYONE FROM BEING SAVED. GOD DOES NOT PREVENT ANYONE WHO WANTS TO BE SAVED FROM BEING SAVED - ONLY THOSE WITH WHOSE WILL GOD SPECIFICALLY INTERFERES WANT TO BE SAVED.


With all due respect to Bro. Chancellor, I disagree with the way this stated. It seems to imply everyone who is born is predestined, or predetermined to be lost upon their demise. I was once an adherent to the Branham Mesage and, it was, in fact, his teachings concerning predestination that caused me to see the error of those teachings. Branham taught that those "predestined" to be in the Bride (those of the righteous seed) would be saved and those predestined to be lost (those of the Serpents' Seed) woul be lost. Nothing at all could change that. I began to study this in the light of Scriptures and I began to see that all people, everyone who would ever be born, was (and are) "predestined" to eternal Life. However, sin entered the garden and humanity became marred with sin.
However, we are not born with sinful nature. Sin is a learned process. The Bible says we are born in sin and SHAPEN in inquity. This is to say that we are born in a sinful enviornment. We learn how to sin... we are, in affect, conditioned to sin by our surrounding. I was born in Florida... but am not a Floridian. I was raised in Indiana and it was there that I was raised. I was "shapened" in Indiania so, I am, for all intents and purposes, a Hoosier for that was the enviornment that I was raised in. So, children are born without sin, with innocence, but later, in their formative years that are "shapened" to comit sins. Swipe a piece of Bubble Gum, tell a whit lie, etc. They learn to sin by their surrondings. Later in life, when able to commrehend the difference between right and wrong, they are held accountable for their sins.

But they are not born with a sinful nature. If so, then, if they die in infancy, they will be lost. Because they are sinners. But God is more just than that. He wrote everyones name in the Book of Life BEFORE the foundation of the world so that, should one die in infancy, they would return to God. The names of every decendent of Adam was written in the Lambs Book of Life before we were born. We were born of God before we were born in the natural. Thats the reason Jesus said to Nicodemus "Ye must be born AGAIN". Like Adam we are born of God, we learn sin and die a spiritual death. But through Jesus Christ we can be born of God a second time. And Jesus made it clear in John 3 that he was in no way speaking to Nicodemus of the natural birth.

I go back to my earlier illustration. My brother and I plan a trip to Florida. We are "predestinated" to go to Florida. He drives I-75 and I drive 1-59. I take a right at Birmingham and end up in Texas. WE were both predestined to go to Florida. He followed the signs and I, being the stubborn, rebellious sort that I am, refuse all instruction and fail to arrive at my predetermined destination. So it is with life. We were born of God (before we were naturally born) and, because sin entered the world we take on (not "born with") a sinful nature and die a spiritual death. Somewhere along the line we hear the Gospel. Some accept, many more refuse and rebel and are ultimately lost. Those who accept are born again (born spiritually for the second time) according to Jesus' words in John 3.

John 3:16 shows that whosoever can be saved. Not a select few, but whosoever.

I don't agree with those who teach some are predestined to be saved, and others are to be lost. Nor do I agree that all are predestined to be lost and that, some, just might get saved along the way. No, I believe the Scriptures bear out that God wills that all be saved and has predestined it to be so. Many, however, refuse Him and are lost, not by God's choice, but by their own.

[Chan]

With all due respect to Bro. Chancellor, I disagree with the way this stated. It seems to imply everyone who is born is predestined, or predetermined to be lost upon their demise.It does not imply predestination or predetermination at all. It is a simple statement of Adam's sin being imputed to the entire human race. Every human being is born lost, born dead in trespasses and sins. Predestination has to do with God choosing for some people (His elect) to interfere with their will so that they will want to be saved. For those whom God leaves to their natural state (in other words, He does not predestine or predetermine them to anything), they will die in their sins because it is never in their will to want God.

