Hell Bound? Says who???

[Esther]

I have noticed quite a bit of folks comfortable sending folks to hell with THEIR personal interpretation of the scriptures.

Some say one steppers are hell bound.
Some say three steppers are just as wrong.
Some say wearing red is the devils color...hell bound.

Just some examples of the years I see quite often.

My question is where does anyone feel they have the right to say anyone is going to hell? Has God told them someone was going to hell based on THEIR interpretations?

You may BELIEVE with all your heart you have the right interpretation AND according to YOUR interpretation that would send anyone to hell, for whatever reason you may have come up with.

But I would strongly urge you to leave hell bound to scriptures that are very clear in that regards.

Such as all liars will have their place in hell. That is Bible. Not someone's personal opinion of the matter.

It makes me very uncomfortable to see "Christians" sending other "Christians" to hell based on THEIR personal interpretations.

JMO

Does anyone else feel this way?

[rgcraig]

Yes Esther, I feel that way.

[Esther]

Yes Esther, I feel that way.

Thanks Renda. I consider you a very balance person.

I would hate to think I stand along in this thought. :)

[OneAccord]

Yep. I do. As Christians, our primary job is to reach the lost with the Gospel. Our number one concern should be to reach every lost soul with the Gospel. I have never been able to understand how we can honestly say we are concerned for lost souls when we are so busy consigning their souls to hell. And what is even more disturbing is the almost gleeful attitude of some who are doing the consigning.

[rgcraig]

Yep. I do. As Christians, our primary job is to reach the lost with the Gospel. Our number one concern should be to reach every lost soul with the Gospel. I have never been able to understand how we can honestly say we are concerned for lost souls when we are so busy consigning their souls to hell. And what is even more disturbing is the almost gleeful attitude of some who are doing the consigning.

Then argue that they weren't gleeful, when it's right there in the posts with :ursofunny smilie being used. Very disappointed.

[ChristopherHall]

I feel that way too. I think it shows a high degree of spiritual immaturity. A mature Christian can present what they believe to be absolutely true, explain why and give supporting texts and interpretations. However, at the end of the discussion the salvation of our Christian friends and brethren is ultimately in God's hands.

That's my take on it.

[Esther]

Yep. I do. As Christians, our primary job is to reach the lost with the Gospel. Our number one concern should be to reach every lost soul with the Gospel. I have never been able to understand how we can honestly say we are concerned for lost souls when we are so busy consigning their souls to hell. And what is even more disturbing is the almost gleeful attitude of some who are doing the consigning.

I know what you mean.

Although, I know there are also some that sincerely believe what they are saying.

I remember getting in trouble as a seven year old for telling my neighbor she was going to hell since she didn't have the Holy Ghost.

I was taught that and believed it, yet I didn't really understand it.

Many scriptures that I was "taught" the meaning of, I have studied out as an adult and realize the entire thought was not taken into consideration. Therefore, giving a wrong interpretation, in my opinion.

I have this personal agenda I was to know the whole TRUTH no matter if it is a tradition I have to break or a change that would be required to make in my life.

The Bible says if you do not have a LOVE for the TRUTH you will believe the lie.

I pray God give me a LOVE for the TRUTH!

I don't want to be deceived in any way. Not to do things I don't have to do, not not do things I should be doing.

I hope this makes sense as it is past my usual bedtime. :)

[Esther]

I feel that way too. I think it shows a high degree of spiritual immaturity. A mature Christian can present what they believe to be absolutely true, explain why and give supporting texts and interpretations. However, at the end of the discussion the salvation of our Christian friends and brethren is ultimately in God's hands.

That's my take on it.

I agree with you here. I was once there and very immature, but thought I knew it all. :)

[OneAccord]

I remember a preacher who was confronted by a snuff dipper. The Dipper said, "Preacher, are you telling me that I'm going to hell for dippin' snuff!?!" The preacher said, No, sir, I'm not sayin' that at all. But you know, I'm afraid there might be an empty chair at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb if you don't stop usin' that stuff!"

[freeatlast]

I am in agreement here. Many of us do not have clue the danger we put ourselves in when we make such judgements.

[Esther]

I am in agreement here. Many of us do not have clue the danger we put ourselves in when we make such judgements.

That is exactly my concern.:tissue

[OneAccord]

Remember the preacher from La who was so vocal in his demands to get rid of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker? He lead the charge and would have burned them at the stake if he could. But his judgement of them wasn't as severe as the judgement he brought upon himself. Yeah, judgement is a dangerous weapon. If we aren't careful our judging others often goes off like Barney Fifes gun and ends up shooting ourselves in the foot!

[Esther]

Remember the preacher from La who was so vocal in his demands to get rid of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker? He lead the charge and would have burned them at the stake if he could. But his judgement of them wasn't as severe as the judgement he brought upon himself. Yeah, judgement is a dangerous weapon. If we aren't careful our judging others often goes off like Barney Fifes gun and ends up shooting ourselves in the foot!

Yes.

As I recall the Bible says you will be judged by the same measure in which YOU judge.

Lord help me to judge with mercy, grace and LOVE!

[OneAccord]

.... and wisdom. Lord, help me to judge with wisdom.

I saw a man on the job having a seizure. Some men crowded around and I judged them to be good guys helping out of concern. Good Samaritians. Later I found out my judgement was off. They were only helping themselves to the mans wallet and other personal belongings. Sometimes, what may seem right, might be all wrong. Thats where judging with wisdom comes in. And condemning others to hell is not what I'd call judging with mercy, grace, love, or wisdom.

[Hoovie]

I have noticed quite a bit of folks comfortable sending folks to hell with THEIR personal interpretation of the scriptures.

Some say one steppers are hell bound.
Some say three steppers are just as wrong.
Some say wearing red is the devils color...hell bound.

Just some examples of the years I see quite often.

My question is where does anyone feel they have the right to say anyone is going to hell? Has God told them someone was going to hell based on THEIR interpretations?

You may BELIEVE with all your heart you have the right interpretation AND according to YOUR interpretation that would send anyone to hell, for whatever reason you may have come up with.

But I would strongly urge you to leave hell bound to scriptures that are very clear in that regards.

Such as all liars will have their place in hell. That is Bible. Not someone's personal opinion of the matter.

It makes me very uncomfortable to see "Christians" sending other "Christians" to hell based on THEIR personal interpretations.

JMO

Does anyone else feel this way?

Esther, I hereby nominate this as the post of the decade!!

AMEN!! :bliss

[Sept5SavedTeen]

My question is, do we still understand that condemning our fellow Christian does NOT include a trinitarian who calls themself a Christian, but hasn't obeyed the Gospel?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[Esther]

My question is, do we still understand that condemning our fellow Christian does NOT include a trinitarian who calls themself a Christian, but hasn't obeyed the Gospel?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

I am not following you here. Are you saying it is ok to say a trinitarian is going to hell?

[Esther]

Esther, I hereby nominate this as the post of the decade!!

AMEN!! :bliss

Thanks bro, but that is way over the top! :)

[Steve Epley]

Pearson is right NO one is going to Hell it has been closed and no longer open for business. The Buddists, Moslems, Atheists, whatever.
Take Hell-judgment-damnation-death out of the Bible.

[Esther]

Pearson is right NO one is going to Hell it has been closed and no longer open for business. The Buddists, Moslems, Atheists, whatever.
Take Hell-judgment-damnation-death out of the Bible.

Wrong.

There is specific Bible for who is going to hell.

[OneAccord]

My question is, do we still understand that condemning our fellow Christian does NOT include a trinitarian who calls themself a Christian, but hasn't obeyed the Gospel?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

No, if I understand your question correctly, I, personally, do not condemn trinitarians to hell. If they are Christians, I consider them brothers and sisters in the Lord and I just don't consign brothers and sisters to hell.

I pray they will obey the Gospel. I pray that I will obey the Gospel. I pray everyone obeys the Gospel, including that often overlooked verse that says something like "Judge not..."

I wish someone would post a verse or two that says "All trinitarians are hell bound". I don't remember reading that.

[Esther]

No, if I understand your question correctly, I, personally, do not condemn trinitarians to hell. If they are Christians, I consider them brothers and sisters in the Lord and I just don't consign brothers and sisters to hell.

I pray they will obey the Gospel. I pray that I will obey the Gospel. I pray everyone obeys the Gospel, including that often overlooked verse that says something like "Judge not..."

I have yet to figure out when WE got ALL the revelations of the Bible! Do we know everything? Are we not still learning and growing in the Word?

God knows all of our hearts. Those who refuse to obey and those who have yet to learn what they need to obey.

[Steve Epley]

Wrong.

There is specific Bible for who is going to hell.
Yes the unbelieving that is ALL Trinitarians and liars that ALL Trinitarian preachers.
Whosoever maketh and loveth a lie the whole Trinitarian world.

[Cindy]

I am in agreement here. Many of us do not have clue the danger we put ourselves in when we make such judgements.

Yes because GOD is a righteous judge. He alone has that power. Men do not.

[Esther]

Yes the unbelieving that is ALL Trinitarians and liars that ALL Trinitarian preachers.
Whosoever maketh and loveth a lie the whole Trinitarian world.

The unbelieving of what or who?

The Trinitarians believe in God. So what is the unbelieving you are referring to here?

[rgcraig]

Yes the unbelieving that is ALL Trinitarians and liars that ALL Trinitarian preachers.
Whosoever maketh and loveth a lie the whole Trinitarian world.

Are there some commas or something missing here?

[Steve Epley]

The unbelieving of what or who?

The Trinitarians believe in God. So what is the unbelieving you are referring to here?
John 8:24 except ye believe I am he ye shall die in your sins. He is NOT the second person of the Trinity thus they do not believe in the Jesus of the Apostles. EVERY Trinitarian is lost.

[OneAccord]

Nature will teach us alot if we will just observe. A baby who hasn't learned to obey isn't held to the same "standard" as, say, a teenager who knows to obey and doesn't. We don't send an infant to his room without supper for soiling their diaper. But we will ground (or beat the tar out of, just kidding... or am I?) a teenager for wilful disobedience of what they know. Any parent should know that. Don't ya think God is smarter than us?

[Cindy]

Are there some commas or something missing here?

Yeah, I didn't understand that either.

[rgcraig]

John 8:24 except ye believe I am he ye shall die in your sins. He is NOT the second person of the Trinity thus they do not believe in the Jesus of the Apostles. EVERY Trinitarian is lost.

But, they do believe that Jesus is God, right? So, if that is so, then they believe "I am he". I don't know any trinitarian that doesn't believe that Jesus is God.

[Steve Epley]

I will try again
the unbelieving which is all trinitarians are lost Rev. 21;8
ALL liars ,Trinity preachers, shall have their part.

[Cindy]

I will try again
the unbelieving which is all trinitarians are lost Rev. 21;8
ALL liars Trinity preachers shall have their part.

Trinity preachers preach lies because they don't preach that Jesus is God?

[Ron]

Pearson is right NO one is going to Hell it has been closed and no longer open for business. The Buddists, Moslems, Atheists, whatever.
Take Hell-judgment-damnation-death out of the Bible.

You said it Elder!

Everyones going to Heaven!

Except for those real "bad" people.

And soon they will go too!


Sad!:(

[Timmy]

I will try again
the unbelieving which is all trinitarians are lost Rev. 21;8
ALL liars ,Trinity preachers, shall have their part.

Welcome back, Elder! I missed you. :friend

[OneAccord]

John 8:24 except ye believe I am he ye shall die in your sins. He is NOT the second person of the Trinity thus they do not believe in the Jesus of the Apostles. EVERY Trinitarian is lost.

Well, at least he didn't say they were hellbound.

Thank you for posting that verse, brother. A little out of context in that in that entire chapter Jesus not once said He was God. Referred to Himself as the Son, as the way the truth and the Life, as the One who came from His Father, but not once as God.

And what I also find interesting is that, in that same chapter, He refused to enter a judgement against a woman who was legally and morally bound for hell. An adulteress, worthy of death. But He forgave her.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Yes, Ester, I am saying we have a duty and obligation to preach the WHOLE counsel of GOD to the lost, and that includes trintarians and that includes telling them that they are going to hell. Your thoughts?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[Cindy]

Yes, Ester, I am saying we have a duty and obligation to preach the WHOLE counsel of GOD to the lost, and that includes trintarians and that includes telling them that they are going to hell. Your thoughts?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

How do you win someone by telling them they are going to hell?

[AmazingGrace]

How do you win someone by telling them they are going to hell?

I was wondering the same thing but then I guess we should ask the number of people who attend the same church as he... that might clear up some things... how many have you won in the last yr sept???

[rgcraig]

Yes, Ester, I am saying we have a duty and obligation to preach the WHOLE counsel of GOD to the lost, and that includes trintarians and that includes telling them that they are going to hell. Your thoughts?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Dear Lord in Heaven, help us all!!!!

[Ron]

I was wondering the same thing but then I guess we should ask the number of people who attend the same church as he... that might clear up some things... how many have you won in the last yr sept???

Obviously he is wrong!!

No one goes to Hell!

[Ron]

Dear Lord in Heaven, help us all!!!!

You can say that again!

[Cindy]

I was wondering the same thing but then I guess we should ask the number of people who attend the same church as he... that might clear up some things... how many have you won in the last yr sept???

I understand preaching the truth that sin is not going to enter heaven, but I don't think telling someone they are going to hell is going to win them.

[Raven]

Esther
I second Steve's motion. Great post! God, alone, can judge the heart. Even we ourselves don't know our own hearts completely. If Hell is as terrible as has been preached then I believe we need to be very careful who we send there. There is just too much casualness by many in placing some souls so freely into Hell.
Raven

[AmazingGrace]

Obviously he is wrong!!

No one goes to Hell!

ROFL!!!!! RON!!!!! Go to bed!!! You are being bad now!!! LOL :reaction:tantrum

[AmazingGrace]

I understand preaching the truth that sin is not going to enter heaven, but I don't think telling someone they are going to hell is going to win them.

I umm I uhhh yea... what you said!!! LOL

He and BP and Da and some others should all get together... they would have a blast! LOL

[Steve Epley]

WE do NOT have the power to send anyone to Hell their rejection of neglect of God's plan of salvation Acts 2:38 will cause them to be lost NOT you or I.

[Cindy]

Seriously fear induced conversion is not right. Telling somone that God loved them so much that he sent His Son to die for their sins will win them much quicker than telling them they are going to hell!

[Ron]

WE do NOT have the power to send anyone to Hell their rejection of neglect of God's plan of salvation Acts 2:38 will cause them to be lost NOT you or I.

Amen!

[mizpeh]

Awhile back one poster pm'd me and told me he will accuse me to the Lord on judgement day. Yep. He wants to see me go to hell.

[Cindy]

I umm I uhhh yea... what you said!!! LOL

He and BP and Da and some others should all get together... they would have a blast! LOL

Oh man.........:ursofunny

Lock some people up in a room in Terrell............:bliss :party

[Cindy]

Awhile back one poster pm'd me and told me he will accuse me to the Lord on judgement day. Yep. He wants to see me go to hell.

Are you serious? Lord have mercy on that poor man.

[AmazingGrace]

Oh man.........:ursofunny

Lock some people up in a room in Terrell............:bliss :party

Oh Lord they all 3 belong there!!!! I am convinced! And lets see... 2 of em are already in Tx so it shouldnt be too much trouble..

[Sept5SavedTeen]

How do you win someone by telling them they are going to hell?

I don't win someone, I tell the Gospel in love, and GOD's Spirit draws the person unto HIMSELF. I preached this point on Sunday. It is in love that I tell someone that their sins are taking them to hell.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[rgcraig]

Obviously he is wrong!!

No one goes to Hell!

Ron - seriously....this is getting old.

No one is saying no one is going to hell.

It's just not OUR place to send them there.

[Cindy]

WE do NOT have the power to send anyone to Hell their rejection of neglect of God's plan of salvation Acts 2:38 will cause them to be lost NOT you or I.

THAT is the truth, preach it!!!!!!!

[Ron]

Ron - seriously....this is getting old.

No one is saying no one is going to hell.

It's just not OUR place to send them there.

Renda, come on you are a smart woman!

It gets old hearing that Baptism & spirit baptism are not essential to salvation.

Either it is or it isn't & it needs to be addressed.

Yes it is getting old from this side too!

[AmazingGrace]

Ron - seriously....this is getting old.

No one is saying no one is going to hell.

It's just not OUR place to send them there.

according to some posters around here lately I am pretty sure in their happy little world hell will be 99% empty... yep... :) thats ok tho.... I cant change their minds and anymore dont care to try so I can let them live in that happy little world they have created of their own :) I am fine with that.

[Cindy]

I don't win someone, I tell the Gospel in love, and GOD's Spirit draws the person unto HIMSELF. I preached this point on Sunday. It is in love that I tell someone that their sins are taking them to hell.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Okay, got it. I misunderstood your other post. Sorry.

[AmazingGrace]

Renda, come on you are a smart woman!