I was once an adherent to the Branham Mesage and, it was, in fact, his teachings concerning predestination that caused me to see the error of those teachings. Branham taught that those "predestined" to be in the Bride (those of the righteous seed) would be saved and those predestined to be lost (those of the Serpents' Seed) woul be lost. Nothing at all could change that. I began to study this in the light of Scriptures and I began to see that all people, everyone who would ever be born, was (and are) "predestined" to eternal Life. However, sin entered the garden and humanity became marred with sin.I don't know much about Branham and I don't agree with the serpent seed doctrine.


However, we are not born with sinful nature.You are promoting the Pelagian heresy with this statement. Paul said we are born dead in trespasses and sins.

Sin is a learned process. The Bible says we are born in sin and SHAPEN in inquity. This is to say that we are born in a sinful enviornment. We learn how to sin... we are, in affect, conditioned to sin by our surrounding. I was born in Florida... but am not a Floridian. I was raised in Indiana and it was there that I was raised. I was "shapened" in Indiania so, I am, for all intents and purposes, a Hoosier for that was the enviornment that I was raised in. So, children are born without sin, with innocence, but later, in their formative years that are "shapened" to comit sins. Swipe a piece of Bubble Gum, tell a whit lie, etc. They learn to sin by their surrondings. Later in life, when able to commrehend the difference between right and wrong, they are held accountable for their sins.No, it doesn't mean we are born in a "sinful environment" it means that it is our very nature to sin.

But they are not born with a sinful nature.I disagree.

If so, then, if they die in infancy, they will be lost.Unless a particular infant is elect of God, yes. Why? Because Adam's sin was imputed to the whole of humanity. In effect, we sinned in Adam.

Because they are sinners. But God is more just than that. He wrote everyones name in the Book of Life BEFORE the foundation of the world so that, should one die in infancy, they would return to God. The names of every decendent of Adam was written in the Lambs Book of Life before we were born. We were born of God before we were born in the natural. Thats the reason Jesus said to Nicodemus "Ye must be born AGAIN". Like Adam we are born of God, we learn sin and die a spiritual death. But through Jesus Christ we can be born of God a second time. And Jesus made it clear in John 3 that he was in no way speaking to Nicodemus of the natural birth. I disagree. I don't believe everyone's name was written in the Book of Life and then, as people sin, their names are erased. I believe that only the names of the elect are written in the Book of Life. But, yes, in order to have the benefits of that actually applied individually, the individual must be born again. However, God will make sure that this happens and the proof of this is in Jesus' statement that all whom the Father has given Him WILL come to Him.

I go back to my earlier illustration. My brother and I plan a trip to Florida. We are "predestinated" to go to Florida. He drives I-75 and I drive 1-59. I take a right at Birmingham and end up in Texas. WE were both predestined to go to Florida. He followed the signs and I, being the stubborn, rebellious sort that I am, refuse all instruction and fail to arrive at my predetermined destination. So it is with life. We were born of God (before we were naturally born) and, because sin entered the world we take on (not "born with") a sinful nature and die a spiritual death. Somewhere along the line we hear the Gospel. Some accept, many more refuse and rebel and are ultimately lost. Those who accept are born again (born spiritually for the second time) according to Jesus' words in John 3.WRONG! If you were predestined to be in Florida, you would be in Florida.

John 3:16 shows that whosoever can be saved. Not a select few, but whosoever.John 3:16 says that whosoever believeth will not perish. Now, who are the whosoever? The elect. Why? Because they are the only ones who will believe.

I don't agree with those who teach some are predestined to be saved, and others are to be lost. Nor do I agree that all are predestined to be lost and that, some, just might get saved along the way. No, I believe the Scriptures bear out that God wills that all be saved and has predestined it to be so. Many, however, refuse Him and are lost, not by God's choice, but by their own.NO! Just because some are predestined to be saved DOES NOT MEAN that everyone else is predestined to be lost. This silly notion that "some just might get saved along the way" is a vile doctrine that essentially says MAN is the final arbiter of his own salvation and, thus, is sovereign over God.