It gets old hearing that Baptism & spirit baptism are not essential to salvation.

Either it is or it isn't & it needs to be addressed.

Yes it is getting old from this side too!

Can I get an AMEN!!!!!

[Sept5SavedTeen]

I was wondering the same thing but then I guess we should ask the number of people who attend the same church as he... that might clear up some things... how many have you won in the last yr sept???

Oh, that is the most FOOLISH question I've ever heard! How many people did Noah "win to the LORD"? I tell you, AG, it's shocking to me when anyone accepts this Gospel message thru my or anyone else's preaching. The way of salvation is NOT broad, fun or easy. There may be some fun along the way, and there may be times easier than others, but if I'm going to be saved, Acts 2:38 just starts the process and as I learn more there's more for me to do, all the while not "falling away" so I can make Heaven my home. I must DENY MYSELF, and let me tell you, that's TOUGH (and there are times I don't deny myself, and I have to repent, lest I land myself in hell). I rejoice when someone obeys the Gospel call, but I don't kid them and say, "It'll be easy" or "JESUS will give you a better life here on earth", I tell them, "It's hard work, an uphill climb, a daily battle, but if you'll make Heaven your home one day, you go down this narrow path". Some accept the message, MOST don't.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[rgcraig]

Renda, come on you are a smart woman!

It gets old hearing that Baptism & spirit baptism are not essential to salvation.

Either it is or it isn't & it needs to be addressed.

Yes it is getting old from this side too!

Thank you.

Let me ask you this - - - in your day to day living does it change a thing in your life if someone believes something different than you?

You don't feel that way - it doesn't change how you believe, so why let it bother you?

I read stuff on here all day long that I don't agree with, but it doesn't change anything in my life.

[Cindy]

Oh Lord they all 3 belong there!!!! I am convinced! And lets see... 2 of em are already in Tx so it shouldnt be too much trouble..

Well, I like DA sometimes, but BP scares me.

[AmazingGrace]

Oh, that is the most FOOLISH question I've ever heard! How many people did Noah "win to the LORD"? I tell you, AG, it's shocking to me when anyone accepts this Gospel message thru my or anyone else's preaching. The way of salvation is NOT broad, fun or easy. There may be some fun along the way, and there may be times easier than others, but if I'm going to be saved, Acts 2:38 just starts the process and as I learn more there's more for me to do, all the while not "falling away" so I can make Heaven my home. I must DENY MYSELF, and let me tell you, that's TOUGH (and there are times I don't deny myself, and I have to repent, lest I land myself in hell). I rejoice when someone obeys the Gospel call, but I don't kid them and say, "It'll be easy" or "JESUS will give you a better life here on earth", I tell them, "It's hard work, an uphill climb, a daily battle, but if you'll make Heaven your home one day, you go down this narrow path". Some accept the message, MOST don't.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Ok... now I can accept this and it is fine... your posts in the past including tonight have come across that you just pretty much condemn to hell... you however explain here and in your last post with a little more love and tolerance in your message and I agree with you. Yes the message must be preached but it must be done without hate and done with love.. we cannot minister beyond relationship

[OneAccord]

Yes, Ester, I am saying we have a duty and obligation to preach the WHOLE counsel of GOD to the lost, and that includes trintarians and that includes telling them that they are going to hell. Your thoughts?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Well, no, Bro. Alex," maintaining our duty and obligation" to preach the Gospel doesn't necessarily include telling them they are going to hell. Preaching the Gospel is illustrated best in the story I alluded to a few minutes ago. The woman that was caught in adultery. It was the religious bigots and the self-righteous that were so quick to condemn the poor women. Jesus extended mercy, compassion and forgiveness. Now...let me ask you: Who do you think was more successful in fullfilling their "duty and obligation" of reaching the lost?

And, while I'm at it... since when is serving the Lord a duty and an obligation? This is a prime example of someone who thinks His service to the Lord is a duty- an obligation- something he has to do. Its an honor, a priviledge to serve the Lord with a joyful heart. A relationship with the Lord out of a joyful and cheerful heart is a healthy relationship. One that is based on servitude, duty and obligation is anything but healthy.

God doesn't want our service if it is being offered grudgingly, out of duty and obligation, no more than He wants our money given likewise. 2Cr 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. I'm sorry you feel you have to serve the Lord out of mere duty and obligation. If you want to serve the Lord, it should be done willingly and cheerfully as the honor that it is.

[Cindy]

Alex, OA and AG great posts. Amen.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Ok... now I can accept this and it is fine... your posts in the past including tonight have come across that you just pretty much condemn to hell... you however explain here and in your last post with a little more love and tolerance in your message and I agree with you. Yes the message must be preached but it must be done without hate and done with love.. we cannot minister beyond relationship

Glad we're on the same page...

However, to you and to OneAccord; there does come a time in witnessing, when the person needs to understand they're going to hell, and if you're asked, "Oh, no, do you think I'm going to hell?" The answer has to be an honest and loving, "Yes."
I used to be very sadistic in the past and revel in the idea of most people going to hell, I've since repented of that, my pastor also helped guide me away from that sadistic hell-loving phase I was going thru.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[Cindy]

Glad we're on the same page...

However, to you and to OneAccord; there does come a time in witnessing, when the person needs to understand they're going to hell, and if you're asked, "Oh, no, do you think I'm going to hell?" The answer has to be an honest and loving, "Yes."
I used to be very sadistic in the past and revel in the idea of most people going to hell, I've since repented of that, my pastor also helped guide me away from that sadistic hell-loving phase I was going thru.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

That's wonderful Bro. Alex. People do need to understand that if they are living in sin they are not going to heaven. And that our heavenly Father sacrificed His Son so they don't have to go to hell.

[AmazingGrace]

Glad we're on the same page...

However, to you and to OneAccord; there does come a time in witnessing, when the person needs to understand they're going to hell, and if you're asked, "Oh, no, do you think I'm going to hell?" The answer has to be an honest and loving, "Yes."
I used to be very sadistic in the past and revel in the idea of most people going to hell, I've since repented of that, my pastor also helped guide me away from that sadistic hell-loving phase I was going thru.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

I am aware of how to witness to people considering my husband has been an outreach director for 6 yrs and yes there is a time when it comes to a point that person needs to know they are lost... but I have very rarely had to tell someone if ever that they are going to hell... that is not my place and if I do what God has me here to do properly then they will discover this on their own in the words that He gives me to say to them and I dont have to be rude or say those things... again you cannot minister beyond relationship and if you build a relationship with those you are reaching... then you will have no trouble getting them to see the err of their ways without having to do much at all... God does the footwork in this situation.. you are just there as the sounding board... He works much better at the condemnation part then we. A measure of love none of us will ever know.

[Ron]

Thank you.

Let me ask you this - - - in your day to day living does it change a thing in your life if someone believes something different than you?

You don't feel that way - it doesn't change how you believe, so why let it bother you?

I read stuff on here all day long that I don't agree with, but it doesn't change anything in my life.

That is a good point, but let me ask you this question.

Is this a place for all?

Conservatives & Libs?

W/S & PCI or whatever, yet I still hear they believe in water & spirit baptism?

Then why is every second thread a denouncing of the W/S & anything that resembles OP is trashed?

My wife wears skirts & dresses, we are moderates, yet have you ever seen posts from me burning the britches of those who do not believe that? No!

I believe scripture is very clear about two hings that very fundamental to an Apostolics Faith Water Baptism by immersion in Jesus name for the remission of sins, and the infilling of the Spirit of God, and the Oneness of the God head.

Anything to tear that down is akin to shredding the Word of God up (in my eyes anyways).

What I do not know is this, others feel that way as well, it has been made known to this board & those who run it/own it.

If you don't want us here--tell us.

I'm a Gentleman (or at least try to be) I won't fight going nor rally others to my cause.

One thing is sure, this board has changed & not all for the good.

[OneAccord]

A sailor fails overboard in the Atlantic ocean. His shipmates crowd around and start yelling, "Sam, you better get out of that water!. You'll freeze. You're gonna drown!". And not one throws him a lifeline.

This is the best way that I can describe those who are so quick to condemn souls to hell.

Their words... no matter how well intended, are just empty words if they don't reach out with compassion.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Awww... let's give them compassion, and not mention hell... It's truly compassionate to mention hell.

Now, I'm going to give my own personal testimony and experience here, and I'm not here to UPC bash, but to say what I saw. While I was in the UPC church, I remember that pastor (a young man) being very much against my method of telling people they're going to hell. His response was, "Find needs and meet them" and "Don't be so harsh, Alex, you got to give people time" and he even mentions my "hell-fire and brimestone style evangelism" over the pulpit now that I'm gone (or so a sister tells me).
So, a lady called the assembly needing diapers, we brought diapers to her house, and offered her a ride to service. She accepted and came consistantly for two or three months (never got baptized or filled with the HG). Her life got better, working arrangements made it so she could provide better, and she no longer needed us... she was gone. After sitting under the preaching in that UPC church she was no better than when she came in, her baby just had a clean bottom, that was it!
We had a man with 11 kids, all full grown, and they were inner-city like and what not. He'd bring a few along here and there, and they would LITERALLY fill up the assembly hall and we'd be REJOICING! And then they were gone... And then a few stuck around for their kids when there was conventions... and then they were gone...
And there was just case after case of; "Oh, look what the church has to offer!" "You're going to have your best life yet!" "Come to all our family fun nights, even if your not consistent with service attendence!" "Praise the LORD brother/sister (even though you haven't obeyed, neither have you interest in obeying the Gospel), good to have you back!" "Oh, you got a divorce, but you want to get married for a third time- well, if you fall off the horse once (or twice) keep getting back on!"
I could go on and on... I left that place. Oh sure, a lot of relationships were built, but no one wanted to step on any toes. As for church membership there, it's a revolving door policy, they go in fluxes. As for church membership in larger UPC's where they follow the same model, well... there's always some new program being offered, keeping those would be "revolving door" people always coming back for more, so they keep those people... The assembly I now attend is larger and we don't have a revolving door system, and souls are coming in, in fact we had a young lady get baptized and filled with the HG just two weeks ago. But size of the assembly doesn't matter, the assembly I was sent to preach at on Sunday had 3 people from that assembly (and four from mine) there that service (when the pastor's there there's his family also)... It's NOT about size people! That was my experience in the UPC and with their "soul-winning" methods.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[AmazingGrace]

I never once said do NOT mention hell... fyi... said I dont have to most of the time.. half of the time they will before I say a word

[OneAccord]

Glad we're on the same page...

However, to you and to OneAccord; there does come a time in witnessing, when the person needs to understand they're going to hell, and if you're asked, "Oh, no, do you think I'm going to hell?" The answer has to be an honest and loving, "Yes."
I used to be very sadistic in the past and revel in the idea of most people going to hell, I've since repented of that, my pastor also helped guide me away from that sadistic hell-loving phase I was going thru.
GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Since you addressed this to me and someone else, I'll say this. I'm glad you're no longer "sadistic" in your approach. You're making progress. But, when I read statements like this:

...and that includes trintarians and that includes telling them that they are going to hell. Your thoughts?

..I just don't see or hear honesty and love. Why single out trinitarians? Why not Oneness folks who believe differently than you do? Or better yet, Oneness folks who trample Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: under their feet in their rush to do the very thing Jesus said not to do?

Had Aquilla and Priscilla used your approach, I don't think we would have seen Apollos working along side the Apostle Paul. Had Jesus agreed with the Pharisees that, "Yes, this woman should die!" she would have died.

Don't get me wrong- there is a time when "hell fire and brimestone" needs to be preached. But to single out an entire group of people, many of which are filled with the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues and consign them to hell based on the fact that they may not understand the Godhead doctrine correctly? Why stop there? Anyone who baptizes in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ is hellbound because, technically, thats not in the Bible. (And we are talking about technicalities here). Or what about me? I believe sins are forgiven and the Blood of Jesus washed away my sins at repentance. Am I hell-bound? Anybody that attends ANY denominational church is hell-bound? TV? Radio?

Yes, tell an individual the truth (if you know the truth). If they are bound for hell, tell them so. But we cannot use the same standard we use on an individual to an entire class of people simply because we don't like their doctrine. But, brother, and I say this with love: Be very careful with that sword of judgement there. Because Jesus said it can come back and cut you to ribbons. And I think Jesus knew what He was talking about. And thats all I got to say about that.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

I never once said do NOT mention hell... fyi... said I dont have to most of the time.. half of the time they will before I say a word

Well then good! Can you give an example of this from personal experience to give us a picture of your witnessing techniques?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[Ron]

Can I get an AMEN!!!!!

Thank you!

With apologies that our theology allows that some will go to hell!

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Anybody that attends ANY denominational church is hell-bound?

Please don't tempt me brother, lest my sadistic side come back... I would love a good "All UPCers Go to Hell" message, back then, but thank GOD for a pastor who cautions me against those things now!

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

PS- My pastor is just getting back from teaching a Family Life Seminar at a UPC assembly in the midwest.

[Jekyll]

A sailor fails overboard in the Atlantic ocean. His shipmates crowd around and start yelling, "Sam, you better get out of that water!. You'll freeze. You're gonna drown!". And not one throws him a lifeline.

This is the best way that I can describe those who are so quick to condemn souls to hell.

Their words... no matter how well intended, are just empty words if they don't reach out with compassion.
Bad analogy. A better analogy would be the Emporer's new clothes. They think they are clothed in salvation but they are on their way to hell.

Who says we shouldn't tell someone they are on their way to hell? IF that is the only witness line, no it won't be successful. But you can't broadbrush that no one should be informed of their respective destinations.

Now let's hug everyone and give them a Joel Osteen clinic! He doesn't tell ANYONE about doctrine or prospective destinations.

[crakjak]

This is one weird thread. The lost are really in trouble if we are their only hope to find their way to God!!!

God has delegated his creation to this, or "endless torment" now that is heresy.

[dizzyde]

Yes.

As I recall the Bible says you will be judged by the same measure in which YOU judge.

Lord help me to judge with mercy, grace and LOVE!

I haven't even read through this entire thread, and I hate to start responding before I do that, because generally the thread has taken some unforseen turn about 5 pages in.

But it is late and I need to go to bed, so I just wanted to say, Esther, I agree 100%, and I don't understand what makes people act this way.

What you said above is something that I carry with me always, the minute that I put myself in the position of being someones judge, I have put a spotlight on my life and my spirit, and am I really that perfect under intense scrutiny? I would rather work on my ability to be patient and kind and longsuffering and loving and ... Those things alone should keep me plenty occupied.

God has been in the business of saving and judging for a long time and he is real good at it. I think I'll leave him alone on the judgement seat.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

This is one weird thread. The lost are really in trouble if we are their only hope to find their way to God!!!

God has delegated his creation to this, or "endless torment" now that is heresy.

Oh yeah, I forgot about you crakjak, how are you doing? You know you were brought up at a home Bible study meeting a few months back (it was just us saints theorizing, no sinners around to take Inclusionist Theology and run with it).

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[Jekyll]

Who is judging? For every "judgement" from a conservative, there is an equal "judgement" by someone who just wants to be friends with everyone and doesn't think anyone is going to hell. They are equal "judgements" but just in the opposite direction.

[MrsMcD]

I have noticed quite a bit of folks comfortable sending folks to hell with THEIR personal interpretation of the scriptures.

Some say one steppers are hell bound.
Some say three steppers are just as wrong.
Some say wearing red is the devils color...hell bound.

Just some examples of the years I see quite often.

My question is where does anyone feel they have the right to say anyone is going to hell? Has God told them someone was going to hell based on THEIR interpretations?

You may BELIEVE with all your heart you have the right interpretation AND according to YOUR interpretation that would send anyone to hell, for whatever reason you may have come up with.

But I would strongly urge you to leave hell bound to scriptures that are very clear in that regards.

Such as all liars will have their place in hell. That is Bible. Not someone's personal opinion of the matter.

It makes me very uncomfortable to see "Christians" sending other "Christians" to hell based on THEIR personal interpretations.

JMO

Does anyone else feel this way?


WOW, Esther what a great post! You are right on. It is somewhat sad to see Christians put other Christians in hell just because someone doesn't believe like them. God help us for our judging attitudes. The bible also says, judge not lest you be judged. I surely don't want to judge someone else.

[Sherri]

I think the word hell is thrown around way too much on this forum. If we really believe in a literal burning hell, and realized how horrible it is, we wouldn't be so casually putting people in there all the time!! God help us.

[MrsMcD]

My question is, do we still understand that condemning our fellow Christian does NOT include a trinitarian who calls themself a Christian, but hasn't obeyed the Gospel?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

It's our job to show trinitarians biblical truth but it still isn't our job to judge them.

[MrsMcD]

Awhile back one poster pm'd me and told me he will accuse me to the Lord on judgement day. Yep. He wants to see me go to hell.

Childish...

[Light]

But, they do believe that Jesus is God, right? So, if that is so, then they believe "I am he". I don't know any trinitarian that doesn't believe that Jesus is God.

I haven't read the whole thread so someone may have said this but here goes. Ask the trinitarian if Jesus is the father . You will hear a definite no. They do not believe in one God.

[Light]

It's our job to show trinitarians biblical truth but it still isn't our job to judge them.

They are already judged by the word of God and what they believe and teach is a lie according to the bible.

[MrsMcD]

They are already judged by the word of God and what they believe and teach is a lie according to the bible.

It still isn't our job to judge them.

[MrsMcD]

I think the word hell is thrown around way too much on this forum. If we really believe in a literal burning hell, and realized how horrible it is, we wouldn't be so casually putting people in there all the time!! God help us.

I beginning to think people like to throw people in hell. God help us is right.

[Light]

You people that say trinnies believe in one God

WHY DONT YOU answer the question???????

Do trinnies believe that Jesus is the father?

Of course the reason you don't answer is because you know they don't.

[Dimples]

You people that say trinnies believe in one God

WHY DONT YOU answer the question???????

Do trinnies believe that Jesus is the father?

Of course the reason you don't answer is because you know they don't.

God is the father.

Jesus is God.

However, can Jesus be his own father? Jesus prays to his father.

[MrsMcD]

You people that say trinnies believe in one God

WHY DONT YOU answer the question???????

Do trinnies believe that Jesus is the father?

Of course the reason you don't answer is because you know they don't.

Is Jesus his own father?

[LadyChocolate]

That is a good point, but let me ask you this question.

Is this a place for all?

Conservatives & Libs?

W/S & PCI or whatever, yet I still hear they believe in water & spirit baptism?

Then why is every second thread a denouncing of the W/S & anything that resembles OP is trashed?

My wife wears skirts & dresses, we are moderates, yet have you ever seen posts from me burning the britches of those who do not believe that? No!

I believe scripture is very clear about two hings that very fundamental to an Apostolics Faith Water Baptism by immersion in Jesus name for the remission of sins, and the infilling of the Spirit of God, and the Oneness of the God head.
Anything to tear that down is akin to shredding the Word of God up (in my eyes anyways).
What I do not know is this, others feel that way as well, it has been made known to this board & those who run it/own it.

If you don't want us here--tell us.

I'm a Gentleman (or at least try to be) I won't fight going nor rally others to my cause.

One thing is sure, this board has changed & not all for the good.

AMEN!!! I for sure, don't agree with every one here... But I have backed away and avoided many of these threads because they are doing exactly what you said, Ron... They are shredding up the Word of God and it is sickening... I don't argue the points, but it does make me incredible sad to hear the beauty of the oneness of God thrown aside...and it has been along with the beauty of Jesus Name baptism and the infilling of the HolyGhost!

So, I just go about my day hoping I can find threads that are uplifting and comical because I do like posting here.....

As for people going to hell, we ALL are going to be surprised who is there! God is that judge, but I do believe we should win the lost with compassion. I hate a judgemental, condemning attitude. and just because you don't accept everyone with every doctrine does not mean you are condemning......the Wod of God already did that!

There is a lost world out there... People are have no hope.... People who are full of hurts and loaded with guilt of a miserable life! They know they are hopeless....They know they their lives are headed for a final destruction....It is up to us to share with them Christ, our God!

[Rico]

God is the father.

Jesus is God.

However, can Jesus be his own father? Jesus prays to his father.

So......Jesus and the Father are two different people? Is that what I am reading here?

[LadyChocolate]

So......Jesus and the Father are two different people? Is that what I am reading here?

Rico, this is truely sad if indeed, that is the overall view of the Godhead!

[Dimples]

So......Jesus and the Father are two different people? Is that what I am reading here?

Nope.

God is a spirit...he's not a person.

I really don't understand how so many make this so difficult.

[crakjak]

I think the word hell is thrown around way too much on this forum. If we really believe in a literal burning hell, and realized how horrible it is, we wouldn't be so casually putting people in there all the time!! God help us.

Don't let'em shout you down Sis. Sherri when you are preaching good....!!!:runhills

[Rico]

Nope.

God is a spirit...he's not a person.

I really don't understand how so many make this so difficult.

I got news for you. God also became flesh. What's so difficult about that to understand?

[Rico]

Rico, this is truely sad if indeed, that is the overall view of the Godhead!

Sister, the more I read some of the things I read around here, the more it makes me thank God for people like Bro. Campbell, who had a good grasp on who Jesus is and made sure to teach it to the people he was entrusted with. Yeah, his controlling ways drove me away, but I have never regretted learning all the things I learned, and experiencing all the spiritual things I experienced, while being a member of SH.

[Dimples]

I got news for you. God also became flesh. What's so difficult about that to understand?

Exactly, God did become flesh, but did God ONLY exist in Jesus? God's omnipresence still exists at the same time. Do you believe that?

The difference is God is a spirit and he became ALSO flesh in Jesus.

[LadyChocolate]

Sister, the more I read some of the things I read around here, the more it makes me thank God for people like Bro. Campbell, who had a good grasp on who Jesus is and made sure to teach it to the people he was entrusted with. Yeah, his controlling ways drove me away, but I have never regretted learning all the things I learned, and experiencing all the spiritual things I experienced, while being a member of SH.

That is funny because I was just thinking of Bro.Campbell while reading this thread... I too, am thankful for his teachings on the Oneness.! I tell ya, that is one area that when preached there, the place would erupt every time, in worship! Yes, I agree with ya!

[crakjak]

God is the father.

Jesus is God.

However, can Jesus be his own father? Jesus prays to his father.



1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (King James Version)


5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

[Rico]

That is funny because I was just thinking of Bro.Campbell while reading this thread... I too, am thankful for his teachings on the Oneness.! I tell ya, that is one area that when preached there, the place would erupt every time, in worship! Yes, I agree with ya!

Were you there that summer we went to camp at Shakamak? WOW! He preached the strongest Oneness message I ever heard from him one night while at camp. It was awesome!

[Rico]

Exactly, God did become flesh, but did God ONLY exist in Jesus? God's omnipresence still exists at the same time. Do you believe that?

The difference is God is a spirit and he became ALSO flesh in Jesus.

The way you worded your post gave me the impression that you were separating Jesus from God. Anytime I see someone using that kind of wording warning bells start going off in my spirit.

[Dimples]

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (King James Version)


5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

That's how I see it. There's is only ONE GOD!

[Dimples]

The way you worded your post gave me the impression that you were separating Jesus from God. Anytime I see someone using that kind of wording warning bells start going off in my spirit.

Well, how you worded your post lead me to believe that you believe Jesus ONLY....lol!

[MrsMcD]

Exactly, God did become flesh, but did God ONLY exist in Jesus? God's omnipresence still exists at the same time. Do you believe that?

The difference is God is a spirit and he became ALSO flesh in Jesus.

Ditto

[Rico]

Well, how you worded your post lead me to believe that you believe Jesus ONLY....lol!

I do believe in Jesus only. He's the only God I know. Is there another one? ;)

[crakjak]

That's how I see it. There's is only ONE GOD!

That's right; there is ONE GOD, THE FATHER! And the Father was in Jesus, was all of God in the physical body of Jesus? Of course not.

[Dimples]

That's right; there is ONE GOD, THE FATHER!

Why then are so many running scared around here? It seems so simple to me.

I'll have to catch up later. Off to work.

[LadyChocolate]

Were you there that summer we went to camp at Shakamak? WOW! He preached the strongest Oneness message I ever heard from him one night while at camp. It was awesome!

I think I was there! I remember two years there at Shakamak.... One year Bro.Paul Carroll was preaching and one year Shane West was preaching!

[Dimples]

I do believe in Jesus only. He's the only God I know. Is there another one? ;)

Now THAT does scare me. So what happened to God when Jesus was born? God ONLY exist in Jesus?

[OneAccord]

You people that say trinnies believe in one God

WHY DONT YOU answer the question???????

Do trinnies believe that Jesus is the father?

Of course the reason you don't answer is because you know they don't.

I can't really speak for trinitarians. I don't know what they believe or not believe unless I hear it from them. And I am not responsible for what they believe. But I believe this... Jesus said Jhn 14:10 " Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." , but, no, can't say that I believe Jesus was His own Father.

I find evidence that He is called "the everlasting Father", that He proceeded from the Father, that the Father was in Him, and He was in the Father, that he returned to the Father, and even sits on the Fathers right hand... but I haven't seem a lot that says He is His own Father.

I posted this quote on another forum:

'Yes, Jesus Christ is who he said he is: God himself in human form.
That is a crucial truth which undergirds the reality of our
salvation."

One Apostolic, Oneness, Jesus Name sister said she'd sure like to shake the hands of the Apostolic, Oneness, Jesus Name preacher who spoke those words. She was surprized to learn that those are the words of the Rev. Billy Graham. Whats more, she DISAGREED with the Apostolic, Oneness, Jesus Name preacher who said:

'The one true God united to Himself a human body and nature in order
to reveal Himself to us and to reconcile us to Himself through the
sacrificial, atoning death of His Son on the cross.'

Quote 1: -Billy Graham, DECISION: The Only Way 8/97 pg 2-3

Quote 2: - J.L. Hall Pentecostal Herald: The Marvel of the Incarnation 12/98 pg.2

[Rico]

I think I was there! I remember two years there at Shakamak.... One year Bro.Paul Carroll was preaching and one year Shane West was preaching!

Ok. This was the year Shane West was there. I don't remember going to the one that Brother Carroll attended. I really liked Brother Carroll and miss him. I got to talk with Brother West over the phone when Brother Campbell passed on.

That camp at Shakamak was great! We still talk about it sometimes.

[Rico]

Now THAT does scare me. So what happened to God when Jesus was born? God ONLY exist in Jesus?

I don't think you quite get where I am coming from, and don't really want to take the time to explain it to you right now. I will, however, ask you a question. What is the Father's name?

[LadyChocolate]

Ok. This was the year Shane West was there. I don't remember going to the one that Brother Carroll attended. I really liked Brother Carroll and miss him. I got to talk with Brother West over the phone when Brother Campbell passed on.

That camp at Shakamak was great! We still talk about it sometimes.

LOL... I remember that year....:bliss

[Timmy]

Ah, Oneness. So obviously the only clear, obvious, Bible-based, unifying-the-brethren (and did I mention obvious?) choice in theologies. And so simple! And so easy to understand! And .... oh, never mind.

:ursofunny

[crakjak]

Oh yeah, I forgot about you crakjak, how are you doing? You know you were brought up at a home Bible study meeting a few months back (it was just us saints theorizing, no sinners around to take Inclusionist Theology and run with it).

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Hey, I am doing great. Thanks for asking.

You don't have to call it Universalism, or Inclusion or Universal Reconciliation, when sinners are around, just call it the GOOD NEWS, or as Paul called it, "...the ministry of reconcilation..." All this other is the "worse possible news" especially if you really believe that God relegated the final disposition of his creation to fallible humans that can't even agree on what constitutes biblical salvation. NO, thankfully my friend He did not do that, He came Himself in form of a man to become the "...Savior of all men, especially of those who believe..." dealing out "...just recompense of reward..." for the deeds done in the flesh.

Blessing to you, and may God comfort you that the weight of the world is NOT on your shoulders.

[OneAccord]

Bump for Esther. And my apologies for my part in hi-jacking what was, and is a very good (and much needed) thread. Maybe we should extend the sister the curtesy of returning this thread to its intended purpose and move all the other discussion elsewhere. Again, my apologies.
I have noticed quite a bit of folks comfortable sending folks to hell with THEIR personal interpretation of the scriptures.

Some say one steppers are hell bound.
Some say three steppers are just as wrong.
Some say wearing red is the devils color...hell bound.

Just some examples of the years I see quite often.

My question is where does anyone feel they have the right to say anyone is going to hell? Has God told them someone was going to hell based on THEIR interpretations?

You may BELIEVE with all your heart you have the right interpretation AND according to YOUR interpretation that would send anyone to hell, for whatever reason you may have come up with.

But I would strongly urge you to leave hell bound to scriptures that are very clear in that regards.

Such as all liars will have their place in hell. That is Bible. Not someone's personal opinion of the matter.

It makes me very uncomfortable to see "Christians" sending other "Christians" to hell based on THEIR personal interpretations.

JMO

Does anyone else feel this way?


Alll well. So much for common curtesy.

[Timmy]

Ah, Oneness. So obviously the only clear, obvious, Bible-based, unifying-the-brethren (and did I mention obvious?) choice in theologies. And so simple! And so easy to understand! And .... oh, never mind.

:ursofunny

Speaking of unity, you know how God always answers prayer, but sometimes His answer is "no"? What about when Jesus prayed to His Father, "...that they may be one, as we are"? Was that prayer answered with a "no"?

[Steve Epley]

They are already judged by the word of God and what they believe and teach is a lie according to the bible.
And all liars............................................. .
Ans whoso loveth and maketh a lie.............

[Light]

Is Jesus his own father?

[John 8:24] I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
[John 8:25] Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
[John 8:26] I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
[John 8:27] They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.[John 8:28] Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 14:8] Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
[John 14:9] Jesus saith unto him, have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jesus is the father, Jesus is the son, Jesus is the Holy Ghost and all these three are one.

[Steve Epley]

[John 8:24] I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
[John 8:25] Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
[John 8:26] I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
[John 8:27] They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.[John 8:28] Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 14:8] Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
[John 14:9] Jesus saith unto him, have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jesus is the father, Jesus is the son, Jesus is the Holy Ghost and all these three are one.
If Jesus is not God the Father incarnate then He is NOT God. ONLY the Father is God.

[Timmy]

Jesus is the father, Jesus is the son, Jesus is the Holy Ghost and all these three are one.

OK, so Jesus and the Father are one. In the sense that they are the very same person. Jesus is the Father. Not "one" in the same sense that you and other believers are "one" (unified). So, what did Jesus mean when He prayed "that they may be one, as we are"?

[Steve Epley]

OK, so Jesus and the Father are one. In the sense that they are the very same person. Jesus is the Father. Not "one" in the same sense that you and other believers are "one" (unified). So, what did Jesus mean when He prayed "that they may be one, as we are"?
The Father and Son are ONE in more than ONE way. The Father was incarnate IN the Son.
However as Son He had a human will-and the will-purpose-goal of the Son in line with the Eternal purpose and He prayed for the church to be ONE in that sense.

[Baron1710]

The Father and Son are ONE in more than ONE way. The Father was incarnate IN the Son.
However as Son He had a human will-and the will-purpose-goal of the Son in line with the Eternal purpose and He prayed for the church to be ONE in that sense.

Did he have a human spirit?

[Steve Epley]

Did he have a human spirit?
He most certainly had a human-body-soul-spirit for He was human you can't be human without what makes a human.

[MrRight]

You people that say trinnies believe in one God

WHY DONT YOU answer the question???????

Do trinnies believe that Jesus is the father?

Of course the reason you don't answer is because you know they don't.

Jesus is not the father. Jesus is the father manifest in flesh. Jesus and the father are one. God was in Crhist reconcilng the world to himself. Jesus and the father are different. They are spirit and flesh but that are not two persons. This is my bloved son in whom I am pleased.

[Steve Epley]

Speaking of unity, you know how God always answers prayer, but sometimes His answer is "no"? What about when Jesus prayed to His Father, "...that they may be one, as we are"? Was that prayer answered with a "no"?
YES the prayer was answered read Acts 2.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

:choir
I'm a Modalistic Monarchian, I am not ashamed
Just read the book of Acts, We are still the same
We worship, only One GOD, JESUS is HIS Name
We are Apostolic, In everyway!

:bliss

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[Timmy]

YES the prayer was answered read Acts 2.

How long did the unity last?

[Timmy]

Jesus is not the father. Jesus is the father manifest in flesh. Jesus and the father are one. God was in Crhist reconcilng the world to himself. Jesus and the father are different. They are spirit and flesh but that are not two persons. This is my bloved son in whom I am pleased.

That clears it right up!

Jesus is not the father

Jesus is the father manifest in flesh

[Steve Epley]

How long did the unity last?
The unity of doctrine and prupose exist until this very day thus the prayer is yet being answered.

[POWERUP]

I'm Going To Ask A Question, That Was Ask To Me.

If We Are Apostolic To The Bone, Are We Just Stopping After Recieving The Hg.

You Know.....hundreds In Our City Being Saved, One Miracle After Another, Going House To House, Get The Picture.

If You Or Me Live In A City Of 4000 Or More, Even If There Is Other Churches In The City, And Mine Or Your ChurCh Has Been In That City For 30 Plus Years, And Only Has 75 To 150 Members. Are We Really Apostolic To The Bone?

DON'T SAY ITS NOT ABOUT NUMBERS. JESUS WAS ALL ABOUT NUMBERS.

[MrsMcD]

I'm Going To Ask A Question, That Was Ask To Me.

If We Are Apostolic To The Bone, Are We Just Stopping After Recieving The Hg.

You Know.....hundreds In Our City Being Saved, One Miracle After Another, Going House To House, Get The Picture.

If You Or Me Live In A City Of 4000 Or More, Even If There Is Other Churches In The City, And Mine Or Your ChurCh Has Been In That City For 30 Plus Years, And Only Has 75 To 150 Members. Are We Really Apostolic To The Bone?

DON'T SAY ITS NOT ABOUT MUMBERS. JESUS WAS ALL ABOUT NUMBERS.

I wonder if the Apostles had a church building with members.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

DON'T SAY ITS NOT ABOUT NUMBERS. JESUS WAS ALL ABOUT NUMBERS.

Yeah, like when he let the crowd leave, after they had heard him say that they must eat his flesh and drink HIS blood...
As for going house to house, it's happening in my assembly...

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[POWERUP]

Maybe Not A Church Building, But I Would Say A Lot Of Different Houses To Go To.

That Was A Great Thing To Do. Carry The Church To The People.

[POWERUP]

Thats Great Bro. Alex.

[Rico]

Yeah, like when he let the crowd leave, after they had heard him say that they must eat his flesh and drink HIS blood...
As for going house to house, it's happening in my assembly...

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Y'all do the cell group thing at your church?

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Y'all do the cell group thing at your church?

We've got various ministries and things, but we're not into programs and their monotony... We have a wild time at my earthy-crunchy, organically Apostolic church!

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[Esther]

John 8:24 except ye believe I am he ye shall die in your sins. He is NOT the second person of the Trinity thus they do not believe in the Jesus of the Apostles. EVERY Trinitarian is lost.

I wonder if you are splitting hairs here so to speak? If they believe Jesus died for them on the cross and that He was born of a virgin, how can you say they do not believe?

But, they do believe that Jesus is God, right? So, if that is so, then they believe "I am he". I don't know any trinitarian that doesn't believe that Jesus is God.

I don't either.

I will try again
the unbelieving which is all trinitarians are lost Rev. 21;8
ALL liars ,Trinity preachers, shall have their part.

Seems you have added to the scriptures here. I think you should also be very careful what you call lying, because it could come back to bite you. For instance, saying it is a sin to wear red is lying. That would mean some OP are going to hell based our your concept here.

Yes, Ester, I am saying we have a duty and obligation to preach the WHOLE counsel of GOD to the lost, and that includes trintarians and that includes telling them that they are going to hell. Your thoughts?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

I am not saying you can never tell someone they are going to hell. Never said that. I said ONLY say what the scriptures says and NOT what you THINK will send them to hell. Again, using my example of the list that the bible list, such as "all liars shall have their place in hell" (not veribam quote)

I think the word hell is thrown around way too much on this forum. If we really believe in a literal burning hell, and realized how horrible it is, we wouldn't be so casually putting people in there all the time!! God help us.

AMEN!

You people that say trinnies believe in one God

WHY DONT YOU answer the question???????

Do trinnies believe that Jesus is the father?

Of course the reason you don't answer is because you know they don't.

Because not ALL trinnies, as you say, believe the same thing anymore than all OP believe the same thing.

[RandyWayne]

Yes, Ester, I am saying we have a duty and obligation to preach the WHOLE counsel of GOD to the lost, and that includes trintarians and that includes telling them that they are going to hell. Your thoughts?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

And while witnessing, make sure you have MEAT LOAF playing in the background. You can play the song, "A bat by the dashboard light while dreams come true".

But..... back to dealing with some big "house" issues....... Just needed a couple minute break to make some drive by posts.

[James Griffin]

Great post Esther.

[Esther]

Great post Ester.

Thanks!

[Esther]

Just for the record to Ron and others. There is some very clear scripture for what will send you to hell. WE don't need to add to them our "opinions" of what is NOT spelled out as being hell bound.

That is my issue.

I am afraid many are deceiving themselves and thinking they are heaven bound by the way they dress. But their actions may cause them to miss out, just as the Pharisees did.

If the Bible says lying will send you to hell, then I believe that. But saying you are lying because you believe the scripture different than I do, is out of line, in my opinion. I am not God. I didn't write the scriptures. But I do strive to understand them the way God intended for them to be understood. NOT by some men than came before me that may have been right or they may have been wrong.

We must seek out our OWN salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING!

Not TRADITION!

[Sept5SavedTeen]

And while witnessing, make sure you have MEAT LOAF playing in the background. You can play the song, "A bat by the dashboard light while dreams come true".

But..... back to dealing with some big "house" issues....... Just needed a couple minute break to make some drive by posts.

The only song I know from that there Meatloaf is where the guy is trying to get the girl... lol, I'm imagining that song playing now, while witnessing...

"Will you LOVE HIM (JESUS), will you love HIM forever?"

"Well, let me sleep on it... Preacher, Preacher, let me sleep on it- Let me sleep on it, I've give you my answer in the morning"

"But I GOT TO KNOW RIGHT NOW!"

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[Rico]

The only song I know from that there Meatloaf is where the guy is trying to get the girl... lol, I'm imagining that song playing now, while witnessing...

"Will you LOVE HIM (JESUS), will you love HIM forever?"

"Well, let me sleep on it... Preacher, Preacher, let me sleep on it- Let me sleep on it, I've give you my answer in the morning"

"But I GOT TO KNOW RIGHT NOW!"

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Speaking of Meatloaf, have you seen his new commercial?

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Speaking of Meatloaf, have you seen his new commercial?

Nope...

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[MrsMcD]

The only meatloaf I have heard of is the kind you eat. :tissue

[OneAccord]

Glad to see the thread being nudged back to its intended purpose. I tried earlier... and offered my aplogies for my part in gettin things off track. It started out as a good thread. And it still is. Lets try to keep it that way.


But know I have vsions of meatloaf to contend with. I wish I knew how to make meatloaf.

[Rico]

Nope...

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex


You don't watch tv, do you?

[Sept5SavedTeen]

You don't watch tv, do you?

I avoid it when I can...

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[Rico]

I avoid it when I can...

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

It's ok to say you don't think it's ok for apostolics to have tv, if that is how you feel. I won't get offended. I just thought Meatloaf's new commercial was a neat spin on that sleep on it song.

[RandyWayne]

It's ok to say you don't think it's ok for apostolics to have tv, if that is how you feel. I won't get offended. I just thought Meatloaf's new commercial was a neat spin on that sleep on it song.

I think it is for the new HGTV show where people get a chance to actually spend a night in the home they are considering buying.

[Rico]

I think it is for the new HGTV show where people get a chance to actually spend a night in the home they are considering buying.

Now that you mention it, they are using it for that show too. What I am talking about is a commercial for a pre-paid cell phone.

[Esther]

Are you hijacking my thread again?:girlytantrum

[Rico]

Are you hijacking my thread again?:girlytantrum

Yeah! Whatcha gonna do about it? :boxing

[crakjak]

I avoid it when I can...

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Just as you avoided my post??:reaction

[Steve Epley]

Only folks that believe and obey Acys 2:38 are saved. NOT one person has been saved in this dispensation without obeying Acts 2:38.

[Esther]

Yeah! Whatcha gonna do about it? :boxing

I'm gonna git it back on track, that's wut!:happydance

[Esther]

Only folks that believe and obey Acys 2:38 are saved. NOT one person has been saved in this dispensation without obeying Acts 2:38.

With all due respect, there is no way you can prove this statement unless you are God!

[ManOfWord]

Only folks that believe and obey Acys 2:38 are saved. NOT one person has been saved in this dispensation without obeying Acts 2:38.

That's a mighty big opinion for such a little guy!! I'm just glad that you have the ability to speak for God and to be able to prove that assumption.....'cause that's all it is. :D

[Sept5SavedTeen]

That's a mighty big opinion for such a little guy!! I'm just glad that you have the ability to speak for God and to be able to prove that assumption.....'cause that's all it is. :D

As a brother who's only 5'3" myself, I really didn't like personal attack. He's not some "guy" he's an elder and should be entreated as such.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[ChristopherHall]

Only folks that believe and obey Acys 2:38 are saved. NOT one person has been saved in this dispensation without obeying Acts 2:38.

Acts 2:38 is indeed the original message as preached by the Apostles. However, Jesus said,

"47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." - Luke 12:47-48

When we (Christ's servants) stand before the Lord our knowledge of the Lord's will will be a factor in how we are judged. Those who knew about Acts 2:38 and refused will be in far worse shape than men like Wycliffe and Tyndale who knew nothing about it.

I will not say rather a sincere Christian soul is saved or lost while not knowing the fullness of truth, they are at God's mercy. However, if one wishes to KNOW they're saved according to ALL that the BIBLE teaches I strongly advise they obey Acts 2:38.

[ManOfWord]

As a brother who's only 5'3" myself, I really didn't like personal attack. He's not some "guy" he's an elder and should be entreated as such.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

He's a guy just like you and me, Sonny boy! :D

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Just as you avoided my post??:reaction

I don't think I avoided it, I thought it was retorical.
Also, before I say anything else, I just have to say that I was SHOCKED to find out that you and Sis. Falla are siblings! I HIGHLY doubt Sis. Falla believes in Inclusion theology (although she is a kind sister) I can almost bank on her believing in hell. How is Thanksgiving? I've got to know how you two get along, because you both just seemed like the last people on AFF that would be related, lol...
Ok, now to your post... we could go over and over the whole Inclusion Theology, and it sure is fun to think about BUT there's not enough Biblical backing for that, as there is of eternal hellfire and torment for those that reject the Gospel. We don't read of those who GOD will punish with fire ever, eventually coming out from that Lake of Fire, once their wickedness has been purged out from them as the dross, and then being brought to GOD. Those who will go to the Lake of Fire WILL be eternally lost (unless GOD works something else out, which is not explicitly stated in HIS Word).

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Acts 2:38 is indeed the original message as preached by the Apostles. However, Jesus said,

"47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." - Luke 12:47-48

When we (Christ's servants) stand before the Lord our knowledge of the Lord's will will be a factor in how we are judged. Those who knew about Acts 2:38 and refused will be in far worse shape than men like Wycliffe and Tyndale who knew nothing about it.

I will not say rather a sincere Christian soul is saved or lost while not knowing the fullness of truth, they are at God's mercy. However, if one wishes to KNOW they're saved according to ALL that the BIBLE teaches I strongly advise they obey Acts 2:38.

But what about men who carried Bibles with them, and even read them, but still stayed in the darkness they were in and didn't find the Apostolic Gospel? Isn't the Bible the best witness of the Apostolic Gospel?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[Sept5SavedTeen]

He's a guy just like you and me, Sonny boy! :D

Yes, but he should be entreated with some respect (even if you disagree with him on certain points or on certain things he says, which even I disagree on from time to time).

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[ManOfWord]

Yes, but he should be entreated with some respect (even if you disagree with him on certain points or on certain things he says, which even I disagree on from time to time).

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

So, where was there any disrespect? He and I are on the same level. We have been going at this since LONG before you were here, son. :D

[Sept5SavedTeen]

So, where was there any disrespect? He and I are on the same level. We have been going at this since LONG before you were here, son. :D

And why don't you stop despising my youth? There was an older woman in my assembly, when my pastor was first starting up that would condescendingly go to him and say, "That was good preaching sonny." He later became pastor of the assembly. She's now gone.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[ManOfWord]

And why don't you stop despising my youth? There was an older woman in my assembly, when my pastor was first starting up that would condescendingly go to him and say, "That was good preaching sonny." He later became pastor of the assembly. She's now gone.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

OK, you've made two statements without backing them up:

#1 That I was disrespecting my comrade, Bro, Epley.
#2 That I am despising your youth.

If ya can't back 'em up, don't say 'em! :D

[ChristopherHall]

But what about men who carried Bibles with them, and even read them, but still stayed in the darkness they were in and didn't find the Apostolic Gospel? Isn't the Bible the best witness of the Apostolic Gospel?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Men are often victims of traditional interpretations. Often the clouds of tradition hinder them from seeing what is staring them right in the face. However, if they walked in all the light they knew, I count them as Christian. I refuse to say rather they were saved or not. God alone is qualified to judge the human soul. However, I will reiterate...if one wishes to KNOW they are saved they should obey Acts 2:38.

Here's a question...can you find us a translation of the Bible translated and preserved by Apostolic, Acts 2:38 Christians??? The very Bible you read was translated by inspired Trinitarian scholars. Even the chapter and verse numbers are the result of an inspired Trinitarian scholar. So the very fact that you can say "Acts 2:38" instead of, "That statement written toward the beginning of Acts after Peter's sermon..." is the result of a Trinitarian.

C'mon...how arrogant can we be?

We sing Amazing Grace during our altar calls...and claim John Newton knew nothing about grace.

We sing How Great Thou Art...and claim that Carl Gustaf Boberg knew nothing about God's greatness.

You have to understand, the Catholic Church twisted the Scriptures terribly and many precious souls walked in the only degree of light and understanding they knew...most never owned or were even allowed to read a Bible. In fact the Bible was kept in Latin to make it even more difficult to read even if they were to gain a Bible. Then the Reformers each discovered neglected truths in Scripture and broke from the Catholic Church and continued to break into denominations as additional understandings were gained. After the revivalism of the Great Awakening the church grew cold awaiting a fresh revival. Denominational ministers prayed for revival. Of course...they thought revival would validate their denomination and would only be under their banner...however God had even more truth to reveal. Soon God began to pour out His Spirit and a modern Pentecost occurred. Then the Holy Ghost led those Pentecostals who continued to seek into Jesus name baptism!

Bro...we're not waiting on end time revival...WE ARE THE END TIME REVIVAL. GOD HAS RESTORED AND REVIVED THE CHURCH! Give God PRAISE!

To hear some we're a different religion than Tyndale and Wycliffe altogether. But while claiming this...they quote a Bible that is the product of these inspired men.

Let's refute error and teach the Apostolic Truth. But let's not judge men's souls...especially those who were Christian walking in all the light they understood.

Romans 14:4
"4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. ..."

[AmazingGrace]

As a brother who's only 5'3" myself, I really didn't like personal attack. He's not some "guy" he's an elder and should be entreated as such.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Dude I seriously dont think that could ever be considered a personal attack! Besides everyone always messes w Bro E about his height or lack thereof... chill a lil ok?

[AmazingGrace]

Sept... you are sitting here speaking of him talking disrespectfully to an elder( which he didnt do) and yet you are doing this exact same thing???? Slowly walk away from the computer!!! Take a break for a few min and rethink this...

[crakjak]

Men are often victims of traditional interpretations. Often the clouds of tradition hinder them from seeing what is staring them right in the face. However, if they walked in all the light they knew, I count them as Christian. I refuse to say rather they were saved or not. God alone is qualified to judge the human soul. However, I will reiterate...if one wishes to KNOW they are saved they should obey Acts 2:38.

Here's a question...can you find us a translation of the Bible translated and preserved by Apostolic, Acts 2:38 Christians??? The very Bible you read was translated by inspired Trinitarian scholars. Even the chapter and verse numbers are the result of an inspired Trinitarian scholar. So the very fact that you can say "Acts 2:38" instead of, "That statement written toward the beginning of Acts after Peter's sermon..." is the result of a Trinitarian.

C'mon...how arrogant can we be?

We sing Amazing Grace during our altar calls...and claim John Newton knew nothing about grace.

We sing How Great Thou Art...and claim that Carl Gustaf Boberg knew nothing about God's greatness.

You have to understand, the Catholic Church twisted the Scriptures terribly and many precious souls walked in the only degree of light and understanding they knew...most never owned or were even allowed to read a Bible. In fact the Bible was kept in Latin to make it even more difficult to read even if they were to gain a Bible. Then the Reformers each discovered neglected truths in Scripture and broke from the Catholic Church and continued to break into denominations as additional understandings were gained. After the revivalism of the Great Awakening the church grew cold awaiting a fresh revival. Denominational ministers prayed for revival. Of course...they thought revival would validate their denomination and would only be under their banner...however God had even more truth to reveal. Soon God began to pour out His Spirit and a modern Pentecost occurred. Then the Holy Ghost led those Pentecostals who continued to seek into Jesus name baptism!

Bro...we're not waiting on end time revival...WE ARE THE END TIME REVIVAL. GOD HAS RESTORED AND REVIVED THE CHURCH! Give God PRAISE!

To hear some we're a different religion than Tyndale and Wycliffe altogether. But while claiming this...they quote a Bible that is the product of these inspired men.

Let's refute error and teach the Apostolic Truth. But let's not judge men's souls...especially those who were Christian walking in all the light they understood.

Thank you, for a well reasoned post, this is the kind of posts that adds to understanding. Knowledge puffs up, but understanding tempers all our pride.

Chris,

Did you see the movie, Amazing Grace? I loved John Newton's character, he played it so well. "...I WAS ONCE BLINNND, BUUTTT NOOWW I seeeee...! So, exemplified the great grace and love of God. Brought tears to my eyes.

[Steve Epley]

With all due respect, there is no way you can prove this statement unless you are God!
God cannot lie and I read His book.

[dizzyde]

Sept... you are sitting here speaking of him talking disrespectfully to an elder( which he didnt do) and yet you are doing this exact same thing???? Slowly walk away from the computer!!! Take a break for a few min and rethink this...

Oh boy, round two, he is on a roll today! :crazywalls

[AmazingGrace]

Oh boy, round two, he is on a roll today! :crazywalls

I see but I have come to realize some people just arent worth my time... nothing personal but I am tired of being around people who do nothing but pull you down!

[Steve Epley]

Men are often victims of traditional interpretations. Often the clouds of tradition hinder them from seeing what is staring them right in the face. However, if they walked in all the light they knew, I count them as Christian. I refuse to say rather they were saved or not. God alone is qualified to judge the human soul. However, I will reiterate...if one wishes to KNOW they are saved they should obey Acts 2:38.

Here's a question...can you find us a translation of the Bible translated and preserved by Apostolic, Acts 2:38 Christians??? The very Bible you read was translated by inspired Trinitarian scholars. Even the chapter and verse numbers are the result of an inspired Trinitarian scholar. So the very fact that you can say "Acts 2:38" instead of, "That statement written toward the beginning of Acts after Peter's sermon..." is the result of a Trinitarian.

C'mon...how arrogant can we be?

We sing Amazing Grace during our altar calls...and claim John Newton knew nothing about grace.

We sing How Great Thou Art...and claim that Carl Gustaf Boberg knew nothing about God's greatness.

You have to understand, the Catholic Church twisted the Scriptures terribly and many precious souls walked in the only degree of light and understanding they knew...most never owned or were even allowed to read a Bible. In fact the Bible was kept in Latin to make it even more difficult to read even if they were to gain a Bible. Then the Reformers each discovered neglected truths in Scripture and broke from the Catholic Church and continued to break into denominations as additional understandings were gained. After the revivalism of the Great Awakening the church grew cold awaiting a fresh revival. Denominational ministers prayed for revival. Of course...they thought revival would validate their denomination and would only be under their banner...however God had even more truth to reveal. Soon God began to pour out His Spirit and a modern Pentecost occurred. Then the Holy Ghost led those Pentecostals who continued to seek into Jesus name baptism!

Bro...we're not waiting on end time revival...WE ARE THE END TIME REVIVAL. GOD HAS RESTORED AND REVIVED THE CHURCH! Give God PRAISE!

To hear some we're a different religion than Tyndale and Wycliffe altogether. But while claiming this...they quote a Bible that is the product of these inspired men.

Let's refute error and teach the Apostolic Truth. But let's not judge men's souls...especially those who were Christian walking in all the light they understood.

Bro. Hall I for one do NOT believe in the restoration of thr church! Jesus said the gates of Hell shall NOT prevail against the church. Either He lied or the church has always existed preaching truth.
Most so-called reformers were wicked men such as Luther & Calvin.
I have NEVER said that some did not have some type of experience where God touched them and dealt with them however they failed to walk into truth thus their light became darkness.
There is NO such thing as a Christian without obeying Acts 2:38!
If ignorance saves then salvation is of works. Only Calvary's blood saves and the plan it purchased.
You have allowed emotion and sentiment to override the clear teachings of the Bible.
I believe there are sincere Buddist, Moslems, Catholics, JW's, Mormons, are they saved?

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Sept... you are sitting here speaking of him talking disrespectfully to an elder( which he didnt do) and yet you are doing this exact same thing???? Slowly walk away from the computer!!! Take a break for a few min and rethink this...

I question the eldership of MOW, due to the fact that he does not believe in Acts 2:38 as the standard of salvation.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[AmazingGrace]

I question the eldership of MOW, due to the fact that he does not believe in Acts 2:38 as the standard of salvation.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

That is fine but he is your elder... if nothing else age wise and you do owe him that respect.. not to mention the owner/admin thing there... and your general disrespect is unbecoming... get a few years under your belt then try talking that way (if thats what appeals to you) but its just very ugly honestly.

And again... you havent been around these parts long enough to know but we do pick on Elder E's lack of height and he joins right in... again please just chill. You will find if you show respect you will get a lot more who will pay attention to what you say.. otherwise many will just put you on block and go their own way and not even read

[Sept5SavedTeen]

That is fine but he is your elder... if nothing else age wise and you do owe him that respect.. not to mention the owner/admin thing there... and your general disrespect is unbecoming... get a few years under your belt then try talking that way (if thats what appeals to you) but its just very ugly honestly.

And again... you havent been around these parts long enough to know but we do pick on Elder E's lack of height and he joins right in... again please just chill. You will find if you show respect you will get a lot more who will pay attention to what you say.. otherwise many will just put you on block and go their own way and not even read

I can joke about lack of height, however, as I percieved it, MOW was disrespectful. Also, I don't believe I was disrepectful, I simply said, due to the fact that Eld. E was an elder, he ought to be entreated as such. Also, as for giving and recieving respect, I have been told by others that the treatment I have gotten over my age is unfair and that there is a general disrepectful attitude of the members of AFF one-to-another. Someone else asked what an outsider looking into AFF would think by the way we talk to each other. Some of the Apostolic brothers and sisters here are terribly sharp in their personal remarks to their other brothers and sisters.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[Jekyll]

That is fine but he is your elder... if nothing else age wise and you do owe him that respect.. not to mention the owner/admin thing there... and your general disrespect is unbecoming... get a few years under your belt then try talking that way (if thats what appeals to you) but its just very ugly honestly.

And again... you havent been around these parts long enough to know but we do pick on Elder E's lack of height and he joins right in... again please just chill. You will find if you show respect you will get a lot more who will pay attention to what you say.. otherwise many will just put you on block and go their own way and not even read
So, he's back in the mix, eh?

I thought this was all about tolerance and balance. Midway through last year a few thought this forum was getting too conservative and stepped out. Now that it has swung back faar back the other way they all come back? That doesn't look like tolerance or balance to me.

[crakjak]

I don't think I avoided it, I thought it was retorical.
Also, before I say anything else, I just have to say that I was SHOCKED to find out that you and Sis. Falla are siblings! I HIGHLY doubt Sis. Falla believes in Inclusion theology (although she is a kind sister) I can almost bank on her believing in hell. How is Thanksgiving? I've got to know how you two get along, because you both just seemed like the last people on AFF that would be related, lol...
Ok, now to your post... we could go over and over the whole Inclusion Theology, and it sure is fun to think about BUT there's not enough Biblical backing for that, as there is of eternal hellfire and torment for those that reject the Gospel. We don't read of those who GOD will punish with fire ever, eventually coming out from that Lake of Fire, once their wickedness has been purged out from them as the dross, and then being brought to GOD. Those who will go to the Lake of Fire WILL be eternally lost (unless GOD works something else out, which is not explicitly stated in HIS Word).

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Falla and I get along just peachy, we discuss our views frequently, doesn't hinder our love for each other or our fellowship in the least.

BTW the lake of fire will serve its purpose and then it will no longer be needed. Some will have their "part" there, death and hell will be destroyed there. Many unquenchable fires from the scriptures have served their purpose and have long since gone out. God is going to completely eradicate all sin, evil and curse, He will not preserve them in a custom fire pit endlessly. He is a redeemer not a destroyer.

Be Blessed my friend.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

BTW the lake of fire will serve its purpose and then it will no longer be needed. Some will have their "part" there, death and hell will be destroyed there. Many unquenchable fires from the scriptures have served their purpose and have long since gone out. God is going to completely eradicate all sin, evil and curse, He will not preserve them in a custom fire pit endlessly. He is a redeemer not a destroyer.

I can't say that doesn't sound great...

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[ChristopherHall]

Bro. Hall I for one do NOT believe in the restoration of thr church! Jesus said the gates of Hell shall NOT prevail against the church. Either He lied or the church has always existed preaching truth.

Jesus said the gates of Hell shall not "prevail"...indicating that there will be an epic battle between the church and Hell. In spite of the Apostacy Hell thew at his church, God has always had a body of people hungry and seeking for truth. At some points the night was VERY dark and the people hundled around what flicker of truth they had and some days have been very great with Apostolic winds of Revival blowing and truth abounding. Jesus never said that the church wouldn't face Apostacy...as a matter of fact...we're warned that it would.

I'd also like to make note that in the book of Revelation Jesus talks about 7 different churches, some of which had fallen into idolatry and false teachings....yet they were still addressed as being a "church" and those who were struggling to not partake were admonished to overcome.

Can you name a consistant thread of churches who have always had "the truth" down throughout history??? Don't tell me Modalists, Cathars, and all these other obscure groups had the truth. Some were Oneness...but didn't have tongues or Jesus name baptism. Some had tongues but no oneness. Most believed in alternative doctrines of reincarnation or polygamy. Bro...if the church is as triumphant as you claim....show it to us! I contend that the church faced Apostacy just as she was warned by Paul.

But as you can see....she has prevailed and is preparing for the coming of her groom.

Most so-called reformers were wicked men such as Luther & Calvin.
I have NEVER said that some did not have some type of experience where God touched them and dealt with them however they failed to walk into truth thus their light became darkness.

They didn't "fail to walk in truth"...they only saw a measure of truth because of the clouds of tradition.

There is NO such thing as a Christian without obeying Acts 2:38!

Not true. Those who don't obey are disobedient Christians. Those who don't know are Christians bound with tradition.

If ignorance saves then salvation is of works. Only Calvary's blood saves and the plan it purchased.
You have allowed emotion and sentiment to override the clear teachings of the Bible.
I believe there are sincere Buddist, Moslems, Catholics, JW's, Mormons, are they saved?

Ignorance doesn't save. Ignorance will determine the severity of a "servant's" judgment.

And outside of Christ there is no hope of salvation.

What qualifies YOU to judge a soul for all eternity? We agree with what is "truth"....I choose to leave the judgment to God because I'm not qualified to judge the soul.

Personally...I find your spirit arrogant and full of spiritual pride. I've won a number of strong traditional Christians. And it wasn't by telling them that they were damned. It was through confronting "tradition" and exaulting truth...while leaving the judgment of the soul to God.

[Rico]

If God goes 1000 years without filling someone with the Holy Ghost does that change the message?

[ChristopherHall]

The message never changes. However, God is the only one to qualified to judge a soul. If you think you're qualified to make those judgments...be my guest. I will not say that those who had a measure of truth were saved...I also will not say they were lost. However, I will say that they are incomplete Christians at the mercy of God. God will judge justly. But if one wants to KNOW that they are saved without a doubt they should obey Acts 2:38.

You know your Bible is an inspired translation of men who were damned according to your logic? Do you ever sing Amazing Grace or How Great Thou Art? Do you have altar calls? What about that "wafer & thimble of juice" you have for Communion....all of those things are Trinitarian customs.

The Church is still wading through 2000 years of "tradition". I would assume that if you find yourself qualified to judge men's souls according to "your knowledge" of Scripture, you're assuming you now know all there is to know about the Word, God's purpose, and God's ultimate plan. Boy oh boy...man...you've arrived.

Not.

[Steve Epley]

Bro. Hall this is a discussion forum for Apostolics NOT an evangelism outreach board. When I pastored our services were filled with visitors and yes they came back. Denominal folks who have known me would tell a quite different story than you are telling.
I am not preaching to THEM here I am contending with those who claim to be Apostolic. If that seems arrogant to you then so be it.
I do NOT believe in the doctrine of pluralism God has only ONE plan of salvation and everyone without exception is lost outside of Acts 2:38.
I have baptized Trinity preachers and members, however if I believed like you I would not worry since they are already saved according to your theory missionaries ************ folks instead of saving people since ignorance saves.
In your view more folks will be in Heaven saved by ignorance rather than the blood.'
Either Jesus and His word is salvation or ignorance there is NOT two saviours.

[Esther]

God cannot lie and I read His book.

You are right God can not and will not lie.

However, even though you have read His Book, you do not have all the LIGHT of The Book.

You preach what you understand. Can you say you know as much of His Word today as you did 25 years ago? Or would it not be true as you aged and studied you found more LIGHT, more understanding?

Based on that concept is is very high minded to say YOU know and Judge God to be a liar IF He does not do as you judge His word to mean to you.

God is way above us, we see through a glass darkly, we understand only in part.

Which brings me back to my original post, we can not judge who is and is not in Hell. I do KNOW this there will be those in both locations that will surprise you.

[ChristopherHall]

Bro. Hall this is a discussion forum for Apostolics NOT an evangelism outreach board. When I pastored our services were filled with visitors and yes they came back. Denominal folks who have known me would tell a quite different story than you are telling.
I am not preaching to THEM here I am contending with those who claim to be Apostolic. If that seems arrogant to you then so be it.

Bro. Epley, I want to approach you as though you’re a father of mine in the faith. I believe you’re mistaken. Read your statement above and ask yourself…does it appear arrogant? First, you claim that anyone who disagrees with you are merely “claiming” to be Apostolic. Second, you indicate that you don’t even care if you’re appearing arrogant or even about the mere possibility of considering the validity of those who disagree with you’re point.

Bro. Epley…I’ve not said that anyone who hasn’t obeyed Acts 2:38 is DEFINITELY saved. I’ve also refrained from assuming I’m qualified to judge their souls by not saying that they are definitely condemned to an eternal Hell. I’m leaving their eternal state in the hands of an eternal God. I then press into the present and admonish obedience to Acts 2:38 for the certainty of salvation. Outside of Acts 2:38 I don’t believe one can have any assurance of salvation.

God isn’t debating in a forum. God doesn’t care if his argument is “right”. God loves humanity. God is acquainted with our weakness. God also understands our ignorance and our failure to understand. I assure you that if God can justify saving a soul through his grace without violating his righteousness…he will do it. We may not understand HOW God can do it…but I assure you through the prompting of the Spirit that he will. God takes no joy in watching a soul cry out in horror as they are bound and cast into an eternal Hell. Some of us take joy in the notion. Why? Because if they are wrong…we assume that makes us right. I submit to you that such a perspective is unholy.

I do NOT believe in the doctrine of pluralism God has only ONE plan of salvation and everyone without exception is lost outside of Acts 2:38.

There is only one gospel. And there is a clear pattern of how that gospel was applied in the first century found in the book of Acts. However, Acts 2:38 isn’t the Gospel. The Gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ to procure our salvation. Acts 2:38 is the full application of said Gospel. The plan isn’t a formula….the plan (or way) is a person…and his name is Jesus. Jesus said….

John 7:24
“Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.”

I know it appears that those who don’t have what we have are lost. Outwardly I can say they weren’t baptized in Jesus name or filled with the Holy Ghost. However, I am not qualified to judge the soul…so I am left with having to use righteous judgment by handing said judgment to God himself. I had read about so many who were being dealt with by God. They often knew they were living bound in traditions, they would survey the Scriptures and see glimmers of things they knew were true over their tradition…yet many things were still cloudy. They would weep into the evening and some experienced a spiritual “ecstasy” wherein they were groaning and sobbing with words unable to be understood. Their description sounds much like the baptism of the Holy Ghost…if God gives them the Holy Ghost…who are we to issue blanket condemnations? Many immediately sought water baptism through emersion realizing that their sprinkling wasn’t sufficient, however the only baptism offered anywhere for 500 miles or more was done in the three titles. So these individuals, screaming in their souls for salvation, frantically reached to grasp a truth through obedience to what they were able. Many didn’t even know there was even a controversy. They were just men and women of broken spirits seeking to obey what light they were able to see through their darkened looking glass. Do you honestly think God will laugh at their sobbing cries for salvation? Do you believe he’ll turn a snobbish disregard toward their frantic, but flawed, attempts to obey what they understood and were able to receive?

God judges between the thoughts and intents of the heart….God isn’t sitting in Heaven with a check list.

I’d say those who refuse to be water baptized are indeed in rebellion against the Scriptures. But untold numbers down through history, including the Reformers (flawed human beings that they were) felt the power of God, were broken under the ecstasy of the Holy Ghost, and sought the only water baptism available. God knows how to judge them. I cannot affirm their salvation….however, neither can I assure you of their condemnation. My God is able to judge justly. I can tell you that I believe the only way to be SURE one is saved is to obey Acts 2:38


I have baptized Trinity preachers and members, however if I believed like you I would not worry since they are already saved according to your theory missionaries ************ folks instead of saving people since ignorance saves.
In your view more folks will be in Heaven saved by ignorance rather than the blood.'
Either Jesus and His word is salvation or ignorance there is NOT two saviours.

I never assured you that non-Apostolics are saved. Neither have I assured you that they are eternally condemned. I have affirmed my Jesus and his ability to judge righteously and justly…for he is qualified to judge the thoughts and intent of the hearts of men…and you dear brother…are not.

A minister is not sent to condemn the masses…but to preach truth. I firmly preach that there is no salvation outside of Christ. I also firmly preach that the only assurance one can have regarding their salvation is found in applying the Gospel of Jesus Christ through obedience to Acts 2:38. If one refuses, I do not affirm that they are saved. I’m deeply saddened. I believe they are gambling with their very soul by holding onto traditions. And in the end…I weep into the night leaving them at the mercy of God. I’ve wept and pleaded that God would save and forgive men who were dying outside of Apostolic truth. I’ve pleaded their ignorance with tears and begged God not to charge them for their misunderstandings but rather put it on my account. Will God save them? I do not know. With much trepidation I can only say, I don’t know. But now the question is for those who are alive to hear…they CAN know. By obeying Acts 2:38.

If I believed like you I couldn’t even preach from the King James Bible, or any other translation for that matter. These translations were inspired and guided by scholarship and vision given to men outside of the Apostolic faith. I wouldn’t be able to bring myself to preach from THEIR Bible translation. Please…if you know of a distinctly Apostolic Bible translation…please I beg of you, present it to me. Why preach from a translation covered in the fingerprints of the damned?

Bro. Eply….do you know ALL truth? Are you qualified to judge the soul?

[ChristopherHall]

My mother-in-law is the chair of the blue collar chapter of our union. She’s always talking about American labor and the American worker, protecting manufacturing and civil service jobs, and the threat of foreign production and free markets. She can be very passionate and get the guys motivated. However…for years she drove a Honda CRV! ROFL

We have men who will condemn all non-Apostolics. The funny thing is that they are preaching from the, “King James Bible”; a translation produced by inspired Trinitarians. LOL

[RevDWW]

Revelation 21:1 - Revelation 21:8 (KJV)
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Note: It's man's choice to determine his destination.

There are two components to overcoming:
Gods part - the blood of the lamb
Our part - The word of our testimony

[Timmy]

Note: It's man's choice to determine his destination.


Riiiight. Everyone in hell will be there by their own choice. A fully informed decision. They were given all the facts, and decided "I choose hell, thank you."

Uh huh.

[RevDWW]

Riiiight. Everyone in hell will be there by their own choice. A fully informed decision. They were given all the facts, and decided "I choose hell, thank you."

Uh huh.

Romans 2:10 - 16 (KJV) 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

[Steve Epley]

Bro. Epley, I want to approach you as though you’re a father of mine in the faith. I believe you’re mistaken. Read your statement above and ask yourself…does it appear arrogant? First, you claim that anyone who disagrees with you are merely “claiming” to be Apostolic. Second, you indicate that you don’t even care if you’re appearing arrogant or even about the mere possibility of considering the validity of those who disagree with you’re point.

Bro. Epley…I’ve not said that anyone who hasn’t obeyed Acts 2:38 is DEFINITELY saved. I’ve also refrained from assuming I’m qualified to judge their souls by not saying that they are definitely condemned to an eternal Hell. I’m leaving their eternal state in the hands of an eternal God. I then press into the present and admonish obedience to Acts 2:38 for the certainty of salvation. Outside of Acts 2:38 I don’t believe one can have any assurance of salvation.

God isn’t debating in a forum. God doesn’t care if his argument is “right”. God loves humanity. God is acquainted with our weakness. God also understands our ignorance and our failure to understand. I assure you that if God can justify saving a soul through his grace without violating his righteousness…he will do it. We may not understand HOW God can do it…but I assure you through the prompting of the Spirit that he will. God takes no joy in watching a soul cry out in horror as they are bound and cast into an eternal Hell. Some of us take joy in the notion. Why? Because if they are wrong…we assume that makes us right. I submit to you that such a perspective is unholy.



There is only one gospel. And there is a clear pattern of how that gospel was applied in the first century found in the book of Acts. However, Acts 2:38 isn’t the Gospel. The Gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ to procure our salvation. Acts 2:38 is the full application of said Gospel. The plan isn’t a formula….the plan (or way) is a person…and his name is Jesus. Jesus said….

John 7:24
“Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.”

I know it appears that those who don’t have what we have are lost. Outwardly I can say they weren’t baptized in Jesus name or filled with the Holy Ghost. However, I am not qualified to judge the soul…so I am left with having to use righteous judgment by handing said judgment to God himself. I had read about so many who were being dealt with by God. They often knew they were living bound in traditions, they would survey the Scriptures and see glimmers of things they knew were true over their tradition…yet many things were still cloudy. They would weep into the evening and some experienced a spiritual “ecstasy” wherein they were groaning and sobbing with words unable to be understood. Their description sounds much like the baptism of the Holy Ghost…if God gives them the Holy Ghost…who are we to issue blanket condemnations? Many immediately sought water baptism through emersion realizing that their sprinkling wasn’t sufficient, however the only baptism offered anywhere for 500 miles or more was done in the three titles. So these individuals, screaming in their souls for salvation, frantically reached to grasp a truth through obedience to what they were able. Many didn’t even know there was even a controversy. They were just men and women of broken spirits seeking to obey what light they were able to see through their darkened looking glass. Do you honestly think God will laugh at their sobbing cries for salvation? Do you believe he’ll turn a snobbish disregard toward their frantic, but flawed, attempts to obey what they understood and were able to receive?

God judges between the thoughts and intents of the heart….God isn’t sitting in Heaven with a check list.

I’d say those who refuse to be water baptized are indeed in rebellion against the Scriptures. But untold numbers down through history, including the Reformers (flawed human beings that they were) felt the power of God, were broken under the ecstasy of the Holy Ghost, and sought the only water baptism available. God knows how to judge them. I cannot affirm their salvation….however, neither can I assure you of their condemnation. My God is able to judge justly. I can tell you that I believe the only way to be SURE one is saved is to obey Acts 2:38




I never assured you that non-Apostolics are saved. Neither have I assured you that they are eternally condemned. I have affirmed my Jesus and his ability to judge righteously and justly…for he is qualified to judge the thoughts and intent of the hearts of men…and you dear brother…are not.

A minister is not sent to condemn the masses…but to preach truth. I firmly preach that there is no salvation outside of Christ. I also firmly preach that the only assurance one can have regarding their salvation is found in applying the Gospel of Jesus Christ through obedience to Acts 2:38. If one refuses, I do not affirm that they are saved. I’m deeply saddened. I believe they are gambling with their very soul by holding onto traditions. And in the end…I weep into the night leaving them at the mercy of God. I’ve wept and pleaded that God would save and forgive men who were dying outside of Apostolic truth. I’ve pleaded their ignorance with tears and begged God not to charge them for their misunderstandings but rather put it on my account. Will God save them? I do not know. With much trepidation I can only say, I don’t know. But now the question is for those who are alive to hear…they CAN know. By obeying Acts 2:38.

If I believed like you I couldn’t even preach from the King James Bible, or any other translation for that matter. These translations were inspired and guided by scholarship and vision given to men outside of the Apostolic faith. I wouldn’t be able to bring myself to preach from THEIR Bible translation. Please…if you know of a distinctly Apostolic Bible translation…please I beg of you, present it to me. Why preach from a translation covered in the fingerprints of the damned?

Bro. Eply….do you know ALL truth? Are you qualified to judge the soul?
Bro. Hall 'righteous judgment' says:
"If our gospel be hid it is hid to them that are lost." 2Cor. 4:3 Was Paul arrogant?
Paul said even if an angel from Heaven.......was he arrogant?
John said he that is of God heareth us 1Jn.4:6-8
I believe you are honest and sincere however you are expousing pluralism.
Noah's message not only saved the 8 but condemned the world. Heb.11:7

[RevDWW]

Bro. Hall 'righteous judgment' says:
"If our gospel be hid it is hid to them that are lost." 2Cor. 4:3 Was Paul arrogant?
Paul said even if an angel from Heaven.......was he arrogant?
John said he that is of God heareth us 1Jn.4:6-8
I believe you are honest and sincere however you are expousing pluralism.
Noah's message not only saved the 8 but condemned the world. Heb.11:7

Noah's message did not condemn the world, it was their choice not to heed the message that condemned them.

[Steve Epley]

Noah's message did not condemn the world, it was their choice not to heed the message that condemned them.
Heb. 11:7....by the which he condemned the world."

[Ron]

Heb. 11:7....by the which he condemned the world."

There is a whole message in that scripture that is applicable in our day in so many ways Elder!

Good Post!

[ChristopherHall]

Bro. Hall 'righteous judgment' says:
"If our gospel be hid it is hid to them that are lost." 2Cor. 4:3 Was Paul arrogant?
Paul said even if an angel from Heaven.......was he arrogant?
John said he that is of God heareth us 1Jn.4:6-8
I believe you are honest and sincere however you are expousing pluralism.
Noah's message not only saved the 8 but condemned the world. Heb.11:7

First, you’re quoting a translation that you believe was translated by men who were blind to the truth. Please quote from an Apostolic English translation.

Second, you mistaken the “gospel” for being Acts 2:38. That’s not the gospel. The gospel is the “good news”. What is the good news? That Jesus died, was buried, and rose again to redeem us from our sins. Acts 2:38 only presents repentance, water baptism, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost. These are actions taken to apply the gospel to one’s life. There are many who are not blinded as to the gospel…they just misunderstand how to apply it and need to be nurtured into the way more perfectly.

Let’s look at men like Wesley. Wesley experienced deep repentance from sin, our holiness standards are largely based on early Holiness standards as understood and taught
by Wesley. Wesley sought to obey the Word of God by being water baptized and was water baptized. However, no one really understood the difference between using the name of Jesus and the titles. Their interpretation was that “in the name of” meant, “in the authority of”. So in a sincere and obedient heart Wesley was water baptized, howbeit in the only way they knew. Wesley also experienced deep spiritual ecstasy with weeping, sobbing, and unintelligible groaning in prayer. Wesley affirmed the doctrine of the Trinity, however he also admitted that there were contradictions that indicate that the nature of God was beyond their understanding. You have to remember…these guys couldn’t go down the street to the local UPCI church. This was all there was available to them. But notice, John Wesley had repented, was water baptized, and may have even experienced the baptism of the Holy Ghost. He may have beheld a glimpse of the truth in how he recognized contradictions in the Trinity. His only error…he was subject to the prevailing tradition of baptism in titles. Do you really think God is going to send John Wesley to a burning Hell? God may hit the buzzer and all of Heaven groan as God says,

“I’m sorry John, thanks for playing. You won the first round on repentance and you even won the bonus of the Holy Ghost baptism though you didn’t know what it was; but you missed the double jeopardy round of baptism, John. Yes you did your very best according to all you understood, but sorry…a third person didn’t speak the right formula above you as you were water baptized. For all your faith and obedience you will win an eternal trip to a burning Hell where you’ll experience torments for all eternity. Let’s give a big round of applause for John Wesley ladies and gentleman!”

Please READ what Jesus said Bro. Epley…

Luke 12:47-48
“{12:47} And that servant, WHICH KNEW HIS LORD’S WILL, and prepared not [himself,] neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes. ]{12:48} BUT HE THAT KNEW NOT, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes.] For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”

Notice something…Jesus is addressing corporal punishment not death sentence. Not an eternal incarceration or eternal torment. This is a disciplinary action. In short…this is the Judgment Seat of Jesus Christ. Notice these are both “servants”. Both are believers. However, one is an Apostolic who sneaks around looking at unclean things on the internet though he knew his master’s will is that he remains pure. But here’s John Wesley, he KNEW NOT the entirety of his master’s will. Understood repentance and even had the baptism of the Holy Ghost. He even lived a more separate lifestyle than most Apostolics do today. His only problem…he didn’t KNOW that his water baptism should have been in the name of Jesus. He didn’t KNOW the depths of Oneness doctrine though he struggled with the contradictions of the doctrine of the Trinity. Who do you feel is going to face the harshest judgment?

Jesus clearly teaches the fullness of truth…but then tells us that unto whom much is given…much is required.

Noah’s message warned the world. And I’d wager that out of the 8 that were saved, at least one of them didn’t have the depth of understanding Noah had. ;)

See, the gospel you preach is Repentance, Water Baptism, and Holy Ghost infilling. BUT THAT’S NOT THE GOSPEL. Paul tells us what the gospel is….

“{15:1} Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; {15:2} By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. {15:3} For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; {15:4} And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:” – I Corinthians 15:1-4

The Gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Acts 2:38 only expresses how that Gospel was applied to the believer’s life.

Are you preaching the Gospel the Apostles preached…or is this hidden from you as you preach applications, modes, and formulas as being our savior?

I love ya Bro. Eply…but I think you’re putting the cart before the Horse. You’re also assuming that what you understand is the bar by which all men will be measured and judged.

I believe you are honest and sincere however you are expousing pluralism.

I will not specifically say that one outside of the truth is definitely saved. Nor will I say that they are definitely lost. I am secure enough in what I believe to allow God to be their judge. However, if one wants to know how to be sure they are saved, I teach that they must believe in the Gospel and obey Acts 2:38.

[ChristopherHall]

Perhaps I’m not explaining my point well enough. Rev. David K. Bernard, a leading apologist of the United Pentecostal Church International wrote:

“God alone will judge the salvation of each person
(Romans 2:16; Hebrews 12:23). No human being can condemn
a soul to hell or guarantee him a place in heaven, for
salvation is a matter between the individual and God.
The Lord taught us not to judge each other, but to
judge ourselves and leave the judgment of others to God
(Matthew 7:1-5; Luke 6:37). Jesus did not come to condemn
the world but to offer salvation (John 3:17), and we
should do likewise. We should proclaim the gospel,
encourage obedience to it, and warn of the biblically prescribed
consequences for disobedience, but the final
results rest in God’s hands.”
– David K. Bernard, The New Birth Experience

[Steve Epley]

Perhaps I’m not explaining my point well enough. Rev. David K. Bernard, a leading apologist of the United Pentecostal Church International wrote:
Bro. Hall I have not passed PERSONAL judgment on anyone. However I can say what the Bible says.
If 2Cor. 4:3 offends you take it up with Paul

[Steve Epley]

First, you’re quoting a translation that you believe was translated by men who were blind to the truth. Please quote from an Apostolic English translation.

Second, you mistaken the “gospel” for being Acts 2:38. That’s not the gospel. The gospel is the “good news”. What is the good news? That Jesus died, was buried, and rose again to redeem us from our sins. Acts 2:38 only presents repentance, water baptism, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost. These are actions taken to apply the gospel to one’s life. There are many who are not blinded as to the gospel…they just misunderstand how to apply it and need to be nurtured into the way more perfectly.

Let’s look at men like Wesley. Wesley experienced deep repentance from sin, our holiness standards are largely based on early Holiness standards as understood and taught
by Wesley. Wesley sought to obey the Word of God by being water baptized and was water baptized. However, no one really understood the difference between using the name of Jesus and the titles. Their interpretation was that “in the name of” meant, “in the authority of”. So in a sincere and obedient heart Wesley was water baptized, howbeit in the only way they knew. Wesley also experienced deep spiritual ecstasy with weeping, sobbing, and unintelligible groaning in prayer. Wesley affirmed the doctrine of the Trinity, however he also admitted that there were contradictions that indicate that the nature of God was beyond their understanding. You have to remember…these guys couldn’t go down the street to the local UPCI church. This was all there was available to them. But notice, John Wesley had repented, was water baptized, and may have even experienced the baptism of the Holy Ghost. He may have beheld a glimpse of the truth in how he recognized contradictions in the Trinity. His only error…he was subject to the prevailing tradition of baptism in titles. Do you really think God is going to send John Wesley to a burning Hell? God may hit the buzzer and all of Heaven groan as God says,

“I’m sorry John, thanks for playing. You won the first round on repentance and you even won the bonus of the Holy Ghost baptism though you didn’t know what it was; but you missed the double jeopardy round of baptism, John. Yes you did your very best according to all you understood, but sorry…a third person didn’t speak the right formula above you as you were water baptized. For all your faith and obedience you will win an eternal trip to a burning Hell where you’ll experience torments for all eternity. Let’s give a big round of applause for John Wesley ladies and gentleman!”

Please READ what Jesus said Bro. Epley…



Notice something…Jesus is addressing corporal punishment not death sentence. Not an eternal incarceration or eternal torment. This is a disciplinary action. In short…this is the Judgment Seat of Jesus Christ. Notice these are both “servants”. Both are believers. However, one is an Apostolic who sneaks around looking at unclean things on the internet though he knew his master’s will is that he remains pure. But here’s John Wesley, he KNEW NOT the entirety of his master’s will. Understood repentance and even had the baptism of the Holy Ghost. He even lived a more separate lifestyle than most Apostolics do today. His only problem…he didn’t KNOW that his water baptism should have been in the name of Jesus. He didn’t KNOW the depths of Oneness doctrine though he struggled with the contradictions of the doctrine of the Trinity. Who do you feel is going to face the harshest judgment?

Jesus clearly teaches the fullness of truth…but then tells us that unto whom much is given…much is required.

Noah’s message warned the world. And I’d wager that out of the 8 that were saved, at least one of them didn’t have the depth of understanding Noah had. ;)

See, the gospel you preach is Repentance, Water Baptism, and Holy Ghost infilling. BUT THAT’S NOT THE GOSPEL. Paul tells us what the gospel is….



The Gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Acts 2:38 only expresses how that Gospel was applied to the believer’s life.

Are you preaching the Gospel the Apostles preached…or is this hidden from you as you preach applications, modes, and formulas as being our savior?

I love ya Bro. Eply…but I think you’re putting the cart before the Horse. You’re also assuming that what you understand is the bar by which all men will be measured and judged.



I will not specifically say that one outside of the truth is definitely saved. Nor will I say that they are definitely lost. I am secure enough in what I believe to allow God to be their judge. However, if one wants to know how to be sure they are saved, I teach that they must believe in the Gospel and obey Acts 2:38.

The man has more than one gospel. Wesley preached the gospel? Luther preached the gospel. And Pope Benedict I suppose preaches the gospel.
Sir if repentance alone saved anyone in the church age it saves today. Then why not confessing from the heart to the priest at confesssional?
Only the gospel preached by the Apostles saves. That and that alone.
Wesley-Luther-Graham-Osteen-Benedict all preach another gospel. Thus they are cursed.
I hate to pull the book on you about this judging but here it is:
"the WORD that I have spoken , the SAME shall judge him in the last day."
Jn. 12:48
"In that day whne God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL." Rom. 2:16
I am happy to be judged by that single standard that shall judge all men not emotions.
By the way I have nothing against Elder Bernard but he is not my standard.

[Ferd]

I am FOR the Gospel!

[ChristopherHall]

Bro. Hall I have not passed PERSONAL judgment on anyone. However I can say what the Bible says.
If 2Cor. 4:3 offends you take it up with Paul

If one is drawn to believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus...the gospel isn't hidden from them. However, tradition often hinders them from seeing the way the Apostles applied this gospel, i.e. Acts 2:38. Just like there are Apostolics who believe the gospel, have obeyed Acts 2:38, but tradition clouds there judgment regarding holiness.

[RevDWW]

Heb. 11:7....by the which he condemned the world."

Hebrews 11:7 (King James Version)
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith

Seems it was his building the Ark that condemned the world..........

[Steve Epley]

Hebrews 11:7 (King James Version)
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith

Seems it was his building the Ark that condemned the world..........
True, upon this rock I will build my church...that church and the message that builds is also condemns those who reject.

[ChristopherHall]

The man has more than one gospel. Wesley preached the gospel? Luther preached the gospel. And Pope Benedict I suppose preaches the gospel.

The GOSPEL is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ to provide our salvation. How can you remove JESUS from salvation? I’m beginning to think you’re the one who has denied the Gospel because it seems you don’t even know what it is. Acts 2:38 is the complete RESONSE to the Gospel.

You asked if Wesley preached the gospel? Answer: Yes. Wesley believed in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.

Luther? Yep. Luther also believed and taught the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.

The Pope? Yep. He too preaches the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

These men go wrong with how they preach a soul should respond or apply this gospel to their lives.

Sir if repentance alone saved anyone in the church age it saves today. Then why not confessing from the heart to the priest at confesssional?

Bro Eply…where did I ever say that repentance alone saved anyone? In fact I’ve only stated that I will not claim that we can be certain that a non-Apostolic is saved…also I cannot state for certain that they are condemned. I leave that judgment to God. I firmly believe that if you want to be saved for sure…obey Acts 2:38. I gave a Bible study to a Baptist friend of mine. After I was through he said, “So the Bible says that I can’t be a Baptist and be saved?” I just smiled and answered, “Last I heard Baptists don’t gamble.” One young man asked me, “But what about my grandfather? Was he lost?” I said, “I’m not God and I don’t judge the soul. But I do know that we are to judge ourselves according to this word. Have we obeyed what it teaches? That’s what will matter at the judgment.”

Preach the truth. Condemn false doctrine. Leave the judgment of the soul to God. I assure you…we don’t know EVERYTHING about this Word. God will not judge mankind by what WE understand. God grades on a knowledge curve. We see this in the parable of the servants wherein one knew the master’s will and the other didn’t. Unto whom much was given…much was required.

Only the gospel preached by the Apostles saves. That and that alone.

Let’s resolve this immediately. Is the “GOSPEL” the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ; yes or no?

Wesley-Luther-Graham-Osteen-Benedict all preach another gospel. Thus they are cursed.

They never taught the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus? (Please note: I'm not saying they were saved. This is a theological question.)

I hate to pull the book on you about this judging but here it is:
"the WORD that I have spoken , the SAME shall judge him in the last day."
Jn. 12:48
"In that day whne God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL." Rom. 2:16

Bro…I love ya. I have to pull the book on you too…

What is the Gospel? It is WRITTEN:

“{15:1} Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; {15:2} By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. {15:3} For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; {15:4} And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:” – I Corinthians 15:1-4

The GOSPEL is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. We know that anyone who denies this has denied the foundation of the faith.

Does God judge Christians according to their knowledge and obedience or a set blanket standard? It is WRITTEN:


Luke 12:47-48
“{12:47} And that servant, WHICH KNEW HIS LORD’S WILL, and prepared not [himself,] neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes. ]{12:48} BUT HE THAT KNEW NOT, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes.] For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”

I am happy to be judged by that single standard that shall judge all men not emotions.
By the way I have nothing against Elder Bernard but he is not my standard.

But apparently YOUR understanding of the Bible is??? Wow. You better know all things, yes even the fullness of truth…for if you don’t you’re in trouble. Because you will be judged by the measure by which you judged others.

Do you know all truth Bro. Eply? Is all mankind subject to being judged according to what YOU believe about the Bible’s message? After all…you repeatedly mistaken Acts 2:38 for being the good news, thereby cutting out the work of Christ to focus on the work of man. The good news (GOSPEL) is what God through Christ has done for us…Acts 2:38 is the proper response to that Gospel. Acts 2:38 isn’t “the Gospel” as you suppose.

[Steve Epley]

The GOSPEL is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ to provide our salvation. How can you remove JESUS from salvation? I’m beginning to think you’re the one who has denied the Gospel because it seems you don’t even know what it is. Acts 2:38 is the complete RESONSE to the Gospel.

You asked if Wesley preached the gospel? Answer: Yes. Wesley believed in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.

Luther? Yep. Luther also believed and taught the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.

The Pope? Yep. He too preaches the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

These men go wrong with how they preach a soul should respond or apply this gospel to their lives.



Bro Eply…where did I ever say that repentance alone saved anyone? In fact I’ve only stated that I will not claim that we can be certain that a non-Apostolic is saved…also I cannot state for certain that they are condemned. I leave that judgment to God. I firmly believe that if you want to be saved for sure…obey Acts 2:38. I gave a Bible study to a Baptist friend of mine. After I was through he said, “So the Bible says that I can’t be a Baptist and be saved?” I just smiled and answered, “Last I heard Baptists don’t gamble.” One young man asked me, “But what about my grandfather? Was he lost?” I said, “I’m not God and I don’t judge the soul. But I do know that we are to judge ourselves according to this word. Have we obeyed what it teaches? That’s what will matter at the judgment.”

Preach the truth. Condemn false doctrine. Leave the judgment of the soul to God. I assure you…we don’t know EVERYTHING about this Word. God will not judge mankind by what WE understand. God grades on a knowledge curve. We see this in the parable of the servants wherein one knew the master’s will and the other didn’t. Unto whom much was given…much was required.



Let’s resolve this immediately. Is the “GOSPEL” the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ; yes or no?



They never taught the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus? (Please note: I'm not saying they were saved. This is a theological question.)



Bro…I love ya. I have to pull the book on you too…

What is the Gospel? It is WRITTEN:



The GOSPEL is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. We know that anyone who denies this has denied the foundation of the faith.

Does God judge Christians according to their knowledge and obedience or a set blanket standard? It is WRITTEN:





But apparently YOUR understanding of the Bible is??? Wow. You better know all things, yes even the fullness of truth…for if you don’t you’re in trouble. Because you will be judged by the measure by which you judged others.

Do you know all truth Bro. Eply? Is all mankind subject to being judged according to what YOU believe about the Bible’s message? After all…you repeatedly mistaken Acts 2:38 for being the good news, thereby cutting out the work of Christ to focus on the work of man. The good news (GOSPEL) is what God through Christ has done for us…Acts 2:38 is the proper response to that Gospel. Acts 2:38 isn’t “the Gospel” as you suppose.

No Bro. Hall I do not know all truth but I do know how to be saved. Acts 2:38
is the death-burial-resurrection see Romans 6:2-5.
Bro. Hall the historical fact of the death-burial-resurrection is just a history lesson if it is not applied to our life.

[ManOfWord]

I will say it again as I have so many times before, to say that God will condemn ALL to hell who have not been baptized in Jesus' name and spoken in tongues, regardless of their surrender to the Lord is to say that God will mete out the exact same judgment for the righteous that He will for the wicked. You can "proof text" all you want, but God does NOT treat the righteous the same way He treats the wicked. :D

[Timmy]

I will say it again as I have so many times before, to say that God will condemn ALL to hell who have not been baptized in Jesus' name and spoken in tongues, regardless of their surrender to the Lord is to say that God will mete out the exact same judgment for the righteous that He will for the wicked. You can "proof text" all you want, but God does NOT treat the righteous the same way He treats the wicked. :D

OK, but who's righteous, and who's wicked? :stirpot

[Steve Epley]

Only the blood of Christ can make the sinner righteous. The blood purchased the plan and that plan is Acts 2:38.

Man by good works can never make himself righteous.

[ManOfWord]

OK, but who's righteous, and who's wicked? :stirpot



There is only one way to be righteous and that is through the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Abraham believed (proven by his actions) and it was counted to him for righteousness. Only those who have surrendered their lives to Jesus Christ and sincerely trust in what He did for them, can be righteous.

Righteousness does NOT come by saying the "sinners" prayer. Neither does it come from following a set of "steps."

[Esther]

There is only one way to be righteous and that is through the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Abraham believed (proven by his actions) and it was counted to him for righteousness. Only those who have surrendered their lives to Jesus Christ and sincerely trust in what He did for them, can be righteous.

Righteousness does NOT come by saying the "sinners" prayer. Neither does it come from following a set of "steps."

Righteousness in a nutshell is doing what is right. :)

[ManOfWord]

Righteousness in a nutshell is doing what is right. :)

Well said! :D

[Timmy]

Righteousness in a nutshell is doing what is right. :)
Well said! :D

Doing? I thought it was...., well, what you said here:

There is only one way to be righteous and that is through the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Abraham believed (proven by his actions) and it was counted to him for righteousness. Only those who have surrendered their lives to Jesus Christ and sincerely trust in what He did for them, can be righteous.

Righteousness does NOT come by saying the "sinners" prayer. Neither does it come from following a set of "steps."

So, is it righteous to help a stranger change a flat tire, or visit a sick friend in the hospital, or give money to cancer research, etc. etc.? Or is that just filthy rags?

Now, about that point you keep making:

to say that God will condemn ALL to hell who have not been baptized in Jesus' name and spoken in tongues, regardless of their surrender to the Lord is to say that God will mete out the exact same judgment for the righteous that He will for the wicked.

I take it that "the righteous" are those who have "surrendered their lives to Jesus Christ and sincerely trust in what He did for them". They are righteous from that moment on, and this imputed righteousness doesn't wait until baptism and tongues to happen. Right?

And the wicked are those who have not yet surrendered. Right?

Which is why I'm confused by your agreement with Esther's definition. Lots zero-steppers "do what is right", in normal day-to-day life. Things I listed above. Filthy rags, like giving your life for your country (how many of our soldiers that have died in war have gone on to a reward of torment in the lake of fire?). But, I suppose there is only one "right" thing that really counts with God, and that is taking that one step. Fruit of the Spirit doesn't count unless it's a Christian showing it.

Am I getting it now?

[TRFrance]

John 8:24 except ye believe I am he ye shall die in your sins. He is NOT the second person of the Trinity thus they do not believe in the Jesus of the Apostles. EVERY Trinitarian is lost.

Sounds as if you're saying they believe in "a different Jesus" than we do.
If that is the case, why does God fill Trinitarian Pentecostals with the Holy Ghost?

[Neck]

I have noticed quite a bit of folks comfortable sending folks to hell with THEIR personal interpretation of the scriptures.

Some say one steppers are hell bound.
Some say three steppers are just as wrong.
Some say wearing red is the devils color...hell bound.

Just some examples of the years I see quite often.

My question is where does anyone feel they have the right to say anyone is going to hell? Has God told them someone was going to hell based on THEIR interpretations?

You may BELIEVE with all your heart you have the right interpretation AND according to YOUR interpretation that would send anyone to hell, for whatever reason you may have come up with.

But I would strongly urge you to leave hell bound to scriptures that are very clear in that regards.

Such as all liars will have their place in hell. That is Bible. Not someone's personal opinion of the matter.

It makes me very uncomfortable to see "Christians" sending other "Christians" to hell based on THEIR personal interpretations.

JMO

Does anyone else feel this way?

************************************************** ******

What the Heaven for sure croud needs to proclaim for themselves is the mercy of God.


Is Grace that saves us....... it is Mercy that keeps us saved.....

[ChristopherHall]

No Bro. Hall I do not know all truth but I do know how to be saved. Acts 2:38
is the death-burial-resurrection see Romans 6:2-5.
Bro. Hall the historical fact of the death-burial-resurrection is just a history lesson if it is not applied to our life.

Bro. Eply,

You and I both believe that the Apostles taught that a believer must repent of sin, be baptized in Jesus name, and filled with the Holy Ghost. Any other teaching isn't entirely Apostolic and therefore doesn't fall within the scope of God's perfect plan. However, judgment of the SOUL should ultimately be left in the hands of God.

If I believed that all who were not Apostolic were indeed going to Hell I wouldn't be able to sing Amazing Grace, How Great Thou Art, read the King James translation of the Bible, attend a church with a steeple, or serve under a pastor who conducted altar calls. ALL are Trinitarian in origin.

It's clear that the Church fell into Apostasy during Catholic dominance. You claim that the church never fell into Apostasy....if she didn't...where is the true Church down through history? Can you present to me one body who solidly believed in Acts 2:38 and Christian living as we do who's existance spanded two 2,000 years or at least a generation? I've done some pretty solid research on this and I haven't been able to find a single body after the third century that even appears to be "of us".

[ChristopherHall]

I will say it again as I have so many times before, to say that God will condemn ALL to hell who have not been baptized in Jesus' name and spoken in tongues, regardless of their surrender to the Lord is to say that God will mete out the exact same judgment for the righteous that He will for the wicked. You can "proof text" all you want, but God does NOT treat the righteous the same way He treats the wicked. :D

Do you read an "Apostolic Translation" of the Bible?

[ChristopherHall]

Only the blood of Christ can make the sinner righteous. The blood purchased the plan and that plan is Acts 2:38.

Man by good works can never make himself righteous.

Do you believe that God has condemned every man who was part of translating His Word into English?

Don't you believe that God has the authority to say, "I fulfilled all righteousness in the days of my flesh for men crying for light as they lived grasping in the dark."?

Jesus wasn't baptized to fulfill all righteousness for his own sake...but for ours also. He lived and obeyed that which we could not. He fulfilled the Law of God and the plan of God that we might be able to enter in. It's predicated upon Christ's work.

I don't believe we can say with certainty that a non-Apostolic made it to Heaven. However, I cannot say with certainty that they didn't either. Some men presume to have all the answers, know the mind of God, and claim to be qualified to determine who is ultimately saved and who is ultimately damned according to THEIR interpretation of the Scriptures.

[ChristopherHall]

Sounds as if you're saying they believe in "a different Jesus" than we do.
If that is the case, why does God fill Trinitarian Pentecostals with the Holy Ghost?

God filled me with the Holy Ghost and I was baptized in Jesus name months before I came into a revelation of the Truth.

God had mercy on my ignorance. I was a seeking soul just wanting to be saved.

[Steve Epley]

God filled me with the Holy Ghost and I was baptized in Jesus name months before I came into a revelation of the Truth.

God had mercy on my ignorance. I was a seeking soul just wanting to be saved.

He did not have nercy on your ignorance He saw your true hunger and He will do the same for ALL who are truly hungry He will send them a Apostolic preacher just like He did in Acts. Are you saying He doesn't have the power or the will? He found you.

[ChristopherHall]

He did not have nercy on your ignorance He saw your true hunger and He will do the same for ALL who are truly hungry He will send them a Apostolic preacher just like He did in Acts. Are you saying He doesn't have the power or the will? He found you.

Yes...God saw my hunger...but that's only half the story. Bro...I believed in the Trinity when I was filled with the Holy Ghost. I have news for you...God not only had mercy on that ignorance...but God had mercy on a number of sins. My previous pastor and I have already coverd this ground...don't even try to redefine it. I find that offensive.

"No, what happened to you is...." Bro...how does that sound?

Now do you not only propose to be qualfied to judge the soul...but to define the salvation experience of others?

[Timmy]

He did not have nercy on your ignorance He saw your true hunger and He will do the same for ALL who are truly hungry He will send them a Apostolic preacher just like He did in Acts. Are you saying He doesn't have the power or the will? He found you.

This is self-fulfilling prophecy. You can claim that it is always true, even when someone who seems to be sincerely seeking God, and has even convinced himself that he is truly hungry, isn't sent an Apostolic preacher. You can just say no, he wasn't really hungry. He didn't love truth. (I just love it when you guys say that! It explains everything.)

[ManOfWord]

Doing? I thought it was...., well, what you said here:



So, is it righteous to help a stranger change a flat tire, or visit a sick friend in the hospital, or give money to cancer research, etc. etc.? Or is that just filthy rags?

Now, about that point you keep making:



I take it that "the righteous" are those who have "surrendered their lives to Jesus Christ and sincerely trust in what He did for them". They are righteous from that moment on, and this imputed righteousness doesn't wait until baptism and tongues to happen. Right?

And the wicked are those who have not yet surrendered. Right?

Which is why I'm confused by your agreement with Esther's definition. Lots zero-steppers "do what is right", in normal day-to-day life. Things I listed above. Filthy rags, like giving your life for your country (how many of our soldiers that have died in war have gone on to a reward of torment in the lake of fire?). But, I suppose there is only one "right" thing that really counts with God, and that is taking that one step. Fruit of the Spirit doesn't count unless it's a Christian showing it.

Am I getting it now?

Not bad at all! There is only ONE righteous deed that we must trust in to get us to heaven and that is the righteous deed on the cross. We certainly can do "righteous" deeds because they are the right thing to do, but those will NOT get us to heaven.......they can't get us to heaven. If they could, we wouldn't need HIS righteous deed.

Do you read an "Apostolic Translation" of the Bible?

I AM an apostle! :D




(in the truest sense of the word)

[TRFrance]

If I believed that all who were not Apostolic were indeed going to Hell I wouldn't be able to sing Amazing Grace, How Great Thou Art, read the King James translation of the Bible, attend a church with a steeple, or serve under a pastor who conducted altar calls. ALL are Trinitarian in origin.

Frankly, I think thats a weak and invalid argument. One has nothing to do with another.

Consider the following:

We read books, live in houses, drive cars etc made by people who are atheist, Muslim, etc.

Even some of the stuff you can buy in a Christian bookstore (lexicons, Hebrew commentaries, books on Bible history) might be written by men who are religious skeptics, etc -- men whose hearts are not right with God. But that doesn't prevent us from finding these tools to be useful in our walk with God and service to Him.

Some of the most popular Christian/gospel songs over the years were written by people who who were "in church" but who werent truly "in Christ". But that doesn't prevent the songs from being a blessing.

So the spiritual state of the person who wrote a Christian song, built a church with a steeple, etc is actually not very relevant at all.

[Steve Epley]

Yes...God saw my hunger...but that's only half the story. Bro...I believed in the Trinity when I was filled with the Holy Ghost. I have news for you...God not only had mercy on that ignorance...but God had mercy on a number of sins. My previous pastor and I have already coverd this ground...don't even try to redefine it. I find that offensive.

"No, what happened to you is...." Bro...how does that sound?

Now do you not only propose to be qualfied to judge the soul...but to define the salvation experience of others?

Bro. Hall I read the Book of Acts and there God always sent a preacher to the hungry. Jesus said "Blessed are they they hunger and thirst..."
I am not being arrogant I just believe the book and where in the book did He just sent the Spirit to the ignorant? It was MORE than ignorance it was bonifide hunger.

[Light]

Bro. Hall I read the Book of Acts and there God always sent a preacher to the hungry. Jesus said "Blessed are they they hunger and thirst..."
I am not being arrogant I just believe the book and where in the book did He just sent the Spirit to the ignorant? It was MORE than ignorance it was bonifide hunger.

Br Epley tradition is more important than what the bible says to most here. I have a family that moved here and you should hear some of the things that they have been taught and most of it can't be backed up with bible. They say well my pastor said it. Thank God this family is responding to real bible teaching not just some preachers word.

[Esther]

Br Epley tradition is more important than what the bible says to most here. I have a family that moved here and you should hear some of the things that they have been taught and most of it can't be backed up with bible. They say well my pastor said it. Thank God this family is responding to real bible teaching not just some preachers word.

I am finding tradition is just as strong in the UPC as it is in the Baptist and the Catholic.

Some "tradition" is good. But what is best is a true understanding of the Word of God.

[ChristopherHall]

Bro. Hall I read the Book of Acts and there God always sent a preacher to the hungry. Jesus said "Blessed are they they hunger and thirst..."
I am not being arrogant I just believe the book and where in the book did He just sent the Spirit to the ignorant? It was MORE than ignorance it was bonifide hunger.

Bro. Eply…you’re missing the entire point. Yes…there was a bonified hunger in my life. However, God had mercy on my “theological ignorance” and filled me with the Holy Ghost. I didn’t have to be Oneness or proclaim to be UPCI to get the Holy Ghost. I didn’t even have an understanding of Jesus name baptism when I received the Holy Ghost. God responded to the hunger to be saved…however, he had much mercy on my theological ignorance. I was water baptized the night I was filled with the Holy Ghost, but I didn’t know the significance of the experience I had. It wasn’t until months later that God began to reveal “Oneness” to me. I was saved the entire time bro…I didn’t have to be “Apostolic” and understand it all to be saved.

Likewise, there are many “non-Apostolics” down through history that didn’t have a complete “theological” understanding of truth, however God responded to their hunger too. Men like Tyndale, Wycliffe, Wesley…these men had an imperfect understanding…but who are we to judge their salvation? Should we not allow God to be the judge of their souls? Sure, I don’t see how they experienced the fullness of the salvation preached in the New Testament (we agree), but only God is qualified to judge their eternal soul. I will not say with any certainty that they were saved…however, I also will not say with any certainty that they were condemned. I allow God to be their judge.

I’ll give you a promise Bro. Eply…if you convince me that all these men like Tyndale, Wycliffe, etc. are absolutely damned without hope…I’ll burn all my Bibles (translations which they strongly influenced) and seek that perfect Apostolic Bible kept by the truth people of God.

Also…can you show me ONE group down through history that understood the fullness of truth like we do in the Apostolic movement today?

Lastly, are you sure the interpretation of Scripture that YOU hold is absolutely without hint of error?

[Light]

I am finding tradition is just as strong in the UPC as it is in the Baptist and the Catholic.

Some "tradition" is good. But what is best is a true understanding of the Word of God.

Esther these people came out of the UPC.
Do you go to Kilgore's church or did you?

[Light]

Likewise, there are many “non-Apostolics” down through history that didn’t have a complete “theological” understanding of truth, however God responded to their hunger too. Men like Tyndale, Wycliffe, Wesley…these men had an imperfect understanding…but who are we to judge their salvation? Should we not allow God to be the judge of their souls? Sure, I don’t see how they experienced the fullness of the salvation preached in the New Testament (we agree), but only God is qualified to judge their eternal soul. I will not say with any certainty that they were saved…however, I also will not say with any certainty that they were condemned. I allow God to be their judge.



Yes we must let God be the judge. His word judges. If the blind lead the blind they both fall in the ditch. Luke 6:39

When I read what you write I see that you must think God was not competent when he chose the apostles.

(Joh 17:8) For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. Jesus said he gave them all the words

(Joh 17:9) I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

(Joh 17:18) As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

(Joh 17:20) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Jesus said he gave them the word and that they received it. Pete said one must be baptised in the name of Jesus for salvation. The men you refer to in your post were not baptised in Jesus name. They did not believe on Jesus through the words of the apostles. We know this by their own writings.

Truth came from the Father to Jesus and he gave truth to the apostles and the apostles gave truth to the world. How hard is that to understand? Read all of the 17th Chapter of John.

[Steve Epley]

Yes we must let God be the judge. His word judges. If the blind lead the blind they both fall in the ditch. Luke 6:39

When I read what you write I see that you must think God was not competent when he chose the apostles.

(Joh 17:8) For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. Jesus said he gave them all the words

(Joh 17:9) I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

(Joh 17:18) As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

(Joh 17:20) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Jesus said he gave them the word and that they received it. Pete said one must be baptised in the name of Jesus for salvation. The men you refer to in your post were not baptised in Jesus name. They did not believe on Jesus through the words of the apostles. We know this by their own writings.

Truth came from the Father to Jesus and he gave truth to the apostles and the apostles gave truth to the world. How hard is that to understand? Read all of the 17th Chapter of John.

You mean the Bible tells us so?

Bishop S. C. Johnson used to say "don't waste your shoe leather going to hear a false prophet save your shoe leather. Don't pay to go to Hell go free."
Every preacher that does nOT preach Jesus is God and Acts 2:38 is a false prophet.

[Jack Shephard]

You mean the Bible tells us so?

Bishop S. C. Johnson used to say "don't waste your shoe leather going to hear a false prophet save your shoe leather. Don't pay to go to Hell go free."
Every preacher that does nOT preach Jesus is God and Acts 2:38 is a false prophet.

Nice!

Elder I disagree. Being a false prophet is alot different than preaching a different doctrine. Some people are called false prophets cause a prophecy did not come to pass. It could have been well meaning but incorrect. True or real false prophets are people that knowingly lead people astray. I have given prophecy that came to pass and some that didn't does that mean I am a false prophet? NO. It could mean a couple of things. Missing it or it not being received in faith. I would be careful to call people false prophets.

[Esther]

Esther these people came out of the UPC.
Do you go to Kilgore's church or did you?

I did. Do you know me?

Or do you go there now?

[ManOfWord]

I'd be very careful messing with God's kids. Those who have given themselves to Him to the best of their ability. None of us have perfect understanding and God says that there are some things that are a top priority to Him: Loving Him with all our heart soul mind and strength. Loving our neighbor as ourself.

These belong to Him and the Bible takes a dim view of those who do not treat them properly. Mk. 9:42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.

The one who is in danger here is not we who believe that those who place their lives in His hands belong to Him, it is those who take them OUT of His hands and place them in hell, which is exactly what you do with no remorse. Blessed are the merciful. You should not be so free with your "sufuric" comments toward those who belong to Him. :D

[Steve Epley]

Nice!

Elder I disagree. Being a false prophet is alot different than preaching a different doctrine. Some people are called false prophets cause a prophecy did not come to pass. It could have been well meaning but incorrect. True or real false prophets are people that knowingly lead people astray. I have given prophecy that came to pass and some that didn't does that mean I am a false prophet? NO. It could mean a couple of things. Missing it or it not being received in faith. I would be careful to call people false prophets.
I agree to the part yes you can preach Acts 2:38 and be a false prophet. But you cannot be a true prophet and not preach Acts 2:38.:reaction

[Brother Price]

You mean the Bible tells us so?

Bishop S. C. Johnson used to say "don't waste your shoe leather going to hear a false prophet save your shoe leather. Don't pay to go to Hell go free."
Every preacher that does nOT preach Jesus is God and Acts 2:38 is a false prophet.
Funny. Most men I know preach the Gospel. Guess that makes me a false prophet. I do not preach Acts 2:38, but the Gospel. Last time I check my Bible, that is what we have been called to preach.

[Light]

Funny. Most men I know preach the Gospel. Guess that makes me a false prophet. I do not preach Acts 2:38, but the Gospel. Last time I check my Bible, that is what we have been called to preach.
Last time I checked you were on one side of the fence now you are on the other.
You know every time the wind blows you change what you believe. God doesn't call people to preach who preach false doctrine.

[Brother Price]

I thought God called us to preach the Gospel, not doctrine. Yeesh, but then again, folks who are stuck in their religion want to preach doctrine, not the Gospel.

[Light]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light

Do you go to Kilgore's church or did you?


I did. Do you know me?

The reason I ask is one can know more of what a man believes when you hear from his people. When a man stands at general conference he usually tells people what they want to hear right out of the manual. To really know the truth about what he teaches listen to his people.

[Truthseeker]

I thought God called us to preach the Gospel, not doctrine. Yeesh, but then again, folks who are stuck in their religion want to preach doctrine, not the Gospel.

2 John 9

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
KJV


Rom 6:17-18

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
KJV



Doctrine sounds mighty important.

[Esther]

Quote:




The reason I ask is one can know more of what a man believes when you hear from his people. When a man stands at general conference he usually tells people what they want to hear right out of the manual. To really know the truth about what he teaches listen to his people.

Don't go by me on what my pastor believes or teaches. The Bible says seek out your OWN salvation with fear and trembling. I have to answer for myself. I don't agree 100% with any person. I don't think that makes me unique either. :)

[Brother Price]

2 John 9

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
KJV


Rom 6:17-18

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
KJV



Doctrine sounds mighty important.
Teach doctrine... yes. Preach the Gospel... yes.

[ChristopherHall]

So I want an answer....did God send William Tyndale to Hell?

Yes, no, or leaving the judgment to God?

Was there a an Apostolic church in Tyndale's day? Who were they?

Is there a distinctly Apostolic Bible translation?

Explain why God would use Hell bound infidels to preserve, translate, and propagate His Word.

Should we use a translation translated by Trinitarians in honor of the Trinitarian "King James"?

[Light]

So I want an answer....did God send William Tyndale to Hell?
Yes, no, or leaving the judgment to God?

Was there a an Apostolic church in Tyndale's day? Who were they?

Is there a distinctly Apostolic Bible translation?

Explain why God would use Hell bound infidels to preserve, translate, and propagate His Word.

Should we use a translation translated by Trinitarians in honor of the Trinitarian "King James"?

No God didn't send him to hell, people chose to go there because they do not obey the plan of salvation.

The rest of your post is foolishness.

[ChristopherHall]

No God didn't send him to hell, people chose to go there because they do not obey the plan of salvation.

William Tyndale's understanding of truth was clouded with tradition. However, he understood the truths of repentance, the necessity of baptism (though he didn't understand the details as we have understood them), and we have little knowledge of his spiritual experiences with the Holy Ghost in prayer. Therefore I feel it best not to make a judgment on the man's salvation.

The rest of your post is foolishness.

So you trust these Hell bound Trinitarians to translate the Bible you use? That's not a foolish question. If these men were indeed Hell bound and had no chance at salvation I can't trust the King James Bible because such men would be prone to error and deception. According to your reasoning, the King James Bible, and any Bible translated by those who's eyes are blinded by error, is potentially a poisoned spring. After all Jesus said,

Matthew 7:17
"Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit."

Do you mean to tell me corrupt men void of all truth and salvation brought forth a Bible translation that can be trusted?????

If we are the only ones who have tasted of salvation and the light of revelation we need a distinctly Apostolic translation of the Scriptures for the Bible we currently have can't be trusted. The beautiful heritage of the King James Bible is a farce of blinded men and all who died to preserve the Bible's majesty and ensure it's propagation in English have died in a fool's errand.

How do you interpret this text?

Luke 12:47-48
47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

I believe that for the sake of continuity and faithful trust of Scripture we better serve the Apostolic Truth by allowing God to be the final judge of these men's salvation. We should neither affirm the idea of their salvation neither condemn them to Hell. Allow God alone to be their judge. Our focus should be on the fullness of God's revealed truth...the Gospel of Jesus Christ as preached and practiced by the Apostles, exemplified in Acts 2:38.

We are the beneficiaries of the Reformation and Biblical scholarship. We are the Revival the Church had been praying for as it languished in thousands of years of tradition. We are presently the culmination of what all of Christian history has been pressing toward. This is the "Latter Rain".

Deuteronomy 11:14
"That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil."

Acts 2:17
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Step by step Jesus restored his bride from Hell's Catholic apostasy, the gates of Hell did no prevail!

Isaiah 28:10
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

For the:

Lutheran Church - AD 1517: Saw - Justification by faith...

Presbyterian Church - Ad 1536: Saw - Communion as a Memorial...

Congregational Church - AD 1580: Saw - Separation of Church and State...

Baptist Church - AD 1609: Saw - Water Baptism by Immersion...

Methodist Church - AD 1739: Saw - Personal Holiness...

Christian Church - AD 1820: Saw - Baptism for Remission of Sins...

Trinitarian Pentecostalism - AD 1900: Saw - Baptism of the Holy Ghost - Evidence: Speaking with Tongues as in Acts chapter 2 on the day of Pentecost...

AD 1914 Invasion of Apostles Doctrine from 33 A.D.! - The revelation of God in Christ (ONENESS), and the truth of baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ by immersion for the remission of sins!!!

[Sept5SavedTeen]

So I want an answer....did God send William Tyndale to Hell?

Yes, no, or leaving the judgment to God?

Was there a an Apostolic church in Tyndale's day? Who were they?

Is there a distinctly Apostolic Bible translation?

Explain why God would use Hell bound infidels to preserve, translate, and propagate His Word.

Should we use a translation translated by Trinitarians in honor of the Trinitarian "King James"?

Oh how these questions are being avoided...

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[ChristopherHall]

Oh how these questions are being avoided...

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

When I see an Apostolic condemn all comers to Hell using a King James Bible I can think of only one word...ungrateful. They hate and condemn the very heritage of the Bible translation they love and cherish. The Jehovah's Witnesses used the same logic in their condemnation of all Christians before them, but they had the guts to produce their own translation. That's where this logic leads if consistently followed.